Frank

Your debating abilities are remarkable, they are particularly astounding when you are entangled in debating your own points.

EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULTS.
STICK TO SUBSTANTIVE COMMENTS PLEASE. -- TYEE MODERATOR

The second Marissen and his back room buddies pushed Dion to the front of the parade, both Harper and Layton pulled out the knives, along with all the other usual suspects that we typically define as the enemy.

Even you must see that it is difficult to work with someone whose very clear agenda from the get go was your imminent demise.

You will remember when Layton did reach out to the opposition and garnered support for his private members bill on the environment. That was a fine example of leadership and even though Harper and his thugs ignored it, had they kept up that kind of pressure they would have altered the dynamics of parliament and ultimately filled the leadership void and delivered better electoral results.

Instead the strategy chosen has harmed the Country, alienated the base and, as we sill see, has also broke the bank. Takes a lot bake sales to raise 18.5 million dollars plus interest.....

And politico

It's you who invoked Tommy Douglas - not me.

Right now it's Jack Layton who's pushing real change...unlike Marissen's puppet Stephane Dion - who's pretty much same old, same old.

Luke

"Laying the economic foundation for a healthier economy is somethin' that the NDP "left" doesn't seem to understand."

Yet you want our votes and tell us over and over on here that we're the same. You and brain and politico keep making my arguments for me.

By the way, you've been in power for most of the last 141 years, let us know when you've finished laying that groundwork and all those promises finally come to fruition k?

"Ohhh, I forgot, the federal NDP wants to also rip up the Softwood Lumber Agreement - even BC provincial NDP forestry critic Bob Simpson calls it a dumb idea."

Strange, because politico, you and brain keep telling me we're all the same and we have to stop Harper. Sounds more like you guys all want to stop Layton.

"And the NDP's Vancouver Centre candidate Mike Byers wants to "shutdown" the Alberta oil sands. Brilliant!"

If you don't like us then by all means vote Liberal and I'll vote NDP.

"Way out of tune with most Canadians."

82% of Canadians out of tune with the NDP, excellent. Just like the 76% of Canadians that are out of tune with the Liberals.

We're both minorities, enjoy.

And, on the softwood deal and NAFTA

Did you not notice that Barack Obama thinks NAFTA could use a little overhaul too?

Given the fact that NDP governments have done a better job - under more difficult circumstances (and that includes Ontario) than either the Federal or any of the provincial Liberals or Conservative governments I've witnessed or studied I don't think Layton has to apologize for anything.

I guess you've forgotten both Grant Devine and Ross Thatcher Lorne. Would it be unfair of me to mention them?

And I can think of a couple of Ontario Premiers who had some trouble with the books too...remember?

OH, and by the way, since nobody in the press seems to have noticed, what do you think of the re-emergence of the doctrinaire neo-con Harper in the English debate?

You know the one, who responded to the question from Steve Paikin about whether he'd EVER raise taxes with a definite NO.

Sounds awfully like and amalgam of R B Bennett and George Bush to me.

Learning by rote?

"Ahhhh the evil corporations. You know, the ones owned by moms and pops, through their mutual funds, and union pension funds."

By the way Luke, you may recall we argued this point long ago over several days. My point was how little average Canadians actually own through their tiny investments. You denied it over and over until we dug up the actual numbers. You seem to have forgotten that lesson.

Liberal paradises

Here you go, a list of tax havens around the world that will make any Liberal happy. Canada is already on the list but you can read the notes for yourself.

http://www.zyra.org.uk/taxhaven.htm

Strangely, most of those countries have very little in the way of social programs or industry.

Emerson's perks

Whether Emerson had any prerequisites is perhaps debatable, but as a minister he would certainly have had many perquisites.

Foolish

Quote:

politico said:

"Albeit the liberals are chalk a block full of the manipulative moles we have grown to detest but they are easily identifiable as the ones currently attacking their own party as well as Dion."

I agree....but what does that say about Dion as a leader that he allows or does not even notice that his own backroom boys are "playing on both teams".... and intentionally de-railing his campaign? Is he that easily manipulated and controlled? How can he not see what is clearly going on ? We can.

