yes ! yes !

Bring back Glen (the deck man and admiral of the fleet!) Clark, hell yes lets get Moe...can I find a new way to insert my foot in my mouth...Sihota!

Their baggage alone should be enough weight to send the NonDP to the bottom of Georgia Straight, thus allowing a green party, or some other left leaning party to get into action.

Could it be that a dead dog NDP is the reason for electing INDEPENDANT MLA's?

Memo to Carol

Pull the thumb out, Carol. Or stand aside.

Memo to Carol

Pull the thumb out, Carol. Or stand aside.

A memo to Carole James

Depart I say. You have sat here to long for what good you have done. Depart I say, in the name of god go!

Apologies to O. Cromwell

Gordo's Liberals certainly

Gordo's Liberals certainly aren't perfect, but as a British Columbian who vouches for them simply to keep the NDP fools out of power, I gotta love this thread.

I thought they were joking

I thought they were joking about those clowns. Neither one had much conviction once you cut through the rhetoric. I'd love to see them back.

Working Man, GWest, and then Adamwest

You might want to go back and read. You'll find that I did not call for their return. I take exception to the nonsense that passes as criticism of Clark. In particular the notion that Clark is somehow worse than Campbell or any of the politicians today. He certainly would make a better opposition leader but his return is not even a remote possibility and most of the anti Clark venom spewed here is just a repeat of the CanWest propaganda. Just compare the coverage of the Basi/Virk trial to the nightly BCTV footage through Clark's kitchen window. It is that blatant manipulation that I will continue to speak against.

As for GWest, I have waited two years for James to show more than the patience to let Campbell make a mistake. Campbell's handlers are not going to let him make mistakes at this stage of the game and even if he does CanWest will smooth it over. James can't just win an election by default because the Liberals lose it. I have no patience to wait till CanWest finally thinks the province can tolerate another four years of NDP for the sole purpose of teaching an arrogant liberal party a lesson so they can then turn on the NDP and reelect the Liberals under a new face. For me that is not a win for James and by the time that happens the province is not worth governing because any government is powerless to change the course. By then we will have sold out completely. James has not shown that she has the fight needed. Oh yes nice is, just nice.

Adamwest has the luxury to gloat because the media supports the liberals as he does. To him everyone is a clown except Campbell and his crew selling off BC to the highest bidder and favoring the well-heeled while making life worse for the average and the poor. His acceptance of the spin that comes from the Liberal party is perhaps admirable if it wasn't so dangerous. Reminds me a lot of those enthusiastic Hitler youths in the 40's.

Skywalker

Actually I don't disagree with much you've written and you weren't the target of this:

I was using the 'usual suspects' to refer to working man, adamwest, poindexter, no left nutter and two or three others of the neo-liberal clique (all of whose names I can't recall at the moment) who find it amusing to continually fail to acknowledge the Campbell government's shortcomings while pretending that our current problems are somehow the lasting impact from the 13 out of 107 years that the NDP have actually held power in this province.

Their fascination especially with blaming Glen Clark at the same time that they decry a leader (James) who is the antithesis of Clark's modus operandi is iconoclastic if not laughable.

I wouldn't put you in that category and I have all kinds of problems (as you no doubt know) with Carole James and how she's running the opposition - I don't believe your questions with her have anything to do with her sex either - any more than I hope my judgment of her record does.

As for the other rogues in the gallery - I really do wonder if occasional faint praise of Carole James as a 'nice' conciliatory person isn't just another way of saying we can't see "her" as a leader because of her sex.

On the penultimate point, about the Robbins' poll, I don't really have any strong feelings about it - I simply posted the link because it illustrates that there are other possibilities available when forming an opinion. And, if you track Robbins' record over an extended period of time his (admittedly artfully worded) questions do seem to produce accurate results.

Finally, I do believe that - especially in the Interior and the North - there is growing suspicion, anger and disenchantment with the Campbell Government.

If the BASI VIRK trial actually goes ahead and reveals what I think it will about the arrogance and self-aggrandizing tendencies of one-man government (because that's exactly what we have) then, as is usually the case - the Campbell reign may end more for its own failures than because the James alternative is so 'attractive'.
By all means, if you’d like to pursue this further, contact me at

'The 2001 election was lost

'The 2001 election was lost with Dosanjh at the helm.' WRONG!!! The election was lost when Glennocchio's fudge-it-budget was exposed in June of 1996, a mere one month after he had won the confidence of the electorate. From that day on the NDP were toast and they knew it. The fast ferries were simply the nail in the coffin.

Wrong again Adamwest

There was a court case concerning this issue. It was started by a liberal and after months and months of media speculation and attention the judge in the case ruled against the liberal who made the allegation. End result the budget was not fudged.

In the attempt to accurately reflect projected revenue and expenditures. The expenditures side was accurate the revenue side was lower than expected. I remember the judge said something about budget projections are a guess at best. It was also the 90's with low commodity prices, the asian economic downturn and the federal government cutting transfer payments.

All Adamwest and the like are doing is perpetuating the myth and they figure is they say it long and loud enough people will believe it.

Carole Taylor does the reverse, underestimate revenue and overestimate expenditures and maintain high service fees while giving to the rich. Adamwest thinks that is not a budget fudged and that she's quite wonderful. Go figure!

All these obsolete posters

All these obsolete posters who always go back to the NDP fast ferries $400 project might think about this, that Alcan supplied inferior aluminum for same, as big Corporations really don't like the idea of a Socialist Light NDP government because they will not give them huge tax breaks, huge loopholes and huge multi million dollar contracts that the Liberals give to their friends for major shady business practices, NDP would also make all these companies accountable for all gross monies not net.
NDP are fighters for the people, not the sleazy corrupt corporations like Gordo does, like TILMA.
I'd like to see the NDP bring back OUR BANK OF CANADA as the lender of money at 1% interest for Education including new future orientated schools, books, low cost student loans or better yet free University, BC's Universal Health Care, Infrastructure, new city parks and organized sports for after school!

B Mulroney the

B Mulroney the father/traitor of NAFTA also took the power from the Bank of Canada and turned it over to the big five banks, why?

