Rafe

I heard you tell this same story on the Puffmaster's CBC morning show last week. It was lame and off-point then and it's still lame and off-point. But still, as they say, confession is good for the soul.

However, there is a big difference between volunteers who think acting the fool on hot-line talk shows on their own dime is a good idea and highly paid so-called civil servants doing the same thing themselves. People like Prem Vinning, Dave Basi, and Bobby Virk; others like Doug Walls and Tom Reitsma and well…you get the picture

Especially when the nonsense and the lies isn't just in the context of an election campaign.

As for getting the mentally challenged out to vote. I've seen a lot more of that in conservative Oak Bay than I've ever seen in left-leaning downtown Victoria…and it wasn’t the NDP doing it either. That’s all beside the point in this case. The Gordon Campbell Government has honed dirty-tricks to a point that wouldn’t have been out of place in the early 70s in Washington DC. It’s just that the plumbers have different names.

The premier, by the way, is a signal example of someone who 'hasn't kept his promises' even though he had the ability to do so. Funnily enough, I suspect there is a big basket of non-public promises that he HAS kept. To the letter.

Moreover, that's the problem.

You are right about how messed up the system is and I hope you keep going to those Gateway protest rallies. Your help is much appreciated.

Personally I feel all

Personally I feel all political donations should be anonymous. Guess we'd see how altruistic everybody would be then, eh? Why should someone or some corporation be able to buy more "rights" than the average Joe?

As above, so below

Quote: The premier, by the way, is a signal example of someone who 'hasn't kept his promises' even though he had the ability to do so...unquote.

Now why would it surprise anyone? This province was gullible enough to buy the idea that the drunk driving was just one little slip in an otherwise sort of decent personality, it counts as a disability and so on, don't judge, blah, blah, blah. Reckless disregard for other people's lives, the complete failure to take precautions such as telling a friend: 'if I'm too goggle eyed to drive, please snatch my keys', all that does not come out of the blue. Get it: The man doesn't give a blessed damn about anyone other than himself, and the circle of friends he surrounded himself with after we handed him the key to our province are of the same ilk. It was their turn now! To what? 'get in there and have their cake?' Well they got it, and we get to pay. Would that we could learn from it...

Dirty tricks.........

.........are not just the domain of politicians, but crown corporations and senior bureaucrats! They spin the truth so much that it has become a power source!

So bad is government (at all levels) at fibs that after a while they begin to believe their own BS! the result chaos!

Thanks, Rafe ...

Thanks for putting us all straight on this one. Politician is synonymous with liar. Now we just have to figure out which one will lie to us less and to a lesser significance.

Rafe, I expected better of you.

Rafe:

It's not the same at all.

A political campaign is one thing.

But contracting the services of highly paid bureaucrats to (a) neglect their real jobs, and (b) to work against the interests of the people paying their salaries ... can't you see the difference?

One of these exercises is subversion. And surely you know that.

... and by the way, who paid?

Re Bureaucrat X -- who was already on the public payroll -- who paid him the extra $10,000. contract money to undertake these nasty little campaigns against the Opposition?

We did, I bet. And if you're really being honest, Rafe, you gotta admit that's pretty low-down crass. Maybe even illegal, eh?

NO write offs on tax

More to the point: political donations should not be tax extempt!
Let them pay with their own (after tax) money!

There is nothing the rich hate more than paying retail for anything: if there is no write off, they might not be so generous!

meaningless barnyard droppings...

Rafe's point is well taken:

it is not illegal to organize a rent-a-crowd, not illegal to 'stack' telephone lines to a call-in show, it is not illegal to drive-in mental patients or seniors to polling stations.

dirty tricks they may be, but not illegal

this entire part of the Virk-Basi-Virk case is simply bovine scatology.

pretty lame defence, I'd say

But it clearly points out the difference between what Rafe was involved in during an election campaign and what CEO Campbell has been supervising, paying for and benefiting from as a matter of course and part of the day to day process of manufacturing consent.

This is very different, very dirty, and the Premier and his hired guns should not be on the public payroll. They should resign and see if there is still some cheap property available in Paraguay next to the Bush property.
http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=162338

Quote:dirty tricks they may

Oh, give it a break, Murdock - if they were committed by people on the public payroll, they ARE illegal. Othe than that, they're just immoral and dishonest (and yes, the NDP do them too, but not using government employees on government time on government orders.....).

Campaign tricks

While working on an NDP provincial campaign some time ago, I was asked to write a letter to the editor (signed by another NDP member) hinting that the other party was involved in some skulduggery. They were furious (we knew the allegation was a contrived slander) and rightly diagnosed the letter as a plant. It's part of the political game and the NDP plays it too.

OK, dolphin, but....

Were you a ministerial aide on the public payroll when you did that? Was it the Premier who had you do it?

So why vote?!

So why should we bother voting so someone can be a member of the 'Liars Club'!

I guess we are (in general) really sheep!

OK Dolphin but...

There is also a big difference in a letter signed by the person who takes ownership of the contents, even if it was composed by another, and a person on the government payroll using his/her on the job time to play partisan games. That is dishonest and qualifies as the end justifies the means and brings it back to the person who hired them...Campbell & Co.

Dobell

He's having a news conference as we speak.

Claims that Jessica McDonald has cleared him.

Doesn't mention of course that Jessica McDonald is an appointed Deputy of the Premier - as was Dobell.

Not exactly arms length.

HACKING ON THE PUBLIC'S DIME

So, thirty years ago Douglas "Bud" Smith played Murray Chotiner to Rafe Mair's Dick Nixon, eh? Well isn't that interesting. It seems that talking on the phone eventually became Smith's undoing, so perhaps there's an element of foreboding in his 1975 capers.

