Follow the money

The 'family compact' is alive and well, it uses other names and guises but it is still Ontario leadership that 'chooses' the PM candidates. Which is why it matters not which party one votes for ~ it will always be an Ontario minded PM with just enough 'franco' to satisfy la belle province.

The energy issue is the real dividing line and I see; BC and Alberta as getting more fed-up with the current arrangements...getting out faster if there is even a hint of a new 'national energy program'.

The trail of money is going to get harder and harder to accept, seeing that hard earned effort going to pay off PQ hands.

MLA's

Without any discussion our MLA a NDP'er, whom I voted for in the last Election,as the option was a Conservative; She chose to vote the party line with no notice given to her constituents. I e- mailed her with my regrets but now I will vote Liberal or green. But as usual I had no answer. A democracy. Hardly! Quebec is not a country but our elite knows where the votes are and us western pee-ons get what we deserve left out. Vote The Western Separatist Party as long as they are not as right wing as reform. The west still wants in.

What if Alberta goes?

Forget about Quebec. They are easy to deal with. It's Alberta that is an important issue.
As John Baird pointed out last week wit his economic analysis of the economic price we will pay bty adopting the guidelines of the Kyoto Protocol, Alberta won't tolerate this lunacy.
And it is pure lunacy.
If Alberta goes ( and there is that distinct possibility } the gravy train is gone. It will be the task of the hapless eastern Provinces to save the rest of Canada.
Enacting the folly of humans changing the climate, will cause the liberal brain trust of eastern Canada ( hopeless liberal, feminised, wimps, pussies, woos es, weak, liberal, mindless wimps from the so called centre of the universe.} to bail out you hopeless,inadequate lib/left wimps to sort out the rest of the mess.
I can't wait.

Alive

Americans might be arrogant (even as arrogant as Tyee posters) but it seems to me that the US stays together because it is a confederation of states. Their states are much more autonomous than our provinces. So you can have fairly divergent cultural and political differences. Texas has a separate culture of governance from New York, California is not Utah, etc.

The provinces are nominally equal in Canada (hence the Senate) but in practice, Quebec IS a nation, which might be one reason why its assertion of that obvious fact is such an affront to the rest of us, having grown up with federalism.

It really will be interesting to see if the provinces as constituted would survive in a post-split Canada or if there would be a reorganization.

Another idea is to give the separatists Baffin Island. That makes the most sense to me.

Baffin Island

Baffin Island is shaping up to be a paradise if this climate change thing gathers some steam. So I'm drawing a line in the snow and saying Baffin Island over my cold dead body or from my cold dead hand or whatever.

If Quebec Goes

As an ex Ontarioan I'm still amazed, 40 odd years later, at the venom directed at the East. Get out a good reference book and find out how many people live where in Canada. Numbers, more than wealth, dictate where power lies in a democracy.Quebec is an exception to this rule only because of lack of foresight when the original contract was drawn up. Our ancestors couldn't foresee a day when English speakers would outnumber French speakers.
This continuing vilification of Ontario is just silly, to say the least.

yes indeed

after growing up in Mtl from 70 - 96, then TO from 96-2003, and Van from then on, I have to say putting a fence around the GTA (maybe all Ont.) would go a long way to improving the rest of the country.

nice article and frankly for all those interested in truly understanding our world vis-a-vis the power dynamics of the establishment, John Ralstons Saul's Voltaire's Bastards is required reading. Awesome, read it over a decade ago, but chock full of the how and why the establishment fucntions in this country (and the states).

Yammer

I've said this a few times on the Tyee and been blasted as an American worshipper. You are right. There are many things we can learn from the Americans, many positive, many negative. Perhaps the one thing that America does better than anybody is unity and patriotism.

I wish we looked at our flag with as much pride as they do. Let's not get into whether or not they are ignorant - the one thing they've been able to do, is maintain a proud country full of diverse mini-nations.