You're wrong again

You're wrong again Skywalker. The judge found that there wasn't enough evidence to convict Glennocchio of a crime. He never declared that the budget wasn't fudged because everyone knew that it was. Glennie called it 'wriggle room'. Turned out okay after all because it was one of the main reasons that these guys will be out of power (where they belong) for a very long time to come.

Oh Adamwest you do have an imagination.

Can't let such nonsense stand. You have two different court cases completely mixed up and you resort to the same imaginative interpretations as before. The first case alleged election fraud, named three MLA's and not Clark and was dismissed. I did get a chuckle over your line "He never declared that the budget wasn't fudged because everyone knew that it was." That was good because I can just imagine a court judge basing his/her decision on that kind of argument.

Then there is "The judge found that there wasn't enough evidence". Oh dear. In a Canadian court not having enough evidence of a crime is being innocent of a crime. Courts don't make rulings based on the perceptions and opinions of Liberal hacks.
To bad for you Adamwest that we live in a free and democratic society.

And that my dear fellow is all the time I am going to waste on you.

AdamWest is not a person of

[OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED. AGAIN, PLEASE DO NOT ENGAGE IN PERSONAL SNIPING. -TYEE EDITOR.]
Anything Gordo is in favour of We have to be very, very careful, as this exceptionally poor excuse of a member of the humanrace and his little band of lesser vermin will all have to pay in the end to their maker, as ill gotten money/power/material goods etc equals zip after death!
A great site!
http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/
I'm disgusted with all political parties including my NDP, unless C James comes out swinging in fall Legislature sitting Oct 2 07 on TILMA secrecy, Bill 29, Gateway Project and tearing through Our ALR's (super highway for NAU) fish farms, BC Hydro, the coverup of 713 childrens deaths, housing for homeless and working poor, why the extream poverty in a red hot BC Economy, BC Rail Scandal and court delays, Privatization of Our Health Care, secrecy in 2010 Winter Olympics, Massive Over runs 800 million+ in Convention Center Construction, open house for mining
Corporations. Google Barrick gold mines and enviromental record and human rights

"Carole James talks about

"Carole James talks about going around the province "consulting" with the people, that's humbug" she knows damn well what the majority of people want in BC it's a STRONG opposition to kick this sick bunch of bums out for ever!
Gordo's future boss is
http://www.bilderberg.org/tonyhom.htm#winning
This out of control evil group is behind SPP and all the wars and poverty in OUR WORLD!
http://www.bilderberg.org/ Evil doers and The real SPP authors because they are scared of US and the power WE the People hold when WE stick together!
Their power is false Fear, first terrorists, now pandemics, but WE are not falling for this again as 9/11 was an inside job Google the truth about 9/11 as an excuse for a pre-emtive war on a Sovereign country, and Sadam was a ruthless dictator but what about this site and what the USA has/is doing to the Iraqi's and now beating the bully drums against the Iranian's just a criminaly insane group of little men and woman warmongers oops forgot [YOU CAN'T ACCUSE PEOPLE OF BEING CRIMINALS IF THEY'VE NOT BEEN FOUND GUILTY IN A COURT OF LAW. PLEASE REFRAIN FROM DOING SO. -TYEE EDITOR]http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18097.htm
Grand opening in September 2007!
It's open now and very interesting and Truthful!
http://therealnews.com/web/index.php

GW

[PERSONAL INSULTS HAVE NO PLACE HERE. PLEASE REFRAIN. THANKS. -TYEE EDITOR.] I don’t mind you firing a shot across my bow to lump me in with the neo-liberal clique although my perspective is anything but liberal. But, I don’t recall having made any reference to fast ferries or Glen Clark other than to point out that he was more than bent on selling out all British Columbians for the benefit of his core of union supporters……….you also mis-characterise my view of Gordon Campbell’s performance. There are many things that IMO, he is doing wrong, but when the opposition seems as confused and misguided as the Carole James Gang he still appears to be a better option. When the opposition is only a 2 all you need to be is a 3….

Carole’s problem as I pointed out earlier is that too many BC voters are comfortable enough with the status quo to be interested in a change.

You're not very widely read.

I know what you are nln. The term neo con is an American affectation - the rest of the world calls the aberration Neo-Liberal.

Live and learn; and no, I don't think I've mischaracterized your views about Glen Clark or your satisfaction with the current 'real' sell out of this province either.

You may be comfortable but about 80% of the people who actually have to contend with the mess the Campbell government is making of this place aren't.

As I observed before - credit where credit's due.

It confounds me that so many

It confounds me that so many of you Tyee-types insist that 80% of British Columbians are unhappy with the Liberal Gov't. Their support is solid, even though we're mid-term, and they will smoke the NDP in the next election. The fact is that even though they aren't perfect, (which gov't ever has been?) most people are happy with their performance so far, and Adrian Dix and his crew do not provide a reasonable alternative because they still have not impressed enough to live down the disasters and tragedies that they perpetrated in the '90's.

No it's not

Are you aware of how close the last election actually was?
Apparently not.
As for the so-called disasters and tragedies of the 90s, that's just typical neo-liberal bluff. Anyone with half a brain knows that the NDP record during those years was actually pretty damn good and that cutbacks in Federal transfer payments, not to mention the fall-off of commodity prices in Asia was the 'real' disaster.
[PERSONAL COMMENT REMOVED. -TYEE EDITOR.] You can't even read the Campbell government's bumpf surrounding the current budget and interpret it with any accuracy.
Furthermore, with respect to how people ‘actually’ feel about the current kleptocracy, I’d be surprised if you had any more clues about that than you do about economics and the budget process in this province.

Conrad Black didn’t expect to be convicted either.

You might start by reading something other than CanWest propaganda sheets.

Oh and by the way Adamwest

You need to read what I wrote again. With reference to the 80%, I think you'll find I never said anything about 80% of British Columbians.

Check it out.

Mind you, you never were much for careful exegesis were you

Jumping into ROUND THREE of this discussion...

