Here's the strategic sense of Dion's victory. It was not just random chance.

Dion was positioned as a classic liberal (unity, social justice, and economic conservatism) with an updated environmental urgency. Ignatieff was supported by much of the party establishment and seen as center-right. The remainder of the establishment picked Rae who was ex-NDP.

It is unclear to what extent the positioning was based on intent or happenstance.

Then, there’s Gerald Kennedy who is a lame duck because of his French. He does well on a reform campaign. But, it also meant that he alienated the majority of ex-officio voters. And, Dion gained more from the ex-officio votes in the first ballot than Kennedy.

On speech night, Kennedy made an appeal to the anti-American vote. But, it is too late.

Credit goes to Dion for being consistent and clear, in spite of a mediocre campaign. On Super-weekend, he is just a point behind Kennedy. And, it is the absolutely worse that he could do, and still remain competitive. Kennedy could have been the new party leader if Dion had been three points behind on September 1st.

That was how close it was for Dion and the party. A total of 100 delegates on September 1st was the deciding factor for the future of Dion, the party and he country

Sorry, my mistake. Super-weekend ended on October 2, no September.

Bad choice, his English is crappy.

Well another future PM who barely speaks english, so what else is new. Don't get me wrong, Dion was the best choice, the whinging from Conservative and NDP observers certainly prove this.

English speaking people in the West are third class people, hamstung by a language policy that favour Quecbec, the third class types out here will look for another vehicle to park our votes. Greens, Western Separtists, it doesn't matter, anything is better than the inept Conservatives, the corrupt Liberals, and the hopelessly dated NDP.

Now then, you rose coloured glasses crowd, Canada isn't like Switzerland or Belgium, we are fare to large for B & B to work. The current result is that people in the West cannot rise to be PM; rise in the military; or rise in the Bureaucracy! The sad fact is we are third class citizens and national politics really don't interest us anymore, simply because it doesn't matter, we get screwed all the time from the East!

I agree with McMartin -- the stars were aligned for Dion. I'm sure that no one is more stunned by Dion's victory than Dion himself.

I've also got to agree with jwstewart's comment -- it was a poor choice. Not just because of his poor English, although that's part of it. I don't think the ROC will get behind another Liberal Quebecker so soon. Stephen Harper must've been smiling as much as Dion.

The media will also no doubt enjoy making overuse of "Stéphane vs. Stephen".

Grumpy said:

"The current result is that people in the West cannot rise to be PM..."

Umm... who is our PM right now?

Dion was not in first or second place at the start of the convention for a reason....ie there were others more popular who were thus ahead of him.

I think some lessons should be learned from Chretien vs. Martin. The Ignatieff and Rae support began to evaporate...and their votes parked with a more banal generic candidate who stands out less. Rememeber, Dion was originally brought in by Chretien, and later purged by Martin...then later brought back in by Martin.

Lieberal supporters likely took note, and did not want to be tagged as either Rae OR Ignatieff types....for future reference and future agendas, so as to not compromise their own careers if Rae and Ignatieff make another run in the future. Didn't Martin have Chretien-esque heads on platters when he took over ?

Unless there is some miracle, I think Dion is simply a transitional leader, they need someone to fill these shoes till a more solid choice steps forward.

These are leadership conventions...and the dynamics are particular to this, "someone" has to win..often the power play is various "ANY BODY BUT "X" or "Y" or ... and the best default candidate emerges "victorious" from this internal battle.

Why the grumbling?

Facts, Trudeau and Chretien led long Liberal governments. Anglophone Turner and Martin were disappointing.

Doesn't necessarily mean that Dion will be a success. But, we should remove our prejudices and give him a chance.

At any rate, Ignatieff and Kennedy are waiting in the wings for their chance. So, wait and see.

The sad fact is we are third class citizens and national politics really don't interest us anymore, simply because it doesn't matter, we get screwed all the time from the East!

Oh how sad for the West; crying that they can not ascend politically or miltarily because they are from the West! Boo Hoo! So move! I did, moving West from Quebec in 1989.

As to Dion:

I suppose Dion's english is like my french-I can be understood but it takes effort and sometime's the listener has to fill in the blanks!

Frankly, his being an advocate for the environment is laughable. No action realy has been taken on climate change yet, especially during the 13 years of the Liberal government. What will Dion's and the Liberal party's actions or tasks to address climate change? No more 'talk'

I will not vote Liberal in the next election, I will vote either NDP or Green.The Liberals still need to be 'cuffed' for the 13 years of corruption and gorging at the trough!

I will say that the Liberals did pick the best lame duck leader, who after the next election, is still the leader of the opposition against a minority Conservative government. Then the Liberals will seek another leader because Dion did not 'win'.

Until then, this will probably be the last time until next election that the Liberals had garnered so much t.v. exposure-I doubt it will make a difference!

Stephan Dion's leadership of the Libs is the most hopeful political event in this country since Ed Broadbent's leadership of the NDP.

The NDP has dropped the ball badly federally and provincially. Their stategy to focus criticism on the Libs rather than the Tories during last federal election in a misguided attempt to take left-leaning Lib votes at any cost, left us with a Tory govt and no comprehensive national child care subsidy. Provincially, well, someone I know who is still giving energy to the cowardly, fiscally conservative provincial NDP reported that 2 weekends ago at a policy discussion meeting, when he tried to raise the issue of low welfare rates he was told "now is the not the right time."

The provincial NDP, as pathetic as it is, is the best of a bad lot. But how will I be voting in the next federal election? For Dion's Libs.

The Green Party hasn't impressed me either provincially or federally as having a comprehensive plan for social policy.

correction: no comprehensive child care "strategy" (not "subsidy")

freebear
I see where you're coming from. But, don't you think that Dion will gobble the green vote - or at least it's potential to grow. I can even imagine the lawn signs changing colour...I expect he'll make a huge effort to appeal to younger voters and people who are concerned about the environment since it's the main difference between the Cons and the Libs in any case.
Although I agree that Liberal environmental activism is a contradiction in terms, Dion seems to have successfully sold the media on his bona fides and the media will take it from here.

Elizabeth May is going to have a hard time tackling the idea that a vote for her party will do anything for the environment. Folks are pretty fickle. The young people lining up behind Dion look an awful lot like the typical 'Green' demographic to me.

I wish I had a better counter for your argument that, at best, we’re going to get another Harper minority. Dion may not even be able to hold the seats the Liberals have now in Quebec – let alone win many in the west.

Lazysupper, you must be an Easterner because Alberta is only the West to the people in Ontario and Quebec.

BC is the west and Alberta is East!

For the average child born in BC, they will not get the benefits of the average children born in Ontario and Quebec.

Why do you think French Emersion classes are so popular here. People with money are sending their kids there to recieve an education that will get them somewhere in the police, military or bureacracy. For the rest crumbs!

This is a two tier educational system in BC and no one gives a damn!

One day BC will go its own way, we are not welcome.

I attended the leadership convention as an Alternate (i.e., not a voting Delegate) supporting Mr. Dion. A week ago, I was one of the few people in Canada who truly believed that Mr. Dion (actually "Dr. Dion") would win. He ran a positive, policy-oriented campaign, and built effective bridges to supporters from other camps. During the convention itself, Dion supporters were advised by his campaign organizers to stay positive, and to never criticize the other candidates. Instead, we were to talk to other candidates' supporters about Mr. Dion's attributes. This strategy worked. On Saturday, during the voting, I was a volunteer scrutineer, and it was heartening to see more and more Dion-green on the delegates as they lined up to vote on successive ballots. This week, supporters of the other candidates will be getting over their disappointment, with their spirits lifted I'm sure by the little bump-up in Liberal popular support during this "honeymoon" period.

A prediction: the next federal election will be a fascinating experience, with the federal parties presenting clear policy alternatives for Canadian voters. The Liberals and Conservatives will both come out of the election as truly national parties, with MPs coming from all parts of Canada, and hopefully the Greens and the NDP will have their fair share of representation as well. (I have no kind wishes for the Bloc - sorry!) Vive le Canada!

If you travel in Europe, you find TV channels in many different languages. Groceries are labeled in several languages. People there have no problem learning one or two languages in addition to their native language. Why is it that here in the West some people still choke at the suggestion that possibly learning a language in addition to English will improve their lives?
People are happier with an open mind.

Que-Can
If that's the case, why the ad hominem attack against the NDP in Dion's acceptance speech? I don't believe it Liberals are always the same - if the back room really wanted to reach out to the people, even the people of your own party, why did only 500 folks show up to vote, and then turn thumbs-down, on direct membership representation at bun tosses like the leadership? Further, trying to make the point about Dion and the 'people' isn't furthered by calling him Dr Dion. Even Ignatieff didn't make such a foolish mistake.
Just more evidence of the elitism and exclusivity of the party who thinks they have a God-given right to be the masters of the universe, in my view.

Arrogant to a fault and to the country's detriment.

Freebear:

Love your crystal ball...any left for Christmas ?

Yeah...ok ....some "udder" great___LIEberal hope has now been crowned...but how many of us ask is this deja vu' all over again ?

The LIEberals have been oft - defined as opportunists whose lifeforce is the lust for, and maintaining of " POWER" ... PERIOD.

TRUDEAU: Trudeaumania... (barf)
TURNER: Anglo..felt it was his Anglo turn
CHRETIEN: Tory KIM CAMPBELL screwed up
MARTIN:( see TURNER example above)
DION: LIEberal answer to Joe Clark ?

Dion must realize this after 10 + years, the only question is how to play it. Environment?....well why not tie motherhoood and other gray ethereal concepts under one ministry?

Kyoto re-visited ? will piss off the Western voters who produce the energy....and the Eastern Voters who build the cars who use the same energy.....not to mention coal...offshore drilling, etc. Dion, if he becomes a true Liberal old boy will dilute this enviro agenda.

Why do I keep thinking BC's ex NDP leader Bob Skelly when I see Dion.

mjf:

No one questions the merits of being fluent in a 2nd or 3rd or 4th etc. language.

Our family has two bilingual members , one of which is now becoming tri-lingual.

What the problem is is when politics enter into it. A study years ago showed that the first graduates of the French Immersion program were finding that once outside school they were not necessarily seeing such bi-lingual fluency as an asset, and in fact were losing some of these previously acquired skills.

