Opinion

The Coalition Deserves to Live

And critics who say the NDP is folding on Afghanistan are wrong.

By Michael Byers, 5 Jan 2009, TheTyee.ca

Michael Ignatieff

Ignatieff: Agree to disagree.

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Everyone makes mistakes, but those who write for public consumption are scrutinized more closely. Last year, I thought Stephen Harper would cut economic ties with Cuba and allow the sale of Radarsat-2. Two years ago, I believed George W. Bush would bomb Iran.

So I sympathize with Murray Brewster who, in the rush to cover last month's coalition agreement, reported that "New Democrats will stop opposing Canada's war in Afghanistan while the party is in league with the Liberals." This, the veteran Canadian Press journalist concluded, was "a significant concession for a party that has been the standard-bearer for the peace movement in Canada."

Other observers then relied on Brewster's account. In these pages, Bill Tieleman wrote, "the NDP now faces the challenge of explaining to supporters why they were willing to jettison key 2008 election positions -- like wanting Canadian troops out of Afghanistan...."

The explanation is easy: no concession was ever made.

Moreover, the fact that Liberal and NDP negotiators were able to accommodate their policy differences on Afghanistan speaks volumes about the continued viability of the coalition. With the holiday season out of the way, it's time now to refocus on the very real possibility of a new, cooperative and progressive federal government.

What 'putting aside differences' means

The mis-reporting of the NDPs' position on Afghanistan stemmed from a statement by Thomas Mulcair, the deputy leader of the New Democrats. Brewster quoted Mulcair as saying, "The NDP is putting aside its differences that have existed historically with the Liberals on such issues as Afghanistan."

Read in isolation, the statement could seem ambiguous. Does "putting aside its differences" mean adopting the Liberal position or just agreeing-to-disagree?

The answer -- that it's an agreement-to-disagree -- is found later in Brewster's article, where Liberal finance critic Scott Brison is quoted as saying: "All three parties recognize the seriousness and as such we are putting aside our differences to focus on common ground."

Afghanistan isn't mentioned in the coalition agreement or associated policy accord. The focus is on the economic crisis, a matter on which the two parties were -- and are -- able to agree.

Coalition government explained

Decades of majority governments have left Canadians ill-prepared to understand how coalitions work. It's difficult to grasp the fact that we elect individual members of Parliament rather than parties or prime ministers, and leave it to our MPs to sort the rest out.

The central requirement is that any government must enjoy the support of the majority of MPs when matters of "confidence" are put to a vote. According to longstanding practice, confidence votes are limited to speeches from the throne, spending bills and specifically designated, opposition-called votes of non-confidence.

When no single group of MPs (a party) holds the majority of seats in the House of Commons, a smaller grouping can form a minority government. But they must still be able to obtain enough vote-by-vote support from other MPs to prevail on confidence matters.

Canada has had 14 minority governments at the federal level, including three during the last four years. The most recent of these was Mr. Harper's second government, which obtained majority support for the speech from the throne before Parliament was abruptly prorogued.

A coalition is different because two or more parties form a single government. Cabinet posts are shared out between the parties, which negotiate policy between themselves before presenting it to the House.

In the Liberal/NDP coalition, six New Democrats will be full-fledged cabinet ministers. Another six will be "parliamentary secretaries" -- junior cabinet members who assist a minister and attend cabinet meetings.

Since cabinet members are responsible for implementing government policy, these 12 New Democrats will be more constrained than their 25 caucus colleagues during votes in the House of Commons. The coalition agreement recognizes this, specifying that "The rules and practices of cabinet confidentiality and solidarity will be strictly maintained."

In return, they'll exercise considerable influence over policy-making. With both parties intent on providing Canadians with an effective and stable government, there's a strong shared interest in avoiding coalition-ending disagreements or slights. The coalition agreement spells out that the parties will consult continuously on a "no surprises" basis.

How the agreement-to-disagree works

The agreement-to-disagree concerns the timing of Canada's withdrawal from the counterinsurgency mission in Kandahar. The New Democrats want our soldiers home as soon as possible; the Liberals committed themselves to a 2011 exit-date when they voted for a Parliamentary resolution last March.

It's a significant difference of policy, but not one that threatens the coalition. The first vote on the extension to 2011 wasn't constitutionally required, and a confirming vote isn't required now. In our British-derived parliamentary system, the prime minister holds the power to deploy troops on his own. When Mr. Harper put an earlier extension of the Afghanistan mission to a vote in May 2006, he said that he'd extend the mission with or without the support of the House.

Neither coalition partner is about to call for another vote on the 2011 exit-date.

Nor will the Conservatives cause mischief on this front. If they did, New Democrat MPs would behave just like 139 of Tony Blair's Labour MPs did when they voted against deploying troops to Iraq in 2003. Blair carried the day with the support of Conservative MPs -- and the dissident Labour MPs remained part of his government.

As for the 12 NDP cabinet members, they could -- in the implausible and exceptional circumstances that I've just described -- be permitted to vote on party lines. Any NDP cabinet member with responsibilities in the foreign or defence policy domains would then implement the expressed will of Parliament.

Moreover, agreeing-to-disagree on the withdrawal date doesn't preclude agreement on other, equally important aspects of the Afghanistan mission.

Harper breaks his word

The two parties have agreed on aspects of the Afghanistan mission before. In April 2007, Dawn Black and Michael Ignatieff both demanded the dismissal of then-defence minister Gordon O'Conner after reports that prisoners transferred from Canadian custody had been tortured.

It's time for a strong common position again, because Mr. Harper is defying the expressed will of Parliament concerning the character of the mission.

On Dec. 6, the Globe and Mail's Graeme Smith reported that Canada's military leaders were promising more offensive operations through the winter months. Brig.-Gen. Richard Blanchette predicted more "kinetic energy" as thousands of additional U.S. troops arrived.

The increased kinetic energy is already visible. Nine Canadian soldiers died last month as they struggled to maintain an 80 kilometre supply route to a new base for incoming Americans.

This clearly runs counter to the Parliamentary resolution of March 2008, which redirected the Canadian Forces towards (a) training the Afghan National Security Forces; (b) providing security for reconstruction and development efforts in Kandahar; and (c) the continuation of Canada's responsibility for the Kandahar Provincial Reconstruction Team.

As Mr. Ignatieff said, "Parliament extended the mission on the explicit understanding that the mission would change and focus upon reconstruction and training." Then-Liberal leader Stéphane Dion went so far as to describe the resolution as "a contract between this government and Parliament."

Now, just nine months later, Canadian soldiers are paying the ultimate price for Mr. Harper's cynical willingness to break his word.

On this, Liberals and New Democrats can easily agree. The Parliamentary resolution is Liberal Party policy; for the NDP, a shift towards reconstruction and development is the next best thing to an early withdrawal.

So let's continue to disagree -- and also, together, change the direction of the war.

Related Tyee stories:

[Tyee]

Michael Byers holds the Canada Research Chair in Global Politics and International Law at the University of British Columbia. In the last federal election, he was the NDP candidate in Vancouver Centre.

111 Comments:

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  • alive

    3 years ago

    Coalition is a good idea

    Of course the coaliton is viable!
    The conservative propaganda machine has been going full bore, with call-ins to radio and TV shows, each caller parrotting the scripted lines.
    The media is of course biased to begin with, so how can the general public form an independant opinion?
    Coalition governments are the rule in many countries, and in many respects democracy is bettere served when voters learn that it is OK to vote for the party they really like, knowing it has a chance to influence policy.
    Proportional representation would also be good, but for the moment a coalition is a good start.

  • BC Mary

    3 years ago

    Coalition YES

    This is the first statement I've seen in a long time, to advance the idea of a Liberal-NDP Coalition.

    I was afraid the Forces of Flanagan had crushed the Coalition idea before it got a chance to function.

    Thank You Michael Byers and The Tyee for this column. I hope the topic will be discussed regularly.

    And then adopted, to great benefit.

  • happy

    3 years ago

    Did you hear the one about...

    A driver is stuck in a traffic jam on the motorway. Nothing is moving.
    Suddenly a man knocks on the window.
    The driver rolls down his window and asks, 'What's going on?'

    'Terrorists down the road have kidnapped Ignatieff, Layton and Duceppe.
    They're asking for a $10 million ransom, otherwise they're going to douse them with
    gasoline and set them on fire.

    We're going from car to car, taking up a collection.'

    The driver asks, 'How much is everyone giving, on average?'

    'Most people are giving about 4 litres

  • janfromthebruce

    3 years ago

    Coalition govt is the only viable alternative

    We all know that the Harper Conservative stimulus economic package is not going to be progressive - all they can think about is taxcuts.
    Harper and his gang will just return to more of the same crap, once the window of opportunity is lost - let's not make that mistake.
    Conservatives OUT - Coalition NOW.

    Thanks Byers for clearing up Afghanistan.

  • Percy

    3 years ago

    Polls deadly for coalition

    The latest Compas poll confirms polling results early in December that the coalition proposal has been disastrous for the New Democrats, who are polling at about 13%. That's a staggering drop in NDP support, and what's more, the numbers have continued to drop since the start of December. Clearly, an enormous portion of those who voted NDP in October have deserted the party--just a little under 1/3 of their electoral support. When your electoral base vaporizes before your eyes, you have to wonder whether persisting with the coalition idea is electoral suicide. Maybe it's time to dump Jack.

  • Jeffrey J.

    3 years ago

    Anti Coalition is Anti Democratic

    The mainstream media in Canada has reached a new low water mark in anti democratic rhetoric. Canada's Westminster parliamentary democracy was SPECIFICALLY designed to run successive coalition governments. The repeated misinformation suggesting otherwise is disturbing. This is classic "black is white, white is black". Orwell spent much of his life describing autocratic rule. Yet here we see it, expanding and growing.

