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9/11's Power to Change
After the attack came the question: will this make us better, or worse?
Seeing, and seizing, opportunity.
Author's note: Thirteen days after the 9/11 attacks I published this essay in the Vancouver Sun titled "Wars Within: How the terror attack is pulling apart North American culture." I joined with many others in trying to imagine how the catastrophe might play out in America and Canada. I wondered if the terrible wake-up call might prompt us to become more sober societies, more covetous of our civil liberties and more determined to wean ourselves from oil dependence. But I was betting on a darker scenario, and it's interesting now, five years later, to see where I guessed right and wrong. I invite you to read this essay and post your comments about what opportunities have been seized or missed in this new era of endless "war on terror." And how 9/11 and its aftermath have skewed U.S. and Canadian cultures, albeit in different ways.
[First published September 24, 2001]
"Everything has changed," everyone agrees. But how? North Americans find themselves faced with radically differing visions of what this new war footing will mean to their way of life. Sift the media babble and you find no consensus. On the contrary, a war within our own culture appears to be brewing, tearing along fault lines already there before September 11. Among the diametrically opposed paths that now lay before us, are these.
The New Civility vs. The New Jingoism
A tragedy of this magnitude brings with it a new sobriety and chases away the simplistic stuff that used to pass for entertainment. So say experts on the matter, such as Graydon Carter, editor in chief of Vanity Fair and former editor of Spy. "There's going to be a seismic change. I think it's the end of the age of irony," Carter told Inside.com earlier this week, adding, "Things that were considered fringe and frivolous are going to disappear." This came as Hollywood held up the release of suddenly distasteful disaster flicks, video game makers reprogrammed their more gratuitous virtual mayhem, shock jocks censored themselves and Clear Channel Communications, owner of more than 1,000 U.S. radio stations, advised program directors to avoid 162 songs deemed hurtful, including Jerry Lee Lewis's "Great Balls of Fire" and Judas Priest's "Some heads are gonna roll."
In Time magazine, essayist Roger Rosenblatt lashed out against "the vain stupidity" of smart-alecky "ironists," declaring them suddenly obsolete in this "new and chastened time." Wrote Chris Colin of Salon.com: "People talk about the New Civility like they once did about the Internet...The astonishing reports of generosity and kindness drifting out of the rescue efforts have led some to believe a fundamental reinvention of society is around the corner."
Posed against this prediction of a more grown up and nuanced public discourse is the steady barrage of hair-raising jingoism coming from sources high and low. But a few samples:
"There is only one way to begin to deal with people like this, and that is you have to kill some of them even if they are not immediately directly involved in this thing." (Former U.S. Secretary of State Lawrence Eagleburger on CNN.)
"The response to this unimaginable 21st-century Pearl Harbor should be as simple as it is swift -- kill the bastards. A gunshot between the eyes, blow them to smithereens, poison them if you have to. As for cities or countries that host these worms, bomb them into basketball courts." (New York Post columnist Steve Dunleavy.)
"At a bare minimum, tactical nuclear capabilities should be used against the bin Laden camps in the desert of Afghanistan. To do less would be rightly seen by the poisoned minds that orchestrated these attacks as cowardice on the part of the United States and the current administration." (Former Defense Intelligence Agency officer Thomas Woodrow in the Washington Times.)
"Time to take names and nuke Afghanistan." (Caption to cartoon by Gary Brookins, Richmond Times-Dispatch.)
"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity." (Syndicated columnist Ann Coulter, New York Daily News.)
Perhaps it is possible for a kind of heightened niceness to exist here while, as in any war, our designated enemy is demonized and made ever more The Other. There were, for example, those Jimmy Stewart movies during World War II. Except you wouldn't have wanted to be Japanese-American or Japanese-Canadian then. And already in recent days, people of Arab descent dwelling in North America -- even those mistakenly taken for Arabs -- have suffered harassment, assaults and even murder at the hands of inflamed racists. When President Bush appeared on television to urge tolerance towards America's own Muslim citizens he struck a blow on behalf of The New Civility -- even as his "new kind of war" is propelled by The New Jingoism.
My prediction: intelligent irony, needed now more than ever, is a natural defence mechanism against the frantic distractions of celebrity and advertising, and a useful foil against official propaganda. But if terrorist attacks continue, expect the New Jingoism to settle in comfortably in the mainstream media. Think Desert Storm without end.
Beacon of freedom vs. snitch state
Almost as soon as the World Trade Towers collapsed, civil libertarians publicly fretted this would unleash Big Brother upon the American citizenry. If so, it would mean a victory for the Islamic extremists, argued these advocates for free speech and an open society. Indeed, just seven days before the attack, former U.S. senator Gary Hart was in Montreal warning of the terrorist risks -- and ruing the probable backlash of counter-terrorism measures. "We will be spied on, our privacy will be gone; that will have a huge impact on our society."
After the attack, however, an even louder cry could hear from those wanting a fattened, unfettered CIA, advocates for "a golden age of intelligence," as noted global affairs writer Robert Kaplan put it. "The greatest spies are just being born now," opined the author of The Coming Anarchy. "Future wars are going to be based on the size and quality of intelligence services. Because in a world of complex, variegated cultures, understanding intent is more important than satellite photos. We need people who can melt into societies."