The Liberals never really cared about the purer issue of the merits of a 2nd language, it has always been used as a means to curry Quebec's favour and stifle dissent in the rest of Canada. Many of us see this as the basic Federal Liberal modus operandi, ie look under the gift wrap to see the real agenda.

What is more relevant is the 2nd "multicultural" language actually be relevant to one's own micro-environment, which if pragmatically applied, would have many of us in BC and our children speaking Cantonese, Mandarin, Punjabi etc.

mfj, you are very correct, except for one thing, unilingual people are not denied political freedom. Unilingual people are not 3rd class citizens. I Canada we are.

Should read In europe unilingual people.........

The stars must have been aligned ???

Not likely,I say!More like FATE driving a semi and rolling over KYOTO the pup.
Dion,is not a LEADER...he is a FOLLOWER.

Watching his body language and listening to him since he was elected GRAND POOBAH of the CRETIN CLAN has given me and others all we need to know.

HE/DION is a POLITICAL LIGHTWEIGHT AND HARPER IS P!SS!NG HIS PANTS WITH DELIGHT...

Oh shite....

I am going to have to agree with much of what HARALD (tells -it -like -it -is ? ) KANN said...

SHITE !!!

PS HOW'S IT GOING HARALD...

TIP: Use WD-40 on the keyboard .

Grumpy:

I grew up in Alberta and then Ontario and have been in BC for the past 8 years. Everyone I've ever met (across Canada) has considered Alberta part of the West. Every poli sci book I've ever read does too.

Rich people want their kids to be cops or canon fodder?

Do you belong to some extreme-west splinter cell of Western Canada Concept?
Geez... even Doug Christie's Canada includes Manitoba.

Yes Maestro,I said the same damn thing reading your postings.

PS:i use a voice program,I hate damaging my fingernails.

Geez,lunch over already!weekends over,new week staring me in the face.

Damn,hurry up Christmas !GIMMEE SOME TIME OFF!

Grumpy:

This is a two tier educational system in BC and no one gives a damn!

LOL... you jest, right? About "sending their kids there to recieve an education that will get them somewhere in the police, military or bureacracy." that is.

French immersion has precious little to do with French, national unity, etc. French immersion is, quite simply, a free, "private", school option for poor people. French immersion parents are motivated parents; they are active in the school community. French immersion schools get their kids out of regular school classes, filled to overflowing with ESL students. French immersion classes are an alternative to classes where a good percentage of the pupils are "special" in some sense -- the types of classes the BCTF directed our attention to during their strike when talking about "working (and learning) conditions".

Que-Can said:

"A prediction: the next federal election will be a fascinating experience, with the federal parties presenting clear policy alternatives for Canadian voters."

Really!

As they have done so in the past?

As in the 'Hot Air Act'

As in the last election campaign?

Remember the environment did not get mentioned in the last lection campaign.

Any person, including a federal party leader, who speaks of 'environmental sustainability', or 'a sustainable environment' does not get it!

The environment is always sustainable, whether bio-diverse, or bio-limited!

The point is whether our HUMAN behaviour is sustainable, without degrading our environment beyond its resiliency so that it can continue the services needed to keep the HUMAN SPECIES sustainable!

We have to curb the human appetite and until a crisis I sincerely doubt any federal party can be elected on a platform that aims to curb our appetites and maniacal and fanatical need to keep growing physically and economically-look at the success of the Green Party-Nuff said!

The real struggle in Canadian politics will be between the Libs and Cons trying to establish who is Coke who is Pepsi.

You're forgetting that Dion was minister of the environment for a year and a half, with his initiatives killed by Harper. To say that Dion had enough time to make positive change, is, well, reaching.

Remember when Jack got elected? Did he not go on and on with attacks on the Libs and Cons? Is this the only convention you've ever seen? And geez, have you added up their spending? Its red ink, buddy, and if you don't take a serious look at it on your own, you won't get the jest of why Dion made the money remark. You are simply going to have to ask the question with an open mind, "does the NDP have a sound fiscal policy in their platform?" Until you know that answer for your own self, you simply won't have the right rebuttal for such Dion criticisms of the NDP other than, "geez, he ran us down. Thats unfair." Is it unfair? Check for yourself and I would be more than willing to debate you on it, I might add.

As for the vote on "one member, one vote", I've made my opinion clear on past threads. Inept. There is no other word to describe a mere tenth of delegates voting on such an important issue as this. But on reflection, there are pro's to conventions. 4 days of media exposure and a dead cat bounce come in handy... but the Con is its simply not as democratic. Still, the convention's way of choosing a leader is in "everyone's face", alliances and all. I would like to see the convention somehow kept, but with "one member, one vote". Can we have both? Good question.

And the fact's remain with the outcome. Bay street, elitists, and media pimped Iggy and Rae. They lost. This says something about the system they have in place in terms of functionality, but lets face it here and now. Kennedy handed it to Dion on a silver platter and this sets up one of two scenario's.

If Dion ignores the environment and reform if or when he gets into power, he loses Kennedy and he's sunk. This would create a major division in the party. Dion can promise the moon and win an election, there's no question of that. But beyond that, he'll need to make major changes within his party, and within Canada.

But don't anyone underestimate Dion. He simply does not stand alone, and people love the underdog, nerdy, tweedy, thick accented and academically stiff as he is. His strongest suit? Principles. Integrity. And he's tested on it. You simply can't buy this sort of thing. It has to be earned, and there isn't a journalist void of bias that doesn't acknowledge it.

Its a strong Lib minority, all right. And if the NDP is smart, Jack will turn into a nice guy instead of a monotone angry fingerpointer like the rest of the children in the debates. Accountability, I believe, will be the issue the Cons choose to fight the next election. The NDP has to impove their platform in this area, as well as economically, and Jack has to come across as the nice guy, or they will lose seats.

Right I agree.

Fact: Trudeau and Chretien had a personality. Turner, Martin, Dion do not.

The brain:

In terms of the environment you missed my point. Its not just Dion's lack of progress over a year and a half; its the liberal government's lack of progress for 13 YEARS! Just signing Kyoto obviously has not made a difference, in fact reports say Canada has grown its greenhouse gas emmisions.

I look ahead to the crisis that will make the environment a non-partisan issue before any real chhange occurs (unfortunately for environment and the kids and grand kids to come!

Fine ananysis, entirely credible. But respondent jimtan has entered a small but misleading error in claiming "Dion positioned himself as a classic Liberal"..see Canadian Politics 101 at any university or community college.

Classic Liberalism (Hobbes et al) was the ideology that opened the wild west, where a man could claim as much acreage as he could tame with a hoirse and plough in a day and defend with his gun. And if you think Harper's Reform Tories are mean, think again. The Classic Liberal was far, far tougher - survival of the fittest.

Dion is a "Modern" Liberal, an adherent of the post-depression and post-war form of Liberalism that embraced the welfare state under pressure of an emerging strong left in Canada. Pearson Liberal, if you like, backing pensions, medicare and other universal programs.

As it happens, Modern Liberalism is Canada's dominant ideology, and no one in his/her right mind (Mr. Harper included) would dare eliminate universal programs. They certainly might try to run them more efficiently, but it would be political suicide to think of ending them, We still have a CBC, gun registration and control, old-age pensions that start being clawed back at income levels above $50,000 - now there's poverty, eh? - and medicare.

Let's try and keep the Chicken Little rhetoric a bit under control, shall we?

I have to agree with the Brain on this one. I think Dion's victory is the best darn thing to have happened to the Liberals. Dion is the one guy who can unite a fragmented party - and he is the one guy I believe who has the ability to lead the country back on track (maybe that estimation is my soft spot for nerds). Harper has done a swell smearing job on Canada's reputation and identity. I have supported the NDP previously, and can't say I've been thrilled with their performance - they seem more intent in kicking the Liberals (despite their greater policy consensus) - then ensuring the NeoCons uphold the committments that were made to both the citizens of this country and those of others who happen to have the abysmal fortune of sharing the planet with us. I almost choked when Layton met with Harper over the stinky clean air act.
In regards to Dion's francophone accent - it can only come in handy when miscommunicating with George W. - who, I gather - would also like to call our dear Dion "Steve" when the time comes (it's probably easier on his limited ROM).

the brain

The Liberals had a sound fiscal policy?

Bullshit? They have a sound policy of reneging on social program spending, providing corporate tax cuts (remember they could have done something with Income Trusts and didn't) and ignoring tax reform and they are great when it comes to pulling back on transfers to the provinces. Exactly what I'd expect from a guy who's a master of the universe like Paul Martin. You know better than that Brain.

You were the one who said Dion wasn't mean-spirited - I just pointed out your error. Mean-spirited IS politics. You were being uncharacteristically naive and I was pointing that out, is all.

As for the NDP, you're as bad as the other neocons on that point. It's pretty hard to judge the federal party's fiscal chops when they've never had a chance to exercise them. They haven't done too badly in Manitoba and Saskatchewan where they've had more than a term or two here and there to actually make it work.

And anyway, the conmen and the libs have a pretty spotty record, post 1970 anyway – the rewards always go to their small circle of friends – the same friends who don’t want to surrender their tight fisted control of the levers of party power. I didn’t say you ignored that, you just don’t give such a debacle and denial of real democracy its proper weight.

Hey, Jack's not my favourite computer salesman either, but he walks the walk and talks the talk a lot more honestly than the other leaders, in my view.

Why does the NDP have to be perfect, the other guys never have been? When they get elected they make mistakes - so will Dion; by the way, but, I don't think he'll beat Harper even if I hope he does.

.......And now for the final round in JEOPARDY.

ANSWER: The easiest no stick holier- than- thou Teflon job in politics.

QUESTION: What is Opposition ?

Canada Wikipedia : Anything starting with "N" and ending in "P" with "D" in the middle.

Dion's rise was no surprise. Choosing between the two "favourites" you had a 'parachuted' candidate from somewhere south of the border and a recycled 'man of many colours' who had already proven himself inept in office. Able though these two may have been, Dion had a proven record, and he came across as the epitome of thoughtfulness and sincerity. He also took the central theme of the environment to heart, recognising the significance of the recent showing of the Green Party in London.

