Campbell

Knows he is in deep shit,a total rejection of the carbon tax.
The liberal name in BC is mud.

How does Campbell proceed with the carbon tax?
If he goes ahead with the increase he is toast! If Campbell backs off on it,he is toast.
Remember all Campbells speeches about saving the planet,grandchildren,future generations,he can`t back off with out being called the biffest fraudster in BC history(which he is).
Frank,a big win for the NDP,Canada`s soon to be next opposition.

happy

Nope, didn't see a single one. Where'd you see them? On tv or the internet?

Opposition?

Frank, if I recall, a few weeks ago, you were "giddy" about the prospect of being the Opposition.

Are Jack and Olivia measuring the drapes at Stornaway yet? Orange or red, or one or each for each window?

In a democracy ...

Total Coalition votes: 7087066

Green/NDP/Liberal
940684/2516935/3629447

Total Conservative votes: 5204468

Explain to me again why a coalition is not possible, nor the desire of the Canadian people?

Wilf

For a party you claim doesn't "like to lose" you're getting really good at it.

Just remember the meme for next election, Harper is the devil, you're not interested in working with other parties and only the Libs deserve to form gov't based on ancient history.

Because if current trends continue, in 5 years the only people voting Liberal in Canada will be actual Liberal candidates.

happy

It doesn't prohibit it - you can spend $500 without incurring Elections Canada's wrath...more than that you have to register and follow the rules.

I think it's a little rich to criticize Layton for suggesting he was running to be the PM - after all, Dion was saying the same thing and it was just as ridiculous.

Frank

Yes, on TV. Lots of them actually. Way more than the Libs. During mid election they were front and center more than any other party.
Though the Cons, over the course of the entire election probably had the most.

And, third parties can't spend more than 150,000

Nor more than $3000 on a particular candidate....there are also reporting and auditing rules and, the third party has to be disinct and separate from party officials.

happy

I must watch the wrong TV stations - by the way, I heard Ujjal Dosanjh doing radio spots virtually every hour in the 10 days before the election...and I only listen to the CBC

happy

I'm with GWest, I must watch the wrong channels. I know for a fact they didn't play them during Roughrider or Canuck games :)

Luke

Oh, and you gotta keep Kennedy away from your convention :)

Frank and West

Obviously I watch way too much TV...

Haven't seen Lorne around have you?

What happened to Garth Turner last night?

GWest

Thanks G, not much farther to go then :)

Happy

Don`t bet on it, gas back east 80cents a litre,BC gas 1.20 a litre

Campbell`s carbon tax goes to 3.85 cents a litre in july, and it rises to over 7 cents a litre in 2 years--Also Jaccard, Campbell`s climate guy has stated on many occasions that the carbon tax must rise to at least 25 cents a litre to really work!

People no that gas WILL RISE back up,maybe not in 6 months but it will rise and rise up big time.
Happy for you to suggest that people won`t be aware of being ripped off with a carbon tax because the price has lowered at the pump is fool hardy!
Ever see a line up at a gas station for people trying to save 4 cents a litre!

One more thing happy,the reason gas is big time higher here than back east is--

The fact that we DO HAVE A CARBON TAX the gas refiners/gas companies have been given carte blanche permission to gouge!

Remember Dion called Campbell a hero! Now Campbell is trying to play sucky face with conservative voters in BC---The cost of that will be the centrist/green vote Campbell has been chasing.
The problem with chasing one segment then tossing them out to go after a diffrent segment.
Campbell has NO VOTERS LEFT,if Campbell doesn`t back off of carbon taxes he loses his base,if he scraps the Carbon tax he loses the left/center

Add that to the fact that everyone hates him and thats it---HELLO PREMIER JAMES

P.S. I believe most BCers won`t to see Campbell sidelined at the olympics,the masses want to really zing Campbell so zung he will be!

Really?

"Add that to the fact that everyone hates him and thats it---HELLO PREMIER JAMES"

I thought we were supposed to say "Hello Prime Minister Layton" last night?

Toronto Gasoline Prices

"Don`t bet on it, gas back east 80cents a litre,BC gas 1.20 a litre."

I paid $1.10 this evening. Toronto is running about $1.01 at the moment.

http://www.torontogasprices.com/index.aspx?s=Y&fuel=A&area=All+Areas&station=All+Stations&tme_limit=24&site=Toronto&srch=0&list=0

$1.10 - you're kidding

Victoria price = $1.21/litre.....

Superstore, Marine Drive

Superstore Marine Drive and Main, posted price, $1.16, less 6.5 cent per litre discount coupon.

coupons don't count wilfred

The price is uniformly 1.21 in Victoria.

Victoria vs Vancouver

GWest, in my experience gasoline prices in Victoria tend to be higher than in Vancouver. For one thing, the 3.5 cent per litre pump discount does not apply in Victoria. There also seems to be more competition. And the price is always lower late in the day than in the mornings.

I drive a fuel efficient car as little as possible so gas prices are not such a major issue with me as they would be with many other people. Still, we are being gouged by the oil companies because we should not be paying much more than we did year ago which was about $1.01 per litre. With oil at $73 per bbl, we should be at about $0.95 in my opinion.

Agreed on all counts Wilfred

Victorians get no discounts...but they don't have to live in Vancouver - which is, in my view, an enormous plus and well worth 5/6 cents per litre....

carfreed

Since the people you mention have nothing to actually discuss with anyone their own websites like Free Dominion or the National Post are boring for them. I guess it gets a little old to tell Jonathan Kay he's right over and over.