Meanwhile, the need to track enemies who've melted into our own society will open the way for more manufacture and use of surveillance and identification technology. The National Security Administration already snoops the net with a system called Trailblazer, and the FBI with one called Carnivore. A bill being hurried before Congress would approve "roving wiretaps" and make it easier for the law enforcement to use information gathered through use of torture.
BusinessWeek heralds a boom in bomb-sniffing and face-recognition equipment, as well as gadgets that capture and save the keystrokes of any unwitting computer user. Here in Vancouver, where a would-be terrorist was nabbed at the border on millennium's eve, and where police cameras downtown fail to cause a stir, such measures are unlikely to meet with revolt. Most of it happens, after all, out of the view and therefore the consciousness of the average person. If the occasional miscreant is caught and fired or jailed, what does it have to do with those of us with nothing to hide, right? (Never mind that security states are built upon just such complacent thinking.)
There is one logical extension of this security push, however, that will directly change the way we view and coexist with even our next-door neighbours. That would be the making of a snitch society. "These weren't people coming over the border just to attack quickly," a federal investigator said of the suicidal terrorists. "They cultivated friends and blended into American society to further their ability to strike." Seen that way, who wants to leave it to the experts to do the spying? Certainly not the experts, who will likely try and enlist us all in the business of rooting out the bad guys.
And many of us will likely comply. Don't we all wish those flight instructors had turned in their students? Students who, after all, had Middle Eastern names and an odd interest in aiming large jets, but not landing or taking off. It seems so obvious in hindsight: why didn't those instructors call the FBI? They didn't because the North American instinct has been to assume the best of any person, certainly any paying customer. That instinct is now all but extinguished. Latest evidence: the Northwest Airlines passengers who on Friday demanded the removal of Arab-American fellow passengers, and were granted their wish.
My bet: if terrorist attacks continue, civil liberties will quickly erode, racial profiling of Arabs by law enforcement will become accepted and a basic optimism about our fellow citizens will be forever lost.
Imperial power vs. Eco-isolationists
This little history lesson was proffered last week by U.S. military scholar Michael Klare in a column for Pacific News Service:
"The United States has, of course, been involved in conflict in the Persian Gulf for a very long time. Ever since the British pulled out of the area in 1972, U.S. forces have been on call to protect friendly governments -- especially Saudi Arabia and the conservative Gulf sheikdoms -- and to resist any threat to the free flow of oil. This was the genesis of the "Carter Doctrine" of 1980, and formed the backdrop for Operation Desert Storm in 1991.
"Since Desert Storm, the United States has amassed sufficient military power in the Gulf area to deter its two leading antagonists, Iran and Iraq, from conducting a direct assault on Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. Some 20,000 to 25,000 U.S. military personnel are in the area at all times, and large quantities and arms and equipment have been "pre-positioned" in the area to permit a rapid expansion of U.S. strength...The anti-American extremists of the Persian Gulf area know they cannot expel the U.S. presence from their midst through conventional military means, so they rely on terrorism."
Thus, George W. Bush's new war on terrorism is also the latest round in an ongoing fight against those who want to end U.S. control of the Persian Gulf, who would cut off Western civilization from its lifeblood of oil. So far, no official voice has had the temerity to suggest that America should perhaps rethink its dependence on oil in order to disentangle itself from the whole mess. Rather, the map of allies is being redrawn along realpolitik lines reminiscent of Cold War logic: if you are against Muslim extremists, you're for us. And military budgets are expected to surge in order to maintain U.S. imperial power.
That, say some, is what a flabby American culture needed to find some spine not just abroad, but at home. "I'm very optimistic," declared the usually dour Kaplan. "For so many decades, we had nothing to struggle for. We became decadent and overly legalistic. But once threatened, that changed...Every few decades we are faced with almost comic-book evil. You are going to see: a lot will change."
Looked at from another perspective, however, the terrorist attack has issued a quite different wake-up call. Now is the time to reorder our values, curb our consumption and lessen our dependence on fossil fuels -- so say ecologists including Michael M'Gonigle, chair of environmental law at the University of Victoria, who made the case in The Globe and Mail last week. Now is the time to calm our ceaseless mobility, to put down roots and work on creating more sustainable communities -- so suggested novelist Douglas Coupland in Saturday's National Post. Now we see clearly the price of brute force, failed policies and cynical alliances made in the Persian Gulf region -- so argue one voice after another on self-styled progressive commentary sites like Alternet.org and Rabble.ca.
My guess: war does not make peace-loving environmentalists of its enlistees. Barring some sort of Waterloo for Bush and his military, America's imagination is likely to become more imperial and less politically correct in the months to come. Tragically, empires under duress tend to "stay the course" (to quote Ronald Reagan). They don't pragmatically reassess the values that took them to the edge of the cliff.
Lest this all seem too much an abstraction for Canadians, it is good to remember that this nation, too, enjoys all the benefits of oil-lubricated global capitalism ensured by America's role in the Middle East. And bear in mind the headline that topped this newspaper's Thursday edition: "Terrorism 'coming to Canada.'"
Canadians are foolish to imagine themselves aloof from the impulses now warring within American culture.
David Beers is founding editor of The Tyee.
Did 9/11 make us better or worse? What opportunities have been seized or missed in its aftermath? Please post your comment below.