Some states have the death penalty, some don't. States have different gun laws. Some states allow same sex unions, some don't. Each State crafts its own civil rights constitution and environmental policy. So, people in Boston are not telling people from South Carolina what to do, and vice versa.

ONTARIO needs to recognize that the needs of Alberta differ from the needs of BC, which differ from the needs of the Maritimes, which differ from the needs of Ontario...

For example, in BC, we have to strike a several tricky balances. We are an energy producer, but we also have some of the most environmentally sensitive land. We have forests, which are key to our economy, but also to habitat. Same as fisheries. Nobody understands our issues better than we do, especially not Ottawa.

Alberta, is looked at as a political piece more than a province. All the Eastern representative politicing what do with Alberta's money. Everybody is weighing in on Alberta - partly because they've become so influential on Canada.

Just let them be!!!

Hey Mal Content

Consider this:

The GTA produces more Carbon emissions than anywhere in Canada. The industrious area if full of cars, traffice, polluting factories, etc. etc. Toronto has some of the worst air quality in North America. In the summer, you can barely see the downtown while driving into downtown on the DVP. Each summer, there are dozens of smog warnings.

Yet, what has Ontario's answer been? Cap oil sands production?!?!?!

God forbid cramp down on the auto industry - repsonse - it would destroy the economy....

Just think about it....hypocricy? Yes, it still exists.

Number of votes

I’ve always felt that you were wrong on this issue, Rafe. The ROC will have control over the greatest number of votes once Quebec is out of the picture and it’s not clear to me how Ontario can force the rest of us to acquiesce to its will……

Facts

1/3 of all the greenhouse gases pumping into the atmosphere in Canada come from Alberta. It is the largest provincial contributor by a long shot.

Fact

G - my understanding is that Alberta represents 1/3 of greenhouse gas reported. More specifically, there are approximately 300 facilities required to report GHG emissions accross Canada. Of the total reported by all of these units, 1/3 comes from Alberta.

This reading does not count motor vehicles, household gas use, or other urban facilities.

Now - I could be wrong. Though, I remember reading somewhere that the GTA has the highest carbon emissions and worst air quality in Canada.

Being hung up on Quebec

I will point out that Ontarians often have direct real world people experience with francophone populations. Does Rafe have any such experience??? Has he ever taken any interest in francophones that live around here? Has he ever lived in Quebec??? Why is he so hung up on this topic???

Rafe having gone green should have perhaps mentionned that they sit on terrawatts of renewable hydroelectric power next to a power hungry neighbour.

salute the flag?

You got that right, and do not forget religions and clans?

They simply do not realize that there is a big world out there, and that it is OK not to agree with your leaders!

Of course if your objective is to keep a nation together even when it is not practical and serves no purpose, then USA is the model!

For us it serves no purpose that we have to be bilingual, just to please people who live thousands of miles away, as one example!

We have more in common with the pacific rim than we do with the anything east of the rockies.

gaulois

I think it is fair that all canadians take interest in the topic, whether they've been to Quebec or not.

If you look at the comic to this article, you'll see that we are sending Quebec billions of dollars. Quebec was already the recipient of the largest tranfers - now they are getting more.

Imagine what we, in BC, could do with 3+ Billion.

Furthermore, think of the political ramifications of a Canada without Quebec. The balance of power would immediately shift West. The right would control Canada for decades.

I don't necessarily agree with Rafe, though this topic is of great importance to us in Canada....this is far more meaningful, daily, than SSM or other social issues. This is our future, what our country will look like in 50 years, and our tax dollars at work - used to bribe this ungrateful "nation".

Alive

I knew this would come up and I didn't want to go there. Like I said, there is much we can learn from America - some things we should embrace - many we should distance ourselves from.

They have achieved a model of unity and patriotism. A land of opportunity where the immigrant (legal) is more successful than the natural. They've kept a country with wildly different views together and bonded...

Smoke&mirror

I do not trust media or politicians *whatsoever* about "Quebec" milking up. There is definitely some elite lackeys milking up but would differentiate the scammers from the people. Should we not have learnt this by now? I thought BC was the land of counter-media and counter-culture.

