Walk of Life

Rafe, great to see you are exposing yourself to an alternative way of life- as interesting, beautiful and ugly as it all is at the same time. You couldn't do a tenth of the things in city planning and business in Vancouver. For better or worse. I have always admired how the Chinese are able to make incredible sacrifices- entire generations if necessary.

Treat yourself

At $650/ night anywhere that's not a treat – that’s a crime in progress; (particularly as it is based on basic economic slavery) bad as Vancouver is, it's not as bad as HK and that's why a lot of the Chinese financial refugees from the 90s have gone back there.

More opportunities!

Bring on the recession - while some people are starving and choking on their own garbage and waste and others think it's a ‘treat’ to spend hundreds of dollars a day on their own selfishness I think it's not too hard to discern what's wrong with this picture.

Things need to change and change fast and comprehensively.

Schlepping over the ocean on Cathay Pacific to have yourself pampered in HK is about as responsible as the "Atlas Solution" to the problems in the United States:

5 Ways To Support The Economy

1) Wear an "I Support the Economy Sticker." If you live in New York, free stickers are available at The Shops at Atlas Park. If you want free stickers mailed to you, for yourself or to give out at your workplace or organization, please send a stamped, self-addressed envelope to "The Atlas Solution," Suite 8306, 71-19 80th Street, Glendale, NY 11385.

2) Spend some money! Every dollar counts! Go ahead, buy your mom or boyfriend a present, or even treat yourself! Feel better knowing that you are demonstrating your confidence in the future of our economy, and that your spending is part of The Atlas Solution.

3) Better yet, invest some money! Most people sadly buy high and sell low out of fear. Now is the perfect time to buy low and hold, which is the best way to invest. A basic guide to investing can be found at MyMoney.Gov.

4) Start your own business! When you work, not only do you earn money, but you help bring value to the economy through whatever goods or services you are helping provide.

5) Tell your local shopping center about The Atlas Solution, and this site! Urge them to join The Atlas Solution: http://www.theatlassolution.com/challenge

My God that the human race has sunk so low.

GWest

Are you living in the past? You're such a gadfly. $650 isn't that much anymore for a great place and remember you'll be supporting lots of hard working families of the employees.

You go and buy waterfront land in Hong Kong, put up an hotel and sharpen your pencil, then tell us what you have to charge to break even.

Even the Clayoquot Wilderness Resort in BC is around $1,800 per night in the summer season. The Four Season's in Paris is $1,350 for bed and breakfast. Zoom fly from YVR to Paris, so you save money there.

Hong Kong is one of the world's great cities and with so many Vancouverites from there a visit certainly gives one a good perspective on our new neighbours and an opportunity into understanding their, and partly now our, culture.

rafe should be ashamed

a true patriot would have flown Air Canada

Parallel Universe

I often wonder what Vancouver would be like if the huge HK rush after Expo 86 didn't occur. Would the BC economy be worse off? Is BC any better off? All this drive for eco-densification is a result of the False Creek buildup, which Li Ka Shing started. Frankly, I was surprised that no other rich BC business groups were able to bid for the Expo lands.If Li Ka shing didn't build then would BC businessmen have done so?

After all, Li Ka Shing set off a rush of money from HK to Vancouver, a new wave of Chinese immigration, wealthier than the previous times in BC history. Without this, would Vancouver look more like Perth does today?

Vancouver has gone from having one Chinatown to becoming one big Chinatown (even Chinese joke about this). And Richmond is basically a Chinese enclave. No one would have imagined this a year ago.

So Rafe, as you enjoy high tea at the Peninsula, just think of how a city no bigger than Richmond can generate so much wealth without any natural resources. Even the previous generations' opium trading can't account for that. Hong Kong represents the best and worst, the extreme limits of capitalist behaviour. If only there was a way to moderate it.

Air Canada

True enough, their flight is convenient since it arrives at 7pm but the Airbus 340 doesn't have the lay-flat beds. Have to wait a bit for the 777.

I disagree

Do you have any idea how long several families could live on $650 in any one of several African countries?

That kind of waste is criminal and immoral. Period.

Hong Kong's success is based on a system of slavery that isn't far off from what made the United States a success in the first place.

The concept of 'great' cities is an abomination when people are starving and doing without.