So because of that any site where there's people they don't agree with and you don't get banned for name-calling become places where conservatives tend to flock to.

By the way

I don't mean to imply that Harper is a dictator relative to the Canadian population - he was democratically elected.

I think he's a "dictator" relative to the way he runs his caucus and his party.

Unlike the other federal parties, the monolithic and unquestioning nature of the Conservatives is pronounced and troubling...openness and taking responsibility was another big loser in this election.

Just wanted to be clear.

Whew

Thanks for the clarification GWest. For a minute there I though that some crazies dreams had come true.

Any idea why the NDP lost 3.4% of the popular vote in Ontario? Didn't go to the Libs. Now that Jack didn't quite become Prime Minister do you think that he'll do the honorable thing? I hope not. Can Jack work with Bob Rae? That'll be an interesting mix, Jack yapping away about all those old saws that seem so passé and Bob shrieking back that a vote for the NDP would be a wasted one. Must be lots of bad blood there. I look forward to that.

When it comes to Liberals who used to be progressive

I think Bob Rae isn't the best example of a screaming loon.

For that I present the esteemed former premier of BC, Ujjal Dosanjh and his post election acceptance speech/rant.

Now that's bad blood!

G West...

Methinks ya got it wrong.

Glen Clark... and the knives came out before the deck incident. Nasty... that one.

The NDP can play hard like the rest of 'em. Ooooppps I forgot. Future federal Liberal Dosanjh was also among their ranks.

luke - get with the program

The NDP has had excellent success at the provincial level and are rated the BEST stewards of the economy...or had you forgotten that inconvenient fact?

It's funny, because I was sure Frank pointed out that Finance Department study to you ages ago...

"...a Finance Department analysis of federal and provincial governments over a 22-year period reveals a very different picture: New Democrat Governments have balanced their books 46 percent of the time while Conservative governments have only had 35 percent balanced budgets and Liberal governments 21 percent".

Now, why does the belief persist that New Democrats do not have credibility on the economy? Can we put that nasty rumour to bed - once and for all?

Now, back to the current case - So far as I know, Glen Clark isn't running for the Liberals, federal or provincial, is he?

Nice try though to shift the focus to the provincial scene.

I was talking about the way little paul knifed Jean Chretien.

Now I know the federal Liberals are your all time faves - but I didn't think even you would have forgotten that.

The Comedy Routine Again....

Not in BC. LOL

The period between 1991 and 2001 saw a doubling of BC's debt, high unemployment and people leaving other jurisdictions to seek better employment opportunities.

Nobody forgets that.

Who are you kiddin'?

Mustel, April, 2001:

Liberal - 72%
NDP - 18%

http://www.mustelgroup.com/pr/20010422.htm

Those BC voter preference numbers certainly debunk any comedic assertation that the NDP are the BEST stewards of the economy. ROFLMAO

Two years before that (June, 1999) Mustel had another BC sounding:

http://www.mustelgroup.com/pdf/pressrelease/June99.pdf

With numbers like that... Hey Yuk Yuk's Comedy Club is looking for good stand-up routines. Interested? :)

BTW...

To re-iterate, BC's public debt doubled from ~$17 billion in 1992 to ~$34 billion in fiscal year ending March 31, 2001.

Mostly tax-payer supported debt. And how did that happen? Through annual government operating deficits. Simple.

Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice...

Luke

The Liberals have tripled the debt since they've been in power. Its now closing in on 100 billion.

But then I know they don't count spending on infrastructure as debt.

And yes the StatsCan study included BC, because StatsCan considers BC to be part of Canada. They believe its just west of Alberta, perhaps others don't believe that fact either.

Whereas the Liberals have only balanced the budgets provincially 22% of the time in Canada over the last couple of decades. Fancy that.

Mustel

Funny thing about percentages, they're out of 100.

Healthcare - Not Deteriorated - 68%
Creating jobs - Not Deteriorated- 60%
Managing Gov. Spending - Not Deteriorated - 47%
Stimulating Economy - Not Deteriorated -
56%

As for Mustel, they kinda blew that poll the day before the election in Kamloops thing didn't they? They were so far out their results weren't even within the margin of error. But I guess they were within the "margin of wishful thinking"

Luke

"Hey Yuk Yuk's Comedy Club is looking for good stand-up routines. Interested? "

Now how is it you know Yuk Yuk's is hiring?

Frank...

I believe that you are arriving at many wrong conclusions.

Not to rehash many things, but some tidbits from the BC Public Accounts fiscal year ending March 31, 2008 signed off by the BC Auditor General:

Better reporting than the Rest of Canada:

Infrastructure:

Credit Reporting Agencies:

If ya don't remember, the credit rating agencies (Moody's, S & P, DBRS) down-graded BC's credit rating on several occasions during the NDP's term in the 1990's.

Today, BC's credit rating stands at the top of the heap (AAA, Aaa) alongside Alberta and Canada. 'Nuff said.

Mustel...

The Kamloops poll with the smaller 300 sample size and a large undecided?

With their large sample BC polls, they have been bang on. If I were you, I wouldn't ignore 'em. ;)

http://www.mustelgroup.com/accuracy.asp

Luke

You avoided the actual numbers. Its over 90 billion. Credit agencies think we're good for it.

Mustel

I'm sure Mustel knew what the margin of error was when they polled only 300 people. Yet their results weren't within the margin of error that they themselves stated.