What's he talking about???

I don't understand the article. Mr. Mair believe it will be necessary, in future, for Ontario to accept less than it's traditional "honourable position of superiority". I haven't read anything to lead me to believe that Ontario has any traditional position of superiority, so what would that be? Is Ontario overrepresented by population in the Commons? (No, underrepresented.) Is Ontario overrepresented by population in the Senate? (No, underrepresented.) In the Supreme Court? (No, underrepresented.) Uh, so, what would need to be adjusted? A more extreme form of underrepresentation? Please enlighten!

Puleeze! Deckchairs on the Titanic!

Why are we still talking about Quebec, when the North American Union proceeds without anybody knowing, let alone voting for it.
About the only question I have is whether Quebec they will be allowed outside of the NAU. I think that's doubtful.
http://www.canadians.org/publications/CP/2007/spring/DI_TIMELINE.pdf

So when is this supposed to happen Rafe?

So when is this all supposed to happen Rafe as you seem so confident that it will?

I, on the other hand, think it will not happen, but the posturing will always!

Even Alberta postures about becoming indepeendent, or another u.s. state!

Most Quebecers are Canadians-just ask them!

Excusez moi, etes vous Quebcecois et Canadienne?

If Canada disintegrates into smaller states it will be a shame. Do the provinces really think they can exist on their own?

I doubt it!

It will never happen the way

It will never happen the way you think it will. Did Rafe mention the Inuit and Cree who had their own separate referendums prior to the rest of Quebec in 1995? They voted overwhelmingly - over 90% - in favour of remaining a part of the Canadian polity. That's a mighty big chunk of aboriginal land, given to Quebec in 1898 and 1912, which doubled the size of the province. There is much dissension within the separatist movement as well. You'll get the diehard pur laine francophones and those who seek a better deal with ROC. I don't think the Cree or Inuit want much to do with the former. No one can sort this it out to anyone's satisfaction unless the financial community in Montreal and elsewhere intervene because ultimately they are what really controls the country. The rest is just a lot of hot air and the blowing of trumpets.

some answers for Freebear

Not only Rafe, many other pundits and writers have posed that the balkanization of Canada will occur within the lifetime of persons living today.

Keep those rose-colored glasses on!

Alberta, sadly, is like Saudi-Arabia with loads of fossil fuels buried underground; unfortunately they (Alberta) do not have any coastline, they are land-locked. Meaning they will have to have some sort of 'arragements' to export that energy safely and still obtain benefit from it. Otherwise they will have to 'pay tribute' for their continued safe existence.

Excusez moi, etes vous Quebcecois et Canadienne?

mais non, je me souviens.

and as Rafe has correctly pointed out, after the current elections for the National Assembly, less than 50% voted for Parties or leaders that support Quebec as part of Canada.

I doubt it!

Keep your head in the sand and continue to ignore the powers of the digital world, the dangers of fiat currency, the power of natural capital, and the human need for 'free will'.

post-Quebec FCC (Former Conefderation of Canada)

Oh, there's planning all right, we just haven't been told about it, or asked to participate in it....

And I'm all with Rafe on this one: Ontario plus eight smaller provinces, including two which hate its guts and have no reason to be friendly (other than voters in those provinces with family/roots in ON), is not going to last, no more than the Confederation of Indepedent States outlasted the '90s which spawned it. And also, what we're left with is this sham constitution inherited from Disraeil's England in 1867 = 1982 ewas little more than a touch-up job to entrench "parliamentary goveernment" which by then in Canada had become the instrument of porkbarrel management (and little more) that it evolved to on this side of the pond.

A fracturing Canada without any real democratic systems in place at the provinces will allow twits like Campbell and whomever in BC and Nfld to sign a hunred TILMAs, and appoint a hundred judges who will look the other way in the NEXT scandal to surface after Ledgegate. Our governments are not going to plan for us no more than they are already; if Canada fails by Quebec pulling the plug, all rationale for the "outer empire" to stick with Imperial Toronto is meaningless.

