The Neocons are in power here

... and they are going to be just as successful as they have been below the line.

The problem being that these fools do so much irrepairable damage by following their ideology - as opposed to pragmatism.

You're right, Ed, and they won't survive for the same reasons that brought on the collapse of the USSR. The enemy is neither left or right. It is authoritarianism.

R. Smiley

'John Malcolmson has

'John Malcolmson has analyzed public school finance for many years and works as a researcher with CUPE.' just ask any principal what they'd like to change about the system and they'll tell you they'd like to see the custodial services privatized b/c CUPE is sucking their budgets dry. i recently talked to one who said it takes 8 janitors to clean his school every night, and they refuse to empty more than one receptacle in each room, meaning either the garbage or the recycling gets disposed of. last summer it took 2 guys six weeks to paint the exterior doors of the school. he figured it should have taken one person about a week to do. managing the CUPE workers (secretaries excluded - they do a marvellous job) is one of the greatest challenges of a principal's job. thanks for your input CUPE guy.

I hope you realise each

I hope you realise each janitor cleans about the same area as 13 -2000 square foot homes in 8 hours. And if you look at the washrooms and hallways it takes time to clean those messes up.

Less funds every year

I don't claim to know holdbacks, but I do know that in Aboriginal targeted funding for school districts, that the rates received for each pupil have remained the same for the last 13 years. It doesn't seem that big of a deal until you consider that when those funds are spent on support staff and those support staff get pay raises, there is no additional funding. This year we're going to see a 6% increase in wages, so guess what? We have to cut back 6% of our staff.

Doesn't seem fair to the kids, but I know taxpayers should be happy.

mcdull; you may be right

mcdull; you may be right about the numbers, but i've been shown what 'cleaning' a room entails. if it's done right it takes about 10 minutes. it it's done wrong it takes about 30 seconds. no matter, according to the principals i've talked to these guys spend a hell of a lot of time in the staffroom.

I wonder how long it took

I wonder how long it took for the board of directors of CN to decide to pay the CEO
$13. million, while their junk equipment is crashing all over, killing people ? Or of the Home Depot to give theirs a $210. million handshake?

Of course, those obscenities do not come out of the public's pocket, but are "created" and "earned".

Ed Deak.

Mr. Deak

The CN guy deserves his. The guy oversees the best run railway in North America. They've had a couple of integration issues with BC Rail. However, you watch these guys in the future. CN is a model company.

The Home Depot guy made me sick. Absolute executive greed. Only cared about his own wallet. People are very angry about him and I presume he'll never get an executive job like that again. Though, what does it matter? He has hundreds of millions of dollars and rumour has it, he's looking for a cozy little getaway chalet on Big Lake.

Elliot

These guys don't care about productivity. This is the CUPE crowd. They ruined it for themselves. Got too greedy. CUPE is dying a slow death.

The bottom line is these guys are most concerned with this income gap. It really bothers them that a few people are profiting immensely from this great capitalistic system.

They just don't get it.

hope you're right about the

hope you're right about the slow death cap. they, along with all the other big public sector unions, kill the productivity of this country. to think what we could do with a fully privatized labour force.

Funding is not a problem.

It's not. We have more than enough money. Frankly, as a student, give me that 7,000$ and I'll use it more wisely than the board does in my district. The problem is there is far too much bureaucracy. As seen in America, where some students get over 10,000$ each, and still can't read or do simple math, more funding doesn't solve anything. It's all about how the money is used. Just like with transit, if we throw bags of cash at one huge project, you're going to see less return on that investment, rather than if you put in a bunch of smaller improvements.

For example, the janitors issue. Every school I've been to, it's lucky if there's two per secondary school. That's a lot of cleaning to do. The solution isn't to hire more workers, it's to have responsible staff and students, that don't make huge messes or just leave crap everywhere.

I want to know, how come, if every student gets 7,000$ per year, how come nothing during my four years in secondary has improved. The computers continue to get older and older, the books get more torn up. Where is all this money going?!?!?!

Dream Come True

Gee Elliot, what a dream you have. Honduran guest workers by the thousands at $5.00/hr, no safety inspections, deaths by the hundreds
The capitalist system is certainly one sick puppy.
John has just illustrated how $22million was taken out of the education system and its the janitors fault the education system is screwed. God help us all.

Anybody who comes to the

Anybody who comes to the Cariboo, praising the "model" CN could easily be lynched.

How about coming up ellie and cappy and shout it in the middle of Williams Lake?

Ed Deak.

i'd love to ed. it's

i'd love to ed. it's beautiful country. i spent a summer doing geological survey work between bill's pond, quesnel, nazco and tatla lake. nothing like it. i understand your meaning kootenay, but we're not in the honduras. when the economy is good and people are employed wages go up. why pay someone $22.00/hour to sweep up b/c they have a union card? let the market decide how much unskilled and uneducated labourers should make. might provide more incentive for people to improve themselves, thereby creating an improved society. might even be more effective than depending on the gov't or their union brethren to do everything for them.

janitors deserve a reasonable wage

I don't believe that $22/hr or $45,000/yr is too much to pay a janitor, especially in the light of Capitalism's remark that $13 million/year is not over-paying the CEO of CN. The CEO makes 300 times more than the average janitor makes (not all janitors receive $22/hour - many CUPE workers in my district make about $15 per hour). Personally, I believe the CEO could live just fine on 5.5 times what a janitor makes (after all, if he is so good with money, he ought to be able to do well with a quarter of a million for his own finances per year.) Then CN could take the other 12.75 million and fix the tracks or donate it to the schools to hire more janitors.

I admire janitors for the work they do. They handle large quantities of dangerous chemicals, and they deal with spilt blood and fecal matter on a daily basis. They scrape gum off of everything and dis-infect desks, table-tops, doorknobs and computer keyboards. They must pass a criminal records check, and they must be dependable.

With the funding cutbacks since this government originally took power, the schools in our district lost about 1/3 of their custodial, secretarial, and special ed. assistant staffs. I think these people have been mistreated and continue to be mistreated everytime someone suggests they are overpaid. ...SIG

All work has dignity

This kind of remark is a bizarre thing for anyone to say:

Statistics Canada asserts that this country only needs 16% of its work force with a college or university education.