    Hitler's Nazi party did NOT have a majority government when the Reichstag Fire occurred. If there had been a coalition government opposing them, the world would now be a different place.

    That should be a lesson to al of us. The sooner we permit our democratic parliament to create a coalition, the better. If we not, we will do so at our own peril.

    An excellent article by an author who is not afraid to speak out.

  • Luke Skywalker

    3 years ago

    Read The Tea Leaves People...

    With Ignatieff in place as the new Liberal leader, any thought of a coalition is dead and I mean DEAD.

    From Ipsos a couple of days ago...

    Quote:
    70% of those interviewed said they wanted "the politicians on Parliament Hill to start co-operating so that the budget is passed and we get more stability in Parliament."

    Quote:
    Only 30% said that "if the opposition says the budget is insufficient, they should defeat it so we can have an election and clear the air, once and for all."

  • G West

    3 years ago

    Another alternative

    If only 30%, luke, want an election, there IS another alternative...and that is, 70% would prefer the coalition to govern if the budget fails.

    Even that first Ipsos result can be interpreted in a different way - after all, it happens that the current dictator in Ottawa is the one who breaks his own laws and promises and sows discord and conflict almost all the time, remember.

    Seems to me you can read those old tea leaves several different ways...

    I think we spend too much time here in BC drinking our own bathwater.

    As for your observations Percy, I think the suggestion that your concern for the survival of the NDP is a little disingenuous.

    You've been pummeling them, and Jack for years - not much of a change in your post this morning.

  • Skywalker

    3 years ago

    Luke

    How is a coalition not "cooperation". Is it cooperation only when Harper is supported by another party? Oops that is a coalition is tit not?

  • Van Isle

    3 years ago

    It's still surprising how

    It's still surprising how many people don't understand how our parliamentary system works and in particular the talking heads in the mass-media. We don't have a crisis, we're not going the way of Yugoslavia any time soon (unless Alberta has a hissy-fit and can't understand why a majority of Canadians don't like the CONS). Thanx Michael for this article, just hope some of our federal politians will read it too. I still believe that we don't have a democracy and one of the reasons is because there is too much power in the Prime Ministers Office.

  • Van Isle

    3 years ago

    On the subject of coalition,

    On the subject of coalition, isn't the present Conservative Party a coalition of Reformers, Alliance, Canadian Reform Alliance, and Progressive Conservatives???

  • realisticman

    3 years ago

    Viva la Coalition!

    Go Jack, Go!

    One would have thought that Iggy would want to distinguish himself from the so recently failed Dion mess. Dion running for the door in lightening speed was kinda sad to see, especially at holiday time. A gushing confession of a failed putch. I guess he feels lucky he didn't try it in somewhere like Banditoistan where he could have ended up as dogmeat.

    Iggy should try the same thing all over again. Damn those polls, take power man! This is no time to wait to fight an election, especially when you don't have to and the party is broke. Dion can have the Environment Ministry again and re-launch that Green Shift thingy. Or, if Stéphie's bored with the Kyoto schtick he could be Ambassador to France. The Liberals know that they were right and the public was wrong. So what if it was the lowest vote for the Liberals in history, that's just an inconvenient democracy technicality.

    Bob Rae gets Treasury Board and Jack can have Industry. Maybe Gilles gets Intergovernmental Affairs.

    Alberta will have nobody in Cabinet but they'll get used to it. It'll definitely sell newspapers and keep Rick Mercer busy.

  • sirjohna

    3 years ago

    ndp'ers will hang on to this

    ndp'ers will hang on to this coalition to the death. canadians may not be the most aware populace in the world, but they're keen enough to realize the ndp is out of touch, ergo the coalition is the only chance they'll ever have of holding a seat in gov't.

  • Werner Patels

    3 years ago

    With Iggy taking lead, it may well be a good idea

    I was dead set against the coalition when it was first threatened, er, proposed. I just couldn't stomach Dion as PM -- the most inept and incompetent politician in Canadian politics in a very long time, and resoundingly rejected by 74% of voters of Oct. 14, including most Liberals.

    But now that Iggy is in charge, the coalition may make more sense. Let's see what happens after Jan. 27.

  • Wilfred Laurier

    3 years ago

    The system is working...

    The coalition was a brilliant thing and shows how the system can work. Look at Harper's climb-down and how fast he backpedaled.

    Wait until the budget. I would wager that Herr Harper will soon be a true true believer in Keynes.

  • carfreed

    3 years ago

    coalition

    Before and during the next election: the Greens, NDP, LIBS and CAP should sign an agreement to form a coalition government. We would still have to vote strategically but this time with less party ego aggrandisement.

  • Michael

    3 years ago

    Michael, don't forget your opposition to the carbon tax

    Thanks for keeping up the good fight Michael Byers. It's not just Afghanistan. Remember that your party is opposed to the Green Shift to fight global warming. You and Liberals will have to agree to disagree on this one as well, at least until Iggy formally disavows it.

  • Chris H

    3 years ago

    happy

    Thanks to happy for his little joke. It reaffirms that there are really no reasonable arguments coming out that side of the political spectrum.

  • Skywalker

    3 years ago

    Silly joke and more

    It's an old worn out anecdote told with variations on the names depending on what side of the political spectrum the teller is on. Stale even now.

    The media have offered a choice of support Harper or go to an election. There was never any suggestion that a coalition of the other three was an option. In the discussion there was also no understanding that a coalition means all parties concede certain parts of their platform. The Bloc concedes separation for the duration. The NDP concedes some of their more left of center policies and the liberals would concede some of their right wing policies. That is just as it should be.

    Ignatief has a hard choice to make. Support Harper and lose the left of his party Or go with the NDP and Bloc and lose some of the right in his party. He could govern for a time and overcome this in renewed support from the left and labour. If he goes with Harper, he makes Harper look good and enhances Harper's chance in another election.

    Still if you are unhappy blame a naive Governor General.

  • alda

    3 years ago

    My take is that Ignatieff

    My take is that Ignatieff was annointed in order to eliminate the coalition. The regressive backroom boys didn't like Dion's new age ideas from the start, and they won't want an alliance with progressive types now (a.k.a. the NDP).

    Calling Dion "incompetent" when we've had far more egregiously dishonest types in power in this country is a red herring tactic used to distract Canadians from recognizing the coalition's validity. The power boys will do anything to cut off the progressive movement at its knees, and they've just done it, again.

  • Jane Doe

    3 years ago

    Just picking up the thread

    With the current state of the world economy the last thing this country needs is for the NDP to get close to the corridors of power; and this coalition almost landed them there. It was like the doomsday clock suddenly skipped forward two minuter. I still have nightmares about it.

    I was in Thailand sympathizing with locals about their corrupt politics when I first got news of this "coalition" idiocy. My heart sunk.

    Clearly the people of Canada spoke on election day, and have spoken again through declining poll results for the NDP.

    Why should they be launched into a serious position of power (via the coalition) when clearly that is not what the electorate want.

    I appreciate that many of the views on this site speak to trying anything that is not conservative, but wait a minute - you are a minuscule part of the electorate.

    Just so there is no confusion on where I stand personally I don't think Dion was merely incompetent, he was a total incompetent, though I do wish he was still leading that party.

    Calling the NDP 'progressive' seems to beg for a review of the word definition; retrograde would seem to be a better fit.

  • deeby

    3 years ago

    Two possibilities

    Wanna coalition...? Bring in some form of pro-rep.

    Wanna big tent like the US Democratic party...? Do what Harper did and unite the left.

    All hail the Liberal-Democratic Party ;-)

    But seriously, Harper was so spectacularly successful at framing the coalition as anti-democratic, (Westminster tradition and Canadian history be damned), I can't see any point in pursuing it without electoral reform. Either give us pro-rep or unite the parties once and for all....

  • alda

    3 years ago

    Jane, For the tenth time, I

    Jane,
    For the tenth time, I suggest you and like-minded commentators read your history to understand that the coalition is NOT some ad-hoc, rag-tag, casual pajama party group thrown together by folks you happen to disagree with, but a historical, democratic, LEGALLY SANTIONED POLITICAL LEGISLATIVE ENTITY, with a perfect right to govern if it so deems.

    If you don't like it, I suggest you lobby your favorite Conservative MPs to outlaw coalitions outright so they can make way for a fully fascist, iron-fisted system that allows for NO checks and balances by the opposition, whatsoever. (How ironic that you should be sympathizing with Thais over "corrupt power" when you seem to blindly support blatantly dishonest regimes in this country.)

    Please note, also, that the most progressive countries in the world (that coincidentally also have the highest standards of the living in the world) have similar social and environmental policies supported by the ND's. How you can call that "retrograde" is utterly nonsensical.

  • Skywalker

    3 years ago

    Beam me up Scotty!

    This creeping ignorance or denial of how we got into this economic mess really defies understanding. The mainstream media has played a contemptible role in this with its lack of any real discussion of the democratic options when a minority government refuses to cooperate. All the right-wing economic policies that have dominated in Canada for the last umpteen years still gave us this recession and "economic meltdown". It was not done by the NDP or any socialists in any government. Oh yes, we have to blame it on what is happening in the rest of the world. But let any NDP provincial government try to explain things by what is happening in Asia or world commodity prices and you don't believe a word of it.

    No wonder the world is in a mess. All the capitalists and wannabe capitalists can't remember from any past experience. So, Jane Doe, What is progressive about bailing out the big three automakers or the banks who can't manage their financial house? What utter nonsense that policies that protect individuals (workers) is not progressive and the fact that they only seem to take a priority with the NDp is itself a scandal.