I think the real issue here is that Basi and Virk were doing their telephone tricks on the public payroll as Ministerial Aides. These are political jobs paid by the taxpayer on the understanding that these people will be helping the Minister to implement government policy, to help carry out the mandate the government received in the election.

Everyone knows that some of their work will lean into more partisan political activities, as for example when they prepare media "talking points" designed to sell the policy package to the press and the public, or when they arrange speaking tours for their Minister that get press coverage that ultimately reflects back on the party and, if the policy package is popular, helps to reinforce voter suppport for the governing party.

But from what has been brought to light here, these aides were going well beyond that and were spending so much of their time running low-rent rendezvous political heists that it's hard to imagine they took any kind of meaningful role in government policy whatsoever.

It really calls into question the self-image BC Liberals like to promote of themselves as a bunch of Yuppie business types who have generously agreed to put their lucrative private careers on hold for a few years in order to run the BC Govt according to business principles and to grow the BC economy. It's beginning to look as though the government crew in BC is really just a bunch of hardcore political junkies whose only marketable skill sets are running perpetual election campaigns and putting on silly-bugger voter manipulation scams.

BCGEU members are 'on the payroll'?

more bovine scatology! Skookum1

during the NDP time in office I am certain that an accurate search of government records will turn up at least one, if not an entire office-full of BCGEU members that took an 'afternoon off' WITH PAY to support this or that initiative of the NDP government! Since their 'friends' were 'in office' they knew that there would be no consequences for this 'paid' rent-a-crowd effort!

It was this exact situation that the Socreds got totally fed-up with since they could not count on such actions when they were 'in office'.

Also, what does the teachers' actions (now clearly called criminal) mean? Are not teachers 'on the payroll' of the public?

Just another reason to dump the stupid non-democratic system we have for something closer to self-governance. Otherwise it will be successive turns of one group or the other pigging out on the public trough.

Details please?

Also, what does the teachers' actions (now clearly called criminal) mean?

What are you talking about Murdock?

HACKS is all that can be said!

Well put Budd Campbell!

Sadly I think the exact same statement could be made of the Glen Clark administration.

Who are you?

G West

I shall not engage in any discussion with you, we have been over this ground before.

For those whom do not understand my position please read:

http://thetyee.ca/Views/Teacherdiaries/2007/02/27/BoyTrouble/

For you Garth West:

go away, do not go away angry, just go away.

Not at all Murdock

There's a big difference between what Basi and several others were up to (allegedly with the knowledge and connivance of the premier) these guys were OIC appointments - not union volunteers.

A very big difference

Your generally dyspeptic view of current political arrangements - not being local enough for your own manipulative desires to have much effect - is showing.

pretty clear which side Murdock works for (volunteer at least)

Geez, Murdock, what is it with you right-wing dissemblers anyway? Here you again, pointing fingers at the NDP (without specifics, just allegations - specifics that if they'd gone down Global would have sniffed out and inflated even farther than the tripe they concocted against Harcourt and Clark).

You're a collaborator, an apologist, a dissembler, and clearly more interested in slagging the NDP as a way to take the heat off your heroes than you are in being brave enough to say "well, yeah, it seems like these guys are clearly in the wrong". Pointing at alleged crimes of past regimes as a way to dodge having to talk about the now-released evidence concerning the current regime is just so.....so.....SOVIET.

Murdock, buddy, two wrongs

Murdock, buddy, two wrongs don't make a right. The Campbell & Clowns co. ran on the promise of "most open and accountable government". They put themselves into a higher standard with that alone. Not to mention most of us peons are sick of the bovine scatology (love that phrase, thanks)and want some serious change.

Quote:during the NDP time in

murdoch, I cannot agree that this ever occured. Public servants would not act like this. YOu may think they do, but they don't.

Thank you Skookum1

I so enjoy being called names like that, it balances out the times I get called a 'leftie' for posting here.

I say that these actions are 'dirty tricks' but only for those whom are 'tricked' by them.

I remember hearing the loudspeaker at the Harcourt election rally and the union leader proclaiming "NOW WE HAVE OUR GOVERNMENT IN CHARGE!" I laughed when I heard that and was happy to know that I was going to be leaving the provice to work elsewhere for a while, many others whom were in private business were busy looking for other opportunities in Alberta and Ontario at that time, since they knew ~ at least for the next 3-7 years ~ the chance of any small business or non-union shop getting any governement contracts were so close to nil as to not bother in the counting.

All I have to support my view that the NDP uses the same tactics is my observations of those tactics in action. I was not a 'union member' and only got hints about what was done from friends. They were careful not to let too much out as they seemed to know that such things were frowned upon. I know that a telephone 'boiler-room' was operating in Victoria in 1996, doing loads of calls all over the province. The people working in the room were all BCGEU members, ostensibly taking 'personal time' to make the calls following scripts written by an NDP government insider. Someone HIRED by the premier's office and presumably paid for by the government, as a 'communications consultant'. That consultant spent 16-18 hours a day in that 'boiler room' for 9 weeks, doing nothing else but bostering, polling and other 'nefarious things' (like call stacking I'll bet). ALL ON THE PUBLIC DIME.

Stop trying to make me out like some sort of dissembler. I say that both sides do it, and that it is not criminal under the current law. This is confirmed by the Supreme Court judge who all but said that he didn't think that dirty politics was for him to judge that Rafe mentions.

Grow up and realize the pickle we have created for ourselves.

Until we elect all out magistrates locally, and make them accountable to us whom elect them we will be stuck in the same mess as we currently are.

The only way I see to get out, is to first admit the mistakes and GET OUT.

~ to be continued

mistakes of the past and solutions

Step one we are starting to see with the court case, admiting that there are certain wrongdoings that we, the voting public, will not accept.

