Liberals 41 NDP 44

That would have been the result if the so called "Greens" had confined themselves to supporting STV and stayed out of this election.

In 8 ridings that the Gordo and his gang won the NDP + green vote was greater than the Liberal.

Hope you green A###***holes like farmed salmon, covered with oil slicks from drilling blowouts and tankers, and double your power rate to cook them.

The list of true greenies with real environmental cred's that supported the NDP was endless but we never heard about them at Canwest Global.

What part of Alexandra Morton's quote "The salmon will not survive another Liberal term" didn't the Greenies get. And this was from a published peer reviewed scientist working in the field not like the rest of the self styled "Green pretenders. Never heard that at Canwest Global.

The first task in rebuilding the left is as the American's did, eradicate the NOT "Green" party from the Canadian electoral scene, leaving it piled on the dung heap of Canadian politics and left to rot in its own irresponsible puerile rhetoric.

It is extremely difficult

It is extremely difficult for a centre-left party to win in a province that is centre-right and with a media that is as right-wing and as consolidated as the media is in BC. Overt media bias gave a 3-4 % advantage to the BC Liberals.

The NDP made mistakes: most notably the incredibly crass "axe the tax" campaign which seemed like a stroke of genius when oil prices were sky-high but demoralized many young and progressive voters who chose not to vote for the NDP and ultimately not vote at all.

The thing that depresses me most about this election is not another 4 years of a government that is ultimately bad for democracy - in every sense of the word - it is the pathetic voter turn-out and the bias of the media.

Irresponsible Campaign Coverage

While Tyee and the Straight ran lots of articles on Gordo's failings in a vain effort to fight Canwest Global's power, they failed utterly in what should have been the main election issue. The $50 billion in probable IPP loses was never investigated or reported on by somebody with the cred's of Will McMartin.

I tried at

http://publicpowerissues.blogspot.com/

but nobody would pick up the theme.

The NDP should have been shouting back McMartin's stats and the IPP losses every time the Libs brought up their economic creds and the NDP record yet Jerry Scott refused to go there. Gordo has no business experience whatsoever yet the NDP let him get away with that. When he did work for a developer he was their political guy and had nothing to do with the core of the business.

Idiots managed that campaign.

That said Canadians vote on image and Carol James has a oh so nice mom type image that will lose every election every time. Carol Taylor, or Larry Campbell had they been NDP leaders would have wiped the floor with the Gordo.

Seth

"Carol Taylor, or Larry Campbell had they been NDP leaders"

But they aren't NDPers.

Personally, I think Adrian

Personally, I think Adrian Dix's comments post election are the 'tell'. 'The Gary Doer government' (NDP Manitoba) lost consecutive elections and now has won 3'.

I know my own group 'gamed' this out--if its the economy--than see how Campbell does with a troublesome one. Let the numbers come out--BC Rail---etc.

Let him have his Olympics--its his party's management.

NDP insiders are hoping for 55 seats in 2013.

What advantage would Carole James have with a 1 or 2 seat majority-afterall its only BC Liberals and BC NDP. The BC Conservatives are already asking themselves why not a full slate. You don't get rid of a leader who grows popular vote AND seat base. You get rid of a leader who lost when they ought to have won. Didn't the regular media and regular pollsters say that Campbell was 10-15 point ahead--when the premium pollsters called it close--well Gordon Campbell underperformed and voter turnout and democracy tanked---despite the win.

Carole James lost the battle but will likely win the war.

Hanni will be replaced--the BC Conservatives will grow stronger---and Campbell baggage will come out--particularly if Wally Oppal loses---the courts will spring to BC Rail in a New York second to reclaim credibility----Campbell and Vancouver will get their Olympics---but the price will hurt the party. If he stays he is a lame duck--What? Attorney General through this?

On balance--I would rather be Carole James and the BC NDP than the BC Liberals---this opinion will become more and more clear as each passing month goes by.

Voter turnout??-----this is going to be a very short lived party---there is a larger group--not just NDP that will be barking at the door. 50% turnout means less and less credibility.

The more a government's legitimacy depends on the fact that they control the guns (police)---the less credible they are. The value of the 'franchise' drops commensurately with all of the institutions--media etc.

Something will have to give---who's first to sacrifice--Wally?

Campbell does not have the political capital to move on offshore oil and gas--billions in revenue there---he gets his crown but as a Liberal--BC Conservatives will go to John Cummins--Chris Delaney et al.

Do you really believe that Colin Hansen or Rich Coleman are truly happy?

canwest global

Will likely be bankrupt. Maybe a real news organization will take its place and Gordo (Harpo) and there crime families will lose that huge advantage.

How will 2013 Gordo spin double the power rates from 100 billion or so in IPP purchases at 12 cents a kwh when the spot price remains in the 2 cent a kwh range and everybody else is buying Nukes and southwest desert solar in the 2 cent range.

No doubt Jerry Scott would find a way to screw that up too.

Can't get no satisfaction: Round Two

In this election the Green vote percent went down and likely only very steadfast GP supporters voted Green -others took their vote to the NDP or the BC Liberals. I think GC played the 'enviros" off against each other like a violin virtuoso. I think the NDP negative response to the carbon tax was wrong..."fix the tax" rather than "axe the tax" would have allowed them to make the Leadership argument that the BC Liberal plan, hatched in secrecy, was flawed, but yes, carbon taxes together with cap & trade has got to be part of the climate change solution..and that they would consult widely with others on this issue, including First Nations, all levels of local government, and the BC Green Party, etc.

For your readers info, I wrote several letters to Jane Sterk, asking that she consider withdrawing candidates in key ridings, and at the very least in Vancouver-Point Grey. Her response was that the Green Party will not be withdrawing any candidates as it believes in preserving the right of citizens to vote Green...so not one candidate was withdrawn. As I understand Alexandra Morton got essentially the same response. IMO the members of both the BC Green Party and ND Party should have compelled their leaders to sit down and forge, even a limited electoral accord well before the election. ...it never happened...and the Leaders themselves being under no significant pressure to do so...did not get that ball rolling. Look to internal party politics to explain that failure to act, info to which I am not privy to. I also think the NDP media campaign could have offered more inducements to "green-voters" and the "non-voters" earlier on in the campaign...nonetheless, the economy/jobs/business was the dominant issue for most voters IMO. In the final analysis, the Green Party hardliners and the Green Party itself are not going away...they will continue to be part of the BC/Canada electoral scene...and no amount of ranting in frustration at them will dispel that reality. However nothing prevents the NDP from putting together a better green-economy message, and to avoid the false message that economy is more or less important than the environment, or vice versa....they are a unity. But you're right Seth, those who disengaged and did not vote, and those who voted Green thereby allowing the BC Liberals to win their majority, need to ask themselves the vital question as supposed Greenies: will the "environment" and "green agenda" be advanced/protected under the BC Liberal government or would have the NDP been the better choice for government?

They could have won....

...with a different leader but mostly they needed to get rid of Gerry Scott {chief NDP strategist}.
He ran a terrible campaign that could not capitalize on all the Liberal scandal's or their devastating plans regarding B C Hydro and the IPP "run of rivers". We are literally being sold down the river.

Carole needed to come out "swingin" but held back-probably on the advice of Gerry Scott-and didn't score when she had opportunities handed to her.

Doesn't matter what will happen in four more years.
The environment, the rivers, the animals, the wild salmon do not have four more years.
They will not be able to withstand the onslaught from the Liberals and their greedy corporate friends.

Say goodbye to all we have loved about B. C.

It was a mistake to

It was a mistake to concentrate attacks on personalities. The name "Campbell" was used and included in every sentence uttered, which was a dead end and hopeless to succeed.

It is not Campbell, or the BCLib party, but the screwball economic theory being taught in our and the world's universities that uses fraudulent figures, statistics and math to ruin humanity and the Earth, used by all politicians to legalize the biggest crime wave in human history.

But nobody can penetrate the steel wall that protects the screwballers who teach and preach this fraud.

Until this criminal theory is questioned and wiped out, there's no hope for any improvement. We either knock off all ideologies and turn to physical realities to govern our lives, or kiss our asses goodbye.

Many people, especially young, have told me :"What's the point in voting for another crook?" And that's because all politicians are hooked to the same criminal system, preaching "trade" and "competitiveness", while offering a few Band Aids for compound fractures caused by self destructive economic theories.

Ed Deak.

Our toady press

Right on, Seth - except that unlike the Americans, there was NO general public awareness here of the "Nader effect" that the Greens would wield in this election.

The Naderites role in ensuring the Bush wins was well reported in the US press, and that awareness later contributed to Obama's huge success.

Our neocon Press conveniently ignored this aspect of the Green's support of Campbell and his Gas tax, and I doubt if they will give that issue much coverage at this time either.

NDP whining...

I voted NDP. But, please, stop all the whining about how the Greens "cost" the NDP and how they should have voted strategically to defeat the Liberals.

The NDP needed to toss the the Greens a bone. How about support for STV or ANY alternate system that enables marginal parties to gain a seat at the table. So long as the NDP knee-caps any chances the Greens might have of being legitimized, why would the Greens want to play ball with the NDP?

Give the Greens a seat at the table, and I'm sure post election minority coalitions against the Liberals will be a possibility - the Red-Green coalition worked quite well in Germany.

Recession drives BC voters to the right

I believe Will McMartin discussed the 1983 election, in which Bill Bennett won re-election despite having presided over the worst recession since WWII. The NDP, including its chief strategist Yvonne Cocke, were shocked by that outcome. They had expected to win.

Last fall the stock market collapse favoured liberal Democrat Barack Obama, who just weeks earlier had been trailing Republicans McCain and Palin in the polls. But in Canada it had the reverse impact, helping Conservative incumbent Stephen Harper. Nowhere was that more clear than in BC, where Harper gained ground at the direct expense of the NDP, who lost one seat and three percentage points in popular vote.

So, the presumption that the recession should have helped the NDP goes counter to actual experience. It was actually a big plus for the BC Liberals, and the NDP would have had to come up with some imaginative, high-visibility counter moves to effectively blunt that tendency. In the event, the party chose to follow its usual strategy for handling negative perceptions, ignore them and hope they go away.

In 1983 the NDP was way

In 1983 the NDP was way ahead in the polls, when Barrett and his wife were caught in a scrum while walking on a country road and Barrett said to the cameras: "The restraint is over".

I said to my wife: "That's it. He just killed his chances!"

The next day his numbers went down like a rock.

Soon after the elections Bennett fired thousands of workers, then rehired many them, as contractors, at double their former wages, including one of my neighbours.

Ed Deak.

Excellent Point....

"It was a mistake to concentrate attacks on personalities. The name "Campbell" was used and included in every sentence uttered, which was a dead end and hopeless to succeed."