I thought you watched Edward Burtynsky's film? Or did you see it as just an night out at an art house cinema after a lovely dinner with a small circle of friends?

Enjoy your lay-flat beds - they won't be around that much longer. The colonial nightmare is about to begin.

You're the one living in the past and dining out on the false hope that this craziness can continue. Even the most hidebound of Americans are recognizing they're living on borrowed time and money borrowed from a compromised banking system that's beginning to fail the world over.

lets celebrate slavery

Ba Jin wrote a great short story called "The Heart of a Slave" regarding the Chinese elites attitude and ignorance of the huge scope of slavery in China. Until 1911, it was part of the Qing Code that a master (zhuren) could legally kill his slaves (nuli) for such things as hitting the master.

Of course, the British came in hundreds of years ago and supported the slave masters. But still today Canadian investors directly fund sweatshops in China. This was caught on tape in a 2005 documentary called "China Blue."

Here is the link showing a delegation from Canada touring the LiFeng factory near Hong Kong in this excellent documentary...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9XeNBuAhGE

GWest

That's almost offensive. You are such a wag. Do you think it would help if we boycotted China - and, I guess the USA, altogether? Are you still boycotting Pouilly-Fuissé, cognac and France in general over the Rainbow Warrior?

I knew some silver spooners that just gave it all away because 'The End was Nigh' and they felt so guilty. I suppose they're just hanging out in Goa now. Too bad. Hope they're happy.

When is the END coming, by the way?

I think there are lots of things we could do to help

Not playing silly buggers at $650 a night would be a start.

You might want to check out the state of Chinese due diligence in supplying the drug industry; (heparin) would be a start.

http://www.naturalnews.com/022654.html

money quote:
...the general public is suddenly aware that China not only produces contaminated, deadly dog food products and toothpaste, but also that it makes dangerous pharmaceutical ingredients that are imported into the United States and sold to consumers as "American" drugs.

Ain't globalization wunnerful?

I agree the way that HK takes advantage of the Chinese on the mainland is offensive though..

I think they'll likely call this bust something like the 'long emergency' - it's going to take some time and we'll finish - not at the 'end' as you put it - but at a different kind of society - one whose sails have been trimmed considerably and where no one will be jetting around on international jaunts for nothing more than their own selfish pleasure.

That too is very offensive.

You seem to be stuck in some kind of Victorian time warp where sipping tea and eating cucumber sandwiches at Raffles is a desirable way to spend your time.

Enjoy, it won't be much longer.

A Singapore Sling

Goes well with the warm evenings - no question. I love the birds in garden at breakfast, don't you? Sir Thomas Stamford Raffles certainly transformed that malaria infested swamp, didn't he? Lee Kuan Yew is also a very interesting man.

You love the European social democracies that have 6 - 10 weeks holidays, so what's wrong with Rafe going to Hong Kong for a holiday? He's worked hard too.

Nothing against holidays

Nothing against Rafe.

My objections were clearly addressed at something YOU posted.

Remember?

GWest

So you retract this, I presume:

'cause Rafe did say that, "we treated ourselves to business class on Cathay Pacific".

You should check this out:
http://www.arup.com/eastasia/project.cfm?pageid=7047

http://www.mcdonoughpartners.com/projects/liuzhou/default.asp?projID=jamestown

The key, my friend, as you well know

is the following words:
'to have yourself pampered in HK' which was, again as you well know, a clear reference to what you wrote.

I'll quote it again for you since you have such a selective memory:

Do you remember writing 'those' words - to which my post was a clear response?

The fact that there may one day be a couple of marginally sustainable areas in China is merely, in my opinion, a stronger and more emphatic counterpoint to what's happening in the rest of that vast land - again as you well know but seem afraid or at least reluctant to acknowledge.

Would you care to have me post a few more links to the continuing series from the New York Times about just how bad things actually are in China?

Or do you prefer to just pretend that everything is coming up roses and continue to ignore a situation that is as plain as day to everyone else?

As to John Swire, I think you'll find his original fortune was made shipping cotton from slave-tended fields of the Southern USA before the Civil War...but of course, that's another story. Doubtless Swire's ships were among those trying to run the Union blockades. I suppose you'd rather not deal with that though. It might be a little inconvenient for the memory of the ‘great’ Liverpudlean, eh?

