fyi; the poster named gwest

fyi; the poster named gwest has been posting under several aliases at the same time and using those aliases to defend his position and to support his arguments. you may want to be aware of this before you engage in debate with him. the editor is well aware of this situation but continues to allow him to post under the gwest alias.

That's right El

And I've been completely open about it. Did it for one year, two labels only. Now I only post under GWest.

This is news? As I posted very clearly, I advised David Beers of this one week ago today - and, as I told him then - Alcibiades has retired.

And the documentary evidence is available in the archives for anyone to see.

My point's been made.

When are you going to actually make one?

A point that is.

fyi; 'And I've been

fyi; 'And I've been completely open about it.' that statement is a lie. he was only open about it after being outed by another poster. this is something everyone should know. in fact this poster should be banned from this site if they want to be at least somewhat credible.

Funny

Since honesty is the issue, El, I wonder when you're going to acknowledge that you have posted at Tyee using a label different that Elliot as well.

You actually weren't in the list I gave David when I told him what I'd been doing - and why.

Sorry I missed you.

I wonder

If the contractor has already skipped the country. It would be par for the course.

BC is open for Business

Some workers in this province are simply "cannon fodder" in the quest to line the pockets of business, or so it seems. "BC is open for business" and, unfortunately, a death here and there is just the cost of doing business to this government. Sad, really, when profits come before life.

'You actually weren't in the

'You actually weren't in the list I gave David when I told him what I'd been doing - and why' LOL!!! do you think mr. beers is an idiot?

Oh No I don't, David Beers is no idiot

He has my highest respect and admiration for trying hard to do a difficult job as best he can. I'm doing everything I can to help him in my own small way.

I had no idea you were Nemesis as well as Elliot until Frank posted that information this morning. I signed up at the Tyee as G West on March 22, 2005 and hardly posted at all until just before the election in 2006.

It took me a while to get the lay of the land and appreciate what was going on and who was up to what. When I realized the kind of nonsense you and some others were up to I decided - on March 3, 2006, to do something about it and I worked very hard at that for one year. It has taken most of my spare time. But that’s over now and I have other important work to do.

The point I was interested in making has been demonstrated very graphically.

I wouldn't want you to think that your perennial refusal to treat me or anyone else you disagreed with like a human being capable of abstract and intelligent thought (unless we were talking sports) didn't really help me make that point.

Thanks a lot Elliot. Please don't leave, ever, you made my job so much easier.

Elliot:

Didya ever see that Monty Python skit in the movie the "Life Of Brian"?.

The one where the blasphemer is about to be stoned for allegedly saying the "J" word.

The John Cleese character is exorting everyone to punish the blasphemer...and they don't know why..then he tells them its because the accussed allegedly said teh "J " word. When the John Cleese's "know -it- all " character(sound familiar?) says the "J" word , he starts getting stoned and just doesn't get it. HE actually said the "J" word and is a wee -bit of a doomed hypocrite thinking he is above it all and the law.

I will defend G West's right to "free speech", and not into censoring them at all .

However, as I have also said as a further qualification......its CREDIBILITY that is now the issue at stake..they have exposed themselves...let them see how many rocks come their way...and then perhaps they can self -censor and BUGGER OFF without any formal banning from the TYEE.

Its also called peer pressure...let the TYEE poster-peer jury speak.

The fact that anyone else even remotely defends G West actions simply indicts THEM and their own CREDIBILITY on the old " guilt by association " meets " Birds of a feather stick together". Lefties often have umbilical cords they can't detach or else they all fold like a cheap tent, especially when the punch bowl runs dry.aka "Give em another swig Mr. Jones".

Let G West decide...and if he wants to take the whole clueless cult crew down with him. If it was anyone ELSE outside their own cult clique that tries G. Wests' stunt..., the stones would be flying by the truckload, "right" ?

Pathetic and hypocritical

gwest

When you behave like those you condemn you become them.

Snert

I stand by every word I wrote. Both labels posted exactly the same point of view and philosophy.

Many writers use several aliases.

The behavior I pointed out condemns itself.

All I did was bring it to others' attention.

As I wrote elsewhere, I'm thinking of doing a book. Even you'll get a bit part snert.

O -M -G . G . West.

What an effF'n Lyin piece of $#% crock.

The end justifies the means...eh? and all that goes with it ?

How's your " file" going... ?

Now you are really losing it.

Get help...ASAP. See if the TYEE has extended health care coverage for Professional Scam Artists.

'As I wrote elsewhere, I'm

'As I wrote elsewhere, I'm thinking of doing a book.' this guy needs help.

Don't flatter yourself.

Many writers use several aliases.

Interesting debate gentlemen

Interesting debate gentlemen - but weren't we talking about worker safety?

Unfortunately, unless the person killed is close to gov't nothing valuable is going to happen from that direction.
Perhaps a good old-fashioned Irish wake with the victims in front of the Legislature would convey the point?
After all St. Patrick's Day is only a few days away.

This is why unions were formed. Has the Canadian Farmer's alliance(?), BCFED, etc. thought of doing so? Since gov't won't look after them perhaps they can look after themselves with a little help?

Of course, this could all be part of a gov't plot to eliminate seniors and ease the burden on health care, social services, extended care, etc.

maestro + nightbloom = elliot + imac

The original conspiracy group of howling trolling monkies!! They all say the same thing. It matters not if they log in under different names. Same dung heap!

