We live in a not so benign dictatorish

It is a mistake to say we live in a democracy and a vote every couple of years doesn't mean a thing. the old Soviet empire had votes too.

We desperately need to return power to the people not to an elite few in Victoria. I'm afraid if things don't change, Campbell and his Quislings will destroy this province.

Note to the NDP - Dump James, get rid of her, get rid of her fast!

thanks Rafe, and leadership

Thank you, once again, Rafe, for shedding light on a subject that has been cloudy in my mind.

Re: NDP ability to launch a well-deserved assault: Hasn't Carole James been battling cancer? Is that over yet? I know that it can take considerable energy to battle such things, and I further know that after fighting off disease and dealing with the therapy, people are often changed. Many of the people I have known that have gone through such an ordeal have come out the other side less antagonistic/confrontational, and more ready to look for an excuse to take a walk in the woods or a visit to the waterfront. I'm not saying this is a bad thing for those people; however, I don't think it would be good for the province if the number one gladiator charged with doing battle against the neoconservative Liberals is spending lots of her time tending her garden instead of marching and being heard.

What?

The NDP should have won the last election? uh-huh. Don't let the fact that every pundit in the province didn't give the NDP a hope in hell of bouncing back from 2 seats to forming a gov't stop you from throwing out this tired old canard yet again.

But isn't 2009 the year that

But isn't 2009 the year that the infamous TILMA (no more BC or regional governments) comes into full being and corporations strip BC of all life forms, aqua culture and all BC Forrests?
TILMA is already at work in Vancouver via Vancouver transit boards elimination or something to that effect.

Every time I see Gordo's

[EDITED FOR POSSIBLE LIBELOUS CONTENT -TYEE EDITOR]

Any one of these NDP would

Any one of these NDP would fair much better, Julian, Dix, Chudnovsky, Robertson etc as C James has missed some juicy chances.
Talk about no debate, The Dishonorable K Falcon is at it again, he thinks he's above the law. Well in BC maybe?
No media on this, why doesn’t this surprise me?
http://www.bcndpcaucus.ca/en/falcon_moving_ahead_with_reforms_to_translink_without_mandate

Falcon no Turkey yes

He doesn't think. He does as he's told. Tis the hallmark of the lackey and the lickspittle. Ya gotta cozy up to whomever holds your leash and 'heel' as ordered if you want some table scraps when the banquet is done.

Frank Lee

I'll bite, why? I didn't hate it. Most people I know didn't hate it. I assume you did?

The NDP wasn't perfect but it was darn sight better than what we got afterwards.

All I see are sore losers

Funny how the NDP sympathizers are complaining about a system they used to occupy not so long ago. Evidently, none of the NDP members have learned anything about the mess Glen Clark and his cabal of spin masters caused in BC in the awful 90s. And such short memories of why they NDP was decimated in the election is typical for a crowd that simply won't realize that the BC public wants less govt interference in their lives, less talk about welfare and more policies to encourage prosperity.

The 90s were terrible years for most BC people, unless you were a union member- or should I say a union member that was a friend of Glen Clark. The problem with the NDP is there reflexive tendency to favour troublemakers, union heads and labour leaders as political leaders. And like Glen Clark, once they get into power they lack the ability to lead; rather, they continue their rough house poliicies in office. Glen Clark should have been run out of BC just like he forced so many BC'ers to leave the province due to economic mismanagement. Instead, it took a capitalist in the form of Jimmy Pattison to give him a job. Where were Glen's union buddies when he needed them?

NDP'ers can't get themselves to face the fact that most BC'ers despise their policies and want prosperity, not more wasteful govt welfare schemes serving special interests and appalling fast ferries. Belligerent, anti-business policies are bad for BC and bad for the NDP's chances in the next election.

Time for the NDP to get their own platform and people in order before griping about the very system they want to run.

Frank Lee

Unlike you I happen to recall Clark had absolutely nothing to do with "Casino-gate" as you call it. Neither did Harcourt for that matter.

Still, compared to Basi-Virk, "casino-gate" was nothing. Basi-Virk on the other hand is a massive trial involving both the Liberal party and the Liberal government as well as their friends. [EDITED FOR POSSIBLE LIBEL. -TYEE EDITOR]. And yet you laughingly ignore all that and try to connect Clark and Dix to something called "Casino-gate" because you need to smear Dix.