    Canada spoke on election day, yes but they said to Harper,"Sorry ole boy but no majority, we don't trust you!" We are suppose to let him run the place more so than the other three who together hold more seats. What kind of creeping fascist logic is that?

    The last thing this country needs is a bunch General Bullmooses which got us into this mess happily carrying on as before, having learned nothing, going around saying the enemy is this other group or that other group.

    Maybe I should blame our schools. They just don't teach democracy in anything other than "tradition"! Screw tradition, that's what got us here. Anything bold and new is worth a shot. What have we got to lose?

  • G West

    3 years ago

    Well put alda and Skywalker

    It would seem the neo-cons won't give up without a fight...

    However, there is ample evidence that their thinking is so clouded and confused that perhaps they won't be All that much of a problem.

    Portfolio Magazine had an excellent piece recently - written by a former 'master of the universe'. A fellow called Michael Lewis....

    You might enjoy it too:
    http://www.portfolio.com/news-markets/national-news/portfolio/2008/11/11/The-End-of-Wall-Streets-Boom

  • mbyers

    3 years ago

    Green Shift is History

    In response to "Michael" (above), Dion surrendered the Green Shift in the coalition agreement. The relevant provision reads:

    "We will work with our North American Partners to pursue a North American cap-and-trade market with absolute emission targets, using 1990 as the base year."

    Thanks to everyone else for their thoughtful comments!

    Michael Byers

  • realisticman

    3 years ago

    Baloney & Kool-Aid

    skywalker

    "when a minority government refuses to cooperate."

    You don't actually believe that do you?

    Read the Jack Layton telephone transcript from last November and the fact of the matter is that the coalition was on the march no matter what the Conservatives came up with. Even if they'd come up with a chicken in every pot the gang of three was on the march. It was a pre-meditated hit that had nothing to do with cooperation.

    As for the ridiculous claims that the people want the coalition and anything other is creeping fascism by a minority. I'll remind you that Canada has had eleven minority governments, including those of Pearson, Trudeau, Clark, Martin and Harper. Would you equate those with fascism? Was there a cry for a coalition of the opposition?

    I do hope that this lust for the coalition persists because what it's doing to the Liberal and NDP numbers is fun to see. Please keep at it.

  • Gray

    3 years ago

    Can't see it

    Ignatieff seemed to be against the coalition when the idea was first floated.

    I reckon the joke about the young bull and the old bull looking at the cows is operative here instead of hurrying to get one cow Ignatieff with take his time and get all the cows - a majority. Or at least try.

  • happy

    3 years ago

    Yes it was a silly joke

    Thats making the email rounds in the private sector coast to coast.
    It showed up in my inbox at work from Halifax.
    BTW Skywalker, I'm in complete agreement with you. No bailouts! The Big Three need to reorganize and become the Big Two.
    This will, of course come with large job losses, mainly union. Probably have to revisit those "Spa days" too.

  • Dan the socialist

    3 years ago

    Percy 10 hours ago The

    Percy
    10 hours ago

    The latest Compas poll confirms polling results early in December that the coalition proposal has been disastrous for the New Democrats, who are polling at about 13%.

    -----------

    Source? Is there a new poll out?

    The last polling in Mid December Angus had NDP at 20%, Eko at 19.4 and Nano's 21.4 %..

  • AMP

    3 years ago

    Vive la coalition!

    Absolument, c'est le plus bien choix pour nous. C'est la meilleur moitie - l'autre choix est trop dangereuse pour l'environment, et la democracie.

  • RickW

    3 years ago

    R/M old man....

    Quote:
    Read the Jack Layton telephone transcript from last November and the fact of the matter is that the coalition was on the march no matter what the Conservatives came up with. Even if they'd come up with a chicken in every pot the gang of three was on the march. It was a pre-meditated hit that had nothing to do with cooperation.

    What's your point? Are you saying that this is not one of the functions of the opposition? Are you saying that an opposition isn't supposed to "oppose"?
    If so, then throwing the word "fascism" must be because you yourself are inclined that way.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    That's what the OPPOSITION does when the House isn't handcuffed

    Especially when the dictator has less than 38% of the votes. The coalition may not appeal to you - it certainly does to a majority of voters - if not the slugs who respond to public opinion polls.

    As for its future, if it doesn't bring down the Harper fascists in the first six months subsequent to Oct 14, 2008 there will be an election.

    Otherwise, the coalition has the democratic 'right' to govern if Harper loses the confidence of the House before that 6 months has expired.

    Ignorance of the law and the way the system works is NO EXCUSE and those who rely on public opinion to form their own ideas are, in my view, pathetic in the extreme. Only slightly less pathetic than the current excuse for responsible journalism in this country. CanWest shares, not surprisingly, are about on a par with Chrysler shares these days - bog surprise!

    As for the 'need' for unions, I'd happily kiss them goodbye if governmental regulation and enforcement of working-place standards, remuneration and equity were a reality guaranteed in the Constitution.

    They aren't - so we'd all better be glad there are some unions left. Because as much as the neocons think they have all the answers, the record of the past several years seems to indicate that even a supposed lightweight like Jack Layton could do a better job than either the Liberals or the so-called Tories.

  • Jane Doe

    3 years ago

    crazy times

    Whoa that came thick and fast.

    Alda "for the tenth time" ? I just signed after a long hiatus. Anyway I'm all for opposition to the elected party. What I'm not in for is the opposition suddenly climbing into the drivers seat without a mandate from the people. Especially when some passengers are in a decline with the voters (NDP) and some are simply interested in one province. (you know who).

    So though this maneuver was obviously legal, its use sets a terrible precedent.

    Any minority government becomes susceptible to such covert, backroom manipulation.

    So though you may pray at the alter of the NDP, you have to give a thought for the voters of this country (remember them?)
    Ultimately they have to win and a party that has such low popularity as the NDP should not and must not be sharing the drivers seat.
    Experience counts and the federal NDP have none.
    Being from BC I can quote all kinds of NDP fraud and mismanagement but I'm sure you have swept those under the table of left wing amnesia.

    Skywalker:

    "What is progressive about bailing out the big three automakers" - do not let your NDP friends know you asked such a question otherwise it's curtains for you.

    Not progressive in my books. The super strong labour unions have made the companies poor competition for the Japanese. Perhaps a bankruptcy would force the companies to sharpen their pencils when they next sit down to negotiate rich contracts.

    So I agree with you Skywalker - how strange.

    G West:

    "Well put alda and Skywalker" - are you serious. I always thought your opinions were well thought out - not this time.

    Neo-con, fascist - hold on folks isn't this a bit strong. I'm just a taxpayer, voter like yourselves.

  • Fraser Valley Fellow

    3 years ago

    Harper has Horseshoes

    First of all, Harper got away with breaking his own law around fixed election dates. Then Harper, known to be an ally of George W Bush, manages to sneak in another Conservative minority government mere days before the US populace elect Barback Obama, the most progressive American president in many decades. Then Harper breaks his promise to cooperate with all MPs, especially to deal with the economic mess many of his corporate backers helped cause. Then, in the face of being thrown out of office by a coalition of (mostly) progressive federal parties, he manages to convince our Governor-General to prorogue Parliament. Of course, the mainstream media helped Harper here. Now we have a PM supporting what Israel is doing to the people of the Gaza. Hmmmmm, it really makes a person wonder if there is a connection between Harper's support for Israeli aggression and the corporate media's unconditional support for him. At any rate, this guy has political horseshoes like I have rarely seen.

  • BrianWhite

    3 years ago

    Opinion polls and the coalition

    Opinion polls are just an attempt to cause some liberals to jump ship while harper trys to buy them off.
    Really public support or lack of support is meaningless at this time.
    All that matters is bums in the votes. If the coalition has the numbers Harper will be slaughtered by the conservative mob.
    Opinion polls will only really be of concern half way through the term of the new government.

  • stevie wonders

    3 years ago

    Coalition proposal a left-wing power grab

    I wonder how many have noticed that the only people still promoting a coalition government to counter the Conservatives are those from the mid to extreme left. They do so because they know, if successful, it will be the only chance they will ever see power in Ottawa.

    However, they will not see power in Ottawa. Their federal-level agenda is systematically rejected by the majority of Canadians, and has been ever since the party was formed.

    Since the disappearance of the Progressive Conservative party, the only viable centrist party remaining is the Liberal Party. That is where the efforts of progressives must go.

    The vast majority of Liberals will not support a coalition.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    Sorry Jane Doe

    But I happen to have a very good memory – the last time we crossed swords was in September of 2007 when you were determined to tell me I knew absolutely NOTHING about business matters. You weren’t very complimentary then, why would I expect anything but opprobrium now. In fact, the neo con lobby think the Japanese approach to the recession of the 90s was pathetic...I assure you the majority of the Japanese 'people' don't agree. You can check Willam Robson of C D Howe on the matter – you’ll find the column in the Globe and Mail (Dec 30, if you missed it).

    If you don't think subverting the will of parliament and shutting it down was fascistic, I wonder what would qualify for the label from your point of view.

    You might care to do a little research, the last time a Canadian prime minister used the prorogue wrinkle he was dodging the Pacific scandal and payola.

    Nice company Pee Wee Rambo keeps.

    Strong labour unions aren't so necessary in a society like Japan where the earnings multiple and inequality aren't rampant and child poverty - unlike here in BC - is very rare.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    By the way

    In case there's some confusion, Robson is a Harperite neocon and he thinks the Japanese idea of investing in infrastructure and keeping wages and employment up was bogus...

  • Jane Doe

    3 years ago

    Sorry Jane Doe

    G - you don't have to apologize - we all make mistakes - just reflect and move on.