Step two is harder, since 'the sheeple' will need to IGNORE ALL MAJOR PARTIES AND THEIR ADVERTISING. Something that our schooling does not teach to young people, indeed quite the opposite, they are prepared to accept the 'powers that be' as the be-all and end-all of all things.

cute, but not quite right, as here at least we get to speak, there ~ you get tanks knocking on your door.

but then in your NDP (SOCIALIST) view perhaps you want tanks to shut me up?

Raif - Two wrongs make it OK

Raifs admission that the socreds used dirty tricks while he was a candidate is meant to be justification that people expect politicians to be lower the a snakes belly in a wagon rut.

The only ones who benefit from the myth that "everyone is doing it" are the pwoerful and the rich who don't take to kindly to the commoners actually voting in a government that does something other then give forest co's another break.

If Glen Clark's personal aid was also a lobbyist for another group do you really think it would have been reported on Page A-16 of the Province?

Blonde Pitbull wants change, so do I

agreed, yet for neither party, the NDP using "paid volunteer rent-a-crowds" nor the Virk version of the same thing are criminal according to our laws.

since all of the main-line parties engage in the practices then whom will craft any law to stop it?

yup, and I did not believe that for one second.

The BC Fiberals did not get 'elected' like any government since about 1970, it was the incumbent crew showing their incompetence that got them 'tossed out on their ears!'

I attribute the bovine scatology to Rafe and his years on brand X, so I redirect to Rafe on your thanks!

Serious change had a 'near-run' with the BC-STV vote and I am really, really dissapointed that the target mark was missed by such a close margin. Clearly a majority want the change, sadly it will not happen under Campbell & Co. since they now know how bad such a system would treat them, nor will the Non-Democratic Party ever enact such legislation, since it will tube their shot at the brass ring also.

This means that we, the great unwashed, need to stop acting like sheeple and start electing indepentants, a lot of them, like more than enough to form a government.

Yes it will be hard, but the alternative is even less palatable.

System is dishonest

all of the posters whom are arguing with me about whether or if the NDP did or did not engage in the EXACT SAME THINGS that the Virk crowd is saying that they did (the defence lawyer is saying this ~ which means the Basi-Virk team is admiting the actions) is immaterial.

Go back an re-read Rafe's entire section that starts with the heading:

System is dishonest

It is the system that we must reform or remake, the individuals in it right now are doing what the have to in order to make it work under the current conditions.

Like it or lump it we made it this way, we can unmake it, what it takes is a real effort.

I wonder if an admitted trickster, even a confessed one

...can be counted on as a very reliable spokesperson for reform.

I think you're much too overawed with Rafe's experience and his conclusions. Remember, a Socred Government of this province is the only one that ever had a cabinet minister jailed.

I'm not so sure Rafe's jaundiced views are typical of anything except the Socred way of doing things.

You might also want to cast your mind back to a certain controversy involving a 'former' premier and the stock market subsequent to his time in office.

What Basi and Virk did, among others, was very different.

Well, not exactly the same,

Well, not exactly the same, Murdock, if a union or non union person is so inclined to take their lawful holidays or other such leave to volunteer for which every hopeful then no problem. However, these guys were not only working they are in a much more fragile position.They over stepped that line. Even as the so so of a union or local party office is different than the aides to certain ministers. My veiw.

sorry..

that should have been...which EVER hopeful...

not on 'holiday'

sure, if it was a 'holiday'.

These folks were not 'on holiday'. They left work at noon or 2 pm, headed over to the 'boiler room' and did their shifts. Others in their office either 'covered' for them or simply left their work undone. The latter was what I saw on at least three occasions when I did come into the offices and tried to contact the people whom were 'in meetings'. I did some more poking around and asking questions since I was getting tired of the run-around all the time and having my time wasted.

The boiler room operator was a 'communication consultant' PAID for on the Government dime, that means thee and me.

If you agree that an union organiser//member can 'volunteer' this way then I say that anyone can be 'compensated' for these acts.

I say that, like Rafe has pointed out, these acts are not the fodder of a Supreme Court action and are in no way criminal ~ under the current laws.

What is more important is the RCMP accused of re-directing the investigation. The actions that Vasi-Birk are supposed to have done in connection with the sale of BC Rail, not this petty sand-box garbage.

This is why the defence lawyers have raised all these issues, to get the lense off their clients' wrong doings and lead a trail (of bovine scatiology) to someone else...

I don't disagree with that murdock

But to imply that political dirty tricks directed out of the Premier's office (because that's what is being alleged) isn't a lot different than some union folks showing up at a public demonstration is just silly.

These people are not hiding their identity and pretending to be someone else. Nor are they paid political operatives.

Very, very, different and a Campbell specialty.

Now we can tell the True Blue from the Downright Brownish

It's fascinating that so many people can't tell the difference between volunteering to work for a cause or a candidate ... as opposed to being hired secretly to do it, while working for somebody else.

I think we may have found the litmus test.

The artful, or art of deceit

Others have covered tha main points of contention above. I thought it useful to point out the expression of Rafe's continuing core belief system. Rafe exposes his bias when he casually conflates political dirty tricks equally to a both sides of the political spectrum. Do "Businesses and labour unions" contribute to the political process? Yes. Is it an issue of balanced contribution to the political process, or to respective political parties? No. Last I saw, the left party got about 10% of its financial support from trade union, while the right party got over 70% of its financial war chest. To casually toss the reality of political finance off as a trade off is not only wrong, it is
unconscionable. But not unexpected, given the author.

other kinds of dirty tricks...Ok ok more like lightly soiled

According to columns somewhere in the Indo-Canadian Voice a while ago http://www.voiceonline.com/voice/ Basi was one of those signing up "ghost members" for the Martin leadership campaign, and also for the BC Liberals; I don't remember the details but just opened that page and will see if I can find the exact column, as it strikes me that an issue arises here as to whose time these guys were on while they were helping fluff membership rolls....not dirty tricks of the usual kind, but also morally suspect. But also, sadly, "business as usual" in this country....

sorry, not the Martin campaign

that inferenche/half-memory is because Basi had been a Martin organizer, like so many others here; the sign-ups might have been from the contest where Martin got the nod, or the one after he left; can't remember just now which aspiring leaders' campaign Basi was working for in doing this. Certainly not Ashley MacIsaac, huh?