Lack of MEDIA COVERAGE ... does seem to be the most important element and factor of Carol James .. being off the RADAR SCREEN of most ordinary folk.. and yet there is much to be said of ORDINARY FOLK who once an election comes around actually look for and hear the issues that are being presented to them... and YES ..,

for those that actually take the time to VOTE.. they are thinking ,feeling human beings who make up their own minds.., ( and that is why often the political pundits get it wrong at times..,)

Not being able to read the mood of the electorate..,

MEDIA COVERAGE..,in between elections, does play a role in the subliminal aspects of.. the battle that is ongoing for the hearts and minds of the population.. however , the social networking that is on going and very rich in it's HUMANITY ..., will prevail.., no matter how the powers that be.. attempt to influence them.

Media what a laff, CanWest

Media what a laff, CanWest The Vancouver Province rag. Tuesday July 31, 07 full picture front page Dog Found BS. I guess SPP's, TILMA, BC Rail scandal, Basi Verk scandal, giving our rivers away, Hydro going, going gone, etc giving away to foreign Corporations, huge tax breaks to corporate welfare bums
I'll still stick to my convictions of every person on this planet is responsible for each other no matter what colour, creed, religion, country etc.
These corporations are less than zero, without our shares and our buying their junk! Look-up www.killercoke.org as they are in big dodo financially and extream human rights abuses and this the kind of low lifes who Gordo is pushing through OUR Legislature Buildings called TILMA?
http://canadianactionparty.ca/cgi/page.cgi?aid=670&_id=128&zine=show
http://therealnews.com/web/index.php

Adamwest....

Adamwest, the Tyee is run and largely read by the Faithful. They believe they are Fair and Pure, Beyond Corruption. Anything that Ever Happened to the NDP was a Conspiracy of the ____________ (fill in the blank) to keep them from making Everbody's Life, Especially the Downtrodden (whom most have never Met).

They are Convinced that they do not have to Oppose to Win. Their Way is the Correct Wayt and the Only way.

Except they constantly get creamed in elections. The last Mustel poll shows the Liberals at 51 and the NDP 36. Campbell is at 47% approval and Dear, Pure Carole is at 36.

I find it laughable.

GWest; You call 47-32 a

GWest; You call 47-32 a close election? I guess if you're a desperate NDP'er it is.
Working Man; Village and Dude have just not so eloquently proven your point. Blame anyone and anything besides their archaic, naive, unworkable policies. It must get awful frustrating hitching your wagons to Adrian Dix, David Chudnovsky, Harry Lali and the likes. It's shocking and also hilarious to hear them calling for the return of Glennocchio and Merry Moe.

Adamwest and working man

You might want to check the popular vote numbers and do a little analysis relative to a swing of between 5 and 10 thousand votes in certain key ridings. It was an extremely close election – especially considering that the opposition was led by a total unknown and a woman to boot. But then, analytical thought isn't your strong point - all you've ever done in all the years you've posted here is throw mud...just look back over your own posts and working man's and the other neo-liberals.

That's all any of YOU guys and gals ever do - blame the NDP - a party which has been in power for 13 years out of the last 107 - for everything and suggest that it will be a disaster when they get back into power.

Sounds to me like special pleading from a bunch of people who are mostly motivated by fear and greed.

Sad Really.

47-32

Given the unpleasant and not necessarily correct things the government did between 2001-2005, a Serta Sheep could have performed as well as Carole James did. The seats the NDP got were by default, when the Faithful voted again.

G West, if you go over my posts over the last couple of years, you will find the same message to you and the other Faithful:

"What did we do wrong to lose the last two elections? What can we do to change our policies so that we can attain a majority government in order to do the good work we know we can do?"

The response from you I repeatedly get is:

Note the lack of accountability and responsibility in this kind of reply. The Liberals know how to win elections and they are going to cream you again if you cannot ask yourselves the above question.

I would love to see a good, accountable opposition in this province. Campbell never let Clark rest for one day and ended up creaming his successor. Do we see that kind of opposition now?

Who's zoomin who?

No left nutter: Can't you read?

80% of the people who actually have to contend with the mess the Campbell government is making of this place aren't.

The people who are the beneficiaries of Campbell's mismanagement are obviously not part of the defined group.

You're the one who implied I'd written 'anything' which implied I was referring to ALL British Columbians.

Just like your errors concerning the current BC budget and the Government's promotional statements - you need to learn to READ a lot more carefully.

working man

The pretense that you are NOT a purblind Campbell supporter is simply not sustainable, in my view.

The fact of the matter is that I am unaligned in this debate and there is NO requirement for me to be accountable or responsible for anything.

Whether or not Carole James would have done a better job than the current government - given the difference between the economic conditions, which have pertained since 2001 when compared with those that were extant in the period before the 2001 election, is a matter of opinion. And, it really doesn’t matter all that much either, in my view.

The only party that needs to be held accountable for its behavior is the current one man show of Gordon Campbell. Even his Finance Minister is, from recent reports, beginning to question his megalomania.

It is simply a truism that, with a few exceptions, that incumbents LOSE elections - Opposition parties do not win them.

I have and will continue to point out the obvious discrepancies between what Gordon Campbell claims to have achieved and WHAT HIS POLICIES HAVE ACTUALLY DONE for the vast majority of British Columbians - and for the future of this province.

In my opinion that is:
a) very little which is positive for anyone other than a small group of Campbell’s friends which, sadly, includes a lot of foreign investors like Kinder Morgan and Terasen that care not a bit for the people who live and work here; and
b) Much that is extremely negative for the future health and sustainability of the province.

In conclusion, I don't believe you when you say you want a good opposition in this province because you spend virtually all your time here criticizing the WRONG party.

Like all the other neo-liberals, all you really care about is your own comfort and pocketbook. As long as you can say 'I'm all right Jack' things are fine with you. But, when a general economic downturn affected your business in the late 90s, you're ther first characters to blame the Government.

Sorry, it just won't wash.

I will continue to point out how irresponsible and unaccountable Gordon Campbell's one-man rule is.

Moreover, when another party comes to power, as it will, I'll hold their feet to the fire when they start to screw up.

You might want to try something similar.

G Dubya

[OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED. -TYEE EDITOR.]