    However I am flattered that you remember my posts - that long eh - where did 2008 go.

    So you really feel that the crime of using the prorogue, was worst than that of subverting the will of the people. You must have heard the feedback on the idea of a coalition. Legal but but very sneaky and very dangerous.

    Why would you want someone who, you yourself referred to as a 'light weight', anywhere near to the controls.

    I would not be so kind in my assessment. Rank amateur, mis-guided, foolhardy work better for me. Jack ain't no Barack.

    Anyway I guess an election is the only way to solve this - and then can we accept the will of the people? - even if you disagree with their choice.

    Anyway nice talking with you again.

  • realisticman

    3 years ago

    RickW

    Opposing is fine but saying...;

    "December 8 2008

    ...The Economic and Fiscal Update delivered by the Finance Minister showed that the government does not take the current global economic crisis seriously. They had an obligation to provide a strong stimulus package for the Canadian economy and help middle class and working families who are facing increasing economic pressure during these tough times.
    As a result, I wish to inform you that my party and the other two opposition parties have lost confidence in this Conservative government. ...

    Jack Layton, MP Toronto-Danforth
    Leader, New Democratic Party of Canada"

    ...when the plot was planned no matter what was in the Economic plan, it was not exactly the entire truth and not the reason at all. If all that was needed is an agreement from the combined opposition then why did he muddy the waters instead of just saying so?

  • realisticman

    3 years ago

    and Rick

    It was 'skywalker' that used that 'f' word and I was responding to him.

    skywalker, "We are suppose (sic) to let him run the place more so than the other three who together hold more seats. What kind of creeping fascist logic is that?"

    He threw that stone.

  • Skywalker

    3 years ago

    "Ultimately they have to win"

    Those were your words Jane Doe and in case you didn't realize or watch the TV election results Harper did not win anything except his seat. None of them (parties)won. Why does Harper get to govern by periodic "coalitions"? Is that just because he has more seats than the others but still only 37% of the vote? Who decided that was the rule? The unelected corporate media? The unelected Governor General? Is that democratic? The principle of democracy is that government is for the people and by the people. My math tells me a government of 62% of the people is more "of the people" and more "by the people." Justifying Harper's 37% is just the same right-wing nonsense that assumes the only people capable of running the country are conservative/reformers. Have you noticed folks, WE ARE IN A RECESSION caused by (are you listening) a succession of right-wing and right of center governments since confederation. Does it make sense to continue with the same narrow look at our "old stale democracy" which protects the status quo?

    Coalitions are by their very existence moderate groups. They compromise. What could be more progressive just when that is what Canada needs. Harper has no more legitimacy to now govern by his coalition - which is exactly what he will have to create - than any one of the other three.

  • Zebulon

    3 years ago

    The NDP is folding on Afghanistan

    Byers is in full spin mode. Clearly the NDP is embarrassed over its utter capitulation on the war.

    Ironically, everything Byers says only serves to confirm the proposition he is trying to wish away: that the NDP is prepared to bury its opposition to the illegal and immoral war in Afghanistan in exchange for a minority vote in an Ignatieff cabinet.

    The NDP has "agreed to disagree" with the Liberals on Afghanistan, says Byers. In fact, however, the NDP has agreed NOT to disagree; the leading one-third of the Paliamentary caucus will be captives of Cabinet solidarity, unable to disagree with the Liberal-dominated government on Afghanistan or anything else.

    Byers is being disingenuous if he thinks this will leave the other 25 NDP caucus members free to disagree with Iggy and the 12 NDP captives in cabinet; anyone doing so would risk their political career. In any event, the entire caucus is bound by the coalition agreement to vote with the government on all confidence motions, so the NDP has no leverage to force concessions from its coalition "partners" on the war.

    "Neither coalition partner," Byers blithely says, "is about to call for another vote on the 2011 exit-date," thereby proving Murray Brewster right. Byers talks as if the continuation of the war for another three years, to the end of 2011, is a mere detail - something that is of no real consequence. Apparently he and the NDP leadership are prepared to accept the killing and maiming of dozens more Canadians and thousands more Afghanis, in order to make peace with the Liberals. They have conveniently ignored party policy democratically passed in convention that calls for immediate withdrawal of Canadian troops from Afghanistan.

    This entire issue only serves to underline the unprincipled nature of the NDP's coalition agreement with the Liberal war party.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    Jane

    I wasn't apologizing - any more than YOU ever would. You still aren't reading very closely.

    The will of the people in a representative democracy - for those who understand it and aren't under thrall to wooly headed Preston Manning type ideas - is expressed at the ballot box.

    Apparently you and a lot of Canadians - among them the bought and paid for media - don't understand the distinctions.

    Perhaps you'd prefer government by referendum - I certainly don't honour the current style which is, as I stated, both fascistic and dictatorial.

    The fact of the matter is that Stephie boy lost the confidence of the House - if he were a man he'd have admitted it and given the coalition a chance to govern.

    I don't think we have any better handle on the Canadian 'will' than the verdict on OCT 14.

    And, by the way, where did you pin that gold medal the realisticman gave you?

    Jack may not be Barack - little Stephen certainly is pee wee Rambo - and that's exactly what worried me.

  • alda

    3 years ago

    Illogical, Jane

    I sincerely hope, Jane that you never sit on a jury as it's clear you have little respect for the rule of law. Your and millions of other Canadians' OPINION that the coalition sets a "terrible precedent" is totally irrelevant. I and millions of other Canadians happen to think that Stephen Harper is a "terrible" prime minister - but, fact is, IF he has the confidence of the house (debatable at this point), legally he is allowed to rule. In that case, the opinions of those of us who are unhappy with him count for mud as far as his legal right to lead goes -- which is exactly how our system is supposed to work.

    "Experience counts and the federal NDP have none."

    Is this supposed to be an intelligent argument? By this skewed logic, we should still be ruled by fuedal lords as no new political candidates or parties, Harper, Churchill, FDR, Pearson, Sir John A Macdonald, or any other modern leaders would EVER have been allowed to take power (not enough "experience"). The US would still be ruled British Kings, the French would be stuck with Louis XIV regimes, and the Germans would have never elected in the Greens into power. Question is, why are you so fearful of change and new ideas?

    "Neo-con, fascist - hold on folks isn't this a bit strong? I'm just a taxpayer, voter like yourselves."

    Actually, Jane, it isn't. Your kind of slipshod analysis and ignorance of how parliament works to protect the public realm -- when picked up by voters en masse during times of economic and social duress -- can lead a country down the fast, slippery slope towards dictatorships and fascism.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    And by the way

    What is actually 'dangerous' about coalition government?

    Have you never travelled outside North America?

  • quarry bay

    3 years ago

    Michael Byers

    Sorry old chap,no coalition!

    I tell ya all what I think, I think the coalition died,it died for doing the same ol thing.

    Why was the coalition going to hijack goverment? (I know they have a majority and they can)

    The coaltion wasn`t taking over to protect us from invasion,it wasn`t taking over to build a hundred hospitals,end child poverty,the coalition wasn`t taking over to build schools or to provide childcare for everyone,just why was it so important for the group of three to take over?

    The group of three wanted to bailout the auto campanies,forestry companies,give big builders in Quebec and here in BC for roads,bridges.

    What the hell,thats what they all do,spend our money rewarding their freinds,the coalition wants to spend 50 billion a year,the conservatives are going to spend 50 billion a year on infrastuturejunk.

    No,fuck that shit,here the coalition are going to take over and act as every goverment has acted before them,NO, FUCK NO!
    Maybe,just maybe if the coalition had got up and said " Child poverty ends tommorow,food banks will be full,hospitals are going to get built,more health care for seniors,no more toxic drinking water,mouldy housing,TIME TO BUILD A NATION FOR HUMAN RIGHTS,THE PEOPLE`S RESOURCES WILL BE GOING TO THE PEOPLE!

    What I am trying to say,is, THERE AINT NO FUCKING DIFFRENCE!

    Liberals/bloc/Conservatives/NDP/ even the Greens,everyone of the leaders were all prepared to do what all goverments do,feed the same machine,big business,big companies,NO COALITION,they are all the same,spineless,gutless.shoe scrappings called politicians!
    You watch, tens and tens of billions will be spent and not one (net)child will be lifted out of poverty!

    Bring on the independents, lets put 309 independents in parliment and elections every 2 years,if you screw up,yout out!

  • Jane Doe

    3 years ago

    logical Jane, illogical Jane

    Westie: - presume you don't mind me calling you that - you seem to feel more comfortable appending and "ie" to names.

    My reading is fine - you didn't spot it was a play on your choice of subject wording. You really should lighten up.

    "Have I traveled outside of N. America" - what ever made you ask that question - many many times. Last month I was in Laos and Cambodia - now there are some truly corrupt governments. We should thank our lucky stars.

    Alda:

    Your disdain for the man in street, the voter amazes me. Suggesting they are easily led down the street, the "slippery slope" etc by my kind of analysis - how complete your arrogance is.

    They voted and chances are if they have to vote again in the Spring you will likely be even more disappointed in them.

    World opinion is that Canada has managed its economic house better than many. And the banks are also viewed as better than many.

    The US has imploded, and as major trading partners we are now starting to feel the shock waves. That is no reason to hand over the reins to an opportunistic band of halfwits.

    The federal NDP, however much you would like to see them in power, have no chance of governing this country. The people have spoken, and will speak again. You need to listen.

    The coalition is opportunistic politics plain and simple. Arrogance on a grand scale, which is maybe why it appeals to you.

  • quarry bay

    3 years ago

    Missed something

    When one smokes too much MARY JANEDOE they start to dribble!

  • ME2

    3 years ago

    That ain't great prose.....