As for the Fast Ferries, not one of Clark's better days but compared to what the Libs have been doing, it was preferable. I'd rather spend money in BC than buy foreign made ferries or [MATTERS BEFORE THE COURT ARE ALLEGATIONS -TYEE EDITOR] BC Rail. As for fiascoes you're ignoring the Liberal circuses called the convention centre, Sea to Sky, the Olympics, RAV, and pretty much everything else this gov't has done.

They can't even run healthcare and education as well as the NDP in spite of the massive amounts of federal aid money they've been given to do so. The Feds give them billions yet the Liberals can't even keep class sizes at the same level. Health care wait times and outcomes both worsen etc.

The only people that cheer such incompetence are people like Bobby Peru who has been on this forum for years cheering the most extreme right-wing positions. He can't stand the fact that BC under the NDP in the 90's outperformed the Socreds in the 80's. The NDP would be outperforming the Libs too if it wasn't for the 6 billion plus dollars from the Feds, low interest rates and high commodity prices. The economic conditions were changing even under the last 2 years of the NDP where they delivered consecutive balanced budgets. The Liberals haven't helped this province in any way, shape or form, they've simply ridden the conditions that were already happening under the NDP and what they got from the Feds.

And what really drives Bobby crazy is that in the last election, in spite of the economic conditions at the time, the NDP popular vote almost matched that of Campbell's party and their seat count bounced back from 2 seats to normal in just one election. Guess the people of BC remember the 90's better than he does.

I fail to see the connection

Between STV and the fact that Carole isn't much of a political animal.

The second I agree with... but that is only my personal opinion.

The first? Well, We had it once... that was how W.A.C. Bennett got elected in the first place; all the liberal and CCF supporters were darned if they were going to give their second preference to the other... so they plumped for the then unknown Socreds. With results we already know.

Australia also has it... as well as compulsory voting... and again, the repeated re-election of one of Bush's poodles (John Howard) shows you just what can happen. And Jo Bielke Peterson in Queensland was even worse (if that is possible) that Waccy Bennett.

Rafe, I'm sorry, but there aren't any quick fixes. Even though you hope that everyone would put their second choice for the green party. Besides, what might work for you this time will work against you the next.

The only way to retain a functioning parliamentary democracy is through an educated populace, something we aren't going to have so long as large multinational (read American) corporations dedicated to profit at any cost are allowed to control the public (in case any of the wing-nuts here have forgotten) airwaves and the media.

R. Smiley

final connection for ripponfalls

and thru controlled schooling that has produced...?

I think it's more than 185 kootcoot

There have been a couple more OICs passed since last fall - several more 'media monitors' were added to the OIC 656 stable - including that young journalism grad who was sending twice daily reports from Courtroom 54. You know the one? The fella Stonewally said he'd never met....

What Now?

There is no way I'd ever support the Liberals - ever. I voted NDP once and regreted it ever since. Because there is no other choice, I'm reduced to vote Green. And I think it's a wasted vote.

Federally, the Conservatives are washed up. We can see that now - they won't even be able to get a minority together and they've proven to us that once they get in to power, they have no choice but to kowtow to Quebec and Ontario. Where does that leave us?
We simply have face the music and call a spade...
We have to separate. Lucien Bouchard had seen this when he said: Canada just does not work! I used to really despise the Quebec separatists but now I see that they are not that far off base. Soveringhty association? If possible, might work. Failing that we need outright separation. The first credible separatist party that forms in BC is going to see a lare influx of members and I'll be leading the parade.

Separation?

Separatist parties in the west have come and gone. Separation is an idea that has come and gone. The people came, they saw, they were amused and they ignored it.

Citizen's Assembly

"Having said that, I did, and would again, support the STV simply because it was the outcome of a randomly selected citizen process that put in a lot of effort, and were conscientious"

The CA was run by an individual from that great charitable organization, The Fraser Institute. 'Nough said.

Fraser Institute

Wow, the Citizen's assembly was led by a Fraser Dinosaur? I didn't realize that, now I know it was led by impeccable and fact free when necessary, logic.