As I've said before

You need to read again and TRY to understand. You're the one who implied I was talking about ALL British Columbians, remember?

I can think of a lot of nasty things to say if I wished to stoop to the level you seem to want to occupy but I'll restrain myself in the hope that you're just having another bad day in Neo-Liberal land.

It's not unremarkable that those who use such epithets frequently have little or nothing of value to contribute and I guess you like to be seen in that light.

Sad.

This is what I wrote:

[NO MATTER WHO STARTED IT, PLEASE REFRAIN FROM THE PERSONAL INSULTS. THANKS. -TYEE EDITOR.]

Let me know if you still haven't understood and I'll explain in more detail.

yes, please explain

I guess I must be dumb as a rock too then. After reading your many posta I too am left with the impression that you are implying 80% of BC'rs are unhappy with the government.

What quote?

I too would like to see the quote you’re referring to where I implied that you were talking about all British Columbians….[OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED. -TYEE EDITOR.]

I guess I must be dumb as a rock too then.

[OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED. -TYEE EDITOR.]

BC Voters

Lets face it --- if Jesus came back and ran for the NDP and Hitler came back and ran for the Liberals, there would probably only be a .000001% swing vote. As Rafe says, in many ridings, you could put up a fence-post with hair to run for office and it would be elected.

Guess so happy

This is what I wrote:
You may be comfortable but about 80% of the people who actually have to contend with the mess the Campbell government is making of this place aren't.

Careful now and pay attention while I go through it again: Far from referring to all British Columbians I was alluding to a subset of them; to wit, the people who actually have to contend with the mess being created by a one-man Campbell government. This would include the people who cannot afford decent housing; retired folks who can't afford needed medicines and are increasingly shunted aside in the quest for health care; students over-burdened with debt after attending post-secondary institutions that are over-crowded, too expensive and frequently compromised by corporate interests; women who need and want to enter the work place but who can neither afford (and often can't find) decent childcare; farmers who cannot find butchering and processing facilities for their cattle; vast numbers of people outside of the lower mainland who realize they've been forgotten by their government in its haste to cash in on resources and commodity sales; families with aged parents who can't find accessible and affordable places for their parents to live any longer; rural individuals who used to rely upon good local hospitals and other services which have now disappeared or moved more than a two-hour drive away. People who are sick and tired of an approach to government that places mega-projects like the Olympics and the useless Canada Line on a pedestal while ignoring the real needs of all British Columbians.

My point simply and obviously was that a huge proportion of the people who are experiencing these aspects (among others) of life in the 'greatest place on earth' are not "comfortable".

That was all I said. Plain, simple and easy to understand as long as one knows how a subordinate clause operates

OK

OK

and thanks for correcting my spelling. So please make it simple for a simple minded person like myself - what percentage of BC'rs are unhappy with the government

You tell me happy

There's a poll referenced just above here you can consult:
http://www.robbinssceresearch.com/polls/poll_405.html

Here's the basic findings of the poll:
A random sample of 940 British Columbians between July 13-18, 2007. This poll features a margin of error of 3.55%, 19 times out of 20 @98% competency. Sponsored by Jim Van Rassel (604)328-5398.

Question #1
Vancouver city councillor Tim Stevenson recently plead guilty to a drinking and driving charge he received a year ago. As you may or may not know Premier Gordon Campbell was convicted of drinking and driving some years ago. In your opinion should elected officials charged with drinking and driving be forced to resign from office?
Yes 56 %
No 44 %
Question #2
Which of the following choices BEST reflects your support for a particular provincial political party in British Columbia? (rotated)
BC Liberals 32 %
BC NDP 35 %
BC Green 08 %
I would prefer an entirely new 3rd choice 25 %
Undecided/Can't Answer 21 %
Commentary
This ROBBINS poll conducted during the majority of interviews relating to the Olympic poll (see Canada polls beside this one) reveals that a majority of British Columbians are of the opinion that elected officials convicted of drinking and driving should be forced to resign. The number who answered "N0" are of the opinion that elected officials should i) be given a second chance; ii) Campbell got away with it, OR iii)ought to resign on their own.
The BC Liberal government has not had the foresight to deal with a multitude of problems which they should have reasonably seen coming.
The BC NDP has not convinced British Columbians that they will be any better.
The BC Green Party (like the federal Green Party) have not been able to convince BCers to join them.
The people want a 3rd party choice, (not a fringe party)to choose from.

still befuddled

I guess you don't know either then. This poll doesn't answer my question. If you don't know an answer to a question just say so. I won't hold it against you

something doesn't add up

So if about 70% of BC'rs are unhappy with the government then why would 51% vote for them tomorrow? Still confused. I do agree with you about this however

'Sounds to me like special

'Sounds to me like special pleading from a bunch of people who are mostly motivated by fear and greed.' You got the fearr part right GWest. I'd say at least 80% of BC'ers are afraid of having the NDP back in power for sure. As for all your other numbers; they're crap if you're getting them from RobbinsResearch. He's about as unbiased as Jack Layton. You seem to have an awful lot of time on your hands, and aren't you also the guy that was posting under a couple of aliases some time ago?

well happy, 51% of them wouldn't

- as the poll I quoted suggests. Anyone who relies upon Canwest polls really needs to think seriously about their reading material.

In the 2001 election the Campbell forces got 57.62% of the popular vote while in 2005 the percentages were as follows:

BC Liberal - 45.80%;
BC NDP - 41.52%

There is absolutely NO prospect that the Campbell party would get 51% if an election were held tomorrow.

This is for you ADAMWEST
Funny you should turn so quickly to personal insults; I notice your diction and attitude have a great many similarities with someone who seems to have stopped posting here of late and was always saying exactly the same sort of thing to me as you just did above here. In fact, I was commenting about this uncanny similarity yesterday with a good friend of mine.

If you're really not the girl or boy who used to post here as Elliot then you can catch up on the whole story about the only two labels I've ever used at Tyee here:
http://thetyee.ca/Views/Teacherdiaries/2007/02/27/BoyTrouble/

Moreover, thanks for bringing it up, I'm always happy to provide newcomers with a little background about who I am and why I do what I do. And moreover, why I'm very proud of it too. Nothing I've ever been either embarrassed about or unwilling to share with anyone. I do appreciate you bringing it up.