It failed in 2005 and it failed again last night. But I wonder if the Faithful can realise this error?

I doubt it.

This commentary from the Globe and Mail sums things up well:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090513.WBSteele20090513113813/WBStory/WBSteele

Globe and Mail

There was a comment below the article linked above from a "Walter K" in Victoria. I thought it was excellent and am reposting it here :

"The Gordon Campbell vote can also be looked upon as a desperate attempt to hold on to unrealistic gains and benefits from the last several years of frenzied economic activity. There is genuine fear, that heavily invested and mortgaged high real estate values which propelled the economic momentum in B.C will drop further. Gordon Campbell is seen as a potential saviour by some interest groups to provide a buffer in preventing this from occurring by instilling confidence in the illusion of a strong economy. If B.C export markets don't pick up soon and if new real estate buyers cannot be found to pay the artificially inflated real estate prices, huge losses will occur for those who gambled on perpetual increases or at least hoping for a halt to continued price decline. Campbell likes to take credit for the good economic years that were really reflective of an overall positive global economy that had nothing to do with him. During this time the Liberals spent billions and put the province on the hook for more debt in the belief that the goods times will roll on. We shall see how Campbell rolls with the punches now. He can't make offshore customers buy our commodity products nor can he make Albertans and others buy over inflated real estate to keep this place alive. Campbell saved nothing for a rainy day! B.C has just about run out of parachutes and the few remaining ones will be delegated to a select bunch. Unfortunately, more social programs will be cut affecting the marginalised in our society and more quality job losses will follow with no resources or plan implemented to help those in need."

Its hard to top the Fast Ferries

Its hard to top the Fast Ferries. The Convention Center would have to be an architectural failure, a building that did not meet its design goals so much that it would have to be dragged off its site or demolished because no one could use it and no one wanted it. You'd have to be so arrogant and committed to your design that you'd have built three of the stupid things on an assembly line you declared was going to be a giant new export industry for BC where you were going to supply the world with Convention Centers, all built like this, one after the other, plopping them onto the landscape so that one after the other, they could be condemned and dragged off. Plus, you'd have to have lost a billion dollars on it. No wonder the NDP message that the Liberals had topped them failed to swing the election. You people think you just didn't appoint the right commander or something to get that message across. Its laughable.

I think the "axe the tax" should be compared to the NDP taking a stand against abortion. Why not send the young women back to the coat hanger killers in the back alleys if you can pick up a few votes in rural areas? Why not? Because the party would fall apart if a tactic like this was tried. Because you know it wouldn't pay off in votes.

But the NDP pursued the "axe the tax" campaign with James trumpeting removing that tax from any rooftop she could find - Greenspan announced one day an economic tsunami greater than anthing anyone had ever seen was emanating from the US to engulf the world, and there's Carole James, we've got to get rid of that 3 cent a liter tax now, that's the way to deal with this. I don't feel qualified to judge whether the axe the tax paid off in votes for the NDP or not, but the party earned my open hostility in spades when it pursued this, as I've been concerned about climate change for more than twenty years. When Corky Evans rose in the Legislature to reply to the Liberal Throne Speech where Campbell first announced he was going to do something about climate, he dedicated his speech to me, so I paid attention. Corky was suspicious that the Liberals weren't sincere, that they weren't going to actually follow through and do what they said. He said he and the NDP were ready to go to work on this one, that it would take both sides in this polarized province to make climate policy work, and god help us, oh yes it was god help us Mr Speaker, if the Liberals weren't sincere it was the biggest lie that had ever been uttered in that building. OK, it was Corky. But the fact is, the Liberal policy was judged the most aggressive in North America when enacted by independent observers, and all the NDP has done is play games for votes as if there wasn't an urgent problem that is undermining every other interest the party says it has, that must be faced, and dealt with by us, people who live now.

That the NDP could have a policy like that, it says a lot about what people in that party care about.

David Lewis

Convention centres across North America have been promoted and promoted economic saviours for cities and yet the word is they're almost all white elephants because there's not enough big conventions to support them. Yet somehow we in BC think ours will be different.

"I think the "axe the tax" should be compared to the NDP taking a stand against abortion."

Reality and reason mean nothing to you I guess.

Populism

Appealing to a 2 cent a litre tax on gasoline is about as crass a from a form of populism as one can get, especially when Gerry Scott comes up with the brilliant idea of raising the price of beer in cold beer and wine stores as a payoff to Ken Shields. It is doubly idiotic when one considers that various taxes already make up about half the price of gasoline.

Live learn? The Liberals had better hope not. Besides, as the US economy leads to a sustained recovery in BC, the Liberals can take credit for it.

Further to Frank on convention centres...

Convention centres are just another example of economic bubbles; every damned community wants to build one. And then what? If every town has one (seemingly every community has some variant or another already), why would any organization want to hold its convention in my community. So now we have Nanaimo competing with Kamloops, competing with Kelowna, competing with...

Sheer nonsense.

convention centres are 1980

About convention centres, let's get with the new century and start using teleconferencing!

Too bad if the delegates do not get a chance to get drunk on free booze, at least we cut out a lot of pollution when they do not have to travel.

go "middle class"

Yes, quit mentioning the enemy by name, best to not give him that credit even.

Another item is: Quit addresssing the potential voters as if they were working families, because even the poorest family has aspirations to be anything but working class!
That may be wishfull thinking on their part, but it is a fact never the less!

Take a lesson from the winner and assume that your prospect is middle-class (even the dishwasher type prefers that distinction)

It does not have to make sense to the egghead that orchestrates your campaign, just go with what works!

The media

Horgan may be acused of sour grapes in pointing out the difficulties the NDP faces because of the Canwest media monopoly, but I think his point is valid.

The unending bias doesn't account for 46% of the vote, but I think it is arguable that it does acoount for at least 4 or 5% of the vote, and that was all it took for Campbell to win again this time.

I am not active in party politics, and don't belong to a party, although I did send a couple of hundred dollars to the NDP this time because I was so offended by my tax dollars being used for those sub rosa "BC, the best place on earth" Liberal campaign ads that I wanted to try and make it fairer.

Here is a copy of an e-mail I sent to Vaughn Palmer after the election expressing my opinion about the impact of the media bias.

You(Palmer) write:

[The polls, even those that put the New Democratic Party in a competitive position...]

By that I assume you mean the only honest polls. Same old, same old again this election. The Mustel and Kyle Braid version of Ipsos come out with their phony polls, and commentary, (that Braid really is a piece of work isn't he) showing the Libs with large leads, and the NDP not really competitive, which you, and your Canwest cronies give a loud voice to. Then as the election draws near, the spread magically narrows, but of course, not close enough to suggest the NDP will actually win. This time around it was Mustel from 17- to 9 by May 7, and Braid to 8, as of May 9. Of course it turns out the Angus Reid poll was right all along.

But I've got to give it to you, it seems to work. I suspect the strategy probably did account for 3 or 4 percent of the actual spread, which is what the Libs won by.

Congratulations.

David Lewis: Are you alright?

David Lewis
... You'd have to be so arrogant and committed to your design that you'd have built three of the stupid things on an assembly line you declared was going to be a giant new export industry for BC where you were going to supply the world with Convention Centers, all built like this, one after the other, plopping them onto the landscape so that one after the other, they could be condemned and dragged off. Plus, you'd have to have lost a billion dollars on it. ... Its laughable.

I think the "axe the tax" should be compared to the NDP taking a stand against abortion. ...

But the NDP pursued the "axe the tax" campaign with James trumpeting removing that tax from any rooftop she could find - Greenspan announced one day ... the party earned my open hostility in spades when it pursued this, as I've been concerned about climate change for more than twenty years. When Corky Evans rose in the Legislature to reply to the Liberal Throne Speech where Campbell first announced he was going to do something about climate, he dedicated his speech to me, so I paid attention. Corky was suspicious ... But the fact is, the Liberal policy was judged the most aggressive in North America when enacted by independent observers, and all the NDP has done is play games for votes ...

Something's laughable, alright. Are you seriously suggesting that Corky Evans made some speech in the Legislature specifically dedicated to you?

The good news is...

The NDP has more than 2 seats. And, the MLA representing my riding, as well as many other ridings, is NDP. As the provincial government with it's diktat (mandate) collapses along with it's corporate criminal overseers, let's join together in what may be great challenges -- in other words, even though we don't need them, let them down easy anyways.

David Lewis: Mayor of Gold River?

David Lewis, are you the former Mayor of Gold River? A person using that name has signed an online petition supporting open-net salmon farms and explicitly condemning people who object to those farms. He also contributed pieces to Kevin Grandia's Voteforenvironment.ca website containing identical blasts at Carole James and Jack Layton to those you have posted here.

Gaming the election co-operatively: A Retrospective Look

Game theory suggests ample rewards for those that cooperate over those that compete. Lets play "just suppose" - suppose, earlier on, the BC Greens and the BC NDP had decide to cooperate and play this election like "onside" teamplayers on the same side of the "game" so as to maximize optimal results for both the economy and the environment - rather than compete and try to maximize results for each of their respective parties, then there is no doubt that the BC Liberals would not have won the following 10 seats in this May 09 election:

Burnaby Similkameen ( NDP 5460 votes/ GRN 1573 votes);
Burnaby- Lougheed (NDP 7712, GRN 1154);
Comox Valley (NDP 11593; GRN 2338);
Kamloops-North Thompson ( NDP 8792, GRN 1309);
Oak Bay-Gordon Head (NDP 8519, GRN 1766);
Parksville-Qualicum (NDP 7350, GRN 1923)
Penticton (NDP 6516, GRN 3252);
Vancouver-Fairview (NDP 6964; GRN 1678)
Vernon-Monashee (NDP 6836, GRN 3566)

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, if they had taken my one suggestion to at least co-operate in Vancouver-Point Grey, Mr. Campbell would have been defeated.

Vancouver-Point Grey (NDP 6998; GRN 1581)

Game theory show creative co-operators will win handily over those who compete to pursue narrow self -interest.

Hubris, self-deception,adherence to competitive self-interested party politics, and failure to get the message of game theory - is the reason why, IMO, we are where we are - for the second election now. The folks within both the NDP and Greens who do not understand this key game theory message and who control those parties will not change their politically self-interested tune, and perhaps the only solution, is for large numbers of people who understand this concept to join each of those respective parties and "game" the next election co-operatively...while "powering down" those who just don't get it.

NDP Campaign

While the "Take Back our BC" campaign message had some effect, the NDP should have taken it one step further with a campaign based on "time for a change".

You can say that the NDP did not make any ground in this election, however the same is true for Gordon Campbell and the BC Liberals. Despite Gordon Campbell having the media, large corporations and probably double the budget for campaign advertising on their side, they failed to make any real gain.

