ahh Grumpy, if only I could believe that prediction:

I wish I could, then I would vote LIEberal for the first time ever, just to see that action (break-up of the country) come true.

I do not believe it for a second, there are too many whom believe that graft has a place in our nation's life and that because of this, were the LIEberals to return to office federally, Canada would remain whole (if only because of the ghost of P.E.T. haunting the PMO...)

I am most pleased that the 'saviour of Canada' Mr. Dithers, ahh . . . what was his name, was not 'up' to the task of sitting in the huge dump of crap that Darth Cretinous left in the chair.

Bob Rae as PM, god help us, as he is a professional loser by all accounts. The rest of the pack are just also rans. I lost interest in the Libs. When heddy Fry ran. Look, she had enough followers to fund her to as far as she got, is scary, real scary.

I think Harper & his gang of American sympathisers, will dish up Canada like an American Thanks-giving and the Liberals will just pretend they are important. Canada is lost, sold out by Quisslings and flim-flam men working for other governments.

Until Canadians stand up and take back the country, and soon, all is lost.

Don't forget to read Ignatieff's essay, "Who Are Americans To Think That Freedom Is Theirs To Share?"

It's in the New York Times.

Ignatieff forgot to mention that he's a Canadian when he wrote it.

It would get the award for the most fawning, obsequious and sleazy synchophancy ever written--if there were such an award.

This was not necessary. How is your French, Rafe? Moreover it is contradicted by experience: if one travels in Quebec, it is possible for an Anglophone to get proficient service in English. Just try getting service in French in the western provinces!

I watched the latest lieberal leadership debate on TV.
Quite the performance really, wrapping themselves in the flag and god bless Ontario ohh and maybe Quebec!
It was interesting how they agreed that the economy is bad (which it is in Ontario), but had no platform about what to do?
It is easy to show how useless Harpo is, but just saying elect lieberals is hardly very convincing!
Would they propose to get us out of our NAFTA agreement then they would have shown some understanding!
They can elect whichever candidate they want, the voters will elect whichever party they fancy, and the libs have no hope!
Seeing where the Harpo gang also has proven their inability to tackle the job, Guess who that leaves?

Truman - I disagree entirely and agree with Ignatieff. He will certainly face a struggle within his own party, which may ultimately push Rae ahead.

Ignatieff supports the Iraq war, the war in Afghanistan any much of the U.S.'s foreign policy. Domestically, he is far more left wing. He is basically an NDPer on domestic issues , and a conservative on international issues.

Personally, I think far too much has been made out of the war in Afghanistan. It is a terrible thing, but used by the left-slanted media to portray the conservatives as war mongering fascists. The truth is that the war is sanctioned by the UN and most countries are actually involved.

This truly was a country controlled by terrorists. Without it, 9/11 as well as several other international acts of terrorism would never have occured.

I think Ignatieff believes in strong social programs and extreme tolerance. He wishes to share this with the entire world - which outside of our cozy country is full of violence, oppression, hunger and disease.

The Americans are the only country capable of achieving this. Look at what they have helped China, India and Brazil achieve indirectly - through liberal trading laws. Their economic influence is far reaching.

Anyway - I see a world full of bad things. I don't know that the USA has taken the right steps, but they have moved. There were bigger threats to global peace than Saddam, but there were few bigger than those prevailing in Afghanistan.

I am sure Ignatieff agrees - we can't do nothing. That being said, he is far too left on economic issues. Mr. Harper will undoubtedly receive my vote. Mr. Martin almost got it on his record as Finance Minister - but I saw a weak man, with few principles - guided by the polls and no sense of identity.

alive:

there is nothing that the feds can do for Ontario's provincial economy. What is holding it down is the high dollar, decreased auto manufacturing and poor productivity.

they got lazy in those years of the 55 cent dollar, and simply raked in the profits.

The only thing they can do is throw further subsidies at the manufacturing sector. We all know this is not a reasonable approach. The Ontario government could help. They are heavily taxed, and laden with red tape.

The Bank of Canada could help by slashing rates, and the treasury board could increase the money supply. This would bring the dollar down. However, this would push the Western Economies too hard.

Commodity prices are coming down - when they do, the dollar will follow. We are merely in one phase of an economic cycle - and it is up to the provice to ensure that hard times are moderated. The Ontario Liberals have done a terrible job.

Quebec's economy has been relatively resiliant given it is manufacturing based.

Capitalism:
What 'left-slanted media' are you talking about?

Cappy/Maybelle

Even according to the offical version of things the folks who perpetrated 9/11 came primarily from, wait for it, Saudi Arabia.

What have you been smoking?