I would support rounding up the members of the Fraser Institute, American Enterprise Institute, and the rest of the right-wing nut sinecure-welfare think(?) tanks. I'm still thinking of what to do with them once they are rounded up, but maybe Gitmo or a secret prison in Eastern Europe would be available once they were rounded up.

If Terry Glavin can play guitar, he could lead the evening camp fire sing-alongs where ever we locate retired (from too much thinking) right wing nut thinking experts.

Frank's Memory Loss

"Unlike you I happen to recall Clark had absolutely nothing to do with "Casino-gate" as you call it. Neither did Harcourt for that matter." --"FRANK"

Oh Frank. I wasn't referring to "Bingo-gate", but the Burnaby casino license afffair. Dix's role in that was very interesting ( e.g. were Glen and he dropping hints for Clark to Mike Farnsworth about the need to approve the license?) but one aspect is absolutely factual and crystal clear: Dix was in the habit of putting nothing in writing, in order to avoid FOI. But then he made one singular, spectacular exception: a deliberately deceptive and intentionally backdated memo that was clearly calculated to make us believe that Glen Clark had absented himself entirely from the whole matter.

THE BACKDATED MEMO, FRANK. DO YOU REMEMBER THE F@#$%!! BACKDATED MEMO??!!

ov

Pretty much agree with you on the openness thing. No reason we can't have similar rules to what they have in Sweden. Everything is open to scrutiny by default -publish it on the web as a matter of fact but set up a private professional to determine if (on application) certain information should be either protected or redacted minimally for privacy or other reasons. But mainly, we have to find effective ways to get more citizens involved directly in some decision making. If STV does reach the 60% level it should be very clear that any legislation based on the referendum is subject to change and improvement on some practical basis.
All public tenders should be public anyway, I can see no valid reason for costs paid out of the public purse shouldn't be subject to public scrutiny anyway. If various firms don't like it...they don't have to bid.
I still prefer a straight proportional rep system...but I think there Can be problems with party lists and they need to be addressed. On the other hand, such systems work perfectly well in much of western Europe so I guess they wouldn't be out of the question here.
Frank Lee - I remember the kerfuffle about the Dix memo - I also remember the whole tricked up Liberal sponsored raid and the media involved.
I just wish the media were half as dogged in their pursuit of the story behind the Legislature Raids as they were in their haste to condemn Glen Clark.
I think it's pretty clear from the results of the court case that there was nothing there. BTW, I also understand certain members of the Police in that case were interested in a competing casino license as well. Given what’s coming out of Ottawa about the horsemen, I don’t have much trouble thinking there’s something to THAT as well.
There is nothing in the Clark record that comes even close to what the Campbell government has done and is doing in terms of misusing the public trust and the taxpayers dollars. From the sale of BC Rail to the emasculation of municipal authority and the hobbling of BC Hydro - without ever mentioning the Convention centre and the gimmees to the Roadbuilders Association, the failure to accept the government's responsibility for BC Lotteries and BC Ferries and the cock-up of Bill 29 and the mess that medical services are in.
Don't get me started.

Overheard at the Fraser Institute:

"look there, there's a fact on the wall"
Three luminaries of the Institute, all at once, yell " eeeaaagh, Kill it, Kill it, hurry!"

A younger buff member (of the institute) picks up a "study" containing 22 pounds of imaginary "ginned" up statistics and swats the offending fact, flattening it into an unreconizable stain.

The older luminaries breath a sigh of relief and resume their normal business in their normal "fact free" environment.

Hospitals try to be germ free, high technology manufacturers strive for dust free, the Fraser Institute thrives in a fact free laboratory, or one stocked with only facts created on site.

STV FACTS

Campbell invented the 40% supreminority to defeat electoral reform (including stv).
STV was invented many years ago, it has NOTHING to do with the fraser institute.
STV has NEVER been used in elections in BC.
More left wing voters (ndp and green) voted yes than right wing voters.
I do not support the invention of a conspiracy theory to stop electoral reform.
Try wikipedia for information on stv, not some bored paranoid person posting here.

Ferries?