It's a poor relection on Gordon Campbell's leadership - perhaps he should be replaced.

We seem to be stuck in a

We seem to be stuck in a political paradox: the more people get turned off from politics and politicians and don't vote, the more influence 'BIG MONEY' from corporations and the wealthy elite have in controlling our political apparatus. This in turn alienates the average voter even more, turning off even more people from voting, resulting in even more and more influence from people and interests groups that benefit from the status quo. Where will it end?

I believe our 'democracy' is heading for a crisis (if we are not already in one now)due to increasing imbalance in who influences policy in government.
Will we just drift into a dictatorship, like a frog drifts into unconsciousness and ultimately death when the water it is submerged into goes from warm to boiling hot?

Like many commentators here, a part of me is completely cynical and jaded about the political system we live under. A part of me says "This is the last time I will ever vote", or "I'm never voting NDP again in my life." However, I'm astute enough to know that that is exactly what the powers that be WANT. APATHY!

Perhaps the NDP and Green Party should both be dissolved and the best aspects of there policy platforms combined to form a new Progressive Party in BC.

What green voters must realize is that economic equality, I believe, is a PREREQUISITE to a sustainable future. Only when decisions on the stewardship of the ecology is in the hands of the people (democratic control), will we ever be able to act in the interests of an ecologically sustainable future.

For the record, I voted NDP and for the STV.

Perhaps Mr Lewis

Not one in 2000 and one in 2008 but eight fast ferry fiascos or four convention centre cost overruns every year for the next forty years once the pirates get their obscene power stations running.

Perhaps when their power rates double, unemployment gets into the high teens, and still Campbell passes out corporate welfare perhaps then the 50% nitwits that didn't vote will get their payday.

I move to double the taxation on the non voter.

The NDP lost because

voters recognized that the party's campaign promises could not be kept without raising taxes.

The NDP budget numbers were clearly not reasonable and the Liberals' numbers are also suspect. However, people who pay taxes (not to quote B. Bennett) know the Liberals would sooner cut services than increase taxes.

Wrong reallife

The NDP lost because green voters who should have known better were taken in by a few environmental shills; the NDP lost because this is a sexist society and many men refused to support a woman for premier; the NDP lost because the people have been lied to so often in the last 8 years they no longer have the ability to tell the truth.

The government in power lied about its budget - the NDP can't be accused of lying because it relies upon the only (imaginary) statistics available.

In the end we have the worst of both worlds because the Liberals will cut services and increase taxes, licenses and fees.

That's the truth as I see it - BC voters, a lot of them, are stupid red necks who'd rather have a lying crook for a leader than a strong, competent truth telling woman.

And that's truly sad.

Peter Dimitrov...

That's a bit of a flawed analysis. A third party, like the Liberals pre-1991, always attracts protest votes. And when Green voters were recently asked by Mustel as to their second choice preference:

http://www.mustelgroup.com/pdf/20090507.pdf

Boy was that popular vote spread ever close, eh? ~4%, who would have thunk? Looks like Angus Reid Strategies was right.

OTOH, the abysmal 50% turnout also could have meant that combined Lib supporters/Gordo haters may have stayed home and that the other guys were equally right.

That's what also happened in 2005, with Lib voters staying home according to a UBC voter migration model for 2005.

http://strategy.sauder.ubc.ca/antweiler/votermigration/

Another interesting election footnote is that the NDP now has 27 "safe seats" but the Libs have 37 "safe" seats, that is, winning these seats by a margin in excess of 10%.

Even with the 4% popular vote spread, the Libs need to only win 6 of the remaining 21 close ridings for a majority, while the NDP needs to win 16 in 2013. That's still a tall order.[courtesy to BCI]

At least both Carole and Gordo will be replaced by 2013.

Mustel

"And when Green voters were recently asked by Mustel"

Of course from now on people will giggle when they hear the word "Mustel" what with its 20% plus or minus.

Redefine the New Democratic Party.

The party executive should have started 8 years ago. Then Carole would not have been the lone forward out there trying to win the game all by herself. The party owes Carole James big time, if it were not for her individual effort, the NDP would be political dust.

BC Liberal talking point: The NDP drove the economy into the ground.

This talking point actually is not true.
The NDP executive failed as an organized group to redefine the party at that critical time.

Where are the Dave Barrett's of the party, who could so eloquently handle talking points like that.

Bill Tieleman flies the banner on the Bill Good show, but that's two against one, and besides you lose if you take on the person who controls the mike. But however, moving the party to the left i feel is wrong. Making the party more relevant makes sense to me.

The party needs desperately to redefine itself now, not in 4 years just before the next election.

G West...

Wrong on that count.

Socred premier Rita Johnston in 1991 and now Carole James both came/come across as being "over their head"... not premier/leadership material.

They are the "Bob Skellys" of the political world.

OTOH, Surrey Mayor Dianne Watts looks like the odds on fave to replace Gordo prior to 2013. And she has a totally different image/persona/track record from Johnston/James.

That's why she took 86% in last Novermber's Surrey mayoral race. Very competent, very likeable and a helluva vote getter.

I'd wager that if she was the Lib's leader in this election, the Libs would have taken 50% - 55% of the popular vote. She's also held in high regard by most on the centre-left.

El Gordo was a REAL drag on the Lib popular vote figure in the last two elections.

"They're gonna say bad things about me"

So said Obama during his campaign, warning his supporters, very publicly, that the negatives were gonna come from the opposing camp. For the most part, the bad things they said were ignored; but not all. There were a number of precisional rebuttals that destroyed the opposition at the end. Words like knives, but not the knives themselves.
Smarter, not meaner. It's a very different style of running a campaign but something that appears to have totally ignored by our guys at HQ. Gerry's gotta go; Carol not necessarily unless she wants to stay stuck in old school campaigning which just do not work for progressives trying to get votes from the middle class, and those who aspire to it.
If we don't adapt we will continue to be irrelevant to the majority of voters in B.C.

Diane Watts won because only

Diane Watts won because only one 'no name' with no money that was not backed by business ran against her.

Its more fear and ignorance

As the media's message from tv, radio and print was for a strong BC vote Liberal. I don't think it has to much to do with the NDP or Carole but more who controls the message and the message pushed. And change and the NDP where no where in the message other than how they would bring you down. Its to bad because in order to have a democratic government you need a free press.
I don't know how bringing in mass amounts of immigrantion where services have already been drastically being cut and jobs are being lost at record numbers makes for a strong BC?
While small business is set to tumble and record number of immigrants are arriving while inflation shows it ugly head. And those from outside the city find their way into the city looking for jobs. As immigrants often without the desired skill level and education take at least 20 years to even pay for themselves if even then as they drive down wages. While creating increased poverty and despair while bringing down the middle class.
This is a crime waiting to happen as Vancouver's street remain a happening place for crime and gang violence.

where was labour?

Can I assume labour was purposefully muzzled? I hear Sinclair lamenting the results. I don't, however, recall labour making any concerted efforts to get out the vote? I'm not saying they didn't, I just couldn't detect any such action.

What's next?

I'm as disappointed as others in the election. The electorate's conservatism was on full display, keeping Campbell, turning down STV. As several posts have pointed out, the NDP needs to forge a strong message with wide appeal -- around which details can be embroidered. The NDP is never going to convince people that it can run the capitalist economy better than the Liberals. They can only hope that the right wing splits -- or becomes so currupt that people will want to try something new.

But that's the old strategy.

Dimitrov is right that part of a winning strategy would be merger with the greens. The new vision should incorporate Green ideas at the centre of the vision -- not heavily qualified proposals.

This means dropping some compromises with past policies -- ant-carbon tax, support for Gateway, unthinking promotion of "growth," and opposition to electoral reform. Based on my casual conversations with many greens, I believe more Greens are more at home with the NDP's social/economic biases than with those of the Liberals.

Finally, NDP must clarify its SOCIAL vision and policies. As one example, the NDP was wrong not to support the Canadian centre for Policy Alternatives targets for poverty reduction, apparently on grounds of "realism." The NDP has to recognise that the business community and most press will NEVER support NDP ideas.

Past NDP practices win elections every 20 years as "the least of evils."

British Columbians deserve something better.

GWest, so you believe the NDP lost because

"BC voters, a lot of them, are stupid red necks"

Or is it perhaps that not enough BC voters are slackers who depend on government handouts?

(OK, I agree this comment is just as ridiculous as your elitist statement.)

Anyone could win an election

With a monopoly media behind you influencing the message. Its a no brainier. You just got to have the cash to be able to pull it off or have them on board to do the Olympics, maybe. And that's fact not fiction the fiction is where the heavy handed promoting of a elected official comes in.
Even a quy like Campbell who stands for nothing good as its death, disease and poverty along with the fallen middle class. As hospital services, ambulances, police and schools are all been short changed by the heavy influx of immigrants who receive all the benefits without putting in to the system.
And Canwest is so bias that it did so many stories on Ministries with NDP while it fails to even notice kids are dying in this province. And if that isn't bias I don't know what is.

Looking for salvation.

Bill Tieleman who was head honcho of the NO side on BC STV, now is calling for a law that would fine eligible voters for not showing up to vote on election day, actually forcing people who for the most part don't care, vote in a electoral system , that don't work.

The Message Was Fear

Cuts and increased immigration, frozen minimum wage while costs rise. Sound like a strong plan during a recession when small business is set to buckle from the inflationary costs driven by high rents and there are no jobs. Immigrants create the jobs? Or immigrants take the jobs and cut into services that have been drastically cut? Do immigrants create carbon? Maybe they do can be one of the many small struggling business.

Just wasn't sure about this brilliant plan where a small percentage of the population benefits from the misery of others. As local broadcasters give their blessing to the fianacial genius of Mr. Campbell and his Liberals as if your hard up in good times whats it going to be like in bad?

I just can't wait to see the expression on Campbell's face when he gets caught and can't talk his way out of it and the media can't help.

House cleaning

Time for the NDP to clean house top to bottom and especially the back room boys who engineered the election joke.
I for one will be glad to see the back of Carol James head.

Reallife

It would be nice if you actually had the intellectual honesty to actually quote all of what I wrote (and believe) rather than taking a few words out of context to deliver a pointless and ad hominem jibe.

In fact, this is ALL of what I wrote, remember?

The NDP lost because green voters who should have known better were taken in by a few environmental shills; the NDP lost because this is a sexist society and many men refused to support a woman for premier; the NDP lost because the people have been lied to so often in the last 8 years they no longer have the ability to tell the truth.

The government in power lied about its budget - the NDP can't be accused of lying because it relies upon the only (imaginary) statistics available.

In the end we have the worst of both worlds because the Liberals will cut services and increase taxes, licenses and fees.