Rafe,

Dryden is a prince of a guy and his heart is in the right place. But I am unable to listen to the man speak. He speaks so slowly and rambling and I don't have the ability to stick with him at that speed. He is well-loved and should be a prominent face of the Liberal party at all the ribbon cuttings and ceremonies where he can be brief and people will connect with him.

Those of you who think that they're "all crooks or soon to be crooks" have to watch Gerard Kennedy. He began his career running the Edmonton foodbank without a penny of government funding, by bringing together churches, synagogues, mosques, and businesses to work together. Then he brought this "enterprise model" to Toronto before running for election against the Harris government.

Taking over the $17 billion education portfolio in Ontario, which had the same history of union/government animosity as we have here, he completely turned it around and built strong relationships with everyone involved. Teachers there signed a 5 year contract without having to dangle bonuses and bribes over them. The guy says things like "Education policy isn't made in my office on the 26th floor. There are 25,000 stakeholders and they all have my e-mail address."

I'm not much of a Liberal, but I signed up to volunteer for this guy because I believe that I don't get to complain about the choices on election day if I don't try to be a part of picking better choices.

If Iggy wins, I'm out on the street again.

What exactly is 'extreme tolerance'?

How about the current bogeymen on every front page in the country? Did you forget Israel/Palestine; Iran; North Korea - Have you been submerged for the weekend?

I won't even bother with your 'joke' economics.

Sheesh!

Mr. West,

They were long flushed out of Saudi Arabia - many exiled. They were provided with refuge in...wait...afghanistan.

Big difference and I am not longer going to respond to you if you continue with this crap. You are not worth my breath if you are delusional enough to suggest that Afghanistan was a vacation spot.

Get lost.

BTW, Cappy, if you'd taken the time to check you'd realize that productivity and profitability per unit in Ontario auto plants is significantly ahead of productivity down south. As a matter of fact, I posted a story here some months ago about how a Japanese car company decided to expand its plant here in Canada rather than in, Kentucky I think it was, because of that very reason. I know you seem to prefer Americans to Canadians from Ontario - that's no surprise from someone whose favourite holiday destination is Las Vegas - but try to get at least some facts straight.

You're the one who's lost, Cappy. Have another drink.

West:

Actually no I didn't. It doesn't take a fool to know that those threats exist, and may or may not be bigger than the former Afghanistan. That is why I said -

Good for you West - you named them. Thanks for spelling them out for everybody. You have to learn to read between the lines. You are so close-minded and miserable.

And I guess you believed all that folderol about huge complex multi-level controlled atmosphere cave hideouts in the mountains of Tora Bora too. Watched a little too much Fox Television while you were down south on your latest junket, eh!

You should see if you could get American citizenship. Bush is running out of folks who still believe that stuff in the lower 48... have you checked the GOP's popularity in the States lately?

Here's something you might actually want to read before you hold forth the next time on Afghanistan: (it's long so it'll have to be in 2 parts - be patient!)

Promises Not Kept
By PAUL KRUGMAN; BOB HERBERT IS ON VACATION.

Five years ago, the nation rallied around a president who promised vengeance against those responsible for the atrocity of 9/11. Yet Osama bin Laden is still alive and at large. His trail, The Washington Post reports, has gone ''stone cold.'' Osama and his deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri, are evidently secure enough in their hideaway that they can taunt us with professional-quality videos.

They certainly don't lack for places to stay. Pakistan's government has signed a truce with Islamic militants in North Waziristan, the province where bin Laden is presumed to be hiding. Although the Pakistanis say that this doesn't mean that bin Laden is immune from arrest, their claims aren't very credible.

Meanwhile, much of Afghanistan has fallen back under the control of drug-dealing warlords and of the Taliban, which sheltered Al Qaeda before it was driven from Kabul. NATO's top commander has appealed for more troops; the top British commander in Afghanistan has said that fighting there is fiercer than in Iraq. And the numbers bear him out: since the beginning of 2006, the NATO force in Afghanistan has had a higher rate of fatalities than that suffered by coalition troops in Iraq.

The path to this strategic defeat began with the failure to capture or kill bin Laden. Never mind the anti-Clinton hit piece, produced for ABC by a friend of Rush Limbaugh; there never was a clear shot at Osama before 9/11, let alone one rejected by Clinton officials. But there was a clear shot in December 2001, when Al Qaeda's leader was trapped in the caves of Tora Bora. He made his escape because the Pentagon refused to use American ground troops to cut him off.