To dismiss the other 84% as if they were nothing better than the pawns of the market is not only unfair, it's undemocratic and takes us back to the bad old days.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/14/business/14lend.web.html?_r=1&ref=business&oref=slogin

This story from the business pages of the New York Times describes just one aspect of where this insane economy may well be headed.

Time to recognize that the whole society has an interest in all workers being decently paid, decently housed and treated like valuable human beings. In the end, the captains of industry and investment bankers may not be much use if and when things fall apart.

When no one picks up the garbage, the civic worker is the most important cog in any city. Substitute, mutatis mutandis for all other segments of an integrated society and you should begin to see what's wrong with the way things are currently trending - and have been - for the past 30 - 40 years.

I has to stop and now.

School Funding

It is clear to me that part of the issue is a failure of both the government and the unions involved to properly balance available funds for education.

The amount of per pupil dollars allocated should be sufficient to provide an above average K-12 education.

The Unions seem to demand wages and benefit increases without any consideration of the effect to education delivery. This is certainly true of the BCTF. CUPE is likely just as guilty. Of course, the government has to fund these labour agreements.

There is only so much money available to fund government programs, unless of course you tax the hell out of the population. (which of course the NDP and the Left want to do).

What we need is balance.

In my view, the delivery of education should be paramount, and indeed staff funding should reflect a reasonable amount, but not to the point where such damages the system.

It is also clear that too much administration is involved in the education system. I am not a fan of the current School District system whose kingdoms represent way too much duplication of effort and expenditures. Perhaps more of the SDs should be amalgamated or at lease some elements centralized to reduce expenditures.

Special Needs kids consume huge dollars and a review of this arena needs to be initiated.

Bottomline, where does the money come from; you the taxpayer.

Name them, Elliot

Elliot, you are continually claiming inside information about every single area under discussion in these articles here. You know what any principal wants, every administrator in every field seemingly, and they all always agree wholeheartedly with your ideological convictions.

I find it all too much to really swallow, Elliot. Please name the principal you are quoting. The one who gave you this remarkable tour and briefing, and explain how he came to be giving you so much valuable time.

Surely there is no confidentiality issue involved in such a situation. So name your source, unless of course you're making it all up, as I am coming to suspect.

If we still had the same

If we still had the same balance between wages and the skyrocketing costs of living, we had 40 years ago, those $22./hr janitors would be now paid about $50 to 60/hr.

Look up the figures before writing nonsense about the "markets". The markets are dead, killed by the collectivized politbureaus of bolshevik capitalists, who now dictate the economy and steal billions from our pockets.

Thusday is our biweekly shopping day and we'll find a number of prices higher than 2 weeks ago, yet the idiots of the Bank of Canada and Statscan say we have an annual 2% inflation rate.

We bought our first house in Vancouver for about $6,000. now the same would be about half million.

Ed Deak.

'Please name the principal

'Please name the principal you are quoting.' i've known several over the years bailey, but there is a confidentiality issue. do you truly believe that these unions aren't capable of being vindictive? in some school districts cupe and the local teacher's association have a very influential say in who is hired into admin and who is promoted as well.

If we still had the same

If we did not have socialist special interest NGO parasites and unions in competitiion on who can get the biggest paycheck from the taxpayer things would be a lot better.

Cynical numbers

I've reread the article three times now trying to figure out what the latest disappearing act means in terms of the numbers and agenda/s. Having witnessed many cases of "now you see it, now you don't" in B.C.'s world of educational and health finance over the past six years, I can only assume that this latest move is another example of the Campbell governments tendency to assign blame for mismanagement to the underling bureaucracies which serve or occasionally buck them - in this case, once again, school boards.

Downloading is what it seems to be about. Make it look like more money, distribute less, and ask the boards to find "efficiencies" to make what are ultimately smaller amounts go further. Sort of like the Mennonite cookbook: More with Less. The appearance of increased cash, as Mr. Malcolmson suggests, is maintained via the "flowthrough" amount whereby government pays only for what it must. The rest, including the real costs of Bill 33, will be downloaded.

Boards can certainly find "efficiencies" where necessary. They find them by losing janitors, rerouting buses, and not quite providing what contracts say they must in terms of class sizes or support for students. They do not often find them in cutting their own administrative numbers - and I am not necessarily suggesting that they should. It all manages, however, to maintain a hostile environment for those who work in it. Fight for the pie - and please, for God's sake, do your fighting in public so the government can step in with an order and look like God at least twice a year.

When putting myself to sleep with utopian fantasies at night, I like to imagine a government that sees the potential for public education to change the world for the better.

When waking up, I remember they need new stadiums before 2010.

As to the vindictive factor

I don't think anecdotal evidence of one principal - who may also be equally capable of vindictiveness (I've had some considerable experience with principals too) - means very much.

Especially since, I think lots of equally anecdotal evidence can be adduced to the contrary. That is, that custodial professionals do a difficult and often thankless job very efficiently and well and to the complete satisfaction of the principals and other staff members in their schools.

First thing I'd like to see happen is the end to public financing of private schools...many of which are operated as businesses and not just educational institutions.

That money ought to go back into the public system where it belongs. As to the proper utilization of tax money, I don’t think the salaries paid to school custodians is a significant factor in the overall state of the budget in this province. On the contrary, I think the taxpayer might want to look at how many extra custodians could be paid each year for the salaries of this government’s Order in Council communications consultants. I’d suggest it is ‘that’ crew (among others) who aren’t very good value for the tax dollar.

Non Sequitur

ssgreen said, "If we did not have socialist special interest NGO parasites and unions in competitiion on who can get the biggest paycheck from the taxpayer things would be a lot better."

If this were the case, then we would have no public school system and if you wanted your children to have a good education,then you would pay much, much more.

Carol Taylor the model for "The Political Zoology Field Guide - The Couching Tiger (Perpetuous Victims)" from the Non Sequitur cartoon series by Wiley Miller.
The Identifying Characteristics are, " The innocent, kitten-like apperance is the most effective camouflag3e for this malvolent ambush predator. It has the uncanny ability to avoid scrutiny and aggressively hunt its prey by couching every situation to appear that the tiiiger is the victim. It will continue playing the victim role while devouring its prey.
Habitat: Deep inside partisan jungle
Natural Enemy: Harsh Daylight."

