Fasten your seatbelts :

Our own School District recently provided some interesting enrollment numbers.

They stated that this years' (i) Total 2007 Kindergarten enrollment as well as (ii) the size of the overall 2007 Grade 12 graduating class.

The numbers indicate about a differential of over 30%....ie the district -wide 2007 Kindergarten classes totals are about 2/3 the size of the total 2007 Grade 12 Graduating class. This is simply the 2007 differential, and other years , most likely , would show much the same basic trend .

The implications are not only just declining enrollment, but ones of major proportions.

I don't consider this an anomaly, I think this declining enrollment is a major long term trend, and based on what has actually happened historically in the past . Yes we had an enrollment decline in the 1980's, and this was attributed to economic downturn, followed by post Expo 86 economic upturn and increased school enrollment.

However, the enrollment decline in the LAST decade was in the midst of a strong economy, and of which we would seem to historically expect INCREASED enrollment.

Our school district had sold some closed school's years ago, but mainly due to new schools built as nearby development progressed and demographics shifted... but INCREASED enrollment had previously been the norm regardless. One closed school was re-opened after a short closure due to, ironically, the surrounding neighbourhood area becoming a relatively more affordable residential area and families moving in.

However, over the past 3 years, approx. 6 schools have closed as a" Public School" use, and are being rented for other uses. Other schools still open have enrollments at lower than full capacity ie fair numbers of empty classrooms in some still open schools .

What is rather galling is that over the past decade almost all our high schools have been rebuilt.., or had major renovations, in fact we are currently building a new High School. Similarly, most of the elementary schools have had renovations, many of them simply aesthetics-based.

The Campbell Gov't recently signs a contract with the BCTF after fear mongering of teacher shortages.

Yep, as usual, do the MATH , makes sense to someone out there , I'm sure.

Regardless, other than Cities where trends show their own " Inner Cities " areas show lower income groups tend to reside and help maintain inner city school enrollment, as well as other areas such as Surrey apparently showing increased enrollment...its looking more and more like children are becoming an expensive luxury for many in society , which is quite a sad reflection.

Falling enrollment

This article fails to mention a significant reason behind the "low fertility rates"--abortion. Canada aborts about 105,000 babies per year. Had they been born and filled classrooms there would be a need for 4000 more teachers/yr plus who knows how many more support staff. The irony is that the teachers' unions are all pro-abortion so I'm not going to shed any tears over their future job losses. And because of their intransigence on this and other issues that social conservative parents are concerned about, the attractiveness of private schools continues to grow. I expect to see the trend increase in BC once the Corren agreement is implemented because SC parents are likely to take steps to protect their kids from the ideological bullying that will be coming with that package.

Quote:its looking more and

It's a downward spiral. People now can't afford to support themselves, or they're just a couple of paycheques away from poverty. Kids are expensive, therefore a number of people are delaying or forgoing having them in favour of keeping their heads above water. I'm in favor of decreasing the human population overall, but Vancouver seems to be getting exponentially more expensive and less congenial for anyone to live in. It's taking on all the characteristics that I hate most about resort places like Whistler and me-first cities like LA, and losing touch with the people who actually live here. If I could arrange to work completely from home, I would leave the Lower Mainland and never, ever look back - even though I've lived here all my life and I used to love it.

I still think distributed education is a godsend *when it is properly implemented*. I'm not a big fan of the traditional school system - I think trying to force every kid to conform to the exact same curriculum and expectations is futile at best and damaging to the kids at worst. Schools have become babysitters and jails for kids who aren't learning anything because the system doesn't engage them - it dictates what they should be interested in. I think keeping rural schools open but making the teacher's role more of a facilitator in helping kids get a solid foundation in basic education and explore the areas that they're most suited for would work far better. Why should we force a kid who is mechanically gifted to struggle with upper level French? Why force a similarly talented writer to waste time and effort on learning calculus?

An example: The kids are still using the exact same social studies textbook that I used when 15 years ago. No changes to the text at all, yet the way we perceive history has changed radically since it was published. What's the point?

oh, please.

Yeah, and there would also be a good number of those 105,000 kids probably living in povery, abused, or neglected, and a big jump in the demand for those social services that all the smug SC coalition says aren't necessary. Have you ever personally adopted or supported an unwanted kid who was born into poverty or a victim of abuse? Do you support welfare, decent childcare or early childhood education? I thought not. Ironic how socially conservative parents scream that their beliefs are being destroyed by people who don't share them, and in the same breath try to impose them on everyone else. You can't have it both ways.

This thread isn't meant to be an abortion debate, so that's all I'm saying on this.

citizen ruth

well said Rhea. Reminds me of my favourite line from the movie Citizen Ruth (I'm paraphrasing here): anit-choicers seem to care about children only while they are in the womb. Ready to account for your bigotry dolphin? Is this a family value you teach to your children?

More choices available ...

I think there's another aspect to the issue of declining enrolment in rural schools that is passed over rather quickly in this article.

The internet and I-net-based distance learning, and increasing funding provided by government for Inet-based learning has brought some new choices to people living out in rural regions that they otherwise would not have at a local public school ('public' bring a euphemism for a BCTF-controlled school setting).

These choices include signing up with a religious-oriented online school (which are subject to government inspection and criteria if they are seeking gov funding), they can choose a selection of online, conventional and non-conventional courses [completed at home and available through orgs like BCEdOnline and a rapidly-growing list of providers [like curriki.org which is hoisting free courseware from around the world]), and they can enroll in an innovative (secular) program that offers a different approach to supporting learning.

This last choice happens to be a program I co-founded 5 years ago - SelfDesign Learning Community - and I profer it here to highlight my thesis: namely, that adding learning/schooling choices to many people and families living in rural areas has also been welcomed. I also think that offering more choices beyond conventional schooling is a hallmark of our democracy and should be recognized as such.

Assuredly, rural communities have wide-ranging opinions about such developments and will and are facing choices about which schools can remain open in the face of annual budget (i.e. demographic) realities. The discussions such choices engender, community by community, also underscore democratic process and, while everyone may not be pleased with the results (i.e. some school closures), this reflects in some way a democratization of learning/schooling that I consider a positive, progressive development.
- Michael Maser, Director, SDLC

Speaking of numbers

It may be worth mentioning that according to the Min. of Ed.'s own numbers the ratio of teachers lost from the system compared to the number of students lost between 2001 and 2005 averaged 1:8. In other words, one teacher for every eight students. Many of these were of the "non-enrolling" categories (teacher-librarians, counsellors, psychologists, etc.), but certainly not all.

I mention this only because, while dropping enrollment is certainly a factor in the funding of public education, it is also a very handy platform to stand on when aiming for the further destabilization, underfunding, and undermining of public education - especially outside the megopolis factory model of schooling.....

We have a single mother

We have a single mother friend with a 11 year old daughter, who's never been in any school and enrolled in some kind of an official program, where she doesn't even have to do any exams.

