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Vice Prez? It Matters
And not just because McCain's 71.
Sarah Palin: Waiting to drive.
Two brothers grew up; one ran off to sea, the other became vice president of the United States and neither was heard of again!
The vice presidency? The most anonymous job in the world! Those are a couple of views of the vice presidency from the past.
In the beginning, the vice president was the candidate who came in second in the presidential election, meaning that the president and vice president would be of opposing views, thus creating a rancorous relationship as when the second president, John Adams, had Thomas Jefferson as his VP. This situation led to the adoption of the 12th Amendment in 1804, which directed the electors to use separate ballots for the president and vice president, which meant that the VP, not having been involved in the presidential election, lost considerable prestige.
When the vice president was the guy (always guys so far) who got second prize, there was at least a person of presidential timbre next in line. The first death in office, Abraham Lincoln, ought to have been a wakeup call since his successor, Andrew Johnson, while serving almost all of Lincoln's second term, is not remembered kindly. Bear in mind, though, that as a southerner and former senator from Tennessee, he was in the invidious position of trying to bind the wounds of the Civil War. Perhaps he's best remembered as the first president to be impeached. (He was acquitted in the Senate, as was the second president impeached, Bill Clinton.)
James Garfield, the second president to be assassinated (in 1881), was an undistinguished president succeeded by the equally undistinguished Chester Arthur.
I pause to observe that until the 20th century, the rest of the world was largely unaffected by American foreign policy, which was, after all, still echoing the warning by George Washington to avoid "foreign entanglements."
The international importance of the presidency came in 1901 when William McKinley, who was responsible for getting the U.S. in a war with Spain, was assassinated, bringing to the White House Theodore Roosevelt, who finished McKinley's term and one on his own and was generally regarded as a "near great."
VP to prez: Truman and Johnson
It wasn't until the 1940s that the United States got very lucky. In 1944, Roosevelt dumped his previous vice president, Henry Wallace, in favour of a failed haberdasher and beneficiary of the infamous Prendergast machine in Kansas, Harry Truman. Truman is now considered a "near great," but the real story here is that Wallace, who was tossed aside for Truman, was on the far left and a great admirer of Stalin and the U.S.S.R. It's difficult to imagine Wallace standing up to Stalin in Europe or Korea.
In 1963, John F. Kennedy was killed and succeeded by Lyndon Johnson who, turned out to be great on the social side and a catastrophe in Vietnam.
While the party conventions have, on paper, the power to select the vice presidential candidate, since FDR and even before that the vice presidential nominee was appointed. This is not because he or she would be a capable president in case of the death of the president, but because he or she "balanced" the ticket.
When that became the rationale, we began facing breathtaking possibilities.
Striking a scary balance
Spiro Agnew was Nixon's eventually disgraced VP, and for good reason bumper stickers of the day read "keep Nixon healthy." Dan Quayle, who was George Bush Sr.'s VP, was embarrassingly light on smarts. And the current VP, Dick Cheney, is a man whose possible rise to the White House would make any sane person's hair curl in fear -- for their lives!
Starting in January 2009, we may have a 71-year-old man, John McCain, as president and Sarah Palin, 44*, as his successor should he die in office. Moreover -- and this point is often overlooked -- in 2012, the next election, McCain will be 75 and nearly 80 when his second term would end. This would put Palin in the driver's seat.
Palin's paleolithic politics
Palin has caused a flurry of excitement because she is so different. A former mayor of a small Alaska town and a two-year governor of Alaska, outspoken, anti-abortion, anti-environment, anti-gay couples, against gun control and a fervent moose hunter, she appeals to the right wing.
The trouble is, McCain already has that segment locked up.
She also appeals to women but will she attract women who usually vote Democrat or stay at home? Does she have political legs? Will the down home, small town mayor and moose hunter still be popular in November?
The critical part here is that when Agnew, Quayle, and Cheney were elected, the president was fairly young and healthy. McCain has passed his Biblical allotment and has medical issues.
What about Barack Obama? He is short on experience, having served just part of one term as a senator, but if you read his writings, it's apparent that he knows foreign affairs and is a deep thinker. And he has, at his right hand, the very experienced Joe Biden, a long-time member of the Senate and current chairman of the U.S. Senate Committee on Foreign Relations. He may not be the best choice for president should something happen to Obama, but he's sure as hell a better choice than Sarah Palin.
VP a big issue
For the first time in many a moon, in fact probably the first time in U.S. history, the potential vice president will be an election issue, and for sure for the first time the televised vice-presidential debate will be an important event.
There are a lot of issues domestic and foreign in this election. McCain must bear the unpopularity -- I need a better word than that! -- of George Bush. The economy is in tatters and American foreign policy a shambles. These are crosses Barack Obama doesn't have to bear.
For all that, standing alone, McCain is likely the better choice. But to win, he'll have to hope that the voters overlook his choice as vice president.
Considering Mr. Obama's running mate, that may be a very faint hope indeed.
*Corrected at 4 p.m. on Sept. 22.
Related Tyee stories:
- What Sarah Palin Shows
Sexism and racism alive and well in US politics. - Tina Fey for Vice President
If the election is a made-for-TV event, why not get a pro? - Is Obama Good for Canada?
How the US choice for president really affects us up here.
![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
- BC snuffs out AirCare test program
- AFN national chief Shawn Atleo to launch re-election bid
- Citizens group releases video to fight undead Bill C-30
- Conservative MP says he might vote against budget, then 'clarifies' his position
- Genetically modified plants won't take root with councillors in Richmond, BC
- Hundreds at Vancouver rally to support Quebec students
- Could Fort Mac become an eco-tourist hotspot?
- Rick Hansen's Man in Motion anniversary tour concludes in Vancouver
- The Gem of Canadian Science that Harper Killed
- Who Mowed Down the Premier?
- Canada's Economy, Deconstructed (by a 12 year-old)
- Death in Remand: a Tyee Inquiry
- Now Is the Time to Talk up Big Ideas
- Bill C-38: the Environmental Destruction Act
- Sexism Tinges Criticism of Teachers' Job Action
- Death In Remand: 'A Gut Feeling'
- Bias in BC's Pesticide Decision? Follow the Bouncing Verbs
- The Ethics of Addiction Studies
- The Gem of Canadian Science that Harper Killed
- Sexism Tinges Criticism of Teachers' Job Action
- Now Is the Time to Talk up Big Ideas
- The Ethics of Addiction Studies
- Bill C-38: the Environmental Destruction Act
- Alberta Fills Pipes with Corrosive Denial
- Bias in BC's Pesticide Decision? Follow the Bouncing Verbs
- How Our Immune Systems Exaggerate Fear
- BC biotech company seeks approval for GM apple
- What's Behind BC's Doors?