Dion is a breath of fresh air. He is the first Liberal leader who is not reprocessed from the Trudeau era. He has the right mix of experience and intellect to give challenge the tories in the house. I have never voted Liberal in my life, but I will vote Liberal next time if they actually take the Kyoto commitment seriously. Canada has been shamed on an international scale by paying lip-service to the Kyoto Accord, then ignoring it completely. Our record is actually worse than any other country on Earth, yet we think of ourselves as being 'green'. Stephane Dion is smart enough to realise that. I hope he will do something about it. A good start would be to offer Elizabeth May a position on the shadow cabinet, thereby incorporating the Green Party into the Liberal Party, along with the values. That would be a good first move.

Timely revelations:

Lantzvillain: There's a difference between small-l liberals and large-L Liberals; one is a general ideology (this is what you're describing) while the other is a political party. The two are often only loosely related, heh.

One comment on the story:
What I saw suggested that Ignatieff actually had the best delegate turnout of any candidate.

http://www.stimedia.com/2006/12/early_delegate_numbers.html

Ignatieff: 1059 77%
Rae: 689 73%
Kennedy: 619 76%
Dion: 550 73%
Dryden: 161 68%
Brison: 125 69%
Volpe: 105 47%
Hall Findlay: 33 73%

G West;
Once again, G , until you actually look at the NDP economical platform and offer me a realistic debate, all you offer is rhetoric and bias.

Its like this, and the polls reflect it in popular votes:

37% Lib
31% Con
14% NDP
7% Greens
11% Bloc

Who's the most polarized in terms of support? The Cons and the Bloc. The hard right, and the separatists. No surprise. Who moves around? The center and the left. Did the Libs increase from Con support? Not a chance. The Cons support for their own is solid, and lets not forget where its from. Alta. The Bloc support is solid. Half that province are separatists. But the Lib support? The NDP? The Greens? Soft in terms of supporting the other two. Fact is, its far easier to switch from the Libs, NDP, and Greens between one another, than it is to switch to polarized parties.

You're head should be nodding so far with this assessment. If not, then you won't understand what you need to hear next.
The NDP has no choice but to get support from the Libs and Greens, if they are expected to grow. So why on earth, do you believe that finger pointing with distorted truths and exaggerations, perhaps even outright lies, is going to win over the left or center within the Libs or Greens? This philosophy makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. You quite simply do not bash your own.

And admittedly, Dion took a swipe at the economical platform of the NDP. But think about what he didn't say. He didn't say their social policy or environmental policy was out to lunch... because thats not the case. Dion took a shot at where the NDP is weak and if you think they aren't, like I say. I'll be more than happy to debate it with you.

And you had better start looking into that crystal ball of yours. Why do you think the NDP are trying to amend a hot air bill? Because they are quite stupidly going after the wrong party. You don't concentrate 99% of your time on the Libs with criticism and 1% on the Cons. And that's what they've done this last two years. What they should have done this whole time, was go after the Cons in with a vengance. If they would have done this, they would have pulled the left from the Libs and left them standing with center supoort. But they didn't and as long as they continue to buddy up to the Cons, their support will continue to erode. Now you've just heart the reason why they are failing and will continue to fail, wether you refuse to accept it or not. But when Dion criticized the NDP (in from of his own, I might add, expected) how did it make you feel? Now you know how left leaning Libs feel when the NDP goes after the Libs with a fury and vengence while giving the Cons a bye.

Look at this NDP ad on the site. Its not the Libs they should go after, its the Cons!!!! And if they used any common sense at all, they would know that if they attacked the Cons properly, they would attract Liberal voters and NDP defectors back into the fold.

By the way, this isn't some bias uninformed twit that's telling you this. This is coming from someone who has impartial logic and if you can't accept what I've just told you, then fine. Watch the NDP fall flat on their ass and scratch your head as to why. At that point, I will no longer care. You've been told.

You must for some reason think I was for Income Trust taxation. I wasn't. I was all for Income Trust regulation in terms of what kind of corps could qualify to become one. That's all that really needed to be done with income trusts. Actually, there was plenty of alternatives that the Cons could have chosen but didn't. Garth Turner explains it best on his site.

As for your support of NDP spending in their platform, by all means, once again, I'll be more than happy to debate it with you.... same bat time, same bat channel.

economical platform - at least that sounds 'cheap' which is something I've never been able to say about the costs (for the average guy and girl) about what the Libs and the Cons have been cooking up for us.

I know that was a cheap shot, sorry.

I don't have any problem with your posting polls either but I don't know why you bothered.

I'm more than convinced the NDP won't win the next election. Until things really fall apart or we get some actual electoral reform the NDP doesn't have a lot of choice but hope for a minority government - but there's nothing new about that, it's just the way things are.

So let's look at the real world. When did the NDP make the most progress in getting things for the Canadian people that it thought were important? During the Trudeau/Broadbent minority years - right.

So, what would you have them do?
The cons propose an air bill that's full of it and the NDP do their best to try and improve it by using the only hammer they have. That's what small parties do and I can't imagine what you'd expect them to do. If Harper wins the next election, and I think he's going to, then the fact the NDP managed to marginally improve a bad piece of legislation should be a feather in their cap - as far as I can see.

As to criticism, I don't think you're being realistic, a party in opposition has to do the best they can. Remember the Paul Martin scenario? The NDP propped up the government several times when Harper was calling for their blood after the 2005 election. I just think you're ingoring evidence that doesn't support your case. Everytime working man comes on this site he screams at the NDP and says that Harper's victory is Jack's fault because he withdrew support ftom the government in December instead of waiting till February.

In other words, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

My feelings aren't important. I don't have a membership in any party. You're the one who always goes on about feelings - all I did was point out the inconsitency in your position.

I think the NDP ad is stupid too. Especially on this site - but I guess David needs the money. I'd rather the party hired some researchers to tackle the hidden evidence that Campbell and his clones are trying to sell this province down the river and across the border.

I'd rather they tackled the fact that this government constantly hides behind the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act in this province too. There are cases which should be out in front of the public that the opposition could be screaming about, instead they whisper in the hallways and pretend governing isn't a blood sport.

I'm tired of trying to do it all myself - I wish Carole James and her mates would help a little.

Dude, look at that again, I respect you too much not to give you a chance to reconsider that statement before I take it apart.

No, the Libs and Cons are cheap when it comes to social programs. Its apt. But the Cons are miserly compared to the Libs.

Because there is more than you and myself in this discussion... and polls count.

Unfortunately, the hot air bill is irrepairable. It was a mistake for the NDP to try to do anything with it at all. The Cons are dinosaurs when it comes to the environment. Let them be dinosaurs when it comes to voters.

But thats my point. They simply aren't. Too many of their decisions are knee jerk. They didn't become green until the Greens showed up. Socially, they've been superior to them all, except in terms of bang for buck. And like I say, I'll be happy to debate it.

Harper was going to win regardless. In fact, he might have even won more seats, if the election was stalled. But thats not why the NDP chose to call it early. It would do you well to see what bills were coming up to be passed between Dec. and Jan.

But feelings are important. People vote with their hearts as well as their brains.

As for the rest, you're right about it all, including my tone, for which, I apologize. :-) (again...)
There was a motive to the tone, however. Perhaps goad you into looking into the NDP platform for a "polite" debate? :-)

I too, have the feeling that NDP'ers from the top down read this site. Quite convinced of it, actually. It would do them well to get some criticism from someone who is likely to vote for them... er... exuse me, one of their potential MP's.

Oh, my god!

Dion is going for the jackpot. He only needs a minority government to pass social justice and green legislation. But, he’s going for a majority government by forcing voters to choose. When was the last time a government did that?

He’s trying to end-run the separatists by fighting on the basis of bigger issues. The problem is that he hasn’t consulted his caucus, and he hasn’t even chosen a shadow cabinet. Who’s advising him?

Life is certainly going to be interesting. Now, who was describing him as a ‘bureaucrat‘, ‘wonk’ etc.

the brain

I know that. The NDP was playing hardball, they set the price and Martin wouldn't pay it. Isn't that what you just said you wanted then to do?

I know you're not making working man’s argument but I was just pointing out that it's a no-win situation and not the one-sided deal you characterized it as.

People should have feelings, they should be careful about what they believe in, but in the long run your feelings are for your friends and family. Politics doesn’t qualify as a feeling intensive arena and I don't think that buddy-buddy stuff at political shindigs IS real friendship. Ask anyone who was in Tommy Douglas's cabinet in the years after 1944. I don't want people around me with thin skins who think politics is a picnic - if you're going to fight scum you have to be prepared to be abrasive. But, Jack’s move to work with Harper on the air bill is still smart pool. If Harper wins the election the NDP has achieved some small improvement in a bad piece of legislation – call it a harm reduction strategy – and if Harper loses the legislation is toast anyway – where’s the downside?

If the provincial party reads this website it's a cinch they aren't paying any attention to me. They seem to like letting people like cappy and working man spit in their faces. I don't, and that's why I won't be a member of a party that doesn't seem to have a direction anymore.

But I don't think the same thing can be said of Jack. He's got lots of faults, talks way too much and often at the wrong time, but he has chutzpah - he should send some of it to Carole, she needs a transfusion.

Glad you had second thoughts about that last paragraph.

Y'know what? The federal NDP is getting ready to make the same damn mistake they've made ever since Ed Broadbent took them within an inch of being in power ...

That is, they're going to attack the Liberals (again) instead of attacking the real enemy (again) the Reform/CCRAP/Alliance/Prog Cons/Conservative Party of Canada.

Dumb. Absolutely stupid.

It's a tough call Mary. If you support the Liberals they won't reciprocate and they'll steal your ideas and programs and pretend they're yours. Just look at social legislation in this country. Virtually all the good ideas come from Saskatchewan - things like health care and hospital insurance and Lester Pearson never stopped taking credit for it.

The NDP can't win, as I've tried to point out to Brain above. If they support the Liberals they get no credit - if they try to push the neocons they get no respect.

If Dion forms a minority government will he give Layton some cabinet posts? Haven't seen it happen in the past.

Yes I'm also of the opinion that Gordon Campbell and everybody involved in this total criminal organized crime coverup scandal in the history of British Columbia including CanWest!
Involving Paul Martin http://paulmartintime.ca/story/000025.html and the Basi boys http://thetyee.ca/News/2006/11/09/LegRaid/
They should all be locked up for a minimum of 10 years and their Corporations if found ill gotten criminal gains, should be put under the control and guidance of a public body.
We have the show these big boys that they aren't above the law.