And on another note, Premier Campbell has finally found a road trip for this session. He is going to California to see Arnold. Why does he miss so much time away from the legislature? Is he afraid to be publicly questioned?

Very apt

That was a very apt description of Carole Taylor, North of Hope. Her previous employees at CBC would no doubt second it.

Principals who fear their janitors

Elliot. I'm sorry you think the janitors you hope to impoverish might be vindictive.

It's just that the information this person gave you is so remarkable and so unlikely.

For example, $22. an hour for cleaners? The cleaners in other unions tend to make $17.10 to $18.65 for their work. $22 seems to be a generic figure you quote when you want to imply that no worker but you or those you crave to emulate of course are worthy of their wage.

Then there's the fact that these principals who agree so readily with your economic theories and opinions, despite presumably being educated people, seem never to have read social theories or economic theory that holds that jurisdictions prosper primarily by replacing imports with local products and services. In other words, by adding value locally to whatever exports the community lives off. Making our own tables and trains rather than selling China wood and coal then buying their tables and trains.

Thus families make more instead of less and less. The tax base rises from real advances as wages and services increase, rather than from selling off the future, and all fixed communities from neighbourhoods to nation-states become more self sufficient and prosperous.

Seems to me that at least a principal or two among your set ("any principal") might be expected to understand that assumptions must be tested, especially basic assumptions.

The more you believe something is self evident, the less likely you are to ever discover that it's hooey.

I believe your basic assumptions are false, and I believe that you got them from people who intended that you would never question them seriously.

And I believe that you cannot name your principal because your principal is a lie. You just thought that because you must be right about your ideological beliefs, that others obviously would never question them any more than you do.

'And I believe that you

'And I believe that you cannot name your principal because your principal is a lie.' am i supposed to engage you in debate after that accusation? this is why you lefties are so out of touch. you dismiss everything that you don't want to believe as a falsehood. talk to some principals yourself then bailey, and i guarantee that you'll hear the same accusations. six weeks to paint exterior doors. it's a true story. coffee breaks all day long. par for the course with public sector labour unions. is this news to you bailey?

Elliot and Capitalism dream on!

I guess they have not read the other Tyee item Divide, we're falling. Worse is that they see everyone as beneath them so a decent living wage for anyone except them is just too much to bear. It reminds me of the old joke about the parts of the body arguing which was the most important. That was until the anal sphincter proved a point.

There was even an MLA who was once quoted as calling the HEU over paid toilet cleaners. I guess cleanliness at a hospital is not as important as the doctor. It really makes you wonder about people who continually look down on those whose exploited sweat and labour built their lofty perch.

the above is what they say

the above is what they say when they have nothing to say. just more blather that doesn't really mean anything. easy to reproduce. one big cliche. makes me wonder how many of these bleeding hearts actually does anything constructive in their communities.

Elliot that's simply not true

You can't expect anecdotal evidence to mean something if you're going to advance it, flapping it like a matador's cape and then withdraw it for such a specious reason as alleged confidentiality. I don't think it is necessary to name the person involved to prove his or her bona fides.

I posted above that I have talked to many principals over the years and that not one of them ever mentioned anything about their custodial staff - except that they were valued parts of the school team.

That's also been my personal experience. When I take kids into the schools where we use gym space for indoor soccer training the custodial staff is extremely cooperative and helpful.

Once again you backslide into ad hominem and pointlessly personal slander. Now directed at Bailey. Why do you do this?

The simple fact that you talked to one principal who reinforced what seems to be a universal prejudice you hold against ANY union member seems to say more, forgive me, about you than it does about the schools in this province.

did you say something g?

did you say something g?

Debate?

It's not news, Elliot. It's a lie. A series of lies, actually.

I didn't ask how many you know, I asked who you were quoting.

Clearly, your principal is a lie, based on your assumption that false evidence can't be refuted. Not true, of course.

Let's just test that, Elliot.

Hold your breath for thirty seconds. You can do that, it's not very long. While you're doing that imagine yourself entering a classroom with thirty-eight desks in it and sweeping the floor and emptying one can of garbage.

Hell, let's go whole hog and do the test right. Hold your breath for the whole ten minutes and imagine yourself doing the blackboard too.

No cheating, now, Elliot. No breathing for ten minutes.

You made it up. Nobody told you any of that. Not only not true, it's not even possible. It's a big fat lie, isn't it?

You claim these cleaners remarkably set their own job descriptions, refusing to empty more than one can of garbage. They do this without getting fired, though refusal to do your job is grounds for discipline and dismissal in every collective agreement I ever read, except on safety grounds.

The principal tell you that? I can see why this person would be afraid to let the board know he can't direct the janitor to clean. As to painters, school boards have no staff to paint anything. They contract it out. Have done for years. These painters would not be CUPE members, probably non-union. If they really took

Their contract, calculated on hours alone, would probably not have been very profitable. You made this one up too, didn't you. You could not know anything about their coffee schedule unless you were one of them.

It's not a "true story". It's not "news to you", or anybody else. It just a bunch of stuff you made up because your premises are false, so your arguments in support must also be false. Without true arguments, all you have left are these made up ones.

You could prove me wrong by naming your source, and then we could ask directly why his cleaners frighten him so much.

While we're here, let's test the $22 claim too. Any CUPE people here who know what janitors are paid exactly?

everything i said is true

everything i said is true bailey. i've explained why i can't give you names but you refuse to believe that too. not much i can do about that short of giving you the names, which i will not do b/c i don't trust the leadership of these unions. besides, it's not at all uncommon for unionized workers to be less productive that privatized workers. if you don't believe that you're either ignorant or naive. speaking of which, you sound an awful lot like gwest/alcibiades/?/?/?. have we found the sixth link?

Custodians

Elliot most rooms have 2 or 3 garbage cans.The $19 an hour seems to be average. Less than some private companies more than others. I have yet to make an appointment with a prncipal who is around the school after 430 pm. so how does he know what the janitors doing.

more specious statements El

Not uncommon according to whom? Moreover, where did this mythical comparison take place? I don't think you'd even get Phil Hochstein to agree with that statement.

and this:

Who cares? This is a red herring, long dead and very smelly. And now it’s 'more than one union' – where earlier it was only CUPE. What exactly was it about what you’re alleging that is actually true?