- Double lung recipient dances on Ellen show
- ISS astronauts grab DragonX space capsule by the tail with Canada Arm
- Metro Vancouver gas prices peak at record levels
- Ottawa posts $9-billion deficit in March despite pledge to avoid spending spree
- BC phases out AirCare to focus on fighting bigger vehicle emissions
- Tsunami senors to be dropped into deep sea off of Vancouver Island
- Student groups file court challenge against Quebec protest law
- ...while on the streets, pirates and ninjas put aside mutual animosity to join student protests
86
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garth_harris
3 years ago
the right stuff
she may be a joke to me and millions of other sane citizens on this planet,but sara palin looking down the barrel of a high powered rifle shooting moose ,can just as easily turn that weapon on some unsuspecting IRAQI SOLDIER in some demented voters mind and the screams of ,she's got the right stuff is gonna be heard for years to come.
call her ,prezident sarah ,yer future bubba in the white house.
and an SNL running joke for years to come
Frank
3 years ago
Rafe
Unless you spoke Spanish or lived in Canada in which case you had probably had US soldiers or marines invade your country a few times already.
nightbloom
3 years ago
Yes, I agree with the thrust
Yes, I agree with the thrust of this article - namely that the Vice Presidential selections (for better or worse) are shaping up to be game-changing factors in this race.
There's some interesting informed commentary circulating about the "Imperial Vice Presidency" of Dick Cheney, and how this has thrown traditional political roles out of wack with little grounding in the constitution. It's important to note that Obama's selection of Joe Biden was motivated by the same need for experience and gravitas on the ticket that motivated Bush's people to selection Cheney as his running mate. While it's difficult to image Biden wreaking as much havoc as Cheney, Biden would necessarily be a perpetuation of the "imperial vice presidency" begun under Bush Jr. Why do presidential candidates need a baby-sitter?
On the other hand, the selection of Sarah Palin was a "traditional" choice, in the sense of bringing aboard a "junior consul" who could be groomed to take over the ticket in 8 years. And what a game-changing pick this has proven to be. Everyone who was slapped in the face by the Rise of the Annointed One is now getting their retribution: Hillary-ites, white women ("pigs with lipstick"), and those who "cling" (Obama's words) to "guns 'n religion", as well as those outside of established liberal and neo-con power circles. And irony of ironies: Palin is more liminal than Obama by virtue of her life-choices, and has still pole-vaulted herself over insipid liberal oppression narratives (Obama did too, initially, but they dragged him back into line). She's the true outsider, and this will only be emphasized when she faces down the incredibly gaffe-prone Joe Biden.
As for health & age, Rafe neglects to mention Bob Barker's - I mean Joe Biden's! previous health problems, which is why they haven't released his medical records to date. The guy has had a brain aneurysm.
G West
3 years ago
Brain Aneurysm
Doesn't seem like a big deal to me - the US has managed for eight years with a president who doesn't have a brain.
nightbloom
3 years ago
That really does put
That really does put everything in perspective doesn't it - Obama OR McCain - the quality of leadership really can't get any worse than it's been.
On a side note, the entertainment industry seems intent on driving voters into McCain/Palin's arms. Inane comments by Matt Damon and Lindsay Lohan were silly enough, but Sandra Bernhard has joked that Palin should get gang-raped by black men in New York, and SNL has released a second skit joking that Todd Palin has incestuous sex with his daughters. It really does boggle the mind. Political satire and lampooning policy positions is one thing, but I find this totally unprecedented, execrable, desperate, and detrimental to the already-quite-low quality of debate in this election. It marks a new low, and I think there needs to be a post-mortem on the info-tainment industry's handling of this campaign once it's all over (irrespective of outcome).
G West
3 years ago
Totally unprecedented?
How soon we forget.
Not all that long ago the big deal was a New Yorker cover, remember that?
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/07/14/america/NA-US-Obama-New-Yorker.php
Pretty much all of a piece - American media nonsense and politics at the usual level..they all reap what they sow.
snert
3 years ago
They have?
Should read mismanaged.
nightbloom
3 years ago
That was when the New York
That was when the New York establishment was trying to torpedo Obama in his struggle against Hillary. That's over & done with. However, the sex slurs (gang-rape and incest) strike an even lower note. Notice how the liberal Feminist establishment is biting its collective tongue. They always sell out their principles for politics.
G West
3 years ago
Oh I dunno
The New York establishment was 'trying' to be funny...it's hardly over when more than a tiny fraction of the US populace think he's still a Muslim -
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2008-04-01-obama-muslim_N.htm
Hardly over and done with.
As for your usual attack on the liberal left, I'll take that bet and raise you Glenn Beck and Michael Savage any day.
nightbloom
3 years ago
Yes, there's ignorance
Yes, there's ignorance enough to go around.
I don't see it is as a tit-for-tat situation though. The self-appointed "Fourth Estate" (media and info-tainment sector) has generally behaved atrociously, and was derelict in its responsibilities long before Palin entered the picture. It's a profession without professionalism, at least in the U.S. Neither side should console itself with the sins of the other, so I take no satisfaction in Beck or Savage either.
I'm sure most reasonable people would agree that making gags inviting black men to gang-rape the white female nominee probably doesn't do much to advance the state of political critique (even in stand-up comedy); nor does spurious gags targeting that same nominee's spouse with incest slurs.
It's like everyone on the ideological liberal-left has gone temporarily insane since Palin joined the Republican ticket, and they are totally flabergasted and mortified that their Annointed One actually might not have a cake-walk into the White House, and may have to roll up his sleeves and work for it just like every other presidential hopeful in U.S. history has had to do.
seth
3 years ago
Sarah outs Harper
Thank our lucky stars for Sarah Palin. Her and John McCain spell out in bold type exactly what Stephen Harper has in mind for us if we were ever so foolish as to give him a majority government. We need some real journalists and party leaders with guts to direct the politically correct media in the right direction.
Look at Stephen Harper's Alliance church website in Boulder Colorado or Sarah Palin's and Stockwell Day's Pentecostal website in St. Louis and you'll see what Harper's roughly 70 committed fundamentalist MP's and several score of social conservatives have in store for us with the absolute power of a majority government Oddly "truth" is one of the tenets of the Harper's Alliance church dogma.
Most of Harper's MPs have views in lock step with Sarah Barracuda's but Harper has been successful in muzzling them aided by a compliant press. When NeoCon spokesmen are allowed out it is always one of Harper's handful of more liberal secular MP's like James Moore.
Kevin Phillips in his book American Theocracy outlined the American fundamentalist strategy which can be summarized as govern as a normal just right of the centre party until absolute power is achieved i.e. the presidency house and senate majorities or a Canadian majority government then slam the country with the religious agenda. In other words first you give them your hand then ya give them the fist. It was these same fundamentalists led by James Dobson - one of Harpers mentors - who forced John McCain to accept Sarah Palin.
seth
3 years ago
Who Says so!!!
For those who doubt read the following article by award winning Journalist Marci McDonald former Washington bureau chief for Maclean’s.
www.walrusmagazine.ca/articles
/2006.10-politics-religion-stephen-harper-and-the-theocons/
Or Douglas Todd's article in the Vancouver Sun Published: Saturday, August 18, 2007
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/
story.html?id=80f6fdff-cc0e-4a08-9b96-76f3db32808e&p=1
Some excerpts:
" ...Bruce Foster, head of policy studies at Mount Royal College in Calgary, believes Harper keeps his religious beliefs close to his chest because he's a strategic thinker who worries it would hurt his chances of winning a majority government.