Cheers.

Pretty weird stuff there

Pretty weird stuff there GWest. Looks to me like you were using at least two different handles to support your own arguments and were caught red-handed so you made up some lame story about doing research for a book or something. Doubt if anyone bought that one. Why didn't the editors ban you from the site anyway? Elliot who?

Not at all

Like I said El, nice to see you back. And not surprising that you haven't changed a bit.

By the way

THe book is coming along nicely. I'm glad you decided to stop in again, I needed some more material for the 'Elliot' chapter.

Thanks.

GWest & Adamwest

As fun as this may be for you two, it's kind of killing the thread. Can you refrain from the sniping and get back to the debating (which i'm quite enjoying)?

Thanks,

Geoff.

Actually Geoff

It's not fun at all.

This stuff and Adamwest's typical personalization of things is not 'debate'; these are childish schoolyard bully tactics no matter whose label appears above them.

Such comments are unnecessary and uncalled for but I'm not prepared to roll over for them if this kind of thing isn't going to be dealt with editorially.

I clicked the 'suggest as offensive' label - as you well know, when I saw the Adamwest comment that got personal, both to me and to Glen Robbins' reputation.

My rebuttal was not written until 3 hours after the Adamwest comment

Theres polls and theres polls

Your Robbins poll doesn't ask who they would vote for tomorrow. The latest Mustel poll does exactly that and 51% say Liberal. That was in May and I would bet that numbers higher now since the logjam has finally broken with the FN treaties signings. I have no idea who the Mustel Group is owned by nor Robbins for that matter. The Mustel poll asks a clear question and gets clear answers while the Robbins effort leaves lots of space for "wriggle room"

dates and timing

As observed above, two weeks is an eternity in politics. Mustel is a market research company and their poll is two months old. Further, look at the difference in sample size - Robbins' sample is almost twice as big.

That being said, I'm not taking a position on competing polls and I’m not interested in a discussion about methodology.

The point is that you expressed confusion about the issue - remember this:

Not to mention this:

Both things YOU wrote. I've tried to give you my opinion and clarify my own statements and conclusion about the relative levels of happiness/unhappiness in this province based upon my own impressions and discussions and correspondence with people from all over the province; I've also quoted a recent poll.

You claimed you were confused.

After having spent a good deal of time trying to alleviate that 'confusion' I think that's not really what you are on about at all and that your purpose is something else entirely. An agenda I'm simply not interested in pursuing with you. If you’re ‘happy’ with the current government – so be it.

I’m not and the vast majority of people (from groups I’ve already identified) I talk to have made me feel that way because of their own personal and family experiences with Gordon Campbell’s ideas about ‘Governance’.

I might suggest you consider a recent Gary Mason column in the Globe and Mail on the subject of Mr Campbell’s remarks to an international conference on the subject if you’re still sanguine about his intentions.

In any case, that's the end of the discussion from this end. I have a feeling Glen Robbins is more than capable of defending his results and his methodology, not to mention his reputation.

works both ways

Ok, you make a broad claim that 70% of everybody in this province are unhappy, and you admit its only your personal opinion based on communication with others. I could just as easily claim the opposite. I don't think you can deny the job market has ever been this good. And please don't trot out this tired "minimum wage slave jobs" rant. Both my kids easily found summer jobs that pay over $10/hr. Not bad for students. And I don't live in the lower mainland. I live in one of your "suffering" areas

Good grief!

Do I have to go over this again? I NEVER SAID THAT 70% OF 'EVERYBODY IN THE PROVINCE ARE (sic) UNHAPPY'. Remember?

How many times is it necessary to take you back through this whole business till you finally understand it? The point is that the weakest members of our society, the ones least able to fend for themselves, the ones who ought to be able to turn to the government in time of stress and need - are far from happy with the state of affairs in this province. The quality of our civilization is determined by the way we treat its weakest members – In British Columbia the VIP treatment only extends to Gordon and the masters of the universe – in my view that’s not what democracy and enlightened government is all about.

As I pointed out yesterday, with a new and untried leader in the last election the Opposition came very close to unseating Gordon Campbell and sending him back to property development - which is the real name of the game he's playing as our Premier anyway.

In the end, that's the only poll that really matters. We'll have to see what happens in 2009.

I'm glad your kids got jobs for the summer - so did mine - it has absolutely nothing to do with what we've been discussing - although I could certainly could make a very convincing case that a provincial economy that's booming ought to be able to do something about the unquestioned anomalies with respect to health care, the status of the elderly, child poverty, human and labour rights (as they have been told by the Supreme Court of Canada they HAVE to do), the status of women and the conditions in schools and at our universities. Without even mentioning what's happening to the environment, our industrial and commercial independence and self-sufficiency - among other things.

I'm pleased you're happy, happy - just wish a lot of other people who don't appear to be as fortunate as you seem to think you are were also happy.

But, as I pointed out earlier, I cannot force you to read and comprehend what I've said and so be it. And I certainly don't want you to agree with me unless you've been convinced that what I've written has merit and makes sense.

Bye

[TITLE REMOVED. -TYEE EDITOR.]

[POTENTIALLY LIBELOUS COMMENT REMOVED. -TYEE EDITOR.] I had a look at a thread where others questioned his reults and he goes nuclear, threatening to sue anybody/everybody under the sun who DARES to infer he just might be a tiny bit slanted and skews his poll questions to get the results he/you desire

errata

There's an extra 'could' in the first sentence of para 5 above. My apologies!

Robbins has shown his

Robbins has shown his colours on this website in the past. He is clearly biased in favour of the left side of the political spectrum and his surveys reflect that. The only poll that matters will be in May of 2009, and at that time, barring some completely unforeseen and shocking event, it will be clear that most BC'ers are happy with this gov't and/or are not ready and willing to give the reins back to the NDP b/c they have not yet proven worthy of that privilege. In fact the only reason they were elected in '91 was b/c the Socreds had imploded under the ridiculous arrogance and incompetence of Bill van der Zalm. Then they stole the '96 election with Glen Clark's pre-election strategy of a promise a day and a fudgit-budget. I would also like to see a viable opposition in this province, but until the NDP climb out of bed with big labour and get more realistic about their policies I don't see it happening.