The Solution

Endless argument about which political party is more corrupt achieves nothing. It is the system that is the problem and that must be fixed.

If you believe it can't be fixed then I suggest finding another hobby. I think it can. How? Don't vote - I repeat, DON'T VOTE - for any candidate that doesn't commit to real democratic reform.

Let's draw up a list of individual initiatives, each of which would have a real impact.

Initiative 1: repeal Section 4(2) of the Crown Proceedings Act.

Can anyone beat that?

litmus test...

You know that's the thing the law IMO seems to have a hard time seeing shades. It does black and white best. Very unhuman like but...

Bingo!

To all the holier-than-thou lefties out there (BC Mary and G West are you listening?), there is only one political party that has been convicted of fraud in this province: the BC NDP, which stole hundreds of thousands from charities in Nanaimo.

And BC Mary gets hot and bothered about calls to phone in shows. Sheesh.

Not at all, martin

The only person who was convicted in that case was....Dave Stupich.

I guess you've forgotten about a certain Robert Sommers eh?

Great Excuse ...

You can tell a person is backed against a wall when the only defence is that "they did it too" or "they are just as bad."

The BC Liberals have been caught with their hands in the proverbial "dirty tricks" cookie jar. Campbell's past comments show him to be nothing other than a hypocrite.

Good on em

I think this Basi-Virk thing is great. Unlike "Campbell-economics", this (corruption) is an issue that the average guy can understand pretty clearly all on his own.

The Socreds were corrupt (Bennett, Somners et al) and so are the Libs and I bet Campbell has his operatives trying to find a way to shut this case down or at least get it hushed up.

Because people's eyes will glaze over reading about BC Rail but the fact guys were paid to indulge in corrupt practices..., well I think the Libs might be holding a leadership convention prior to the next election.

Shutting it down

There's some interesting new stuff up at the Raids blog Frank.

http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/

And I think you're right - all of this is getting a little to close to the bone of late.

Question period was a revelation today. de Jong took just about every question himself and spun his wheels in the mud with gusto the way only he can do it.

Stonewally tried to provide one answer himself and was completely unable to explain the disconnect between what he'd said last week and the current situation relative to Dobell and his "lobbying" activities.

martin's another equivocator from the darkside

No party has ever been convicted of fraud, Martin. Despite intense documentation of things like membership dummying over the years and worse; and course while making election promises and breaking them after the vote (the voters' half of the contract) is fraud, there's just no recourse. Supporting a premier or minister that you know did wrong, even if you don't think what he/she did was wrong is also fraud; moral fraud and lack of conscience, or just plain cupidity.

But like all neo-Socred Grits you like to pretend that the NDP are the worst, while even in recent memory Fantasy Gardens stands out in clear relief as an abomination as well as a sick comedy. But why is it all you hysterical types who keep on bringing up Casinogate 15 years after the fact (has it been that long? sheesh...) and if that doesn't work, then Fast Ferries, and want to pretend that those were the worst scandals in BC history - which is the common them from types like you - you're completely and utterly wrong and you should read up on the history of scandals in this province, and the conduct of past Premiers. Sure, a lot of the corrupt ones were before the party system was introduced in 1903 (partly in reaction to the Premiership of one Joe Martin) but a lot were after too.

Sleaze? You're behaving like only the NDP were sleazy. What we're seeing in the current government is "designer sleaze" - well-dressed crime with p.r. offices spewing and organizing denial, and trying to shut down evidence disclosure while refusing to investigate further misdemeanours and more serious crimes that the evidence revealed/discovered so far are pointing towards but which the "leaders" of our society claim can't be investigated while the matter is in court, even though the matters involved do not have to do with the particular details of the case.....only the shoddy character of the government and its officials.

To quote Attorney-General Oppal, suggestions that there are "no legs" to this case (as made by Keith Baldrey repeatedly) are "baseless" (which is what he says the case is, which of course it's not - and here he is making a commetn on the case on certain issues while disavowing "on principle" the ability to comment on others; or to launch investigations which it is HIS job to do.

They've perhaps corrupted the highest offices in the province, perhaps manipulated the court and perhaps finagled with the RCMP (when the RCMP aren't doing their own finagling), and now are trying to shut the whole thing down with a new press ban leading towards a cancellation of the trial and a sealing of the evidence.....and YOU want to talk about Casinogate.

You're either a fool or a traitor, or someone in league with their madness, or who worships the ground Gordo walks on as do some of his Followers.....

question for anyone who knows

Who has the advertising contract for the Liberal Party? And who has it for the Gov of BC?

Not that they'd outsource to Burston Marsteller (?), but it just struck me that the organizational and p.r. tactics going on are all too familiar and resemble those of SHARE BC; not surprising I guess since so many of these goons got their start in politics in SHARE BC or SHARE BC-type organizations; trained by Burston Marsteller, if not actually giving them ad contracts; but the style is recognizable....

These aren't Ad firms....but?

http://rosedeer.com/index.html

http://www.innovativeresearch.ca/

I think they both have interesting connections - both political and familial

Forgetful HTT Lefties

Ah G West, how we forget the details as the years go by. Here's Canada Newswire for October 18 1999:

So, as I said, here we clearly have a political party facing justice. Only time in BC history.