"If Harper came out and said those who don't know the Lord are 'lost,' are doomed, he'd be held up to ridicule," Foster said. "In a multicultural, diverse, relativistic country like Canada, that's toxic stuff for most voters........"
“Some of these faith-oriented people conduct themselves in such a way that they scare the hide off the secular,” he (Preston Manning) confided later. He counseled newly elected MPs to curb their zeal. “The preference is to ride into Parliament with a speech that will peel the paint off the ceiling,” he told them, “but you’ll set your cause back fifty years.” Much of his advice amounted to spin control: ditch the God talk and avoid the temptation to play holier-than-thou. “You have to advocate righteousness,” he said, “without appearing self-righteous.” ......."
With a Harper majority we could be looking forward to a New Capital Punishment law, abortion banned, gay rights gone Jail time for anybody possessing marijuana, medical marijuana recriminalized, Canada's prison population doubling in size., educational institutions required to teach creationism for federal funding.
The CRTC will be gone allowing big telecom to force out any little guy competition and require us to pay all kinds of ridiculous service charges Similarly the banks. Listeria,Mad Cow and Walkerton will become daily events. Tar Sands projects will ruin Alberta's environment forever. Offshore drilling in BC will start the day after the election. Carbon pollution will double.
Just listen to Sarah and McCain if you need the complete list.
nightbloom
3 years ago
Seth said:Quote:With a
Seth said:
[INFLAMMATORY COMMENT REMOVED HERE...]
Yeah right, they're going to mandate the teaching of creationism...will they first amend the constitution to make education a federal jurisdiction? Good luck with that. What a totally [...AND HERE. PLEASE REFRAIN FROM THOSE KINDS OF REMARKS. THEY ADD NOTHING TO YOUR ARGUMENT AND GOAD OTHERS INTO RESPONDING IN KIND, WHICH DEGRADES THE QUALITY OF THIS FORUM. -MODERATOR.] post.
Like I said, the liberal-left seems to have gone suddenly insane.
Frank
3 years ago
nightbloom
Unless and until they start advocating for McCain-Palin, I don't think we can worry too much about their sanity.
On the other hand regurgitating right-wing drivel about Obama in the US or the NDP in Canada would be like shooting fish in a barrel so I won't bother. Its all out there in google-land anyway.
I only wish Harper would allow his Palin types to apeak (besides Stockwell, who is damn funny I admit).
G West
3 years ago
No it's not tit for tat
The right wing bloviators in the US are the origninators of this particular band of necrophilia.
Have a look at what Michael Savage thinks about all leftists some time - or remember Glenn Beck's musings on air about what it would feel like to kill Michael Moore.
There is no comparison - the loony right wing is far more dangerous than the left any time...and remember, they have the automatic weapons...
Remember this?
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/07/30/unitarians_are_rattled_by_attack_on_church/
lynn
3 years ago
Seth
Yes, same policy at work here.... and they say Harper is very good at chess.
We should closely watch his every move.
As that Walrus article states the idea is to fool the public into thinking he is moving to the left.
Once he gets that majority, casual sweater is thrown off.
Checkmate. Sharp right turn.
Bring on the brass knuckles..errrrr...buttons.
I'm glad you brought up Kevin Philips, Seth. I don't know if you caught him on Bill Moyers Journal the other day - a really interesting discussion.
Here's the link (transcript there as well):
http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/2008/09/bill-moyers-kev.html
JHolst
3 years ago
Correction from History Nerd
Hi Rafe,
Just wanted to make a quick correction.
You mention Lincoln as the first American president to die in office. He was in fact the third, behind these two gentlemen:
William Henry Harrison:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Henry_Harrison
-His death give us his Accidency, John Tyler;
And Zachary Taylor:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zachary_Taylor#Death
-His death gave us Millard Fillmore.
I do find a little funny that Rafe missed Millard Fillmore, given how he used to reference him on his show.
All that aside, good article on the Republican's latest sideshow.
garth_harris
3 years ago
QUOTE " I'm glad you brought
QUOTE " I'm glad you brought up Kevin Philips, Seth. I don't know if you caught him on Bill Moyers Journal the other day - a really interesting discussion". END QUOTE
yes,indeed that was interesting to say the least and the body language Bill Moyers was exhibiting could not hide how tickled pink ol Billy was hearing the FACTS from some one as CREDIBLE as Kevin Philips.
ol Billy was scootchin around his seat and clasping his hands like a kid waiting fer an ice cream on a hot southern sunday after church and being told us sinners is all gona fry.
yes Billy really enjoyed that interview...and so did i , immensely !
ripponfalls
3 years ago
Humour
On the other hand, McCain/Palin has been a godsend for comics. I've never laughed so much in all my life.
Here's one:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-kelly/the-delicate-subject-of-j_b_127359.html
and here's another
http://www.youtube.com/user/SaraBenincasa
dave49
3 years ago
Tabloid headlines
Yes, Sarah Palin as VP of the USA is a scary thought. However, take a look at the tabloid headlines as you go through the grocery store checkouts. There are enough beginnings of juicy stories with the pregnant 17 year-old daughter, charges of inappropriate use of power, etc.
Hopefully this flurry of dirt-digging will find some crap that sticks and scare off the voters.
I don't understand how citizens of the USA can keep voting Republican. Economic disasters and Republicans go together as recent history shows. Over 20 years ago, it was the Savings and Loan crisis. Recently, the Dot Bomb (although I admit that is a tough one to pin on them), the Enron (electricity trading market) debacle, corporate governance inadequacies (WorldCom, etc,) and now the sub-prime mortgages and lack of regulation of investment banking. Note that three of these (and Sept 11, 2001) happened on Bush Junior's watch. A pretty grim record!
Citizens of the USA, don't vote Republican, it only encourages them!
no1important
3 years ago
I think it is time for the
I think it is time for the Tyee to send Raif Mair packing.
nominalis
3 years ago
# of press interviews by VP candidates.
Biden : 86+
Palin : 2
Her threatening to go to war with Russia over Georgia kinda tore it.
It seems the Republican strategy is to let America stay enamoured by the make-over she appeared on the national stage with.
"Oh, she's so hot!" (best not let her open her mouth and spoil the illusion)
To this day the only real uplift of women in US Presidential politics seems to be the one given by their brassieres.
Oh, how I miss Hillary!
nightbloom
3 years ago
Well, you can delete the
Well, you can delete the thread into bland oblivion, but that doesn't change the fact that 'Seth' posted pure paranoid fiction (which I equated with an outburst of flatulence). The fact is that none of the flights of fancy he mentioned are in the Conservative platform, which make his posts a work of pure alarmist misinformation, paranoid invention, and delusional fabrication.
As I've said on other threads: show me the theocractic policies. They don't exist. You can't point to single policy. Seth's statements are pure innuendo.
And what is "New Capital Punishment" anyway? Is that a post-modern variation? Puhleeeze.
CF1
3 years ago
I'm very concerned that a
I'm very concerned that a nut such as Palin could be President:
http://richarddawkins.net/article,3068,Palin-average-isnt-good-enough,Sam-Harris-Los-Angeles-Times
.