BIG LABOUR

Jeez elliot..speaking of a reality check..
"Big Labour"..."policies"...like where ya been man?..Glen Clark the neon kid was a long long time ago man..
I`ll see your Glen Clark and raise you an Agnes Kripps.
Shades of Waldo Skillings....the NDP is back in bed with BIG labour agin mama..

Gadzooks man....hello...its 2007..

Nice of you guys

Nice of you guys to want a good effective 'opposition'. You're welcome to it but personally, I'd rather have a good government.

your digging yourself deeper

Do I have to go over this again? I NEVER SAID THAT 70% OF 'EVERYBODY IN THE PROVINCE ARE (sic) UNHAPPY'. Remember?

yes you did

If you total the respondents who have not chosen the Campbell government as their first choice it is clear that 68% of the respondents are NOT Happy with the government.

Sorry happy - read again

Never mentioned 70% anywhere - not once, as a matter of fact, I acknowledged that re-allocating the undecided opinion on a pro-rata basis would actually increase the percentage of repsondents who are 'happy' with the Campbell Government.

You really do need to learn to read and comprehend.

man you can nitpick

Ok then, 68% it is, not 70. I honestly believed we were above such minor differences, but I know better now, and also promise to be more diligent in my spelling.

This whole thing started with you claiming a large majority of BC'rs are unhappy with the government. Since I challenged that and asked for some objective data to back up this claim you've been all over the map with your list of injustices. Put us both out of our misery. WHAT IS THE NUMBER OF BC'rs UNHAPPY WITH THE GONERNMENT?

sorry Mr West

government, I meant government

The End

This did not start with my claiming anything of the sort.

I wrote that I felt that 80% of the 'victims' of the Campbell autocracy were not happy with the situation they found themselves in as a result of government malfeasance, misallocation of scare funds and other resources, and the like. I've gone into it with you in painfully repetitive detail. Moreover, I'm not going to do it any longer.

That's all. The extension of what I wrote to 80% of the BC population is all in your mind - and in the minds of a couple of others too, apparently.

I've been over this with you at least 3 times; as I said above, you have some difficulty reading and understanding. Is this a result of a failure in our education system? On the other hand, are you being purposely obtuse? In the end, it really doesn't matter.

Sometimes the happiest people have the least reason to be so.

Have a nice weekend.

Say fellows, just what the

Say fellows, just what the the heading for this post anyway. he said, no he didn't and on and on. Since a couple of you will never agree on much of anyhting, maybe you could give it a rest before Tyee shuts this post down.

Agreed, The End

Since you won't give me a straight answer to a straight question

PS Mr West

You made a spelling mistake in your last post.

This is what will take Gordo

This is what will take Gordo and his little band of brown nosers out as this just in!
Dirty corporate criminals and the unbelievable criminal actions against US the taxpayers of BC and Canada this is just the start if TILMA ever gets in, read this shite
http://www.nupge.ca/news_2002/news_my02/n06my02a.htm
http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/
Why 4 years to bring this to conclusion, as I believe Gordo and his evil doers would be in prison right now along with C Black!
It's time we took back OUR Province BC and OUR country Canada from these money mongers/war mongers by marching peacefully for OUR FREEDOM as the courts don’t seem to be doing any good for us!
Gordo and TILMA
http://www.vivelecanada.ca/index.php
BC Hydro Sold out by Gordo now
http://www.terasengas.com/

BC Children deaths

BC Children deaths scandal
http://willcocks.blogspot.com/2005_11_13_willcocks_archive.html
http://thetyee.ca/News/2006/02/10/WhistleblowersLes/
BC Health Care scandal
http://thetyee.ca/News/2004/12/03/BCContractorMaximus/
http://www.cbc.ca/bc/news/060623_ballem.html She is a great lady with more nads than all of Gordo's MLA's put together!
http://www.deceivebc.ca/
On and on never ending
Homeless
Mining
2010 Winter Olympic cost over runs secrecy
Convention Center $800 million over budget and still not 1/2 finished, why?
“BC Farm Land Watch” site gone, why?

Is this what they call

Is this what they call Democracy?
Then I'll vote CAP as all the rest are jockeying for a spot on their so called gravy train, what a bunch of l-o-s-e-r-s!
http://canadianactionparty.ca/cgi/page.cgi?zine=show&aid=343&_id=27
http://www.agoracosmopolitan.com/home/Frontpage/2007/03/26/01439.html
We are 30+ million strong in Canada and We can stop these greedy brain dead Neanderthals, starting today don't buy stuff for 1 week and try to buy only local as this would cause huge back logs of all kinds from trucking, container shipping, rail backlogs, big box stores would start to feel it because of unsold product along with no storage, and wouldn't hurt OUR environment either.
We have to give something like this a go very soon as I don't think it's too late yet?

www.infowars.com/articles/mil

http://www.infowars.com/articles/military/us_military_bullying_canadian_citizens.htm
Is this the real reason why OUR people are in Afghanistan and dying, so they won't be in the way of this treasonous act?
So the USofBush can order his Black Water Boys (mercenaries) into OUR great country Canada!
"Herein lies a riddle: How can a people so gifted by God become so seduced by naked power, so greedy for money, so addicted to violence, so slavish before mediocre and treacherous leadership, so paranoid, deluded, lunatic?" : Philip Berrigan - Source: Hell, Healing and Resistance Veterans Speak

This is happening now, and

This is happening now, and has been for 20 odd years simply because of our gutless bought and paid for reporters CanWest media.
Once more let me remind you what fascism is. It need not wear a brown shirt or a green shirt - it may even wear a dress shirt. Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing that people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege.
T.C.Douglas
A bit of hope for the Real Truth
http://therealnews.com/web/index.php

No "best comment" at all here?

I begin to see the purpose of the "best comment" idea; not one post here earned that distinction!