So where is the consolation or hope for our country in that?....that he is a man so easily fooled?

Lynn

Nowhere did I suggest that Dion did not notice what was happening nor did I suggest that his people were playing him.

I am pretty confident he is well aware of the circumstances within his party.

I don't believe he is easily fooled.

I think we have been fooled by the campaign to discredit him.

A closer look at Dion reveals more than the Harper/Layton "not a leader" frame.

A closer look at the green shift also reveals what might truly be the target.

The Green shift is both a measured re-distribution of wealth and a progressive approach to the overriding environmental concerns of the day. Two very significant policy positions that both the Cons and the NDP are currently lacking.

G west

G West claims:

C'mon politico, you know better than that.

Every time the NDP works with Liberals they lose -

Dude this is just simply false.

No it's not

Perhaps you can explain why you don't think that's the case.

To me it's self-evident - Liberals take all the credit for virtually every decent social program in this country - every one of them a CCF or NDP invention.

Interesting...

Will is prepared to 'ignore' the effect of the Reform party from 1993, yet seems equally willing to ignore the potential of the Greens in 2008.

While I agree the general polling data is not showing much of a blip, one may need to look at the polls prior to 1993 to get a handle on what the Reformers were doing in polls back before that 1993 election.

I seem to recall a general malaise that the Reform party would not ammount to much at all...

I think that enough Canadians may have reached the point that they may not be willing to 'hold their noses' and vote for any of the big parties.

There is a new vitality coming from Greens and Independant candidates.

One might even hope for more than one of each to get a seat.

I know that is a long-shot, but then we can always hope that the Canadian sheeple could break out of their pens and do more than bleat a little.

The problem with the NDP is.............

.........they are beholden to many fringe and special interest groups that has now excluded the mainstream voter. I think the NDP would do a lot better is they dropped a lot of baggage and get on with the 21st century.

The Greens today are what the reform of yesterday were, a party of protest. For those who believe we must vote and yet the those 3 mainstream parties do not reflect me, the Green party is a natural choice.

I'll wager that 90% of the people voting Green, haven't a clue about their platform, nor do they care because they want to send a message to the NDP. Libs. and the Cons. that there is an alternative.

I'm voting Green because they will get $1.45 in Federal funding and we need more diverse opposition in Ottawa and not the tired "old boys/girls club" we now have.

Mind you, my riding, Richmond/South Delta and our MP John Cummins is 'dead cert' and makes voting Green easier.

Grumpy

"I'm voting Green because they will get $1.45 in Federal funding...."

Wow, so the greens bought your vote for a $1.45? Nice to see the value you place on your vote. What do ya think the country is worth? A couple grand?

G West

The most recent example I will forward in Lib/NDP cooperation with results would be the so called NDP Budget passed under Martin Liberals in 2005:

The NDP budget…

* is balanced
* pays down debt
* contains tax cut for small business
* does not raise one penny in taxes
* and cancels Paul Martin’s $4.6 billion corporate tax break and instead invests that money in people.

$1.6 billion for affordable housing
$1.5 billion in reducing tuition fees
$900 million for environment & energy efficiency

$500 million for foreign aid
$100 million to protect wages in bankruptcy

Totalling
$4.6 billion

Of course I could have just sent ya to the party's website that boasts about it......