Funny how they are only dirty tricks when the NDP get caught. Like bingo gate. The press were on that story like a dog on a bone. But sell BC Rail from under the carpet, or give away our resources to foriegn business interests with no regard for the future, well that's called the new BC, open for business! Capitalism has never had it so good! Rape, theft, arson, murder and more rape, all their favorite passtimes legalized. Keep your hands off my stack! Sick, perverted, twisted creatures who regularly sell their own family members for profit.... but they find out someone posted under two names? They howl and scream like caged monkeys at a peanut convention. They cease to function. Funniest display I've seen on the Tyee yet. Witness maestros self destruction.... (from another thread)

SNERT

snert says

Ok then, SNERT aka SNOT , When did the transition from commentators to Writers take place on this site?

Woody

Ask G West. He seems to think they are one and the same.

Immigrant farm workers have

Immigrant farm workers have been jamming themselves into vans like sardines for many years. Every few years they crash and die....

Would the vehicle inspectors be counting how many passengers get into the van each day? Would they ensure that they are doing a safe speed? A van crashes when the tire blew that had 19 people on board. How is that the government's fault?

I am no fan of this gov't whatsoever... but the migrant farm worker problem has been going on for decades. Safety, minimum wage, working conditions... it's no dofferent now than 10 years ago.

SNERT YOU MISSED MY POINT

YOU SAID(Many writers use several aliases.)
I asked when did we(us) as COMMENTATORS, become WRITERS. Also, now don't go and get your rigging hung up on a fence somewhere, just because I said your alias is snot, ta-was only a yoak.

Woody

I didn't say (Many writers use several aliases.) That was a quote from G West. I have nothing hung up on anything but you may wish to unknot your tongue. No pun intended.

VanIsle Guy

I believe, since a change in the regulatory and enforcement mechanisms and practices in 2001 that the ministry stopped sending flying squads (their term, not mine) to check out at random the safety of the transportation used to get farm workers to and from work by the contractors who sell their labour. Among other things.

I think the situation since then has been very different. Alas.

Enforcing the requirement that every passenger in a conveyance is belted into an approved seat doesn't seem like a big deal to me. But apparently it was getting in the way of the efficiency this government seems to think is so important

My view only. Cheap food is one thing. Cheap lives quite another.

And the price of quite a few things, including freedom, is vigilance.

'it's no dofferent now than

'it's no dofferent now than 10 years ago' make that 110 years ago. i grew up on main street. in the 60's rickety old rigs would drop pickers off from their way back from richmond. they were 5 ton trucks that weren't fit for the road, and the pickers were crammed into the back of them. you can regulate all you want but this won't change unless the people running the show decide they want it to.

And the people that do such things...

...and behave in such despicable ways toward their fellow human beings are just as bad now as they were then. This is why we have a social contract and a government to protect the weak, the innocent and the powerless.

And to prevent the folks who think the only thing that matters is making a profit from ruining a decent country and killing people by their purblind neglect and greed. Lots of times the good old days weren’t – excellent point Elliot.

club-sky

Speaking of Farms:

How much rent do you pay in the basement suite of the Outhouse?

Renewed the lease A-G-A-I-N ?

Still bouncing cheques ?

BTW when you look up to the person using the MAIN floor,ie " when the moon is full " ....also consider what you see as your own personal mirror image.

However, what is " dropped - off " as you admire your spitting -image reflection is actually your own TYEE comments being " Paid in Full ".

Maybe ask for a raise.

Dennis?

maestro, are you channeling your inner Dennis Miller again?

Hmmmm

Damn:

The Full moon IS out...

The evi-dunce suggests the secret identity of the ex-Spanish Dictator is...

Oops, sorry, gotta go, its Club-sky's " agri-cash -corner" pay day.

Franco Rules

As the leader of Spain during the glory days I want to announce that my people love me and are welcome to come back to Madrid now. Guernica is still off limits unless you have your official Condor Legion membership badge.

Hey, I hear Dennis Miller is trying to be cool again and seems to regret his support of Bush and Iraq and those elusive WMD's.

Frank

Frank..speaking of the Spanish Civil War have you seen Pans Labyrinth?

What's this?

Hey up there! Did you drop a quarter? It's fifty cents a throw.

Credit

Give him credit Frank, he spent about 2 hours on that rant...

bob

No I haven't but its on the must-see list. Maybe I'll get a sitter this weekend and go.

Have you seen it?

Responsibility!

It is indeed sad to see traffic accidents such as this one, but what about of individual responsibility.

More bureaucratic oversight, which always seems to be the clarion call of the left, is quite frankly just an excuse. People, we do have rules, regulations, and standards that ought to be followed.

It is said that the vehicle in question was inspected and passed; yet once inspected, it appears the seating was modified to allow more passengers. Who is responsible for that? Surly not the government.

While the jury is still out on causation of this accident, small buses like the one in question perhaps do need to have a requirement to wwear seat belts.

On a larger issue, if the Unions are so bothered by this accident, why the hell is the BCFED and the Farmers Union not telling these folks on how to properly sit in a bus and count heads?

The other question is the matter of whi is operating the bus. If the operator (or tranport company) has contravened whatever regulation, they ought to be charged.

Perhaps we need to have signs posted (in several languages) in every farm bus outlining the number of passengers permitted, and any other pertenent information.

Bottomline, it is up to the individual, the driver and the passenger to use logic and personal responsibility, to follow laws.

twice so far

Frank...yes ..the director Guillarmo el Toro has made a study of the Spanish Civil War...
The detail is incredible..
The film is not "Arty" but truly a work of Art if you know what I mean.
I think you`ll really enjoy it. It is a masterpiece.