That's the truth as I see it - BC voters, a lot of them, are stupid red necks who'd rather have a lying crook for a leader than a strong, competent truth telling woman.

And that's truly sad.

Sexism and the Mass Media

There was a sexist bias against Carole James, just as there is a regional bias against Jack Layton. It showed up in all the polls over the past few years, a Liberal lead of twenty or more points among men, compared to a basically even split among women, sometimes a small NDP lead among females.

But the NDP campaign apparatchiks refused to do anything to counter either sentiment. Towards the end of the campaign, one news photo appeared showing James on horseback, and I recall some years ago seeing her climbing onto the running boards of a heavy truck cab. Too little. There needed to be about ten times that.

For Layton? He needs to be photographed canoeing on various rivers and streams, and kayaking on the ocean, hiking in the Rockies, and last but not least, going out duck hunting, shotgun in hand.

Many NDPers and others on the left will howl about CanWest Global. And well they should. But if these people are naive enough to believe that the CBC is not biased against them, they haven't been paying attention. In recent years, largely because of the rise of Reform, now the reunited Conservatives, the CBC has become more and more a Liberal broadcaster, not a public broadcaster. It's most obvious at the federal level, but their provincial coverage is also tilted towards the Liberals, its just milder in tone than some of the private media.

In fact, there's a couple of female radio voices on CBC who can barely read a news item about the NDP without their distaste and disrespect for any social democratic/labour politician or party coming through in their intonation.

And then there's their fawning treatment of even the most perfunctory appearances by Ujjal Dosanjh. When is the NDP going to deal with that whole problem?

G West wrote: the NDP lost

G West wrote:

the NDP lost because this is a sexist society and many men refused to support a woman for premier
---------------

Maybe some were upset with Ms. James affirmative action where men where not allowed to seek the nomination in vacant ridings?

I don't know if there was enough to effect the election but it did cost her some votes, how many, I do not know.

Oh cry for me, BC

This morning I felt that sick sense of bewilderment, I felt when the dumbass American voter reelected George Bush in 2004. It turns out they really didn't but that was another story. And if it wasn't for a man extraordinaire, the same neocons's would have won in 2008.

Despite all that history BC voters reelected another Neocon. The knowledge that voters in BC are just as stupid as the American counterpart fills me with a sense of despair. And Green's who should be the most aware turned out to be the worst. Soon we will start the paying the price and it will be high.

Oh cry for me, BC

Dan

That was a party resolution - not a James resolution.

I think you've mentioned it before and if you haven't others have.

Certainly the reaction of many men to an honest attempt to move towards some kind of gender equity is another example of how sexist and prejudiced Canadian and British Columbia really is.

But, in the end, as you know, Carole James wiped the floor with the mindless bigot Campbell in the debate; he answered not a single question in the whole affair and, in the end was reduced to sexist male babbling.

The facts, as it were, speak for themselves.

Pointless debate about the Green vote

All you sore losers who try to prove mathematically that an Orange-Green combination would have carried the day -- you ignore BC history.

For most of the past 50 years, there has been a semi-strong third party, which typically received 10%-15% of the vote. That 3rd party was the Liberals in the 50's, 60's, and 70's, until they replaced Social Credit in the 90's. Then the Greens rose as the third party.

Most third-party voters go that way because it is a convenient place for a protest vote. Someday, the 3rd party alternative may change -- but any Orange-Green coalition would not be electorally successful for long.

Either the NDP embraces overt Socialism, or it folds

Re the NDP's affirmative action re women canddates, this was the wrong time to do it. The proper time is during a time of comfortable strength, not when coming from behind is underway. Furthermore, for those who do not subscribe to the-end-justfies-the-means reasoning, this was clearly an un-democratic move.

Those who think a compromise between the Greens and the NDP is workable are dreaming in Technicolor. The Greens hold that economics rank far down the list of their priorities, and are uncaring of the fact that hungry people (or in our case today, frightened people) will always choose short-term self-interest over any environmental considerations.

OTOH, for the union-dominated NDP, environmental concerns are supported only when it is convenient. This was illustrated by the Harcourt vs Clark/Miller schism, and the abandonment of the Party by the forest worker unions in the '74 and '01 elections, and partly in this one.

On Vanouver Island, it appears that they've belatedly realised that the neocon forest policies they formerly supported have led only to ubsustainability and thus to job losses and so voted NDP, but in the North the recent mill closures are viewed as cyclical/temporary and not the sytstemic result of some 30 years of the progressive "deregulation" initiated by Bill Bennet.

As presently viewed by the Greens and the NDP, jobs and the environment cannnot co-exist as compatible goals, and so a workable coalition is very unlikely.

the biggest lie, Mr Speaker....

Corky is quite a speechmaker. He managed to slide the word "lie" into the speech I refer to, right in the Legislature, as he replied to the Throne Speech, referring to what the Campbell government was doing, and not get thrown out. The man doing the lying turned out to be Corky.

The speech given by Corky Evans I refer to is recorded in the Debates of the Legislative Assembly, 3rd Session, 38th Parliament. I have a DVD copy given to me by Corky's office, marked Broadcast Date March 6 2007, Subject: Debate on the Throne Speech, Requested by: Corky Evans. You can access these things online I hear, video and audio.

It is in this speech where Corky goes on about his suspicion that the Liberals weren't sincere when they made their Throne Speech announcement they were going to do something serious about climate. This is the speech I referred to in a comment above, that Corky dedicated to one of his constituents who Corky said had been waiting to see climate action coming out of the Legislature for some twenty years, i.e. me.

I reserved judgement at the time about what anyone was going to do: a surge in public awareness of the climate issue had suddenly appeared at that time and it seemed to me politicians were falling all over themselves trying to get in front to appear to be leading. I assumed nothing would come of any of it. I had seen too much in the past twenty years.

But I was mistaken. Action was forthcoming. It turned out that the Liberals did what they said they were going to do, and it was Corky and his party who did not live up to what Corky said in this speech.

I felt more betrayed by this than I did the time Glenn Clark branded environmentalists who dared to work outside BC on environmental issues of interest in and to BC as "enemies of BC". I had campaigned outside BC on issues of global concern, i.e. ozone depletion and climate change, with distinction, at one point finding myself introduced by Canada's Ambassador to the UN to what the chair of the House Standing Committee on Environment had called the "most profoundly disturbing environmental conference of human history", in recognition of my contribution, and here, in my home province, an NDP Premier had publicly branded me and anyone like me an "enemy of BC". The NDP position on the carbon tax hit me with more force, lower down.

Hence I suggest the NDP might also consider courting the rural anti abortion vote by standing for sending the young women back to the alleyways to be killed, then see how feminists feel when they come to them for support next election. Perhaps a feminist put into a position like that by the NDP might be able to explain, where people who care about climate haven't been able to, how an old climate campaigner like myself might be feeling as I listened over the last number of months to Carole James trumpeting her "axe the tax" line.

David's meme is on life-support

Dear David:

Direct taxation on CO2 emissions such as Campbell's "Carbon Tax", or other measures such as Cap and Trade, have little actual utility and/or chance of significant reduction of CO2 emissions.

Outside of the politicians and environment gurus - those whom you refer to when you describe: "politicians were falling all over themselves trying to get in front to appear to be leading"; There has been a significant and constantly growing number of people who have correcttly identified Carbon Taxation as a meme which owes its popularity only to its appearance that the supporter is DOING SOMETHING about CO2.

The reality is far different, since in this Carbon = energy dependant world, no nation is going to economically hobble itself through any realistic reduction in carbon-based fuels without a reasonable alternative at hand.

Rather than playing these silly games, if we were genuinely serious about switching over to clean energy, and if our politicians genuinely believed the CO2 threat was real, we would be investing big-time in R&D for viable alternative sources. Many others are opting for Nuclear.

However much I might admire your zeal, David, it's not my fault you didn't / haven't thought it through and persist in flogging your dying horse.

Driving me crazy

This drivel about the Greens is driving me crazy.

Look, the core reason for the Greens existing and for people like me wanting to vote for them is because we have certain priorities that we feel neither of the other mainstream parties is adequately addressing.

The sheer arrogance of the assumption, the sense of entitlement on the part of certain NDP supporters *cough* seth *cough* that Green votes are rightfully theirs, is of "Liberal" proportions!

You want the Green vote? Then the onus is on you to address Green priorities in a real and meaningful way. Just like any consituency, satisfy their demands ... or why the hell should they vote for you any more than any other party? This really isn't a new concept in politics.

But perhaps it is simply too difficult to reconcile Green interests and the interests of the traditional core NDP constituency.

Labour interests in BC naturally seek to maximise the creation and preservation of resource-based jobs, with environmental considerations not being of prime importance. In this they share more in common with the Libs than with the Greens, their differences in opinion having more to do with how to split the loot, rather than with how it was (ill-)gotten in the first place.

Perhaps this is a circle that simply cannot be squared.

I think it may be the case that both the NDP and the Liberals *need* the Greens to exist, as they may be structurally incapable of fully incorporating them and their interests into their own parties without alienating their existing core constituents.

Perhaps this is why even in Germany, where Greens and social democrats have successfully governed together, the need still exists for a separate Green party rather than just a green wing within the social democrats' ranks. This allows the Greens to continue working with the social democrats on certain issues without having to support idiocies such as the recent "wrecking bonus" that encouraged the destruction of perfectly good used vehicles in order to give the oversubsidised, over-producing auto industry a temporary boost.

NDP Campaign Evaluation

blame the media
blame the Green party
blame the economy
blame the enviros
blame the voters.

The problem

Is that half the population doesn't care about politics let alone a particular political party.

And its not because they can't decide, they don't even care about changing the system itself.

And a note about corruption, allowing people to go directly from politics into business (as seen in the list of Libs now part of run-of-river companies) is the final nail in the coffin. Politics is a road to better incomes, not public service.

The Status Quo

"The rich get richer..."

It is interesting to note

It is interesting to note that the old propaganda buzz, that the NDP is bad, because it is dominated by the unions, is still being repeated ad nauseum.

Which is a bunch of crap, shown by the figures of how much each party receives from individuals, businesses, and unions

But at least the unions are Canadians, who are living, working and spending here.

Yet nobody complains that the Reform/BCLib/Conservatives are dominated, and even owned by the multinational corporate mafia, some of the biggest crooks, with mile long conviction records all over the world, who receiving instant citizenship the minute they enter the country under NAFTA and WTO laws that overrule local decision making and all interests as long as they can strip Canada of resources, enriching themselves, while Canadians are losing every day .

Look at the criminal/fines records of some of the corporations welcomed in BC and Canada with open arms, then compare their actions with any union.

http://www.endgame.org/corpfines1.html

Ed Deak.

Winners and Losers in This Election

There are other winners and losers in this election that are worth noting.