Frank...

Using your curious numbers methodology had the NDP utilized today's GAAP requirements in the 1990's, the numbers could have been an additional $50 billion higher back then.

Ya know, long-term office space contractual obligations, highway-maintenance contracts, private health care home contracts, etc, etc. But I digress.

Something to understand about polling. When were they in the field? In this instance about 10 days before the election.

When were the numbers released? In this case, October 7, one week before the election date at the request of the local media outlets (CFJC TV et al) who commissioned the poll.

The most reliable numbers are from the field in the last week/few days of the campaign, like Mustel's other polls.

As for the poll numbers:

C - 34% (Actual - 46% - + 12% from poll)
NDP - 34% (Actual - 36% - +2% from poll)
Lib - 18% (Actual - 10% - -8% from poll)
Grn - 12% (Actual - 8% -4% from poll)

It appears to me that there was movement during the last week and last few days of the campaign from the Libs and Greens to the Tory candidate.

Certainly the same trend that occurred in BC overall (45%) compared to the BC pollsters avg. (39%)

Luke

So you're saying the NDP owed 84 billion in 2001?

Then where'd that debt go since using the sdame methodology the Sun reported that the Libs created a new 55 billion

Losers _ People and

Losers _ People and environment of Canada.

Losers- People who voted for Harper

Frank...

You are quoting from the evil CanWest Global empire? ;)

Under new GAAP provincial reporting requirements, future contractual obligations must be included for a 10/20 (?) year period.

Case in point: The BC government has long-term leases for office space for its thousands of employees. Every year (actually month) payments are made for basic rent/operating expenses/property taxes.

Always been the case.

You call that debt. Where I come from, it is an annual operating expense included in the annual operating budget. (albeit it's a future contractual obligation for the duration of the term of the lease)

Luke

Yes, I do call future obligations debt.

And according to the Sun, the Libs ran up 55 billion in new "future obligations" on top of what already existed.

Therefore, the debt is now over 90 billion.

Credit ratig agencies...

Luke Skywalker:

Could have been. This is simply nonsense. Luke, you are in true form :)

The same bunch who thought sub-prime mortgages were so great? Consider this prophetic analysis from 2007...

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/05/31/bloomberg/bxinvest.php

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/04/25/business/wbcredit.php

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article3465292.ece

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article2373869.ece

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/property_and_mortgages/article2395243.ece

And DBRS? Theyr'e so bad that they'll rate what even the other two won't.

http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=422946

First, the report did not look exclusively at the BC government. Second, you quote a poll in BC. Remeber, if you can, that the report is not exclusive to BC. Third, voter preference is about perception, but sadly not about reality.

Contractual Obligations

Frank:

The Liberals created 21 billion of that 55 billion for sure, but as for the other 34 billion, it's not clear what portion is the responsibility of the Liberals, NDP, and Socreds, since "contractual obligations" only began to be accounted for in the 2005 Public Accounts.

jimmy_laroux

Thank you for that clarification!

Debt and Contractual Obligations

Luke Skywalker:

You are being disingenuous here. There is no question that some (most?) of that is debt. I believe we've covered this ground before...

luke that study, my friend

It was taken over a 22 year period buddy - including all provincial governments and the feds.

You really ought to read a little closer...

Jimmy....

The BC Auditor General confirms these amounts as "future contractual obligations" and not debt for obvious reasons.

That's like sayin' that a mortgage on one's house is debt but that future mortgage payments (contractual obligations) over a 25-year term are also debt. Not so.

BC taxpayer supported Contractual Obligations (office space, highway maintenace, long-term care homes, etc.:

2009: $3.639 billion (out of likely ~$38 billion budget)
2010: $2.134 billion
2011: $1.911 billion
2012: $1.870 billion
2013: $1.515 billion

In any any event, we have S&P, Moody's, and DBRS that have given BC their highest credit ratings alongside Alberta and Canada.

You obviously don't like that 'cause it's a Liberal government under which the ratings have been achieved. So ya diss 'em??!! :)

Methinks that the BC public ain't gonna buy your dissin'. ;)

G West...

Good! Tell Carole to put it front and centre in the next BC campaign.

BC'ers always look forward to some humour during election campaigns. :)

As long as you're still selling the same soap

We won't have any shortage of humour.

BTW, how do you suppose Campbell's gonna square his little campbell tax thingy with the demise of Dion and the green shift.

Stevo didn't seem all that impressed with carbon taxes did he?

G West...

I agree these centre-left social engineering escapades such as the carbon tax are not to my taste.

That said, on July 1, gas prices were already $1.50/litre. Today as low as 1.07.9 in Abbotsford. The carbon tax is really not on anybody's radar anymore.

Even many green New Democrats are dissappointed with Carole's "Axe the Tax" campaign. But she has a big problem on her hands come election time when the focus will be on the NDP's own environment platform, which states that their carbon taxes "will have a cost to consumers".

No wriggle room there. Hypocrisy at best.

In any event and in today's political enviroment, the environemnt is at the low end of voter's concerns. "It's the economy, stupid".

And there the NDP is weaker than a 90 lb. weakling in BC.

nope sorry luke

It's very much on everybody's radar - and it's going to be more on their radar as the price goes down, not up...of course carbon taxes will have a cost to the consumer - only an idiot like campbell would try to claim they weren't.

Didn't you see all those little white signs along the roads while you were doing your electioneering cruising?