Responsibility!

More bureaucratic oversight, which always seems to be the clarion call of the left, is quite frankly just an excuse. People, we do have rules, regulations, and standards that ought to be followed.

Bottomline, it is up to the individual, the driver and the passenger to use logic and personal responsibility, to follow laws.

Yeah, just a few East Indian women killed. Why bother to have any enforcement or investigation? They really should have known better. Gee, maybe we could really save some bucks and do away with all those nasty inspectors that get in our way when we want to reduce overhead.

While the jury is still out on causation of this accident, small buses like the one in question perhaps do need to have a requirement to wwear seat belts.

It's already the law. But your comments above seem to indicate that you don't want the "bureaucratic oversight" involved in enforcing it.

The other question is the matter of whi is operating the bus. If the operator (or tranport company) has contravened whatever regulation, they ought to be charged.
Perhaps we need to have signs posted (in several languages) in every farm bus outlining the number of passengers permitted, and any other pertenent information.

Make up your mind. Is the bottom line that it's up to the individual, the driver and the passenger without any bureaucratic oversight, "which always seems to be the clarion call of the left", or should these people be charged, and we post signs in every farm bus?

Strange how events overtake the debate

When you read through all these posts you can see the problem. A lot of debate the usual labels thrown at anyone who thinks that more regulations and enforcement will solve the problem. Then yesterday on the highway we see the classic example of why we can never let industries and corporations police themselves. It kind of brings it back to the issue. Its a shame it has to come to this.
Seventeen people in a van is far too many.

VanIsle Guy

Prior to my retirement, I was responsible for the contracting regime that provided many diverse services to my employer. The nature of these services were such that the contractors were able to employ individuals with a relatively low skill level. For reasons that may be debated, the result was that most of the contractors bidding for the work employed recently-immigrated East Indians. It is also a fact that most of the contractors were East Indians who were not-so-recent immigrants. In administering the awarded contracts (most of which went to the low bidder), I encountered continual and incredible situations where recent immigrants were subjected to what by our standards can only be described as shocking abuse. Read this slowly so you understand...They are not jamming themselves into vans like sardines ...Most of them don't have a choice or a clue what is going on. One of the ladies killed yesterday had been in Canada less than eight months.

"Would the vehicle inspectors be counting how many passengers get into the van each day? Would they ensure that they are doing a safe speed? A van crashes when the tire blew that had 19 people on board. How is that the government's fault?"

One of the first things the current government did upon election was gut the labor laws, tilt the WCB regulations in favor of the employer, and dramatically reduce inspection regimes. The answer to all your questions is contained in those facts.
The direct cause of yesterday's crash hasn't been determined, but previous causes of similar ones have been. Do you have any concept of why load ratings are specified for tires? Do you think that a contractor who overloads a van that is poorly maintained, has bad tires, and is inspected by a firm related to or owned by him, should be excused because it has been going on for decades?

"Safety, minimum wage, working conditions... it's no dofferent (sic) now than 10 years ago."

I strongly disagree. All have demonstrably deteriorated due to legislation and policy since the Liberals were elected in 2001. And don't misunderstand; I wanted to see the back of the NDP in that election as much as anybody and voted against them after years of support, because they definitely had become bad government.

Having said that, I will not remain silent while the Liberals lie to, cheat, and exploit the citizens of this province. In any case, that job is already taken by the SUN, POST, GLOBE, and 'NW, among others.

unskilled labour

It seem obvious that some of the posters here, have never been so poor and desperate that any opportunity to make money overrides caution!
Do not blame poor people for refusing to jam into a van and thereby loose a days pay, and possibly be blacklisted as well.

Officially attitudes have changed somewhat, yet I remember when Kingston Shipyard had a large sign in front of their employement office stating that "Limeys need not apply!"
So now we do not officially discriminate anymore, but our society has been modified so certain groups automatically wind up being treated in ways that would not be acceptable to "ordinary citizens"

Poster integrity and respect is important.

To err is human; to forive, divine.

However, if anyone wishes to know the scale of G.West-Alcibiades' deception on this forum, it is important to read the Matthew Rothschild article, "911 Crazy Talk," after which G.West-Alcibiades participate(s) giving the impression that there are two distinct personalities in the debate regarding 911.

This, from the terry Glavin "Solidarity Whenever" article is very interesting also:

Alcibiades:

"Now I see from some of the material posted above that G.West appears to have turned the alleged humour value of these remarks back on Mr. Glavin himself."

And in that same article G.West rants and rails against Mr. Beers for banning Coyote, while just above in this forum, he expresses his respect, saying, "He has my highest admiration for doing a difficult job," or something like that.

So what's really going on here?

So, in spite of believing that West-Alcibiades has shown no respect for the Tyee forum or indeed, other posters with his fakery, we can at least remember not to take anything he says seriously.

Never said it didn't happen Truman

If you'd actually looked at what I posted you'd see I said that...something along the lines of 'If one or the other of these identities gave some credit to the other, they probably deserved it.'

Why do you think I chose the label Alcibiades?

Truman, where've you been?

I wrote that after I had already disclosed that G West and Alcibiades were both written by the same person. The whole story is on the Boy Trouble thread where everyone can read it at their leisure.

Truman

I wrote that after I had already disclosed that G West and Alcibiades were both written by the same person. The whole story is on the Boy Trouble thread where everyone can read it at their leisure.

You might also want to have a look at what was going on at Terry Glavin's blog at the same time. You may like being lumped in with conspiracy theorists because you are one.

I'm not.