Basically anytime the neo-liberals start commenting here, we end up with the usual bitter name-calling, and the tread becomes a place for personal vendettas.

We seem to have a few regular posters who need to see their words in print at any cost, and as a result pick up any challenge no matter how childish!

Get over it: my father can beat your father any day, so quit arguing!

Comedy with a Gritty Edge

Always lots of great debate to mull over and take the pulse of BC.

...more than a touch of misogyny in the way Carole James is treated by the usual suspects around here...

I was using the 'usual suspects' to refer to working man, adamwest, poindexter, no left nutter and two or three others of the neo-liberal clique (all of whose names I can't recall at the moment)

This is an explanation to a 'believer and a brother' who was mistakenly offended in the blanket swipe at naysayers. Only to be later followed by, "It was an extremely close election – especially considering that the opposition was led by a total unknown and a woman to boot."

How do we interpret this line of consciousness from the same commentator? "A woman to boot". As though the party that ran a woman as leader was shooting itself in the foot? Perhaps BC is that backward. It certainly seems that we also might have a pot and kettle story too.

I have to completely agree with this statement, "As for the so-called disasters and tragedies of the 90s, ... Anyone with half a brain knows that the NDP record during those years was actually pretty damn good". I particularly refer to the half a brain analogy a truly classic backhanded compliment!

Another gem here, "...the NDP fast ferries $400 project might think about this, that Alcan supplied inferior aluminum for same, ..."

Wow, that was the fast ferries problem. It was that nasty capitalist corporation's to blame. Of course!

Then the chicken little theme, "what Gordon Campbell claims to have achieved...In my opinion that is:
a) very little which is positive for anyone other than a small group of Campbell’s friends... So here we have the lowest unemployment ever recorded plus a AAA credit rating for the Province and a generally booming economy.

I say sure, bring back Glen Clark!

Why am I thinking of Monte Python?

RM Wait you say unemployment

RM Wait you say unemployment is down huh yeah but 90% of those jobs are in service sector jobs at $8. an hour dead end jobs never to own a home or have dreams of a fare future.
Serving the rich is not a job, if you did some homework on the working poor who are one pay check away from being homeless you'd realize there is troube brewing for the pitifuly small bunch of elite like C Black for a start!
“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed it is the only thing that has.” Margaret Mead

BC is pretty backward (not)realisticman

And your backhanded compliment for Carole James non-stand on a severely compromised TFN treaty issue is really, in my opinion, just another example of that.

Pretty much like that cast of characters who spend all their time here dumping on the NDP while crying crocodile tears about the fact the province, in their view, does not have an effective 'Opposition'. A group I purposely (obviously an error given your current offering) left you out of.

You might also want to read a little more closely with those rose-coloured glasses of yours because I also wrote this:

For a man or woman like you - who also has used these pages more than once to decry how difficult it is for your friend(s) to find a place they can afford to buy and live in, in this city, I'd say it's not me who is deficient in empathy and blind to the real state of affairs under the Campbell kleptocracy.

You can't have it both ways my friend.

This is a government that is currently thumbing its nose at the Supreme Court of Canada; a couple of its most influential supporters and appointments have already been convicted of fraud and theft from the CIBC; a couple more are being tried for a long list of criminal charges - charges that may well reach right into the Premier's Office and certainly do reach behind the closed doors of the Campbell ‘neo liberal’ Party. I guess the supporters of the Campbell Government have nothing good but the economy to focus on – despite more than 200 political appointments in the Bureau of Public Affairs (Orwell would have loved that label) – the word is getting out about how really rotten things have gotten since 2001.

Since most of Campbell’s questionable success is the result of commodity prices and a healthy export market there really isn’t anything they can take credit for since the health system, the education system, the rural infrastructure, the environment, the forest industry, the fisheries and the ability of BC Hydro to meet the province’s future needs have all been sacrificed to please Gordon Campbell's megalomaniac vision.

They have a lot to ignore and, interestingly enough, Saskatchewan is about to supplant BC in the list of "have" provinces to boot.

As for the remark about misogyny:

As for the remark about misogyny:

I've written before that you have little or no sense of the literary; seem challenged by irony and satire and are incapable of understanding that some people who write here are doing, or at least trying to do, something a trifle more complex than idle sniping.

It was a close election and the fact it was says a great deal about Carole James's opponent - a point which was entirely clear from the context of my posts.

As for whether or not a woman leader is viable in the BC political market, just look at the comments above here and draw your own conclusions. As I also wrote, I’m far more interested in getting a GOOD government in this place than a good opposition. I’ll let you know when we achieve that goal; please don’t hold your breath.

And, in case you missed it

Someone posted this on another thread, especially for you R/Man. Just wouldn't want you to think that I'm the only one who holds the opinions I do.

Enjoy:

Treaties just theft under another name
Times Colonist
Published: Friday, August 03, 2007

It's clear to me now, after hearing the "leaders" and "elders" from Huu-ay-aht and Tsawwassen comment on the ratification votes in their communities, that this issue of treaty-making is far beyond politics or even rationality.

These agreements make no political or financial sense from a First Nations perspective, yet they are being ratified nonetheless.

Why? Because First Nations will simply do whatever it takes, including surrendering their lands and sacred heritage of nationhood, to shed themselves of their Indigenous past in the hopes of becoming acceptable to the white society.

Canadians are once again preying on the original peoples of this land, this time not stealing, raping and brainwashing their children, but lying and manipulating in a different way to the same ends as in previous times: Stealing land and destroying culture.

If Canada were a country with a moral centre, its citizens would not be celebrating the achievements of the B.C. treaty process; they would be shouting out in anger against the immoral actions of their governments and the fact that they are taking advantage of weakened peoples who are in the midst of social and spiritual crises to enrich themselves, yet again.

Taiaiake Alfred,
Director, Indigenous
Governance Programs,
University of Victoria.

Tsawwassen

It's good that we live in a democracy where people can vote in a referendum on issues that govern them. Those that defer to those voting should be applauded, to do otherwise has at the least a tint of paternalism.

When any vote is tallied there will always be those that are unpleased with the result. It is a mark of our civility that we accept losing in a graceful manner. That's what makes our democracy so eminently tolerant.