Further, it has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. You are, in the absence of any actual evidence, reverting to your usual nonsensical line of anti-union prejudice.

I am beginning to understand your usual ad hominem modus operandi. You seem to actually HAVE NOTHING WHATEVER OF ANY RELEVANCE TO SAY.

Furthermore, I'm looking into your initial allegations and I'll report back about whether or not even the least offensive of your allegations have any credence.

Stay tuned.

Elliott - are you for real?

God you're an idiot, elliott, without the sense to know when you've bombed out.

My brother-in-law really is a VP in Maple Ridge. Just for kicks, I called him tonight about this thread, had a good laugh, and sat down to scribe a few thoughts.

Unfortunately, I'm too late. Bailey seems to have taken you apart into your constituent teeny little balls of bullshit without even breathing hard. But I can add one thing - Maple Ridge's custodial staff are paid $18.44 an hour, and anybody can look up a large number of union contracts whenever they want at the Labour Relations Board website.

http://www.lrb.bc.ca/cas/WSG17.pdf and see p. 56

I'm trying out a few ad hominem attacks on you because you've been so reprehensibly stupid for so long, and it's time to have you see the light. Everybody else - whether "leftie" or "rightie" or even neo-con - sees what an ignorant fucktard you are, and it's really unfortunate you haven't the eyes to see what's so apparent to everyone else.

Incidentally, the private contractors for hospitals are having real trouble keeping bodies on the other end of the brooms at $10.60 an hour, and some of the more experienced ones I know in one hospital have already done an end run around their collective agreement and been bumped up to $12.45 and $13.10 an hour. The rest quit and found more suitable and/or higher-paying work elsewhere. The private contractors are scarcely making money, because they had to guarantee the health authorities savings.

So if this language doesn't get through to you, then it's obvious nothing will. You are destined to remain as ignorant as those uncouth of whom Tennyson said,
"...Where blind and naked Ignorance
Delivers brawling judgements, unashamed
On all things all day long."

janitor pay - about $22 per hour

I just looked up janitor pay in our district. Remember this day everyone - Elliot was right. The base janitor pay is $21.73 per hour and it goes up to $22+ if that person drives a bus for some hours and then does janitor duties to get his/her 40 hours in.

This is beside the point of the topic of the article. The fact is, the government is underfunding education and they are claiming they are paying more into it. Teachers and CUPE workers had forgone wage increases for years to support inclusion. This government pulls the structure that supports inclusion apart (by changing classification systems and targeted funding), picks fights with teachers, does not follow through with class-size and composition agreements. The Ministry removed the targeted funding and then districts increased work-loads so much that teachers can't be bothered to identify students who will not bring in more funding. It just means increased workload for no benifit for individual school funding. The kid is still special needs; it is just too onerous to jump all of the formal individual plan hoops. Teachers resort to informal plans that often do the job for the child in the moment because they are over-worked with more accountability and less actual time to get the job done. When these children change schools (which they often do) the informal plans do not follow them, and the new school wonders what was going on... As lots of older experienced staff is retiring, it is too much for new teachers to grasp in the first few years of their careers - kids fall through the cracks, and the administrators are not always trying to catch them. If, however, we were to return to targeted funding for the high incidence groups, then the administrators would want every one of these children found - with formal IEPs outlining all goals/conditions of learning in place for these learners. They would be screaming at the boards to release the funds to cover the needs of the children as identified.

sharing...

which district?

58

sd #58 nicola-similkameen

Elliott right about one thing.

I only said he was correct about one thing. This is the first time I have found him to be right about anything; it is a huge improvement, none-the-less.

He is dead wrong about these people being over-paid. They deserve to make a reasonable living like everyone else.

Note SD58 is a very small district that must compete with lumber mills and mines for able-bodied people that can do these custodial jobs effectively.

A stopped clock...

...is right twice a day. Must be quittin' time for elliott...

You can't argue like that with Elliott or Maestro, and even Cappy doesn't buy that. You're going to have to poke them in the eye with a sharp stick - like the fact that without the consumption power of the average working stiff - union or not - the big engine of business won't run, and they don't get to live off profits, capital gains, dividends or interest.

It will take a very long time for them to figure out that all parts of society are interdependent. They think they got to where they are solely on their own "hard work"...

BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!

We've lost a lot of custodians/engineers

Forget the fact that most "janitors" in Vancouver have to be ticketed to operate the ancient boilers found in almost every school, they are still underpaid. The ones at my school, all two of them, run around trying to get to all the jobs they need to do. Forget them getting to everything if some kid pukes in a washroom. A lot of them have left to work in the trades anyways. Why work for $20 and hour when you can get $80 as a plumber.
It tells you a lot about Elliot that this is the best argument he can make against the public school system. Believe me, working as a janitor in a school is not the way to easy street.

GW

That would require that the 50%-65% of private school cost that parents to pay to come out of our taxes. Are you willing to support that expense for 65,000 students?

What?

NLN, if we STOP financing private schools it means our tax money can be put to other uses. The parents of kids who don't want to send their kids to public school would have to pony up the rest themselves. I would think you'd be in favour of that.

nice post zalm. real

nice post zalm. real classy. interesting to see that you guys get angriest when you're wrong. it's all true. CUPE custodial staff are sucking the budgets dry. blather in denial all you want but it's true. taxpayers are footing the bill and the local teacher's associations are complicit in MOST districts b/c they're in bed with each other. btw; did you invent the work 'fucktard', and why haven't your lefty freak buddies complained about that one. have a nice life moron.

Frank

Clearly you don’t understand the funding formula or its implications. If the 65,000 kids currently in the private system all switched over to the public system it would add about $300 million per year to the cost of the public system. That money would come out of general revenue, not the individual parents.

Private schools aren’t necessarily more expensive to run than public schools, in fact, most of them compromise their program offers to contain costs.

these guys hate any private

these guys hate any private system b/c they think it wreaks of class warfare. they're the freaks that glen clark was catering to when his marxist buddy maureen maloney advised him to tax the hell out of everything. wonder what jimmy's right hand boy thinks of that plan now?

Baloney

Still the insults and not a bit of proof - despite having several people post information that shows YOU'RE the one who's playing games.

You are right about one thing. If the people who think the upper crust always gets to write the rules in a democracy, your attitude will eventually lead to real class warfare. It has happened before and it'll happen again.