Winners: 1.Citizen groups such as Save our Rivers, Save our Salmon, 2010 Watch, DERA and others. These groups have increased in knowledge, sophistication and commitment. Welcome to democratic action. We will need these people even more in the next four years. Social change does NOT arise from an election. It arises with social awareness and social action. Our job has just begun, and there's lots more to do.

2.David Beers & the Tyee, Bill Tieleman, Sean Holman & his Public Eye and others. These independent journalists have ignited and renewed real journalism. Like the above social activists, we will need them even more in the next four years. This too is the back bone of civic, engaged democracy. Even inspite of the occasional 'dictator' getting in the way.

Losers: 1.Campbell was only supported by 23% of the voting population (less than 50% voted, 46% of them for Campbell). That does not give him a 'mandate' or a 'dictatorship' unless we let him.

2.Suzuki Foundation, DeSmogBlog, Jim Hoggan: Whatever integrity used to lie in these groups is now lost. Coming out in favour of big business, big oil and gas, fish farms and river dams is simply appalling. It means some 'green' groups (not all I pray) may promote the 'concept' of change, but not the cold, hard, reality of booting out a bunch of financial opportunists. Do they really think the large monopolies are going to simply wake up one day and change their conduct? Not without immense citizen mobilization.

3. CanWestGlobal et al: the mainstream media, owned by two or three families in BC, proved its complete failure as the Fourth Estate.

The good news is that politicians and corporate execs come and go, but the citizens of BC are here to stay. We're not going anywhere, and we have a great deal of say in what others try and do with our province.

Quote:Losers: 1.Campbell was

Essentially legitimised by those who voted against STV, unfortunately.

David Lewis: Mayor of Gold River?

David Lewis
The speech given by Corky Evans I refer to is recorded in the Debates of the Legislative Assembly, 3rd Session, 38th Parliament. I have a DVD copy given to me by Corky's office, marked Broadcast Date March 6 2007, Subject: Debate on the Throne Speech, Requested by: Corky Evans. You can access these things online I hear, video and audio.

If I look up this speech, will I see a dedication to someone named David Lewis as you implied in a previous post?

Driving who crazy, KevinC?

KevinC
Labour interests in BC naturally seek to maximise the creation and preservation of resource-based jobs, with environmental considerations not being of prime importance. In this they share more in common with the Libs than with the Greens, their differences in opinion having more to do with how to split the loot, rather than with how it was (ill-)gotten in the first place.

Ever since university days I have always found that a large number of people who style themselves "green" tend to regard working people, especially unionized male workers in primary, manufacturing and construction industries as enemies. They caricature these workers as social dinosaurs and insist that these men are at least as responsible for any environmental damages done by mining, forestry and other industries as the corporations they work for.

"Greens" who take that view are naturally attracted to the Liberal Party, Dion's Green Shift, Campbell's carbon tax. In addition, the carbon tax gives urban greens a policy bauble they can adopt in order to express their contempt and derision, not just for blue-collar males, but for rural people.

As you well know, Kevin, when Harcourt formed government in the 1990s pollution regulations affecting pulp and paper mills were increased dramatically. The IWA as it was then and the two pulp unions did not object. But the corporate leadership was furious. They had to spend several hundred million dollars on additional pollution abatement equipment that added nothing to the bottom line or to shareholder value.

The forest company executive class made sure that the entire business community and the big commercial media took a hard line against the NDP, labelling them as bad for the economy, investment and jobs. The media, including the publicly owned CBC which needs commercial ad revenues nearly as much as Canwest Global, are still carrying out that messaging as of today!

You know all this Kevin, but it doesn't affect your supposedly green politics one bit, does it?

Jeffrey J: Better read Gary Mason's piece

[b]Jeffrey J.[/]b
2.Suzuki Foundation, DeSmogBlog, Jim Hoggan: Whatever integrity used to lie in these groups is now lost. Coming out in favour of big business, big oil and gas, fish farms and river dams is simply appalling. It means some 'green' groups (not all I pray) may promote the 'concept' of change, but not the cold, hard, reality of booting out a bunch of financial opportunists. Do they really think the large monopolies are going to simply wake up one day and change their conduct? Not without immense citizen mobilization.

Gary Mason's piece in today's Globe quotes Matt Horne of Pembina and Ian Bruce of DSF saying the election was an endorsement of the carbon tax, because the NDP lost.

During the federal election I found many NDPers recommending Grandia's Voteforenvironment.ca website as a good source of information and advice.

David Lewis: Is this the passage you have in mind?

http://www.leg.bc.ca/hansard/38th3rd/h70306a.htm#5810

I would like to dedicate this speech to a gentleman who lives in my constituency named David Lewis. David Lewis has been talking about climate change since before I was first elected in 1991. I remember David Lewis coming to meetings when we, government and citizens, were engaged in battles over the attempt to double the amount of provincial parkland from 6 percent to 12 percent.

There would be a whole bunch of people in the room. Some are for parks, some are against parks, and they're all arguing what the best thing to do with the land would be. David Lewis would say: "Excuse me. It doesn't make any difference. If you don't deal with climate change, you're going to have a park, and all the trees inside the park will die. Then who wins? Do the loggers win? Does the environmental community win or the recreationists win? No." He kept pounding the table and saying: "When are we going to deal with what science is telling us?"

Corky's speech identifies you only as a resident of his electoral district. What is your expertise in terms of the economics of climate change and the choices for pricing carbon? The reason I ask is simple. The economist at UBC who organized the petition urging Fin Min Carol Taylor to bring in a carbon tax specializes in labour economics, not environmental economics. So I am wondering what your own background in this field may be.

http://www.econ.ubc.ca/green/cv_2007.pdf

http://www.econ.ubc.ca/green/open_let.htm

How to bust the media's grip

The NDP needs balls if it ever going to win. Mealy mouthed consensus building won't get a politician anywhere when campaigning in this province. The NDP needs a new leader and that person needs to have the attitude of "Some call a spade a spade, I call it a fucking shovel."

To break the media's grip on the coverage, the NDP needs to call out Gordon Campbell for the nefarious corporate hack he is. They needed to say, out loud in front of the cameras:
"Campbells energy plan is a JOKE!"
"Campbell mismanaged the economy".
"Campbell wants to destroy BC Hydro."
"Gordon Campbell will spell the end of wild salmon."
"Gordon Campbell's government is filled with corruption."
etc.

They need to make unspinnable, easy to quote claims that are based on the facts. And not the lame one liners Alexa MacDonough used to spew in Ottawa. Nice, solid trash talk is what the NDP needs.

The media wants sensation, and the NDP should deliver it on its own terms. Otherwise, they will continue walking into the same old traps that Gordo and his cronies set up for them.

And, as sad as it is, I know people who voted for Campbell because all the NDP ads had against him were his DUI. I honestly heard one person say that he liked Campbell BECAUSE of his DUI. Point is there are a lot of voters out there who are f*cking idiots and don't care to look at the issues. They will not take the time to educate themselves about what it going on.

These people don't want consensus building, they want to vote for the winner. To be a winner, you need to be strong and ballsy. The NDP needs to bring the issues to them in clear, easy to understand, emotionally stimulating terms, and make it obvious who the winner is and who the loser is.

It sucks that it is this way, but that's the deal.

JefferyJ

"3. CanWestGlobal et al: the mainstream media, owned by two or three families in BC, proved its complete failure as the Fourth Estate."

If the Liberals had not won the election would say then that the above had instead won? I find that strange.

Which families are these that live in BC?

Frank

"The problem - Is that half the population doesn't care about politics let alone a particular political party."

How can that be a problem Frank? Unless one considers that all those people would otherwise vote for your party. The normal assumption would be that even if they were to vote the split between parties would be equitable.

It's not a problem. In the absence of an obligation to vote it can be considered to be apathy or a commentary on the perceived candidates.

Quebec is in and New York noticed

http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/british-columbias-carbon-tax-survives/

My take - from a former NDP candidate

"Maybe some were upset with Ms. James affirmative action where men where not allowed to seek the nomination in vacant ridings?"

I'll go on record as saying I was one of them, and it felt like getting kicked in the gut as I was seriously considering another run at Richmond Centre. I could have done something about it but I chose not to, if only because I would have gotten my politically incorrect head chopped off at the time and I had a pending federal campaign to deal with. I will probably receive some flack even now but so be it. It's a close quarters battle I will have with the Party at some point.

I am not a fan of quota systems. The quality of political candidates in all political parties has been dropping like a stone these last few years, and this election was no exception. I cannot truthfully say I was happy with all of the NDP candidates - and I'm going to point a very public finger at this quota system as perhaps a significant chunk of the problem. The ability for a political party to attract and bring in real Cabinet Minister qualified talent, regardless of gender, is crucial not only to its success at the polls but its ability to govern well enough to win successive elections. The BC NDP has failed to do so. This is particularly true of a political party whose reputation with the public is on the negative side of the ledger when it comes to economics and business, and now the environment. And I’ve knocked on a few thousand doors so I know this first hand. As a businessman and a strong environmentalist I have my doubts, and I’m a member and a supporter of this party – albeit more on the Jack Layton federal side. ( I support a carbon tax based model, with tax dollars going to make green sector technologies such as hybrid vehicles economically more acceptable - and mixed in with hard targets and enforcement where appropriate. )

Contd.

Lies, damned lies

And statistics. When I hear the "only 23% of the population voted Liberal" I have to laugh because only 21% voted NDP.

Continued: My take - from a former NDP candidate

And it was commented as to where was labour? I concur. I would suggest the BC NDP is not the labour party it thinks it is. Nor does it get the support from the rank and file that it thinks it has. Yes it’s effectively run by some big names in the labour movement, but their ability to bring out the rank and file during an election leaves a lot to be desired. However, the BC Liberals are hardly any better, and their ability to draw on volunteers and crowds is much diminished in the general malaise that is the public’s involvement in anything political these days.

The BC NDP does have to reinvent itself, big time, and I hope it moves toward a European style social democratic movement with strategic political alignments with the green sector – and I’m talking about the green business sector. Fear, uncertainty and doubt in this billion dollar industry sector helped sink the BC NDP this last election – and I don’t blame them one bit. I’m also a significant player in this industry and I know of what I speak.

I have a lot of respect for Carol James, and I’m very proud of her performance during and after the campaign – and I was honoured to be one of her candidates in 2005. Despite the issues noted above I’m still a significant donor and volunteer campaigner for the Party, and will do so again. However, I do want to see some significant changes in the party both in attitude, people and policies as it’s time to build a party that can truly govern.

realisticman

"How can that be a problem Frank? Unless one considers that all those people would otherwise vote for your party."

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear but I believe apathy towards politics is a problem and was not saying that it was a problem for the NDP (although it is).