And by 1867 it was increaSingly clear that the new entity was not viable - too small, not enough population, not enough agricultural capacity, lots of resources but in places it cost a lot of subsidy to get at (and still does). If Canada didn't expand, it was fated to be dependent on the US, and would have been quickly absorbed.

Pity that. I mean, true, if ON/QC had been swallowed into the growing maw of the Union British tenure over British Columbia, Nfld and Rupert's Land might have been hard to maintain. Conceivably Britain, as a countermeasure, might have bolstered BC's population with immigration and a beefier military presence (which is what the Colony had wanted) and Riel's vision of a Catholic, French West might have inspired Quebeckers to migrate to Nord-Ouest, esp. if Quebec were abosrbed into the US.....

But, not being economically viable on its own, "Canada" (ON/QC establishments) swung a deal with London to takeover Rupert's Land for, what was it, $1 sq.mi. or less? And then of course had to send in troops to conquer it - despite ongoing mythologies ever since that Canada annexed its West peacefully "unlike those nasty SoBs south of the border".

Borrow my 'Rose Coloured Glasses'?

I disagree with you Murdock.

Head in the sand, at least the sand was in Quebec (I grew up there, even voted in the first referendum!)!

Would you like the rose coloured glasses back?

cont., (economic viability of the 51st State)

Ontario's still not economically viable; it's dependent on Ohio and Michigan for its auto parts trade and also on the US for its export markets for power, and its agricultural land (and growing season) are not enough to sustain its population (and shut down tobacco farming without legalizing hemp and that's how many acres of Ontario put out of production?).

The presumptions that (a) Ontario will run the show after Quebec is gone and (b) the other provinces have no choice in the matter are both dangerous; there will no be no show to run other than the name-caling circuses of the first few first ministers' conferences in the wake of Quebec pulling out....

And as I've said before, the US won't want to annex us; easier to have us as patsy client states than work out a new senate/congressional map for the nine-12 new states up here (it won't be one - the "51st State" is an Ontarian myth, based in the idea that all English Canadians are teh same and belong int he same province; like RoC being a "negative reflection" of Quebec that doesn't exist in its own right...

The US might take two states, though - Alberta because it really wants in, Ontario because it would be convenient for the auto industry and those big hydro dams. BC would be viewed as too politically volatile, I think, even though back in the '80s it and AB were the only provinces that State Department report suggested were worth acquiring (this in the context of a potential "police action" shoudl Canada's disorder slide into open unrest).

And of course if you have reason to send in the Marines for a police action, there's no need to annex the country you've done it to; you can simply govern as an occupying power and not leave until the place is being run the way you want. Worked for them in Germany, but not in Afghanistan or Iraq....

and...

And nn the other provinces, I meant to add; both for revenues as well as prestige, i.e. "look what we own even if we've never been there and don't care about it other than what we can extort/extract from it"

Is Raif the western

Is Raif the western equivalent to Rush Limbaugh spreading dissension? We once came to British Columbia in the 70s to commission a boat we had sold and were treated despicably by the residents of the island. Apparently we had the audacity to sell a boat to a BC native and because our company is located in Ontario that was something that wasn't allowable. I bet your pardon; last time I looked Canada went from the Pacific to the Atlantic.

It was an awful trip--we had never met with such hostility our entire lives.

Yes I am aware that Sir John A MacDonald and eastern politicians have not been equitable with the western provinces. They attempted to concentrate manufacturing in the east and treated the west despicably. The family compact was authoritarian bullies and Britain didn't give a rat’s ass that we were a colony. We are now a sovereign country able to change the deficiencies that govern us. Old grudges need to die so that can happen and that applies to Quebec. Louis Riel was hanged but that province still bears animosity toward the rest of Canada for it.

Yes Quebec has held the other provinces hostage and gets funds to prop up their socialistic needs and do not give English status in their province. But think about it...Quebec has made Canada what it is today. We have strong decentralized government because of their efforts to win concessions from the feds. The framers of our constitution wanted strong a strong federal government, but did not succeed thanks to the efforts of Quebec.