The fast ferry issue pales to the fact that none of the new ferries have been built in BC. I`m all for prosperity but lets at least have some here rather than Germany. And then there`s the convention center overrun- one heck of a lot more cash than estimated. And then there`s the fact that the people can`t seem to find out how much the Olympic bigwigs will be making and on and on and on..........
Oh yeah, the BC rail Fiasco.

Gordon Gibson of the Fraser Institute

Gordon Gibson was the Eminence Gris behind the exercise that chose STV as the only option. He also chose the person who set up the process – as you must know.

In my opinion it was a flawed process from the start and the unseemly enthusiasm with which its supporters have continued to promote it since it failed to reach the 60% barrier in 2005 tends to reinforce the view that you people are not interested in electoral reform as such - but simply in your 'version' of electoral reform.

Every single time an article here at Tyee mentions something remotely connected to elections one or more of these disciples immediately tries to turn comments into another opportunity to promote this little STV project.

They usually do it, as you have, Brian White, by resorting to ad hominem insults. Which action actually tends to backfire in nearly every instance - unsurprisingly.

I find anyone who resorts to calling people names rather than actually debating the shortcomings of both the system they proselytize for and the way it was chosen and is currently being promoted tends to destroy almost immediately the case they cannot make for their pet project.

Let’s have a real constitutional assembly and actually try to fix the problems of public democratic governance in the 21st century and stop pretending that STV is some kind of a panacea.

All that being said, as I think I pointed out above, I voted for the damn thing in 2005; not because I thought it was good – only that it was less bad than FPP and because I had no other choice.

I don’t care to subrogate to YOU, or to anyone else, my democratic right and obligation to make the necessary decisions about something as important as the way we elect our PUBLIC Servants. Especially at a time in our history when the current government appears to have totally forgotten exactly who is the master and who the servant in this relationship.

And I am sufficiently frustrated with the way our elected representatives behave now without giving constituency-localized and ginger-group special interest groups like the ‘Christian Heritage Party’ the ability to find themselves in Victoria at $100G/annum (plus pension) for the next 4 years because they’ve gamed the system in, let’s say, the Cloverdale area. Among other things.

Christian Heritage

We've argued this ad infinitum already G, but I have to stress that if the Christians have enough people in Cloverdale to elect an MLA they should be able to do so rather than voting Liberal to keep out the NDP.

And the problem with electoral reform is a lot of us want different things. I, and many other STV fans, want to reduce the power of parties.

That's what makes MMP a non-starter for many of us, its actually a step in the wrong direction when you take into account what we consider to be important.

I think we should just recognize that we all don't want electoral reform for the same reasons.

Frank Lee

A memo and Glen Clark getting some hands-on help with a deck? If that little demonstration of the cozy relationship between media, police and the Liberal party is what still riles you about the NDP, in spite of it going nowhere once before a judge, you must get pretty upset at the sight of your premier in a Hawaiian drunk tank or all the paper we've seen surrounding Basi-Virk. But then why get upset about real corruption when CKNW and Can-West keep assuring us its all good and that the real bad stuff is when help is offered on a deck.

But....Frank

I don't think I've ever said that MMP doesn't need tweaking. There may well be ways to address the problems you have with too much party influence (concerning the LIST) and I certainly have no problem with fringe parties getting into the Leg if they can muster some threshold of votes relative to the whole province.

However, you don't seem to want to recognize the problem of emphasizing urban ridings over rural ones that's inherent in STV either. Coming from a rural background I've seen what happens when the cities and 'their' representatives just take over and make the decisions for rural areas. The same thing is happening now in BC and STV (with multiple member ridings in urban districts) will accelerate and exacerbate it.

I'm just now listening to a CBC report on what's happening to farmland in Saskatchewan...and it ain't purty!

Bad as the party system has been (and I don't disagree with you on that point) I think that having a handful of local-issue dominated individuals making their selfish and self-interested case in the Legislature will make our governance worse, not better. There is little or no evidence that our elected representatives “grow” into their positions and become better at their job as time goes on. In fact, quite the contrary.

I think democratic governance needs a real shakeup and the first requirement is to find ways to get more citizens involved and interested in the process. I don't think that STV is the way. It may work, as I've said before, in a small and rather homogeneous country like Ireland. In my view it will be a total disaster in a place like BC where - according to the latest stats (in Greater Vancouver) 59% of our citizens were not born in this country.