Also, don't think Robert Summers was guily of fraud. That was bribery, wasn't it? In case you've forgotten, that's what Basi and Virk are charged with, too. You'd never know it from the lefties who get their knickers in a knot about hotline shows.

martin, YOU WERE WRONG: a person is not a party

I repeat: you said "party" not an individual.

Parties commit fraud all the time when in power - the throne speech, which generally is a betrayal of electoral promises, or whacked-out distortions of them (cf. 1983), and the throne speech itself generally isn't followed through with; not as it's packaged. Politics is all about lying, sure, and inherently politics is a form of fraud in more abstract terms - the cardinal sin kind - but because those betrayals involve public finances, there are larger questions already at stake in the sneakiness of the non-promises heard in elections and "from the throne" - and remember, that's all any government wants to do in the Ledge; too much gets done by order-in-council - and all too often without much announcement of media hoo-hah.

But this case is very different; it's organized fraud, committed by a whole network of people, not just by the equivalent of Dave Stupich alone, and Bingogate didn't implicate the Premier. But Harcourt, understand the constitutional system we're supposed to have stepped down, as he had appointed the minister who had committed the fraud. Any hing of taint in the British system is supposed to require resignation - to protect the dignity of the office.

It's the alternative to the impeachment system in the United States (also trickier because of the head-of-state status of the Prez and the tripartite form of separate branches of government there), and is meant to avoid public embarrassment both of the party and of the country.

Marttin's wrong part 2

And although Campbell's party isn't embarrassed (and types like you want to talk about Dave Stupich, from 15 years ago, instead of events today) - not admittedly - merely the evidence of a cover-up and conflict of interest with the police, and comments made by the A-G and more, then it's more than an embarrassment to the party. It's an embarrassment to the province and the country, and an insult to the dignity of the office that confers to the powers of the Crown on the first minister as validated by election and the parliamentary system; and inherently in the parliamentary system there is meant to be a standard of honour that unfortunately get translated well to the colonies, especially this almost-farthest one of all (only NZ is farther from the UK, I believe; remember we're talking sea-miles from the days of Empire...).

It's the dignity of the parliamentary system, which the Canadian Constitution and the British Columbia Act equally enshrine as the way things are to be done - and that includes the principle of resigning if there is any taint on the office - even directly as in Harcourt's case.

Under British constitutional law the mere fact of an investigation - much less a trial involving the Prime Minister as the subject of the kind of shenanigans we've been hearing about - would require the resignation of the PM; if he didn't resign, ultimately his own party would drive him from office. Especially the kind of nonsense we're hearing about from the evidence so far - never mind the full corpus of BC Rail documents, which we ALL should have seen as part of public discourse over the sale of public assets....but we have no say, do we? - except that frigging ballot box every four years, where all policies are summed up into one little either-or piece of paper.

And afterwards whoever gets in power runs amuck with policy changes, spending programs of all kinds (including business subsidies as I know you'd want to isolate social programs), and all those broken promises and also misrepresentations of policies as positive when they do something else (think healt care).

Matin's wrong part 3

But the corruption of a sale of a Crown Corporation with senior publicly-paid ministerial aides acting under the knowledge of the Premier and the direction of the Finance Minister, with the same people involved in party activities known again to the Premier (and you'd think not him alone within cabinet)....this is a lot bigger than fraud, Martin, a lot bigger. Stupich was a twit, a corrupt twit, but only caught up perhaps on more severe charges only because he was a socialist; believe you me there were worse crimes apparently committed by past Premiers and cabinet members, right through the whole history of BC; but their cases got shuffled aside.

Or they'd have the dignity to resign before there could be an inquiry, and hence a revelation of the facts. But this isn't about public embarrassment. And it's much, much, much bigger than petty fraud. If anything, it's really a constitutional crisis. If we had an independent legislature as in the states, there'd already be public committee investigations and hearings, and the potential for impeachment. Here we're supposed to rely on honour. "Principle", as the A-G ironically cites.

And we haven't even seen the CN files yet, nor those of any of the other bidders..

To the editor; rather than cut that last line if you have to - unless you cut the whole thing - try substituting this: "So far we've only seen the OmniTRAX file I don't mean to single out CN, but they were the winning bidder in the proverbial horserace....".

And notice in my list of the items from the evidence above my use of the phrase "if this is true".

summing up

In the British system, you don't need proof. You only need the taint of scandal to bring a government down. And this is a lot more than taint, and what it's tainted with, again, is a few notches up the ladder of immorality in politics from petty diversion of funds by a single politician.

Help me out, GWest

I remember Mike McDonald from City Hall days year ago (Rosedeer), but Innovative Research Group? Help me connect the dots. Apart from the fact that this is obviously a bullshit little firm spewing paid bullshit for the Canwest group to print as gospel truth, I mean.

It's always interesting to see how far the back-scratching extends...

And Martin...

...how quickly you forget that the BC Fiberals were convicted of exactly the same thing.

Oh, nobody went to jail. But in 2004, the Fiberals were convicted in the court of public opinion of shaking down municipalties, airports, colleges, and charities for tens of thousands of dollars in "donations" for "access to cabinet ministers" and favourable reviews of programs requiring provincial funding.

Just like the NDP, the Fiberals paid back the suspect donations before they could be used against them.

http://thetyee.ca/electioncentral/2005/05/02/trail-mix-debate-gate-still-growing/
http://thetyee.ca/electioncentral/2005/05/06/touched-by-an-angel/

Murdock's quite right in one respect - it was a tragedy that BC-STV was "defeated" with more than 50% of the popular vote.

In all other respects he's quite wrong, including unions paying to work on campaigns. Must hurt.

Rafe

Not sure what the point of this column was. It's clearly not one of your better ones. Many have already taken you to task for minimizing your political proclivities, but this one jumped out at me:

Clearly the judge ruled on a matter under the Societies Act - a nomination to political party is not a matter for the public and is not governed by the public's representatives as such.