It may not work for everybody, or any child, but this little girl is one of the brightest we've known, building up her own library and so on.

I sarted school in an impoverished European country during the depression, in 1933, with 94 kids in my grade 1 class and a teacher with a cane.

Enjoyed the first 4 grades but when I went to an academic highschool, I was a disaster, barely scraping through the years, but my family insisted that I stay.

I did, as I wantd to be an artist and matriculation was the only way to get into the academy. Without that, nobody was even permited to call him, or herself an artist, by law.

At the same time, I was devouring books, on any subject, except school subjects, by the hundreds, continuing all my life.

Now, with all this expensive education forced on people, how is it that we have such a large percentage of illiterates ?

We had an immigrant kid here, brought up by a friend, who just finished grade 9 in North Van. but couldn't speak enough English to ask for a glass of water. How did he pass ?

Ed Deak.

Go Homeschoolers!

Let the brick-and-mortar, fenced in, with guards (teachers) and wardens (principals) child prisons die with the factory age...

Go Homeschoolers!

Ed:

I see you were "old school" much like many of us, even if we may be a generation or two apart.

This is H-U-G-E issue, but always interesting , if not overall fascinating, to compare "life and experience " notes. My own notes include myself going through the very same BC School District that our own children are currently enrolled in.

In my pre-university days...the Public School System stated that approx. 10% of the Grade 12 graduates would naturally gravitate to University. However, AT University, one Prof pointed out in a 300+ student lecture hall that that we should each look to our left..then to our right.... and the person in front of us...and he said only ONE out of you FOUR will graduate with a degree.

Nowadays, as one Trade School teacher I talked to said , a large majority of parents apparently want their kids to be a quasi- "Rocket Scientist" ....ie to go to University. In my view that's bad in the Big Picture.

When my children came home from elementary school , I observe a very diluted curriculum than one I myself can quite vividly remember. Modern Textbooks are like comic books, multi - coloured and into very gray subjective Q and A.

EXAMPLE: Recently...We have been looking at geometry concepts in " ORIGAMI " - like terms, total nonsensical mainstream IM-practical and irrelevant BS.

A good textbook, which we used to have , would define the chapter, a brief outline , explain a concept, give many examples and then provide questions to see if you have absorbed the material. The entire book was organized as a continuum.

As one Prof once said, his job, as a teacher, was "....(i) to tell you what he was going to talk about(preview) ..(ii)tell it to you (lecture), ...(iii) then tell you what he just told you(review /summary ) ..."

I find most textbooks deficient in filling in the blanks, much is omitted...poor reference base in the early "explanatory/lecture " part of the textbook chapters. If this disconnect is frustrating to parents who learned this material waaaaay back.., it must be even WORSE on the kids.

The basic MODERN Public Education view is to push the kids through, FAILURE was NOT an option... for fulfillment of the education fad" touch -feely self - esteem" mantra. Without trying to use " schools = factory m-o-d-e-l" too much, in my view the modern public schools with this " no -failure " policy mantra as almost "written in stone" simply produces a deficient student "product" and concurrently encourages poor methods etc. of producing the same student end -product.

I am tired of hearing busy parents saying ..."oh ...gotta go..off to the TUTOR at Kumon..or Sylvan.."... or others.

1 + 1 = 2 .... capisce' ?

NEXT !

However, the Private Schools seemed to have avoided this slippery slope edu-fad path...and by and large maintained the same methodology as the " old school", and have line ups to get in.

Go "figure".

Regardless:...My advice, in hindsight, is that if you can afford a Non PUBLIC School GO- FOR- IT !!!...and NO, they are not all elite...many working class parents access them ,... in fact the majority of the student and parents at many of these Private Schools are from your basic working class in society...and I know many of them that have transferred their children from the Public School system...as well as Home- Schooled.

" Home Schooling " seems to have many success stories...which I find VERY ironic. We aren't allowed to do say MD or DDS work,without formal accreditation or belonging to a profesional college etc....but apparently the Gov't has NO problem with a lowly parent with NO formal Teacher training to actually formally educate their own child at home.

REALLY...What does THAT say about the Public Education Sytem ?

maestro....when I was a

maestro....when I was a starving refugee in Austria, after ww2, I noticed that many, if not most, of the academics were living in filth, their children dirty and starving, always moaning and groaning about what they have lost.

On the other hand, tradespeople usually found both work, no matter where, extra food and clean quarters no matter what the circumstances. Their ability to think constructively and work with their hands gave them a totally different mental outlook.

That's when I decided that no matter how much education I may get one day, I will learn a trade.

I got the best education, free, thanks to the British governemnt, but when we came to Canada in 1955, I apprenticed with an old English cabinetmaker, at the age of 28.

Never went back to academics and insisted that our children will also learn trades. They did and are doing OK. They had the chance, but neither of them wanted to go to university.

On the other hand, in my childhood, schools had no trade training, or workshops and even laboratories for us. When my children were going to school, Killarney High, in Vancouver, and later my son in Williams Lake, I was amazed by the infrastructure and potentials they had, we could never dream about. I even used to teach adult night classes in woodwork and arts in the highschool shops and classrooms.

When it comes to compulsory education, I'm watching children in the same families, where one may be a bookworm, all the others care about is hockey and skateboarding. They would be happy to stay illiterate.

So what is the solution? I think, compulsory education is not a bad thing, but the dwindling school enrollment should be used for less kids per teacher and also to search for the real talents of children, to encourage them to go into fields where they would be most happy, creative and beneficial both to themselves and society.

And Canada does have the wealth to do this in the most expensive way.

Just make the thieves pay for their keep and shut them up.

Ed Deak.

basic education

Hear, hear. I completely support compulsory education. However, the current education system is based on the ideal that the "best" students go to university and get degrees and white collar jobs. That doesn't fit with the current reality any more.
Basic compulsory education should teach the skills that everyone needs to function in society. Critical basic subjects such as literacy, numeracy, basic self-care skills (learning to fill out a job application, basic nutrition, personal money management, health/sex ed), being a responsible involved citizen, critical thinking and other practical life skills could be supplemented with exposure to a wide range of subjects through elective survey courses. Students could then pick and choose subjects they had an aptitude for and start specializing. Courses could be offered online, shared between groups of students from across districts, or shared between age groups.

Of course, pigs will fly before this ever happens, which is why a lot of educated non-religious people are choosing to homeschool or partially homeschool their kids, or considering private schooling.

For Rhea

You suggest that if children had been born instead of aborted they would be more likely to be abused/neglected. In fact, the opposite is true. Research done at Bowling Green University in Ohio found that women who had had at least one abortion were more likely than women who never had an abortion to have been charged with child abuse or neglect. Given the lengthy waiting list of infant adoptions and the tremendous expense people go to for foreign adoptions/in vitro procedures, etc. there is no such thing as an unwanted child.
We simply cannot sustain our society with a birthrate of 1.5 children per woman (which, I believe, is still dropping). We need the workers of tomorrow (who, of course, will be the classroom students of tomorrow first) and the future taxpayers. Providing more support for "problem" pregnancies rather than encouraging termination should be higher on the government's agenda. To engage in a discussion of dwindling class sizes without even mentioning the impact of 10,000 annual BC abortions ignores a major contributing factor.