From the looks of your posts over the last year, El, I don't think you'll be in the brains trust either.

Doesn't have to be that way. But if it happens, it won't be the progressives who end up shouldering the blame. It'll be people who pretend that scapegoating has anything to do with real community building and a culture of fairness from and toward ALL.

Oh, and I’d be more than happy if all the parents whose kids are now going to private schools returned to the public system. Bring it on.

did you say something

did you say something gwest/alcibiades/?/?/??.

Don't understand

What I understand NLN is you are promoting taxpayer money going to private schools.

The public schools exist whether the private kids show up or not. And they're not all concentrated in some pocket somewhere. Going from 24 to 25 or 26 kids in a class doesn't mean a new janitor or teacher or anyone else is going to be hired nor would it entail the building of a new school.

So it still boils down to the fact you're advocating public money going to private companies.

Classy

Now that is a classy post. And to think you were offended by the word "fucktard".

Your net is still empty Elliot

And rapidly filling with pucks.

Funny how that works.

Get back in the game and provide some evidence that you still have a team behind you. I understand the capo di tutti capo has left the Legislature - where he might actually have to answer a question - and retreated to California to spend some quality time with a weightlifter, and work on his tan, no doubt.

So far, not a hint of a case for your point of view. Just more personal insults - as Frank posts back at you (using a time-honoured passing play from the left wing) just above.

did you say something

did you say something gwest/alcibiades/?/?/??.

Back to normal

I was afraid it wouldn't last.

Guess I have to get out the felt pen again and underline the contributions of the Tyee's favourite graffito artist.

Still nothing but ad hominem and vile vituperation.

Private vs. Public

"Clearly you don’t understand the funding formula or its implications. If the 65,000 kids currently in the private system all switched over to the public system it would add about $300 million per year to the cost of the public system."

If you ended the public funding of private schools, do you really think that all those children would flood the public schools? More reasonably, most parents would choose to pay out the extra $3000 or so to keep sending their kid to private school. Somehow, I don't think the elite private schools would even hiccup. Some of the poorer religious schools may be in trouble, but isn't that why they pass out the collection plate?

Interestingly enough, I worked as a janitor in a private corporation 13 or 14 years ago right after finishing university. I was paid over $18/hour then! I could finish the work in half the time that they gave me. There is no way that I could have done that in a school. There is simply too much to do. Besides, all custodial tasks in schools have been audited. They know how long it should take you to do anything. If anything, there aren't enough people doing the work now.

Frank

It's my understanding that most of them are non profits, but I guess that difference doesn't mean anything to you......

NLN - please see Chris H's post above

You're right.

It doesn't make any difference - some of them, private schools, are also in the process of making profits....None should receive any public funding, in my view. Once all the problems of the public, taxpayer supported system have been addressed, come speak to me then. Oh, and one further codicil, the problems of the youth and child protection branch also need addressing before any money goes to ANY private school. Mr Campbell has helped his friends far too often and far too lavishly already. Time for a little accountability and fiscal discipline.
OK!

See this for further information:
http://www.povnet.org/downloads/Civil_and_Political_Rights_in_BC_2005.pdf

Pants on fire

I miss Coyote. He had the patience for this nonsense. That guy could discourage this sort of empty foolishness with just the right amount of clear speech. Not enough to disable them, in case they ever did accidentally come up with an interesting point for discussion, but enough to make them wary of this constant muling and puking all over every thread.

I don't. I find analyzing the fictional assertions of these vacant lackwit porkchops makes me feel slightly soiled, and reluctant to contribute at all.

They're just meat for whatever corporate predator gets to them first, and if they ever open their eyes, it will only be to see that they're done, and it's feeding time in the jungle.

This junkyard needs it's dog back.

Snippy

I assume from your defensiveness that you or your kids went to private school?

Don't get all bitchy.

He's Right

"it's not at all uncommon for unionized workers to be less productive that privatized workers."

As a consultant, I used to see just how unproductive unions used to be. They made their own bed.

G, you raise some ok points but you are moving off topic. We are not talking about what is right and what is wrong. We are talking fact. The fact is unions are unproductive, and when you are competing with a non union shop - you are going to lose.

The two best examples are WestJet and Toyota. Go pull up a map of Toyota's production plants in the USA and Canada. Guess what - Toyota doesn't set-up shop in states unless they are "right to work" - other than California - two of its first plants. They have plants in Kentucky, Texas, Indiana and West Virgina - NOT Illinois or Michigan....why??? Labour laws!!

The second question is Private vs. Public schools. I would NEVER send my kids to private school because I believe my kids deserve a sense of reality. However, per student funding is higher at public schools than private schools and why? Firstly, fundraising. Secondly - wages. Teachers are paid less, but more importantly support staff is paid less. Its not that wages are less, it is just that there are fewer of them. They hire a Chartered Accountant as their "Director of Finance" and a couple of loyal and hard working staff. Very proficient people.

So, a public school costs as much to operate as a private school when you consider tuition and government subsidies - yet a private school has smaller class sizes and always is amoung the top of the best rated schools!!

Why???? Wasted funds in the public sector. I believe teachers should be paid well. They are well trained, well groomed professionals. They get 70K/year!!! C'mon - that is nothing for their education.....

That being said, they've doomed themselves....benefits, demands, etc. etc. Very interesting stuff.

Thanks cappy - they were all good points

Talk to Phil Hochstein. Last time I heard Jim Sinclair and him on the air he had nothing but praise for the efficiency knowledge and unsurpassed productivity of the BC union worker. I was shocked. When the corporate barons of this province want something done properly and right, on schedule and on budget, they know that union contractors are the only way to go.

As a matter of fact, most of the defective construction in the leaky condo debacle was done by private nail-pounders who were used to try and squeeze a penny. Most of those fly-by nighters were long gone when the bills came due.
Some productivity.

As for Chartered accountants, and especially ones from Authur AndersEn and Accenture, their record isn't even worth bringing up. CAs love the limelight though.

And as for professionals, well, let's use you as an example. You've proved to be nothing but a joke on every single subject you've brought up here from economics to taxation to the impact of withholding taxes - not to mention corporate honesty.