(You can register to comment here.) ![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
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1984
5 years ago
Comments on "9/11's Power to Change"
As a secondary English teacher, I have reasons why I still teach 1984. Although I have been pressured by admin to change the novel study for English 12 (It's too old!!!), the past five years have proven why it's still extremely relevent. As a result, many of my English 12 students have come to realize that the world of Oceania is coming closer and closer: the culture of Fear and its advocacy and abuse by government leaders grows every day. Thank heavens, those who know this novel know that we have to fight to keep our freedoms.
Alcibiades
5 years ago
In truth, although the verdict is clearly still out on the question stated by David Beers above; the events of September 11, 2001 clearly provided the catalyst for the current US administration to begin a long-standing project it had wanted to undertake before that date. A project it had been planning and scheming to implement since at least the Reagan years.
The idea that democracy could be brought to the Middle East with the arrival of US troops and armor has been severely battered, if not destroyed altogether. If the Bush Administration and the GOP cannot get American voters to sustain their sullied utopian vision in November there is a chance that some real progress could be made, especially given the recent 'almost-positive' indications that the Olmert and Abbas may actually begin constructive talks.
In the end, the key to much of this lies with Israel and that country's willingness to reach out for something other than another gun.
The brain
5 years ago
I like it. The reactionary U.S. news media, the open ended message to Canadians that this one is going to drag on and the "Terrorism comin' to Canada" quote...
There were three towers that went down on 911. Only two towers were hit by planes. The third building when down by? Unknown factors...
Since 911, an investigation started just... 442 days later. The Republican whitehouse spent... 3 million. In contrast, this same whitehouse party without holding power, spent 30 million on Clintons BJ.
Canadians lost 24 of their own on 911. We have since lost 32 Canadian soldiers in the "war on terror".
We are now losing soldiers in OFFENSIVE missions in the "war on terror".
http://www.wanttoknow.info/911timeline2pg
A read through the timeline of 911 is interesting, especially Bush's reaction to any investigations. Whats missing, of course, is the earlier timelines of U.S. foreign policy in the middle east for the last 40 years prior.
And this, with Clintons missile attack in Afganistan, or George senior's earlier war in Iraq, their involvement with Saudi Arabia and Israel for decades as allies, and finally, recently, Harpers 20 billion in military spending to go with 32 dead Canadian soldiers, combined with Bush and Cheney's war profiteering, gives flavor to a 5 year old essay that is all to prophetic and at the same time, stating the obvious and the causal effects of the same obvious conclusions.
David Beers is a good guesser. ;-)
murdock
5 years ago
Those with the 'plan' (PNAC), have made the most of the incident of 9/11.
They started taking thier 'opportunity' with a strike at themselves, the amazing 'Pentalawn' that somehow absorbed a complete aircraft!?! A strike that made the events of 9/11 seem larger...
Further the comments of the WTC 'owner' about pulling WTC7, which was not directly hit by an aircraft, nor was it on fire in any way, makes the entire 9/11 actions seem more 'contrived' every time I read or hear about them.
Makes the FDR administration's potential awareness of Pearl Harbour seem more plausible and of potential inspiration to the perpetrators of the events of 9/11.
Oppotunity was created and the mass fear that it brought was used - possibly to its maximum potential.
From that fear has come DHS, yet another 3-letter neuveau-barbarian organization, and the collective taming of the FBI, CIA and NSA under one master. That master is now an ex-military officer and one time assistant director of the CIA. A specialist in being a 'secret policeman'.
Other legislation in many english-speaking countries friendly to the Bush administration have been led down the path to civil-liberty ruin, following the 'Patriot Act' example.
The "truthiness" of all of this is yet to be seen I fear, as the only question that remains is will the US populace come out from under their beds, look at their 'leaders' and bring them to heel?
Clueless George, the Commander in Chimp, and his organ-grinder, the MAN (Dick Cheney) must be made to pay for their last 6 years of errors.
http://cluelessgeorgegoestowar.com/html/clueless_page1.html
Alcibiades
5 years ago
You must be joking, murdock. What possible connecting is there between the two 'alleged' conspiracies?
Jack's
5 years ago
I am one of those who accepts 9/11 as a plot by the Bush administration. There is a documentary video in internet circulation which suggests that the American government administration knew in advance about the plane hijacks and let them happen. It also convincingly suggests that the New York Trade Center buildings were levelled as a result of internal explosive demolition, similar to the way a building demolition company would level one.
It's also interesting that in order for experts in this field to set up a building for demolition, it would take at least 2 weeks of planning the placing of explosives.
I am astonished that the national media (with the possible exception of the CBC) did not pick up on this.
Well, maybe it's not so astonishing when considering who controls and owns the most of the national media.
George W. would not be the first to set up an incident which would rally his countrymen for a call to arms.
Grumpy
5 years ago
What I find appalling is that, on a per capita basis, Canada lost more Canadian citizens with Air India, than the Americans did with 9-11.
As the Japnese showed (and a few Allied pilots as well) that a suicide or Kamakasi bomber could have devastating consequenses. Why spend 100's of billions on guidense systems for missles, when a man can do the same job. 9-11 made even the poorest countries powerful as there is no defence against them.
9-11 shows us that we do not live in a democratic society, but a benevolent dictatorship, where the eyes and ears of the government are everywhere. George Orwell was out by 20 years!
9-11 shows us how corrupt the US media is, how easily they can be bought off.