A real red herring - in my view

Abortion and population replacement…and other things.

This is actually a complicated subject.

I think it might be wise to just leave the abortion factor out of the equation. The data on how women who've had abortions behave toward their other children is seriously questioned in academic circles, as is the research which points to a connection between Roe v Wade and a subsequent drop in the rates of crime.

You can read about it here:

http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/barro/bw/bw99_09_27.pdf

And there was a long piece in the New York Times magazine a couple weeks ago about the effects on women of having had an abortion.

Is There A Post-Abortion Syndrome?

January 21, 2007
By EMILY BAZELON (NYT) 8255 words

Unfortunately you can't get it free on line any longer. If you're interested in reading it, let me know and I'll arrange to send you a word copy of it.

If the government, any government, wishes to encourage more people to have families, they'd be wise to follow Quebec's example and set up a decent and universal and affordable system of child care - among other things.

Re-fighting old battles about personal moral issues like abortion, or gay marriage for that matter, is a mug's game.

Sorry - human beings are complicated.

Expanded horizons:

I think much of the problem is that a more well rounded education is apparently shunned by many new Canadians.

While I myself was on an academic track, we also had Shop courses(ie Woodwork, Metalwork, Drafting. Electricity etc.) as part of the core curriculum, and these and other shop courses offered as options in later grades . We had one course called Power Mechanics and I stripped down Dad's's old Briggs and Stratton 4 cycle lawnmower engine, right down to the basic parts cleaned it, re-honed the cylinder, etc. new rings, rebuilt the carburetor, etc. etc. put it all back together and there not much more satisfying than to hear the re-incarnated engine rev -up again, a product of one's own handiwork.

Unfortunately the Public Education system began to cater to the Rocket Scientist mentality, school shops are being closed, downsized, and centralized. Some kids have to travel to other schools to take shop courses not offered at their own schools.

We had one Grade 12 course that would build bungalows, wire and plumb them as well...and they would be moved....but no more..

Now the poor kids apparently have to get much of this same basic skill via attending a trade school, and all the added cost.

Now they are crying for Tradesmen, yet I don't hear much of a cry for Rocket Scientists. Something is seriously missing in the translation to the real world....and at times I think "the system" is meant to keep people in a suspended sense of NON- reality.

Go to the schools to see what is taught

Most BC schools offer a very diverse range of curricula and methods for delivering it. Most teachers are well-educated to teach their students. My local high school stands on it's head to try to get parents involved, to invite parents to be a part of their children's education and their lives at school. The school traditionally gets the parent(s) of about 15% of their students to show up for parent night or open houses - even when those parents have been phoned twice and have twice agreed to attend! About 20% show when free food is offered, as well. The children of the parents who do get involved generally work harder to do their best and generally have reasonably good interactions with their teachers.

The students at the high school can learn everything from basic woodworking and home ec skills to homebuilding and management of a cafeteria; from basic lawn-mower mechanics and metal-work to full rebuilds and fabrications of cars and trucks. There are computer programming, graphics and animation courses as well as all manner of hands-on art in 2-D and 3-D. There are video productions and stage productions and set-building courses. And, there are all of the academic courses offered in both French and English. The teachers take pride in their work and their teaching; they attend workshops to improve what they do.

The students are have their literacy and numeracy skills assessed (and remediated, if necessary) on a regular basis. The school is in the worst health region in BC. Many families are transient. Many families just barely get by. Many parents look to escape through alcohol and drugs. Regardless of how good a school is or tries to be, it needs families to commit to their children. It needs families to be stable. Home needs to be a place of warmth and kindness and strength. When things are not structured and nurturing at home, it is very difficult to undo the that damage in a few hours in school.

I think we should convert the the extra spaces available in schools to places where our aging population goes for recreation and to act as surrogate grand-parents etc. Some schools could become senior citizen's centres and some could have a senior's wing or a couple of rooms. Retirees could help with story-time and story-telling. They could help with pottery, etc. They could be providing so much, and their helth would improve by their being active. Children need to learn empathy for old people and the way to make that happen is to put them together. Some schools could become old-folks' homes. After-all, schools are built solid enough and many have layouts similar to regular retirement centres. Change a little plumbing here and there and we may have something that can be of use to all. I am going to formalize this idea and send it to the conversation on health. Think anyone will listen?

home schooling/abortion

Regarding the widely touted benefits of home schooling: it works if the parent in charge can actually meet the standards set by the public system (which are low enough, God knows).

Having taught for 27 years, I have often found that home-schooled students are either deficient in much of the knowledge that would be expected for students in their grade level, or they are so locked into some parochial religious agenda that they are shocked when they are expected to examine critically some other way of looking at the world. Some manage to adapt and come through their senior secondary experience fine. Others remain marginally achieving.

While I believe it futile and immoral to support or promote abortion (surely it should be a kind of last resort), nonetheless, it's existence has not been a total blight on society. An interesting study done in the US in the past few years correlates strongly the drop in crime rates in the US with the passage of Roe vs. Wade, theorizing that many of the abused, neglected, etc. children that would have been born under conditions prior to Roe vs. Wade (a sizable number of which would have become serious offenders in society, often after a life of lesser offences), simply were not born.

This is not an argument that we should be embracing abortion as social policy. But it may suggest that harsh as it may seem, there may be some if not many cases in which such an event was or would be preferable to the alternative.

BC Economy Thriving

But the working people (the ones most likely to have kids)can't afford to live in this "thriving economy". And there are no assurances offered in this "thriving economy" for any kind of longevity or security. In fact, trade school attendance is decreasing, even in the face of "boom times".

There is little confidence in the future.

TO: Sharing is Good:

Yes, I agree,I too am very impressed with my children's High School.

My comments earlier were directed at the Elementary schools, and via comparing notes with parents whose children attend other elementary schools.

We have to lay In the bed we've made for ourselves.

In my opinion the Public Educational system that we have in BC at this time is a direct reflection of the condition of the Province as a whole. All of the factors being debated, demographic changes, lower birth rates etc are parts of the picture that has led to drastic drops in enrolment.
Underlying these shifts, and the real problem is that BC's economy is reactionary and not self determined. After 150 years our economy is still driven by exports of raw materials, our economy is tugged along or held back by market forces outside of our control. With the correct political and corporate will things could be different.
This province is blessed with deposits of Iron ore, coal, natural gas, and limestone; these are the basis of a steel industry. And what about a Plastics and chemical industrial base, we could have that as well! for those you need Natural gas or oil, limestone and salt water, and electricity. We could be exporting steel to Asia, and consumer goods to all of North America. We have the talent and business smarts her to have a World-Class vibrant economy and the stability that flows down to infrastructure like schools, hospitals and roads.
We're doing it to ourselves. When you promote Vancouver Island and the interior as retirement paradises what can we expect. Don't get me wrong, I love seniors but you cant build a robust economy on immigration. Apart from maybe a home and car purchase most retires don't buy the volume or variety of goods and services that a working family with children do, more importantly they don't have children to send to school.
As an insider I know there's a lot wrong at the school district level. Against good advice some districts built schools the y didn't really need because the money was available.
Most Principals and VP's have a lucrative contract with their districts resulting in schools having a principal and a couple of VP's, as the numbers drop they spend part of their day teaching. Apart from displacing teachers it can short-change the kids if the admins have been away from the classroom for a while.