    So lay off the whiskey, fella.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    Because you don't seem to realize

    How well coalition governments serve much of the world.

    I don't add ie to anyone's name. Ever.

    Perhaps I could repeat your little list of thing you learned from realisticman the last time you were here:

    Thank you R-man - that really clears up the rules for me. So the good guy, bad guy stuff looks like this:
    Big business - bad
    Big union - good
    Privatization - don't mention
    Charity - bad
    Big charity - really bad (must have stolen something along the way and are now looking to give just a teeny bit back )
    Government workers - underpaid saints
    Campbell/Harper - fascists?
    BC economy - worse than 3rd world
    Bill Gates, Oprah - or in fact anyone with a net worth more than $5 - bad
    US - don't get me started
    5000 page publications by some left wing nutbar - really really good to the point that it must be forced down the throats of the unwashed.
    Dr Day - the new satan
    So I think I can work within these guidelines.
    Thanks again R-man for opening my eyes to this jungle

    Now, who was calling whom names?

  • G West

    3 years ago

    And my name for Harper

    Is Pee Wee Rambo, by the way.

    Do you read French?

    If you do I'll provide the source for that one too.

  • Luke Skywalker

    3 years ago

    Ahhhh... the Wonderful World of A Coalition Government

    Ontario and Quebec Centric... just like the Trudeau Liberals and the Mulroney PC's, which created a vacuum here in the West for the Reform/Canadian Alliance... Remember their "West Wants In" battle cry?

    Now let's look at the seat make-up of a so-called Coalition Government (although it will never happen):

    Quebec: 49 BQ, 14 Lib, 1 NDP - 64 seats;
    Ontario: 38 Lib, 17 NDP - 55 seats;

    For a total of 119 seats;

    Maritimes: 17 Lib, 4 NDP;

    Now a total of 140 seats;

    The Cons also have 55 seats in Ontario and that will put pressure and focus upon the Libs in a coalition government to garner those seats back from the Cons in the next federal election. More central Canadian gravitational pull for the so-called coalition.

    And the West? It's the Con's hotbed of seats... where seats are likely to be lost by the purported coalition parties in a future election as a result.

    And posters here want a coalition, which will NOT be beneficial either financially or politically for the West... and which will likely suffer the same consequences as it did under the Trudeau Libs and the Mulroney PC'S? Too funny. And it ain't gonna happen.

    Unfortunately, with all of this the talk of coalition government, the Cons numbers keep rising in the West and here in BC. And the NDP's numbers here in BC are falling faster than the Libs. Go figure.

  • quarry bay

    3 years ago

    Me2

    You talking to me? I won`t walk away from a dispute but...was the coalition cause worthy? Seems to me that the coalition goverment wanted things to be the same,prop up an economy that has been seeing the rich get richer the poor get poorer.
    The great revolution is to maintain the status quo?You must be the same type of idiots who feel good about the Campbell gas tax,look how green I am,I pay the gas tax.
    Whiskey,bring it on,is that your revolution,saving the tax dollars for political parties or saving 50.00 an hour jobs for flunkies that probably aren`t qualified to operate an elevator,have you seen those assembly lines?
    I will join the revolution,now go find a cause worthy of such shennanigans.

  • Fish-counter

    3 years ago

    storm in a teacup

    Forget the rant, "coalitions are not democratic". That just speaks volumes for the ignorance of the ranter. Coalitions are democratic, and whatever happens in Ottawa, so be it. Suck it up all you politician wannabees.

    Even the war in Afganistan is passe. I want a government in Ottawa that is not rabidly pro-Israeli. I am sick of seeing Israelis murdering Palestinians by the bushel and having my government support them. I don't support war in any guise, and I don't like seeing civilians get slaughtered by a modern army with the best weapons that American money can buy.

  • Latarnik

    3 years ago

    Coalition with whom?

    I submit that Coalition with a traitors who want to break up Canada to either become a part of France, Cuba or Communist China, or whoever gives better sponsoring scam, is a sham.
    Coalition with a fringe parties supported by the trade unions of parasites from civil service and workers of auto makers they bankrupted is a best way to turning Canada into Soviet Union. One vote once in the lifetime.
    If you do not like it?
    Off to Yukon Archipelago!
    We will teach you respect for Socialism.

  • Skywalker

    3 years ago

    Your kidding right, Jane.

    Quote "That is no reason to hand over the reins to an opportunistic band of halfwits."

    You mean like the halfwits who got us into this mess, don't you?

    And "opportunistic politics plain and simple. Arrogance on a grand scale, which is maybe why it appeals to you" well that really sounds like Harper to me. His arrogance before Christmas reached a grand scale and my goodness "opportunistic politics" trying to govern like you have a majority and when the opposition says no thanks, going to the Gov. Gen. to get your arse pulled out of the fire. Such noble motives. The appointing 18 party hack senators at $130,000 a year, yeah all sound pretty opportunistic to me. "Which is maybe why it appeals to you".

  • Fish-counter

    3 years ago

    The use of the word "traitors" is itself treachery

    This is not the first time we have heard the Bloc Quebecois described as 'traitors'. That statement is in itself an act of treason. The BQ were democratically elected in the same way the people of BC elected our MP's.

    The U.S. constitution is set up so that any state that cecedes is automatically declaring war on the rest. Canada is not the U.S.

    What the fogged-up heads of BC need to understand is the world is not just a bigger version our province and people who disagree with them are not necessarily evil. The Quebecois are entitled to cecede if they really want to. It is not treachery to suggest that they are unhappy with the way this country is run.

    If the Liberals, NDP and the BQ can agree to form a coalition, so be it. If the microcephalics have never seen a coalition government before, this is where you get your education. Harper is trying to pretend he is in a majority position and he is not. He should be trying to form his own coalition, dammit. By acting like an idiot, he is the one committing treachery.

  • alive

    3 years ago

    Not that easy a job

    This quote intriques me:
    "saving 50.00 an hour jobs for flunkies that probably aren`t qualified to operate an elevator,have you seen those assembly lines?"

    I bet most of you people who post here are sitting at a desk somewhere getting paid to work, but instead are engaged in writing to places like this---ehh? hit a nerve?

    People on those production lines have to work 59 minutes out of every hour!

    It is dull work, no doubt, but requires constant atttention to avoid getting behind or having an accident.
    How would you like a job with those conditions? No handy phone or computer, no time to gossip at the watercooler!
    Think about it and tell me why assembly-line workers do not deserve a good renumeration.

    At one time I did some work like that, but that was in the good old days when a work hour was 50 minutes, meaning I got 10 minutes every hour to refresh myself.
    What can you do in one minute?

  • Urban Sprawl

    3 years ago

    Get over it!

    The coalition is dead - unless Harper is even dumber than he looks, and deliberately provokes it back to life.

    Ignatieff will not revive it unless he is forced to, to the point where there is absolutely no other option. You know that, everybody knows that.

    So move on. Fantasy does not produce effective politics.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    Urban Sprawl

    Are you suggeting Harper has produced 'effective' politics?

    Cause if you are, I think your little aphorism about 'fantasy' can be equally turned back on you.

    We are in this mess - the government having been suspended - precisely because Stephen Harper lives in a fantasy land.

  • Urban Sprawl

    3 years ago

    Fantasy

    You miss my point entirely. If we want to get rid of Harper and the Conservative plague that is gripping Canada, we need to be hard-headed realists about the political environment we are operating in.

    Events have moved on since the coalition surfaced as a possibility. It's time to get over it. We need to assess the situation as it is, not as we fantasize it to be.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    I disagree

    The coalition and its objectives are as relevant today as they were in early December.

    And, it still represents a far larger number of H of C seats than the Conmen do...

    As I said, Harper is the fantasist - and, for what it's worth, I could equally validly claim things are a lot worse now because of Harper and his childishness.

    Events have moved on all right and nothing has been done about them. The fantasy is that it doesn't make a difference who runs the country.

    Harper is certainly hard-headed - and that's why things are as they are.

    The fantasy is why anyone believes anything else.

  • quarry bay

    3 years ago

    Alive

    Float all wages up,no 6.00 starter wage,no to a minimum that has been frozen for a decade,carpenters and other trade`s workers get less than half of auto assembly workers.
    The coalition in my opinion didn`t have a revolutionary cause,what is the coalition cause? Save the auto worker,corporate tax cuts,bailouts,same old same old,protect the status quo,the status quo that all of you complain about!
    More rich getting richer,poor getting poorer,more child poverty,unaffordability,families shrinking,no one can afford one.

    I will join the revolution,show me a just cause besides "We must save the tax-payer funded subsidies to political parties"

    Feed the goddam hungry children,replace mouldy housing,water supplies,health care,childcare,senior`s care,stop urban sprawl,save animal/fish species,ban all products from SLAVE NATIONS!

    There are many good causes but what was the coalition urgency---Save the investors!Save the auto workers! Save the banks,Save those kind, caring about workers forestry outfits!What a joke!

    Harper is a bafoon,liberals are bafoons,Greens/NDP --They are all ready to blow off any platform to protect the status quo!
    Give me a reason to support the revolution,besides 50 billion $ to auto and forestry!

  • realisticman

    3 years ago

    Could'a been fun

    You say you want a coalition
    Well, you know
    We all want to change the world
    You tell me that it's evolution
    Well, you know
    We all want to change the world
    But when you talk about destruction
    Don't you know that you can count me out
    Don't you know it's gonna be all right
    all right, all right

    You say you got a real solution
    Well, you know
    We didn't love the plan
    You ask me for a contribution
    Well, you know
    We're doing what we can
    But when you want money
    for people with minds that hate
    All I can tell is brother you have to wait
    Don't you know it's gonna be all right
    all right, all right
    Ah

    ah, ah, ah, ah, ah...