"In the absence of an obligation to vote it can be considered to be apathy or a commentary on the perceived candidates."

Nope, there were two ballots, its the system itself they're apathetic toward, they didn't even show up to vote on it. They didn't care whether STV or FPTP won because they plan on continuing to ignore the system regardless.

Dale Jackaman: Thanks for a genuinely interesting contribution

Fear, uncertainty and doubt in this billion dollar industry sector helped sink the BC NDP this last election – and I don’t blame them one bit. I’m also a significant player in this industry and I know of what I speak.

Dale, as a bit of a cynic I am going to spin what you've said just a bit further. Would it be fair to say that the significant donor base for the big, nameplate environmental NGOs, David Suzuki, Pembina, Hollyhock, etc., is in fact the green business sector, in other words, people and companies with a personal or corporate financial interest in promoting public policies that will stimulate demand for their products and services?

On you points about BC NDP's organization, if one can say that without abusing the language, I agree that there is too much clubbiness and cliquishness among insiders and careerists. The result is that the party ran the same campaign for Carole James this Spring that it did last Fall for Jack Layton, and we know what happened there. Layton gained ground across the country, but took an embarassing setback in BC that held the national NDP to less than 40 seats, a crucial threshold in terms of putting the unfortunate deluge of the 1990s behind it.

So why run the same campaign this Spring? Well, why not? After all, it's the same campaign the same people ran over twenty years ago for Bob Skelly in 1986, so why not stick with what you know?

Dale Jackaman - good insights

I'd like to elaborate with respect to the role (or not) of labour.

A return to the NDP of the old days is impossible. Where are the sawmills? Pulpmills? Logging outfits? Mines? etc. The days of big labour, except in the public service, are gone and not likely to re-emerge. The NDP is lucky to still be polling well on Van Isl. What will happen when the blue collar guys there have sold their houses to retired city folk? The demographic shift will be huge; grumpy old men tend to vote conservative.

Dale J suggests a greening of the NDP, but that will mean the backroom boys still telling tales of labour victories on the picket lines and victories in smokey, rye-drenched bargaining sessions will have to be relegated to "what used to be".

Hey, I miss it too, but times have changed. Try getting a newly-minted Asian-Canadian excited by your picket line war stories? It ain't gonna happen.

BTW, there's a thesis in that notion as we contemplate - again, in BC - the struggle between working class residents and recent immigrants (but that should perhaps be left for another discussion).

a fucking shovel

Enjoyed your post, Dale Jackaman, but do have to point out the problem with this bit:

"The ability for a political party to attract and bring in real Cabinet Minister qualified talent, regardless of gender, is crucial not only to its success at the polls but its ability to govern well enough to win successive elections."

The problem is, of course, who defines "cabinet Minister qualified talent". Should the same old party insiders be doing that? Any party insiders? What defines cabinet material - some would say it is the ability to be a sycophant? May be the whole question of how we define success needs to be revisited?

My musings on the issues.

ME2, excelent post you a**hole. :)

@Rod Smelser

Thanks for not putting words directly into my mouth, Rod. I was slightly offended til I re-read your response to my earlier comments and realised that you had skillfully avoided doing so.

If you re-read my comments, Rod, you will see that I made no assertion whatsoever with regards to individual working people. I made the rather self-evident observation that labour "interests", just like any other "interests" in politics -- including Green ones, of course -- would seek to put their agenda ahead of any other. I use "interests" as shorthand for organisations and their leadership, to be clear.

My comment was in response to earlier comments that seemed to somehow take it for granted that a Green vote is simply an NDP vote gone woefully astray.

Yes, Rod, I was aware of the Harcourt government's record and give them full credit. And I voted for them, as there was no credible Green alternative at that time. Furthermore, my awareness of global environmental issues has grown significantly along with most everyone else's since that time. But does that one moment of glory mean that the party of Harcourt can therefore sit on their laurels and expect Green votes to fall into their laps? No it does not.

Finally, Rod, I grew up in a very rural part of southern BC with the typical mix of mining, ranching and logging as mainstays of the local economy. My family and friends are still there. I am intimately familiar with rural BC life and its challenges. Perhaps that is why I am able to give rural people of all backgrounds credit for being able to handle paying a few more cents per litre -- they have managed to come to terms with far more significant problems in their time.

Pardon me R/Man The Campbell Tax survives

It is still nothing but a money laundry for Campbell's plans to reduce services and decease taxes on his friends.

The fact that outsiders believe the PAB spin is just a further commentary upon the negligence of the MSM.

What did you think of Andrew Weaver making robocalls for the BC Liberals in Victoria Beacon Hill?

@ KevinC

I made the rather self-evident observation that labour "interests", just like any other "interests" in politics -- including Green ones, of course -- would seek to put their agenda ahead of any other. I use "interests" as shorthand for organisations and their leadership, to be clear.

KevinC, would you agree that the major source of funds for the big, nameplate environmental NGOs comes from businesses in the green industries?

I grew up in a very rural part of southern BC with the typical mix of mining, ranching and logging as mainstays of the local economy. My family and friends are still there.

Your family and friends are still there, but I gather you're not?

... who defines "cabinet Minister qualified talent"

VivianLea
The problem is, of course, who defines "cabinet Minister qualified talent". Should the same old party insiders be doing that? Any party insiders? What defines cabinet material -

I think you're right, the doable issue is who decides. Under the resolutions put forward by Cheryl Hewitt's group, the decision now rests more with the Provincial NDP Executive than with the members of the local electoral district association. The affirmative action policy increased the discretionary power of the Provincial Executive and reduced that of the membership of the local associations.

G West

"It is still nothing but a money laundry for Campbell's plans to reduce services and decease (sic) taxes on his friends."

Well no taxes at would be an interesting goal but not practical.

Taxes will be cut across the board Garth, not just for any friends that Gordon Campbell has. You too are included, that if you do indeed pay any taxes. I know Carole James promised to and wanted to cut taxes but Campbell is actually doing it and the heavy polluters are paying more.

This is what the people of BC have accepted and other jurisdictions are now looking at. I suggest that your assessment of the modalities is heavily driven by your own prejudice.

Horgan is the man

If the NDP wants to win next time they need to draft Horgan.

Period. Full stop.

In Response

Rod Smelser: "Would it be fair to say that the significant donor base for the big, nameplate environmental NGOs, David Suzuki, Pembina, Hollyhock, etc., is in fact the green business sector, in other words, people and companies with a personal or corporate financial interest in promoting public policies that will stimulate demand for their products and services?"

Yes, and I'm one of them - in particular in the hybrid vehicle and bio-energy sector. We're the Gregor Robertson generation - the bulk of which voted and funded the BC Liberals because in this world they are the lesser of two evils. None of the current political parties truly know this industry, again the lack of skill sets within current politicians in general, but at least some of them take the time to listen, setup working groups, etc. The BC NDP has made no such inroads into this industry sector and it shows. Consulting academics doesn't count. Our BC based billion dollar plus industry needs stability and a government that will listen to people who can and do provide real world solutions to real world environmental problems. Politics doesn't matter to most of us. All we care about is that the job gets done in terms of lowered emissions and less of a dependence on foreign energy sources. And that we lead the world in creating such technologies so we have something to export and jobs to create. See Nexterra Energy and Azure Dynamics as two such examples, and there are many others.

Question to Dale Jackaman

Dale, I've liked your recent input. Now I have a query that likely deserves a forum of it's own, but here goes.

I'm not sure what the Green or enviro focus is. Is it about global warming? Or is it about reducing the amount of crap we send to landfills? Is it about reducing emissions or is it about more intelligent logging practices? Is is about using biofuels produced through heavily subsidized agriculture or is it about opposing fish farms and other highly industrialized means of producing foodstuffs? Is it windpower or is it about damming small rivers?

These are questions from someone who finds much to like about the Green agenda but, also someone not quite clear about what it is the Green agenda stands for exactly. If it's about being small "c" conservative- that is, don't be wasteful - I find it an easy agenda to salute. If it's about global warming, I'm more confused.

I LOVED IT!!

Great election for me! Best since the So-Creds put Davey B and gang out in the seventies. (Like one Cowboy said, 'we pulled the halters off 'em and turned them out to paw'!)
With 'ole Gord and crew back in the saddle, we can look forward to another 4 of unparalleled opportunity and prosperity.....same as the last 8.
Bustin the goof ball STV was the 'frostin on the cake'. It was just a disfunctional scheme to let the weidos weasel there way into the system and cause even more confusion.
We have 4 kids, all married and doing well.........life is GOOD!!

Just more smoke and mirrors, folks.

Above, RMan posted a link to the NY Times which analyzes the BC election as primarily a progressive step toward the "need" for carbon taxation.

Well, IMO this confirms the accusation that Suzuki et al have obeyed orders from their American Foundation funders that they should promote Carbon taxation in Canada.

It's no secret that these Foundations received their base from Corporate donations and continue to do so. Or that their Boards are drawn from the world of high finance.

So,while it's nice to see the Corpoations "giving back", one has to wonder why Corporate America - always so quick to moan about ANY taxation - barely hesitated to jump on the Carbon taxation bandwagon.

Could it be that they see the bulk of that taxation directed at the consumer, while they instead play their flim-flam games of Cap and Trade? Already the money boys have declared the scheme to be a new "growth industy".

And wouldn't THAT would fit in well with Suzuki's guilt-tripping in which you and I should pay for our sins.

Answers for grub

It's too complex a question for a short answer, and you deserve more for asking, but in short - those of us in the green business sector do what we can with the skills and knowledge we have on hand or can acquire. And we have lots of good motivated people in Canada to draw upon. Motivation? We all have kids and we want them to have a future. And there is nothing wrong with helping to save the world and making a living doing it.

In BC we have a broad range of underutilized skills in fuel cell and hybrid electric vehicle technologies. Ditto for gasification as related to wood waste conversion. And there are others such as non-chemical microwave extraction of bio-oils from plant material.

But I'm no expert as I work on the periphery of these organizations as an information systems specialist with a forensics CSI bent. I'm a licensed P.I. in the corporate security world and I work in the field of protection of intellectual property, ie. catching bad guys stealing data. I'm also a former senior manager and IS Director at BC Research Inc. where we spun off some of these companies.

D

ME2

What do you think about the position of the CCPA on the carbon tax? Are they also under the thrall of "American Foundation funders" as you call them?

Green industries and IPP moratorium

Thanks to Dale Jackaman for sharing a lot of information. Dale, you mentioned that the green industries were looking for political stability, which actually sounds like a traditional business demand heard from Chambers and executives in any number of non-green sectors.