Stephane Dion's Liberal leadership win, I hope he's the man who will bring this country back together?
I've always been NDP but now I'll listen to Stephen Dion and if he'll include open government no back room BS, integrity, make Canada a very strong and Proud sovereign nation again, whistle blower protection, bring back all social programs that Harper has cut as we are a very rich country, all women's programs, keep church and politics separate, make Canadian Armed Forces Peacekeepers again so Canadians become proud once again, stay clear of Bush's "I Emperor" of the world ideals.

Dion is a good choice for the Liberals. His popularity in his home province will improve, particularly during a campaign where the Conservative's war record is brought out for close inspection by Quebec voters.

Can we please stop with the "poor me, I'm a westerner" rubbish? If we want better governance, we can cast our eyes much closer to home than Ottawa. It's time to think like Canadians rather than an insular bunch of whiners. Think you've got it bad? Try living in the maritimes.

And another thing, while I'm ranting. Can we examine all the received wisdom we've been throwing around? A quick check of the real world will quickly refute the idea that right-wingers know how to operate an economy and left-wingers don't. Look south - how are the Republicans doing?

Black
Shouldn't that be an 'insular insecure bunch of whiners'?

You're definitely right about one thing though, the critics never mention certain very successful left wing countries North and a little East of Scotland, do they?

I'd swap them their economy - scaled to fit - anytime.

G West, I know altruism isn't the stuff political parties are made of - but as a Canadian whose empathies lie with progressive perspectives, I'm delighted if the ruling party adopted the socially progressive policies touted by the NDP - or any other like-minded soul - and made it into law. We could either look at it in terms of "what's good for the Party" or "what's good for the Country". Are the NDP more concerned about getting the accolades they yearn for, or are they content that the Liberals employ progressive policies that echoes their own views? At the moment, all I've seen is a fight to keep "other" progressives out of the box so that they have the loudest voice battling an outnumbered fight - which is self-defeating.

While I was commenting on the fact that it likely helped the Libs by forcing them to an election earlier, what I really wanted you to think about was what kind of legislation was in the pipeline between the time the election was held, and the time Paul Martin wanted it held. At issue were big issues, including environmental legislation and daycare. Both would likely have helped the Libs, and both issues were issues that I believe, the NDP didn't want them to take any credit for. Better to leave them fail to introduce legislation on daycare and the environment, and then blame them for their failures, then to allow it to pass so the Libs can take credit for doing something about these issues. Aint politics grand?

I guess someone should have mentioned this to Gerard Kennedy.

Try voters perception. Again, I believe that going after the Liberal vote is the wrong way to get left support. Go after the Cons, and left support is assured!
Go after the Libs as much as the NDP has while turning a blind eye to Harper because Harpers crowd doesn't have righties, is not the way to go! The left wants Harper put in his place. Out of office! All the NDP will do by doing what they have done, is polarize themselves from leftist Liberal support, the very support the NDP would have garnered, if they would have conducted themselves more appropriately.

Are you convinced that a leftist person is in some respects more decent than say the right which only and continually and shamefully thinks only of themselves? Seriously, are we to think that voters who vote for the good of the nation over their own selfish wants are less than or inferior to the selfish voter? In retrospect, these mannerisms also follow suit. Arrogance isn't known to be a leftist trait. So why sleep with it? Why support it? Why lie in bed with Righties at all under any circumstances? Its like asking for a pig to share. Trust me when I say, it, voters perception counts and they know who's nice and who isn't. What, we have to stoop to gutter tactics to get results now? I don't buy it. Neither does the majority of the voters out there. People are waking up, G. Nice guys are finnishing first.

It is becoming more and more obvious to me that provincial NDP leadership is dropping the ball. So what do we do? Raise hell! And if that doesn't work, get the knives out during the next NDP provincial leadership convention to replace failures with successes. Is there another choice out there? Why, I'm thinking of running as an MLA for the NDP myself. Looks like they've got plenty of room for upgrades.

I think Carole needs a whole lot more than that. As for Jack, I don't think its too late for him to change tactics, but he's lost momentum and the polls are reflecting it. With the opportunities he's had, he should have had the left solidified. It just hasn't happened.

Re: correction. because Harpers crowd doesn't have righties, (should be "doesn't have lefties)

I agree with Hugh Segal that the Conservatives dodged a bullet when the Liberals failed to choose Bob Rae as their leader. (Come to think of it, so did the NDP--although they may now lose "green" voters.)

I had visions of Mr. Rae, the former legal counsel to the Canadian Lumber Council, touring B.C. taking Stephen Harper and David Emerson to account on the softwood lumber issue. He has the knowledge and the intellect to debate the issue with anyone. His record of battling for Meech and Charlottetwon and his fluent bilingualism positioned him well in Quebec, without risking another constitutional quagmire. Polls indicated that he was more favoured to beat Harper than any other candidate--and that his position in Ontario was recuperating nicely.

The strength of Gerard Kennedy's organization made the most critical difference--Dion's status as the most popular "second choice" was the other. Had Kennedy simply released his delegates without endorsing anyone, Bob Rae would probably be the Liberal Leader.

That is, they're going to attack the Liberals (again) instead of attacking the real enemy (again) the Reform/CCRAP/Alliance/Prog Cons/Conservative Party of Canada.

Dumb. Absolutely stupid. - BC Mary

I personally and logically could not agree with you more. :-) Its been my mantra chant towards G West and Frank these days, and I'm trying my hardest to explain why this is so.

Look at Avincenna's post for an example. When the NDP tried to amend the hot air bill and collaborate with the Cons, it about made her puke. She's not alone! And the amendments themselves? Weak.

To me, it looks like the NDP cares more about gaining seats than they do about principles and doing whats right. (meaning not to sleep and lie with religious nutter western separatist republican war mongering oil burners.) If they simply did what was right, the seats would take care of themselves. They are quite frankly, G, BLOWING IT.

The NDP can't win, as I've tried to point out to Brain above. If they support the Liberals they get no credit - if they try to push the neocons they get no respect.

Avencienna has a big huge point. Its not a popularity contest. Good people don't do what's popular... they do what's right! And for what its worth, there isn't an adult voter outside of illiteracy that doesn't know where the social direction of this country came from. EI? NDP. Public healthcare? NDP. We learn it about as soon as we learn to tie our shoes, for christ sake. Who cares about some blowhard taking credit? The country cares about results. Hungry and sick people need to eat and be looked after. Y'know?

Doesn't it make sense that the NDP attacks the Liberals far more than the Cons? Which party has led this country for much of the previous decade(s)? If Layton focussed his efforts on attacking the Cons he'll risk losing his party's advantage in propping up a minority govt. if and when his tactics actually assist the Libs in winning a majority next election. Then where will he and his party be?

I can't believe Dion won but I'm glad and I think he'll become the next PM.
Ignatief was just another yankee doodle
with a red tie instead of blue.

I usually vote NDP but I've been a supporter of David Orchard since he was one of the few to fight the lyin Brian (traitor) Mulrooney.

I followed David, held my nose and became a Tory. Then that lyin puke M'Kay sold us out. So I followed Orchard held my nose again and became a Liberal. Orchard told me to vote Dion and I did.

There is evil and there is bad. The Liberals suck but evil is in control of our country right now.

I'll vote for whoever has the best chance of ridding my area of Gary Lunn with his many tailored military uniforms, loyalties, and his suck hole American sound bites.

We caught a break. It's a new day for Canada.

I think that's nonsense brain Dryden brought in his child care program - even arranged the funding and the NDP was supportive of that. You've been listening to too much of Paul Martin's apolgetics I'm afraid.

As to the prospects from Dion, I hope you're right about him but I fear you may have been listening to a bit too much Liberal self-congratuation with a strong sprinkling of Rex Murphy's overly flowery verbosity. Remember, Michael Ignatieff is a life long idealist and academic too. Sans Iraq, I have a strong feeling that you'd all be crowing his praises today.

Don't forget, Ignatieff was one of the few central Canadian academics to speak out loud and clear about Gordo's Native Referendum.

Dang right! (if that pisses you off try:Dang Left) I do not care much about the history of the current candidate.
What I do care about is exactly how she or he votes and behaves. Lot's of talk about "constituencey" which I was assuming has something to do with this here "democracy" thing we seem to be persueing at breakneck speed.

I'm goin' with the astrologers:
Dion won there and he might grunt the other Harper thing outa the way if we are patiant.

Let me know when you've finished with the straw man.

Tell that to Ken Dryden. He's the nicest guy in the building in my view and he sure didn't finish first.

Avicenna, you're now going to tell me that because Stephane Dion is the new leader of the Liberal party (and his campaign was run by Mark Mariessen,(sp?)) - remember who he is and what he represents, that I should believe the Liberal cats are changing their spots.

I want a lot more evidence than I've seen to this point. Remember how we all dumped on David Emerson when he switched sides? Well, I believed we were all doing the right thing then but I didn't think Emerson was a great hero (most of my criticism was for Harper).
He'd parachuted into Paul Martin's team just like Ujjal Dosanjh did - remember?

I think we have a whole lot of frustrated people indulging in wishful thinking around here tonight.

But don’t get me wrong, I’m more than happy if Stephane Dion replaces Steven Harper. Frank’s the one who says there’s no difference between the two steves, not me. But, don’t ask me to pretend that that Liberal government will be much better than Paul Martin’s or Jean Chretien’s before him.

And don’t ask me to vote Liberal because I know what Liberals in this country are all about – power, not people.

Mark Marissen is the right spelling. Sorry.

You all remember him, don't you?

No
I try not to pay attention to politics let alone remember their names. I'm from B.C.
Anybody remember Van Der Zalm?
Or the whacky broad who replaced him?

That's Mark Marissen, of Burrard Communications, who was director of the Martin campaign, and husband of Christy Clark - another of the worthies up to their compromised necks in the Basi, Basi and Virk trial and the investigation that's striking to the heart of the Liberal party in British Columbia - Provincial and Federal branches.

Still sure you're so keen about Stephane Dion and his hangers on?

And his HIGH moral standards?

I wonder if Erik Bornman(n) was a registered delegate or alternate at the big wing-ding in Montreal?

Perhaps he was climbing walls and stealing lists for the new leader too, I understand he hasn't quite made it as a lawyer yet...

You mean Rita Johnson, doggone - I remember.