I don't think just because I post here at Tyee that anyone, Glavin included, has the right to say I subscribe to a view I don't - whether it's watered down anti-Semitism, Holocaust denial or what have you. And then when one tries to post a comment on his blog making that point to be simply removed.

Not my idea of debate. Or dissent.

Yours?

As to Coyote’s situation, I’ve addressed that with David Beers privately - it has nothing to do with this situation, in my view.

This: on the Rothschild thread.

Truman Green 24-09-2006

"Alcibiades, may I suggest that you cut the crap? Now let's hear your rebuttal. Otherwise, you're just blowing hot air, don't you think?"

G.West 24-09-2006

"Besides, I don't think that it serves any useful purpose, and no, I'm not blowing hot air, in my opinion."

There you are, as you often did, answering a questioned asked of Alcibiades.

Other times I asked you point blank if a particular exchange had proven that you are Alcibiades. You denied it, although I recall vividly that you did not exactly say, "No, I am not Alcibiades."

I regret the time I wasted on this stupid hoax, as does Nightbloom, who had long intellectual conversations with both of you. Can you not understand why we think your behaviour on this forum has been so infantile and dishonest?

And are you not also the character known as Gerhardius?

As I said already, I never denied it

I've had this out with nightbloom and numerous others.
Where have you been?
I did what I did for a reason, which I explained both on that thread - and to David Beers.

I think it was an honourable one and I'm prepared to stand by it. If you disagree I'll have to live with that too Truman. Alci and G West never once took a fundamentally different point of view - as you know.

I never denied that I (the person behind the posts of both labels) was one and the same person and I did that very carefully.

I have not ever, on these threads, posted under any other label than those two. To link anyone else to this is unfair to them - not to me.

I posted my email address frequently and asked you and others to send me a message.

Anyone who did reply was instantly apprised of the fact that I was both GWest and Alcibiades. Every single one of the people who posted their good wishes to you when you were gone from these pages did it because of me.

Not that it matters, it was the right thing to do.

I tried to phone you Truman and you weren't willing to pick up the phone.

I have no guilt whatsoever about what I did; the experiment lasted one year exactly.

I wish that every conversation on this site could be conducted with a modicum of respect for every interlocutor - whether their opinions are similar or diametrically opposed. That's the way I've tried to behave - as both GWest and Alci. And I'm proud of it.

I don't think I ever said anything, under either label that I did not believe. I've never made ad hominem remarks about anyone.

I have never posted as Gerhardius and any further mention of that label (and whomever is behind it) is unfair to him or her.

You can find my email address if you care for any other information. This has gone on far too long. What people say and how they say it, in my opinion, is what is important. Labels, self-assigned or otherwise, are not. If I had taken opposite sides of questions and debates to just stir the pot and promote controversy you would have a point. I didn’t.

never forgot how that constant hungry feeling felt.

alive said

Yes, your quite correct on that assertion, Alive. A personal experience, I recall in Prince George many eons back, I and a buddy couldn’t buy a job, just none to be had , we started to get and go hungry, this was the one and only time in my life when my stomach shook hands with my spine, that’s how much my stomach shrunk. Not nice , not nice at all, never forgot how that constant hungry feeling felt.

It would have been easier...

It would have been easier to forgive you, G.West, if you had apologized, but anyways...I'm never forgiving you for explaining to Capitalism why George Bush is called Dubya. That was so funny I'll probably never be able to get mad at anybody again. hee hee ha ho ho ho, eh.

nicely done truman. this

nicely done truman. this guy's delusional if he thinks we're going to believe his story about 'conducting an experiment'. he's been caught with his hand in the cookie jar and he's not man enough to admit that what he did was very, very wrong. he should definitely be banned from this site.

Wsit till you read the book El

Wait till you read the book.

And El

You'll be a big part of it. People are going to find it hard to believe that not once, during a whole year, did you say something that wasn't mean and childish and unfair unless it was about sports.

Truman will come out very well, in contrast.

Perhaps because he's been man enough to post his own name from the beginning.

See Ya Truman. I couldn't belive Capitalism had to ask.

I must agree with you, Elliot.

I don't accept that 'West' was doing an experiment. If so, what was it? How to deceive and betray the trust of your friends?

And encouraging well-meaning and naive people to email him so he could enlist them in his hoax is positively spy and mole-like, not to mention extremely sinister behaviour. I think G.West should be banned from this site.

I asked him several times if he was indeed Alcibiades, and he denied it, as long ago as the Rothschild thread.

Baloney.

You need to check the rules here Truman. I haven't broken any.

Being banned

What would it matter if G West was banned? Let's see, he'd have to sign up with a new name. Alcibiades perhaps? Boy, that would be hard. He'd be out of action for something like 10 minutes.

Untruths & Fraud

Yesterday I read that the bus had 2 more passengers (not 7 as noted at top) than the vehicle was built for. It was also claimed that there was not a wood-bench seat. I can't imagine how, other than tickets from police for overloading, any government regulation could avoid this happening, unless workers are transported by government run vehicles. The present government cannot in any way be held responsible for what happened and any suggestion to that effect is absolutely ridiculous.

So, we've been goaded and tricked into multiple scams for a writer to create a book. What we thought were debates by extremists has been stretched and now our commentaries are to be fashioned into a book for filthy lucre, or will the proceeds, if any, go towards a charity? From a journalists point of view this is tantamount to earning proceeds from crime. All to help The Tyee get things stirred up.

Journalistic Fraud: How The New York Times Distorts the News and Why It Can No Longer Be Trusted (Hardcover)
by Bob Kohn.

