that's meant to be

Hey Lorne-

it's early, sorry~

Oh really!

The riding is increasing green minded and sensitive to the environment.

The graph McMartin provides doesn't seem to reflect that.

Shun Lunn

This article fails to mention the campaigns in the riding that have included the green party pushing their candidate to stand down and the Shun Lunn movement.

It also fails to give any weight to the fact that many of the voters in S-GI are completely disillusioned with the Harper/Lunn agenda on:

1) A Nuclear Powered Tar Sands
2) Tanker Traffic Moratorium
3) Nuclear Waste Management

Not to mention the Isotopo Insanity and the Linda Keen affair.

Quite frankly the tables have turned considerably in favour of defeating Lunn and, regardless of the charts and national campaign trends, LUNN IS DONE!

A big reason why is because in S-GI a Penn victory is less a Liberal Victory than it is a Conservative defeat.

It will deliver a blow directly to the heart of Harper's Cabinet. It will discredit his environmental and energy agenda and it will prove they are not as infallible as the mainstream will have you believe.

The only wild card is how well the green candidate will and if he can split the vote enough for Gary to squeek in another victory. But if he continues on his trend of losing half of his support in between elections then there is no hope for a green resurgence and the potential for the vote split is diminished.

Visit: http://members.shaw.ca/shunlunn/
orhttp://members.shaw.ca/shunlunn/blunders.htm

Or just Google Shunlunn for details

the instution vs the individual

I think the following from Chomsky hits the nail on the head and explains why some New Democrats would not vote for Brionny Penn as a Liberal...

"You want to distinguish between the institution and the individual. So slavery, for example, is inherently monstrous but the individuals participating in this institution may be the nicest guys you can imagine: benevolent, friendly, nice to their children, even nice to their slaves, caring about other people. But in their instiutional roles they are monsters because the institution is monstrous."

It doesn't matter if Penn is a nice person, the Liberal Party is a monstrous institution when it comes to social issues.

For example, how about Chretein's promise to "do the heavy lifting" in Afghanistan? Brionny Penn is going to vote to continue to send young men and women from her country to their deaths in Afghanistan, instead of bringing them home now, because she is now a servant of the war machine monster. Oil soaked beaches pale in comparison to blood soaked fields.

WHAT'S MORE IMPORTANT - ENVIRONMENT OR POLITICAL ETHICS?

What's more important? Voting for someone with intellectual expertise in the environmental field, such as Penn? Or making sure that a minimum standard of political ethics is maintained.

Everyone knows that the West story was dead until the Liberals revived it. Only a political innocent would believe they didn't arrange for the added material that appeared the day before official nominations closed. And the fact that Penn has said she sympathizes with West (why would she sympathize with him if she honestly believed his accusers were telling the truth?) and instead put all blame on Layton, clearly a bit of additional partisan bootstrapping.

If people want to reward dirty politics, they know very well who to vote for. carfreed, frank1, RickW, and vegguy keep pushing the pitch that Penn is some kind of environmental hero who must be supported, no matter what. Do ethics count for nothing with you people?

I sincerely hope Penn places fourth. She's earned it.

Liberal Dirty Tricks tar Penn, sad but true

There is a lot of wishful thinking in these comments. Penn supporters somehow thinking voters won't see through the Liberal drive-by smear.

Penn is getting in deeper with an organization that wouldn't know ethics if they were bit by them on the behind. Unfortunate but true.

Green and NDP insiders know the truth. Lobbyists Marrisen, Zubyk set this up. The truth is coming out and Penn is the "deer in the headlights".

You've convinced me Budd

Penn should disavow her Liberal handlers and run as an independent...it's the moral thing to do.

And it has nothing to do with the environment.

But don't hold your breath....

Huh?

I am as amused with Penn's new found sympathy for West as the next guy, but you have to admit that the culprit who brought West down on the eve of the deadline is more a New Democrat insider than a Liberal one.

Let's look at Zubyk's track record:

1) Managed Corky's Leadership Bid
2) Managed Rob Flemming's Affairs
3) Managed Gregor Roberston's Bid for Mayor
4) Managged Rick Kasper's last campaign

Former Title

1) Communications Director NDP Caucus

SOooooooo
To suggest the "Liberal insiders" are undertaking some unethical smear campaign is thin gruel.