G West
3 years ago
You'd expect to see them in the platform?
How dumb do you think sweatervest steve is?
Of course they're not in the 'platform' they are in these peoples' heads, in their veins, in their DNA.
And if you don't believe me, have a listen to Tony Clement talking about Insite.
Or Baird the bellowing bugle responding to Dr Julio Montaner after his statements today:
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=ef2a7c01-da1c-42c1-8254-14f589d1826f
frank2
3 years ago
What happened to Rafe? He
What happened to Rafe?
He wrote
"For all that, standing alone, McCain is likely the better choice. But to win, he'll have to hope that the voters overlook his choice as vice president."
Even the Economist called for a return to the "real John McCain." It is daily becoming clearer that McCain is prepared to sacrifice any principle for electoral advantage.
And now it appears there may be serious cracks in the narrative regarding his wartime experiences and follow up, which raise serious questions about his single defining virtue -- honour and loyalty to his fellows. See Sydney H. Schanberg's Nation piece at
http://www.truthout.org/article/mccain-and-pow-cover-up
RickW
3 years ago
nightbloom
How many political campaign promises made over the last 140 years can you point to as having been kept? And how many that weren't promised, were enacted?
Anyone who believes in the literal interpretation of promises made on the stump had better keep wearing those rose-coloured glasses.
icurhuman2
3 years ago
The Absolute Epitome of Tokenism:
McCain, or his advisers, obviously needed to harvest as many disenfranchised female voters - who believed their time had come to put a woman into the top job - or they wouldn't have chosen this particular horror. The unarguably poor performance of the Republicans under the Bush administration should condemn them to a minority, especially in the light of economic collapse, so any strategy or ploy to enhance their chances has been taken, even to the point of ridiculous tokenism and pandering to the mindless. That this woman appears to be a very poor choice as a politician seems to have had little impact on hard-core conservatives, many of whom would rather see the arrival of a Messiah and the End of Days. Should this woman find herself with absolute power one must worry about the absolute corruption that often follows and the ramifications for the world.
Yursowrong
3 years ago
Ya think?
"A former mayor of a small Alaska town and a two-year governor of Alaska, outspoken, anti-abortion, anti-environment, anti-gay couples, against gun control and a fervent moose hunter, she appeals to the right wing."
Blindingly astute observation, Ralph.
Grumpy
3 years ago
Black day in November.......
.......if Pallin becomes VP; this woman scares the s*** out of me. Right wing religious zealots are the most dangerous people in the world!
seth
3 years ago
wonderful
I am so happy to see that in this day and age there still exists a tender delicate petal that blooms in the twilight and trusts a politician with a proven track record of lying. It seems that either Harper has broken his covenant with the CMAlliance to always tell the truth or his church has issued a Fatwa giving him permission to break the Ninth Commandment. - Thou shall not bear false witness.
If one reads the articles I attached both written by reputable journalists, one can see Harper has a vested interest in keeping his and his cadre of MP's true beliefs hidden. And he has been very effective at it.
Party platform give me a break. What politician ever pays attention to it the day after the election. Fact is we have no idea what a politician will do with a majority government. Almost all Tory politicians are anti abortion and pro death penalty so new capital punishment and abortion laws are distinct possibilities.
Given Harpers proven propensity to lying and the set of beliefs espoused by a majority of his MP's and his religous fanatic associates, the Canadian patriot must assume the worst and not give this character a second chance.
Note that the feds fund university's and medicare - a provincial responsibility.
Frank
3 years ago
Two words
"Lie detector"
Just sit each party leader down in front of the cameras and go over their party platform and ask them if they believe in each of the points. Then ask them a few random questions sent in by viewers and whether there's anything they want to do but didn't want to put in the platform.
nightbloom
3 years ago
If you can't point to any
If you can't point to any specific theocratic policies, if you can't show any evidence for your innuendo, that what you are saying is simply pre-election scare-mongering. If religious-minded Canadian voters feel more inclined to vote Conservative, that's a whole other issue (and it's their democratic right). But don't invent fictions about capital punishment and creationism in schools. It's absurd.
Tony Clement articulated a legitimate and rational objection to InSite. There was nothing theocratic about it, and many Canadians agree with the viewpoint he articulated. You might not, but don't mis-characterize it as some sort of religious-based objection. I and many others got exactly what he was saying, even if we didn't agree.
nightbloom
3 years ago
The G&M's Lynn Crosbie on
The G&M's Lynn Crosbie on the seething misogyny, racism and Christophobia of the liberal-left's anti-Palin hysteria:
Memo to Bernhard: If you want to attack Palin, do it like a grown-up
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080922.wcrosbie23/BNStory/Entertainment/home
G West
3 years ago
Palin is a farce
Montaner and others - in more than a dozen peer reviewed journals - have shown that there is a scientific case for harm reduction. A case that should be applied, making the necessary changes for local conditions, all across the country.
Harper/Clement never address the fact or the science. You can call that rational, I assure you it isn't.
As for your continuing defence of Palin, I simply can't understand it.
Any country that wants a vacuous non-entity for a vice president is more than welcome to her.
As for misogyny, racism, sexism and Christophobia, I'd say you've just described the Right wing and its approach to Obama.
A high proportion of the right think that Obama isn't a Christian, that he's nothing more than an uppity black man, that the fact he didn't pick Hillary demonstrates his racism and that his election would lead to the demist of the Republic.....
I think there's every chance that some cracker, [COMMENT REMOVED FOR LEGAL CONCERNS. -MODERATOR.] will kill Obama (and will almost certainly try) if he actually is elected.
If, god-forbid, McCain gets the keys, the whole of the world will be praying to whatever God they believe in, that his worm-out ticker won't succumb for at least 4 years.
Sandra Bernhard is, you might want to remember, supposed to be funny - she does it for money – and anyone who suggests she’s somehow a spokesperson for the left is just being silly.
Perhaps you’ve heard the objections of your former old conservative 'mentor' to Ms Palin…he’s no mouthpiece for the liberal left now is he?
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/09/email-of-the-da.html
She is, as Sullivan puts it, a farce. And that is pretty funny....
G West
3 years ago
errata
that's 'demise' of the republic.
G West
3 years ago
oh, and by the way
Maybe Crosbie should try googling Obama + Muslim.....
garth_harris
3 years ago
QUOTE "A high proportion of
QUOTE "A high proportion of the right think that Obama isn't a Christian, that he's nothing more than an uppity black man, that the fact he didn't pick Hillary demonstrates his racism and that his election would lead to the demist of the Republic.....
I think there's every chance that some cracker, [COMMENT REMOVED FOR LEGAL CONCERNS. -MODERATOR.] will kill Obama (and will almost certainly try) if he actually is elected."END QUOTE
ain't every black man/woman with intelligence and a high regard for civic duty ,considered ...UPPITY ?
and ain't every SARA PALIN TYPE considered the backbone of the great United Mistakes of Amerika ?