No matter, declared President Bush: ''I truly am not that concerned about him,'' he said about bin Laden in March 2002, and more or less stopped mentioning Osama for the next four years. By the time he made his what-me-worry remarks -- just six months after 9/11 -- the pursuit of Al Qaeda had already been relegated to second-class status. A long report in yesterday's Washington Post adds detail to what has long been an open secret: early in 2002, the administration began pulling key resources, such as special forces units and unmanned aircraft, off the hunt for Al Qaeda's leaders, in preparation for the invasion of Iraq.

At the same time, the administration balked at giving the new regime in Kabul the support it needed. As he often does, Mr. Bush said the right things: the history of conflict in Afghanistan, he declared in April 2002, has been ''one of initial success, followed by long years of floundering and ultimate failure. We're not going to repeat that mistake.''

But he proceeded to do just that, neglecting Afghanistan in ways that foreshadowed the future calamity in Iraq. During the first 18 months after the Taliban were driven from power, the U.S.-led coalition provided no peacekeeping troops outside the capital city. Economic aid, in a destitute nation shattered by war, was minimal in the crucial first year, when the new government was trying to build legitimacy. And the result was the floundering and failure we see today.

West:

Last thing - again you need to read. I never said the Automobile sector was unproductive. In fact, Honda and Toyota have been very productive - they are machine-intensive plants - with less labour. Neither is unionized and both have received significant subsidies from various levels of government.

I made two consecutive points 1) automobile sector AND 2) manufacturing productivity is poor. Both are true. Parts/vehicle manufacturing is one of the industries which is actually relatively competitive.

Most other industries are significantly less productive.

How did it all go so wrong? The diversion of resources into a gratuitous war in Iraq is certainly a large part of the story. Although administration officials continue to insist that the invasion of Iraq somehow made sense as part of a broadly defined war on terror, the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence has just released a report confirming that Saddam Hussein regarded Al Qaeda as a threat, not an ally; he even made attempts to capture Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

But Iraq doesn't explain it all. Even though the Bush administration was secretly planning another war in early 2002, it could still have spared some troops to provide security and allocated more money to help the Karzai government. As in the case of planning for postwar Iraq, however, Bush officials apparently refused even to consider the possibility that things wouldn't go exactly the way they hoped.

West:

Again - I never said I agreed with Bush. I conceded that Iraq may not have been the right direction, what do you want from me.

Get lost.

Even the former big 3 - GM, Ford and Chrysler - if you'd taken the time to check, are far more productive in Canada than in the US.

Capitalism, is it possible that Ignatieff's apparent contradictions portray a man who actually believes in nothing?

I want, and expect, exactly what I always get from you on these pages - precisely nothing. You're a waste of space and a bigger waste of time.

You're more fun when you're writing about the joys of imbiding and playing the tables at Vegas.

Truman,

No I wouldn't say so - though I am no fan of Ignatieff. You don't always have to ideologically rigid in this world. He has rationalized his beliefs, and it is up to you whether or not you agree with them.

I think he has been quite forthright with his opinions. It has actually been refreshing to see this - far cry from Martin and the teflon man, Chretien.

The Liberals are the best "politicians". They are very good at ducking and dodging issues - and diverting attention to the more controversial stances that the NDP, Tories must take to appease their base.

In fact, all I remember is Martin slamming the Tories on the SSM position, yet not even answering whether or not he believed in it. He was firmly against it until 2002 (on record), then he has this massive change of heart.

Whether Canadians are more conservative or not - is up for debate. What isn't up for debate is that we don't actually like to think of ourselves as conservative. Especially when you have a right wing moron running our neighbour country!

The Liberals know this - but are also cognizant of the fact that Canadians care about the economy and fiscal responsibility. They can hammer the NDP on one side, hammer the conservatives on the other - giving people the impression that they are the balanced choice.

I would like to see a man that campaigns on his philosphies, principles and vision - rather than what the days polls are telling him to say. Layton and the NDP do it, Harper and the Tories do it - it is about time the Liberals followed suit and let Canadians decide which vision they agree with!

By the way Rafe, I think you're absolutely right about Dryden. The fact that his French is on a par with John Diefenbaker's dooms him to the status of an also-ran.

He is a thoughtful, truthful and hard working man who - after a hard slog - managed to create a national childcare program in this country to address the needs of young families, working mothers and children. It wasn't perfect but it didn't deserve to be gutted and thrown on the srap heap by the current imposter at 24 Sussex Drive and replaced by a hundred dollar a month bribe that is worse than nothing toward addressing the real needs of Canadians.

He's a good man. He deserves better than the treatment he's been given by his own party.
I hope he’ll stay on and resume his important ‘service’ to the country even though he won’t win the leadership next month.

Root away!