I've worked with a lot of folks who went to high-rent private schools - I'll tell ya a secret, I'm one myself - and I almost always find them to be lazy entitled twits who don't know a thing about scarifice or hard work. They can produce the odd sports star and they generally have a good rugby team - as Gerhardius will attest - at least some of the time.

The best provincial scholars I've run into have none of the entitlement shackles of private school bullies - but they do have some compassion and understanding for their fellow man. Something you neocons LOST somewhere along the road. In fact a lot of them come from families where the language spoken in the home isn't either of Canada's official ones.

Lots of teachers are worth way more than 70G a year. The people who are making more than they’re worth, and not paying an appropriate tax on the earnings, don’t spend their working lives in rooms and corridors nicely cleaned by CUPE.

I hope you're keeping an eye on the bond market; things are not looking so rosy any more.

Principles

elliot I think you are full of bs, still trying to bully people who do not agree with you!

I have been working on a non-union contractor site and believe me the non-union guys are not as productive as building trades, they are getting screwed and they know it, nobody moves nobody gets hurt.

We all know how compo is anti worker under el gordo. The edmonton sun a very right wing rag ran a series on how compo managers are getting bonuses for screwing disabled workers out of their benefits!

Teachers are at least doing

Teachers are at least doing something productive unlike the law profession, 70k is not a lot of money for the people we are trusting to educate our children.

I am very grateful my kids are not being exposed to the likes of lawyers.

As for West Jet

I guess you count larceny and an out-of-court settlement with Air Canada as nothing more than a cost of doing business eh?

All part of the program they teach at Arthur AndersEn is it?

The glow is off the pumpkin at West Jet - they aren't even cheaper than Air Canada any more, in fact the reverse is often the case and - well - I actually hate the leather seats too. And I'm sick of having to change planes at Edmonton or Calgary or Kelowna every time I fly anywhere in western Canada.

And that hokey western humour....they need some new jokes as well as a reworked corporate mantra - you know that line about being an owner. It's getting stale. Personally, I prefer independent professionals to owners piloting the planes I ride in. I think the temptation to cut costs in some industries is just too damn risky.

Coyote

What happened with coyote? I have been working out of province for most of last year.

Long story ursus

You can get updated here:

http://thetyee.ca/Books/2007/01/31/Solidarity/

You need to read the comments thread, skim down about 1/8 of the way and start reading.

westjet

You are right about westjet, hokey to say the least. Haven't flown with westjet for over a year because the service with aircanada is usually quicker classier and cheaper, go figure.

Most of the east coasters on the last job were waiting several days for their luggage to catch up to them after the christmas break, westjet really screwed that one up, they also had a big layover in calgary.

Funding....remember?

How we got sidetracked onto following Elliot the Iddiot's vacant lackwit ruminations (thanks for the turn of phrase Bailey!) I don't know. This was about funding.

I'm given to understand from a friend in one school district up north, that the ministry has signed an agreement with support workers (aides, admin staff, janitors etc.) with a fixed cost, but has not fully funded this agreement, shorting this district by something like 9% or $350,000. So what good is that?

That was done in hospitals as well - most did not receive the funding for the signing bonuses that the HEABC negotiated on behalf of the facilities until 6 months after the contracts were signed. That means all these facilities were busy kiting cheques to keep themselves afloat until the government finally got around to paying the bill it owed, and then even shorted them on the total.

In the case of the care home I help oversee, we were short 11% or $42,000, which we then had to make up out of other expenses. We ended up delaying replacement of our 21-year-old roof for a year and are making plans to de-hire either one music therapist or one rec worker to make up for the loss, because a leaky roof just won't go away, and we're not sure if we can survive another unexpected cost.

Pah. Those who think private enterprise has it all over the public sector obviously never tried running or overseeing either institution. They face exactly the same difficulties in funding and operating, with two exceptions: the public sector can't go to the market for equity financing, and the public sector can't advertise for market share.

Sorry, you are wrong.

"However, per student funding is higher at public schools than private schools and why?"

No. Per student funding is way higher at most private schools. There may be a few, older religious schools that could make that claim, but look at at a school like Mulgrave. There tuition is $10k or more and the parents have to put down a $25K bond to help with capital costs. That is much more expensive. The new schools that are setting up are generally getting help for multinationals that are increasing the startup. Additionally, teacher turnover is very bad at most private schools as pretty much every teacher that graduates wants a job in the public school system.

Frank

So what is more offensive to you, that I can afford to send my kids to private school, or that because I did, I have specific knowledge of the topic that you lack? Bitchy indeed…….

hey zalm; do you ever

hey zalm; do you ever wonder why no one ever responds to your posts, except maybe to correct you. have a nice life moron.

Bitchy

NLN, my quarrel was with your tone. Past discussions on here suggest I'm not the one bad at math.

My kids go to public school and your's don't. I don't claim that means you can't comment on a topic about public school funding.

Anyway, so you support gov't subsidy of private schools.

elliot

nice comment elliot, calling someone a moron is really productive would you do that to their face, I doubt it.

NLN

And where exactly did you bring that "specific knowledge" to our attention.

Sorry, but I missed it.

I think it's fine that you send your kids wherever you want. On your own tab.

Just not to private schools partially financed by my taxes. There are too many important places for every tax dollar now.

More of the same El!

writes Elliot.

Still playing with your goalie on the bench?

Mark up another own goal dude, I thought there was some momentary indication that you had started to grow up. Zalm took you apart - like every one else on this board does every time you post nonsense like that "thing" I just quoted.

You must have a masochistic streak.

oh my

lolol It's been a tad difficult to stay on topic here, hasn't it?

Couple of points ...

I don't make $70k a year. Which district does? I'm applying out and would like to apply to there :-)

School custodians work very hard. In my district, when they are away, there is no replacement hired. There has been a noticeable difference in the cleanliness in our school over the years. This is not because our custodians are lazy but because the custodial time for our school has been cut in half. Custodians and maintenance staff were cut years ago in the Board's (then chaired by Ms. Bond) attempt to keep cuts away from the classroom.

I guess because we got a raise after all those years we are to be considered greedy. How about the many raises the government has given itself since 2001? I'm not sure why people are considering the signing bonuses in the funding formula. When I met with Pat Bell he told me that there was money set aside for the signing bonuses months before our contract was settled. I do know it took the government a long time to dole out that cash though.