She is MAJOR MOM !gun toting ,religious fanatic and all around lipstick wearing political animal.
if i were an amerikan male with a warm gun in mah hand,i would want ol sara beside me shooting varmints
yosemite sam and sara palin are the comitragedy figures that just might rule the world
ain't Amerikan Politiks a GAS ?
open racism ,sexism,and every "ISM" you can think of.
and the WHOLE WORLD suffers the CONSEQUENCES.
ain't it a GAS ?
Fish-counter
3 years ago
One thing about Sarah Palin...
[SEXIST COMMENT REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]
nightbloom
3 years ago
Gwest, what a morbid post.
Gwest, what a morbid post. You seem preoccupied with surreal nightmare scenarios involving the deaths of both presidential candidates. Is that really your outlook for the future?
Having exchanged e-mails with Andrew Sullivan scarcely makes him my "mentor" as you suggest. Yes, Sullivan has - by and large - become a mouthpiece of the liberal-left (with token jabs against "Canadian style" health care to show he's not entirely a chameleon). I actually don't follow him as much anymore, as a result of some of the more obsessive trends in his writing. After being such a staunch apologist and cheerleader for the Republicans for so long, he underwent a bit of a slow-motion collapse and re-invention as a result of (1) his private hypocrisies being made public following his "sexual McCarthyism" during the Clinton scandal, and (2) having acted as one of the worst offenders in U.S. journalism in the aftermath of 9/11 with his hunting down of "unpatriotic" Americans in public life who were insufficiently enthusiastic about the second Iraq War. At least Hitchen had the decency to have himself waterboarded (a penitential act which stuck me as an almost religious gesture for this outspoken atheist apologist...a bit like King Henry II's concession to submit publicly to corporal punishment in penitence for Thomas Beckett's murder).
I found also found Sullivan's incessant (literally incessant) hostility to Hillary Clinton to be tiresome and borderline pathological (even though I also favoured Obama over Clinton for the Democratic ticket), and now he's pulling the same schtick with Palin. He was totally shameless in perpetuating and protracting the scurrilous canard that Palin had not given birth to Trig (the infant boy with Down Syndrome) earlier this year (and that Trig was Bristol's natural son). More McCarthyism. See the pattern? The one break from the Palinophobic barrage he has offered the readers of his blog was a tender photograph of Bristol's Hockey-Muffin fiancé caressing the infant Trig. Andrew Sullivan is a man of peculiar fixations.
dave49
3 years ago
The Party That Wrecked America
JH Kunstler on the US election www.kunstler.com
The Party That Wrecked America
It's official: John McCain and Sarah Palin are up in the latest polls now that the conventions are over. This is a positive development. It will give the Obama-Biden campaign incentive to get serious. It would have been a disaster for Obama-Biden to come out of this past week ahead. It might have prompted them to kick back and be complacent.
McCain-Palin have nowhere to go now but down, and I will tell you exactly how this will happen. They can run away from President Bush, but they can't run away from the Republican Party. The Republicans will be regarded from now on as "the party that wrecked America." Over the weeks ahead, as carnage in the economy and the financial markets ramps up, it will become increasingly clear. It is important that this meme be spread through the internet. I urge all commentators who read this blog to adopt and spread the idea that the Republicans are "the party that wrecked America." It will work because it is the truth. Use it freely. Don't bother attributing it to me. Just spread the word. Get the meme going.
The Party That Wrecked America -- an apt description for the Republicans.
dave49
3 years ago
Joe Biden
Yes, Joe Biden, Barack Obama's VP running mate has lots of experience compared to Sarah Palin. However, I remember it came out many years ago that he 'sort of' fudged his background. It seems that in his law school, he finished something like 56th in a class of 57. He apparently led people to believe he had done much better than scraping last place.
ME2
3 years ago
A really sary subject
Grumpy sed a day ago :
"Right wing religious zealots are the most dangerous people in the world!"
What's REALLY scary, Grumpy, is that Palin is no "zealot", she's just an ordinary, garden-variety Fundamentalist, of which the US - Republicans and Democrats - is full of.
Harper's Reform / Alliance Party is where they've collected together in Canada, but it isn't safe enough here - yet - to turn them loose in polite society.
nightbloom
3 years ago
dave49 has a point - the
dave49 has a point - the campaign needs to move beyond the identity politics of the individual candidates and focus on efforts to re-brand the opposing ticket in a negative fashion while more securely positioning their own on concrete policy issues. Obama's "Moses Parting the Waters" routine was getting tiresome. Too much focus on personalities, not enough on policy trends and big ideas. Hopefully there's still time for some half-decent policy debate, now that the Dems have had the change to work out their knee-jerk Palinophobia.
nightbloom
3 years ago
Debate Camp
Doh! Look out - Obama is starting "Debate Camp"
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080923/D93CMTM00.html
Of course, regular posters here at The Tyee need no such 'debate camp' to practice their own gesticulations, posturings, ritual formulations, and dogmatic genuflections. I'm looking forward to joining in on debate post-mortem exercises that will inevitably occur on these threads (for debates on both sides of the 49th). Cheers =)
G West
3 years ago
Look who's talking
...regular posters here at The Tyee need no such 'debate camp' to practice their own gesticulations, posturings, ritual formulations, and dogmatic genuflections.
sez nightbloom.
You're still at it - ignoring the real facts about Palin and pretending that the offensive stuff - and the kind of thing that leads to death and violence comes from right-wing prejudice and narrow-mindedness.
I hope, after Obama becomes president, I don't have to remind you of the one-sidedness of your own political posturing and where that kind of blindness has led America and the world.
It certainly has led to the collapse of a rotten economic system. If the world decides to junk the greenback as the international standard of exchange then all bets are off.
I don't agree with a lot of what Sullivan says, but he has the advantage over you of being willing to admit when he's wrong!
nightbloom
3 years ago
It was meant tongue-in-cheek
It was meant tongue-in-cheek - lighten up.
Btw - like I said - "gaffe prone":
'Obama Tells Biden to Keep Quiet'
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2008/09/23/2008-09-23_barack_obama_tells_running_mate_joe_bide.html?print=1&page=all
G West
3 years ago
No it isn't...
That's your typical attitude my friend.
Sorry, but that's the way it is....
You very seriously support and doggedly fight for your ideas - no matter how wrong and illogical they are.
It's touching - but not very convincing.
The demonization of the liberal left in American public discourse is almost complete in right-wing circles.
The fact is that I'd like those people to fight for their ideas - but to do it without calling everyone who disagrees with them cockroaches.
When you can show me that the loudmouths on the right have stopped acting like louts and bullies who'd be happier if everyone they disagree with would just catch AIDS and die I'll start listening to your case that Sarah Palin has been mugged for being a magic Christian.
nightbloom
3 years ago
The only person actually
The only person actually being "demonized" on these threads is Sarah Palin. I'd have to say that the processes of "demonizing" conservative public figures is well under way on both sides of the border. Whereas conservatives seem content with aiming a little lower - simply portraying their opponents as bumblers rather than Beelzebubs. Much more believable, and it appears to be working.
nightbloom
3 years ago
...and while Obama attends
...and while Obama attends 'debate camp' look what McCain is doing: 'MCCAIN SUSPENDS CAMPAIGN TO FOCUS ON ECONOMY; WANTS DEBATE DELAY'
http://www.drudgereport.com/flash1.htm
Now isn't that rather presidential of him?