http://www.ndp.ca/budget

But politico - you've made my point for me

What good did it do them?
When it came time, in late 2005, for Paul Martin to put up and actually support the NDP program the Liberals were offered - which would also have brought a real childcare program AND ensured the Kelowna accord, (among other things) and which would have permitted Mr. Martin's minority government to survive and not go to the people in January - Martin refused to go along because he was confident he hadn't been harmed much by the stench of Gomery and the sponsorship scandal...
Of course that calculus was wrong and the people threw out Paul Martin's government. In the end, his budget and the Kelowna Accord and Child Care didn't mean diddley squat to him when he thought he could finesse the Canadian people and get another mandate.
That's the kind of thing the Liberals always do...and then, in their inimitable style, they blame the NDP for the 'defeat' of their government.
Please, don't waste my time. You cannot do business on any kind of a rational and reasonable level with people who have no affinity for the truth.
The NDP should offer to enter a coalition with the Liberals...but only in terms of a signed, notarized and witnessed deal that gives them:
a) Cabinet ministers;
b) an agreed legislative program including tax reform to implement the recommendations of the 'Progressive Conservative' sponsored Carter Royal Commission on Taxation.
c) a real approach to re-building the infrastructure of Canada's cities;
d) an immediate withdrawal from Afghanistan;
e) among other things.
When you and Dion are ready to play that kind of game - I'm all for it.
Until then, don't fool yourself - the Liberals WILL NOT cooperate.

Same old , same old wrecking crew

Quote:

"I am pretty confident he is well aware of the circumstances within his party.

I don't believe he is easily fooled."

If that was the case, he would have different people running his campaign.

One only has to remember how Herb Dhaliwal's re-election was sabotaged.

McMartin Underestimating Changes

I have no quarrel with Will McMartin's review of history, or his treatment of the widespread losses of 1993 and a clearly exceptional year. But I think he's mistaken in projecting 2008 as an average year rather than another exceptional year.

The Liberal meltdown is going to accelerate in the final days as power-oriented voters do an about face, leaving the Red side of the Red/Blue duopoly for the Blue side. This was clearly the trend in the Vancouver Quadra byelection. Liberal pressure on voters not to go to the NDP is largely misdirected. Their biggest and least stoppable hemmorhage is to the Conservatives.

Fry, Chan, and Murray are all in a hopeless situation, as is Wendy Yuan. Vancouver City, for several years the major source of Liberal seats in BC, will soon be bereft of Liberals, with the likely (emphasize, likely, not certain) exception of Dosanjh in Vancouver South. There two, the potential for an about face simply cannot be ruled out.

Beyond Vancouver, incumbents Keith Martin and Sukh Dhaliwal face ever increasing challenges, and will probably loose as well. In addition, Conservative Randy Kamp can no longer appeal to his riding's fundamental anti-government sentiment.

Adding these names to that of Blair Wilson yields about 7 incumbents headed for early retirement.

Lynn

Who exactly is running his campaign?

I think people are going to be surprised by what actually happens in this election.

The Libs will be the surprise in this election, largely due to the lowered expectations the Harper/Layton "not a leader" frame has brought about.

GWest

Sorry to waste your precious time.

You clearly are busy given the amount of posts you have here alone.

I have to point out that your list of demands is pretty steep.

You clearly don't grasp the reality of the NDP position in parliament and historical role in our political system.

That you dismiss the NDP budget I pointed out for you well reflects this.

When was the last time a party with approximately 7% of the seats in the legislative assembly authored the budget?

You really need to get a grip on reality.

I will not respond to anymore of your unsubstantiated missives in a humble attempt to no longer waste your time.

Pardon me for the intrusion on your busy schedule.

The Sympathy Vote

Dion may well pick up quite a few votes from those that feel a bit sorry for him and his earnest demeanor.

Would be interesting to see the look on Bob Rae's face if Dion looses by just a smidgen. Might be less easy to just boot him. Very interesting too if Dion maintains his momentum and squeaks in. Be sure that if Dion looks like he might make it then Québec will swing to the Liberals big-time. They love being on the winning team. Buckle up.

Did I miss something?

Dion ≠ Momentum

Dion

Who I will admit is a dud... lol... is now gaining momentum after the leadership debates... for the first time since the election was called.

Better late than never I guess.

For the first time, Dion is ahead/tied with Layton nationally in terms of the "best prime minister" and "leadership index" in today's Nanos poll.

http://www.nanosresearch.com/election/CPAC-Nanos-October-5-2008E.pdf

And Jack is running to become "Prime Minister".

Go figure.