Dear G - I'm trying to forget that Mr. Christy Clark hung on to Dion's flapping coat tails to float into the big leagues. I don't for one second think it is because he and Dion are of similar mind or nature. He offered Dion a foot in BC, and Dion offered him an incredible opportunity to raise his profile as a political strategist. Call it youthful optimism - or amnesia - but I separate the ilk of those like Dion, Chretien, and Trudeau - not so much by their linguistic penchant - but by their true identification with "liberal" ideals. Guys like Martin and Emerson are Liberals by convenience - they can easily wear any other stripe as convincingly. If Ignoramus had won the leadership race, I would have been a bit more chipper as there would be little doubt that I wouldn't give them (the Liberals) a second look. Dion lacks all guile, and he is unambiguious as to what the "right thing" to do is. How refreshing - maybe it is the academic in me who yearns to see the nerdy prof putting some of that info into use. Dion respects information and those who produce it - he quotes Suzuki and understands the importance of education. The Party (be it Liberal, NDP, neocon) doesn't have an identity outside of those who form its parts, and at this moment, the Liberal parts look like the most nutritious meal on the plate (and no puking, I promise, Brain).

This is an opportunity. Though I tend to vote Green I could be persuaded to vote something else if I cared for the candidate.
So far Dion is a fresh face (looks somewhat like my grandchild but who knows)

I would need (before I voted Liberal) to know that they have listened th E. May.
But I still might vote for the Libs
Just to get the Tory out for now;
Bad time for conservative approach

The same fruit but another flavour of the day.

Thanks, Will, for a painstaking, cogent, incisive analysis, far beyond the realm and capability of the follow-the-leader, conventional wisdom
blather of the national media, mirrored, herein, unfortunately, by the blather of the usual Tyee hangers-on (they who, recognizing the futility of establishing their own blogs, clutter up this formum with their tiresome prattle). You will of course not have read down far enuff in the aforementioned litany of mental lassitide and inertia to discover and accept my compliments, but I extend them in the hope that you will follow up with your thoughts on the relationship that will evolve both in the Commons and among the electorate on the Stephane/Stephen play to come. I'll be waiting in the wings.

Avicenna
Marissen was Dion's manager Canada-wide. He was the one who brokered the deal with Kennedy - very reluctantly apparently.

I'm seriously from Missouri and while I liked Chretien's style I think he falls clearly into the power player role - don't forget APEC and his black-jacketed buddy Jean Carl who was later to surface in Adscam. We can't all have such short memories, can we?

And, I don't think that there's any serious doubt that Ignatieff would have won if Iraq hadn't happened and everyone would have been praising him as the clear headed academic. He led the academic attack on Gordo's native referendum and he was right.

Just to indicate how ready we may be to fall back into old habits I even read a post somewhere or other today wherein the writer reminded the readers that Stephane was 'Dr.' Dion...in all seriousness.

Dunno if you're familiar with this little rhyme but I'll repeat it anyway,

A man and woman pass a drunk who has passed out in the gutter beside a pig. The woman says, sotto voce, to her companion:

'You can tell someone who boozes by the company that he chooses!'

And the pig got up and slowly walked away.

I just don’t believe that Dion's choice of a fellow like Marrisen as his pilot wasn't a value free action. Most of the French speaking federalists from Quebec were notably absent from that little circle which surrounded the new leader while the last ballots were being counted on Saturday as well...among the group with Ignatieff was another Trudeau eminence gris - Marc Lalonde along with a great many other former Trudeau loyalists like David Smith.

We all have to do our homework and not just buy the story the Liberal friendly media is going to spin for us in the next few weeks.

The Action Plan guides all levels of government, communities, industries and stakeholders working to mitigate impacts of the left or right wingers. What are you? left or right?

First sentence gives the wrong impression - I meant 'don't believe Dion's choice was value free'.

I think he knows what kind of a thug Marissen is and picked him for that very reason - either that or he listened to the advice of people who aren't to be trusted.

Clear. Remember, he's supposed to be a calm, careful and thoughtful academic who doesn't make snap judgements and ill-considered choices.

All these things simply can't be true when he sleeps with bedfellows like Campbell's cronies, sorry folks.

Martin Brian Mulroney, PC, CC, GOQ, LLD (born March 20, 1939), was the eighteenth Prime Minister of Canada from September 17, 1984, to June 25, 1993 and was leader of the Progressive Conservative Party of Canada from 1983 to 1993. According to Canadian protocol, as a former Prime Minister, he is called "The Right Honourable" for life.

Mulroney became Prime Minister after his Progressive Conservatives won the most parliamentary seats in Canadian history. At the time, Mulroney was unique in Canadian politics in that he had never been a career politician. Instead he was a longtime businessman and he had become leader of the Progressive Conservative Party without ever having been elected to public office.

This is very interesting.

And who's governing now?

You've missed it. By attacking the right, the NDP would solidify the left. That's how it works! And this isn't to say that the Libs don't deserve criticism where its due. And they deserve alot of it. But the Cons? Even more. To not attack the right, is to support them. And what I've seen in terms of attacking the Libs and giving the Cons a bye is somewhat shameful. I should know. I'm a lefty at heart, with a brain that sits at the center.

Then where is it? What happened? Who put the Cons in charge to kill it? And it wasn't just daycare on the menu that got axed. There were environmental changes coming as well.

You mentioned how Franks thoughts that this country needs to suffer before it wakes up, you know, like South America. Well, we've got close to 40 dead soldiers this year, a billion dollar softwood giveaway, half of it going to the Republican party, for christ sakes, absolutely nothing done on the environment, guns at our borders, habeous corpus turned 180 in the courts, a destroyed Kelowna accord, a daycare program that's toast, continued taxcuts, oil subsidies and soon to be non existent federal oil royalties, a GST reduction that could slip us into deficit in the future with a housing and U.S. recession looming, 2.2 billion in annual cuts to social spending, tougher laws on crime with more jails to build, muzzling of MP's and cabinet ministers (these are elected public officals who have to answer to the public, by the way)... point is, we can times it by 10, and if the NDP still sits on their ass in terms of not putting the right in their place, they won't expand their base. The left will go to the Libs. Why? Because the Libs ARE going after the Cons.

I'm not sure why you don't get it, G. You don't represent the left by ignoring the right. You represent the left by BEING LEFT!!! The NDP is supposed to be polarizing! They're supposed to be LEFT. So why aren't they being what they are supposed to be?

I'm not asking you to vote somewhere's else. What I'm telling you to do, is to self-examine the flaws within the NDP party itself. Do you for some reason think that the Libs are the only party in need of improvement?

And the Conservatives... the true conservatives aren't even in the party any more. The Republican has no time for the David Orchards and Garth Turners of the world. Where is the true NDP? Where is the left vs this neo Con hard right?

I'm predicting the NDP get less than 20 seats in the next election. Feedback from this thread alone should clue you in as to the reasons why.

That’s what Jack does, all the time.
Roll back the sands of time to Brian Mulroney's day. Did the NDP gain when the Liberals won the election that threw him out? Not on your life. That's the problem with FPP systems, they tend to coalesce around two parties. Change the electoral system and I might agree with you. But, since Liberals and Conservatives are the "right" in my view we're busy attacking the right all the time. You need to look back at your own list of corporate directorships – there’s a lot of Liberals in them thar hills too.

The Canadian people put them in. Don’t blame me for Stephen Harper, I told you what he was all about. He didn't have to change or axe the programs - I told you he'd do that too - that's why it's too bad so many people voted for him.

C'mon Brain, you know better. The NDP were on the correct side of all those issues and you sure can't blame them for supporting Afghanistan either - remember - that was a Liberal choice. A third party (fourth after the Bloc in a lot of cases) never gets to set the agenda, remember. And I’ve been arguing with Frank for at least two months here that we should get the hell out of Afghanistan – If you check the record, dude, it was Martin who ordered the battle group into Kandahar – pee wee just kept up the chorus.

Oh, but I do get it, and so does Frank, we're the real Left Brain, not the soft wishy-washy 'liberal' way bend in the wind phony left. Look back at my posts - who says more about the need for fundamental economic change on these threads. Who responds to every low blow that idiots like cappy and working man and neocon and elliot and maestro post around here? Because I recognize the Liberals and the Conservatives are both the enemies of real progress in this country.

There are lots of flaws in the NDP. Much of the time we're far too much like the Liberals and it constantly gets us into trouble because people think there's no difference. That's why I'm not a member of the party - it is confused.

Predict all you like, it's entirely possible; after all, the people of Canada elected Stephen Harper, that's pretty stupid in my opinion too.

And, when it comes right down to it, you know in your heart of hearts that if the Liberals hadn't thought the rules didn't apply to them and gotten arrogant we'd likely still have a Liberal Government in Ottawa and Stevo would be sharpening pencils for Tom Flanagan at Calgary University.

That isn't the NDP's fault either. Oh, and by the way, if you believed the party line on this website, by the way, I can name a couple of other 'conspiracy' theories that would also be true - what's said on Tyee proves nothing.

I think you're the one who needs to check back over the tracks in the snow.

so new Liberal leader Dion is the environmental saviour?

I do not think so!

Look at what has been reported that he's said:

"Stephane Dion won a leadership convention on Saturday on the back of a promise to boost environmental sustainability and to ensure Canada sticks to the Kyoto protocol on climate change, which calls for deep cuts in Canadian emissions.
This is not a popular idea in the powerful western province of Alberta, where emissions of greenhouse gases are soaring as energy companies open up vast oil-rich tar sands.
Dion says the smarter use of modern technology -- such as storing carbon dioxide underground -- could help solve the problem."

Dion goes further with:

"We won't kill the industry, we'll make the industry sustainable," he told a news conference.

So the supposed Great Green One thinks extracting and burning oil and gas is sustainable!

Another Fossil Fool. Yeah right he has my green vote!

The only green that gets any respect is the colour of money - not the environment

Memories rusty, but I believe the NDP gained the most seats ever, in the mid forties.

Jack sure was silent with Con criticism up until the last few days of the election when it became obvious that some of the left was actually leaning right. (hard not to see why)

And thats where your missing it. The Libs are center with a bit of left and right.

Such as? Who do you have in mind? Emersons a Con now.

With NDP help.

I have no clue as to why you're using a tone with defensive statements out of context. To repeat myself, why must we continue to go down the road of failure to recognize the road to success? Its pointless!

One of your enemies borrows NDP ideas. One of them does not. But hey, if all you want is credit for ideas instead of results...