G West
3 years ago
nightbloom
Whatever demonizing Ms Palin has had to endure pales in comparison to the serial attacks by right wingers on the liberal left.
As long as your side of this debate has avatars like Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Michael Savage and a whole lot of others who get their jollies from suggesting that liberals are basically on a par with pond scum I don't think your current campaign for Ms Palin has much chance of being taken seriously.
The worst thing anyone's said about her in the press is that she's inexperienced and may well be a Christian fundamentalist.
As far as I can tell, that conclusion is pretty much unassailable.
As far as McCain focussing on the economy, please, give me a break. McCain might like a debate delay - but it's not because he's doing anything worthwhile by the current cock-up on Wall Street.
Please. Try another tack.
nightbloom
3 years ago
Gwest said:Quote:The worst
Gwest said:
Then you've clearly been living under a rock these last few weeks.
Fish-counter
3 years ago
Obama blew it
Obama shoulda hooked up with Hillary, to get the women's vote. The TV-VP debate would have been rockin' with a fundamentalist pit-bull-with-lipstick vs. a cougar healthcare reformer. Catfight of the year!
lynn
3 years ago
When the clock strikes midnight
http://cartoonbox.slate.com/hottopic/?image=1&topicid=265
G West
3 years ago
nightbloom
The other stuff is personal...it has bugger all to do with her as a public figure...the fact that anyone is getting bent out of shape because she has five kids, one of whom has Down syndrome, that she 'talks' to God or that she has a pregnant daughter is just filler that SHE'S used to create an image for the Borg.
Your whole thesis about her being unfairly attacked is bogus...no one in the media (I'm talking media here and not stand up comics) has said she is no better than a cockroach. That kind of thing comes out of the mouths of the guys I cited every day - it has already led to several unstable individuals picking up a gun and setting out to shoot liberals, leftists and gays.
You know this nightbloom - and your serial refusal to put the blame for that kind of irresponsible behavior at the same time you pretend that an unqualified political neophyte is suitable material for the US presidency is inexplicable.
In my view.
nightbloom
3 years ago
Lynn, I love that cartoon!
Lynn, I love that cartoon! Now that's the kind of witty political critique I like. Not a single clod of mud thrown, and the point nevertheless delivered unsparingly, while everyone gets a chuckle out of it.
Fish-counter, I think a lot of people feel the same way. Obama's VP pick is both uninspired and uninspiring. It affirms every critique uttered about Obama (inexperience, weak, lightweight neophyte seeks Washington babysitter) and threatens to perpetuate the extra-constitutional reign of the "Imperial Vice Presidency" that has so damaged U.S. credibility during the Bush-Cheney years. Hillary (and Bill) would have been a total pain-in-the-ass for him, but she still would have been a better pick than Biden (even her sworn enemies concede that she has one of the finest legal minds in America, and pay homage to her endurance, will and intelligence).
That's why Palin's selection is such a knock-out blow, and why liberal are spinning their wheels overtime on non-policy matters, trying to discredit Palin with scurrilous innuendo about her family and her reproductive choices. Liberals are running scared, and they can hear the bell toll - everything about their current tactic targeting Palin screams 'desperation'.
Frank
3 years ago
nightbloom
If it was a knock-out blow why has Obama moved into the lead since the Republican Convention according to the latest Washington Post-ABC News poll?
It was a "knock-out blow" with the Republican faithful. That's it, everyone else has been laughing ever since.
G West
3 years ago
Still not facing up to reality my friend
What do YOU think of McCain's latest cringe-worthy suggestion that they postpone the dabate and he and Obama ride off to Washington to save the greenback?
I'd say that's pretty much the dictionary definition of 'desperation'.
And furthermore, have you ANY idea of where John McCain placed in HIS graduating class?
He's an old man, full of anger, hatred and old ideas - it's time his generation retired and got off the stage - for God's sake, if he's elected he'll take the oath older than Reagan. And look at the mess that failure created.
Anyway, that's enough talk about a woman who's really barely capable of running a city the size of Sidney (Vancouver Island).
I'm bored with American politics - and much more interested in addressing the horror show of sweater vest Steve getting a majority here in MY country.
Frank
3 years ago
McCain's class
John McCain placed where his daddy wanted him to be placed G. After all, the reason he was even in that class was because of daddy. Quite similar to Dubya actually.
lynn
3 years ago
When the clock strikes midnight (one more time!)
The link above to the Palin cartoon has now changed to a different cartoon, not the one I originally posted.
This is a better link ( I hope ) to the "glass slipper" cartoon:
http://editorialcartoonists.com/cartoon/display.cfm/58576
G West
3 years ago
no kidding Frank....Palin's not the only 'weak link!
Ole buddy Rushbo has claimed Barack Obama only got through Harvard because of affirmative action. Which is patently wrong of course - not only did Obama do very well at Harvard, he was also editor of the Law Review.
But there's another kind of 'affirmative action', as you point out Frank. The kind that John McCain gained from: As the son of a decorated admiral, McCain was afforded many advantages in his education and career - things Obama couldn't even dream of.
In high school, he was known for partying and a legendarily repulsive personality - but not for academic prowess. Despite his high school 'career' he was accepted to the Naval Academy at Annapolis.
Affirmative Action?
Once admitted to Annapolis, McCain would continue his reckless ways, fighting and partying and receiving demerits. He eventually graduated in the bottom five per cent of his class. Despite his low ranking, he was accepted into the Air Pilot Flight Training School. Other people in his graduating class who were in the top 10% of his class were not admitted into the program.
Affirmative Action?
Despite his awful performance at Annapolis, he was put into a prestigious Navy flying program. McCain would crash five U.S. planes while learning how to fly.
Affirmative Action?
When McCain was shot down he was far away from his intended target. An instructor said McCain was "positively one of the weakest students to pass our way, and received consistently poor marks and a number of Dangerous Down grades assigned by more than one instructor. He had no real ability and was clearly out of his element in an airplane, and way over his head even as a junior naval officer."
Affirmative Action?
McCain only served 20 hours in combat, yet he received 28 medals, his only notable accomplishment was getting his plane shot down and being saved by a Vietnamese peasant and becoming a Prisoner of War. With no other qualifications he subsequently was promoted to Captain.
Affirmative Action?
Naval Hero?
Potential President?
nightbloom
3 years ago
I knew the Clinton would
I knew the Clinton would pull this: Bill Clinton: I'll campaign for Obama 'after the Jewish holidays'
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/24/bill-clinton-ill-campaign-for-obama-after-the-jewish-holidays/
They did a very similar thing to John Kerry. Their only chance for 2012 is if Obama loses.
Btw...
“I think that she and her husband and their kids come across gutsy, spirited and real,” he said in an interview to be broadcast Wednesday night. “I have significant disagreements with her about any number of social and economic issues but I find her an appealing person and I think that it’s best to say that Senator McCain looks like he knew what he was doing. He picked somebody who gave him a lot of energy, a lot of support.”