Tis typical NDP insider malfeasance methinks.

politico, you have a point. Up to a point.

NDP strategists have always been distressed by Zubyk's decision to work for the Liberals on federal campaigns.

But in past elections there were never episode like the recent machinations in Saanich, which for all I know went well beyond anything Zubyk had in mind and may well have involved some green operatives arranging for certain colourful things to appear.

I would be very surprised if Zubyk ever works on any BC NDP campaign or other peacetime activity again after this. As long as he is attached to Robertson, Ladner's chances of winning in November are increased. Unless he can prove he had nothing to do with the West affair, Zubyk is going to have to dedicate himself to the Liberal party alone.

Well said, asher.

Well said, asher.

West should have never been a candidate

The only one who did in Julian West is Julian West by exposing his erection to children. The NDP dropped the ball by not vetting the candidate. There is no political party in the world that would not have used this information on an opposing candidate if they had it, including the NDP. Anyone who is howling about underhanded politics here is being naive at best.

And for those claiming foul, you are still pretending, as West did, that this was some minor trumped up skinny-dipping incident. It was not, it was sexual harassment and it was a very serious error on his part. Enough of an error that any political party that choose him as their candidate was setting themselves up for trouble eventually. And West is lucky he didn't get charged.

Say West had magically won the election, - even though everyone knows that the best he could do was to further split the vote - but let's just say he had won. Do the howlers think that West's past wouldn't have been used against him by some future political opponent?

NDP partisans in SG-I who will refuse to cast a vote for Penn to get Lunn fired are doing damage to the riding by ensuring that Lunn will win again. Doing this out of some sense of aggrieved ethics is just silly. I hope they enjoy the view of oil tankers sailing through the Gulf Islands, bringing tar sands oil to Asia, all brought to you by the Honourable Gary Lunn.

I won't enjoy casting a vote for the Liberal Party, the party that I have seriously disagreed with for decades. But Briony Penn would be a good fit for the riding, and I would really enjoy it if on election night, that vote were to deny Gary Lunn his job and also prevent one more riding from adding to a Stephen Harper majority government.

rouge+chartreuse

I tend to agree with you in general - as you'll have seen above.

However, not to put too fine a point on it, the actions of the Liberals (and especially Zubyk's crowing and preening about it) have a distinctly sour odour and stage managed air about them - the kind of odour that has infected federal Liberal politics in BC for years - going back to David Anderson and his acolytes.

Zubyk has certainly found his fit and, while I'd be happy to see the back of Lunn, putting a positive spin on the story is difficult.

This is just the same old sleazy Liberal politics - practiced by a new bunch of operatives. The Basi boyZ being out of commission, someone had to take over.

strategy

Checking out www.voteforenvironment.ca I find they are recommending liberal party candidate Briony Penn. Check out your riding and find where the anybody but Harper people should put their vote. Let's hope the site goes viral.

wrong riding

The only trouble with Mr McMartin's analysis is that Saanich-Gulf Islands wasn't Saanich-Gulf Islands for all of the past 18 elections. Here on Salt Spring we used to be part of Malahat-The Islands. That's when we elected an NDP MP -- a really good one, by the way, Jim Manly.

Briony

This NDPer will be voting Briony. I think she's the best choice, for all the reasons stated above. Also, I don't think Dion is quite the Yankee doodle suck up, that Mulrooney's protoge Stephen Harper is.

"Anything But Conservative" here.

ABC

Anybody but Conservative.

I'll be voting for Briony Penn and I have never voted Liberal (or Conservative) in my life. She is a good fit for the riding.

Julian West should never have run as a candidate. His actions were completely inappropriate and were way beyond "skinny dipping" as the two young women testified on the record. Yes, we all make mistakes and learn and grow and move on but his mistake precludes him from public office.

As for the back room machniations? I don't really care. I am voting strategically.

A Harper majority government would be disastrous for Canada.

Like Danny Williams said---ABC.

Hopefully many other smart, caring, thoughtful Canadians agree and we'll have a fighting chance to get through the next decade as an intact society and not sold down the river in a vain attempt to prop up a collapsing American empire.