The waste in public education comes from upper management. It has nothing to do with unions. My district has invented a few positions at the Board Office for administrators. These are positions filled by Principals whose schools have been closed. One is in charge of administering the BCiSIS fiasco, another is in charge of technology and luring international students to our districts and so on. The logic used by senior admin. was that there would eventually be a Principals shortage and they wanted to keep these people on hand. Funny, but when some Principals moved and/or retired over the Christmas holidays, they filled those positions by bringing some administrators back from retirement and hiring teachers to take Principal positions. But I guess somehow someone will find a reason to blame the BCTF or CUPE for that???

Now Recess is over and it's time to go back to assessing students for the District's accountability plan ... I mean School Plan for Success.

did you say something

did you say something gwest/alcibiades/?/?/??

nice to see you're up on

nice to see you're up on your research sped. i guess you're so overworked you don't have much time to look at your salary grid. ALL teachers in the province with a master's or cat5+ make at least $70k/year. with a cat5 they make $65. good teachers are underpaid, bad teachers are overpaid. most are good, but the weakness in our system is that the union makes it almost impossible to fire bad teachers.

G West

It looks like you spend a half hour arguing with me, but you actually agreed.

I said a) teachers are underpaid, i'd like to see them paid more. however, in order to achieve this, they, like everybody in this work world have to be judged on performance. some teachers are better than others, simple.

b) I said i'd never send my kids to private school. they are doing quite fine in the public system. again, we agree.

c) Don't you worry, G, about my finances! I am very familiar with bond and equity markets, commodities, real estate and private business. I'm well diversified and have a hand in each.

Personally, I'm waiting for it all to fall to s*it. I loved last week. Everybody was losing money on the market, I was using it as a buying opportunity. I'm waiting for 2007-2008 when mortages will be re-financed at a much higher rate! I'm can't wait for all these defaults. I've built up a little reserve to buy properties on the cheap. Patience, G. Instead of cash, hold gold.

It all makes sense

It doesn't surprise me G that you were a little rich private school kid. Only a sheltered existence, much like the one you've lived, could allow you to have such ideological and utopian viewpoints. Everything handed to you on a silver platter.

Au contraire, not little, certainly not rich

And far from sheltered.

Try being a poor country kid at an elite school on a hardship academic scholarship whose circumstances all the rich kids actually know about. Convinced me in an awful hurry that the last thing I ever wanted to aspire to is the hollowness, stupidity and dishonesty of the wealthy.

Such lessons learned young tend to stick with you and, from my experience ever since I'm absolutely convinced my decision then was the correct one.

You learn pretty fast what character is all about and who your real friends are.

The folks with no character were the ones that were ideological and they had the silver platters and the fancy cars too.

Nice to know where you came from - not that I ever wondered.

I'm pleased you noticed though, just another opportunity to demonstrate an adage of Susan Swan's. You can figure that one out for yourself smart guy. You’re almost as easy to score on as Elliot is.

Vultures will feed afterwards...

Remember it's the big dogs who eat first. When the bubble bursts you'll get yours after the best has been cultivated by the priveledged. You're just a whore/vulture for what's left behind. Perhaps if you make enough you can join your hero's behind the gated secure communities. But even they have standards... I doubt vultures are welcome.

GW

Garffy, take a minute, tell me all you know.....

You'll be happy to hear that my kids are in public school fully financed by your taxes.

hey g/alcibiades/?/?/?; did

hey g/alcibiades/?/?/?; did they teach you to lie there?

Elliot

G doesn't know his arse from a hole in the wall. He went to private school, has lived on the island his entire life, has never had kids. The guy is morfified by responsibility, because he hasn't lived a real life.

It all makes sense. He hasn't seen what we've seen. We've made the most of our opportunities, he hasn't.

NLN

"So what is more offensive to you, that I can afford to send my kids to private school, or that because I did, I have specific knowledge of the topic that you lack? Bitchy indeed……."

Is what you wrote. Whether you can or can't, do or don't is of no consequence.

I don't object to private schools per se and never said I did. I only object to people like you who complain about the excessive size of the $34 billion Provincial budget and then think that spending tax dollars on such matters of personal choice is appropriate.

You may not think that's hypocritical. I think it could go into the Canadian Oxford Dictionary as an example of the phenomenon.

Cappy

So nice to see that you and Elliot have found each other. I see your frustration at never being able to sustain a single one of your arguments has gotten the better of your resolve to desist from childish attacks and name calling.

The two of you can continue firing pucks at the same empty net all day long as far as I'm concerned.

Just more grist for the mill. The absence of anything substantive to throw at me never seems to be much problem as long as there's some mud at hand.

did you say something

did you say something multiple alias man?

Opportunities...HA!

Capitalists learn to exploit, they don't create opportunities. Then run plays from the text book written by the schools that support these fraudulent economic systems. I thought the height of arrogance used to be when man thought he could manage nature. Now I see the bar has been surpassed by these vultures who steal wealth and call it creation. They saw an opportunity and made good! Theft, exploitation and fraud. Then they call out from their ivory tower, secure gated community that anyone can do it, just get off your butt and go do it. Well some of us won't be whores to wealth. Some of us won't use others to get ahead. We are the people of the Dolphin! We choose community over individual....

How's that G? Big enough target for them?

I don't object to private

I don't object to private schools per se and never said I did. I only object to people like you who complain about the excessive size of the $34 billion Provincial budget and then think that spending tax dollars on such matters of personal choice is appropriate. GW

No need to run for the dictionary. That private schools are able to save taxpayers about $300 million dollars per while offering a range of choice to those that have earned the right doesn’t seem inappropriate to me.

As for the size of the budget, that spending has gone from about $22B in 2000 to over $34B today, and the only people that seem to be better off are those at the top of the income scale suggests that increased spending isn’t providing the intended benefits. Taxes sure are going up tho’…..

more from Elliot and another own goal

In the absence of any knowledge or insight, as always - with the graffiti.

Private choice.

The fact that private schools offer a range of choices is no reason to subsidize them.

I don't care if you drive a bimmer instead of a Yaris.

That's your business.

Just give me, as a taxpayer, the choice of not having to subsidize your foolishness.

OK.

I certainly agree about the other point you've made though - that the activities of this government have profited the top 5% - 10% of taxpayers in this province. Funny how those were the self same folks who got the tax cuts at the beginning of the Campbell regime isn't it?