I guess the book will go on the shelf in the Journalistic Frauds section.

i agree frank. at least if

i agree frank. at least if he's gwest i know who i'm dealing with: someone with zero credibility and absolutely nothing worth reading.

Extremists? Who me?

You've got to be joking realisticman.

When someone starts paying me for my input you MIGHT have a point.

Until then, you haven't.

You don't have to buy the book - but, if it gets written and published, I'll bet you will.

No frauds at all. Just the same point of view written under 2 different labels. For a very good reason.

Even Elliot is slowly, along with yourself, turning into an honest and civil interlocutor.

And, btw, a big thanks to both of you for realizing that it's not necessary to call people names to get your point across.

Wasn't so difficult was it?

As far as credibility is concerned, I'd say the content and rationality of what I post stands up very nicely according to that standard.

And furthermore

I'll bet you won't stop reading, not even for a minute.

And Speaking of the New York Times, realisticman

And a propos of Thames Embankment plonk, there is a lovely short interview with John Mortimer in the Magazine this morning.

I love to spend Sunday mornings with the Times, how about you?

Considered next to the weekend Sun, I find there is just no comparison.

If it sells

I guess it could look good on the CV if you decide to hang your hat on Howe Street and pump some stocks.

Now, I've finished the Times

Moreover, there's one other tiny point that needs clarification. There is a suggestion, realisticman, in your post a step or two back up the line here, that David Beers might be involved with the person behind GWest and GWest's amanuensis Alcibiades in some way.

Nothing could be more distant from reality. As I've pointed out numerous times in the last 10 days, the only person ever involved was me, period. The only avatars who have ever posted anything on my behalf (so to speak) are GWest and Alcibiades, period.

I can't imagine that David Beers is immune to some degree of pride at the fact that readership of this website has been rising steadily throughout the past year until it has reached its current level. He might even think that some of that increased popularity has come in some small way from the miniscule contribution I've made here.

However, in the end, I'm sure the fact that the Tyee was mentioned (albeit a little late and a trifle grudgingly) on page A3 of the aforementioned Vancouver Sun is a much more important goad to increased readership for the Tyee: If I've contributed in any way to that, I'll be happy to have my role mentioned by anyone - even you.

Now, I have some research to do into farm deaths and injury rates since 2001.

By the way, Frank Rich and David Brooks are both worth reading in the Sunday Times as well.

'He might even think that

'He might even think that some of that increased popularity has come in some small way from the miniscule contribution I've made here.' oh my god! you are a seriously troubled individual g. get some help guy.

El - did you not read what R/man wrote?

Might be a good idea if you did. Then you might have even a tiny clue about what I was writing about.

You're still skating down the right wing and missing the goal by a mile.

C'mon, get in the game dude.

Self-Appointed Referee and Multi-Voiced Heckler

Looking over archived threads it's clear that G has followed the pattern, like a school-mistress or a sports-team coach. Cheering on his team and yelling, using different voices, at any and all that bring issue with the party line of his ultra-left team. It's outrageous. He chats to the brethren with glowing glee and asks them to give more and he attacks the dissenters and riddles their facts with catcalls to seemingly attempt to throw them off and kick them out. Conclusions, assumptions and accusations are thrown out to divert issues. He just did it to me above, (I never made any suggestion that David Beers was in on his self-confessed scheming con buy he infers that I inferred).

He's his own hired cheerleader and heckler and he's now telling us that it was all the right thing to do. Wow, what Gaul!

I used to come here to read opinions but it was just a game of attack and parry, by more and multiple avatars under the same cloak. Hill & Knowlton and John Le Carré come to mind. My mea culpa is that I've been conned.

Ultra Left?

I'm unclear on where you get "ultra left" from gwest. His writings don't bring to mind what makes up the definition I've learned. Could you explain, expand further, please?

Oh really!

Is what you said. The implication that would be good for David Beers shouldn't be too difficult to discern, should it?

It's almost as “absurd” as this suggestion:

Given the facts spelled out in the story above....

Along with a lot of other material which will, when I have it assembled, be placed here - or elsewhere - for public consideration.

As far as charging

For any book I write and publish based upon what has gone on here - and elsewhere - I've put in an awful lot of time; a great deal of very persistent effort; and taken quite a bit of ad hominem abuse into the bargain during the past year.

I'm not ashamed of anything I've done or written during that period, and if I can turn it into a commercial product that people are willing to spend some cash on, I'd have thought that was just the kind of thing someone like you, realisticman, would want to applaud.

Funny how that works isn't it?

I don't think anybody forced you to participate, did they?

By the way, have you seen Barry's house yet?

Scrambling

You may be on a crusade for The Tyee, West but I never suggested that anyone else was involved. As you yourself said when exposing your dual-personality, you did it alone. Twisting your attack as per usual?

Blonde Pitbull

Here's an old snippet that might give you an inkling:

G West
11-04-2006
"... you now recognize the problems were created by Chirac's reactionary right wing policies and see the virtue of left-wing thinking and analysis. Welcome to the revolution brother!"

You were the one

Who suggested I was on a crusade for the Tyee?

I think it was YOU, remember?

It's been pretty obvious I've been left wing all along, and damn proud of it.

I see you as pretty much of a cheerleader for the other side. And I have the quotes to prove it.

But you're gonna have to buy the book, if I can get some vicious left-wing publisher to buy it, if you want to see how it all goes together.

I do promise not to misquote you. Whether you tell your friends who 'realisticman' actually is, is up to you.