The NDP has the best economic record over the last 22 years all across Canada - and they handled the 90s just fine - the fact is, construction jobs are shutting down all over the province luke and the forest industry is dead.

Campbell is going to rue the day he set his fixed election for May 2009.

The only thing Campbell has going for him is Dion's green chemise - I understand Marissen is having it altered to fit Gordon's somewhat more paunchy frame.

Or perhaps he'll squeeze into that spandex sausage suit he wore to scmooze with lance armstrong and wear the green thingy as a cape.

Maybe we should talk bye elections.

G West...

You obviously did not live in BC in the 1990's (after 1993 to 2001) or were not employed in the private sector.

People were moving to Alberta for employment (high unemployment rate in BC), house prices were on a steady decline after 1993 and for 8 years thereafter, and there was NO consumer confidence.

I mean you're kiddin' right? LOL

Just go back up to my earlier post about the Mustel poll in April, 2001:

Liberal - 72%
NDP - 18%

... and the historical 77 - 2 thrashing that the NDP took. What did Moe Sihota say just prior to the 2001 election?:

Yep, that's what I certainly would call a vote of confidence in the NDP's economic and government fiscal record here in BC. ;)

DID you actually READ what the report studied?

Taken overall, NDP governments had better records than Conservative or Liberal ones over the 22 year period studied.

If the socreds or the liberals had been hit with the same conditions the the NDP had to contend with (not to mention the cuts to federal funding) they'd have done a lot worse - and did a lot worse - taken overall.

As for the Liberal record since 2001 - I'd be really proud of having the worst child poverty record and the next to lowest or lowest Minimum wage in the country.

Oh there's lots of good stuff in Campbell's fiscal record all right - but nothing better than his outright lies about BC RAIL and the carbon tax.

That's gonna be really popular.

Luke

You're trying to spin those billions into saying its just rent for office space. Nice try.

Basically, Gordon asks a buddy to build him a bridge or a hospital or what have you. Buddy agrees as long as his profit is guaranteed.

So then Gordon and Buddy walk into a bank and when the loans officer asks who will be making the payments, Buddy says I will, and when the loans officer asks where he's getting the money, Gordon says that would be me.

To you, that doesn't count as debt, its a P3, its the private sector etc.

Its a shell game Luke, its debt. Quit kidding yourself.

The Liberal record

To have only balanced the budget 22% of the time in the last 22 years is pretty bad. Libs haven't even formed a gov't in Alberta, Saskatchewan or Manitoba in that time. Of course they haven't had much luck in Ontario, Quebec or the Maritimes I guess. Just been one Liberal gov't after another back there that has run deficits.

Probably explains why there's so many easterners working in Alberta?

How's the Liberal gov't in Ontario doing? I keep hearing about the manufacturing sector shutting down. Probably a good chance McGuinty will be running a deficit this year eh?

Debt or not?

Luke Skywalker:

Come on, Luke, I know you're not that stupid. We've discussed this on, what, three previous threads? These contractual obligations include P3s, which are effectively debt. The debt went up when, for example, money was borrowed to build the Millenium Line. The debt did not go up for the RAV Line, since it was a private consortium that took on the debt. The payment that BC makes as a result of this project are the same as it would have made had it financed the project itself. Likely higher, actually.

Oops

That should read "The Provincial Debt did not go up for the RAV Line, since it was a private consortium that took on the debt from building it."

Luke

Calling the carbon tax a left-wing idea? uh uh

Regressive taxation is a feature of the Right. Carbon taxes, sales taxes, tolls, user fees and other regressive taxes are beloved by right-wing gov'ts.

Jimmy...

They are future contractual obligations in terms of future annual payments until which time these assets will revert back into government hands at the end of the P-3 term.

And the Auditor General says:

Call it debt if ya wanna.

In any event infrastructure spending (Rapid transit, BC Hydro dams, etc.) also contains a revenue stream in many instances and one can call 'em "Future Revenue Streams" in the same context as "Future Contractual Obligations".

It's the credit card debt, the dead-weight debt (without any future assets) that was the big problem here in BC during the 1990's.

Borrow so that you can keep afloat and keep the government running because revenue streams are shrinking.

G West...

Man come on. BC was in last place out of every province in Canada in every respect during the 1990's. Something very wrong there.

1. Last in per capita GDP growth for the '92 - 2000 period at 5.3%;

2. In 1998, BC was the only province in Canada where the level of real per capita GDP was actually lower than in 1990.

3. Last in private sector investment growth for the '92 - 200 period at 18%;

4. In fact, from 1994 to 1999, we experienced a net loss of 469 small and medium-sized businesses that moved from BC to other provinces;

5. Average annual take-home pay dropped by $1,738 during the 1990's in BC;

6. Eight consecutive government deficits;

7. Doubling the BC debt from $17 billion to $35 billion;

8. Taxpayer-supported debt increasing from 12.5% to 19.7% of GDP.

9. Debt servicing costs soaring by 45%;

10. Fudge-It Budgets;

11. BC tied Quebec for having the highest tax load in Canada and the last "Tax Freedom Day" in Canada in 2001;

At the end of the day, very late in the game, Premier Dosanjh (poor Ujjal) took over and stated:

Is it no wonder then when Moe Sihota stated prior to the May, 2001 election:

What a wonderful legacy!

It was called the Lost Decade.

http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/11-010-XIB/00506/feature.htm

Luke

The 1990's were a time of restraint. The BC NDP elected to cover the loss in federal transfers by running a deficit. Other provinces cut spending and also ran deficits but in some cases hid it, for example Mike Harris in Ontario.