Let's put the past into focus and move on passing legislation that encourages Quebec to sign the Constitution without giving away the store. We are a nation of diverse needs and wants--let's assure that every citizen in every province feels they are a part.

I do not know what Canada's future is ...whether we will stay one nation or heaven forbid that it splits into tiny factions of its previous self--each one intent to enhance their small countries. The world is moving toward globalization and yet the provinces keep squabbling with each other. It's way past time to put the knives in the drawer and become a set along with the spoons and forks. Cliché time: "United we stand, divided we fall."

Who wrote "The long and

Who wrote "The long and short of it politically is that British Columbia, if it stays in Canada, must endure a system which will evermore and increasingly be dominated by Central Canada, where the prime minister must be French Canadian or at least speak French. As W.A.C. Bennett said so well thirty years ago, 'British Columbia will ever be a goblet to be drained by the East'.
British Columbians have the right, perhaps even the duty to future generations, to examine their place in a federation where the government not only doesn't give a damn about them but, much worse, has no reason to politically."?
Why, it was none other than Rafe Mair!

http://members.shaw.ca/davidinnorthburnaby/BC%20Separation%20and%20the%20Constitutional%20Veto.pdf

And, who wrote "Ontarians, generally speaking, see the country as an ongoing saga between Upper Canada and Lower Canada. In their view, solving that debate-or at least keeping it going without Lower Canada dropping out-is what Canada is all about ..."?
Well, again, it was Rafe Mair!

http://members.shaw.ca/david10/They%20Don't%20Really%20Give%20A%20Damn,%20Back%20There.pdf

So why, Rafe, are you using up bandwidth, airtime and newsprint wringing your hands about "Lower Canada dropping out"? What about our "duty to future generations"? Why not use the media available to you and whatever influence you may still have to take a leadership role in British Columbians examining our "place in a federation where the government not only doesn't give a damn about (us) but, much worse, has no reason to politically".?
Surely it wouldn't have anything to do with currying favor with the CBC.
Surely a lawyer turned politican would have more integrity, stronger convictions and more principle than that.
Right?

Wake me when it becomes interesting, again

April 27, 2007
PQ adjusts its course
Boisclair wants to give sovereignty a rest

Globe & Mail-RHÉAL SÉGUIN

QUEBEC -- It is time for the Parti Québécois to put sovereignty and a referendum to achieve it on the back burner and pursue Quebec's national affirmation within Canada, party leader André Boisclair told his caucus yesterday.

Well, actually.....

Rafe would make a great constitutional affairs point-man for the Green caucus, if he could ever be gotten to run for office again under the Green banner. And unlike other vocal Green supporters for the most part, he's electable.

Hint, hint, Rafe....

See previous post; and no, I'm not a recruiter for Green Party candidacies; I just think you're the most electable of their known public supporters/members, and also that they need some constitutional knowhow/realpolitik, jus as BC needs a voice in Ottawa.....

Too late for this election maybe - except there's Vancouver-Kingsway now that Potvin is out of the running. Tell me you wouldn't enjoy being able to lambaste David Emerson on the hustings. Just tell me, if you can; I still won't believe you.

Time to sharpen the tongueand gird your electoral loins, Rafe. Destiny calls.....

balance of power:

I dont like the soverigntist movement in quebec. Its selfish.

Quebecers have this misguided notion that they are the only canadians with a distinct language and culture. I grew up in northern alberta and knew many local people who had spoken french all thier lives and couldnt speak a drip of english. Nothing good in canada is gained in this. French Canada extends well out of quebec.

I dont like ontario. well, thats not true, i hate the parts with people in it. They shout about how population and influence and crap are centered in eastern ontario -- but ask nearly any non-ontariowegan what park of canada blows the most and they will tell you its eastern ontario and the GTA.

The most people in the country live in the crappiest part of the country and want to dictate how the not so crappy parts of canada run?

That seems arrogant to me...