Funny how, when capitalists feel they're not in control of things that those famous 'principles' go out the window and they see themselves as 'victims' isn't it?

Maybe they should be a little more cognizant of the fact that the so-called losers in this crooked system aren't always down there at the bottom of the pile because of anything they've done either.

Does such an observation make me an 'ultra leftist'?

I don't really think so, do you?

As I said, I'm proud of everything I've written here. I can't understand why you feel you've been tricked into saying something you now disavow.

What is that all about anyway?

how stupid do you think we

how stupid do you think we are g? this bullshite about a book is simply your way of trying to justify your despicable actions of posting as (at least) two different people to support your arguments. the first sign that you're a little off is the amount of time you spend here at this two-bit website that is supported by a bunch of unionists. nobody else reads it g. get a life!

Coming Out & Going Down

Does such an observation make me an 'ultra leftist'?

The above from the previously confessed dual personality but presently going by the name of G West.

Au contraire, it's not I that disavows my writing.

You claim that I am claiming to be a victim of a scam that you perpetrated, was it not you that told us we were? Have you forgotten your confession?

Keep digging bud.

Then you didn't write this?

I've done nothing but post facts, statistics, data and my opinions - which have been entirely up front and consistent from the beginning.

Sounds to me, from what you wrote and I've no reposted that you now seem to think you've been tricked into saying something you now disavow - or wouldn't have said if you'd know that the same person was behind both G West and Alcibiades to me.

How come?

Which of your statements did I 'con' out of you?

I've done all the digging I need to - and I've got more than enough evidence of what you and yours seem to stand for. In your own words.

Would you like to deny any of that?

errate

that's - 'I've now reposted...' above here

errata -that should be, again, my apologies

I'm waiting.

Very politely too, I'd say.

Morally it's David's

Any intention to cut-and-paste from this web site to make a book for the marketplace and for monetory gain should be the priviledge of David Beers who has taken the trouble and the expense to develop this web site as an alternative forum for discourse that offers an alternative to the main-stream-media.

Interlocutors that happen by and muscle in with more than one identity and then stimulate contention by goading, through their multiple personalities, with the objective of absconding with the then generated discourse to seek reproduction of the material in the marketplace under a traditional cover should be censured.

What are you going to call it G West? "How To Generate Controversy Take Advantage and Skim Juicy Commentaries from the New Media and Get Rich"?

Will you be holding 'How-To' fee based seminars with book signings at the Waterfront Hotel?

No, I haven't decided what the title will be

And I'll give David Beers and Tyee lots of credit too.

Some of the things I may include would be this sort of thing - something I, as the putative author of the book actually contributed.

I'd like to know what exactly you think is wrong with that?

I think it's entirely apropos to post it again as a kind of coda on a story about how a labour contractor was 'involved' in the improper and unsafe transportation of more than a dozen agricultural workers, many of whom probably didn't even speak English,

For much of the last century Mexico was dominated by a single party, the PRI, which was so corrupt that it might in fact be an appropriate definition for the term.

Whether or not Fox manages to hang on to power in the upcoming election hardly means that he has delivered on the promises he'd made to the Mexican people - he certainly doesn't represent the dispossessed and poor majority of Mexicans any more effectively than most of his predecessors did. My only point was that he, and his government, are far from left wing. You are the one who wrote above that the problems in France (and by implication in the world) are the result of 'lefties' being in power. That statement is, and was, demonstrably false.

Whether Mexicans have the power and the good sense to send Fox back to his ranch is up to them. To pretend that the problems in Mexico can be, or have been, addressed in a fair-minded way by the 'sort' of governments you seem to prefer is the real question in my mind. They haven't, and the current unpleasantness in the US over the continuing disconnect in American society between how some Americans are prepared to use 11 million odd illegal workers is a problem, not for the left, but for the right, in my opinion. Even George Bush, of all people, recognizes the need for some reasonable resolution to this critical issue. If you’re aware of what is being debated and considered in the House of Representatives at this time, you couldn’t accuse Bush’s party of having a similar approach.

I don’t have all the answers. I disagree that you and others have any right to suggest the left is responsible for all these problems. On balance, countries with a social democratic tradition in government have, in my opinion, managed to create societies that are fairer and more equitable than the ones you seem to prefer.

Perhaps you'd like to remind us what words of yours occasioned my post quoted above?

Write on Baby!

Write what you wrote. That's fine. Goading others with multiple attacks and put-downs to contrarians from unannounced multiple personalities and then using the subsequent material for financial gain is exactly the type of thing that you repeatedly decry. As you would say, it's divide and conquer. It's wrong and The Tyee and David Beers alone should have the rights to publish and profit from it.

Arn't you magnanimous

G West nicely says;

Isn't that a bit like saying cheers to the pickers, as you lift your coffee cup, the poor sods that picked your non-free-trade coffee beans?

Goaded - mais non

I goaded you into nothing.

You came here and posted on a public forum of your own free will. There was nothing wrong with anything I did and my views have been consistent and delivered without a hint of anger or bad taste.

I never called anyone a name, slandered anyone because of their parentage, nationality, country, language or province of origin.

The people who have behaved that way in this public forum may well have something to answer for, but, as anonymous posters they all only have their own conscience to answer to.

Mine is as clear as crystal. I never entertained the thought of making my experiences into a narrative of any kind until - at the end of the year just past - during which I used two names to post my views instead of one for reasons I've been very open about and I'm certain you've read - I realized how hypocritical it was that I was being condemned for it. I began to think I had a story that others might be interested in hearing.