BC was also the most exposed province to the Asian meltdown, or don't you believe in external factors?

As for the Lost Decade, that was a bs term created by the NDP's opponents.

The same opponents that

1. Tripled the debt,
2. Were handed a balanced budget and then ran up a huge deficit in their first year,
3. Rode a global commodities and housing windfall but blew the money on trinkets
4. Saw the highest child poverty rate in Canada
5. Massive numbers of homeless
6. Was the only province to see wages decline while they were in office.
7. Saddled citizens with innumerable tolls, fees and regressive taxes.
8. Sold off the family silverware through privatizing everything they could.

Garth Turner

He lost, by about 8,000 votes.

CBC has an interactive map at

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canadavotes/map/2008/#137

Luke

Argue with the Finance Department study - argue with the truth - argue with yourself.

As jimmy has pointed out and as Frank has demonstrated, you clearly aren't going to be convinced by anyone.

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story...but don't think you're going to get away with it around here.

Al bundy can spin whatever tales he likes -
Bye.

Reminds me of a conservative commentator on the CBC last weekend. When Kady O'Malley presented the actual figures proving that pee wee had conducted a slash and burn campaign on cultural funding his answer was "Well, if you're going to rely on facts!"

Then he shut up.

Frank...

Won't respond to the rest of your comments... but I believe that the response to this is indicative of the rest. :)

"Disposable Income Per Capita" "Chained to 2002 dollars" from BC Stats:

Year/Income/% Change

1990: $28,282 --
1991: $27,368 -3.2%
1992: $27,078 -1.1%
1993: $26,576 -1.9%
1994: $26,466 -.4%
1995: $26,581 +.4%
1996: $26,282 -1.1%
1997: $26,320 +.1%
1998: $26,436 +.4%
1999: $26,795 +1.4%
2000: $27,726 +3.5%
2001: $27,727 0%
2002: $27,567 -.6%
2003: $27,797 +.8%
2004: $28,687 +3.2%
2005: $29,553 +3%
2006: $30,898 +4.6%
2007: $31,906 +3.3%

In 1990 the disposable income per capita (measured in 2002 dollars) was $28,282.

Clearly, over the NDP's so-called "lost decade of the 1990's" disposable per capita income had declined by 2001 to $27,727.

Only since 2003 has disposable income per capita started to climb again from $27,797 to $31,906 in 2007, a jump of over $4,000 per capita.

http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/DATA/bus_stat/bcea/tab1.asp

The fancy name of PPPs is

The fancy name of PPPs is "accounting gimmicks". The simple one is "fraud" to fill the pockets of the "friends of the government" with endless profits.

PPPs cost far more on the long run either to the taxpayers, or their unfortunate employees.

Government can borrow at lower service charges.

With PPPs the taxpayer has to pay higher interests, then interests on the interests. Does this make sense to anybody?

PPPs also usually pay disgusting minimum wages for part time jobs and there's no accounting on how much they steal from their employees and the public, while their executives are paid better than kings.

Anybody can demand answers and accounting, on where the public money goes from governments, but people who dare questioning, or holding PPPs responsible are immediately slapped with SLAPP suits.

Yet people are still voting for crooked governments involved in this fraud ?

Ed Deak.

Luke

Vancouver Sun, Thursday May 01, 2008 :

"Over this five-year period between 2000 and 2005, B.C. and Quebec were the only two provinces to record a decline. In B.C., a province that experienced higher-than-average employment growth, median earnings for individuals fell 3.4% between 2000 and 2005. Median earnings in Quebec fell by 0.3%."

Luke

9. The BC Liberals have failed on health care and are not trusted on that file as their around the province discussion on privatization told them

10. The increase in long term care beds promised by the Liberals never happened.

11. Kids are dying in gov't care to such an extent even the pro-Liberal media couldn't ignore it.

Luke

12. People can't even fish any more because the Liberals have wiped salmon off the map.

13. Mills closing all over BC due to the Liberal policy of milling the logs across the border instead.

14. Forest companies are allowed to sell land given to them by the public to developers

Luke

15. And I can't wait to see the results of whether the Liberal carbon tax has fixed the environment. When do we find out our emissions have declined, before or after the price of a barrel of oil shuts the energy industry down?

Luke

16. 2006 census data used by StatsCan showed the following as reported by the Vancouver Sun :

"Based on after-tax income data, 13.1% of the total population in B.C., an estimated 521,425 people, lived in low income (the income threshold below which Canadians are estimated to devote at least one-fifth more of their income than the average family to the necessities of food, shelter and clothing) in 2005, higher than the national rate of 11.4%."

Frank

Quote:

"The 1990's were a time of restraint."

Frank, you can be so droll. Yeah, right, the citizenry showed restraint in not storming the Clark and his utterly incompetent socialist professorial policy wonks bastille!

It takes years to drag an entire province out of the hole that these marxist neanderthal fools buried it in and the Liberals, while not completely populated by the sharpest knives in the drawer, have done a spectacular job. Increased spending on just about everything including infrastructure. Unemployment at 30 year low levels, AAA credit status and business gradually coming back to BC.

The continual attacks on Luke are complete BS. We can't, of course, expect these bullying twins to accept the facts because that's not in their genes.

realisticman

Keep your name calling to yourself. I realize you throw tantrums on a daily basis but try to act like an adult when you address me.