Somehow you missed that. Let me make it plainer - the Fiberals, or Socreds, in your case, may run their nominations as corruptly as they desire, because it's a private matter for the party, not a public one. However, the public is entitled to judge them for it on election day by soundly rejecting the nominee.

It's quite unlike when Sidney Bellingham won his seat against Sir John Abbott in 1857, but was found by a judge to have corruptly induced men who did not own property, or who were not resident in the riding at the time to vote for him (Bellingham). Abbott sued and the judge agreed that dirty tricks should not be permitted when engaged on the people's business. Abbott was made MP over Bellingham and became known for more rigid enforcement of existing election law, and opposition to the making of new or additional election law that would be difficult to enforce.

Interestingly, Abbott, then fell afoul of the same law - he was defeated in 1878, won a by-election in 1880, but was found to have bribed voters, and so the byelection was overturned in favour of his opponent.

There are many more examples such as this in Canadian history. But in every case, the judiciary has made it clear that elected officials may not benefit from corruption, bribery or trickery when engaged on the people's business.

Martin - look back at what I wrote

Then look at what you wrote:

Democrat Publications Ltd., the provincial NDP's newspaper, pleaded guilty in the long-running legal proceedings and was fined $22,000. Last month, former NDP finance minister Dave Stupich was sentenced to two years less a day for his part in the scheme.

Democrat Publications is NOT the NDP Party and Stupich's role as a Cabinet minister had nothing to do with the charges he was eventually conviced of. You need to check your facts and, especially, your sense of timing.

You might also want to read Alex McDonald on the subject.

By the way, I belong to NO political party.

Zalm

Go to the Rosedeer website and check the connections. The two groups are working hand in glove.

Idid....

....oh, wait, I see, way down the links.

But who's in IRG? At least Rosedeer is forthcoming about who its principals are. IRG? Can't see a thing. Is it Spiderman(n)? Kieran? Any clues?

Trying to find out

All the connections to CanWest can't be accidental. I know someone else in the polling business - think I'll give him a call.

What gets me is

... why, when they'd got themselves a majority, did they feel the need to continue to distort and manipulate the truth in order to sell their vision? It's rather like the debate over gun control. If the argument for gun control is so strong, why does it always need lies to support it?

relayer

Because in the end, my friend, they know the majority of ordinary Canadians don't support these things and these approaches. Consequently, the need to lie, spin and obfuscate.

Apparently the prosecution got a bit of a surprise in court yesterday. You can read about it here:

http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=f10ae667-71fc-4f35-b7a4-dc05138365e5

To Zalm

You also forgot that at the time the Parks Report found "all parties deficient in their disclosures" of funds. The liberals under Campbell said they would investigate and never did. Only the NDP dealt with the matter. What makes it even more asinine is that Harcourt was the fall guy for something that happened 13 years before he came on the scene.

political masters

Thank you Rafe for telling everyone here what REALLY happens in Victoria.

This is exactly why prorep will not work. In the prorep system, the voter does not even have the pleasure of voting for an individual. The party higher ups do that for you. And you just know that all parties are selfless people who don't care about their own best interests first.

That is why I am so into direct democracy. Until voters finally take the power to screw up lives away from politicians, lawyers and judges, nothing in this province/country will ever change.

For this cause, I have bought a membership with the BC Conservatives.

I have been a Reform BC guy, and out of sheer desparation I have beaten my hand after marking a lieberal vote...

And when I bought this membership I informed the leadership that I am loyal not to the party, but rahter, I am loyal to the cause of democratic reform.

I am a devout believer that the collective wisdom of the voting public is superior in every way to that of the governing party of the day.

And it should be within the grasp of the voter to be able to undo ANYTHING that the legislature does. And easier recall is needed too. Because we cannot have politicians running amok like they are.

And Mike Harcourt and the Never Democratic Party had their shot and the party of the people dropped the ball when it was their turn to carry.

So generally, I don't trust ANY politician. And my wife who knows I have political asperations gives me an evil glint when she expresses her disgust at the current batch of politicians.

Thank you Rafe.

Mike Summers
Vanderhoof BC

self flagellation.............

is good for the soul ,i am told...

never tried it myself,though ???

but ,rafe did get a column out and lookee at the posters!!! for a crap piece !!!

wow!!! too many people with tooooooo much time on their hands.

Now there's one individual who is STANDING UP for his province !

In the film V , people wore masks . In this scenario people such as Mike Summers is removing his mask, by having his voice not only heard but fully identified.

If thousands of people from B.C. actually stood up as he did..., and stated unequivocally that they want clear answers and honest transparent government. ( not forgetting that they are the government they've created by either choice or DEFAULT ).., then this is the moment , this is the time.

Others for all kinds of reasons need to continue with their ''NOM DE PLUME''... *

Village .

As to one other who does not have to remove his mask: RAFE ,

Though I cannot agree with all of his convictions or conclusions on many ISSUES , I still feel that he has indeed A VOICE*...

And with all of his ''road travelled '' , has the role of the ELDERS ..., who can provide a template for communications and DISCUSSION. (* such as this article has created )..

THANKS Rafe,

village!!!!!!!!!!

boy...that really is ...SOME KIND OF NOM DE PLUME...

ONE OF RAFES FANS...I WOULD GUESS.

A VOICE of reasoned thought and reflection* and though at times

not fully rounded . ( not having the benefit of a full HOUSE OF CANADA perspective, that is .., he nevertheless offers up a well thought out POINT OF VIEW.)

No wonder he is still considered one of the deeper VOICES representing British Columbia *

Well earned and - as a good wine - .., getting better with age..