Well, Cap, I'm now a bit of a Ignatieff completist, and I think that he's just an opportunist with an infantile infatuation with American imperialism; and only in Canadian politics as a personal quest adventure, co-incidental with a flirtation with the possibility of bringing Canada into the American republic, for which his love is sometimes embarrassing to see.

However, Cap, I admit I was wrong about Ignatieff believing in nothing.

He does seem to believe in torturing suspected terrorists.

Did you happen to read the long profile of Ignatieff in the Globe and Mail on August 25 written by Michael Valpy?

It runs to 31 pages of 'Word' text or I'd post it for you Cappy. I expect you can still find it on the web though, if you're actually interested.

Pay particular attention to the things he says about his younger brother Andrew and the way he's dealt with family matters.

Sounds like a helluva a guy to me. Not.

Truman - the guy is an elitest who has spent the majority of his life in acedamia! He is well researched, well education and by all accounts very brilliant. Though, I don't believe academics and populists should be running our country. Bob Rae is a populist. Though Harper is an academic, he is trained in practical politics and not theoretical. He has extensive experience in politics and economics.

I do agree that this might well be another self-conquest. This is evidenced by the....oh....two months he spent in public office before running for the leadership of the Liberal party.

Though, for who is it not? Other than Harper, who really doesn't seem to be there as a conquest or for fame. He (and Gordon Campbell) seem to be there to make a difference - whether you agree with them or not. Neither are great politicians, extremely likeable or charasmatic. Neither seem self-absorbed, though both appear to love public policy.

Jack Layton looks like he is trying out for the lead role in his highschool play, though I do give Ms. James some credit.

And while you're at it, Cappy, here's another story you might want to read- pay particular attention to the last paragraph when you're thinking about hoe awful Afghanistan and Iraq are:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2404345,00.html

should be 'how' and not hoe - sorry!

I do not think it matters who the Liberals choose as their new leader. I will still vote NDP to try and avoid a Conservative majority.

The Liberals kikely need to be punsihed one more time in a federal election. As was pointed out in the laterst leadership debate-why has there been no discussion on re-tooling/reforming the Liberal Party of Canada.

To me, the same approach is there, and frankly it reeks!

"Ken’s problem is that he doesn’t sound like he’s the best and that’s because he continues to speak truthfully with an abundance of common sense. No politician can behave that way and get away with it."

To me, Rafe outlined the problem right there.! In politics, common sense loses!

Funny, recently I was thinking perhaps there should be a Common Sense Party! ..Obviously it seems the difficulty may be in finding Party Members and Candidates!

As the Mounties always get their man(?)
I propose that we send Zaccerdelli to Pakistan/Afghanistan to flush out Osama Bin Laden .
Notice how this whole affair has all but disappeared from the main stream press ?

Dryden's nice but he can't talk.

The line-up of federal Liberal leadership hopefuls look like a strong team, therefore a strong Cabinet.

With enough new energy and brains to make a big improvement over the Harpoons.

You just got to be kidding, the Liberal leadership hopefuls will make a strong cabinet? What are you groeing in your basement!! They are a joke, a bunch of Ontario and Quebec used to be's!

Bob Rae?, Volpy?, Iggy?, Fry?, Oh yes my heart just a quivers! It would be better to vote for the raving looney party!

Here is Canad's problem, fourth rate politicians for a second rate country.

Hey, Grumps: you in the NWO post-industrial milieu, where opinions must not differ?

I don't grow it. Or use it. But I've heard that marijuana is helpful to those who suffer from such extreme grumpiness.

Be sort of nice when the Liberal leadership has been decided , and for a couple of reasons
1. The Cons will be on the way out
2. all the blog experts will then be able to say I told you so.

Whoever becomes leader must realize that they will be a lame duck leader until the Liberals can show they have changed their ways and ousted corrupt Party Members.

I do not know if this is possible when accusations of misconduct/cheating during membership/delegates drives!

That may be why Belinda Stronach is not running (or perhaps its harder to switch parties if you are a leader!)!

Cripes, I nearly missed out on ol' Grump's advice, where he says "Better to vote for the raving looney party!" meaning the Harpoons. Ha! Good one, Grumps. Right on.

P.S. I think Hedy Fry has dropped out, and Joe Volpe will soon be gone ... the rest of the federal Liberals do appear to show the Harper Conservatives up as the raving looney party.

Thanks for the tip, Grumps. I won't forget.

Hey Rafe, we're singing the same song on this one. I was really disappointed that Dryden didn't do better in the first voting for delegates. I really don't like the idea of Iggy, just because I think it would be nice for him to be around for awhile before feeling entitled to run the place. Aside from the fact that Mr. Dryden is a very intelligent man who holds values I respect, I felt that it never hurts to have name recognition either. It's not like he didn't stand up for Canada in 72.