    You say you'll change the constitution
    Well, you know
    We all want to change your head
    You tell me it's the institution
    Well, you know
    You better free you mind instead
    But if you go carrying pictures of chairman Jack
    You ain't going to make it with anyone, you know that
    Don't you know it's gonna be all right
    all right, all right
    all right, all right, all right
    all right, all right, all right

  • G West

    3 years ago

    'Chairman Jack?'

    Is that wishful thinking realisticman?

    Far as I know, we've got enough 'chairmen' now with Pee Wee Rambo in harness.

    Did you read the Newsweek piece on what's likely upcoming in Afghanistan?

    http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Newsweek_features_Losing_Afghanistan_in_international_0925.html

    You might want to have a look at what 'Chairman' Pee Wee is likely to have to keep making up lies about in 2009.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    And when you're done

    You can follow up with this:
    http://www.newsweek.com/id/177374

    By Andrew Bacevich - you can look up his credentials.

  • alive

    3 years ago

    red herrrings

    Q Bay:
    I am all for upgrading the lower wages, but I do resent the way you smear the assembly workers!
    It has been custom for many years that labour agreements often contain higher wages for those workers who are doing specialized tasks and exposed to danger.
    It is recognized that being on duty constantly is very fatiguing, and 59 minutes out of 60 is about as intense as humanly possibly.
    Now if you will acknowledge this fact, then we can discuss what the coalition may or may not be good for.

  • realisticman

    3 years ago

    Afghanie Mash

    Sometimes Harper must wonder why the Liberals ever took Canada into that mess. That's probably why Stephen Harper's going to pull us out. I still feel empathy with the struggles of the schoolchildren and the women. I also cannot take religious extremism. Maybe, as your cited writer notes, we should have long-range bombers for targeted hits when satellite surveillance shows the need. Zebulon, above, is quite categorical in his opinion, what? You've read almost everything, did Ignatieff specifically address Afghanistan in Blood and Belonging?

  • G West

    3 years ago

    Categorical...not really

    And not very definitive or well-sourced.

    Still, anyone can have an opinion.

    I'll take Byers's views thank you.

    It will take a lot less than 3 years before we're all ready to fall in step behind Bacevich, in my view.

    Ignatieff's theses are mostly based upon his work with the Kurds, as I recall...and, given that Galbraith has walked the same trails and come to different conclusions I think I'll pass on Michael I as a foreign policy expert.

    See August 17 2007 issue of the New York Review of Books.

    The real problem is, as I said earlier, Pakistan...and every month the war continues in Afghanistan the situation there will get worse.

    My view: Just get rid of Pee Wee and maybe we can claim a mulligan in country. I’d even be prepared to suffer a couple more years of Conmen in power if they dumped Harper – a view a surprising number of my Conservative friends seem to be coming around to these days.

  • quarry bay

    3 years ago

    Alive

    I am not dumping on auto assembly workers,my parents mom and pop electronics repair and sales shop was put out of business by the race to the bottom, 30 years ago TVs cost 1000.00 $ cars were like 8 to 10 thousand$----

    Now the electronic repairs are toast,there is no money in sales,do you know how much skill is required to read eletronic schematics?
    A heck of lot more skill than assembly workers,where was my parents bailout?Meat cutters in California a decade ago made on average 20.00 per hour,now it pays 9.00 per hour,all caused by cheap labour!

    Where are my wild salmon so I can do salmon charters? where is everyone`s bailout?
    So who is gonna get get bailed out,Ontario,Quebec--The big three need to turn into the surviving two!

    Lets just have another election!

    I have thought about the coalition,then I threw up, what was their cause,anything noble? child poverty,noooo--homelessness,noooo---crime reduction,nooooo---health care,noooooo

    No,the coalition idea was fine,except for one big problem,the status quo,the coalition wanted things to return to before the wallstreet rip-off set in.

    Well things weren`t very good,Canada has been going down hill for decades,more crime,poverty,working poor,reductions in health care,quality of everything has been going backwards!

    So until the Coalition decides to take on a honerable cause besides worrying about people who gambled in the market,because that`s what the market is,GAMBLING!

    No lets give giant tax breaks to companies that have raked in billions over the last few years!
    So what else is the coalition going to do,more tax cuts to the wealty,more reduced services,the answere is always reduce taxes!

    Well I sorry,it`s not good enough,the rich are getting richer,poor get poorer and losing services!
    I am not going to play this game called race to the bottom.

    There is not one stinking political party worthy of a vote,coalition included,find that worthy platform,find a cause,stop following the USA`s lead in bailing out the theives that have lead us down this path!
    Everyone of you that buy Chinese,malaysian,etc etc or cheap goods from wall from these slave nations are causing the problem! You want to save the economy,BUY CANADIAN!

  • quarry bay

    3 years ago

    Do you think.....

    your lifting someone out of poverty by buying something made in China,your wrong,they are staying in poverty and your putting more Canadians into poverty.

    I was extra foods before christmas, a 21 inch flat screen TV for 69.00$

    Here a TV gets built,assembled in China,packaged,shipped accross the Pacific ocean,unloaded,trucked out,put on a ferry and now unloaded at extra foods and sold for 69.00$, well who could ever repair that TV, NO ONE.
    A race to the bottom,cars need to stay expensive,BIG flat screen TVs need to cost 4000.00
    Our lumber, Campbell ships our lumber to China,it gets milled and shipped back cheaper than we can mill it for.

    You people better wake up and realize between wall street ripping us off and the Asian Spiral to hell we are screwing ourselves.
    Does the coalition need a platform--Here is just one idea!

    No imported goods from any country that doesn`t have employment benefits,Worker compensation for injmuries and pays a liveable wage,period!

    That one move would empty wallmarts shelves and free them up for Canadian goods!
    Are you all blind!

  • dorothy

    3 years ago

    Nope

    "No imported goods from any country that doesn`t have employment benefits,Worker compensation for injmuries and pays a liveable wage,period!

    That one move would empty wallmarts shelves and free them up for Canadian goods!
    Are you all blind!"

    Didn't you see my quest for a can-opener made in Canada some time ago, and Realistic helped me out. Real quality, too. That has to be the condition. For many, many years, Denmark had a campaign going: 'Buy Danish, when it is best'. Crappy goods that fall apart, built-in obsolescence is a crime, no matter where
    on Earth it is produced.

    The deal is, that every one of us has never more power in his or her hand than when we hold our consumer dollar, trying to decide how to spend it. That is when we can shape our own destiny. So sad, that many, many people only fasten their eyes on the little dumb smiley-face and its jubilantly announced 'rollbacks'.

    There is a big job to be done, by parents and teachers, to make it clear that there is a lot more to 'smart buying' than just the number of dollars and cents one parts with.

  • sirjohna

    3 years ago

    off topic

    hey, the roads are clear of snow. shouldn't chudnovsky be out counting potholes?

  • realisticman

    3 years ago

    He's out...

    ...and working on a study that definitively shows that little tiny cars with more than two passengers actually help sweep asphalt crumbles back into potholes, whereas BMWs and larger cars with only the driver on board are responsible for creating the holes.

  • zalm

    3 years ago

    tunesmith

    You say you want a coalition...

    Very clever, R'man. Definitely your magnum opus on this site. Now here's your next assignment - "Bomb Gaza" to the tune of "Barbara-Ann". How quickly can you punish copyright and common sense?

  • zalm

    3 years ago

    Revisionist history from incompetents

    "Sometimes Harper must wonder why the Liberals ever took Canada into that mess. That's probably why Stephen Harper's going to pull us out."

    Actually he doesn't. He simply praises the stars every day that he wasn't in power when Bush wanted Chretien to go into Iraq with him, and when Jean wouldn't, Cellucci threatened Canada with all sorts of dire consequences so that Canada's support for Afghanistan became the payoff to get him to shut up and not close the border to Canadian trade. Harper freely admits we've have been trapped in Iraq AND Afghanistan now if he was in power.

    http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/CanadaVotes/News/2008/10/03/6960131-cp.html

    But that's OK. I'll believe he's going to get us out now...... when I see the last soldier come home. I'm sic'n'tired of bodybags, now more so, what with a friend's son now serving over there. It seems he's all excited about "kicking sand nigger butt". I wonder who put that idea into his head?

  • zalm

    3 years ago

    Off the wall

    EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULTS -- TYEE MODERATOR

    Naw, if you're not up on Chudnovsky, he's out trying the rescue the homeless from Stock-boy who's busy combing the alleys and byways of Kelowna for homeless scroungers looking for a cardboard box and a bite to eat, and dragging them into his church for a rousing chorus of "Hallelujah! Praise the Lord!" and then rushing them out the door in time for the next batch.

    Can't you hear his Stock-ness now?

    "Food? Naw, we ain't got no food in this heah church, less'n you count the wafer and the wine, but that's only fer God-fearin' folk, which you clearly are not, or else you wouldn't be a pore dumpster-diver."

    Ahhhh, the spirit of Christmas from the spirit of the Grinch.

    Come to think of it, don't you live in Kelowna? You don't live in Vancouver, that's for sure. The snow's still here big-time.

    Say hi to Stock-boy next time you're gnawing on a dino-bone together, will ya?