G West
3 years ago
that's just baloney nightbloom
Hilary has been working hard for Obama ever since the convention...saying what he did about Palin was, in my view, damning with faint praise.
As Letterman observed, she's still circling the theatre in the minivan...given the results in yesterdays WaPo tracking poll, I'd say McCain's going to need a little more than energy.
Speaking of which, did you see Bush's dead man walking 'performance' last night.
Looks like he's on Valium to me.
nightbloom
3 years ago
Good Lord!
More evidence that the liberal-left has flipped its collective lid over Sarah Palin. This is beyond irresponsible:
Florida Congressman: Palin 'Don't Care Too Much What They Do With Jews and Blacks'
nightbloom
3 years ago
Full article
I'd intended to link the full article: http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/09/florida-congres.html
G West
3 years ago
You rely on US Congressmen for your views?
My heavens.
I take it you're unaware of the plans that many fundamentalist Christians have for Jews?
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_/ai_93084876
From the National Catholic Reporter, of all places....
nightbloom
3 years ago
Bill Clinton spins for McCain
Analysts are now opening commenting on Bill Clinton's calculated helpful boosts to McCain. Another example for anyone still in denial:
Bill Clinton: Don't 'Overly Parse' McCain Request to Delay Debate
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/09/bill-clinton-do.html
nightbloom
3 years ago
That should be "openly
That should be "openly commenting" on Bill Clinton's helpful boosts to McCain in the media.
G West
3 years ago
I saw Clinton's interviews
He wasn't boosting Palin or McCain - people see what they like in things I guess.
In my view, Clinton is doing everything he can - despite the feverish imaginings of the right wing guttersnipe press - to ensure the Democrats kick the daylights out of the GOP - as they so richly deserve to have done to them.
Some people just read the wrong blogs and listen to the wrong talk-jocks so much of the time that they start to believe in such nonsense.
nightbloom
3 years ago
You seem to have a
You seem to have a rose-coloured view of the Clintons' motivations, as well as a short memory. Don't you remember how Bill pulled off the gloves as Hillary's "bad cop" to her "good" during Mrs. Clinton's race with Obama? The whole Democratic Party was screaming for him to shut up 'n sit down. Have you forgotten just how close the Clinton's actually are to McCain in so many ways (personally and politically)? Some might argue that the real ticket - if party loyalties were more fluid - should have been McCain-Clinton. They even like each other too, and I don't think Hillary actually likes too many people.
An interesting perspective on Obama's "debate camp" and what similar over-thinking did to Gore back in 2000:
Dumbing Down Obama: the gumpification of Obama
http://www.creativeminorityreport.com/2008/09/dumbing-down-obama.html
Obama's people had better not over-thinking this one. No ostentatious posturing, no more "Moses parting the waters", and no more phoney black ghetto-drawl. Be real, for once. McCain & Palin certainly are. And good grief, someone muzzle Joe "Bob Parker" Biden already!
G West
3 years ago
Of course I remember all that
That's politics nightbloom - Hillary wanted to win...Like I said, you listen to only one 'side' of every conversation.
Similarly, you only answer the questions you feel like answering.
I'm too busy now, but I'll post something later which thoroughly debunks that whole 'Messiah' argument too,
It's bogus - like all idle name calling - and the suggestion that McCain and Palin are 'real' is totally absurd. His image as a war hero is made of whole cloth and her image as a legislator is created out of smoke and mirrors.
I take it you didn't see how utterly foolish he looked after cancelling his appearance on Letterman's show so he could ride off to Washington to save the nation.
Do you have any idea what his attendance is over the 4 terms he's been in the Senate?
Get Real!
Have you forgotten: 'So Sambo beat the bitch', already?
G West
3 years ago
Obama/Messiah
Now, with a little more time on my hands, I’ll deal with the Borg’s suggestion that Obama is ‘messianic’.
Can we start with the fact that he has a lot of ‘fans’ – some of whom apparently get faint at his speeches?
I’ve heard his speeches, most of them, and I haven’t found myself getting at all queasy in consequence…the fact that a few individuals – in warm halls, under crowded conditions, often under the influence of alcohol or several late nights – have, is pretty normal.
I saw some blue-haired matrons in St. Paul who looked as if they were on life-support during the Palin/McCain convention. Does that mean old John and little Sarah are poison to septuagenarian? Hardly.
This whole business is simply the result of the right wing press endlessly repeating the same lie over and over again.
Then there’s the Oprah factor. Because a black talk show host called him ‘THE ONE’ he’s suddenly a faux Jesus Christ? That’s what the Borg would have us believe my friend. In fact, it’s just politics as usual – and from the party that deified a senile B-movie actor – it’s not too surprising now is it?
Obama is a great speaker and he has a first class mind. I certainly don’t think he’s anyone’s savior – the Stalinists are the ones who are trying to suggest he’s anything more than that – in my view.
Given the sclerotic nature of the system he's hoping to lead he's going to need all that intelligence and rhetorical facility just to keep America's head above water - let alone walk on it.
nightbloom
3 years ago
What on earth are you
What on earth are you referring to by "the Borg"? The party spin doctors? The mainstream media?
G West
3 years ago
The Borg
It's that 20 - 30 % of the Republican faithful - most of them fundamentalist christian awaiting the rapture - who are always on the same message.
Check out Fox News' reaction to McCain's latest silliness if you want an example - or any character in the Palin crowd who has a mike stuck in his or her face.
It's like they're all eating the same soma and spewing out the same message.
I would have thought a battlestar galactica fan like you would have figured it out.
Steyn, Limbaugh, Savage and Beck give them their marching orders and they, the borg, go with it.
vegguy
3 years ago
Rafe and the VP
Wow-
I'm so glad to see that Rafe and I are back on opposite sides. For a while there, I really thought you were coming around or I was losing it.
Yes, Obama is younger than McCain but he is totally in the management of the DNC which is run by people older than McCain.
Biden is a 30 year veteran of feeding at the trough and Obama's sole reason for running is to be the 1st black president.
Same old stuff new faces.
Fortunately we are not faced with having to be executivized by either.
Neither will do much to change the USA
The economics are the results of years of imperialistic greed, but the D's have controlled the house for a long time and are equallly culpable.
Palin is not very likely to become Pres.
Thank Goodness - Neither is Biden. Double thanks.
What a weird logic to suggest that people should support BO because Palin might end up in the White House.
Yes, Sarah Palin is extreme right wing. just slightly to the left of Harper, Lunn and Baird. Let's hope we can get our own house in order.
nightbloom
3 years ago
Looks like "debate camp"
Looks like "debate camp" didn't do Obama any good in the first presidential debate, which concerned itself principally with foreign policy issues. At times Obama seemed lost and flustered, and his closing statement was particularly incoherent and off-target given the preceding 90 minutes of discussion. McCain came across as humble, clear-minded, and statesmanlike, and he was able to lay out a clear foreign policy strategy for the future, whereas Obama could only describe what the Bush administration had failed to do (McCain also criticized the Bush administration, but didn't dwell there). McCain also resonated with sincerity when he spoke of U.S. casualties. I though Obama's flip and slightly panicked retort "Well, I've got a bracelet too!" to be a very revealing moment. McCain was also able to successfully pin Obama's past voting record liabilities on him. I also found that it was McCain who continually brought the debate back to core issues after tangents by Obama - tangents which sounded good if taken in snippets but which lacked any substantial policy meat.