9-11 has shown how Xenophobic the US is, they treat Canadians like dirst. Their ecconomic terrorism against our forestry industry is only the tip of the iceberg.
Who won 9-11?
- Geroge Bush
- The Federal Bureauracy
- The US military establishment
- Bin Ladin
Who lost?
- The American public.
- Freedom
- Truth
- Democracy
The effects of 9-11 will be felt for generations and the real story will never be told.
Grumpy
5 years ago
Jack, I agree with you, as I believe that Bush knew that an attack was coming, only I think he thought the passenger jets would be crashed into the sea! Remeber that Egypt airplane that was crashed into the Atlantic; was that a precursor to 9-11?
I broached this subject with a ranking military man I know and he agreed! Like me, he could not believe the establishment could have been ignorant of the attack.
Look who has won with 9-11 (see my previous blog), what is a few thousand deaths in the great scheme of things, far less people died in 9-11 than in Bosnia/Serbia conflict, genocide in Africa, Darfur.
What about the great tidal wave in Asia in 2004, who cares now? Far more people died, yet there is not the hype and hoopla.
9-11, may have been a plan by the Whitehouse to assume all power. Like Pearl Harbour, where the Japanese sank many elderly battleships, but the all important targets, the aircraft carriers, were nowhere to be seen, enabled FDR to declare war on Germany, who were not involved!
Was 9-11 a political gambit that results were not was to be expected!
Truman Green
5 years ago
Have you gone through all the "Operation Northwoods" sites, Grumpy? It's about an alleged 1962 conspiracy by some rogue memebers of the US military to cast Cuba as an immediate and grave danger to the US in order to get support for an invasion.
The plan called for, among many other things, hijacking of planes and the killing of US citizens and blaming it on Cuban operatives.
Wikipedia's a fairly decent site on Northwoods, but I recommend going through as many sites as possible to get an overview.
It may or may not be true but one might make the case that 911's basically a version of Northwoods, that was really acted upon--unlike Northwoods.
Something to think about.
murdock
5 years ago
Alcibiades, still not reading well:
Quote:
Makes the FDR administration's potential awareness of Pearl Harbour seem more plausible and of potential inspiration to the perpetrators of the events of 9/11.
as a source of inspiration, such as Northwoods, that Truman Green has also pointed out.
no joke in either case.
try reading more closely before hitting the 'Post Comment' button Alcibiades.
Alcibiades
5 years ago
Baloney, murdock. There is not a shred of hard evidence for FDR's complicity in 'permitting' Pearl Harbour as a way of creating the conditions for the US to enter the war. Since there was no conspiracy in 1941, what possible connection could there be to an alleged conspiracy in 2001?
I've read all of that stuff (Northwoods) and it's singularly unconvincing. There are also members of the US Military who believe in and practice 'remote viewing' - If there were anything to any of these hoary theories do you think the US would have made as many mistakes as it has in Iraq?
The ‘truth’ is they (the US brain trust) are no where nearly as smart as they think they are...and if they're controlling things to the extent you and others seem to think they are then things wouldn't be turning pear-shaped on them so frequently and comprehensively.
There was no conspiracy in 1941 and none in 2001 - just a bunch of idle and fevered speculation. I read what you wrote and I disagreed – pretty simple stuff in my estimation.
Jack's
5 years ago
Grumpy wrote..
It still sticks in my mind how the Trade Center buildings collapsed a short time after the jet impact. I have watched contolled demolitions of buildings by experts and they were identical. Plus the experts say that it takes a minimum of 2 weeks to plan and place the explosives for a controlled demolition especially for buildings that size.
Someone in the Bush administration knew the target(s) and controlled the situation.
gaulois
5 years ago
And what if 9/11 soon become commonly recognized as an inside job?
Do we all have to run for cover???
http://www.infowars.com/terrorstorm/google_high_quality.htm from Alex Jones
Quite disturbing to see something that also challenges the London bombings as being more of the same with a fair amount of substance.
Why were war games planned on both of these days is very disturbing indeed along with so many other coincidences. What are we to believe? The impact of 9/11 being recognized as a fraud seems absolutely enormous. Looks to me like the truth will be coming out. But do we really want to know??? CBC did not. Do we?
Grumpy
5 years ago
Jack, PBS just had an excellent story 'Why the Trade Centre fell'. It seems instead of the original theory that the horizontal girders failed, with the massive heat of the jet fueled fire, the girders expanded, up to 5 feet and snapped the outside vertical girders. Then the floors pancaked down and down and down. Gravity controlled the failure of the building.
I do not believe that explosives were used, nor that Bush & Co. thought the buildings were the targets. Instead I believe they thought that foriegn airliners were to be comandeered and crashed into the sea. That's why bush did not leave the Florida school until after the second building was attacked, he was expecting reports of mass airline crashes into the sea. That's why they refused entry of forgien jetliners into American airspace, they thought a second wave was coming!
Oh yes, pearl Harbour was not a one off, the Brits did it first to the Italian fleet at Toranto one year earlier! Again, the Japanese Navy wanted to destroy the aircraft carriers and they were not there, just the elderly battleship fleet. it was aircraft carriers that won the war in the Pacific!