Stephen Dalley
Secondary Technical Teacher,
Seasonal Faculty. UBC.

Saltchucksteve

I've often thought that the school districts who've tried to balance falling enrollment by enticing a lot of students from Asia who pay a huge fee for access to the system are also making a big mistake.

You're much closer to the schools themselves than I am but I'd be interested if that's the case - or is it a good policy and a great source of extra income.

I certainly have no problem with immigrants per se but turning schools into cash cows by attracting paying customers while the other problems in the system aren't being addressed at all seems a strange notion to me.

I know some districts pursue this option aggressively but I wonder if it helps the concept of the school as part of the community very much - and it can't be great for the kids who're leaving their homes either.

No sense

The world population in 1800 was about 1 billion.
When I was born in the 1970s it was about 4 billion.
In 1990, it was around 5.2.
It is now about 6.6... and counting (well, minus those abortions).

So... how does this make sense:
"We simply cannot sustain our society with a birthrate of 1.5 children per woman.
Never mind sustaining society, we simply cannot sustain LIFE ON THIS PLANET with the population figures above.

A previous president of Japan, freaking out over the low birth rate, said that women should stay home and have babies. Not entirely sure how Japanese women took to being told what to do with their bodies/their choices, but they do currently have THE LOWEST FERTILITY RATE ON THE PLANET.

So please, Dolphin, get over it. No one likes being preached to.

Nechako/Lakes and teachers

The Nechako Lakes district is having some heaves right now as the bug wood declines, but we will again have a surge when the oil and gas drilling comes on line. That assuming that lieberal dolt Dion doesn't get power.

As for the BCTF, I could care less. With the bulk of the teachers appearing as though they are without skills as English teachers, I cannot support them at all.

My measure of a teacher is in a couple little English oddities. The three 'there's' is first. The use of "there", "their" and "they're" is perhaps the most abused by teachers. It makes me nuts to think that this kind of sloppiness is found in someone that is supposed to teach the children the correct way of doing things?

How about "night"? How often do you see "nite" used now?

And finally the misuse of "than" and "then".

If those that are called teachers cannot grasp the most basic of rules of grammer, then I don't want them in a class room. And it's good for people home schooling. Most home school packages are superior to any academic packages available to public school kids. So when/if a child that was home scholled goes into the public system, they usually excell above their peers academically, but lag in some of the social skills needed.
The thing I have a hard time with home schooling is the lack of interaction with other kids. They need that.

Fii

Fii, it is a sad commentary on our planet when industrialized societies have to spend so much of their time working to support a particular lifestyle. However that's life.

Non-industrialized nations where poverty and starvation coupled with horrific disease, are where your blooming populations are. And their seems to be a need for some cultures to produce males rather than females, so they continue on. In China where having a male the first time around is a good thing, and where having a female tends toward infant disposal, the government decides who lives and dies. India is another instance where the sex of a child seems to tell that child's worth. In Africa? Is it just to have enough babies to guard against the odds of infant mortality due to diseases?

Industrialized nations where lifestyle and health care are good, has long produced fewer babies.

And on the issue of food production, there is actually lots of food if you consider how much is produced and thrown away because you didn't buy a big enough quota, or your carrot is crooked or something. Food we got. Unfortunately waste we got more of...

Theories and Realities :

We can all muse, theorize and postulate on the school enrollment decline and it's many reasons...

However, it is a Reality/FACT .

A few years ago when our own School District commenced with it's first round of school closures, they made mention of a rather sophisticated program that assists them in making ACCURATE projections not only yearly, but long -term as well.

At a district wide meeting for parents, they showed the enrollment projections indicated a decline for 10+ years...but after that? ( I am beginning to suspect, and via a previous post I made , that School District's projections are based on ,and start at, the school district's overall Kindergarten class and that sets the tone for the next 12 years when that given "demographic class" graduates. Maybe someone could clarify this)

Our children's elementary school is a case in point on the declining enrollment front. It sits in the midst of a massive urban densification program...Single Family houses are being replaced with Apartment blocks, High Rises, Condos, but our own enrollment in the midst of this has flatlined.

The school has for years cringed in anticipation of hordes of children each September for the last 6 - 7 years,... when this massive development commenced , with the presumption their school enrollment will be proportional to the overall population growth.

It appears that even in this relatively "more affordable housing" produced by this urban densification the evidence STILL suggests child-less / " No kids " owners.

Again this is a major T-R-E-N-D, not some minor hiccup of an anomaly. It appears BC wide...that is a huge statistical base and it is BOTH an Urban and Rural phenomenon.

I may submit a few theories on reasons for this in a future post.

I'm writing a short series

I'm writing a short series in the Gold River Record on how the FTA and NAFTA have been and now the NAU is being fraudulently pushed on us and dug out a presentation I wrote in June 1993 to the Parliamentary Committee on the NAFTA, that never came, because Chretien signed it in secret, without any public consultations.

Here are 3, 14 year old short captions on education:

"Free enterprise is not the rule of capital, but the freedom to develop businesses and the free choice of employment. Forcing people, either with arms, or through the perceived power of money, into planned occupations is a denial of human rights.

The plans of big business to move into the schools to brainwash children into the concept of permanent war, now called "competition", has been practiced by religions and aristocracies throughout history, creating more and more violence.

Their demand for more and higher education has nothing to do with the enhancement of knowledge for the benefit of life on Earth, but with the creation of programmamble drones. Military and religious rules always used the same tactics to maintain power and then fell to the demand for self determination created by knowledge"

I sincerely hope that I was right, and this will happen before the new aristocracy starts implanting microchips into people to make them programmable for "careers" .

I grew up in and have seen how dictatorships work and can see it coming here with the "mergers", or rather the collectivization of the economy into the same politbureau hands, under a different flag, and until this is stopped and the aristocracy in charge of capital is kicked in the ass, there's no hope for better education, or for the human race.

Watch for the Feb.23 meeting in Ottawa, hammering another nail into the coffin of Canadian independence and self determination.

Ed Deak.

I'm torn

between pointing out the spelling error or the sentence fragment in the latest instalment of Pot Meet Kettle

G West: I Agree

Re: Foreign Students

This is a trend I don't agree with.
I can't identify any broader societal benefit emanating from it, but in fact only for the benefit of chosen few.