Have you actually tried to learn and understand

Have you actually tried to learn and understand what was going on relative to this treaty and its background? Do you think that fetching people from far and wide and letting them determine 'who' should be qualified to vote - or what one had to agree to even before being permitted to 'register' to vote entails is democratic?

There is and was nothing democratic about the process and your ideas of paternalism are extremely selective.

God help up when people of nominal good will can be so blind.

Nice of you to be so generous about winners and losers and civility - how quaint - especially when applied to the First Nations people we robbed the land from in the first place.

Give me strength! As Somerset Maugham said: “Tolerance is only another name for indifference.”

errata

That's God help us, sorry!

On Voting

In any jurisdiction you don't get to vote unless you satisfy a residency requirement. It is strange that when government want a vote to go their way they invent non residency voting for First Nations. Now I know all the reasons given for this anomaly but they don't wash. If a person leaves a municipality they don't continue to vote in municipal elections. The same goes for provinces.

The last BC Provincial so

The last BC Provincial so called election was a scam with huge corporate donations to the Fiberals, CanWest building up Gordo and his brainless sheep dogs, while bad mouthing the NDP. Remember the NDP left Gordo a surplus of $1.3,000,000,000. that's billion for some of these paid shills.
Very soon the Preverbal Ship will hit the fan as tyranny will always die, ALWAYS!
Why isn't there any backlash against the Minister responsable for BCLC scandal, the Dishourable John Les?
The Truth
"Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to befoul the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day": Theodore Roosevelt, April 19, 1906.

Very soon the Preverbal Ship will hit the fan

As opposed to the preverbial (sic) fast-ferry...

Sorry Dude but you giveth so much.

Hogtied Carole

Six days now of comment on Mair’s article, the essence of which was that Carole James has failed in her opposition role to criticize the Campbell Gov’t with regards to the Tsawassan treaty, and not a word of dissent here that the settlement involves hundreds of acres of heretofore zealously protected ALR land – just for starters. OTOH, if a corporate entity had been given even a few acres of ALR land – carte blanche, for THEM to do with as they pleased, you’d be able to hear the locals, including Ms James, ki-yi-ing all the way to China.

And so what if Campbell jury-rigged the voting process and bribed the voters? And right out in the open? Carole can’t say a thing about those issues either, lest she implicate the obviously complicit Tsawassan Band membership.

So some questions need asking. Doesn't protecting ALR land offer as many benefits to FNs as to Whitey? Does Democratic process apply only if and when Band leadership finds it convenient? Attempting to answer these would be opening Pandora’s Box, and you can bet yer boots Carole’s got firm orders not to try it.

I’ll bet the ALR-hating Campbell and Co are enjoying great merriment over this slick one they've pulled on an ideologically hamstrung NDP.

Pardon me?

Either you're reading only the 'best comments' or you're not reading what's been written and posted here ME2.

Have another look. Select 'All Comments' and 'Expand all' and see if you don't change your mind.

Well, I stand corrected,

Well, I stand corrected, G.West. I had Forgotten DPL's excellent comments in the opening posts, but now recall being amazed that in this home for Lefties, no one else carried on with his themes, and so I carelessly put his words out-of-mind.

And so too with your very brief comments recently re the voting irregularities, which unfortunately did not lead to further discussion either. My apologies.

However, I still stand by my first comments, the gist of which was that since the ALR and Democratic procedures are hot-button issues for Lefties, they should have recieved far more attention than they did on this thread.

My further point was/is that comment here and by Carole James is severely inhibited by political correctness.

This same syndrome has fractionated the environmntal community to the point where effective forest critique in BC has disappeared.

It is not that we should be opposing FNs. Rather, when FNs screw up, their feet should be held to the fire just like everyone else. This is not possible today, since both the criticism and the criticiser will automatically be called "racist".

ME2

I agree completely. There are 'some' other comments on this thread as well:
http://thetyee.ca/Bigstory/2007/07/26/Treaty/

Unfortunately, the new BEST COMMENTS default position also means the casual poster here is not necessarily aware of all the remarks on any particular thread since each time a user signs on the normal view reverts to that default.

There have been a number of individuals at Tyee who've consistently opposed the current TFN treaty and the extinguishment of ALR lands that goes along with it. You are correct that the NDP under Carole James has 'blown' this issue more or less completely.

The sad part is that, if everything turns out as it seems likely to, not only will these lands be lost from their best and highest use forever, the actual conditions and future well-being of the TFN people themselves will not be enhanced.

In all probability the fee simple estrangement of the lands from the people will proceed apace over the next 10 years as the crushing burden of debt for the negotiating process comes down cynically upon the people whom the ‘settlement’ was meant to benefit as well.

The beneficiaries of this ‘deal’, apart from a very small number of TFN people who have been part of Campbell’s little gambit for reasons they will likely live to regret, have nothing to do with either the ‘ideal’ of TFN governance and self-determination.

They are, as is everything under the Campbell kleptocracy, representatives of ideals that are inimical to the best interests of the majority of British Columbians both aboriginal and otherwise, as time will, I fear, soon illustrate.

Further

ME2 - There's also some excellent materials on Bill Tieleman's site.

One good item is here:

http://billtieleman.blogspot.com/2007/07/bc-ndp-leader-carole-james-supports.html

But there are others, including comments from First Nations' spokespersons as well.

Congratulations! Somebody

Congratulations!
Somebody finally had the nerve to speak up against the give away in name of political correctness!

It is good to see this tread veer back to its roots, and with luck the name-calling is over?

Well done Rafe

Like you I think that it's time to consider voting Green.

Before you make that decision

I'd suggest you better check out their policies...have a look here, for example:

http://billtieleman.blogspot.com/2007/08/2nd-green-party-leadership-candidate.html

One other tiny point, for the record:

If the NDP doesn't manage to get its act together and work cooperatively toward some shared and clearly-defined goals then a group of incompetents who think government is about spin and spending bags of cash on their friends will remain in power.

You can check the details of this self-destructive behavior here:
http://billtieleman.blogspot.com/2007/08/is-tieleman-extremist-columnist-doug.html