You don't like the facts, so I guess you don't read them.

StatsCan

Is just part of the Marxist conspiracy, I'm sure your Cons will shut it down soon.

realisticman

By the way, how come your Cons have only balanced the budget a third of the time in the last 22 years?

By the Way

I have a copy of baby Dion and the Liberal's Green Shift brochure, which has suddenly disappeared from public view. It's a collector's item. I'll probably put it on eBay. Keep your eyes open for it. Listed under 'Amusing Bumff'.

StasCan report

As I said; It takes years to drag an entire province out of the hole that these marxist neanderthal fools buried it in. Many people and businesses left the province, many for ever. It'll take 20 years, of non-NDP government, to re-establish proper growth again.

Pathetic

I don't expect people that use terms like "marxist neanderthal fools" to be able to explain why the Cons haven't been able to balance a budget 65% of the time.

Attacks on luke

What are you talking about realisticman

No one on this side ever calls any of you names - we question your version of things and present evidence - none of it plagiarized and none of it unattributed.

The fact of the matter is that you and luke and the other neo-liberals haven't got a leg to stand on.

The facts are clear and when you don't like it you start calling people names.

I've seen it dozens of times and it doesn't do a thing for you or your cause.

Now, why not put down the knives and actually deal with the record?

Anyone whose best shot is the ad hominem 'marxist neanderthal fool' is scraping pretty close to the bottom of the barrel.

Frank...

Since ya are insinuating that StatsCan is left-wing in nature... ;)

http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/11-010-XIB/00506/feature.htm

Frank:

Gotta disagree. The BC NDP has always been aligned with the environment movement.

In the recent federal election, NDP campaign manager Am Johal for Vancouver Centre candidate Byers made this statement:

http://thetyee.ca/Blogs/TheHook/Federal-Politics/2008/10/16/ByersVsFry/#article_comments

And the demographics of the "West End"... decidedly centre-left/left-wing as shown by the following colour-coded map of the riding from the 2005 provincial election (ALL orange - NDP):

http://bc2009.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/vancouver-burrard.gif

Centre-left/left-wing voters, supporting centre-left/left-wing candidates, supporting centre-left/left-wing ideas... the carbon tax. ;)

Frank

THEN DON'T FEED THE TROLLS.

Luke

"Since ya are insinuating that StatsCan is left-wing in nature"

I wasn't but realisticman thinks it is apparently. And I already read your link the first time you sent it to me months ago.

"Gotta disagree. The BC NDP has always been aligned with the environment movement."

But not with regressive taxation.

Luke...

LOL... nobody's attacking me. Some dudes just don't like to face facts (just spin and spin) and the real world though! :)

You ask for facts

They're there, as Luke directed:

http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/DATA/bus_stat/bcea/tab1.asp

ME2

Would you believe I planned on taking a break and leaving this forum for a few months after the election? Probably not.

But I keep thinking about carfreed's post, how all the other forums out there are dominated by rabid anti-NDPers where if you even mention child poverty you're called a Marxist and other names and so I don't wish to hand over this forum to the likes of realisticman, Wilfred and Elliot so they can turn the comments section into a place where Ezra Levant and Jonathan Kay would feel comfy.

THe facts are

That compared over the past 22 years Liberal and Conservative governments have run deficits more often than NDP governments.

That's all you have to contend with. The frustration with reality is obvious - but not understandable.

Argue with the messengers all you like - but the message is clear.

realisticman

So according to BC Stats the best year for GDP in BC was when the NDP was in power in 2000.

And its the same story in the per capita data.

Frank...

Come on. We've got two provincial by-elections in two weeks, civic elections in a month, and next May's provincial election.

Political junkie heaven. Ya can't leave. :)

To top it all off, G West is our own in-house jester! ;)

BC Liberal path of destruction

So who wants wild salmon tonight for dinner? Oh ya, the Libs wiped that out and tried to discredit Alexandra Morton to boot for the audacity she showed in studying a problem that makes the Libs look bad.

Too bad we live in a society where its easier to find an abused child than a wild salmon.

And, just for the sake of argument

I'd like the two of you to address the fact that it was after more than 8 years of Republican hegemony in the United States and about 15 years (actually more) of right-wing Liberal and Conservative government in Canada that the guys you're always defending and their Friedmanite orthodoxy have managed to put the world economy into a tail-spin that has put virtually every banking system in the developed world on life support.

A lot more people are going to starve this year than last and probably a lot more the year after that.

In the meantime, in a pathetic effort to patch up the holes central banks are burning money to keep warm.

Much comfort it's doing the people the system has been robbing.

I think you owe the working people of the world who have seen their buying power diminish over the past 30 years an explanation.

Luke

I'm going to have to miss all that, I really need to catch up on things I've fallen behind on the last 4 weeks.

But if you guys keep posting attacks on my favourite party every 20 minutes I just can't tear myself away.

Luke

Two things, first, I don't live in Vancouver so the civic election is pretty much like discussing German politics to me. And that just hasn't been the same since dear old Otto died.

Second, what two provincial by-elections?

Luke

Remember how I once said who would know more about the vagaries of polling than Angus Reid?

Angus-Reid:
Con 38% Lib 28% Ndp 18% Bloc 9% Grn 6%

Actual:
Con 37.4% Lib 27.3% Ndp 18.3% Bloc 9.2% Grn 6.5%

Perhaps we could start

Perhaps we could start with Pakistan: Itnflation is running at 25 percent, electricity is in short supply the rupee has already been devalued 25 percent against the dollar. On Monday of this week the police had to surround the Karachi Stock Exchange to protect it from angry investors - maybe you missed that news.