Just me
5 years ago
In 2001 David Beers wrote with prescience about the likely course of the George W. Bush government. Beers noted "How the terror attack is pulling apart North American culture." He wrote too soon to note what many pundits are recalling wistfully on 9/11's fifth anniversary, i.e.: that in the first instance America, and some unlikely people around the world, united in sympathy for the WTC victims' families, and for America as a whole. This was no "pulling apart," this was a pulling together.
This moment of unusual solidarity was as real as it was short-lived, even though it came so soon after Bush's fraudulent election 10 months before.
Today's Tyee posters with their conspiracy theories and other rehashed Bush condemnations are answering half of Beers" question -- they seem to know what opportunities have been missed. Perhaps it is time to look at the unanswered half of Beers' question: what opportunities have been seized?
I'll name just one, and it is both trivial and important: I now can go to almost any cineplex most times of the year and see a first-run documentary movie by Michael Moore, Erroll Morris, Eugene Jarecki, Nettie Wilde, even Al Gore because, American Idol notwithstanding, the culture finally is growing up. A political movie can win an Oscar, which is no measure of its worth but is a measure of its cultural impact. (My only 2007 Oscar perdiction: "... and the winner is ... Al Gore!") A similar observation could be made about the slow implosion of the sclerotic daily press and TV news, the proliferation of Tyee-like sites on the old-school Internet, the vibrancy of the blogosphere.
The nasty turns engineered by Bush and Co. post 9/11 remind me of the stages of grief identified by Elizabeth Kubler-Ross: denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance -- the meaning of the last being: embracing a new cycle of life. After its initial solidarity American society has been "pulling apart," as Beers claimed five years ago. A diminishing group wants to halt its grieving at the anger stage, a typical immature response to crisis. But a growing group -- as Bush's poll numbers show -- is reasserting the decency, drive and imagination that are hallmarks of the American people, if not their governments. These people are pulling together. They'll identify the opportunities. They'll seize them.
Truman Green
5 years ago
For me, it's wtc7, which fell but wasn't hit by a plane. Pretty big co-incidence, I think. I think there were fires in 7 but noone seems to know why it fell.
When Evan Solomon (cbc last night) asked 911 commission vice-chairman, Lee Hamilton if wtc7 was included in the commission report, Hamilton answered that he wasn't sure.
Now, that's gotta be one of the weirdest answers in the history of man, or woman.
And no, wtc7 wasn't in the report. How can that NOT cause suspicion?
So far, the best answer seems to be that wtc7 fell as some kind of synchronistic 2nd law of thermodynamic sympathy, known fondly as murphy's law. Kidding!
Hamilton seemed surprised that Solomon asked him that question. I guess he got the CBC confused with Fox News for a minute.
Colin
5 years ago
In the end, the key to much of this lies with Israel and that country's willingness to reach out for something other than another gun.
Yes the Middle East countries hate it when their victim fights back, why can’t the Jews just lie down quietly to die like their internal population do? The Arab countries and Iran love using the term Holy war in reference to dealing with Israel. Why are they surprised when Israel believes what they say and acts accordingly?
Jordan and Egypt took enough of a bloody nose to discover that peace is preferable. Lebanon needs to grow up and take responsibility for it’s own country and punt Hezbollah. Syria needs to move out of Neverland and smell the coffee. Iran used to have good ties with Israel and is only using the pretense of fighting Israel in order to undercut the Arab street from under their long term Sunni adversaries and is more interested in setting up a Shiite Crescent, where the destruction of Israel is merely icing on the cake.
Alcibiades
5 years ago
Haven't you got your victimology a little back asswards Colin? Who made Lebanon into the mess it is today and provided the impetus for the creation of Hezbollah in the first place?
Most sane Israelis and most sane Palestinians know exactly what's going on and they also know that somehow or other these people are going to have to learn to live together eventually. Western interference started this mess in 1947/48 and it's not going to be straightened out until the West backs off and lets the locals settle it. Israel needs nobody propping it up - despite the fact my inbox is constantly filling up with pleas for more money to support Israeli causes.
They've certainly got a nominally sane individual like you convinced there is only one side to this story.
Jack's
5 years ago
Maybe I've missed understanding the whole thing... but all three buildings collapsed the same way which resembled a controlled internal demolition - including building 7 to which no damage was externally sustained.
Jay Currie
5 years ago
Yipee! Moonbats 12 o'clock high.
It must have been Bush's fault. Everything else is. Here's how it happened.
September 10th Karl Rove and Scooter Libby ran around the WTC planting cutting charges while telling all the Jews not to show up for work the next day and then the Chimp - who we all know is a complete moron - dawned his Halliburton brainac suit and pushed the super, dooper, whooper red button Dick had in an undisclosed location.
"Take that you ragheads." yelled the ever racist ChimpyMcHitler as he raced to his appointment with destiny and a Florida grade 2 class while Dick began the planning for the hostile takeover of Afghanistan and Iraq.
Yup, that's what happened and there ain't not one speck of proof otherwise. And if there is it was all faked by the idiots in the Whitehouse while they used Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson in a sweet little bit of misdirection that they were too stupid to actually pull off so none of the big guys were arrested like they were supposed to be.
Oh, and if you put a cinder block on chicken wire and heat it to 1000 degrees it doesn't collapse which just proves it.
The brain
5 years ago
I'm with Truman on this one as well with WTC7. No one knows why this building fell, and yet, the whitehouse only spent 3 million to intitially find out... and they didn't even look. That tells you right there, thats its a smear of the truth, in my opinion.