No one can believe this

rouge + chartreuse:
The only one who did in Julian West is Julian West by exposing his erection to children.

off-the-radar
Julian West should never have run as a candidate. His actions were completely inappropriate and were way beyond "skinny dipping" as the two young women testified on the record.

I think both of you know very well that these are, at best, unproved allegations. And it's an intentional falsehood to use the word "testified". No one testified to anything. Rather, two people of completely unknown reliability signed a carefully lawyered, professionally drafted press release claiming to be outraged victims. They took this action 17 months after West was nominated by his party and started to publicly campaign, but just hours before official nominations closed. The sincerity level couldn't possibly be more obvious, and in any other context wouldn't pass either the laugh or smell tests.

It was falsely stated in some news reports that these allegations were mailed to Jack Layton the week before. In fact it went on Sunday Sept 21st. One of the two press release signatories then gave an additional quote to the press questioning Laytons' committment to women's rights because he hadn't yet replied to her, carefully echoing Briony Penn's Liberal media talking points.

No one can believe this, including the posters who say they take it at face value. It's just all politics, all the time, and they know it. In fact, it's the phoniest scam since Rachel Marsden's days at SFU.

Budd

Thanks for that. You've convinced me.

As you can see from the above, I think you're absolutely correct - this was a typical Liberal smear campaign - engineered from the beginning to achieve the desired result...

Even if Briony Penn wasn't complicit in this sleaze campaign, she certainly appears to be so.

Perhaps that's why her public appearances in recent days seem to be so ineffectual and tongue tied.

We disagree on lots of things - not this one.

It's hard to sleep with the pigs and not get dirty.

Lunn's better gone - but the smell that comes along with Penn as an MP will be same that emanated from David Emerson during the last Parliament.

It's interesting that those

It's interesting that those who are accusing the girls of being Liberal agents and questioning their story, accusing them of making unsubstantiated allegations are then willing to go ahead in the next breath and make unsubstantiated allegations as to Ms. Penn's involvement in the worst kind of political smear. It's interesting how eager partisans of all stripes can so easily justify whatever means are necessary to push their candidates.

So some people are willing to stand up and accuse 12 young women of publicly accusing someone of sexual harassment, even though nothing occurred, only to help a Liberal campaign that has a slim hope of winning at best? And I guess if there was no truth to it, Mr. West just decided he would leave those allegations unanswered and withdraw quietly from the race? And even though they have damaged his reputation with their false allegations, West won't sue these 12 women for libel?

If the allegations are fiction, then why doesn't West speak up for himself?

The rabble/babble NDP partisan discussion forum was all over this issue several days ago, with a few of the more rabid partisans clinging to the idea that West did nothing more than skinny dipping. By the end of the detailed discussions most came to the conclusion that there is little chance this wasn't a credible story.

http://tinyurl.com/babble-discussion

Look, NDP partisans, your party f--ed up and nominated an oddball. A few Liberals, Conservatives or maybe even Greens, may have pushed it for political gain, as any partisan would have done in a similar situation, but that is no reason to go off the deep end and accuse 12 women of engineering a massive conspiracy on behalf of the Liberal party.

All that's being lost in this airing of partisan grudges is that the Honourable Gary Lunn is more able to once again split the vote in Saanich Gulf-Islands and claim another riding towards his master Steve's glorious majority.

I concur, rouge+chartreuse

Shouldn't have to echo why, you've nailed it nicely

Ummm

And what about the Liberal failure to vet their candidate in Winnipeg for her anti-Jewish sentiments about 9/11? Who’s going to win that riding now?

I think I'd be a little careful where one treads when it comes to vetting - I could cite several other examples… and from ‘every’ side of the street – including the Green.

I think I was the very first person here at Tyee who said that West should pull out - you can check that out in the archives.

However, to pretend that Zubyk and Penn (there's no way she didn't know what was going on) are innocent in this little soap opera is nonsense.

There are no moral absolutes in politics and lot of lying, cheating and plagiarizing.

Those who think it's okay to ignore that kind of thing, no matter who's doing it, are the ones with the problem - in my view.