This expanded discussion has made me surmise that all the mega Capital expenditures that have been made to upgrade/ renovate existing schools and build new ones is simply for marketing purposes, both (i) internally(mind- candy for local Voters) and (ii) externally, ie to attract Foreign Students...who I understand pay approx. $8,000 - $10,000 per year, depending .

Our own School District apparently has a party whose specific role is to travel to offshore countries and be a recruiter/be a salesman to attract foreign students. ( there is a side bar to this case...an old boys club scenario meets a past major legal case...perhaps discuss another day).

If the student enrollments decline, and all indications are that they will, for several years, , the dynamics are no different than say a mill closure, or department store etc.....ie not enough "raw material" or "clientele". That IS unfortunate but this IS the reality.

QUESTION: What happens in the real world???

ANSWER = Downsizing or closures..

This REALITY must be sending shudders through the education professionals right up into the Universities

How do they try to bridge this?

It appears this gap will be bridged to some degree by importing the " raw material /clientele " from Offshore with Foreign Students.

In my view...this declining enrollment situation should be looked at as an internal/ domestic matter and adjustments made accordingly.

We tend to have Education and Health Care as the major focuses and directions of our tax dollars... as represented by their lion's shares of Tax Dollars within Provincial and Federal budgets etc.

Has anyone not made the correlation that if we have less students... we will have less workers via these less students.... hence a growing older population ....and thus the overall Gov't budgets must thus shift, in basic equilibrium fashion to both reflect and accomodate this new trend?

The new demographic dynamics from (i) Education ( LESS student clientele ) TO (ii) Health
Care ( MORE clientele ) as our population concurrently ages and will have more seniors who live longer and will have greater impact on Health Care costs.

In essence, should the Tax Dollars that were previously directed into now "lower demand" Education now moreso be direct into "greater demand" Health Care?

Given my understanding of the funding formula for BC Students, which is approx. $5800 per student, compared with say $10,000 from Foreign students...the differential is approx. $4,000. Is this extra funding " worth it " ? Does it actually trickle down to the benefit of the domestic BC Student?

How does the existence of a foreign student tip the scales re: Class - sizes ? Do they create various interesting domino - effect scenarios ?

Do just enough of them keep a teacher or teachers on the payroll? ...ie not all classes in all schools are at their maximum legislated sizes ?

If not for the foreign students embellishment of enrollments numbers, I can see situation where perhaps only (2) teachers would be needed instead of (3).

Thus, does this ultimately lead to featherbedding ? Edu- Mafia old -boys -club -job- security YET using taxpayer- funded Public facilities to do so ?

The PUBLIC School serves the PUBLIC and should be directly proportional to internal and domestic PUBLIC demand ONLY.

If everyone else has to be beholden to the dynamics of the real world, then all facets of society should be equally beholden...that's far more equitable and democratic.

Otherwise we simply foster , incubate and ultimately facilitate another discrepancy, disparity and IN -equality, we have enough already, many of which aren't fixed,.... and we, as a society, certainly don't need ANY more... SVP.

I'm glad you brought that up

In fact, the situation is far worse than most people imagine. I'm not sure how many districts have set up pay for school programs like the ones I mentioned earlier or how many foreign students are actually in classes in public schools but it is certainly a consideration that needs to by looked at in terms of classroom conditions and the utilization of teachers' time and resources.

However, I think you'd have to talk to someone in Murray Coell's ministry to get the whole picture as well. Not all of this problem is subsumed in the morass of education in this province and within the walls of traditional bricks and mortar schools.

Coell has licensed all sorts of private educational institutions - most billed as ‘BC Schools’ in their advertising bumpf - to which hundreds of Asian students are attracted each year. These kids come over here for 3 month stints and are herded to and from storefront operations run by 'educators' with questionable qualifications - two of these operations (one of them alleging to grant degrees) have recently been shut down in Vancouver. Nevertheless, there are scores of other such 'schools' operating beneath the radar and complying (if they do at all) with minimum standards.

I have no doubt that the parents of these kids (some of whom I know are paying in the neighbourhood of $4G/month for a 'Canadian' education) have a very different idea of what these kinds of programs are actually offering their children here in Canada.

These kids, many of them in the range of 10 - 12 years old, are living in communal conditions (which so far as I know are often in violation of municipal zoning and fire regulations) sprinkled throughout residential communities in the city where I live.

This too is education in British Columbia.

Gotta run: but...

An interesting development/s :

...may interest any/all others on PAC's and with children in school( which via the BC School Act automatically makes you a PAC Member).

I'll try to post it later today.

Selling a Canadian Education.

Please excuse the typo's in my earlier post. It is unwise to rely on a web based spell checker late at night.

Selling the promise of a Canadian education to parents in Korea, China and Japan is something that BC tax supported education should not be doing.

Those countries generally do not have government supported pension or retirement plans so parents invest heavily in the children as a means of later life support. Many families mortgage their property of borrow heavily from private sources to finance the foreign education of One of their offspring.

Most BC boards in the business use off-shore agents to promote their programs and arrange travel and government documents and commissions can be as high as 20%. Apart from the tuition cost "Home Stay" with a Canadian family can be up to $1,500 to $2,000 a month, it's no wonder that "hosts" want a couple of students at a time.

It would seem to be a conflict for the students to stay with teachers or administrators, this is often the case. If they are staying for more than a year then they pay through the summer and often have to baby-sit and clean house for no reduction in fees.

In order to excel at home and become the golden child, the youth are pushed to the max to achieve high grades and attend Saturday school; as well as late night study sessions and cramming. Depression and even suicide are not uncommon. When the off-shore students arrive in BC some suffer culture shock as they are placed in basically "white" home stays. BC students have freedoms and don't study as hard as their Asian counterparts. With a lack of supervision the ambition and finely tuned study skills often evaporate, leading the student into questionable and unsafe behaviors. I know of cases from my own teaching where talented and bright foreign students have fallen off the path, (or chosen another one)failed the year and when forced to return home, killing their parents hopes and dreams for future security.

As BC tax payers should we be a part of this sham, created by a heartless government that seems to be bent on destroying public education in BC.

I say NO.

Stephen Dalley.
Comox

The blessed "DOGWOOD edu- currency

Totally against either PUBLIC or PRIVATE institutions bringing in Foreign Students...if these are both costing and displacing domestic BC students...who are then simply pushed to the back of the line.

Maybe SALTCHUCKSTEVE can inform us more on what I was lead to believe,( and of which I also can't get a straight answer from the BC Ministry of Education ), that if the Foreign student obtains their "DOGWOOD" ie Grade 12 DIPLOMA here in a BC School, in either a Private OR Public school..they have EQUAL access to post secondary , no different than any other domestic BC student who may have been here in the BC education system from K to 12...

Ie IS this simply a "jump the queue " method for Foreign Students to acquire quicker and more direct access to TaxPayer -funded Post Secondary?

My understanding is they may only need to complete Grade 12 here in BC to qualify , having taken the rest of their schooling elsewhere ....but maybe someone can clarify this.