Freebear:
So what's your alternative? Kill the industry? The U.S. would start rolling in the tanks if he did. Who do you think owns Alberta? Who do you think has brainwashed Albertans to boot? You're certainly right about the money.

Its simple. If you care about the environment, you don't vote Con or Lib. You vote Green and NDP in that order. If it wasn't for the Greens, the NDP environmental platform wouldn't have changed much. If it wasn't for global warming, nothing would have changed.

I believe he's talking about little things like natural gas flares. Ever take a drive through the Alberta No. 1 at night? For what its worth, do you have any idea how much juice pump jacks suck out of powerlines? We waste a ton of energy in wasteful extraction and the only reason why big gas and oil doesn't do anything about it is because they are heavily deregulated and just plain cheap.

Yep, really rusty, here are the results:
1993 - LIB 177; BQ 34; Reform 52; NDP - 2.

You were thinking of the previous election, which Mulroney won - 1988 -
PC 169; Lib 83; NDP 43.

It's you who are being defensive, I'd be ashamed of Martin's record relative to George Bush and Afghanistan too!

Listen......:

N-O-B-O-D-Y messes with the G West' ster.

Even when he's wrong he's right ! (and in that order too).

Heed these words.

So G'ster, when are we starting your campaign with me as your manager ? You ARE the man with the plan !!!

Paul martin for a start - don't get me started. John Turner - Jean Chretien, Robert Winter, Allan Rock, John Manley, Check out the Business pages of the Globe and Mail after a politician retires or loses his seat: I could likely go on forever

Don't think so.

Guess not many people care about the environment then, too bad. Maybe it's not so simple after all.

You said that, not me. I want people to vote their own best interests. In Scandinavia that happens all the time and they almost always vote left. Why not here, Canadians must be kind of stupid. They vote for corporate enablers like the Liberals - who think the 'party' is everything, ( I just watched a whole weekend of smug wealthy people clapping each other on the back and telling nice stories about how much they 'care' - bullshit) or they vote for Fundamentalists like Harper who want to turn the country into a cult.

I can't explain it either.

But this is still out of context, G, once again. We've taken damage of which we both agree. Do we need to times it by 10 to realize we need to make changess? Again, its pointless and wasteful to believe that we do.

And for what its worth, when it comes to "records", I can't say I'm proud of Jack Laytons. Your factual numbers that have corrected my erroneous, rusty memory is more indicative of the dream opportunity Jack squandered.

Jack wasn't the leader then, remember? He became leader on January 25, 2003. Before that he did a heck of a lot of good in Toronto, need I remind you of that too?

Since taking over the leadership I don't think he's done all that badly - considering the funding he's had and the rotten electoral system.

Give me a proportional system and I bet he'd really impress you brain. How the Liberals can talk about equity and electoral fairness when they won't dump their delegate system and stop favouring FPP elections is the real mystery I'd like to have an answer to.

DO you suppose it has something to do with how much they like power for them and their friends?

C'mon brain, Adscam wasn't a bad dream, it was real and, more than anything else, that's the reason the party's still split - however much Kool-aid they've drunk last weekend.

I got out my Tarot deck last night for the first time in 20 years:
Centre was:"The Virgin"
left was: "The Actor"
Right was: " 1 of Stones"

Since my main interest is "Concrete"
I was reassured

I was talking about the 2004 election opportunity compared to 1988 AND 1993. The Libs weren't popular, you need not remind me of 'adscam', the Cons weren't popular, guess what, Jack wasn't popular either. It was a squandered opportunity to expand his base more than he did.

Actually, you did mention the NDP not getting enough credit on the previous thread (thought it was this one, by mistake :-).

.14 x 308 = 43 NDP seats... I can use a calculator. Greens get 15 seats, Marajuana party gets a seat, Canada party gets two, independants get 3 or 4, I get it, G. And the Libs with their popular 29%? 89 seats. The Cons? 114 seats. I wouldn't hold my breath for reform any time soon.

G, G,G... they like to mother and know whats best! :-)

LOL. Adscams starting to get old, dude. And I didn't detect Adscam being a major divider in the convention. Not sure what channel you were watching...

Please... don't stop. Lets hear the dirt! I want names. Corporate names as well. We all do. Please, if you have any links, book recommendations, articles, I would be glad to read up on the dirt. :-) It would be nice to offer proof.

But in terms of MP's holding office, Paul doesn't quite count. He was corporate before he held office. Directorships for a few mil here or there is somewhat of a trivial pursuit for Paul. And you've yet to name a sitting MP that does have directorships. If you know of any, please let me know. :-)

You might want to look at that can of worms a little bit more closely before you go there. We had more casualties from friendly fire under Martin than we did under Harper with less than half of the troops we have now, in far safer area's. And we do happen to have a rabid warmongerer continually pressuring us for more, south of the border.

Dirt? You've got to be kidding. How about Jean Chretien and a certain hotel and golf course in Shawinigan?
How about the Canadian crews of young Paulie's ships who got dumped in mid-voyage so he could hire cheaper crews?

How about the Ad agencies billing hundreds of thousands of dollars for action plans that David Beers wouldn't pay to publish?

How about thousands of last minute memberships sold to East Indian groups ferried in on buses to delegate selection meetings.

How about Erik Bornman(n) and Mark Marissen?

You're joking, right?

I bet there are lots of them who've put their holdings in trusts, wanna bet about that - even new Liberals like Bob Rae aren't immune.

At the moment though, I'd rather bring your attention to this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6200114.stm#map

And, if you're interested, there's another story on the New York Times website about the same subject which indicates to me that Canada may be getting awfully popular with the yankee traders in the not too distant future.

Here's the link to that one too:
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2006/12/05/americas-breadbasket-moves-to-canada/

On that Afghanistan issue, the key was the decision to send a battle group into the danger zone in Kandahar Province. It was made by Paul Martin after a little tete a tete with George at the White House and against the advice of the top generals at DND.

You can check it out.

I guess I wasn't being specific enough, G. (thought I was, though) I was looking for directorship dirt. Former MP's will do for now, but what I'm really looking for is examples like Emerson, current MP's who have had directorships relating to their place in public office. Incidentally, thats all I was referring to in terms of what you might know on the subject. How many Liberal MP's hold current directorships? Like I've said before, any information you can provide on the subject would be appreciated.

As far as Martin goes, I have checked into it. Martin began to take over for U.S. forces in Afganistan mere months before losing the election. Moving the Canadian base to Kandahar indicates this fact. But from here, it gets sketchy. It is not at all clear whether Canadians were expected to take on intended offensive military roles as the U.S. was doing.

There was a 20 man special forces unit that was being bragged up as being offensive, working along side americans, but military offensives were not the role Canada was to play upon this takeover, from my understanding of the agreement to take over from American forces in Afghanistan.

As well, Martin didn't commit the number of troops that Harper did. As far as I know, there were 900 Canadian soldiers in southern Afghanistan until Harper took over the government. Within 3 months of the election, Harper more than doubled this force to 2200 with his own initiative and headed a direct offensive campaign on behalf of U.S. interests in the most dangerous region the country had. The rest, as they say, is history.

And here's the beginning of the neocon attack against him:

And notice how he makes the first inroads against the new leader in Alberta, Stelmach had bette watch his ass.

And, mostly for Frank, but also generally on Afghanistan and Canada's continuing problems there, this editorial from the New York Times:

emphasis mine!

What neo-con attack?:

With my "mea culpa" rider that what Ezra Levant states is true re: Dion's Fench citizenship , (which I admit I was not even aware of), I wonder how many delegates were aware of this?

Dion was BORN in Canada, yet also chose to also be a "citizen" of France ???
A political LEADER has achieved the political equivalent of " a little bit pregnant".

Dion's political bio/resume' already had me a bit concerned. He went in as a "Mr. Fix It" for the ol' Quebec = Federal Liberal votes "pool". Now we see an even greater umbilical cord stretching thousands of miles across the Atlantic to the old country ?

Dion is already into LIEberal denial, "multiple identities" ..Huh?....can anyone say Sybil?

What else is in his closet? Does this guy know that much of politics is sheer image and perception?

PS No "ad hominen" on Levant please...but thanks G West for the information .

The best thing about Dion is that he'll be all about the issues and not about personality. I'll be voting Liberal since they have moved left of center, and their policies are starting to reflect that. Imagine what Harper would do with a majority! If that doesn't make you vote Liberal, nothing will. If Harper and Layton try to attack Dion with "personality" they are as doomed as when the Conservatives made fun of Chretien's mouth. Dion will stick to the issues and make them look like fools,

maestro:
You 'care' about the fact someone has dual citizenship?

Why? Gonna trot out another neocon attribute soon - loyalty oaths? A pledge of allegiance? Hand over the heart while the anthem's sung?

It doesn't matter and anyone who thinks it does is just plain silly - such attitudes belong south of the 49th where you can't even run for president if you're 'foreign' born.

Worn out attributes and accretions of well-forgotten imperialistic past.

And you don't think Levant is a neo-con?

Where have you been?

Hateful bigot wouldn't have been too strong, in my view.

G West.

....so...where YOU aware of the dual citizenship?

Also...I read this, or any story in it's context, as I try to filter out the objectivity vs. the subjectivity. If I didn't do that, I wouldn't read most of these TYEE posts , or many other authors given their past editorial notoriety and reputation.

Even YOUR own favourite Ataturks I will often read and see what they have to say.

Levant's article is no more no less "neo -con" than say, Corky Evans, its admittedly got a wee bit of spice, but I like the musing and prognistication as well as the FACTS . Levant is wrapping his article around Non - fiction.... again....FACTS.

I think you miss the point....If Dion would have dual citizenship with say...Sweden...or Ghana...or Indonesia....then perhaps more palatable. However, why acquire citizenship with France when he wasn't even born there? Most Canadians I know with dual citizenship were born elsewhere, then came here and stayed here. This implies at many levels his attachment to all things French... even to the motherland.

Perhaps he, Dion, should have acquired British citizenship so as to have one cancel the other, in this (2) founding Nations rooted ad nauseum debacle.

The honeymoon will be short ..in my view.

Maestro

Like that's really going to upset a lot of people on the Tyee ROTFLMAO

Because he did graduate studies in France and taught there he became a dual Canadian/French citizen. Big bloody deal!

I still can't imagine why anyone, you the neocon Levant, or the guy next door, gives a damn.