ONCE AGAIN , THANKS RAFE..., for being a catalyst for communications ..., in a province that too often .., is lacking depth and context - along with content - at times..., as to the greater HOUSE OF CANADA... but nevertheless ,has a thorough and deep understanding of the thinking in this particular PROVINCE*.. (RAFE, that is!)

as a good wine...getting better with age???

my god,who are you ???

cannot be an onophile...cause ya just showed you like vinegar(rafe mair's optics) not good wine

on the other hand...I FEEL YOU MEANT...RAFE WAS A FINE WHINE...

whatever,we can see your PERSPECTIVE is a little SLANTED...what kinda BC BUD ya smokin these days there,bro ???

and a QUICK TIP !!! don't buy yer wine/whine in a box...we gots lots of good cheap,yet still tasty wines here in BC.

Dirty Tricks

The Commission on MLA pay delivered its recommendation today: the recommended increase for an MLA's base pay is 28.8%, with raises to pension and other benefits the package amounts to an increase of more than 65%!

The report recommends base pay for the 79 Members of the Legislative Assembly be increased from $76,100 to $98,000 per year retroactive to April 1, 2007. The Premier, Leader of the Opposition, Cabinet Ministers and Parliamentary Secretaries are meant to get additional increases, all expressed as a percentage of base salary, so they will go up with the annual indexing. Also they recommend the renewal of a defined benefit pension plan which will cost taxpayers 37% of the member's total current salary. On top of that they suggest MLAs be given $19,000 per year, plus money for meal and other expenses, so they can keep a permanent home in the Capital Region, although the Legislature only sits 75 days a year or less. Also recommend limits be removed from travel expenses so MLAs would have unlimited taxpayer paid travel throughout the province. Annual indexing be improved to make pay fully indexed to the British Columbia Consumer Price Index with adjustments every April.

Commission recommended MLAs be permitted to buy back their pension service at half the fair actuarial value, such that an MLA who retires early (60 not 65) be penalized only 3% per year.

Thanks to David Schreck www.StrategicThoughts.com

Feeling better now?

Remember when?

Is that another collective "oink" I hear between the snuffling. Back in 1996 I can remember hearing about the Liberal MLA's signing a Campbell position paper that they would do away with the pension and, not accept one. In my riding much was made of it even after the pension had been removed by the Harcourt government before he left. So what has changed. I think it is because a bunch of Liberals want to get out but don't have their golden handshake waiting for them.

This commission was a set up from the beginning. You may now expect that the increase will be reduced to 15 percent and we are all expected to be grateful that it is not 29. All this clamor is to get the pension reinstated. Boot out the lot of them and start over if that happens.

Re:remember when???

It's to bad we don't live in a democracy.

It's too bad Mike Harcourt betrayed the voters of BC with his sham of a Recall and Initiative legislation. Him and the NDP have ripped off the voters in BC soundly. BUT!!!! Don't let them survey dog lieberals off! They are in power and could fix it but they sure as heck ain't doing anything that would be good for the voters.

I forgot...

Mike Summers
Vanderhoof BC :-)

What I was saying Thomas stands !

Rafe is a Communicator par excellence ..
Initiating thinking by having the courage to put forth what his mind tells him to !

He has both the courage and the capacity to ENGAGE the PUBLIC in a Dialog*.., with intelligence and research. ( G West has this ability also , but does not have the experience that Rafe has . ) Thus , my comments go to show appreciation to those who display an attraction to the very IDEA being discussed* SO AS TO ADVANCE THE LEARNING , TO ADVANCE ALSO THE GREATER GOOD OF THE DIALOG and HOPEFULLY the PUBLIC itself.. *

Simply compare other contributors to this Forum and you will get my drift very quickly!

Another contributor that comes to mind is SKOOKUM 1 ... who has

substance and obvious research AND experience..

BC Mary , etc..

really free bc

For this cause, I have bought a membership with the BC Conservatives.

LOL

what you have done is like wanting to change your enjoyment of hockey and to get it you switch from TSN coverage to CBC!

If you reall mean that into direct democracy statement then you will have to back it up with more than a switch from chocolate to vanilla.

Great that you seem to think that the BC Conservative candidate is the right ft for you right now, but realize whatever you said to the party leadership went in one ear and out the other. Unless you hand them a $1,000,000 checque I guarantee that you will get less than your $10 membership's worth of their time, interest, or value from it.

just like a GRAIN in the SAND... Hé Murdock !

How to create a Beachhead then ?

BH

as was said to one young man of what to make of his now 'free' life when asking such a question of Frederick Douglass, his answer was

"Agitate, agitate."

another of his quotes comes to mind also, regarding these very issues:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Douglass

Dismissives...

While it's easy to poo poo my choice for governance, which is on record as wishing direct democracy, there are those here who seem to think that treasonous politicians not unlike Mike Harcourt, and Gordon Campbell, are okay. Even whatshername Carr and the greenies don't have a true democratic agenda.

So, assuming that lightening struck and the greenies manged a seat, what would change? Nothing. because as sure as God made little green apples, anything the greenies did would tick off the balance of the populace and immeadiately be undone by the succeeding government.

The agenda of one replacing the agenda of the other.

So, I'm game. WHAT IS YOUR SUGGESTION TO GET AWAY FROM WHAT WE ARE HAVING NOW?

Mike Summers
Vanderhoof BC

suggestion, just a suggestion

the BC-STV was a realistic option and we in BC threw it away.

http://www.citizensassembly.bc.ca/public/extra/stv_resources.xml

http://www.gov.bc.ca/referendum_info/popt/electoral_systems_first_past_the_post_and_bc_stv.htm

I personally like the idea of the New England system that this was originally adopted from. Where everyone (or nearly everyone) in a voting district comes out to count the ballots for a few days, it takes time, but then the majority of the adult population of the area will be reasonably certain that the votes were cast properly and really counted, because THEY DO IT!