There seems to me too much of a whiff of backroom stuff that Iggy walks in from wherever he's been and starts off as the favorite. Favorite with whom and why?

I was favorably impressed with the way Gerard Kennedy responded to the Harp Seal's over the top comments regarding how much all the liberal leadership hopefuls hated Israel. The Harp's comments alone gave me hope, as I sense perhaps a growing desperation in the chubby one. His whole campaign and rule have been so characterized by controling the message and andything his ministers or members might utter. I like to think he is getting internal polling that shows him that he is losing support and his dreams of a majority are in danger.

I think there will be a new PM in Israel soon, but you're not in the running Stephen, the country you would like to really be Prime Minister of is Canada. Israel shouldn't have an immunity to criticism, but really any candidate's feeling vis-a-vis Israel is quite a ways down the list of issues of importance to Canadian voters, or at least it should be.

I've on occasion wondered if really deep in his heart the Harp would rather be PM of Canada or governor of a 51st state of Alberta.

The continual talk and criticizing candidates because they are from the East does not sit well with me. I may be naive but first we are Canadians and secondly we are citizens of the province we live in. Harper is not exactly inspiring any confidence in me if this is what we get from a 'Western' leader. Bashing the East is not conducive to getting this country out of the hands of, in this case, a Westener who will sell us down the river to Uncle Sam. We have to join forces and dump the control freak currently in power and to hell with what part of the country we are from. I've always been offended by the East versus West thing. When I travel and am asked where I am from my reply is Canada, not BC. My loyalty is to my country, not my province. As Rkewen says above, we may in our lifetime have to switch our loyalty to the cesspool down south. We have to get past the east/west thing because time is running out.

I was disparing because it seemed like Tyee folks don't even care about the liberal leadership race. I know a lot of folks here including myself like the NDP, some more, some less. But I realize the idea of an NDP PM is kinda like thinking the Canucks are going to win the Stanley Cup. Federally the NDP at it's best has been the conscience of the government when people like Tommy Douglas and Ed Broadbent strode the halls of Parliament. I was even impressed with Alexa the other day when everybody was making such a big deal about Stephen getting ready to write a letter of complaint to his buddy George Dubya expressing Canada's displeasure with the American treatment of Mehar Arar. She was sensible enough to point out that the Harp (and Canadian government he represents, now) hadn't so much as offered Mr. Arar an apology itself, so hold the human rights indignation for a minute or two perhaps.

The next PM of Canada is either going to be one of the people Rafe is discussing in this article or (shudder) the current unmentionble chubby fellow. There is no question that Iggy, Bob Rae, Gerard Kennedy, Stephane Dion or Ken Dryden would be an immense improvement over the current quisling. Thus because I hope the next PM isn't Bush's Great Northern Poodle, I think becoming aware of where these candidates stand is of great import.

I saw Iggy on of all places George Strom....'s? the Hour last night and at least he isn't an ideologue, especially not a right wing ideologue and I thought he did a pretty good job of thinking and speaking on the spot. He's still not my choice, but will be if it's him or the Harpoon.

Well put rkewan. Did you ever answer that email of coyote's? Take a minute if you haven't and send one to him at

or me at

You too aalborg, if you're interested.

I've voted liberal my entire life. Maybe I should apologise, but, I won't!Elizabeth May, and I don't even know where she is from, has me considering Green. That's if we don't become a dictatorship before the next election. Nothing would surprise me when it comes to the buffoon in the PM office. May is at least passionate and articulate. The others' passion seems contrived and designed to fit the moment. She comes across as caring about this country and not just one small corner of it. She hasn't yet become corrupted and watching every word she utters because she is afraid of offending some group or another. If she is elected I don't have faith she will be able to remain 'clean' once she walks through the door of the House, but hope springs eternal. She may become the new voice of conscience in Ottawa. Smiling Jack doesn't inspire me in that regard. She isn't the weak, wilted woman that Ambrose and Findlay are. I'd like to see Harpo try and keep May meek and silent! I am JUST.SO.TIRED. of the games and the backroom goings on and the feeling of evil that oozes from every candidate in every party. It is time to simplify but I know that won't happen. There are no answers. We have to accept the inevitable. We're screwed.

May was an environmental policy advisor to Lyin Brian!

From what I see the Greens still base their platform on the paradigm of economic growth, which does not sound sustainable to me. There are indeed limits. If there are limits on a NASA spacecraft then we should recognize that there are limits on Spaceship Earth!

rkewen, of course Iggy's not an ideoloque. Ideoloques have deep-seated personal social and political beliefs.