At the same time that essential services were being cut to ribbons.

As for taxes going up, I assume you're not referring to the provincial income tax levy.

We've just been told by Carole Taylor how that $50 per year extra jingle in our jeans (for a 15G taxable income) is going to give people more housing 'choices.'

Somebody's not telling the truth are they NLN?

Are you finally getting the picture?

CLub

We got those beams crossed again my friend - didn't see you till after the deed was done.

Lovely target.

Victoria Times Colonist Headline (paraphrased)

for March 15/07:

Libs Welsh on Seismic Upgrades for Schools!

Only four of 95 critical upgrades completed since /04.

My oh my! Carole Taylor just loves that word "Surplus"!

So much so, she is evidently quite willing to see children crushed in a earthquake rather than spend a nickel (other than billions for the 2010 sinkhole).

Privilege exists...

...even outside the private schools. Falcon's the perfect example. Sentinel (West Van) grad, silver spoon, rich daddy, arrogant attitude. It comes as a package, and it really never leaves you.

I agree that many private schools also exhibit this behaviour, but some kind of choice would be nice too, just like in Edmonton. And there's little doubt that cancelling funding for private schools would force some of them out of business, and also force most of the kids back into the public system, which should increase enrollment, demand and expense.

Where's the fine line between increasing the number of paths to wisdom, and sponsoring privilege for its own sake?

Everybody...

...leave Elliott the Iddiott alone. The challenged have enough troubles in life without adding scorn and vituperation to the mix, no matter how richly deserved.

BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!!!!! NOT!!

Elliott, go troll the LRB website now and see how much everyone's "incompetent union buddies" are making at your expense, you selfish little wretch. Then go look up the definition of "wrong" in any dictionary, and imagine your picture there....pride of place.... recognized by millions around the world. Maple Ridge janitors are still making $18.44 an hour no matter what clownish insults you spew.

And remember, whatever the insult you try to come up with, for anyone, whether it be GWest or Anarcho or Club or God-help-you even me, do it loud, and do it proud. Because every word you deliver confirms in the minds of the hundreds of readers of this site the abysmal education and monocular thinking that goes into your every word. You're truly a waste of bandwidth, and it marks one of the low points in my life to have to be one of the many who tell you so. Be a decent sort and go troll Little Green Footballs (www.littlegreenfootballs.com) with Ron, huh?

Think...Tennyson.....must remember Tennyson....

"...Where blind and naked Ignorance
Delivers brawling judgements, unashamed
On all things all day long."

Day's over - you can go away now.

nobody's listening to you

nobody's listening to you again moron.

another own goal for Elliot

Certainly didn't take long for you to revert to type did it?

did you say something

did you say something gwest/alcibiades/?/?/??

elliot/maestro/woody

The same learning disability. Can't play nice in the sandbox, don't get along with others, refuse to share... Please, I mean no offence, just trying to point out that you(se) guy(s) don't seem to understand social behavior. I think it was suggested that there are many training sites you could visit to learn about human interaction. Aren't you guys tired of sleeping alone... or fighting with people over and over and over..... and over. I will also request that my friend GWest choose to ignore you Klowns for all but the most offensive of your diatribes. Hey, no one enjoys a good fuck you contest more than me, but the consensus lately has been keep it real. I am making an effort not to engage in every stupid thing I hear from these 3 stooges, respecting readers wishes for more substance and less BS. The comments made by these louts are generally so predictable that they do the character "Ron Obvious" proud. You may recall the Monty Python skit, so obviously wrong at every attempt. They have no game.

hey gwest/alcibiades/?/?/??,

hey gwest/alcibiades/?/?/??, you got the last word on the trade debate site. must be b/c mr. beers respects you so much. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

another own goal - keep shooting!

Essential Rightista Mindset....

Cranky debate

There are real issues to debate here. Why can't you right and left wing nutters find some other forum to bicker in?

As to the subject of union versus private cleaners, a relative who works in the health care sector said the move to privatize the hospital cleaning was a failure for operating rooms. They had to revert to using union cleaning staff to do a proper job.

My child attends a VSB elementary school of 300 students. I have been an involved parent in several ways over the last four years. I see no evidence in our school of time-wasting, overpaid staff. Don't turn a single observation into blanket statement of 'fact'.

Dave 49

If you had the name of the facility that returned to private cleaners for ORs, I'd appreciate it. I've been in three facilities where they've talked about it, but it's been all talk, and usually other staff - porters, nurses, aides...go in afterwards and polish off the work that they think wasn't done properly, or....

The problem was that there was a 10-year fixed-price contract given for a certain amount of cleaning services, so any facility that sought to break the contract had to go through a very expensive and time-consuming process involving all sorts of audits. That facility then would be responsible for its budget overages without further funding from the health authority. So it would be brave management indeed that would be able to move forward on a proposal like this.

This conversation is not new. However, your information is.

BBOP

Someone near the top of this discussion made reference to the public paying teachers salaries. Teachers pay taxes, too, in effect paying part of their own salaries. So do custodial staff, secretaries, Teaching assistants.

Let's not forget that during the last strike, the government saved millions in salaries and then offered them the bribe which probably was about as much as the government saved. So, they were bribed with their own lost money.

For those of you who are not informed, a public school teacher who has been employed in BC district since they were in their early twenties and has been with the district for 25 years, for example, has been at the top of the scale for the last 14 years. These teachers have not received any increments. They are totally dependent upon the government to keep up with the cost of living. They are 25% behind the cost of living as of now.

As far as custodial staff goes. I wouldn't want to be one of those either. Students don't pick up after themselves and some teachers leave messes behind as well requiring much more time to clean one classroom over another. I think I heard that custodial staff are only allowed 10 or 15 minutes to clean a classroom.

In a typical School District ... such as SCHOOL DISTRICT #43 ,

There is an unfolding story there that could interest all readers of this article.

The links I will provide will give the backgrounder to a very interesting phenomena of a series of NEIGHBORHOODS who fought the impending closure of their respective neighborhood schools..,

And since , whithin this REGION , there are 5 distinct ''Community of Geography '', one can readily detect an unfolding story that goes to the very heart of what this particular article ( above ) is getting at..*

( to be continued )...