I wouldn't have voted for Penn as the best candidate even if West had withdrawn immediately - it would only have been as an effort to defeat Lunn. Given the tactics and the excuses made since then, you guys aren't making it any easier. And besides, as the record shows, there isn't a lot of difference (once enshrined on Sussex Drive) between pee wee and 'his' personal party and whomever is the current Liberal flavour of the week.

rouge

So let's say I saw someone abuse a kid 12 years ago. Then they get nominated as a Liberal in the riding, but I wait 17 months until the day after nominations close to speak up and say what I saw.

What West did was wrong and he never should have been a candidate but I can't see how anyone doesn't see the usual Liberal politics in this.

Babble? It's revealing you would point there rouge + chartreuse

So some people are willing to stand up and accuse 12 young women of publicly accusing someone of sexual harassment, even though nothing occurred, ...

False. Twelve (12) people did not say any such thing, as you well know rouge.

Two (2) people signed a carefully lawyered, professionally drafted press release, not an affadavit. A third person apparently spoke to the media. In most cases the reporters never met any of the three in person. All contact was phone, fax or Email.

In the case of one Vancouver Island paper, the quotes from one of these three people were inserted into the story after it left the reporter's desk, even though the reporter's byline stayed on the entire, expanded text.

... And I guess if there was no truth to it, Mr. West just decided he would leave those allegations unanswered and withdraw quietly from the race? And even though they have damaged his reputation with their false allegations, West won't sue these 12 women for libel?

You're right, rouge. There is damage to West's reputation that will undoubtedly affect his career as a mathematics instructor, just as you Liberals intended. I pointed this out to one of the reporters for the major media, and he just brushed it off, saying if the guy has been teaching for years and his employer has no problem with him, he can just keep on teaching as though nothing had happened. There was no acknowledgement whatsoever that stories like these would make it very awkward to appear in class, with an audience in their teens and twenties snickering and making snide remarks, and with students who are feminists refusing to take his classes, or taking his classes and then laying complaints in the hope of obtaining financial or other rewards.

The rabble/babble NDP partisan discussion forum was all over this issue several days ago, with a few of the more rabid partisans clinging to the idea that West did nothing more than skinny dipping. By the end of the detailed discussions most came to the conclusion that there is little chance this wasn't a credible story.

http://tinyurl.com/babble-discussion

LOL. Babble is NOT an NDP discussion board. The policy of babble is officially non-partisan, which is a total joke. It's largest source of funds is Liberal Buzz Hargrove, and its real stance is one of relentlessly baiting the NDP from both the communist left and the power-hungry Liberal "centre". Watching the head moderator Michelle savagely scolding the NDP while claiming to be a supporter is one of the funniest schticks around.

It's revealing that you would point to babble, rouge. Very revealing. Obviously you know it's a Liberal bucket-shop.

IF he did it, Frank. IF he did it.

What West did was wrong and he never should have been a candidate but I can't see how anyone doesn't see the usual Liberal politics in this.

Frank, under what circumstances are unproven allegations facts? Because any two people say so? Or just any two women? Joe McCarthy never had a problem getting two or three witnesses to tell him what he wanted to hear.

If West did what was described in the professionally drafted, skillfully lawyered press release, it would in most people's minds qualify as quite revolting conduct. If he did it.

But whether or not it would be an offence under the law isn't clear. The lawyers who vetted the press release were very, very careful in their choice of words. They did not allege any illegality, only conduct that was "grossly inappropriate" and "of a sexual nature". Notice that the key word here is "innappropriate", the same word the RCMP used 12 years earlier.

The modus operandi of the professionally drafted press release was to take an old story and cosmetically ramp it up so the commercial media could destroy West's candidacy, and then lay blame on the NDP for inadequate vetting. They did this by using accelerated adjectives such as "grossly" and "sexual" and by adding the word "erection".

The outraged victims were not able to agree from one news item to the next whether or not it was a "partial" erection (Frank, ... tell me, ... in your own personal experience, what the Hell is a partial erection?) or a full erection. But they were sure there was an erection.

And Frank, if you were in West's position, how would you go about proving that you did not have an erection 12 years ago? Any thoughts on that one?

Budd

"And Frank, if you were in West's position, how would you go about proving that you did not have an erection 12 years ago? Any thoughts on that one?"