In addition, as I've said before, your objections to MMP tend to ignore how well the many jurisdictions where it currently IS used are managed. IN fact, how much better they have been managed in the 30 years this province and country have been rushing downhill to get to the situation we're in now. Moreover, you certainly can’t question that the seemingly ‘professional’ supporters of STV – such as my interlocutor here in this thread and his fellows – seem to have an undue interest in slamming anyone who disagrees with them.

That’s what I like about our discussions. They remain friendly and I think we learn from each other. The STV brotherhood – not so much! You do a far better job of defending STV than any of them – and you do it without the brickbats.

The Right is Right by definition!

Frank (not Lee), your statement above makes perfect sense, but that doesn't mean your namesake will get it. These right at all cost types ignore reality and facts. They (facts and reality) have a deleterious effect on their economic and political theories, like trickle down economics (more accurately referred to in my house as "piss on the little people.")

There could be video tape of Cabinet meetings with the Soup Nazi and his Crackers cackling about who gets which directorships after there are no more public assets to pillage and bragging about how successful they have been at obstructing the investigation into the Legislature Raids and it would somehow only be politics as usual to our Mr. Lee and IAMClueless, Mabel, JIm and the rest of their ilk. I, for one would like to see less talk about the "criminalization of politics" and more attention paid to the politicization of crime.

But right wing nut trolls like our little stable would be happy to explain to you how everything wrong in BC can REALLY and ACTUALLY be attributed to Dave Barrett's three years in power back in the early seventies. Glen merely put icing on the cake that Davy Barrett baked.

Now if we could only have representatives that actually represented the interests of their constituents instead of being fence posts with hair that impose the dere leder's will on the people, I wouldn't care if they were elected by STV, MMP, FPP or actually bought their election. At least I would feel like I had a voice in Victoria, the only voices I can hear now are Gordo, StoneWally, The Sneer that walks like a man, Colon Hansen, Ding-Dong DeJong and Falcon the Transportation King and in general we don't even share any interests.

But the BC Economy is flying...

Hard to dispute the economic growth in BC these days and it's unlikely voters will take a chance with the NDP anytime soon. Clark left a big stink on the NDP. And it doesn't seem like the NDP followers have learned a thing. You need policies that appeal to the middle class rather than railing against the companies that provide their prosperity.

All this white noise about Campbell corruption is not enough to convince voters to switch to the NDP brand of corruption. Look, everyone knows there's a degree of corruption in govt and everyone is willing to put up with it as long as the economy is buoyant. And that's what you NDP'ers can't seem to grasp- how to run a successful economy. Voters aren't willing to destroy the economy to achieve this false sense of social justice and nirvana that you preach.

Clark was a militant thug and buffoon and deserved all he got. And the NDP demonstrated it's own brand of arrogance before the fall. Really, the Liberals and NDP are both sides of the coin of hypocrisy- it's just that the Liberals are smart enough to run an economy that's successful enough to pay for everything.

Waste of Time

The title has a double meaning: Reading Mr. Peru is a waste of time and responding is even more so, but hey, I may be a masochist.

Priceless gems from Bobby:

The wheels don't turn unless they are greased, I guess.

These Lieberals are so good, and so influential that they can affect commodity prices, oh you mean high commodity prices have nothing to do with the current "prosperity?"

It takes a lot of skill in managing an economy if in one slick move you can give all your buddies a tax cut (your rich buddies) AND simultaneously qualify for Welfare from the Feds - for the first time since when? Ever?

So Gordo and the ferret managed to solve the Asian Economic Meltdown, get minerals and other commodities up in price and swallow their pride long enough to panhandle Ottawa. I see what you mean Bobby!

By the way Bobby, most accountants, business people and economists don't really think selling your assets to raise cash NOW is a viable long term strategy, even though the Lieberals apparently think it RAWKS.

So Bobby I hope you are in the lower mainland where all this spectacular prosperity is happening (well except for the DTES, and a few unlucky folks at Riverbend, and anyone having a premature baby or dealing with a disability, or trying to find LOW rent accomodation close enough to commute to their LOW wage job).

By and large everything is coming up roses, without the thorns even and it is all the Soup Nazi's fault. My Hero!!!