But the destruction of

But the destruction of public education, not only in BC, but all over the world, is part of the master plan, so that all phases of life, from babyhood, will come under the programming control of a certain sector.

Tv commercials are not selling products, but so called "consumer ideology".

I've seen the same brainwash happen under the nazis, communists and now capitalists. All proclaiming themselves "free".

By the way, overpopulation is, for the most part, caused by the lack of social services in many parts of the world, where people must breed kids so they won't starve when old.

Ed Deak.

Forign Students and Post Secondary.

As far as I know, unless they have landed immigrant status they will pay tuition as a foreign student and up to 4 times as much as the resident rate.
What gives them the advantage is that they are applying from inside Canada and do not have to do the battery of language tests in their home country prior to admission. They can also do first or second year at a private or government college and then transfer into a University.
Clear as mud.

I've seen some of their papers -

- at the 2nd & 3rd year University level...commerce faculty

You don't want to know, trust me: mud is clearer.

School enrolment down. So?

So teachers are no longer guaranteed a job for life. welcome to the 21st century. What, exactly is the point of this article? The changing Canadian demographics have been predicted for years. Yet every September, school districts are surprised that their classrooms are half full. Oh my god! We actually have to CHANGE? That is a TRAGEDY! And we thought the gravy train would go on forever.

This is an expensive country in which to live. The very students that are planning a career by going to college are being penalised with home-sized mortgages before they graduate, and we expect them to buy a house, have kids and work three jobs to pay off their debts? I don't think so. Canada is a family-hostile country which has recruited professionals abroad for so long that we are SHOCKED when we finally have to grow our own talent.

As usual, Tyee commentary is trite, and without constructive ideas. Here are a few ways to fill BC's schools, or at least plan for their closure.

1. Make post-graduate education affordable, so kids can get their diplomas and degrees without selling their lives into slavery for ten years.

2. Sell the benefits of a Canadian education abroad. BC Schools charge $10,000 per year per student for high school registration. That pays for programs for Canadian students. We should see more international students in BC.

3. Close those schools that are not viable, and stop all the belly-aching. It isn't fun, but if it has to be done, why agonise over it?

4. Convert those closed schools into low-cost housing for the poor and for the aged. As the population ages, we need every facility for our accomodation. Converting unused schools into senior homes is a natural. Let's get it done. The School districts can either sell the properties, or lease them out. for sure, there wil be another baby boom in 20 years.

All we ever do in BC is complain. There isn't enough low cost housing, there are too many schools. It is time to shut and bite the bullet. Every problem is an opportunity.

With only nine weeks of work per year, our legislators ought to be working on NEW IDEAS instead of recycling old grudges.

Many rural schools are

Many rural schools are closed. They, obviously, couldn't be converted for old people's, or low rent homes, but little kids now have to go on 2-3 hour bus rides every day.

This is "cost efficient" in the warped minds of our politicians.

Should they hire teachers for a few? By all means. One single truckload of copper ore that goes down our road, feeding "foreign investors" would pay for at least 10 teachers, and there are dozens on the road.

Foreign investors bring nothing to this, or any other country, but teachers are, or at least should be doing valuable jobs, worth far more than any carpetbagger.

Ed Deak.

Oh, please II...

Most pro lifers are wingnuts. Many of them are bigoted, hypocritical, white supremists with thier own version of what life on earth should be. The rest of them are asshol*s. Why would anyone listen to their poison? Oh ya, religion.... If these people were truly interested in saving lives they could, as mentioned above, start with those already here. How does this escape their little minds?

Sorry, that's one issue that makes me go blind.... Emma....?

On Ed

On Education:
As School Trustee, I would immediately plow under all sports fields on school property, and implement a program such as 4H. Kids would grow food and raise chickens for school and home use. Kids would go home with organic dirt under their fingernails and they would appreciate nature just a little bit more. Maybe just enough to turn the tide in our favour. Some school closures would make good shops and food processing plants for distribution through out the community. Lots of lessons to be learned when you get into the food business. Now, about those trades....

Interesting idea clubofrome

And a good one. The kind of thing Alice Waters has been doing so successfully in Berkeley.

http://www.chezpanissefoundation.org/

Could it be...??? Rare sighting on THE TYEE

Sounds like a REDNECK LEFTIE with back- to -back posts above G West.

Now THAT RARE entity we MUST protect .... and NOT abort,... not even retro-actively.

Rating: Article 3.5, comments 3.0

Rating: Article 3.5, comments 3.0

fewer students, more

fewer students, more teachers, and the bctf is still whining, bitching and complaining. isn't life grand on the left coast?

Such a shame, I thought you'd missed a march El!

I knew it was too good to be true. You've just dragged that comment rating down to 2.0.

What a shame.

Rural Closures

[b]Many rural schools are closed. They, obviously, couldn't be converted for old people's, or low rent homes, but little kids now have to go on 2-3 hour bus rides every day.

Boards will prefer to close rural schools first because they can collect the extra grant the get for operating them for up to Two full years. They could remain open if partnerships to cover costs could be reached with a local library board or community centre. Windsor Ontario has schools that are partnered with just such groups.

When BC boards can collect operating grants on closed schools where's the incentive to look for alternatives.

A Message from Alberta: Hey Buddy, who's boat you tryin' to rock? I agree in full, but I think you might be taking a bite out of some politicians ass.
Especially being an "employee" of one of the biggest Asian scammers in BC.
Paul

The easiest way to cut the education budget...

The public system has lost 50,000 students and the private system has picked up 7,500? I guess I know where BCTF teachers will be looking for new engagements once the public system makes them redundant. And won't they be surprised by the expectations in their new working environments - like that they will have to work full time to receive full time pay and benefits? Truthfully, I feel sorry for teachers. Their union has engendered a culture of entitlement which does nothing to encourage them to strive for excellence and reap financial reward when they do their jobs well. And while their union has succeeded in achieving a handsome wage structure for them, it exceeds the renumeration for school custodians by only about 15%, and teachers shoulder how many years of post-secondary debt before they can get to work?
Until the public system places the needs of the students ahead of the needs of all other stakeholders, it will continue to weaken. Parents get tired of watching staff parking lots empty before the playground has even cleared, while their children receive nothing beyond the bare minimum required per the contract.
Private schools are booming in my school district. They are moving into the schools the public system is abandoning. Parents are willing to ante up all that dough and why? Because public education has failed to deliver. In the private system, the parents have a stronger voice than an employee's union. The private system offers choices that correspond to the learning styles of children and to the philosophical leanings of parents. Whether it's Montessori, International Baccalaureate, Advanced Placement, or tailored to specific learning disabilities; the needs of the individual are met. Teachers answer to Principals, Principals answer to parents. How sensible is that?
Remember, now that funding is attached to the pupil rather than to the school district, the easiest way to reduce the education budget is to encourage as many families as possible to enroll their children in private schools - where the student subsidy is just half.

The easiest way to cut the education budget...