Depositors are lining up at banks to withdraw their money or to send it abroad and no central bank is bailing them out.

This is a country which has been unstable for years, a country where a huge chunk of population have existed just above the poverty line.

The prices of wheat, rice and milk have more than doubled in the last year. The price of flour used to make roti bread, the food staple, has jumped from 12 rupees (15 cents) a kilo last year to 28 rupees (35 cents).

Before the crisis about 56 million Pakistanis - around a third of the population - were living below the poverty line according to daily caloric intake. Millions more are likely to have joined them already and millions more will with each passing week.

This little bedtime story is going to be repeated around the world in poverty stricken villages and steaming cities...

Ain't global capitalism wonderful?

Yep

Angus sure called it, didn't he Frank?

Frank...

I don't live in Van City either... although I'm there alot. Doesn't matter. Interesting civic races with a centre-left/centre-right bent all over the region and BC for that matter.

1. Vancouver-Burrard (downtown Vancouver and West End as a result of Mayencourt resigning as MLA to run as a Con in Vancouver Centre federally);

2. Vancouver-Fairview (across from downtown Vancouver/ part of Vancouver Centre federally and a result of Gregor Robertson resigning as MLA to run as Van City mayor);

Both ridings comprise the federal Vancouver Centre seat.

http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20081016/BC_byelection_new_democrats_081016/20081016/?hub=BritishColumbiaHome

Luke

From your link

"NDP Leader Carole James said the byelections were a chance to send a message to the Liberal government for its inaction on homelessness, the carbon tax and problems in B.C. hospitals and long-term care facilities."

You know what, by-elections are boring. Its always the same message.

The US election is coming up but unless Obama is found in a compromising position with Palin I think its all over. And of course I'll be happy to see Obama win because I hope he'll make a difference even though logic tells me he won't.

I'll certainly be keeping an eye on the economy though and seeing if the Cons run yet another deficit.

Frank...

Nice, perhaps a fluke, but I still consider ARS to be way off the mark in the whole.

Eg. Saskatchewan - ARS - 800 sample size.

Federal poll of Saskatchewan residents - October 10, 2008

Con - 40% (Actual - 49% - +9%)
NDP - 35% (Actual - 24% - -11%)

http://www.canada.com/reginaleaderpost/news/story.html?id=3bc29043-ad03-4271-84d3-fa5681f562b3

Wayyyyy off the mark and that's with an 800 sample size.

FWIW, I know someone way up in ARS here in Vancouver (where they are based) and I have told the individual what I think of their methodology). ;)

Hang on Frank

Lots more to do here. I've now got to try and convince Garth that I didn't support GW Bush, for a start.

We haven't yet celebrated World Food Day (Oct-16) and it's already over in most of the world. We must encourage our government to increase oil production, so that energy will be cheaper for the developing world and they'll slow the cutting of trees for fuel. Increased oil production in Alberta and gas in BC will also free-up maize from bio-fuels and help feed the hungry. Instead of sending cash to possibly corrupt regimes, we should help finance oil production in Canada to help the hungry. How can we let so many suffer?

QUOTE:

" NAIROBI, Oct. 16 (Xinhua) -- The UN food agency, the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO), warned of looming food shortages in Africa as Kenya marked the World Food Day in Nairobi on Thursday.

FAO's Country Representative Castro Camarada said sub-Saharan Africa will be hardest hit by the food crisis since it is where most vulnerable groups are found.

The warning came against a backdrop of the global increase in food and fuel prices and a financial crisis that is likely to shift attention from the food crisis to economic stability.

Camarada said there is need to address the growing food demand and competition in prices as a result of climate change.

Speaking in Nairobi to mark the World Food Day, Camarada called for the promotion of the Rome declaration on improving global food security so as to help alleviate the situation.

"We need to create food-enabling frameworks for substantial increase of direct food foreign investments for agriculture in low income food deficit countries," he said.

He urged developed countries to consider partnering with the third world nations. "Equitable partnerships between nations that have land, water, labor and supply and those that have financial resources, management facilities and markets would constitute a solid base for sustainable agriculture."

Kenyan agriculture assistant minister Kareke Mbiuki said there is an urgent need to curb malnutrition and persistent food shortages to prevent hunger in the country.

He said that in as much as bio-fuel continues to draw attention due to the increasing prices of fossil fuels, there is need to focus on providing access to sustainable sources of energy. "

Frank...

You miss the point. It's a momentum builder. If the Libs take both seats the NDP is big trouble momentum-wise heading into 2009. No incumbent BC government has ever won an opposition seat. Then Carole is in trouble.

How could I miss the US election in my earlier post?

It looks like a definitive Obama win based upon what's happening in all of the swing states.

http://www.electoral-vote.com/

GWest

Quote: "Perhaps we could start with Pakistan."

Agree with you completely on this Garth. Pakistan is critical, in just about any way.

Always with the P3s!

Luke Skywalker:

I will, because it is. But don't take my word for it. From Britian, where they have had considerably more experience with P3s/PFIs...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/feb/10/businesscomment.northernrock

UBC researchers:

http://www.carleton.ca/spa/News%20and%20Events/Ross-public-private.pdf

In the 1990s, the Provincial government called debt "debt". Now the provincial government calls an enormous sum of the province's new debt "contractual obligations". That is the point.