There is nothing there and you don't have a point any more than all the idiots did when Michealle Jean (dual French/Canada citizen) and her 'FRENCH citizen' husband were hounded to 'correct' that fault.

What's wrong with you people - you'd think you came from antebellum Alabama for God's sake.

DO you have a picture of the queen in the parlour?

And you wonder why people from Quebec feel ill at ease when they move to BC or the prairies.

BC Dude:

You put the " MAO" in ROTFLMAO.

Ciao Mao C Dude

G West:

At this juncture ,in my view, all the indicators are the LIEberal status- quo will be maintained.

The LIEberals remind me of Pro Boxing, the Great " White North" Hope, bogus saviours of a country that they have indicated "guilty of" all the blatant DNA evidence showing they planted the seeds that may lead to Canada's demise, if not simply its viability.

They are simply trying this sideshow stunt again...on a classic "Stockholm syndrome" electorate public ....OR the old gall of claiming mercy by being self -defined orphans after the last breathe escaped their parents by their own hands .

And some want to give them another chance,especially after this PAST weekend?...talk about gluttons for punishment...Joe Clark looks like Mr. Universe in comparison

And here I thought you wanted to talk about the relevance of Dion's dual citizenship.

Do you have an attention deficit disorder?

Is Dion's wife from Quebec, anyone know? Its interesting that the Dion couple adopted a child from Peru who is now 18 years old, as well.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/12/05/dion-france.html

Here's the answer we are looking for. Dion has a dual citizenship because his mother was from France. I guess if Dion was born female or native, Ezra would ridicule Dion for that as well.

I was pleased to see a real liberal win.
Not americas choice (and harpers too) "intelectual" with hoof in mouth.
My girlfriend was terrified of him. He is like a envangelical preacher.
did anyone notice that the liberals used a transferable vote to elect their leader?
So they ended up with a less sectarian leader who represents most of them.

G West:

It WAS aimed at Dion. I've laid out my view of the citizenship issue, and that Dion is simply following the normal LIEberal programming, and this issue is in sync with it.

Imagine if the Conservative party elected a leader who had dual citizenship with the United States?
There would be a firestorm of criticism from the left. What a bunch of hypocrites.

maestro -
don't think so. I think you have ADD.
IAMC - Americans, both left and right have been brought up to believe in fairy tales, not the real world - thanks for pointing it out.

Dion can do whatever he likes with my blessing - I could care less what other citizenship any Canadian has - it's a non issue. If it weren't for American idiocy they'd change their rules about having a president who was born outside the US.

Just another example of their racist and prejudiced roots. Thanks for bringing it up.

Can you spell nepotism?
Also visited by investigating officers, although not formally raided, was Mark Marissen, of Burrard Communications, who was director of the Martin campaign in B.C. - and who's also the husband of Deputy Premier Christy Clark.
This is probably why the 2003 British Columbia Legislature Raids Scandal and conspiracy of the Century is nothing but the biggest cover-up of the CENTURY by all Liberals, Provincial and Federal including CanWest media non news!
Can you say Fascichisim?
Dictatorship = Totalitarianism

High-five for the Great West. Come to think of it, I'm sure Dion's other citizenship won't even be recognized in the U.S. - he'll be a Canadian with "Freedom" roots, as they have removed the word "French" from their lexicon. Given the NeoCons adhere fairly strongly with the brilliance of Bushite thought, I figure they will see things similarly.

Read this as this is happening now!
A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear: Cicero Marcus Tullius

Right back at you, Avicenna. Keep you eyes on Mary's blog by the way.

should be 'your' eyes - dropped into hip hop vernacular there for a moment - sorry!

The above post about a dual citizenship with the U.S. How about Harpers buddy that lobbied hard with his right wing neo con propaganda (he of "Axis of Evil" infamy). He was Canadian but became a U.S. citizen but his allegiance seems to be to Israel. So what would you call him? He writes for the most right wing paper in both
Canada and the United States, and co-wrote a book with Richard Perle (the prince of darkness) that was a recipe for perpetual war.

Dion was born in Canada, but his mother was born in France and he studied in France for four years when he was young, which explains the citizenship.

I don't see it as a big deal - apparently there are over 41 MPs in parliament that have dual citizenship - in a multicultural country and global society and world it seems reasonable.

What about the universal citizenship for jews all over the world to Israel? Can anybody explain how that works? Harper and Stockwell Day have a passionate allegiance to Israel. Can somebody please explain that one to me? Christian Zionists? I don't recall Canadian taxpayers being consulted about this in anyway shape or form. Frankly, I don't agree with the move and I resent it being shoved down our throats.

So I see that a lot of NDPers will now vote for the Liberals to get rid of the Cons. Shades of '93. No doubt this will mean the NDP will be reduced to 2 seats and the Liberals will once more move strongly to the Right as there will be no Left to speak of.

A vote for the Liberals is a vote for the Right, pure and simple. Which is fine, I have no problem with anyone who votes for Liberal drunk drivers as long as they don't tell me they "care" about leftwing values. Because a vote for the Libs means you don't. Which again, is fine. We live in a democracy and people should be rightly proud to vote for the party of big business, the banks and foreign investors.

For those who shallowly claim the Liberals and the NDP are allies, history proves otherwise. The Liberals will only bne too happy to see the NDP reduced to nothingness so they can concentrate on the swing voters between themselves and the Conservatives. American politics redux.

Here's a little bit of BC light, I've been listening to this & it’s awesome great for a chuckle.

http://www.bcfiberals.com/audio/joey_only_bcfightback.mp3

Thanks for that Frank, I was wondering where you'd gotten to - it's been lonely round here since Saturday's epiphany.

BCDude - thanks for that - reminds me a bit of Brad Wills' stuff - you'll have to google him - he was the independent journalist the cops shot in Oaxaca.

Rebel wrote...

There is no doubt that in Canada, as well as, and especially the U.S., allegiance to Israel brings in big Jewish re-election money. In fact, in the U.S., most senators and congressmen base their elections on it.
Can you imagine Stockwell Day getting elected under any normal circumstances?
However it does bring up concerns about the rationality or outright intelligence of most of the Kelowna voters.

hear spears being filed and knives being sharpened.

It was reported that literally "none" of the Liberal Party’s ‘Establishment’ (Big E) and its machinery backed outsider Stéphane Dion in his run to become their Party’s new leader. Their hand-chosen “Michael Ignatieff” had always been the insiders’ candidate for the top job. ‘Their Man’ had been heralded as a “second-coming of Trudeau”.

Dion, the underdog, was never on Big E's radar scopes. Yet, in back-roomer words, this “compromise candidate”, this “lightweight”, this “unelectable”, won. This was never to have happened. Big E had developed few 'hooks' in him. He was not 'their man'.

From a shell-shocked, Big E perspective, Dion and his king-maker, Gerard Kennedy, will present major problems. These two people are sworn to “party renewal” from bottom to top. If shaking the Party’s internal timbers were to happen, it would inevitably threaten and challenge the back-room authority of Big E.

Will history be recording and comparing a parallel between Stéphane Dion’s future to that of the “Big E” backroom assassination of the most principled, ethical man that they ever had in a leader, John Napier Turner? As was John, Stéphane is an "outsider" in Big E’s halls of ‘power at any costs”.

John had become Liberal Party Leader and, automatically, the seventeenth Rt. Hon. Prime Minister of Canada as of June 30th, 1984. Nevertheless, he was ruthlessly undermined, stabbed, shafted and destroyed by the upper, insider ranks of "Big E". Two and a half months later, on September 17th, John’s ravaged body was thrown to the wolves following a lackluster campaign against Brian Mulroney. Of course, the campaign had been directed and controlled by Big E.

Even though the Liberal.ca website headlined, “New Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion Welcomed by United Liberal Caucus”, for some strange reason, I can hear a dull ‘grinding’ sound taking place on "Big E” whetstones where spears and knives are being sharpened for The Ambush.

Some advice to Dion and Kennedy: Don’t turn your backs or, to paraphrase baseball’s Yogi Berra, “It will be déjÃ* vu all over again”.

This might be true but it must be admitted that Turner made a terrible blunder in a national debate with Mulroney. Mulroney questioned Turner about the senate patronage appoinments
Turner made and his answer was that he had no control over that situation . Mulroney quickly picked up that fumble and ran for a touchdown.
Turner's smarts were always in question.

I'm gonna vote for Dion and negotiate with Giles for Vancouver Island to separate from Canada (and from B.C.). If that's the only way to get the Fiberals out then we should put them on a boat back to their "Homeland".

As stated: John Turner was the "most principled, ethical man that they (the Libs) ever had in a leader".

I should have added "honesty".

I agree, accepting Trudeau's appointments as his "responsibilities" got John eaten alive by Brian, The Endless Voice.

To make matters even worse, the Libs' den of “Big E” wolves couldn't get their hooks into Honest John. This resulted in one of the most lackluster campaigns that the Libs ever ran. John had no chance. He was DOA.

No 'hooks'. No 'stay'.

22-years ago it was "Goodbye, John".

Coming up, it'll be "Goodbye Stephane".

I have always been a little doubtful about John Napier Turner's billing as an honest man, J. Michael.

I remember him as being pretty much to the manor born here in BC. The right family, the right athletic efforts the right faculty, the right Fraternity, the right profession, the right wife...and all the rest; and then I heard him (in person) delivering a budget speech in the House of Commons while I lived in Ottawa - and he came across as the most incredible stuffed shirt and phony.

You and I must walk down other sides of the isle - although I do agree that Brian Mulroney played him like a violin. I suppose the establishment in the Liberal Party 'was' more enamored with Brian's plans for the economy so there may well be some truth to the matter.

So often in this country’s history the big decisions are made in advance and the politicians just find ways to cajole the rather 'dull' population into coming along for the ride.

I wonder how many media professionals Stephen Harper has on tap for his upcoming conversion into a great supporter of native rights? Lots of them, I'd guess - Gordon Campbell seems to be showing him the way.

Has it ever occurred to you that the connection between the Campbell clan and Dion is a way of 'undermining' the Liberals and actually helping Harper?

It shows just how low the bar is set if John Turner is "the most principled, ethical man that (the Liberals) ever had in a leader".

His speech to open the election campaign in 1988 did not even mention the Free Trade Agreement. But after David Orchard and others helped turn the majority of Canadians against the FTA, stopping the legislation suddenly became what Turner called "the cause of my life".