Planes took the other two towers down, but what took down the third? There's only one answer to it... Bush and CIA, with ties to the Ladin family, and Bin Ladin, a former CIA agent (and maybe not so former), and then you ask the who benefit's question and whalla!! There hasn't been a war time president that hasn't been re-elected. My oh my, do americans all love to get around their leader in war time... so why not create one?
And why not make a lot of money on the side... Bush and Carlyle, Cheney and Haliburton... in 2002, Haliburton was 9 dollars a share. Last I looked, it was in the 90's. Take down Saddam, drive up the price of oil, who says war doesn't pay?
And the false reports of Iraq's supposed WMD's...
And what has Bush and Co. tried at home?
Turning pension funds into stock portfolio's.
Legally spying on its citizens. Yah, lets legalize watergate!!!
Their education and fitness standards are dropping like stones since Bush came into power. The slush funds, corporate bribes and lobby interests have taken over. The inmates are running the asylum.
murdock
5 years ago
Alcibiades, still missing one vital point posted:
Inaction, is still a voluntary act.
It has long been held that members of the Senate Naval Commitee in the 'proto War offices' (as the real 'war' had not been declared) were looking for a proper causus belli, and the sinking of just one or two destroyers in the Atlantic was not enough to mobilize the masses, nor to convince the rest of the House and Senate to endorse a formal declaration of war.
The Oil embargo aimed at Japan was done as an act along the 'road to war' without firing, as Stimpson put it. It was known to FDR's offices that the Japanese were planning a major action somewhere in the Pacific, what was not known was the target.
This time round, the Islamofacists had made their target very, very clear. The twin towers had been targeted at least two times before. Evidence of intel from Morocco shows that humint was available saying that Al-Queida was getting ready for a major action in the US again, this was in March of 2001.
Bingo. They had their patsy, they had an idea of the target, what was likely not clear was timing.
This would be the causus-belli needed to once again mobilize the masses and create the needed climate of fear...
Like many others, I see WTC7 as the smoking gun.
Moreover all the evidence of what hit the Pentagon is all confiscated, save for one distant fuzzy camera angle. The object captured on that camera looked more like a cruise missile than a 757.
IAMC
5 years ago
20% of Canadians think 911 was a conspiracy, 20% of Canadians say the same thing about JFK. You are always get 20% moon bats.
And they are all here.
Watch the second part of the ABC miniseries tonight. It starts in 7 minutes.
Truman Green
5 years ago
IAMC, maybe get out the Tonkin Resolution and take another look at those phony attacks on innocent American warships that never actually happened but launched the Vietnam War and killed 58,000 thousand American troops (crippled hundreds of thousands) and 3 or so million Vietnamese and indirectly lead to Pol Pot murdering 3.5 million Cambodians, by giving him another big lie that the Americans were going to completely destroy Cambodia via B52s.
When you're finished that remember the Maine, which was blown up in Havana harbour and launched the Spanish American War, whereby America ended up with the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Cuba and Guam. Then read McKinley's big speech and see how similar it was to Bush's and Lyndon Johnson.
The outrage is identical, and all of it faked.
IAMC
5 years ago
Even if it's faked Truman it's still the best hope we got. I know what side I'm on, whatever it takes.
We aren't in the sixties anymore. Jethro Tull is no longer popular. Al Gore lost, and that's a good thing.
Avicenna
5 years ago
I was willing to believe that the Bush administration knew of possible terror attacks (even the Guardian had reported that Bin Laden had been treated in an American hospital in Europe in April 2001 and supposedly had been in contact with the Americans) - and that their compliance came from playing ignorant (hardly a stretch for Bush) - but after sitting through the presentation by Barrie Zwicker with his impassioned work detailing the "9/11 Deception", and the volumes of information (about 20 hrs of meticulous, damning evidence) that clearly indicated that the Bush administration weren't just guilty by ommission - that they were mullied by commission of killing their own to make their required "Pearl Harbour" equivalent to justify going into Iraq.
Jack, Truman, Brain et al. - much of what you state was touched upon and then some. There is also the issue of the missing gold, the destroyed Enron and intelligence offices by the convenient controlled demolition of WT7 (which would take a minimum of 2 weeks notice to plan out and implement), the fact that the type of fuel in the airlines would not burst into flames (as they apparently did)- as the fuel would be consumed rapidly before combusting, and the CIA confisicated video footage of outdoor surveillance tapes at gas stations near the pentagon which would have born witness as to how exactly that airline zoomed into the empty wing of the pentagon under renovations. The fact that the authors of PNAC were awaiting this event to barge into Iraq while the smoke was still sizzling would raise a red flag to anyone who isn't colour blind.
Like Beers, I revisited my thoughts in 2001 http://avicenna-shirin.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!DDCFAF4E7F26A3B6!205.entry?_c11_blogpart_blogpart=blogview&_c=blogpart#trackback, and I can't say it makes anymore sense to me now then it did then.
Alcibiades
5 years ago
murdock
Double baloney. Typical ex post facto blather.
Truman Green
5 years ago
Well, Avicenna, it's not really about the availability of oil, or the coming peak oil crisis (they could just ban V-8s and SUVs, eh); its about who gets to benefit from the oil purchases and who gets to create reserve currency indebtedness and collect interest, and whose currency will be used, eh.