I'm not going to dignify these "Observations" with a responce here. I'll respond on my blog space. http://blogthisteacher.spaces.live.com/

Bigger Picture : reading between the lines n' lies

Separating the Buckwheat from the BS.

Re: the declining school enrollment.

It truly is an interesting phenomenon....

As mentioned earlier, our own children are in the same School District I myself had graduated from. Thus, this involves several decades of familiarity with the local school system and its growth patterns. Suffice it to say, " the graph " would show an upward trend for decades , with increased school enrollment.

One's own children's elementary school is what one generally relates to, and one is often oblivious to the situations at others.

When school closures were announced, it was a bit of a surprise...given our school was full and also made use of portables. One often extrapolates one's own situation as the norm elsewhere.

Our school may be defined as " inner city " ...one of the minority of schools that is within the so called City core. Hence one expects that the density that surrounds it would disproportionally send more students to our school versus other schools located more in the suburb regions.

Using City Planners nomenclature, they look at the multi - family development in the area surrounding our children's school as densifying the area by a factor of 25 X's or more re: population growth.

However, our " Inner City " school is now flatlining re: enrollment. Thus,..if school enrollment in our high density area is flatlining, it would be reasonable to assume others with less density are as well and likely declining.

One strategy our school district appears to be using to fill empty classrooms is the expansion of the French Immersion program.

At a school district meeting for parents, and all the graphs and charts (ie Translation : PRE-decided agenda )they decided to expand the French Immersion program into one of the newer High schools. Reading the graphs and charts...this new High School as it stood, had peaked in enrollment and was going to begin a decline. The empty classrooms would likley look "bad" in this new school so they found something to attract more students. Hence, shift into a French Immersion mode.

Most recently, they are again looking to "expand French Immersion" ...with the sidebar that the chosen FI school has 5 empty classrooms.

What made this far more interesting was that in the midst of all this declining enrollment REALITY was the BCTF , their contract and claims of teacher shortages. Myself having attended the School District meetings, and seeing the enrollment projections...it was clear years ago that student enrollment would decline, before the BEFORE the BCTF started its new contract campaigns .

I have a wee bit of a suspicion that the BCTF was more than aware of these enrollment trend FACTS...which of course would impact their members.

Hmm let's see, " do the MATH "

More students = more demand for teachers...

THUS:

Less students = _____demand for teachers.

However, the enrollment decline has been proven as FACT...and the BCTF was very, shall we say, economic in it's use of the truth /facts.

Given the other joker in the deck at the same time, the Olympics, the reasonable conclusion one can draw is that cajone -less Campbell simply bought silence,(as many others have ) to avoid problems for the Olympics, as the BCTF " teacher shortage " propoganda had no basis, the declining enrollment data had been out for years.

That's not leadership...leadership begins with the FACTS and in everyone's best interests. The BCTF may have represented their members, but they are not Gov't. Campbell, in my view, failed the general public letting the BCTF win this one.It simply encourages more of the same in the future...and the future does not look good.

Given my understanding of teachers contracts, as teacher get laid off and schools close, one will see less senior teachers bumped out and the more senior ones move in. That is a whole other issue.

In essence, and given this declining enrollment issue , Campbell, the BCTF and the teachers job action was simply a far more indicative of the true colours of the Public Education System.

Simply ideological BS to mask both dysfunction, deficiencies etc. in the system and also a greater dive into the Public Trough.

Gee why do these all often go hand -in -hand?

Endangered!

Above: The master of Pure Praire Gibberish! I'm going to give you a clue as to why you're perceived to be insignificant. You are a blow hard. A blow hard is someone, like you, who thinks they know it all, and proves it by speaking to every issue. A Redneck Leftie? As Bugs Bunny might say "what an Oxy-Maroon..." Are you not tired of being a whipping boy? I'd say this thread is dead, care for a little FY contest?

Hey Maestro, you hoodlum, your pretending to know it all is very annoying to those of us that do. (know it all) Your turn.

To: Redneck Leftie

Speaking of CARTOONS :

You ARE the very embodiment of a CARTOON.

One that comes to mind are "The Roadrunner" ones.

You ARE " Wile(-less) E. Coyoteclubofrome " . Forever getting your ass -kicked and being left behind. Stomp - Stomp !

I thought you would have saved the world by now...ya' lazy slacker.
BTW Aren't ya late for pre-school ? (....assuming school is actually in your future plans).

Who writes your posts,..Cheech and Chong ?

PS Bring it on...obviously a glutton for the obvious.

Un-Original Score

You get the Oscar. For repeating everything I say. Hint, once I use a reference, like Bugs Bunny, you can't just say a cartoon comes to mind out of the blue like it was your idea!! Try instead...."speaking of looney tunes, how about that Coyoteclubofrome?" While it's still following my theme at least it's an attempt at humor.

You're correct about one thing, school. I am presently enrolled in the school of life here at the University of Fun (to which you will never be accepted, BTW) and still learning somethng each new day. But not from you. How many times do posters here have to tell you that your posts are redundant and meaningless at their best? The majority of them are as I've said pure gibberish. Try clarity. Not the stuff you take for your runny nose, but the english language. At least attempt to use it like the rest of us. Lastly, if you're going to drop the gloves at least defend yourself, this is embarasing.....

Blow Hard II, Blow Harder! The sequel.

Another losing tactic in a "FY" contest is just yelling "FY" louder than the other guy! That's not the essence of the contest. To wit, it's wit, not nit wit or nit pick! And there should be a time limit, also I would ask that you pick a second. Someone who can pick up your remains after the slaughter!

The baton waver

What I find funny is Maestro's take on punctuation. I've never seen so many extraneous ellipsises, unnecessary spaces, random exclamation points, and so forth.

Writing funny is way harder than it looks and Maestro has delivered plenty of examples that make that point painfully clear.

Maestro:

Some friendly advice for Valentine's Day... try the K.I.S.S. principle and also get yourself a copy of Strunk and White's Elements of Style. Once you know the rules you'll be much more adept at breaking them. Nothing kills an attempt at humour faster than being unable to figure out what exactly you are trying to say.

Shadow Boxing....

Can't hit what you can't see.... another disappearing act. Obviously an emergency has arisen. Wait for it...... Punctuation drunk....

Stump :

Adjust yer trifocals..

The Fourth Line of my last post was " STOMP STOMP" ...and Not "STUMP STUMP".

Re: yer critiquing;

You best be on yer own TV show

STUMPSiskel and Ebert....maybe go on Public TV. It's so Public NObody watches.

Or maybe Ch. 87...it makes the same noise and rather fuzzy...24/7 ...must be the Leftie Channel. Invite clubofrome onto the show when they leave the University of Fun...he/she/it can change their diaper and long sleeved shirt (the one's in which they tie up the sleeve ends diagonally).

Starting to suspect the " apple does not fall far from the tree " law applies here... You two related ???. However it appears clubofrome is the older of the two. Make sure you both pick up the phone and compare notes with the others before you comment.