Ignatieff doesn't. That's why nobody can figure out if he's a small l liberal or small c conservative.

He's neither. Do you guys have any idea how RARE this kind of a personality is?

Trust me, Ignatieff's only on Ignatieff's team. It's the power and aggrandizement.

I thought George Strombolopoulos did a pretty good job of trying to bring out the real Ignatieff.

Truman,

You have a point. I can't decide about ideologues, mainly whether they really believe in their ideology or it just conveniently supports their agenda, which with fascists and neo-cons is primarily personal greed.

The effect of ideological thought (oxymoron alert) that I detest is its dummying down of every issue into black and white ala Ronnie Raygun or the current Idiot in Chief. I personally prefer people who seem to grasp the complexity and inter-relatedness of things to be making decisions that effect my life, the life of my children and grandchildren and the planet we all for the forseeable future have to share.

The whole neo-con PNAC strategy is to avoid sharing the limited resources at our disposal as inhabitants of the planet, keeping the wealth where it resides currently, and securing all that isn't already in the hands of the same crowd.

That is why some one like George Bush is so bad for the US, for Canada and the rest of the planet. He sees and tries to portray the world in comic book and wild west analogies that completely miss the point and don't address any of the real issues. But Murcans like the comic book hero or wild west type like Shane - complexity is frightening to people who look to Limbaugh or O'Reilly for answers to the challenges facing us all.

Freebear....yeah, I saw that display when lying brian was honoured as Canada's greenest PM. I will admit I wasn't impressed by May's speech at that event. I am just in a quandry and becoming more fearful with each day that passes. I grab at straws. The US election next month, has the world on the edge of their seats. What happens there affects all of us on this planet. The control over our future is hijacked by a small group of people and I find it unbelievable. I know that ultimately there is nothing any of us can do, but it is frustrating to the nth degree. So I will no doubt continue to grab at straws because sitting back and taking it is not an alternative for me at this point.

Pardon me while I gag! I guess this is because the Haida Nation forced his hand over South Moresby and he was too preoccupied being "On the Take."

"So I will no doubt continue to grab at straws because sitting back and taking it is not an alternative for me at this point."

Me too, No doubt! If you grab enough straws maybe you can stay afloat.

I know I get a sore head from banging it against the wall, but if I stop it gives them time to add to the walls thickness!

Peak Oil/Climate Change/Pandemics will eventually teah us all a lesson; hopefully mother earth/Gaia wil recover! Actually she will always recover, but she just may flick us off her back to make it easier!

Oops, darn typing skills (as bad as George Strombobpulous (sp)!)

That should read "teach"

News flash from Washington Post:

I know this is off topic, but whoa here!

Does this mean he can come back from that tropical island where he's been hiding out while pretending to be dead? There's a guy doing a "third strike" life sentence somewhere in the states for stealing a SLICE of pizza and this guy steals millions, maybe billions and doesn't even have a record. Then they wonder why people are losing faith in politicians, judges etc.

Rafe may be bad at picking a new leader for the Liberal party but I will put my money on Dion any day. Third runners have a way of winning party leadership races. I also think that Dion presents the only reasonable and realistic chance to get Herr Harper out of office, which really should be the good for all posters here.

They are certainly more productive but the real advantage the US automakers have in Canada is our Medicare system. Right now GM spends more on health benefits for present and retired workers than it does on steel. Buzz Hargrove and his union are real leaders in how they broke free from American masters and negioated a deal that worked for Canadians union members. See their dues going to America like most of the other unions in Canada? Nope.

Funny how so many posters here like to rail about "American Imperalism" yet are happy to support American unions exporting Canadian dues to the USA.

Funny that.

Oh yeah!

Name some posters who've done that working man.

In all the time I've spent reading comments on these threads I've never once seen a single union supporter, or anyone else for that matter, make a statement that could be interpreted along the lines you've just described.

Your hatred of unions and the NDP is making you paranoid and delusional as well.

Funny that!!

Hey G, just what part of Working Man is actually working, we both know one part that obviously doesn't.

I salute aalborg for that East-West lecture. Welcome words.

I've written (in my mind) 1,000 speeches about my British Columbia compatriots who disgrace themselves when they start whining about Ontario ... or Quebec; or when Calgary goes racist about Edmonton ... or when Toronto is Hogtown or Cabbagetown ... and the Newfie jokes invite me to sneer at the very people who call me "M'darlin'" when I go there ...

Y'know what I tell my BC brethren? I yell (as calmly as possible): "You might as well ask me to hate Canada and that just ain't gonna happen!" which you must admit, really sets the tone for a further learned discourse.