Condemned, that is, not for what my message was or the way I delivered it, but simply because of the labels I used to make those statements.

When I realized how many people (not you necessarily) were now condemning me, while they'd spent most of the last year doing little else but throwing mud and ad hominem attacks, I decided that the materials I'd saved actually contained a very interesting story.

A story about how we treat each other as citizens and human beings, an account of how we hide our worst qualities behind a veil of anonymity, and a story about how the internet could - if people actually behaved a little differently - turn into a vehicle to promote positive change and understanding.

I can't help but think that most fair-minded individuals would wait to see whether such a project is possible - let alone publishable - before they condemned it.

I think you may find it's an interesting story and well worth the price of a copy. And that’s all I have to say on the subject. If you chose not to participate any longer in any discussion that I’m involved in I’ll just have to live with it.

IN GOD I TRUST, BUT YOU PAY CASH

Gwest
How much are you going to charge per copy of this Tyee novel?
The name Woody, is copy write, what about my 25% residual.(gross)
And none of this Ill pay you by cheque bullsh!t either, its cash, especially when Im dealing with a guy with 4-6 aliases. Where in the Tyee rules is it it stated your allowed to remove these contents- material? Were the commentators so advised that this material would be republished?

Not at all

I think I've explained myself very clearly.

Furthermore, I thought the whole idea of the capitalist economy was to come up with an idea, market it intelligently and cash in. I thought the whole concept was to create profits out of thin air.

You know, use your intelligence and hard work to prove you have the beans to 'make' it in the 'real' world. Create a need and then fill it, you know the kind of thing.

I'm sure I've heard that mantra before.

Funny how it sounds different when you're on the other side of the fence, isn't it?

I do hope you get to see that house of Barry Downs's. It had some very nice, simple lines. I doubt you'll be able to get inside. The glass treatment around the fireplace was a real highlight for me.

Bye.

Woody

You mean you have 4-5 aliases? That would probably mean I'll have to do a re-write.

Shucks.

I think you'll have a little trouble establishing 'woody' as a valid copyright. But go for it. If you're successful I'll have my agent call your agent and we'll work out a deal.
OK?

And woody

I actually don't anticipate you'll be quoted all that often in the final version.

Anyway, gotta go. This writing is a tough business. Folks keep interrupting you.

Money talks bullsh!t walks,

GWest
What is your agents name and phone no. Stop being evasive.
GWest this the second time I have made this comment to you as yet no proper response from you,why not?
I’ve in favor of the capitalistic system but your hedging here Westerly. Your going to have to share the loot Westerly ,or possibly Beers will have to pay on your behalf.You have answered nothing.

One more little reminder

About where the idea that certain kinds of workers have somehow less 'value' than others; that certain classes of workers might not need the kind of government safety intervention as other sorts of workers; that 'nobody' could have prevented the death of three workers on the highway last week.

This is from tomorrow's New York Times. As we continue to bring temporary 'guest' workers into this province for longer periods, as we pretend that there is no need for government oversight to prevent labour force exploitation in this province - especially in the agriculture sector - we should perhaps think about what Bob Herbert has to say.

Just a thought.

The report is titled “Close to Slavery: Guestworker Programs in the United States.” It will be formally released today at a press conference in Washington.

Workers recruited from Mexico, South America, Asia and elsewhere to work in American hotels and in such labor-intensive industries as forestry, seafood processing and construction are often ruthlessly exploited.

They are routinely cheated out of their wages, which are low to begin with. They are bound like indentured servants to the middlemen and employers who arrange their work tours in the U.S. And they are virtual hostages of the American companies that employ them.

The law does not allow these “guests” to change jobs while they’re here. If a particular employer is unscrupulous, as is very often the case, the worker has little or no recourse.

One of the guest workers profiled in the report was a psychology student recruited in the Dominican Republic to work at a hotel in New Orleans in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. The woman had taken on $4,000 in debt to cover “fees” and other expenses that were required for her to get a desk job that paid $6 an hour.

But after a month, her hours were steadily reduced until she was working only 15 or 20 hours a week. That left her with barely enough money to survive, and with no way of paying off her crushing debt.

The woman and her fellow guest workers had hardly enough money for food. “We would just buy Chinese food because it was the cheapest,” she said. “We would buy one plate a day and share it between two or three people.” She told the authors of the report: “I felt like an animal without claws — defenseless. It is the same as slavery.”

Steven Greenhouse of The Times recently reported on a waiter from Indonesia who took on $6,000 in debt to become a guest worker. He arrived in North Carolina expecting to do farm work but found that there was no job for him at all.

The report focused primarily on the 120,000 foreign workers who are allowed into the U.S. each year to work on farms or at other low-skilled jobs. In most cases the guest workers take on a heavy debt load to participate in the program, anywhere from $500 to more than $10,000. Worried about the welfare of their families back home, and with the huge debt hanging over their heads, the workers are most often docile, even in the face of the most egregious treatment.

The result, said the report, is that they are “systematically exploited and abused.”

Some of the worst abuses occur in the forestry industry. The report said, “Virtually every forestry company that the Southern Poverty Law Center has encountered provides workers with pay stubs showing that they have worked substantially fewer hours than they actually worked.”

A favorite (and extremely cruel) tactic of employers is the seizure of guest workers’ identity documents, such as passports and Social Security cards. That leaves the workers incredibly vulnerable.

“Numerous employers have refused to return these documents even when the worker simply wanted to return to his home country,” the report said. “The Southern Poverty Law Center also has encountered numerous incidents where employers destroyed passports or visas in order to convert workers into undocumented status.”