With that in mind, the NDP's policy of a six-month moratorium on any approvals for new run of the river power projects would have been a bit of a headache for the IPP businesses. This has been described in a report on Plutonics share value in The Hook:

http://thetyee.ca/Blogs/TheHook/BC-Politics/2009/05/14/Plutonicwins/

From the Scott Simpson Van Sun article linked to in that report:

http://www.vancouversun.com/Technology/Independent+power+producers+relieved+with+Liberals/1594897/story.html

Tzeporah Berman, PowerUP Canada executive director, said she was "relieved" that the Liberals won "because a moratorium would have meant a flood of investment and green energy companies leaving the province at a critical moment when we need them to help build the clean economy of the future.

"We have narrowly avoided letting ideology and cheap politics guide our energy policy and defer our focus from the growing threat of global warming," Berman added.

This statement from Berman is incredible, really. It sounds like a verbatim repeat of the kind of thing you hear from right-wing politicians and from business lobbyists like Phil Hochstein in every provincial election. There's going to be this huge flood of potential capital investment fleeing the province if the wrong party wins. It's complete and utter Bullshit and I believe Berman and the Sun's Scott Simpson both know that.

Capital projects with a two to five year build time, following a two to five year design and approval time, followed in turn by a fifty to one hundred year service lifetime are simply not affected in any appreciable way by a six month delay while the Crown rethinks its oversight, regulation and approval processes and criteria. To suggest otherwise is to say that any change of public policy afffecting business must be prevented at all costs, lest shareholders experience minor changes in the values of their portfolios.

The price of Plutonic shares has risen from about $3.00 pre-election to $3.50 in just three days. What they will be trading at next week, who knows?

http://www.findata.co.nz/Markets/StockQuote/TSE/PCC.htm

Are Berman and Scott Simpson seriously suggesting that public policy around permanent and irreversible resource use decisions should be determined by the needs of speculative investors for positive, or at least non-negative daily movements in share prices?

realisticman

I think they're economists and environmental policy should be held up to stricter standards such as asking if the policy does anything for the environment.

Shocking! A good question from "realistic"man!

"realistic"man
What do you think about the position of the CCPA on the carbon tax? Are they also under the thrall of "American Foundation funders" as you call them?

Marc Lee at the CCPA would have been greatly influenced by the academic economists, Mark Jaccard of SFU and David Green of UBC, who mobilized support for the BC carbon tax.

Green is a left wing Liberal on social issues who has written papers for the CCPA on raising the minimum wage. Green in particular took steps to organize support among university economists for a carbon tax, though he has written only on labour economics, not environmental economics:

http://www.econ.ubc.ca/green/cv_2007.pdf

http://www.econ.ubc.ca/green/open_let.htm

Rod

Maybe he was also influenced by Andrew Weaver - the self-described Nobel 'winner' - who provided a robocall message for the BCLiberals in Victoria Beacon Hill.

If academics behaved so badly in support of the NDP I think people would be 'shocked and appalled'.

But there's another point the R/Man ignores: Lee was absolutely critical of the money-laundering aspects of the Campbell tax for spinning cash to friends at the high end of the economic daisy chain while 'costing' the folks at the low end more.

But then, you have to take into consideration where the comment 'came' from.

On stability

"Tzeporah Berman, PowerUP Canada executive director, said "We have narrowly avoided letting ideology and cheap politics guide our energy policy and defer our focus from the growing threat of global warming."

That by statement by Berman was essentially correct. Whenever you put in place a carbon tax program you set the guidelines for businesses to operate in. Businesses look at that new tax structure and adjust their operations accordingly. Higher fuel costs make hybrid trucks and buses cost effective, and gasification projects more feasible, etc.

By the way, I am an active member of the Chamber. Many of the local Chambers are a lot more progressive than most people on the left give them credit for, in particular those Chambers made up of primarily small businessmen. The BC NDP has tried and largely failed to make inroads into the business community usually because the same old distrusting union style mind think still resides at the top - and there are still no real businessmen sitting on the governing BC NDP executive, nor in those that run the campaigns - and it shows. Fortunately the MLAs are a different breed and quite a few do have some, albeit dwindling these days, business acumen. Only a few of us in the business community have publicly made this political party our own for that reason.

In reality the small business owners can be swung because they distrust the BC Liberals right across the board for ethical, moral and economic reasons - largely related to the BC Liberals giving away the farm to big business interests. But that fight from the BC NDP never really materialized. The BC NDP is, quite frankly, far too nice. They are sorely in need of some attack dog MLA's in Victoria to counter the BC Liberal propaganda and to fight for the small business owner.

On private power: Many of us in the business sector are not in favour of this run of the rivers private power, and for many the reasons Rafe Mair and his organization have stated. Some of the projects do make sense but we'd rather have those projects kept in public hands. BC Hydro works and we have some of the cheapest most economical power in the world - which makes us more competitive where otherwise we would not be. Some hard conversations have been had with the BC Liberals over this. I don't think they get it.

D

Dale: Agree/Disagree

I think we'll have to disagree about Tzeporah Berman's statements. To me they sound like the urgent demands of people who want to do some big run of the river projects right now, get the cash flow going, environmental and other river values be damned. As I say, if it's a one hundred year investment, what the Hell is a six month delay while the Govt revises its evaluation approach?

I agree the NDP needs more business input into the campaign committees and the executive structure generally. It strikes me that the party ran the same kind of campaign this Spring that it did last fall, complete with candidate implosions, although not so many. And it was the same campaign the party ran in 1986 against Bill Vander Zalm, ... not a winning effort.

cheap politics

Tzeporah Berman is the very essence of cheap politics, Dale.

I think perhaps you are falling into the trap that says "business acumen" equals cabinet minister material...As a small business owner for over a decade - and one that could probably claim some "business acumen" since it was a rather successful firm - I was distrusted by the 'chamber types' since I paid union wage rates in my non-union business. My argument was then, and still is, that it was a brilliant piece of business stratey, and one that made my firm the market leader.

Business acumen is too often simply the status quo - unimaginative ones who desire "stability" 'cause it makes them feel all safe at night.Not conducive to the innovation that drives true business success.

I think I want people of all backgrounds in my government: a preponderance of any one 'type' makes for very bad government, as we have seen.

Perhaps the ultimate test is who you would like to have at your garden party? The vulgarity and incredible boorishness of many present cabinet ministers would make for a party that falls pretty flat in my books: think we need a few poets, a few dreamers, a few social workers, etc, etc. In the metaphorical sense, st any rate.

damn

I forgot to add we need a few more women, perhaps.

Nope - haven't seen a peep

The call came, to my house in Victoria, at 11:24am on May 11 - the caller ID indicated it was made from the Dallas Henault Office at 250 590 2098.

The message, from a man who identified himself as UVic climate 'scientist' Andrew Weaver, urged me and my family to go out and vote to support the BC Liberals because of their 'carbon tax' legislation.

They offered assistance and rides to the polls.

I erased the message that evening when I was checking my voice mail - not realizing until after I'd done so what a bone-headed move that was.

If I'd been in when the call was made would I have gotten Weaver's robo-call or a spiel from a Campbell volunteer...don't know - perhaps we could take it up with Campbell fils who seems to have taken the lead on social networking for the campaign.

How can the ndp merge with

How can the ndp merge with the greens when most of the Green party is backing the liberals?

Check this out:

http://www.bclocalnews.com/news/44928152.html

"Running on a campaign budget of $800 and having erected no election signs in the riding, Green Party candidate Steven Johns still managed to attract more than 2,000 votes. He showed up on election night at Chong’s gathering and presented her with a bouquet of flowers.

“Ida and I have run a very fun and respectful campaign,” he said. “Ida has been very supportive of myself and my team. This is politics but at the end of the day we’re people and we wanted to show our full support to Ida.”

Dale Jackaman

Sorry, but the Chambers of Commerce deserve their reputation among Dippers. And I doubt anything will change as whenever they raise their heads its only to criticize the NDP.

If business wants better relations they need to reach out and yet they've never done so.

Let's think clearly...

Seriously, how could anyone ask the NDP to unite with the greens given the demonstrated alliance they have with the Liberals, both as paid sell-outs and candidates like Steven Johns in Oak Bay Gordon Head who openly supported the Liberals (Ida Chong, who never once spoke up about the sell off of the Jordan River lands) and worked with them to split the vote?

I'll post it again, the evidence: http://www.bclocalnews.com/news/44928152.html

I could find more easily.

I'm not saying that every Green candidate was a stooge for the Liberals, but those who were not were hoodwinked by their party and their leader.

However, just as the whole NDP party has to answer for the conduct and public beliefs of our politicians, so does the Green party need to answer for their blatant lack of candidate discipline.

I am a political warrior who is dedicated to the so-called "Green" cause- however I could never align myself to the Green party as it exists now. It has never sought nor tried to advance a coherent and realistic platform, based both on pragmatism and ideals and solid theory.

The Green party "platform" has been sunshine, moonbeams and a whole pile of cobwebs reeking of Liberal neo-con whatever-the-heck-you-want-to-call it.

I worked myself half to death on this election. I fought for that victory, lost, with all my heart.

I dream of saving the Sacred Headwaters, our salmon.

I dream of the cold cool air of my 80's childhood spent in a lumber town.

I remember with the fierce hope of a protector. I live to protect the land I love, the rivers that birthed me, the trees that spoke to me in the silence of my youth.

I am a true Green, and I don't give a damn what the name of the party is that wants to save this province. We have to fight now for the next four years to protect this province. The election is behind us, we can't let this loss divide us. We need to work together to save what we have.

If people want a green alternative, they should join the NDP and help progressives take over the party.

Let's be realistic, the NDP is British Columbia's oldest continuous party, it is not going away. But the party is what it's members are. We need people to join, that is the revitalization! We need to overwhelm it with the ideas we want to see! Progressives, listen to me!

The name doesn't matter. The people are the party. Make it what you want to see, it is determined democratically.

Yes, I am a proud New Democrat. One who sees the need for revitalization. We need help to do it though. We need a true revitalization from the grass roots up. We need to be taken over. Come do it! Get involved.

See: http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/pol/1173190084.html

Moonbug

"The election is behind us, we can't let this loss divide us. We need to work together to save what we have."

Damn right

class exploitation

My own take on class exploitation is that often people do forget their Wat Tyler/Diggers and Levelers/Chartists/Marxist/Fabian/CCF roots and figure that they have made it into the exploiting side of things.
Some of the best propaganda on behalf of the capitalists has always been, "C'mon! We're all in this together. We all have the same interests."
Of late, the propaganda has been that 'Marxism is dead.It was tried and it didn't work.'

But I suspect that pretty well all the union members, chamber types, board members and managers at the cottage for the weekend sit with their drinks and look at the landscape, and pray, 'Oh please please please, Lord, please don't let me be hurled down into the proleteriat.'