So thank you, aalborg ... I really loved hearing what you said.

You're welcome BC Mary. As a former Calgarian, I could tell you some good Edmonton jokes though!! Just kidding!

The media doesn't help with their constant reminders about where a candidate is from. I'm convinced they do so on purpose. It keeps the public from focusing on the real issues. I live on an island. There are two towns here. Many people will say they are from one or the other. Me....I say the name of the Island, not the town on that island. This divide starts small and grows and that's when a harpo type can break it apart without any effort.

You are grasping at straws, yet you keep voting the idiots back in?

I realize that anyone moving to here from Denmark likely does so because he/she did not like to pay the taxes needed to provide a good society!

So you made your choice, now live with the consequences!

This is a capitalist society! only money matters, many politicians are puppets of the powerful international groups.

If you REALLY want change, then hold your nose and vote NDP!

You can be sure nobody has tried to corrupt them!

alive
Aren't you making rather a lot of unsupported assumptions. I read aalborg's piece completely differently.

I'll bet a lot of the rightwingers on this board would say that there's plenty of evidence of NDP corruption in this province - cast your mind back to the incident(s) that led to the resignation of Mike Harcourt as premier and I think you'll agree with me. Remember Dave Stupich and bingo gate?

Alive
You aren't making any sense. It's quite possible I didn't explain myself clearly. Holding my nose and voting NDP won't change anything in this country. It will be the same old, same old. I've been considering changing my affiliation but I know instinctively there isn't a party out there who gives a damn about me, you or any other citizen. Jack will sell you out just as fast as the other guys. Sadly, it comes down to choosing who you think is the least evil. For me it's the liberals. For you the NDP. We will just have to agree to disagree.

Funny thing is, I don't mind paying taxes. If the money is put into social programs and helping those less fortunate in this country then I don't resent one cent. I came here as a child so have not paid taxes in Denmark. But comparing my Danish brother's standard of living to that of most Canadians, I know I wouldn't resent taxes in that country either. Wasn't it Denmark that was recently voted as having the happiest people of any country in the world? Imagine that. High taxes and happy people. How can those two concepts go hand in hand? I should have missed the boat.

Well put aalborg. Of course the conventional wisdom doesn't like the concept that high taxes and a decent way of life for all of a country's population might actually be the best way for everyone to have a sense of satisfaction and happiness in their lives.

Greed and envy are, after all, so easy to engender and promote. When a political party comes along that actually begins to speak with everyone
as equals and doesn't limit their advisors to the privileged few who can 'afford' the $1,000/plate rubber chicken then I'll really start paying attention.

The sad fact is that Denmark, Norway and Sweden are also much more ecologically friendly and internationally responsible nations than Canada is as well. Canadians are the only ones who still believe the bumpf our governments, media and corporations pump out about what a 'world-class' nation we are. And many of them are gradually waking up.

They have a right wing in Denmark too, I suppose, but in the long run the people seem to manage to put them in their place most of the time.

Cheers.

"World class". Makes me laugh everytime I hear that trite little phrase. I don't believe enough are getting the joke though. The deluded, the dumb and dumber, lap it up without any understanding of the reality. It's the same mentality as the US where they truly believe that they are the best and 5 billion people want to live there and be just like them. North America is going to be the new third world and to complete the picture there will be one dictator running the show. The neo-cons both north and south of the border will duke it out and one will end up the winner. There is no one to save us because the general population is focused on making money and buying stuff. I just read Americans are working longer and harder than ever before just to keep their heads above water. Maxed out financially and no end in sight and no hope. I believe it is the same for Canadians. We are a ship of fools with a captain who knows sweet f... all about navigation. The captain hopefuls in all the other parties are just as foolish. If I didn't have children and grandchildren I'd sit back and watch the decline of NA with great amusement and just say, I told you so. I can't do that though. The reality is I don't know what to do.

Hmmm, there was plenty of corruption in the Glen Clark government and plenty of the same in the BC NDP party. Remember bingogate and Nanimo Commenwealth?

No, you don't, do you?

The Federal NDP will never form a government so it can say what it wants.

Do you actually read these comments working man, or do you take a perverse pleasure in being redundant?

Take a quick look up the thread next time and save yourself the trouble.

Like how?
By saying that citizens of Denmark enjoy a better lifestyle than us? (because they are prepared to pay the taxes needed?)
It seem you and other posters actually agree on that point!

Is it because I suggest that the party that is closest to the leading party in Denmark would be a good choice here?

Is it because i said they will not be corrupted by multinationals?