Selective quotes!

I get it. It's OK for Rafe to go, "Schlepping over the ocean on Cathay Pacific" but it's not OK for me to go, "Schlepping over the ocean on Cathay Pacific". OK thanks for the clarification.

By the way. It wasn't slave picked cotton but wool. You're wrong yet again. Swire has its origins in a modest Liverpool import-export company, which first opened its doors for business in the early years of the nineteenth century. The founder of the business, John Swire (1793-1847), was a Yorkshireman, born in the prosperous mill town of Halifax. His ancestors had been landowners in the area for more than 150 years, before his grandfather went into business as a wool merchant in the late 1750s. By the 1790s, however, the woollen industry was under pressure from cheap imports of cotton from the New World, and first John's grandfather, and then his father were declared bankrupt.

By now in his late teens, John Swire set off to seek his fortune in Liverpool - then the thriving centre of British trade. Offered a place in a cousin's general import agency, he worked hard, and after only a few years' apprenticeship, struck out in business under his own name in 1816. His determination and industry saw his little company thrive, based around a core trade in textiles, which ironically centred on the import of New Orleans raw cotton and the export of Lancashire cotton piece goods. By his death in 1847, he was able to pass on a modestly prosperous trading house to his two sons, John Samuel and William Hudson Swire (1830-1884). John Swire returned to Liverpool in advance of the outbreak of the American Civil War in 1861, but its disastrous impact on the cotton trade would soon take effect. Fortunately, the brothers had already sold their shares in Evangeline and Theodore - two cotton-trade sailing ships, which had been their first experiment in ship owning during the 1850s. It was therefore with a relatively clean slate that they turned to the 'new' China trade, as a source of those valuable imports, tea and silk, and as a potential market for their textiles.

Still not dealing with what I wrote.

You took your information right off Swire’s website my friend...only thing you left out was the bit about the time he spent in America...who do you suppose this: ....ironically centred on the import of New Orleans raw cotton and the export of Lancashire cotton piece goods. cotton was picked by?

Well paid day labourers? Wealthy landed gentry? Regally housed piece-work entrepreneurs?

The guys who schlepped the cotton across the ocean were as much a part of that corrupt and hateful system as the guys wielding the whips in the fields my friend. It’s just too bad he didn’t lose it all when the civil war began. A few less heroes like John Swire and England might actually have something to be proud of in its benighted colonial past.

I don't think so R/Man, the Swires, like so many British mercantilists of the period, got their start taking advantage of America's forward thinking 'labour' practices. And, if you think an involvement in the tea, silk and opium trade is a good housekeeping seal of approval…well, let’s not go there.

By the way, you still haven't actually dealt honestly with what I wrote. You already know what I think of people who fly for pleasure on a regular basis – this time I was simply objecting to your choice of domicile. Book yourself in at elder hostel HK and I won’t be quite so critical.

King Cotton

GWest, do you think England should have boycotted the US in the late 18th century; or perhaps invaded? Was it Eli Whitney's cotton gin that created the plethora of baled product?

You obviously haven't studied the economic history of the US

Who do you think 'picked' the cotton R/man - it sure as hell wasn't random crowds of Liverpudlians now was it? And it didn’t jump into those bales either….

The cotton gin certainly did play a role in the industrial revolution in England but we're talking about your HERO John Swire.

The funny thing is when all those fortunes were being made hundreds of thousands of people from the British Isles didn’t see a penny of it. Why do you think so many of them left jolly old if things were so god almighty good?

You brought him up, remember?

Sorry you bothered?

And as for England's historical record in China...well, I don't think that's anything to crow about either, do you?

GWest

West

At its peak in the early-20th-Century, the Lancashire cotton industry employed around 600,000 people...

To set against these problems, after the 'Hungry Forties' and the unemployment of the 'Cotton Famine' in the early 1860s, the Lancashire 'cotton towns' became relatively prosperous places. Falling food prices, and high family incomes where several people were earning, increased families' spending power, producing the world's first working-class consumer society. From the 1870s and 1880s, growing numbers of people could afford to enjoy Blackpool, pay to watch football matches, go to the music-hall, buy sheet music and even pianos, save through the year by shopping at the Co-op, and eat convenience foods as part of a varied diet.