Skill in managing the economy?

That would be evidenced how?

When the final bills are in for the expansion to the Vancouver Convention Centre - a project which is already more than 100% over budget.

When the sacrifice of BC Hydro's generating capacity to private interests will produce electricity rates that are several times higher than they are now.

When the bills come in for the Olympics.

When we actually find out what the cost per km for the Canada Line really is.

I could go on and on. But what's the point, as kootcoot says.

Still, please Bobby, could we have a little evidence of this economic management skill?

Right now RBC says that an average wage earning family needs to put 70% of its pretax (that's pretax Bob) income into housing if it hopes to buy modest accomodation in the lower mainland.

You must sell real estate!

Beware the false dichotomy of a vote

Apologies to those that have seen this before.

rights lock horns and what is left chatters
saul saw voltaire's bastards as they railed
the bulwark dismiss as extreme what matters
by somnolence of herd the system has failed
ponder options offered and those that ain't
and how important is the color of the paint
on a cattle prod upon which you are impaled

The vote alone means little when the voters have no say in what the agenda is. So I'll side with GWest on the critical importance of getting more participation in the process, and I think any process needs to be iterative and based on principles of learning organizations. Plus the transparency issue I mentioned earlier.

Ahhh, and who can forget the pleasures of Pinochet's Peru. Flying high? About as aggravating as that crack head giggling at you for being such a fool because you aren't as happy as he is, and you know he just borrowed ten grand from a loan shark.

Bobby Peru

You say the Libs can run an economy better than the NDP? Let's recall the Socreds and the Liberals are the same people. So apparently the Lib/Socreds only learned to run an economy after 2001. Because in the 80's they ran the economy into recession.

Interesting also that they're now so good at it they were able to get the economy turned around 2 years before they were elected. And they're so good at it they're able to make provinces they aren't the gov't of like Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba (the last 2 run by the NDP) perform just as well. Campbell must be a magician. Or perhaps its the Feds and the Bank of Canada and external markets that deserve the kudos for BC's economic performance?

Perhaps with all this skill Campbell doesn't need the 6 billion+ in extra dollars he received from the feds versus what the NDP received. Why are his surpluses less than the difference in federal transfers?

And again, why are his outcomes for things that he's actually in charge of, like health and education, worse than the NDP's even though he got 6 billion + more dollars from the Feds to run those operations?

Fact is, Campbell just gets good press from a compliant media full of Socred/ Liberals. And his sheep-like supporters would vote for anyone that wasn't NDP.

Elitist

What Clark got was a good job with a confirmed capitalist!

Maybe Jimmy can see qualities that you do not grasp?

Once again if the media had been fair and neutral, there would not have been all that BS about neigbours helping.

On the fast ferry thing: contractors had a regular conspracy going to sabotage anything to do with them, as well as overcharging.

That is the power of the elite in this province!

We have heard of elites ruining countries before,and of citizens who eventually revolted! It will happen here and not soon enough for my preference.

NDP mentality

It's refreshing to read constructive advice by Mair and backed up by Lynn outside the narrow minded NDP box, advice which would unfortunately be seen as irrelevant by the hardline NDP'ers like Tieleman. We need a party that can appeal to the 60% of the voters who want neither the NDP or Campbell's party. We need another party to fill this void or a new leader to take the NDP there, before our assets and the public service are totally turned over to the private sector. The NDP in Manitoba is in for a third consecutive term because they are more a fiscally and socially responsible Liberal party. Understand that Campbell's party would rejoice at having this NDP party in power for many more years. Oh,and and it amazes me that the NDP mindset will not attack the Media in the same way the Neocons would if they were treated the same way, especially when a balanced media is so crucial to ensuring a strong democracy.

GWest

There is of course a problem when we have little in the way of actual evidence to go on. I would like to see STV adopted in BC for the 2013, 2017 and 2021 elections. I would also like Ontario to go MMP. By 2022 we would have a pretty good idea of what works and what doesn't. If STV had 3 kicks at the can and was then tossed in favour of MMP I wouldn't have a problem with it, I would just like to see it get a chance in the Canadian context.

If that was applied nationally the Bloc would be a very small party. As I've argued with you before, I would actually like to see more parties, fringe or whatever. I don't have a problem with your disagreeing with me however.