  • realisticman

    3 years ago

    zalm

    I never liked Barbara Ann. Always felt it sounded like a frat party that had OD'd on beer and sugar. Here's a shot though:

    And did those feet in ancient time
    Walk upon Zion's mountains green
    And was the holy lamb of God
    On Palestine's pleasant pastures seen

    And did the countenance divine
    Shine forth upon those clouded hills
    And was Jerusalem builded here
    Around those two semitic tribes

    Bring me my pen of gleaming gold
    Bring me my paper, at least a quire
    Bring me my doves o'clouds unfold
    Bring me the treaty, now they tire

    I will not cease from mental fight
    Nor shall my pen sleep in my hand
    'Til we have built Jerusalem
    With Jew & Arab hand in hand
    'Til we have built Jerusalem
    With both at peace upon that land

  • alive

    3 years ago

    new mentality

    Listen Q Bay
    I had to fold my own manufacturing business because Boxstores could import and sell completed Brassbeds for less than what the raw materials cost me!
    As I see it competition is competition, whether is is from here or Taiwan.

    Protectionism is not the answer, the auto industry realizes that too (by now).

    What would be good is if we could work on safe conditions for workers world wide, and hopefully improve on the differences in wages.
    The first step as I see it is to stop the greed that allows for workers to be shut up in escape proof firetraps!
    That requires a world government, not all the small individual fiefdoms that our great leaders want.

    The idea that workers here in Canada should see wage drops simply does not cut it, people are barely able to provide as is!

    We must think globally!
    If we cannot tolerate the wars going on, why can we tolerate that workers are deprived?

    We need a new mentality, and maybe the first step there is to get the media on our side, and I mean by whatever means it takes!
    This is the way a revolution has to take place these days!

    The neo-cons know that and have conveniently bought up all the available media.
    We need to wrest it away from them!

    Yeah the Tyee is good, but who reads it?

  • quarry bay

    3 years ago

    Alive

    There is NO WAY TO COMPETE, how can north american workers compete with workers that make 2.00$ a day?

    You want competition,China doesn`t need Canada as a consumer, China has a workforce of 800 million workers, China can make all the products for all the world.
    My point with the auto sector is there are many talented,skilled,hard working groups that are working for 1/3 of the wage of the auto sector,do I want a race to the bottom,no I don`t but maybe the auto sector shouldn`t be bailed out,no one else is getting bailed out
    Anyways,there is no way to compete on a national level,maybe in a niche market you can, how do you compete when the wage levels in Canada(low wages)are 50 to 100Xs more than the wage in China?

    Obviously you don`t care about Chinese sweat shops,China can sell their garbage to themselves, there have been many articles,even here at the Tyee about how WAGES HAVE FALLEN FOR THE LAST 2 DECADES,we are slowly turning into a peasent nation, I am trying to stop it,your not.
    Yes Alive--It is happening here,did you hear about the imported workers that worked on the Canada line/Golden ears bridge?
    Alive,you would be okay with me owning a dozen slaves that work for food,that way I can put all my competition out of work! Do you think the Chinese are spending 500.000.00 for an apartment in China? The average chinese worker makes 1000.00 Canadian a year! You need a wage level of 100.000.00 a year for a couple to buy and live in BC.

    You watch,Obama will be going protectionism,OPEN YOUR EYES ALIVE, Canada did just fine before the slave nations got involved. only a FOOL would believe that we or the USA can compete with countries that get 100 to 200 workers for the price of one Canadian worker!

  • alive

    3 years ago

    Not what I said

    OK Q Bay, --- I give up!

    The point of a discussion is that you bother to read my input!

    Here is the only example I will give you to see that you do not grasp my point:
    "The first step as I see it is to stop the greed that allows for workers to be shut up in escape proof firetraps!"
    Now, why would you say I do not care about Chinese sweatshops?

    We are on the same page, give your head a shake here.
    Our difference is that I do not believe in aiming for the lowest common denominator.

  • sirjohna

    3 years ago

    zalm

    for a few seconds i was a little confused by your post, b/c when i see the word stockboy i think of dennis streifel (sic). are you old enough to remember him zalm? shelf-stocker at your local safeway, shop steward as well. believe it or not, this next part is also true. became the minister of children and families in the disastrous ndp gov't of the 90's. fit in well with dave 'gov'ts can do whatever they want' zirnheldt. that was when the unions ran the province to near ruin. thank god that will never happen again. by the way, i hear chudnovsky, the worst president of the bctf ever, is being replaced in his riding by jinny sims, the second worst.

  • quarry bay

    3 years ago

    Alive

    I am not trying to bug you, we haven`t had a coalition goverment in ages,what is the goal of the coalition? To act like Americans by going into debt,bailing out the wealthy.
    Right now I am in limbo when it comes to federal political parties,I can`t vote for anyone,if we are going into more debt shouldn`t we be doing it to improve society,Canadian society, child poverty,hungry kids in Canada before the phoney credit crunch was about 15% nationaly and 23% in BC, shouldn`t that be something to form a coalition over? The east Vancouvers/druggy twilight zones need to end now! Food banks should be goverment stocked.
    Housing,cheap affordable housing can be built,rental housing,subsidized housing,seniors housing,these causes are worthy to shout loud about,scream,pull your hair out over these issues! Do any of you think bailing out a bank or auto sector or building a bridge in Quebec will change any of these facts?

    Just listen to all of them(politicians) we were booming in Canada,all was well,the political parties want the status quo.

    I will join the coalition as soon as they say 50 billion of new spending every year for social housing,food banks,child poverty,health and social programs,whatever it takes,the cycle of human erosion in Canada ends tommorrow.

    I didn`t hear that from the coalition,I heard money for banks,auto,and money for the big builders that already have big money, NO MORE TRICKLE DOWN ECONOMY,TIME FOR A TRICKLE UP ECONOMY,GIVE THE MONEY TO THE UNDERCLASS!

    P.S. The Obama stimulus package is expected to run over a TRILLION dollar deficit every year for the next 4 years,thats 4 trillion,so do we as Canadians run a 400 billion$ deficit to prop up the wealthy.

    Could you imagine that much money spent from the bottom up,it is worth a try!

  • Frank

    3 years ago

    sirjohna

    If your teacher would just allow you to pass your test and graduate I imagine you'd quit your lifelong fight with that profession.

    Maybe this June will finally see you wear the cap and gown eh? If not, it'll be the teacher's fault, again.

    Good luck Elliot!

  • Frank

    3 years ago

    Jane

    Quite the battle cry you Conservatives have there.

    "62% is undemocratic!"

    I think I speak for everyone when I say the rest of us love Stockwell Day's math as much as you.

    Oh, and I love his theories about earth and dinosaurs too. I just wish he was on tv more.

  • Frank

    3 years ago

    MLA credentials

    God knows we wouldn't want a worker to be in gov't. Unless they work in a Kelowna furniture store in which case we should make them premier, over and over, and his son too.

    Because everyone knows selling a couch (or a used car) is a skill far better suited to government than stocking a shelf.

  • sirjohna

    3 years ago

    frank

    nice to hear from you frankie-boy, but i'm afraid you're a little off again, as usual.
    no gripe with the teaching profession, just the bctfascists b/c they have held my kids ransom so many times. and graduating wasn't much of a problem, either from high school, bcit, or ubc.

  • alive

    3 years ago

    Not necessarily a bail-out?

    As I said Q Bay, we are basically on the same page.
    I did not endorse any bailout, did you notice?

    But I do believe in asking for what is possible, and if the NDP has to compromise on social issues in order for a coalition to happen, that is still better than having Harpo in charge.

    My little firm went under and I did not think of asking anyone to help me, because I knew that my problems came from not having sufficient credit to make huge purchases and get a better price on my raw materials.

    Every manufacturer has to face his own problems, a bailout is not meant to help any individual industry, but a band-aid to stop the wholesale recession that would happen, should they have to close down!
    That is one strategy that has some merit, even if it upsets me personally.

    So far everyone has blamed the big three for poor marketing, for pushing large uneconomical vehicles, but let us be fair:
    even back in the seventies when big was good, Chrysler introduced a small Hatchback called the Simca,
    it was universally rated as one of the best from Europe, but nobody bought it!
    I had a choice of 20 or more that they were selling at cost in Vancouver.

    So, what conclusions should Chrysler have drawn?

    The buyer is the king, maybe we should blame ourselves for continually making poor choices?

  • quarry bay

    3 years ago

    We need a new approach

    All I am saying is the status quo is not working,the trickle down economy isn`t working,this coalition wants to continue on with the trickle down,well I don`t want to be trickled on anymore!

    Give money,housing,oppertunity to the underclass and they will spend,that will get the economy going if ALL CANADIANS can buy stuff.
    Harper,ya he is a baffoon,but so is the coalition,they have the same platform,they want to do what Harper is doing,maintain the status quo.
    When are we as a nation going to make life better for the underclass? When?we just went through a massive profit taking by Canada,by industry,by the upper class and things got worse for most Canadians,if we can`t improve society in the boom years how are going to improve society in a recession?
    We need a new approach,this coalition,at this time has not offered up change,more status quo.
    You know what is coming next? Tax cuts,along with service cuts,just like Campbell,bribe the wealthy while cutting service and programs to the poor.
    Time for the needy to get bailed out!

  • sicntired

    3 years ago

    Anything is better than another Conservative government

    I'm glad that someone took the time to explain to the dead heads that we elect individual MP's and the coalition is far more representative of ALL Canadians than Mr.Harper and his reform party coalition.Harper's racist rants about separatists is as disingenuous as most of his other policy stances.He displayed right out of the gate that he doesn't play well with others.Proroguing parliament at a time when action was needed as soon as possible shows that Mr.Harper cares about Mr.Harper to the exclusion of most other Canadians.It was the cowardly thing to do so naturally,he did it.Now he tries to say it's others that are grasping for power.It was Mr.Harper that created this crisis and he should have been a man and seen it through.Not hide behind the Queen whom he professes to dislike so much.Any port in a storm,right Stephen?