The whole idea of voting machines and no paper trail is an anathema to me and while it may seem backwards I like the idea of there being some sort of proof of voting or a 'habeus corpus'with which to verify any one vote.

Dirty tricksters

Just to bring the subject back to the nominal one, readers might be interested in this:
http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/

The link at the very top of the page - the one about Gary Collins - is the one I'm referring to.

Pretty powerfull stufff Gwest , and very disturbing to say the

least*... ( not only the language being quoted ...but obviously the INTENTIONS communicated ).

As this begins to unfold , the very fabric of the POLITICAL CULTURE of this PROVINCE becomes very suspect , INDEED.!

Thanks once again for bringing this material to the attention of the readers Gwest..

And many thanks to BC MARY.., for an extra-ordinary effort done.., on behalf of the citizens of this province. I , for one am very happy to acknowledge her forbearance and dedication*.

VILLAGE..

Organized crime & gangster talk

To "rip Barb Sharp a new asshole" is the kind of talk I would expect to hear out of someone like Bindi Johal or Rick Ciarnello, not out of a senior ministerial aide in the provincial government......

It's clear now that not all charges that should have been laid in this case were laid. And that, while "drugs, guns and hookers" are not part of the formula, a number of aspects of misconduct already revealed do fall under Section 467.1(1) of the Criminal Code defining "organized crime":

I continued on to read Robin Matthews' post on Mary's blog and this caught my eye:

No, it's not amusing; it's a red herring, just like the MLA pay-increase smokescreen, though more stubtle. The pretense of openness while the practice of the opposite; as if out of the Liberals' very own playbook. I wonder if the federal court justices will be as coy when all this mess moves to the banks of the Rideau? (and it will....)

What are the backgrounds of Justices Dohm and Brenner, and when were they appointed to the bench and by who? Justice Bennett?

I think we'd be better off if we elected judges, like in the US, considering what we wind up with the patronage system here. Not that electing judges is a bad thing, but at least you can call them on their apparent bullshit. (Note I said "apparent" so as to avoid contempt charges for otherwise saying a justice's words were bullshit).

correction (coffee, more coffee...)

semantic reversal: "Not that electing judges is a bad thing" was meant to be "not that electing judges is a good thing"

re; THE POST ALLUDED TO ABOVE..,

Ome can sense that within all of these revelations that are so disturbing as to becoming now part of our POLITICAL LORE..

There remains the coded riddle , puzzle and enigma itself..within this unfolding saga. THAT POINTS TO THE VERY QUESTION REMAINING WITHIN THIS PROVINCE..ie. ( is there HARMONY , or better yet.. does HARMONY within the story line.. have anything to do with what will be disclosed next ? ) ..

One can sense with this most revealing allegation , the unraveling of a very important drama .. IN THE VERY COURTS OF THE LAND.*

Every Citizen of this province , needs now to follow in very micro details the process itself..,so that never again will we ever have to experience this kind of behavior displayed for all of us to see.... and furthermore it is a kind of feeling and findings eventually (and hopefully ) that will clearly document the UNRAVELING of this sordid affair*..

Reminds me of another nightmare..,( that of the Nixon tapes..), and the taste that was left in my mouth at the time. The language used and the troubling implications of the strategies being discussed..,are most disturbing*..

Clearly time for taking a deep deep breath and with summing up a lot of courage to actually take the steps necessary to eradicate this kind of behavior ... ( AND POLITICAL THINKING CULTURE.).,that would have us all..., be pawns in the game of .., as well as being the target within the political battle for our collective minds..*

Such is our options now , such is the emergency that is before us.., realising that it's now or never. And do something about this!

And perhaps bring about an AWAKENING , like we've never seen before..

( and to think all the while this is going on..,there is consideration being given in the legislature ..,to actually raise the salaries of the MLA's and Premier . )

I would think the decent thing that should now happen is that every decision ( of this nature ) be put on hold .., until a certainty[/b of CLARITY and DECENCY returns to our political culture and governance model ... [b]for clearly , we face now..., a troubling revelation , in that corruption seemingly resides in the very depth of our legislature.., and needs to be ROOTED OUT *.., immediately !

more semantic clarification (coffee, coffee...)

i.e. "and Justice Bennett" would have worked better; I didn't mean to ask if she'd appointed Justices Dohm and Brenner, of course, but rather to pose the same question about her.

and.....

if all this was going on with the sale of BC Rail, what else was going on with the sale of the accounting division of Hydro to Accenture and the equivalent sale of MSP records-keeping to that firm in...Virginia was it? And all the other public assets which have been auctioned off in half-public bidding procedures since the Grits took over? And the "privatization" of our hydro potentials to non-Crown developers, like the new Toba River project?

You can't be serious...

"the BC-STV was a realistic option and we in BC threw it away."

Perhaps you like all the back room dealings that we have now. BC-STV was nothing more than another way to fracture our province even more than it is and generally increase numbers od MLA's. And in my mind, the last thing this province needs is more of what we have now combined with more back room, out the public eye dealings than we have now.

NO THANKS! I openly campaigned against BC-STV before and would do it again because at no time did it actually increase democracy. In fact, it actually decreased it substantially.

I would have thought that someone who appears to be so intelligent would have looked at the workings of the BC-STV rather than at your own agenda which you may have thought you had a shot at.

For heaven sake man. Change the way politics works in this province totally, and you can present your ideas to the people of the province exclusive of big business interests. Then during the discussion period you will have ample opportunity to present your case for what ever it is that you want to see accomplished. Then the people who are way smarter than anyone seems to be giving them credit for will decide the issue.

And the only reason I can think of that you wouldn't want this option is that even you think your ideas are too radical or flakey to have a real shot at passage.

Mike Summers
Vanderhoof BC