No idea at all. But regardless of whether West was innocent, guilty, erect or whatever, its said that the the Greens had already promised the "girls involved" not to run him as a candidate. The NDP should have been told by someone who knew about this (Greens? people involved?) after he had been nominated 17 months earlier.

So my point is that from here, I can't comment on West's actions, I wasn't there,, I can only comment on how he was brought down the day after nominations closed.

Hey Budd

I clearly don't spend a lot of time here, so I didn't know I was debating with someone who is prone to ranting about completely baseless accusations. Your manner of argumentation undermines any points you might make.

I'm not a Liberal, as you assert. As I said in my earlier post I've never voted for them before, but I will this time to unseat Lunn. I've voted NDP and twice Green both federally and provincially for over 30 years. I was prepared to vote for West before this came up, even though I knew that the vote would be split. Now I believe there is a chance Lunn could be fired.

I don't post on Babble, but I read it a lot. Your conspiracy theory about it being a Liberal operation is quite laughable. Maybe I should join just so I can alert them to your accusations. I'm sure some of the Babblers who speak openly about their NDP party positions and affiliations would be rather amused.

Look, if West has been unjustly tarred by this massive conspiracy you are asserting, then he should be suing a lot of people for libel.

12 women according to this story:http://tinyurl.com/julian-west-story

Blame the victim seems to be typical of those who have worked against the rights of women in the past. It's sad to see it come from someone who claims to support a progressive party.

. . . and Budd

based on your manner of flinging conspiratorial accusations about, how are we to know you secretly aren't an operative for the Conservatives, convincing people to not vote for the only chance to kick Lunn out of his Parliament seat?

rouge: your link leads nowhere

rouge:
Your link doesn't work.

There were NOT twelve (12) women who made statements. Two (2) signed a press release, and another was quoted in some stories. Those stories made reference to a group of 12 people, aged 14 to 17 in 1996, but 12 people have not made statements, only two in writing and a third orally.

Budd,

I didn't leave a space before the URL last time: http://tinyurl.com/julian-west-story

The story indicates that the 2 women were willing to publicly speak for the group of 12.

Again, if the allegations are a slanderous conspiracy, as you assert, why isn't West suing them for libel, instead of resigning?

Meanwhile, the Honourable Gary Lunn appreciates your help in my riding.

rouge+chartreuse: Who did this reporter talk to???

I saw that story last week.

It makes reference to 12 people. But that's a claim made by 2 people. There's a difference, and any reasonable person know's that. In any other context, it would be clear that 2 people claiming to speak for 10 others are padding their argument for political purposes, nothing more.

Unfortunately, people who have become used to accepting a certain brand of psycho-babble will swallow this kind of thing, and be upset if anyone else calls BS. It would be interesting to see their reactions if this kind of thing were pulled on them.

Perhaps you could communicate with the reporter who prepared this story and ask her if she actually spoke to any of these supposed 12 people? Or would that run the risk of undermining your whole story line?

OK Budd,

I'll admit that I don't *know* whether the reporter spoke with more than 2 or 3 people. I assumed that normal journalistic ethics might apply, especially in the face of a publication's legal liabilities. But I'll grant you that minor point.

My "whole story line" doesn't rely on that detail. On the other hand your whole story line precisely relies on your unsupported-by-fact intuition that this whole issue is no more than some kind of Liberal slime job. It's really only a vague conspiracy theory. I suppose they paid the RCMP to investigate it 1996 too?

You can call BS all you like, but it doesn't mean anything if you are just making things up based on your partisan stance. And you are willing to slime Briony Penn with this as well, simply because she chose to run for the Liberals rather than another party that you might find more acceptable. Where is your supporting evidence?

And why don't you give that evidence to Julian West so he can sue these young women for what, according to you, is obvious libel? If your imaginings are true then that's what he should be doing, no?

And why are you attempting to dissuade people in my riding who for once have the chance to vote for a real human being that has a chance to beat out one of Harper's army of soulless right-wingers? Based on nothing more than your brand of innuendo.

You are doing exactly than what you accuse the Liberals of doing. Truthfully, if the tables were reversed and you had some kind of smearable info on Penn or even Lewis that you could use, you would indulge in exactly the kind of smear job that you accuse the Liberals of, wouldn't you?