Without their papers the workers live in abject fear of encountering the authorities, who will treat them as illegals. They are completely at the mercy of the employers.

President Bush has been relentless in his push to greatly expand guest worker programs as part of his effort to revise the nation’s immigration laws. To expand these programs without looking closely at the gruesome abuses already taking place would be both tragic and ridiculous.

“This is not a situation where there are just a few bad-apple employers,” said Mary Bauer, director of the Immigrant Justice Project at the Southern Poverty Law Center, which has initiated a number of lawsuits on behalf of abused workers. “Our experience is that it’s the very structure of the program that lends itself to abuse.”

You think it couldn't happen here?
I wonder.

just above you are

just above you are witnessing a conversation between two total morons.

Thanks GWest

I am so proud of you and all the research you do for this site. You provide so much good conversation, important information, background material and global opinions on topics we discuss at the Tyee. You'd think people would be more appreciative! BTW -Why do you think some commentors are so anal about you having had two labels? You certainly are not alone, so what's the big deal? The not so hidden truth is out there now, so get over it fellas! What are they going on and on about for so long? I guess it is just more mean spiritness and the fact they just don't like someone around to always call them on their bad behavior, bad attitudes and/or ignorance. You challenge them GWest and they don't like you for it. It's time to move on everyone! The commentary on too many threads is full of this childishness. Sheesh!

I'll be waiting

for the insults from the posse of morons.

Elliot

I know I'm posting in your timeslot and borrowing your insults ie: moron, but it works for me too! Now I can get a good night's sleep and be refreshed when i read how my comments got dumped on.

commentary belongs to the Tyee

'Fraid not. No mention of the Tyee owning copyright to posters' comments anywhere on the site that I can see. Taking from the articles would be a different matter... you'd need the permission of the author unless the Tyee buys exclusive rights in perpetuity.

Welcome to Web 2.0. Everything belongs to everybody... anything can be monetized. The ultimate free market and the biggest complainers are right-whingers. Quel suprise.

'I am so proud of you and

'I am so proud of you and all the research you do for this site.' hey g. i know you're busy blathering on this site, but you've got to put a little more time and effort into disguising your aliases. this is too easy!

Elliot

You're still playing with your stick in other people's faces my friend.

That's not the Canadian way. I told you I've only ever posted under two labels at Tyee. Now I only post as G West.

Leave everyone else out of it. You apparently have nothing else to contribute so, if you want to continue the stick work with me that's just fine. I need a few more references for the chapter I'm going to call Elliot. And every time you get a shift here now I'm going to score a goal so keep it up until you've had enough.

Gee, where'd he learn that?

still spinning and deceiving

still spinning and deceiving eh g? you're full of shite dude. and anyone who either has half a brain or some objectivity knows it. you've given this 'chat site' a very bad name. too bad you didn't have the courage to admit you were wrong and go away at least somewhat honourably. instead you continue to make a fool of yourself and the editor as well. as far as i can tell you're a complete fool.

Quote:still spinning and

Well, Elliot, on the basis of YOUR record I don't think you have a leg to stand on.

The only one making a fool of himself is you, simply because you haven't got the beans to actually have a civil discussion.

You always end up resorting to this kind of thing:"you're full of shite dude"

The only time that kind of thing appears in anything I write is when I cut if from your posts and paste it in mine.

Funny how that keeps happening.

Thanks for coughing up the puck in your own zone again. I don't think you even know how to play the game, dude!

The sas part is that I have a feeling you're not actually a 'complete fool' (your words again); you just can't stop acting like one.

last line should be

The SAD part is that I have a feeling you're not actually a 'complete fool' (your words again); you just can't stop acting like one.

Bye now.

Maybe you should head to a 'chat room' like 'proud to be Canadian' where the kind of views and the kind of behavior you seem to like are a more recognized currency.

Good story, David.

Good story, David. Deregulation has its... effects. Instead of loading up 10 farm workers into old, tired vans, we can get in 18! Aint Deregulation cost effective?

I'm surprised how guys like Capitalism aren't here to comment on how much cost savings are realized with wealth "trickle down" economics benefiting us all, as corporations and other various slave traders make good chunks of $$$ that in turn, as Capitalist would say, gets recycled into the community. You know, good ol' trickle down economics. I'm hearing Captialism's voice now, saying "I'm opening my wallet wide to make room for the extra windfall that deregulation provides"!

Or maybe its the voice we don't get to hear. "People died? They weren't real Canadians anyways. Barely human. Canadians don't need to be regulated. They can regulate themselves. Who cares about a bunch of exploited foreigners exploited by their own from poor countries... look after the businessman and the businessman looks after you! My office is... uh... don't call us, we'll call you. Need to know basis, need to know."

This thread had its highlights...

"The first sign that you're a little off is the amount of time you spend here at this two-bit website that is supported by a bunch of unionists. nobody else reads it g. get a life!" - Elliot

This comment comes from a guy who's finally expanded a large enough vocabulary combined with spelling and grammar to post more than one line per thread. And when he does, its nothing but negative. I have yet to read anything positive from this one... Elliot, in over a year. Last I looked, in the last year, reader numbers online have tripled. There have been a good many stories that have been reported here that people can't read anywhere else. And the commentary...

Some of us simply have too much time on our hands. Elliot is one of them. Just to facile to admit it. These are good stories, folks, with the commentary often telling the story that's between the lines.

Lorne McCuaig
Revelstoke