I think it's pretty clear to any objective observer that Round One goes to McCain. We'll see if he is able to sustain it when the focus of debates shifts to domestic policy, since foreign policy is undoubtedly McCain's province.
G West
3 years ago
Your analysis doesn't surprise me
I think Obama did significantly better in the domestic/economic portion of the debate and less well on the foreign policy section.
Which isn't too surprising given he's the youngster and his opponent is as old as dirt.
I know that Fox News will be saying McCain won - I think he barely managed to contain his evil temper, couldn't - or wouldn't - make eye contact and, seemed incredibly antsy or uncomfortable. Maybe his 'Depends' were chafing.
Of course, McCain may have been a little stressed, having missed his nap in a futile attempt to save the economy.
What core issues are you talking about by the way?
The really pathetic thing about that debate was the stark fact that neither man seemed aware that the power of America and its imperial presidency is slipping away - a process which began a long time ago but which has, in some ways, accelerated to breakneck speed under the incompetent management of George Bush.
As for your 'snippets' observation - that's probably accurate. Obama understands the American mind very well - like Stephen Harper, he knows the electorate, on average, is only capable of comprehending 'one' very small concept at a time.
I thought Lehrer's management of the thing was also abysmally bad...
G West
3 years ago
I thought you might be interested in this
Since you really 'like' Ms Palin so much:
“That Alaska has a very narrow maritime border between a foreign country, Russia, and on our other side, the land — boundary that we have with — Canada.”
She went on, but lost her way midsentence: “It’s funny that a comment like that was kind of made to — cari — I don’t know, you know? Reporters ...”
Ms. Couric said, “Mocked?”
“Yeah, mocked,” said Ms. Palin. “I guess that’s the word. Yeah.”
It is not just painful, but frightening to watch someone who could become the vice president of the United States stumbling around like this in an interview.
Ms. Couric asked Ms. Palin to explain how Alaska’s proximity to Russia “enhances your foreign policy credentials.”
“Well, it certainly does,” Ms. Palin replied, “because our, our next-door neighbors are foreign countries, there in the state that I am the executive of. And there—”
Gently interrupting, Ms. Couric asked, “Have you ever been involved in any negotiations, for example, with the Russians?”
“We have trade missions back and forth,” said Ms. Palin. “We do. It’s very important when you consider even national security issues with Russia. As Putin rears his head and comes into the airspace of the United States of America, where do they go? It’s Alaska. It’s just right over the border. It is from Alaska that we send those out to make sure that an eye is being kept on this very powerful nation, Russia, because they are right there. They are right next to our state.”
It was surreal, the kind of performance that would generate a hearty laugh if it were part of a Monty Python sketch. But this is real life, and the stakes couldn’t be higher. As Ms. Palin was fumbling her way through the Couric interview, the largest bank failure in the history of the United States, the collapse of Washington Mutual, was occurring.
The press has an obligation to hammer away at Ms. Palin’s qualifications. If it turns out that she has just had a few bad interviews because she was nervous or whatever, additional scrutiny will serve her well.
If, on the other hand, it becomes clear that her performance, so far, is an accurate reflection of her qualifications, it would behoove John McCain and the Republican Party to put the country first — as Mr. McCain loves to say — and find a replacement for Ms. Palin on the ticket.
From Bob Herbert - in today's Times.
nightbloom
3 years ago
I actually don't adore Palin
I actually don't adore Palin in the manner you suggest. I just thought the ad hominem attacks were sexist and out-of-bounds, and would have been totally unacceptable were it not for the fact that it was liberal executing the attacks on a white female conservative.
I was actually thankful to Lehrer's hands-off management, if only because I'd just finished re-watching the Obama-Clinton debates in S.C. and Ohio, and was appalled how rigged they were against Clinton. The moderates threw every question to Clinton and kept her on the defensive, while Obama was never required to ad lib in his own defence. But the downside of Lehrer's approach was that both candidates were able to get away with long uninterrupted set-piece expositions. We'll see if the next debates adopt a more free-form format. I suspect Obama will do much better on domestic issues...although this round has demonstrated McCain to be very well-briefed and on top of the big issues. I didn't pick up on the negative traits you noticed, although I've noticed them in the past. McCain seemed to have them under control. I didn't see any sign of a temper either (altho we know he has one). I wonder if you're seeing what you wanted to see. The only volatility I sensed was on Obama's part.
G West
3 years ago
WELL BRIEFED??? Bwahahahahah!
You've got to be joking!
Both candidates were incompetent on the Georgia/South Ossetia/Russia issue. Georgia started that little bun-toss remember - and quickly got handed her biscuits by the Russians.
And McCain's verdict on Sakashvili as a 'great' democrat was risible.
They weren't as bad as Palin - but almost.
Adore is your word - it's pretty obvious you 'like' Palin.
Maybe you should pick up a copy of Andrew Bacevich's THE LIMITS OF POWER: THE END OF AMERICAN EXCEPTIONALISM. Somebody certainly should get a copy to each of the debaters.
Frank
3 years ago
The debate
Sorry, but I thought Obama won that debate going away.
From where I sat McCain would say something, then repeat, then go off like Grampa Simpson and then come back and repeat the same point he started off with. The question "Is he coherent?" kept coming up in my head.
Whereas Obama was smooth and didn't look like a cloud of mosquitos were buzzing around his head.
The NY Times called the debate for Obama too.
G West
3 years ago
I agree with you Frank
On form, if not on substance.
But, I thought Obama had dozens of chances to attack McCain and let him slip each time and, truth to tell, their foreign affairs advisors all appear to be neo-cons.
I guess you can't expect much more from Americans.
nightbloom
3 years ago
If victory in this context
If victory in this context is defined as effectively showcasing one's strengths, contradicting the negative portrayals of oneself by one's opposition, and clearly articulating the rationale and implementation of one's future policies, then McCain managed to do so to a notably greater extent than Obama. I think the stunning lacunae and absence of jubilation on the part of the liberal media is mute testimony to McCain's victory, since they're obviously not going to come out and admit it.
Frank
3 years ago
"Liberal media"
I thought the media was corporate-owned, run by men in suits? You make it sound like its run by a co-op of grannies.
As for victory, its defined by who made the best impression on the voters. I think McCain had the "without a clue" vote sewed up before the debate so I really don't see with what segments he could have gained with that performance.
Frank
3 years ago
McCain on the economy
The "liberal media" has lots of great articles today about how McCain sat in meetings with a blank stare and refused to give his opinion on what to do. Thank god he cancelled Letterman to save the economy, we all feel safer now I'm sure.
Frank
3 years ago
McCain was a POW in 'Nam, as he tells us over and over
The Democrat had a yawning lead of 58-37 percent on handling the economy, and a narrower edge of 52-47 percent on the Iraq war, the pollsters said.