So what?

You support global capitalism

And corporate welfare and the growth of extreme inequality that neo-liberal economics leads to.

I could care less if you support G W Bush - he's nothing but a spokespuppet for the military industrial complex anyway.

I'm glad you agree that the west's irresponsible flirtation with neo-liberal economics for the past 30 years has put the whole world in a nasty mess.

How come it took you so long to realize your error?

Rating agencies, again.

Luke Skywalker:

I simply point this out regarding the credit rating agencies to point out that they are very fallible, and that their rating system is not transparent. Clearly debt is not their only consideration. And if they do not factor in debt from P3s, then they are even more incompetent than the trillions of dollars of mayhem they partially caused (through rating bad mortgage debt) would indicate. (Although of course BC's credit rating is, on the whole, pretty minor compared to the "credit crunch".)

Luke

What revenue stream?

SNC Lavalin Canada line,will have a yearly revenue loss in the millions,there is only a negative revenue stream!
There are no hydro P3s,just a few upgrades!

Abbotsford hospital has no revenue stream

Sea to sky highway up grade has no revenue stream!
Luke Skywalker, where`s the lastest Ipsos Reid poll that was done in september?

How come that poll has been buried?

Could it be that it has the BC liberals down 12 points!
Luke tell Campbell to keep his mugg in the news,every appearence is costing him a point in the polls.

The upcoming bi-election will have really big spreads, 68% for ndps---32%--liberals!

Campbell is down to his base, 32% --regardless of the 50 adds a day on CKNW and other radio stations.

People do notice Campbell warning BCers about the doom and gloom,people also notice Campbell on every news broadcast,radio station,newspaper,everywhere there is a mike or camera.

Perhaps he should be speaking at the legislature.

P.S did you listen to the hammering the minister of small business got on Christie Clark yesterday? I was glad to help out! Cheers.

G West

"Ms May would have been far wiser to run in Guelph - the point of taking on Peter McKay escaped me at the time and still does."

Possibly because she knew she wouldn't win there, and so could free up time to appear in other ridings. But she got some 13,000 votes -- not bad at all.

The meltdown conveniently allowed Harper to scare the bejeezuz out of people, who then either stayed home, or voted for the (alledged) "steady hand at the tiller", instead of entertaining a green vote........

But I think she would have had a better shot

I goofed. The riding I meant to suggest was London. You'll remember she placed second in a bye election to the Liberals there on Nov 22, 2006. To a Liberal. Dion didn't have much trouble asking his candidate to bow out in Central Nova and he turned down David Orchard in another bye election in Saskatchewan to push his own candidate.

Therefore, she could presumably have made the same deal with the Liberals in London as she did in Nova Scotia - and, having run there before she had ties to the riding, a riding where the Conservative candidate placed 3rd in the bye-election.

It's still a mystery to me why she wouldn't have used her deal with Dion to give herself a decent chance of getting into Parliament.

Fudge-it budget? You betcha!

Luke Skywalker:

I'm not sure how BC ranks compared to the other provinces (you should provide a source for this statement), but according to this:

http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/DATA/bus_stat/bcea/tab1.asp

BC's real GDP per capita in 1992 was 30,047 $, and it was 32,823 $ in 2000. This is an increase of ~9%, not 5.3% as you state.

Not according to BC Stats. It was 30,815 $ in 1990 and 30,822 $ in 1998.

Please provide a source for this.

No, actually 33.6 billion $, according to Will McMartin. But what's 1.5 billion $ here or there?

Sadly, a comparison between the Liberals and the NDP is not possible here, since so much BC Liberal debt has been hidden through amortisation and P3s. One would only compare these between figures for the NDP and the Liberals if one wanted to purposely mislead.

HYPOCRISY! Unlike the BC Liberals, who just declared a "surplus" of 2.9 billion $ this year, yet BC's total debt has rose by 1.2 billion $. Fudge-it budget? You betcha!

You mean like in the Clayquot protests? Oh, no wait, you're wrong again.

The 1990s – a decade

Luke Skywalker:

http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/11-010-XIB/00506/feature.htm

From the article:

Do you consider 2.9% growth in real GDP bad? Real GDP growth since 2001 is around 3.4%, if memory serves. Not a dramatic difference, to my mind, and remember that growth will be low in BC in the coming year(s).

They even spell out the reasons for slower growth:

And as for low investment,

So BC experienced 2.9% growth per year in real GDP, in spite of low commodity prices and a housing slump. And what of commodity prices since 2002?

http://thetyee.ca/Views/2006/11/15/Boom/

jimmy_laroux: What happened?

I'm amazed, jimmy. You've posted some rational, high quality material. Has someone else stolen your handle?

NDP fortunes

I thought "Lessons learned from election night" in the Globe and Mail had a lot of good points [http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081015.WStrategists15/BNStory/politics/home/?pageRequested=all].

I particularly liked Gerald Caplan’s blunt assessment of Stephen Harper and his asking the harder questions about the NDP’s future given their inability to capture more than 20 percent of the vote in 75 years of existence.

When I lived in Ottawa, I knew three people who worked on the Hill for the NDP in the early to mid-1980s. They all came to the conclusion that it was time to move on and get on with their life. A career for the government in power would be far more interesting. For all their hard work, they were working for opposition MPs and did not see the NDP forming a government in the future. Fast forward to 2008 and the situation has not changed.