The global lizards who run the world are really into this kind of stuff.
The only truthful explanation ever given of the war in Iraq was by the Ned Beatty character, who lectured Peter Finch's cowed Howard Beale in 'Network."
It's all about business.
Avicenna
5 years ago
Truman, aye, I concur - my eyes are a wee bit more open 5 years down the war torn road, and I see that oil is nothing without the icing on the well padded military wallet. It is time for me to respond to myself - life is a learning process (which is why they say ignorance is bliss).
The brain
5 years ago
War profiteering... thats an ugly charge... but apt. And anyone who knew the markets would take a big drop with all three buildings destroyed especially as opposed to the twins with the third still standing, could short stocks in anticipation of the market reaction and make thick coin.
Hi, Avicenna
philwill
5 years ago
Good article, David. I didn't see it the first time, but enjoyed it today.
As I'm writing this, I'm watching PBS's piece on the spiritual aspects of 9/11, which is a fascinating counterpoint to the politics of the incident and all that has followed. Politics and religion intertwined! Radical Islamists on one side, and fundamentalist christo-zionists on the other. A George Lucas movie!
But I digress. I want to touch on some of the things that others have written here. The jury is out on whether the Bushies knew that something was coming. The August PDB certainly suggests the possibility, but the Bush-Cheney secrecy will hide reality for a long time. But as far as the conspiracy theories concerning intentional demolition go, that did not happen, IMHO.
I'm an engineer with 35 plus years of work in construction and construction materials, including fire and collapse investigations. I've seen the ASCE Investigation report (that had a respected Canadian engineer on the team). It was clear to me on 9/11 what probably had happened, and the formal investigation filled in the details. Towers 1 and 2 collapsed as the result of the aircraft collision and fire, after the collision debris had stripped the sprayed asbestos-gypsum fireproofing off the structure. Sprinkler systems were disabled. The steel didn't melt, but softened with rising temperature and time. The collapse straight down was the result of gravity's inexorable downward force on thousands of tons af structure above the collision floors.
Did it fit the neocons' plan? Is there a God? Just read the PNAC. It was Perle's perfect wet dream! The complete justification for invading Iraq, Iran etc.!
Why did the attacks happen? Despite Bush's "Islamofascism" etc., here's the real reason, though I've not seen it in the US MSM:
http//www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14898.htm
And why did the US attack Iraq? Truman has that right: "It's all about business".
RickW
5 years ago
IAMC:
Doubtless, millions of Germans also thought the same of Hitler. Better the devil ya know...........
murdock
5 years ago
Alcibiades posted:
is this the sand-box in grade 2?
Alcibiades
5 years ago
You seem to think it is. You keep making the same stale points ad nauseum.
Nana
5 years ago
Philwill,
There is no way fire alone brought down the towers, let alone WTC7. Just because a bunch of engineers with perhaps their more delicate parts caught in a vise made a "report" does not make it so. Take half an hour and watch:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3249714675910247150&pr=goog-sl
Pancaking would have taken more time than the nearly freefall speed the towers came down in. Elementary physics says it was a controlled demolition.
too many newscasters, firemen, policemen and people on the street heard large explosions beforethe buildings came down. See also:
http://www.st911.org/
http://prisonplanet.tv/articles/september2006/110906controlleddemolition.htm
Then there is the insurance motive by the lease owner and the fact that because of the asbestos in the building, demolitions costs would have been prohibitive.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/silverstein.html
Mel from Calgary
5 years ago
There is one conspiracy theory no one is talking about and I am surprised. The pictures around the pentagon do not show debris of a 757 plane? I don't think a plane hit this and I don't think anyone was killed there. It was a closed section of the pentagon and easy to destroy. Add this to the republicans penchant for lies and we have something that the media should be exploring.
Colin
5 years ago
Can you say the Ottomen Empire and those nasty Turks, not to mention the Crusaders, The Arabs (who are also guilty of Invading the area) the Romans, so on and so forth.
In fact the 1902 census put the population of the area (which I think was portions of three provinces) at around 200,000 Arabs, 80,000 Jews and number of others. Most people think this was somewhat low as most people were avoiding the Huge taxes being placed on them by the empire. By 1946, the census showed around 1.2 million Arabs and 400,000 Jews (despite the British attempts to block Jewish immigration)
The two major reason given for the increase in population are the British mandate which built the Port of Hafia and devolved about the first functional government infrastructure in a long time (leading to an noticeably decrease in infant mortality) and the presence of large farms/orchards run by Jewish settlers who hired the Arabs to work the fields. (in fact one of the largest recent employers in Gaza where the settlers who were pulled out).
Funny I was thinking the same thing about you. The solution to this is simple. The Palestinians accept that Israel is staying put and gives up the armed struggle. Egypt gives up a small portion of the Sinai to make Gaza more viable. (something Israel should have done in 1974) The Palestinians get a monetary payment in lieu of the right of return although a small portion of the population could be given Israeli citizenship and allowed back. The west pays for the rebuilding of Gaza and upgrading of the West Bank. After about 5 years, a variety of cooperative networks can be developed so the Palestinians can become more self sufficient. The education system is change to orient them into higher education so they can replicate some of Singapore’s strategies. In a generation, the Israelis will be falling over themselves to do business with the Palestinians, who can then negotiate from a position of strength. Unfortunately I thinks they will look at the battle between Hezbollah and the IDF and think they can do the same, bringing on the 3rd Infidita and total absolute ruin upon themselves.