It will be a rainy day in hell before NDP will se campaign contributions from large firms, I think we can agree on that too?

So your problem is that the NDP had scandals internally?
yes there was corruption with bingogate and possible other instances, but kindly note they were not corrupted to make new laws that make life worse for anyone!

What we saw was typical mismanagement by a few people, trying to bring money into the organization, by fradulent means.
Yep NO excuse, shit happens!

David Lewis coined the phrase "corporate welfare bums" remember?
Today that is more the case than ever before, and that is what we should worry about.

About Clark: misguided, trying to create work and apprenticeships before anyone realized we need apprentices!
Sabotaged by big business from day one, and hindered in every which way!

We look up to strong leaders unless the media tells us not to do so.
Clark tried his best to emulate WC Bennet! thinking big and having opinions!

Clark was the only politician to really oppose the USA, when he wanted to kick them out of Nanoose Bay!
Even then the Feds were wimps!

So I repeat myself: hold your nose and vote NDP!
I do, even if I often disagree with them, they are still the only party that at least has a platform I can agree with.
It is up to me and you, to make them stick to that platform if elected!

Alive,
Don't take this the wrong way, I don't mean you to feel I'm criticizing your ideas or your sincerity.

However, as a friend of mine said the other day, I think the left should be big-tent and welcoming - as all-inclusive as possible. I don't think the left should reject potential supporters by telling anyone to 'hold their nose'. I suspect a lot of people are looking desperately for alternatives these days and the left has to work hard at being a viable one for as many diverse people as possible. Not just for their votes, but because we genuinely believe in the fairness, justice and equity of the programs and reforms the left espouses.

My suggestion would be to make the good points you have without the invective and leave the voting decisions to the people you're talking to - as well as to all those in the wings who may be reading you and who’ll never say a word.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't slap down the neocons when they pop up here from time to time - those characters are never going to change their minds and they've come here looking for a fight anyway. Why disappoint them?

People like aalborg have the same problems we do and we need to reach out to them, not turn them off.

Just a suggestion. Meant in a very friendly way. I don't think we got on that well in other encounter we had and I'm sorry if that was in any way my fault.
Cheers.

It would be great if voters would go for the NDP, without holding their noses, of course!

Seems to me that most so-called Labour Parties are trying hard to be inclusive, to the point of cutting unions influence at the conventions.

Perhaps the Greens are doing better at that, by not emphasizing their economic strategy? (if they in fact have one?)

My hope is that voters like Aalborg, people who are at their wits end about what to vote for, would understand that while NDP has had its share of corruption, that corruption was never a result of big business bribing them, but rather silly attempts at fundraising.

The media makes a big story out of NDP's "failure" as a governing party, and the fast ferries wound up a bad investment.
What nobody mentions is that there was absolutely no co-operation from the business community at that point!

Watching the CBC feature on Tommy Douglas, one saw how his every attempt also was fought tooth and nail, by that same community.

Perhaps what we should realize that our "enemy" is the business community that puts profit ahead of sensible progress!

My experiences in business, is that everything is dictated by "the bottom line"! If the product happens to be good, is merely a coincidence!

alive
Don't disagree with you at all. Let's be as big tent as possible though. One thing about voting for a new party for the first time (new for the voter I mean) is that the first time is always the hardest.

I've been pretty disappointed at things the NDP has done or has failed to do in the past - speaking from the BC perspective - but I think, on balance, their 13 years in power here in BC were far more positive (in the long run) than any 50 years with any, or all, of the other parties in power.

I do wish they would be more vocal in opposition to the current Campbell crowd and his business cronies though.

Anyway, I suspect aalborg is like a lot of people who are currently pretty frustrated with the current state of affairs.

In a province as rich as BC the fact that a city the size of Victoria has more than 700 chronic homeless people is not just a shame - it is a crime.

I just heard that another SRO hotel in Vancouver will be disgorging its residents onto the streets in 3 months time. More criminality.

I understand that Vancouver now pays their homeless people busfare to go to Victoria!
Anything to make that 2010 thing look antiseptic!

Sad part is alive, you're probably right. Those figures from Victoria are a year or two old...and they were gathered in the month of January. A local group that helps with street problems is planning a new count in January of 2007 - God knows how many there'll be be then.

Alive...no time to post as I'm going away, but just wanted to say that we really are on the same page! Getting rid of harper is the goal. As flawed as the other parties are, whether libs or ndp, either one would be a vast improvement. If it wasn't clear to the average citizen before todays fiasco with Rona the Robot, then I don't know what will wake people up.

Imagine that we agree

Yes, the "clean-air policy" should make it obvious that they are only paying lip-service to us.