Throughout the camaign - and especially in the leaders debates - Turner was opportunistic and fake. One can only wonder who should be considered the least principled and most unethical Liberal leader.

That, Beacon Hill, would be a hotly contested competition.

I'm hunting through my gymbag later for an article I saved from either the Sun or the Globe, written by one of the Muslim delegates. According to him, Dion's victory was built on various ethnic and religious blocs; the 400 delegates who moved from the Kennedy camp to Dion were all Khalistan-separatist Sikhs, for instance. The article isn't available in the on-line edition so I'll have to type it out here later, with more similar details. The Tamil Tigers and Islamist groups were also named in the article as having conducted power plays during the convention....

Why is it that the media, including the Tyee, having given ethnic/race/religion based cabals a free ride here? The same thing goes on in the Tories, albiet with a more Christian fundie flavour, but it strikes me that the ethnic/multiculturalist finagling behind Dion's selection should have been a major topic of discussion. Instead of being ignored completely, and numbers talked about abstractly, as if actual people and their venal, self-serving political goals weren't involved.

Bring it on Skookum1: I didn't see that number of the Globe. I have some significant suspicions about the folks who helped push the leader over the top too - as if you hadn't noticed.

Today's language in the province, in an article/opinion piece, can't remember whose, said that "Canadians had picked Dion" etc; and as some kind of wondrous around-the-backroom modesty icon. Nope, it was all cynical politics and vote-buying; I'm pretty sure I haven't trashed that clipping and will look for it this evening.

That is... - we HAD? Since when? Card-carrying Liberals picked Dion, that's who picked Dion.

And maybe just a significant 'sub-group' of them - if you catch my drift.

http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20060916233655368
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/AFTF_P_1/signatures-241.html An awesome article with many great sites!

http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20060916233655368

http://www.freedomtofascism.com./

Oh Canada "From Freedom to Fascism"
I can feel that something isn't right and its creeping and gaining speed every day that WE don't WAKE UP
WE are in the grip of a very ruthless corporate takeover of OUR Federal, Provincial and Regional Democratic political system!
If WE don't fight back NOW it will be the end of OUR Democracy and our Freedoms for all of OUR Future Generations!
All WE have to do is look around US all of OUR media both printed and televised has nothing but garbage for news CanWest/Global TV, CNTV.
Have you seen anything in the media about the 2003 Legislature Raids scandal?

To get the latest http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/
Thanks to BC Mary she has all the archives pertaining to this case of a massive conspiracy and cover-up by OUR local msm, going all the way up to the federal liberal party!
Gordon Campbell's BC liberals are embroiled in massive corruption and theft of OUR the citizens and taxpayers of this beautiful province of British Columbia!
WHY ARE WE SILENT?
OUR TAX DOLLARS ON TELEVISION ADS TELL US EVERYDAY!
What Is the True Cost of These Ads and Couldn't This Money Be Better Spent Building Low Income Family Units?

DO NOT KEEP SILENT when your own ideas and values are being attacked. ...If a dictatorship ever comes to this country, it will be by the default of those who keep silent. WE are still free enough to speak. Do WE have time? No one can tell." -- Ayn Rand, Philosophy I can feel that something isn't right and its creeping and gaining speed every day that we don't WAKE UP
As far as Stephen Dion?

http://www.tetracom.ca/transtalk/?p=1010

As We BCer's let this Our Once Beautiful Province go to these very greedy, evil corporations rape/destroy Our Air, Our Rivers, Our Forests, Our Oceans, Our Water, Our's and Our Children's Future
DECEMBER 31 06 HAPPY NEW YEAR "NOT"
Gordon you've sold your Soul 4 what?

Found the op-ed piece I was talking about, in Saturay Dec 6's Globe and Mail. The author is Tarek Fatah, host of Muslim Chronicle on CTS-TV and founder of the Muslim Canadian Congress. He was a volunteer organizer for Bob Rae and a delegate at the convention, hence an eyewitness to the manipulations he describes:

The diminutive Father Xavier did not mince his words in laying out out the price for the suppot of the 45 Tamil Canadian deleegates to the Liberal convention: "Mr. Rae, I am great fan of yours and you have done a lot for the Tammil community as premier of Ontario, but will you promise to delist the Tamil Tigers from Canada's list of terrorist organizations, if you become leader of the Liberal Party and prime minister of Canada?"

Mr. Rae replied that if Tamil Canadians wanted the Tiger to be delisted, they should pressure the LTTE to do what Yasser Arafat did with the PLO and Nelson Mandla did with the NAC. "Firstly, there can be no military solution to the war in Sri Lanka and, second, if any politicians promises you that will help delist the LTTE as a terrorist organization, he is not telling the truth," he said. His response did not go down well - and nary a Bob Rae button was to be found on the 45 Tamil CAnadian delegates at the convention.

In the months leading up to the Montreal convention, several groups such as this could be found bargaining the price of their cadre of delegates. Besides supporters of the Tamil Tigers, the groups included Kurdish backers of the imprisoned Abdullah Ocalan, remnants of the pro-Khalistan Sikhs, and Islamist Muslims.

Perhaps the most influential of these groups would turn out to be the Khalistani Sikh Canadians, many from areas west of Toronto, who voted en masse for Gerard Kennedy in the convention's first and second ballots.

Bob Rae had advised the Liberal government on the public interest for an inquiry into the 1985 Air-Indian bombing. It would come back to haunt him. The bombing featured in some of the exchanges when Mr. Rae adddressed a South Asian event in Montreal on Friday. When Mr. Rae slammed the terrorists responsible for Canad's worst act of terrorism, he found little support in the room. "He is referring to all Sikhs as terrorists," one delegate said to a B.C. senator campaigning for Mr. Rae. "Not true," the Senator said, but the delegate simply walked away.

Another religious gropus, the Canaidan Islamic Congress, organized by Mohammed Elmasry, sent out a mass e-amiol to its members with the subject line: "More Canadian Mulsims than ever before will help determine Liberal Leadership Outcome." A religiously observant breakfast was arranged for Muslim delegates to the convention, and one Kennedy dlegate organizing amnong the Muslim community setn out a letter to the coutnjry's mosques, asking for Mulsims to vote "en masse" for one candidate. The Islamic Congress had given Mr. Kennedy an A grade, while listing several other hopefuls on a scale from a B to an F. This led to a spirited response from Ignatieff delegate Salma Siddiqui, who is a vice-president of the secular Muslim Canadian Congress. "Mulsims are not a herd of cattle to be sold to the higest bidder," she responded.

cont...

...cont:

It became a popular refrain. On Friday, a group of delgates coming from a brekafast arranged by the Canadian Islamic Congress taunted me: "Is Bob Rae going to be the prime minister of Israel or the prime minister of Canada?"

Twop rookie MPs, Omar Alghabra, a Muslim, and Navdeep Bains, a Sikh, held the tyrings of as many as 400 delegates in the Kennedy camp. When the time came, these delegates moved as a bloc to Mr. Dion.

Stephane Dion may not know this, but his victory came in part through a political process that feeds on racial and religious exploitation. I respect the diversity of Canada, but I want to celebrate what unitees us, not what divides us into tiny tribes that can be maniuplated by leaders who sell us to the highest bidder."

I think the worst part of all this is that new Canadians enlisted into "the political process" (the party machines, be they Grit, Tory or NDP) campaign not on a basis of what's good for Canada and other Canadians, but on behalf of distant (and generally unresolvable) foreign policy matters; a transposition to our polity of the "ancient hatreds" which in "pre-multicultural" Canada we were all so proud to have left behind in the other continents. Here it's front and centre in the selection of one of the most senior political offices in the country, potentially the highest one (if Dion beats Harper, which even though I think Dion is a dud I hope is the case).

Dion wasn't chosen by Canadians. He was chosen by packs of delegates committed to war and unrest and discord in other countries. Delegates who feel free to viciously slander candidates and their supporters, refusing (as in apartheid/Israel incantation described above) to listen to debate, or to recognize that, well, this selection of a prime minister should have been about Canada, not about Palestine/Israel, not about Kurdistan, not about Khalistan, not about Tamil Eelam.

It doesn't seem accidental, given the tide of new-CAnadian delegates and their decidedly "offhore agendas", that we have a prime ministerial candidate who's one of those carrying a "passport of convenience" from another country; i.e. one of their own in terms of being an officially-hyphenated Canadian. Not as if France is going to trump Canada in Dion's thinking or policies, but his duality is a reminder that the policies and priorities of many who selected him have NOTHING TO DO WITH CANADA OR THE WELL-BEING OF OTHER CANADIANS. Tribalism has infected our body politic thanks to official multiculturalism and the high-stakes wheedling of the big party machines in their search for supporters, members, and funds. New Canadians apparently recognize our system for what it is - a system of bagmen and buyouts and influence-mongering. Most of the rest of us disdain joining the Big Parties for exactly those reasons; but it's exactly those reasons which appeal to those seeking a platform to grind their own respective axes.

Pls note also that our networks and news media, other than this one op-ed article, have blacked out any discussion of the ethnic ingroup-finagling at the Liberal convention; it's as if it's a no-discussion topic, a dirty secret. One that a lot of reporters must have wanted to report on, but editors/publishers/owners must have ruled out-of-line for whatever reasons of their own.

Dion as a party leader reminds me of nothing so much as Skelly. A well-meaning dud with no TV presence/saleability whose unsaleability might wind up with us seeing anothe Tory minority, or (god help us) a Tory majority. He'd better improve his English damned fast is all I can say; and ditch that French passport....

Thanks Skookum1 - above and beyond the call of duty my friend.

It has always troubled me that, for fear of offending the Indo-Canadian community, we have failed to protect members of that community from exploitation.

When they find that they've mysteriously become paid-up Liberal Party members ... when they're loaded into buses and hauled to nomination meetings ... when they're told who to vote for and who not to vote for ... these people aren't getting a fair start in a new country.

And Canada isn't getting the upright, intelligent citizens this country deserves, either.

Damned if I know what's to be done about it, though. You?

Integration.

Check This Out!
On December 13, 2006 @ 8pm Our BC time, Listen & Hear this on http://www.cfrb.com/

http://www.iwtnews.com/home

http://www.iwtnews.com/videoplayer/phil_donahue
A NEW HOPE FOR US!