The Cotton Gin certainly played a big role in the US. The flying shuttle in England.

As for England's historical record in China; well, Peking hasn't changed Hong Kong so I guess they like it. Note that Hong Kong has the second highest human longevity in the world. I guess that is something to crow about. Sure it's capitalism and that's why you loathe it but low taxes and a decent social system (note: 20 public hospitals) for those in real need has produced a very high standard of living and that's why everyone flocks there.

Oh it's not just HK r/man

And are you denying the fact that Ireland is part of the British Isles?

The Act of Union of 1803 incorporated the island into British polity, but was useless in easing the difficult situation of the people.The Irish were impoverished and the religious prejudice of their English Protestant Masters in addition to English political subordination, lack of work and shortages of food, the Irish had no alternative by to emigrate. Between 1820 and 1860, the Irish were never less than a third of all immigrants. The British Passenger Acts attempted to deflect the immigration from the British Isles to Canada instead of the U.S., making the fare a cheap 15 shilling compared to the 4 or 5 pound fare to New York. Many Irish soon found it convenient to take the affordable trip to Canada, where they could buy cheap fares to the U.S., or cheaper yet, they could walk across the border. By 1840, the Irish constituted nearly half of all entering immigrants, and New England found it self heavily foreign born. By 1950, the Irish consisted of one fifth of all foreign born in that region.

As for that other nonsense, of course some areas prospered - most others didn't. Your globalization dream didn't work then and it's not working now.

If you thought that HK was the only area of China Britain had its grubby hands on, you really do need to read up on your history.

Btw I don't think the Chinese workers from the mainland who keep HK afloat are all that enamoured with the social system - they're just the equivalent of the coolies in the engine room I guess.

Anyway, I take it you admit that Swire's fortune was originally built, mutatis mutandis, on the slave trade after all - which was the main point of my last post.

All the other questions, in my view, already having been resolved to my satisfaction.

In the end, you were just crowing again about your unsustainable and, in my view, irresponsible travel and bunking habits.

We've been over this before.

You need to join elder hostels and buy a knapsack - good for your body and your soul.

But, But

I have stayed at the Y in Hongers. Is that kosher?

Good for you.

I doesn't exactly fit your image tho' and I'll bet it was long ago when you did that R/man.

Time to get back to basics - not just for you, but for all of us.

Here's the link:

http://www.hostelworld.com/findabed.php/ChosenCity.Hong+Kong/ChosenCountry.Hong+Kong?source=googleadwordstopcities2&gclid=CPmG45CF1JECFQhZiAodAQXHuw

Salmon

Hey Rafe the Libs brought out their corporate budget again with really nothing for the environment especially for wild salmon preservation. Supposedly the government is supposed to do what is the best for the people they represent. I do not feel that is what they are doing, more like the exact opposite. Do we not have a contract with government to do our business in the best interest of the people who have empowered them. I`m wondering if we, a party to a contract with the government, cannot take them to court for breach of that contract. Does not contract law trump all other so called laws which are not actually laws but merely Acts or Statutes which we as party to the contract have agreed to live by. Seems to me the Libs have broken that contract.

Tourist Trap Hong Kong

Hong Kong is a frenetic city. So for the casual tourist, it can be a wondrous place with all the action of "Blade Runner" in 3D. I remember easily picking tourists out by their wide-eyed looks. It's only after you've been there for a few days that you start to settle down, get used to the lay of the land, and begin to understand how things work.

Rafe's itinerary was the classic wham bam tourist jam -- The Peak, Star Ferry, Aberdeen, Repulsive Bay, Stanley, Po Lin, and Tai O with some shopping thrown in. One of the funniest "attractions" on the tourist authority's list is the Mid-Levels Escalator. Some people ride it to the top and are very confused when delivered to the middle of a residential neighbourhood. (Where's the MLE gift shop? What do we do now?)

If you want to see day-to-day Hong Kong, the best way to do it is by walking, especially in the side streets, as realisticman pointed out and Rafe got around to doing in Mongkok. (Shum Shui Po is also an intriguing district, but you don't get 747s flying overhead near rooftop level these days. Be sure to take in a neighbourhood street market.) You don't need to take a walking tour if you pick up the latest edition of the "Hong Kong Guidebook" (street maps). MTR stations are well-marked if you want to venture out on that basis. I also recommend taking the double decker tram from end to end on Hong Kong Island -- same era as the Star Ferry.