It's not Dion who's gaining

It's Harper whose support is falling apart...as noted here:

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Opinion/1082740.html

...under Harper, Canada’s reputation in the world has been trashed, along with that of the U.S. The assault on Kyoto, our unco-operative mood at the UN, our abandonment of peacekeeping in favour of a red-clawed militarism, support for U.S. torture policies (which no other government did), the abandonment of an even-handed approach in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and a string of other things have left our erstwhile allies bewildered. This screams out for a reversal.

On domestic policy, the issue of poverty is suddenly up as well, as is the question of day care and childhood development – with the figures showing Canada lagging increasingly behind in literacy and education. And we haven’t even mentioned the environment. The Harper Conservatives have basically nothing to say about social policy, except to cut taxes. Give people an extra hundred bucks off their taxes, as the ideology prescribes, and they’ll work it out for themselves.

Alas, with deficits looming, perhaps catastrophically so, not to mention other mayhem, the era of tax cuts is over, no matter what the parties promise, either here or in the U.S. Furthermore, the utopian right-wing presumption that private action alone solves everything is also over – the U.S. bailout of the failed money creed putting paid to that. The fact is that we will now need wise government action to guide us through the shoals ahead.
The Harper government doesn’t believe in public action, wise or not. That’s a problem, but we may not know how much of a problem until after the election when government action is increasingly called for, but the Harper government, virtually alone in the world, is ideologically opposed to it.

Whatever

Fact is Dion is now fave for PM in the far-East, Québec and Ontario, and he's passed Jack. If the Libs pull this off he might well have virtually no-one from the Manitoba border west for Cabinet. He'll either send parachutes (the same way he was brought into Cabinet) or Canada will have a seriously divided country - again.

Hmmm?

AGAIN

You must be kidding.

Perhaps...

...you're too young to remember the phrase, "THE WEST WANTS IN".

If there's a Liberal win with all the seats east of Thunder Bay...

I'm from the West I remember it and it's bull shit

The west was NEVER out - and once-nearly bankrupt Alberta and Saskatchewan wouldn't even 'exist' without central Canada.

The fact is that people who come here from other countries really haven't got a clue about Canadian history...
The irony in all of this is that Alberta is one of the main reasons there is an equalization program in the first place.
During the Great Depression, the governments of Alberta and Saskatchewan flirted with bankruptcy. Their hardship led to the creation of the Royal Commission on Dominion-Provincial Relations, also known as the Rowell-Sirois Commission, which put federalism under scrutiny. In its 1940 report, the Commission noted that:
The quality of education and welfare services is no longer a matter of purely provincial and local concern. In Canada today, freedom of movement and equality of opportunity are more important than ever before, and these depend in part on the maintenance of at least minimum national standards for education, public health and care of the indigent. The most economically distressed areas are the ones least capable of supporting these services, and yet are also the ones in which the needs are likely to be greatest.
Eventually, the Rowell-Sirois Commission's work was put in place, including the launch of the equalization program in 1957. In the early years, Alberta was a recipient province, and arguably federal supports helped shape today's Alberta.

Would you care for some further ‘history’ lessons?

The current Prime Minister doesn't tell the truth, doesn't keep his promises and is buttoned up and dysfunctional as a leader than he's seen his popularity trend downwards from almost 40% two weeks ago to, what is it this morning? Oh yeah, 34%.

The only truth Canadians ought to remember is that, if this plagiarist manages to eke out a win, he will NOT be supported by more than 60% of the Canadian public.

Thanks, West

I note that in 1940 the commission you cite noted;

"In Canada today, freedom of movement and equality of opportunity are more important than ever before, and these depend in part on the maintenance of at least minimum national standards for education, public health and care of the indigent."

Sounds reasonable to me and that's why I've never grasped why some people are opposed to TILMA, which addresses this issue.

Returning to the West Wants In, what thinkest thou about this?:

"In his essay on the Socialist Party of Canada, published in the first issue of Labour/Le Travailleur in 1976, Gerald Friesen summarized the nature of this regional identity:

The time and pace of development, and the economy created by the national policies of the federal government, produced peculiar labour-management relations. Thus, the boom-bust character of the hinterland, the proprietary attitude toward the labour force in many industries, and the rough, unstable character of the new communities were causes of western unrest."