Hey clubofrome..what does "FY" stand for...?

BTW who set the rules for FY contests ... thee/thou/,...the perpetual L-O-S-E-R ? Stomp Stomp. (NOTE: again not Stump Stump). How many times ya gonna change the rules before you acknowledge the obvious?

Have a good one.

There oughta be a better way

To tell you how funny all of this strunk me. I'm raising the commentary rating back up to 4.5 - Elliot notwithstanding.
Wonder when Frank'll be back...he'd have loved it.

You watching, bob the cat?

Yep...smoke signals as we speak.

Yes...I can see it now.....the pot smoke signals ..Lefties UNITE. The Lefties are cause-less besides just clueless.

QUESTION: How many "dead horses" can a Leftie beat?

ANSWER =Trick Question: &^%$#*&^% - #$%^ ? &*^%$ !!! #$@&%% .

(OK clubofrome open up the cereal box and get the decoder ring).

Otherwise, ya'll jump in head first , the (shallow)water is jus' fine, so sez the Leftie Lords.

The rest of us will pass.

What does FY stand for?

Jesus maestro, no wonder you can't defend yourself. FY, the first thing you would say when the referee gets between us. Cause you're a stand behind mamma's skirt kinda guy! Probably you've heard these as variations of FY. For example FY Asshol*, or FY Loser as you're rejected in the bar, again. Oh yes I'm sure you've heard it many times. But like I've said before this is too easy and i don't want to get a bully reputation for kicking sand in your face. Next time you lock yourself in the bathroom, try practicing in the mirror, this is a version of a different game with the same theme. It's called GFY.

What a team!

See how easy it is to defeat evil! Stump, G West and Frank in his absence all join in to keep the hoodlum at bay! Can a seat in the house for the Dolhin Party be far behind? Happy VD everyone! Er, have a nice Valentines!

ha ha ha

That looks so lame..the 'ha ha has' I mean.

And to you too clubofrome et al. Up the Dolphins!

We're gonna have to work on an html emoticon for the party soon if its popularity continues to skyrocket.

Always a pleasure.

Always a pleasure back slappin and glad tidin with this gang! It's a medical fact that laughter is good medicine. Gets the "endoplhins" flowing...

Free grammar advice

Maestro:

The ellipsis works like... this. Three periods and a space if the sentence continues. Use four periods if the thought trails off into....

How many people will have to tell you your posts look like a dog's breakfast and are hard to understand before you stop and listen to these valid criticisms instead of whinge-ing and generally acting like a cry-baby?

Thanks for taking the bait " G West Jr."

Gee clubofrome...

Now that Pre school is out and you are into daycare...and hence access to a computer...your naughty "Sodium Chloride" peppered language should have THE TYEE looking at giving you a detention.

I simply thought you forgot the "I" ie FY + "I". = FYI

Now that you have acknowledged the Leftie posse' members...(BTW Frank is a neo con)can you Leftie Rednecks put in 25 cents and ride the mechanical horses in the front of the supermarket "right" outa town...

Dolhin party ? " Endoplhins " .

You Lefties getta you ass-kicked before the 1st syllable is enunciated. At least Tyee Leftie god "G West" tries, albeit desperately, the old bamboozle them with thread- bare BS (= 1% or less truth) buttressed with spellink and grammr critique as their uber last gasp defence.

You clubofrome are probably 10,000 miles away and would crap your diaper at the 1st cocked eyebrow...of a gnat.

.....And then you hope your Leftie comrades catch things like "the clap"...at least I wouldn't wish them that(gives them more ammo to bitch about MSP).

Now go share some flowers...and trans fat free tofu.

Blow hardest, with a vengence!

Look how you shout from behind Mamma Tyee's skirt! I'm going to have to agree with the other Doctors here... you have SPS, Small Penis Syndrome. With that low blow, I have now disqualified myself from the FY contest. Cause you gotta have boundaries!
Happy VD maestro.

You are the Alpha Kilt...

Yeah I guess its beddy -by -time , ya little "d*ck"

Make sure ya got the right member of the Leftie possee' to tuck ya in, ya gutless coward.

Still making up the rules as you go along...eh?

BTW VD yourself.

Private school tax break?

"B.C. currently supports most private schools at 50 per cent of the level of funding provided the public system. However, when tax deductions received by parents are factored in, the overall public subsidy likely approaches the level of 70 per cent."

Really? What tax deductions are those? Neither tuition nor boarding are tax deductable. Not according to my accountant at any rate.

While I am sympathetic to the concerns of the public system, I do not support the backlash against private schools that I have witnessed. In a free country, people are allowed to make choices. The parents of private school children are tax payers, too, and they are only getting half of the government funding that public school students are getting. This is not a cost, but a saving to the system.

The public system would be better served by working to provide a product that is competitive. This is already happening in some areas of public education. In particular, French Immersion and "traditional" schools.

Michael Jay

Choice is fine, financing is another thing. Not a penny of taxpayers money should be going to private schools in this province.

The people who run these schools are businessmen and women, or charitable organizations.

People can CHOOSE to support them if they like. The public system is meant to provide a free and equitable product for all and robbing the public system to assist the private is both unnecessary and ill-advised.

In my view.

as for tax deductability

I think you'll find that's available from schools that get part of their financing through the church or charity with which they are associated. Your accountant should be able to help you with that.

Foaming!

Same experiment, same result. You lose based on your rising anger. It affects your emotions and you let it affect your behaviour, which you obviously cannot control. This is basic human nature stuff, simple psychology, and you still don't get it. I goad you into a FY contest, expose your weakness and then you go rabid. I fear for your family if they haven't already kicked your sorry ass out. Remember the definiton of insanity? Repeating the same behaviour over and over expecting a different result! God I wish you were a right wing Christian nut or something, maybe a pro-lifer or gun toting NRA member, then I could really get your goat. Since I'm making up the rules, I decided instead of disqualification a 24 hour suspension was a better idea. Are you getting mad yet or did a another night alone cool you off?

The best use of the Gutless/Coward name was in the greatest sports book of all time, Ball Four, Jim Boutin. Pranks from the locker room included someone planting a false letter of a paternity suit. The player opened the letter while other members of the team watched and bit their lips, hard. After no longer being able to watch the despair any longer, someone confessed it was a joke. The guy was pissed, but obviously releived, then pissed again, he said something like, "who is the no good, SOB, gutless, coward that sent this letter." When a voice from the back said, "don't call me gutless...."

Oh and maestro, for the last time, quit repeating everything I say, what are you a parrot?

Yellow!

Yellow, and a dirty no good, flea bitten range varmint!

Club-of-clownz-n'bozos-sky A

Club-of-clownz-n'bozos-sky

ADVICE:

Tell yourself Knock - Knock Jokes involving yourself-sky only .

Have fun-sky !

Atta boy /girl/it !!!

Nice doggie -sky.

PS Remember to lift your hind leg when nature calls, or is that yellow streak natural?

Ciao - sky