You should also consider that the territory is roughly 25% urban and 75% rural & country parks. There is good hiking if you want to escape from the rat race. Some trails offer amazing views -- Hong Kong Trail, Lion's Rock -- and some surprising solitude -- Plover Cove with abondoned hamlets and vistas that will make you forget where you are. One of the most accessible trails is the one circling The Peak. The best time to walk it is an hour before dusk so you can see the skyline in daylight and then, at the end of your perambulation, the city at night.

As for eating, I wouldn't recommend the Jumbo Floating restaurant or any other place in the tourist authority brochures. Find a good local joint off the tourist trap track, so long as it is Chinese. I would also not suggest people eat at a Dai Pai Dong -- there's a lot of hep A in Hong Kong and DPDs are a convenient way of getting it. Other countries have much cleaner street food than Hong Kong.

I could go on a lot more, but I'll leave it with a recommendation to have some room fo a day trip to Macau -- phenomenal food and a much older history as an international trading entrepot than Hong Kong.

HK Standard of Living

That's in shallow financial terms, r/man, regurgitated by people just flitting through the glitter on a less-than-five-day whirlwind. Hong Kong certainly doesn't rank nearly as well in terms of livability. Try actually living there. If you don't regularly take a breather from the rat race, you'll go mad. It's noisy, polluted, and intrusive to the person. People who do "make it" and value quality of life over the shallow riches regularly served up in their adverts, leave Hong Kong.

Phunny Photo

BTW, I have to giggle at the photo at the top. It looks over-Photoshopped, which is unnecessary. The skyline is dramatic enough as it is without having to "enhance" the shot.

RG

You're right. The photo has been manipulated, it's called HDR. Multiple images taken at different camera settings blended with software.

There's also Cheung Chau. The little island about 10km away, without any traffic and a walking trail around it.

I say people flock there since many mainlanders have to find work and money. Lots of ex-pats find tranquility living in Discovery Bay.

The Islands

I finished my stint in HK living in DB, which was tranquil compared to living in the city -- worth the cost of the ferry. A good hike was just up the hill behind the reservoir, which gave you a panoramic view over DB with Kowloon and Hong Kong Island visible in the background. I wouldn't say the view wasy breathtaking because the hike up the hill on a hot, humid day already took your breath away.

I don't think DB is as placid any more, given the development that's taken place since the airport was moved to Chek Lap Kok.

You're right r/man, Cheung Chau is a great place to go... sitting on the back deck of a slow Outlying Isands ferry on a sunny day with a beer. It's busy on the weekend with the city folk either staying for the weekend to get away from it all or going there for its well-known seafood restaurants. The Bun Festival is the most exciting time to visit -- normally in May but not a set date.

Lamma, Lantau, and Cheung Chau are the most popular islands, but you can go to others more "off the beaten path," like Peng Chau and Po Toi. The Nine Pins is about as far as you can get from "civilization," but takes a lot more effort, of course. Even most Hongkies don't bother to take the trouble

The Islands

I finished my stint in HK living in DB, which was tranquil compared to living in the city -- worth the cost of the ferry. A good hike was just up the hill behind the reservoir, which gave you a panoramic view over DB with Kowloon and Hong Kong Island visible in the background. I wouldn't say the view wasy breathtaking because the hike up the hill on a hot, humid day already took your breath away.

I don't think DB is as placid any more, given the development that's taken place since the airport was moved to Chek Lap Kok.

You're right r/man, Cheung Chau is a great place to go... sitting on the back deck of a slow Outlying Isands ferry on a sunny day with a beer. It's busy on the weekend with the city folk either staying for the weekend to get away from it all or going there for its well-known seafood restaurants. The Bun Festival is the most exciting time to visit -- normally in May but not a set date.

Lamma, Lantau, and Cheung Chau are the most popular islands, but you can go to others more "off the beaten path," like Peng Chau and Po Toi. The Nine Pins is about as far as you can get from "civilization," but takes a lot more effort, of course. Even most Hongkies don't bother to take the trouble.