Friesen concludes with the observation: "Implicit in this analysis is an emphasis upon the influence of regional consciousness within the western labour movement.... Two generations of Canadian experience had fostered images of a new society in the West, whether radical, hospitable, or merely separate, and thus created a belief in western community."

"What the West wanted, how its aspirations could be fulfilled within the federal framework, and how fulfilling them would change Canada itself came to dominate the Reform Party's public agenda before its transformation into the Canadian Alliance in 2000.

In many respects, the Reform Party was simply the latest in a long line of regional protests emanating from the prairies over the past hundred years. The agrarian movement before World War I, the Progressive Party of the 1920s, the rise of Social Credit and the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation during the Great Depression, the Canada West Foundation established in the 1970s, and Ralph Klein's re-invigoration (if not re-invention) of the Alberta Conservative Party as the vanguard of neo-liberalism, are all part of a western revolt against the centre."

And the Reform movement failed

And the 'Reform' movement failed because it was, like all right-wing movements, too focused on individuals and not enough cognizant of the importance of community.

Canada as a nation has never, virtually never, had the kind of leadership at the federal level which could mobilize the energy, resources and intelligence of the whole country.

TILMA is little more than a sop to neo-con business principles - it cares little or nothing about local strong and vital communities. And that's why municipalities all across the country have rejected it..

As for Klein, please, he was the progenitor of the idea that his province was being treated badly by confederation.

In fact, the dependence on oil royalties for 40% or more of that province's revenues has hamstrung it and made it stupid. Klein was just the penultimate proof of that fact - the current Premier is version 2.0.

In fiscal 2004/05, Alberta government received just shy of $10 billion in resource royalties – enough to pay for a full 40 per cent of Alberta's budget expenditures. Not many people (even in Alberta) know that sans resource royalties the $5 billion budget surplus would turn into a $5 billion deficit.

Unlike other provinces, Alberta has not needed to institute a provincial sales tax – and resource revenue has turned the once almost bankrupt province into the very incarnation of the neo-con dream of a flat tax.

Alberta is continuing to play "beggar-thy-neighbour" on tax relative to the whole country because, as Alberta lowers taxes other provinces must follow, so that businesses are not lured away to the oil patch.

The problem is, and Harper and his policies make this worse, it that the rest of the country rushes to the bottom to remain "competitive" at the same time that somewhat important things like affordable housing and decent public services are collapsing. Things which pee wee has said are the purview of charities.

But resource royalties, given the fact that they are not part of the federal revenue base makes them a major source of fiscal imbalance and regional tension. As Dalton McGuinty rightly complains, under the current formula an increase in the size of equalization would have to be financed in large part by Ontario – the same place which has suffered most from the high commodity prices that enrich the exchequer in Edomonton.

This isn’t about being anti-Alberta or anti-western.

Sharing the wealth made sense decades ago when Alberta was on its knees.

GWest

quote:

"TILMA is little more than a sop to neo-con business principles - it cares little or nothing about local strong and vital communities. And that's why municipalities all across the country have rejected it."

My understanding is that certain aspects are successfully being implemented, that Ontario and Québec have signed on and Newfoundland will administer some of the professional accreditations. The aim is to increase mobility for qualified professionals, as is the case in much of Europe. Why is that so bad?

GWest, quote:

"As for Klein, please, he was the progenitor of the idea that his province was being treated badly by confederation."

I'm surprised you poo-poo the essay by David Bright for the Canadian Committee on Labour History. I though it would be right up your alley.

I might not pooh-pooh it

I haven't read it.

Klein is an idiot. Lougheed, at least - both then and now - had some idea of a greater Canada. Klein was never more than a kind of Alberta-centric fascist - promoting a kind 'Little England' philosophy in his prairie kingdom.

You ought to know something about the parallels, given your background.

The aim of TILMA is far more than making professional mobility a walk in the park - you ought to investigate what its effects will be on the smaller interior communities that are fighting it so hard.