  • sunshine coast girl

    3 years ago

    I think the Coalition threat

    did exactly what it should have done.

    Here's the response that I finally got from the Prime Minister. Mind you, it took a while. And he tries to make it appear it was his intention all along. Surprise! I sent the email on November 28 and the response just came today. I figure I did good getting one; usually the PMO just ignores me.

    "Thank you for your correspondence regarding the Parliamentary situation. I have received an overwhelming volume of feedback from Canadians over the past few days and your thoughtful input is greatly appreciated.

    As you know, on my advice, the Governor General agreed to prorogue Parliament on December 4. This decision provides all parties with the opportunity to step back, reflect on recent events and commit to working together to strengthen Canada's economy.

    Canadians have very clearly indicated that they want Canada's government to continue working on its economic agenda. Indeed, on October 14, only two months ago, voters re-elected our Conservative government with a strengthened mandate to lead Canada through these challenging economic times. At the same time, Canadians have also been clear that they do not favour a coalition government that would depend on Quebec separatists and would have no democratic mandate from the Canadian people.

    Parliament will resume on January 26, and the Government's first order of business will be the presentation of a federal budget. In preparation for the budget we will be consulting widely, including with opposition Members of Parliament. They have been invited to bring forward specific proposals and we look forward to receiving their feedback. This consultation is an opportunity for Parliamentarians who want Canada to work to cooperate with each other on solutions, instead of making deals with Members of Parliament who would rather break up the country.

    Please be assured that Canada's Government will continue taking concrete measures to assist our economy in weathering the current storm, and to ensure that Canada will emerge stronger and more prosperous that ever before.

    Sincerely,

    The Rt. Hon. Stephen Harper, P.C., M.P.
    Prime Minister of Canada"

  • Jane Doe

    3 years ago

    need a new approach

    Q-bay I agree with your points about the trickle down and that we need a system in which all the people thrive in good times and all tighten in bad times. I also think your are right on that it will be tax and service cuts - hopefully the tax cuts will focus on the middle and lower tax brackets.

    However getting to that from where we are will need some brilliant minds. I don't think a separatist, a quickly chosen Lib replacement and Jack are not quite the dream team we need.

    The Obama team is looking like the best group to provide a truly new economic order - and even then it's going to be a huge uphill battle. And I see today that they are planning large tax cuts.

    There those like "sicntired" that justify this coalition by saying that the sum of the other three parties seats is greater than that of the Conservatives there they should run the country. That's just nonsense. Would they feel the same way if it was a Liberal minority government.

    Obviously, judging by the voting results and recent poles the NDP will never form a national government here in Canada.

    The kind of numbers they obtain tells us something about the popularity of the points that they are making. So it is wrong that they should have a strengthened representation through a coalition.

    The major parties all need to learn how to play in the sandbox a whole lot better. But to bring down a duly elected government at these crisis times was absolutely unjustified, opportunist and completely irresponsible.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    Thanks for sharing that sunshine coast girl

    Anyone who still thought that the Prime Minister still had any affection for or affinity to the truth should be disabused by reading this letter.

    His misunderstanding of the parliamentary system is profound - either that, or he's a hidebound liar.

    Take your choice - I know what I think.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    I see pee wee isn't the only one

    The idea that the conservative government has any 'mandate' whatever relative to the economic file in this country is utterly risible. That letter should more properly be signed the 'Dictator of Canada'.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    As for Obama and the US

    Perhaps our right wing friends would care to conjure with the implications of China's recent change in 'investment' strategies.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/08/business/worldbusiness/08yuan.html?_r=1&hp

  • zalm

    3 years ago

    Nice text, r'man

    ... even if unattributed. I don't know how well it goes with Beach Boys, but I recall that line from a Charles Parry hymn, Jerusalem, that says the same thing...

    O day of peace that dimly shines,
    through all our hopes and prayers and dreams,
    guide us to justice, truth and love, delivered from our selfish schemes.
    May swords of hate fall from our hands, our hearts from envy find release,
    til by God's grace our warring world
    shall see Christ's promised reign of peace.

    Then shall the wolf dwell with the lamb,
    nor shall the fierce devour the small.
    As beasts and cattle calmly graze,
    a little child shall lead them all.
    Then enemies shall learn to love,
    all creatures find their true accord.
    The hope of peace shall be fulfilled,
    for all the earth shall know the Lord.

    Who wrote it?

  • zalm

    3 years ago

    surgeon eh?

    "for a few seconds i was a little confused by your post, b/c when i see the word stockboy i think of dennis streifel (sic). are you old enough to remember him zalm?"

    I'm old enough to remember the vote in 1975 when the wives of the local Canarim Cadillac drivers up the street said to all and sundry "We have to stick together to defeat that nasty Jew-bastard commie Dave Barrett or this province is finished". And of course they did. And naturally the Socreds immediately repealed all the legislation passed, such as Question Period, the ALR, and ICBC.

    Yep, the NDP sure are evil, and we ought to be able to keep on blaming them for every wart and carbuncle on your ass for another fifty years at least! Bring the used car dealers back - they sure knew how to run a province!

    Mmmmpppphh.... {snicker}..... GUFFAWWWWW!

  • G West

    3 years ago

    Jerusalem

    Words from William Blake's Poem.

    Written in 1804 in a longer prophetic work called 'Milton' it became one of England's, and the Anglican Church's most popular hymns in the version you're familiar with zalm.

    Interestingly enough, some contemporary Anglicans aren't so sure about it these days:

    See:
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3720835.ece

  • realisticman

    3 years ago

    zalm

    Yes, the original was written by William Blake. I just found this Wiki page which is somewhat interesting:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_did_those_feet_in_ancient_time

  • Gray

    3 years ago

    And naturally the Socreds

    And naturally the Socreds immediately repealed all the legislation passed, such as Question Period, the ALR, and ICBC

    Thats not true at least for the ALR and ICBC. The Socreds were dreadful but we can condemn their record with the facts.

  • Frank

    3 years ago

    Jane

    "That's just nonsense. Would they feel the same way if it was a Liberal minority government."

    Stephen Harper (and I assume you) did. His words to the Gov-Gen back in the days of Paul Martin are widely available on the net and in people's inboxes.

    Fact is, the only people that voted for Stephen live in Calgary. Everyone voted only for their MPs and whatever the majority of those elected MPs decide is how it works.

    Whining about it when he's done the same thing only a few years earlier only makes Harper look small.

  • Frank

    3 years ago

    Gray

    zalm was just being sarcastic.

  • RickW

    3 years ago

    sunshine coast girl

    Quote:
    Please be assured that Canada's Government will continue taking concrete measures to assist our economy in weathering the current storm, and to ensure that Canada will emerge stronger and more prosperous that ever before.

    If it doesn't, Harper now has two directions he can point his accusatory finger - either at the opposition for being obstructionist - or at the world for being in a global recession. Or both.

    And on the unlikely chance this recession/depression goes away, you can bet he will take sole credit........

  • zalm

    3 years ago

    Attributions

    Thanks GWest. I was hoping R'man would attribute it as his own work... ;>)

    Blake seems to be a fault in my education - apart from Tiger! Tiger! I don't really remember reading much of him. Very interesting to hear the controversy regarding its excessive nationalism emanates from the home church of the British Royal Navy at Southwark...

    And thank you for the page, R'man. Interesting to see the old text of the hymn and the poem lined up. The one in our hymnal appears to be new text by Charles Daw with part of the old text as an extension.

    It appears to be a common theme in the Christian part of Palestine these days. I just opened up a letter from the conference of churches I belong to with a letter in it from the heads of all the Christian churches in Palestine - Orthodox of all stripes, Maronite, Catholic, Anglican/Episcopalian, Old Catholic, Coptic, Lutheran - the works, all of whom dolefully called for global Christian support for a day of peace and justice on Sunday the 4th, and instead got another hundred sorties, a dozen deaths, and a bunch more rockets. Merry Christmas.

    Sigh.

  • zalm

    3 years ago

    Question period

    There is some doubt however, as to whether the Fiberals have repealed question period but simply forgotten to tell anybody about it in their greased-lightning sitting last fall, or whether they're simply ignoring it.

    Sorry Gray, my sarcasm went over your head. Is now yours going over mine?

  • realisticman

    3 years ago

    zalm

    I never imagined anyone would not immediately recognize it as Blake. I should have said. "Apologies to William Blake." You know the tune;

    "The melody from 1916 is by Charles Hubert Hastings Parry, (1848-1918) and was used for an old poem by William Blake 1757-1827. The entire hymn is always sung. It was especially associated with the Women's Institute and Labour Party conferences."

    audio:
    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/rulebritannia.html#Jerusalem

  • G West

    3 years ago

    Just bad habits coming back to haunt you

    Seems to me I've mentioned several times that you have a tendency to be sloppy when it comes to attribution and giving credit.

  • Rod Smelser

    3 years ago

    MAYBE SCOTT REID GOT IT RIGHT

    Scott "Beer and Popcorn" Reid may well have got it right this time when he advised the opposition parties to take their shot while they have their chance.

    If the Conservatives survive the February budget votes any future defeat of the government will all but certainly require an immediate general election.

    If Ignatieff want's to stop Harper, he has one shot at it. Passing it up for the chance to rebuild his party's coffers and popularity would be to risk the same fate as Dion.

    Layton seems to get this, but Ignatieff not so much.

  • Dan the socialist

    3 years ago

    The latest Compas poll

    The latest Compas poll confirms polling results early in December that the coalition proposal has been disastrous for the New Democrats, who are polling at about 13%.

    ------------

    Well the Nano's poll out today that had Iggy ahead of harper also had the NDP at 19%. So I dunno why you keep saying 13% for as I have not seen one poll state that.

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