Our capitalist system demands that people act in a certain way if they want to succeed in the capitalist system. The ones who act as capitalists the best are the ones who get to decide what is best for their system. It's just the way that it works.
Captitalism/business exists, not to create wealth, but to accumulate wealth. People whole contribute to their busiess doing this best are sucessful.

There's tons of creativity and invention among working people: Moms, landscapers, water works guys, metal workers, nurses,...et al. Enterprise is not found only in business types. Where business is able to accumulate wealth from everyone else, and from all our ' commons' exploitation can take place.

@ Frank

Frank, I don't think it useful to be angry at Luke; I think he reflects reality when he speaks of his union middle-class friends. Certainly HIS reality and, I fear, that's the reality with a significant portion of the electorate.

As to the barricades, his friends are long gone. We all witnessed that to the max when union brothers and sisters across this province leapt, like lemming, for the bonus Carole Taylor dangled before our eyes. We took the bribe! We deserted the barricades! We lost!

Perhaps, as moonbug suggests, the NDP needs to reinvent itself. Quite likely, the class struggle angle doesn`t work anymore.

A victorious NDP candidate (can`t recall which one) on the Island note that the current Liberal-NDP distinction was corporatism versus community.

I haven`t had a chance to really digest that notion but, somehow it sounds like it might have a future. COMMUNITY.

grub

quote:

"Perhaps, as moonbug suggests, the NDP needs to reinvent itself. Quite likely, the class struggle angle doesn`t work anymore."

Well said grub. With Frank now escalating his ancient class-war to, not only, the so-called 'rich' crushing the lower class he now widens the wedge to include the middle-class. These attempts at division are sad when really we should be moving together, as you say, towards a single community - which is what are anyway.

I'm with you grub

Family, community, culture: the most important things to most people. Even Gordon Campbell, if we believe he's doing it for his grandkids.

Still, our communities these days include a lot of children in poverty and a lot of homeless people on the streets; in other words, a community is by definition, everyone.

Cabinet and Greens

The BC NDP lost the battle to keep the environmentalists on side many years ago, that's why there is a Green party. And it doesn't take much more than a rather poorly implemented carbon tax to keep both them and the public on the BC Liberal side. That doesn't give me much confidence in either quite frankly.

On Cabinet makeup: What happens when you don't have the skills to make up a properly qualified and constituted Cabinet because you have a load of poorly qualified MLAs is this; a) you now need to muzzle your own MLAs and hand them their pre-written speeches in the legislature. b) You now need to do the same for those in cabinet who don't really qualify. c) As Premier you now need to surround yourself with a bunch of highly paid bureaucrats who are unelected and unaccountable to the electorate to run the government. d) And you need to become essentially a dictator - all of which pretty much nullify any real democracy in our supposedly democratically elected government.

Campbell and Harper know what I'm talking about.

D

Dale

So Cabinet is pro forma now ... every single decision of any consequence is made in the Premier's Office...

That doesn't mean it HAS to be that way - the invisible 'Reconciliation Act' and its provisions is the best example I can give you of what happens when there is a paucity of intelligent in house professional advice to government.

Dale, respectfully

You're still falling into traps...I am an environmentalist, and I would not consider voting for the Greens at this point - not all environmentalists are on side with the Greens, just as all business people are not on side with the Liberals, or all labour folks are on side with the NDP.

I was a business women for many years, but once got fired for inciting my coworkers to join a union,I am an "inner green": the lifeblood of all peoples is the 'real' environment, not the phony 'green economy'.

This is the reality of people; generally we are far too complicated to be categorized, and stereotyped, and pigeon-holed, and that's a good thing. Because it will take every ounce of creativity, and passion, and inspiration that we can muster - collectively - to solve our very pressing problems. But when I say collectively, it does not mean we have to rise up en masse to the revolution...some of us just have to show the way. Not sure I can do that - perhaps you can?

Frank

"Sorry, but the Chambers of Commerce deserve their reputation among Dippers. And I doubt anything will change as whenever they raise their heads its only to criticize the NDP."

I tend to agree in some respects, but not all Chambers are this way. Many are loaded with social democrats who are crying out for something, anything, to replace the BC Liberals who they feel are a) crooked b) giving away the BC farm. As I said, I'm an active member and I know of what I speak.

"If business wants better relations they need to reach out and yet they've never done so."

Given the lack of business acumen in the BC NDP perhaps it's the other way around... I'm a card carrying, three time NDP candidate, with strong and often controversial opinions and I've been more than welcomed by the Chamber. I'm also on their Government Relations Committee and am a regularly writer for their newsletter. It's called being a suite with a conscience, and there are more of us out there than you might think. We just need a political home that's a little more open minded.

D

VivianLea

I figured that - Thanks!

Dale - many of the small businessmen, tradespeople and professionals I work with all the time are NDP supporters too.

None of them have the time of day for the Chamber(s).

macsasquatch -

You're absolutely correct - I'm sure you remember Tommy's tale of the mice and the black and white cats...

Too many mice still think they're going to get an even shake from the cats.

Economic downturns and recessions provide teachable moments to educate folks who've forgotten that there are no differences between 'Liberals (BC Variety or the National sort)' and Conservatives.

As for acquiring business acumen Dale, I think you're way off base there - if aspiring to the 'level' of business smarts in the CEO's party is any criteria, left wingers would do better to ignore those lessons.

Dale Jackaman

"Many are loaded with social democrats who are crying out for something, anything, to replace the BC Liberals who they feel are a) crooked b) giving away the BC farm."

My point is that they don't say that publicly. They show no public support of the NDP, ever. Even Campbell mentioned it himself in the debate, that no business anywhere in the province supports the NDP.

And when James speaks to the Board of Trade the headline is "NDP leader receives polite applause".

There is no mystery as to why Dippers think of the business community as being part of the Liberal base.

grub

"Frank, I don't think it useful to be angry at Luke; I think he reflects reality when he speaks of his union middle-class friends. Certainly HIS reality and, I fear, that's the reality with a significant portion of the electorate."

But I didn't disagree with Luke. Quite the opposite.

"Perhaps, as moonbug suggests, the NDP needs to reinvent itself. Quite likely, the class struggle angle doesn`t work anymore."

I think it does. When Campbell ripped up the contracts of hospital workers, many of whom were women with few other options, and put a private company in place which lowered the wages of those workers and pocketed the difference, that was class warfare.

When the widening gap between the rich and poor is considered a success as it is among Liberal voters, that's class warfare.

When child poverty increases and nothing is done to arrest and people continue to vote for more of it, that's class warfare.

So I think class warfare has been very successful for the Liberals.

Frank... on class struggles...

I`d like to think you`re right (on issues of class struggles and warfare), but somehow I think the Conservative-Social Democrat divide will have to be defined differently.

At the risk of picking at scabs, I think we gave up the right to play the class struggle card when we picked up Carole Taylor`s bribe. We sold our souls. My brothers and sisters were comfortably `middle`class; you`d be hard-pressed to get them to man the barricades.

Today, with our union-negotiated pensions buying us trips to Europe, we`ll sit around sipping beer (merlot more like) laughing about and reliving our picket-line adventures. But we`re not likely to be rushing to start any revolutions anytime soon.

But... we sure don`t feel comfortable about the Liberals and are unlikely to vote for them. Perhaps we just vote NDP by rote; we`ve done it so long, what else can we do.

But I`m fairly certain the NDP message doesn`t resonate with us anymore. To borrow a horrible term from the corporate world; the NDP needs to be re-branded.

Sigh!

Moonbug gets it

Even in the 2005 election, Gordo's Gang went so easy on Adrienne Carr, it was clear that the Greens were a useful sub-division of the LINO party.

Then there was all that other stuff.

Those who fought the good fight were facing the combined forces of Gordo's LINO Party, the Greens, the Public Affairs Bureau, Bill 42, and CanWest.

Class struggle lives on - it's only morphed

What an interesting and thought-provoking discussion has developed here!! And Luke has hit the nail squarely on the head when he evokes the old bromide of “Class Warfare”. Yes, it’s still very much alive, Luke. Although the battlefield has changed, it’s still the age-old game of the rich trying to get richer at the expense of the poor.

In Marx’ time, the War was between the inherited privilege of the aristocracy and the virtual helplessness of the peasant which could be settled only through bloody revolution. As was common to all thinkers of his time, Marx thought that Democracy was only a flash in the pan, with no hope of success, and that Capitalism would collapse though it’s own greed.

It seems to be turning out that he was wrong only in his timing. Whereas for a time Democracy kept the lid on the greed of the Capitalists, over the last 60 years they've gradually shucked the legislation designed to keep them – and us – free of the purely self-interested greed that had led to the previous Depression. In the process they’ve promoted visions of Milton Friedman’s “Market Capitalism” in which regulation by the State is swept aside and all goods, whether economic or social, are provided by ‘The Market”.

And so, the venue for Class Warfare is being shifted from the oversight of our democratic institutions which can control its excesses, to the free-for-all of the Market, where only greed counts and only self-interest rules. We’re seeing the results of that scheme right now.

What’s to do? Certainly revolution is out of the question, and it is equally certain that Capitalism is far from dying. Nor does viewing our consumption-drugged population suggest Marx was far from wrong in calling them the “Lumpenproletariat”.

After reading all the posts above and agreeing with most, I see only one solution, thinking Moonbug said it best :

“If people want a green alternative, they should join the NDP and help progressives take over the party.”

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The NDP Have Failed Us

Stop blaming Greens for costing the NDP the election. The NDP have supported raw log exports, fish farming, and clear cutting. They brought us the disastrous fast ferries. Environmentalists have been branded enemies of BC.

The NDP is especially disappointing because we expect more from them. We expect them to at least believe in democracy. But when they have had majority governments, they have never enacted legislation to change our ridiculous first past the post voting system. And, for two elections now, they've said with a straight face that they didn't want to take sides on STV, because it was an important decision best left up to the people to decide on their own. Odd they didn't take that stand on any other important political issue of the day. It was disgusting.

The NDP also have double standards. Federally, they talk about the importance of third parties, and for people to vote who they feel is the best party, regardless of who may form government. Provincially they talk about splitting the vote, and wasting votes on third parties.

The NDP refuses to cooperate with the Greens. They do everything in their power to make sure the Greens don't ever have a voice. Not for the public good. But for self-serving reasons.

Yet there are many fine NDP supporters. They like Greens and STV. They believe in carbon taxes because they know they are effective and fair, and are the most efficient way to try to put the brakes on climate change. But while their numbers are strong, the NDP leadership continue to abandon them.

The NDP have such impressive roots. But, for a long time now, they've been living on their past reputation. Keep on talking about your glory days. Now you're barely better than the horrendous right wing parties in Canada.

No, the Greens aren't the problem. The NDP is the problem. They don't deserve my vote. I'll keep wasting it on the Greens.