True, although we both come from Saskatchewan that issue doesn't resonate with me. I still blame rural Saskatchewan for Grant Devine and his buddy Colin Thatcher. I think under STV or FPTP the rural areas get the representation their population warrants.

Not at all, if it wasn't for the partial success MMP enjoys in practice I would be much more against it. But as I said off the top, neither MMP nor STV have a Canadian history. If Ontario and BC each adopt one of those systems it would be very illuminating for the country and I'd be all for eventually adopting whichever one worked best.

As for Gordon Gibson, I've said before its too bad he was involved because of the optics and because I don't think he adds much to the knowledge base.

Electing public servants

The mla's changed the electoral system twice before without consulting anyone.
Nope, you been tricked good. The whole referendum hoodwink was to get you to accept the 40% superminority swindle! You swallowed it hook line and sinker.
STV was just the bait.
I bet if stv was brought in in referendum the boys would throw it out in a couple of elections anyway. Know why? Politicians hate it cos they have to work hard to keep their jobs!
In ireland they cannot get rid of it without a referendum. (A real one with a 50% +1 vote majority).
But here, all they need is a majority in favour of a bill in the ledge.
Voters were fooled with the "really really important decision" bulls**t while the politicians took away voter rights to make important decisions with the superminority veto right under their noses!
You see, really important decisions are the knife edge ones (like newfoundland joining canada).

Frank

I don't have a lot of problem with what you've written although I'm still very chary of ethnic issues - BC is in the middle of a very significant demographic and cultural shift and I'm not sure that STV is at all right for a jurisdiction in that kind of flux.

I think, assuming we go into a deep recession after the Olympics, that ethnic cleavages and economic inequality will bode ill for this province. In a situation where those issues are exacerbated with multi-member urban ridings we might all be ill served by STV while with MMP the idea of the stability afforded by a few experienced old 'list' pols might very well be valuable.

I'd suggest that if the urban/rural split had been handled better and more insightfully in Saskatchewan (long before the Devine years) that some of the problems rural Saskatchewan has suffered (and is going to suffer as more and family farms are bought up by corporate and outside interests) could have been ameliorated. All the rural socialists moved to the cities while the dinosaurs stayed in the small towns as they moldered around them.

In the end, I think I'd be happier if we took a long serious look at the whole democratic exercise from top to bottom. When members of the general public (as they do now) are far better educated, imaginative and well-informed than our elected representatives are then it's time for a real change in the ways we govern ourselves.

Still, as I've said before, I'll probably support STV reluctantly - just as I did in 2005 - despite the potential for a problems. I do wish the promo people would take a long break though. They are boring, tendentious and solipsistic – in my view.

There has to be a better way. I think we need a constitutional assembly and not another ginger group like Gordon's gang of gophers though. I think ov has some very good suggestions, in fact. Somehow or other, we have to get more of the citizens engaged – and oftener than once every 4 years. The current system is a mess.

After STV

I am afraid that the combination of a hot economy and a relatively normal and balanced legislature does not bode well for the achievement of the 60% thresholdinthe next referendum on electoral reform.

I suggest--as part of Rafe's "Let's Try Democracy" strategy that the NDP commit to

(1) bring in a more modest electoral reform, if BC once again gets a vote that is between 50% and 60%--as I have suggested, 6 multi-member districts of 4-6 seats each is one option; having 1/3 seats as province-wide "open list" MMP is another(I prefer the former).

(2) Make sure future increases in MLA salaries are linked in large part to average salaries and incomes; and that pensions are in line with the rest of the public sector. It is pernicious to do otherwise and acquiesce in the Liberals' hitching the MLAs wagons to what happens in the corporate sector

(3) Promise at least month's worth of Legislative sitting in the fall, for reasons of accountability. Even with little legislation, question period and committee work should merit at least a short sitting.

(4) Consider a major tax proposal--targetted to lower incomes and middle class people---who generally use less energy and produce fewergreenhouse gases per capita. Two can play the tax cutting and tax shifting game

No debate = No Democracy

No debate = No Democracy

Did Campbell ever return the

Did Campbell ever return the books to the Legislature library?
Just a thought.