Syria and Iran pull military support for Hezbollah and Lebanon tells them to play along or leave. Without Hezbollah Lebanon and Israel have very little fight about except water, which is a condition that all the parties share. If Syria accepts Israel and agrees to long term negotiations over the Golan heights (Which Israel would be insane to give up completely) they might be able to reach a similar accord as there is between Jordan and Israel.
Of course the Arab world will have to let go of their convenient demon that is Israel and face their own internal problems so I expect them to do little to reduce the conflict as it not in their interest to do so. Iran and Saudi have no territory or water disputes with Israel and should bugger off and look after their own dysfunctional societies.
Jack's
5 years ago
Avicenna
No doubt there's at least some speculation in the various conspiracy theories of 9/11. But it's hard to argue with what you actually see - even on television at the time it occurred.
We've all previously seen and marvelled at how a demolition company can do such an accurate job of bringing down a building.
Jay Leno - on last night's show - said that the U.S. government isn't smart enough to pull that type of an operation off. Well, I'm convinced somebody is.
Nana
5 years ago
Jack's,
It was a small cabal with the power,network and money which hired people to set up the buildings for demolition over a period of time.
Larry Silverstein, the lease holder gained monetarily by the demolition since it was covered by insurance. The buildings were considered a white elephant because the costs of demolition under environmental laws would have cost around 2-3 Billion. So Silverstein had motive to cooperate with who ever planned this. Numerous people think Netanyahu is heavily involved since he and Silverstein spoke every Sunday no matter where either of them was ....for years.
Netanyahu wrote a book called The War on Terror and How The West Can Win
in 1986.
The guys who were really running the US DoD and it's policy were all connected to PNAC and many had duel US/Israeli citizenship. Do you begin to get a tail wagging the dog picture here?
When crimes are committed one always has to ask who benefited, who had motive.
[/B]
The brain
5 years ago
http://www.wtc7.net/videos.html
philwill:
Hey, check these vid's of wtc7 going down and tell me that this isn't a controlled demolition. Go on, check it out and get back to us with your "expert" opinion.
Alcibiades
5 years ago
Colin
You get the US to contribute 1/10th of what it gives Israel annually and there might be a chance. Your analysis is far too facile.
Truman Green
5 years ago
Philwil, because you're an engineer I wonder if you'd take a look at the videos of wtc7 which The brain has linked and get back to us, and let us know what you think.
Are you impressed by the precise vertical fall?
Frank
5 years ago
Colin,
The thing is, this is their only option. Prior to this statement was what you wish would happen. And I agree, peace would be best with a spirit of cooperation coming into play. However, until Israel and the West make some real progress there's no chance. It might not be fair to say "Israel and the West" because why should Islamic countries get off scot-free, but that's life in the 21st century. The onus is on Israel and the West. Of course we won't make any move at all, just utter some platitudes so a new infitada is almost a foregone conclusion. And there is no other option if you're Palestinian.
Nana
5 years ago
The Moral Bankruptcy of Israel's Founding Idea
The Coming Collapse of Zionism
By KATHLEEN CHRISTISON
Former CIA Analyst
We have reached a moral crossroads. In the "new Middle East" defined by Israel, Bush, and the neocons, only Israel and the U.S. may dominate, only they may be strong, only they may be secure. But in the just world that lies on the other side of that crossroads, this is unacceptable. Justice can ultimately prevail.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14949.htm
philwill
5 years ago
Nana, Truman, The brain & Mel
I didn't really want to start WW III over this, and only have time for a short response tonite.
First, the Bush crowd disgust me, and I would love it if it could be shown that they did what's alleged. But I do feel an obligation to rebut some of the many misconceptions flying around. (Small pun intended).
First Mel: I saw some video on CNN in the last two days that did actually show a lot of shredded aluminum outside the building at the Pentagon (I may have a recording). If the missing aircraft didn't hit the building, where are they hiding it (and the passengers?). The face of the building didn't show the neat aircraft-shaped inprint as the WTT's, because the ensuing, fairly large jet-fuel fire left soot over the whole thing.
T b, Nana and Truman:
I've watched the videos many times, and watched much of what Nana referenced yesterday.
First, conventional "controlled demo's" weaken the building judiciously first by careful local handwork, then set carefully planned charges. Conventional practise is to blow out columns at the base, so that the building crumples at the bottom, with the tower often wobbling a little as it drops. The WTC collapse was very different, because the portions of the towers above the collision level dropped more or less intact (at least initially) down inside the lower, as yet undamaged portion.
The weakness in any building that allows progressive collapse, as at Rowan Point in London, England, or a collapse during construction in Virginia about 30 years ago is the inability of an individual floorplate to arrest the kinetic energy of the level above falling onto it.If this dialogue goes on far enough, I'll do the physics for you.
You're probably aware that the WTT's have very different construction, compared to our concrete or concrete and steel high-rises (and most others, probably including the whole list of buildings referenced by those commenting on how unusual it is for fire to bring down a highrise. I agree that it is unheard of, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.
The WTT towers have (oops, had) 90% of their vertical structure at the perimeter, in the form of very closely spaced, very heavy (at the bottom) steel columns, with aluminun or stainless steel architectural protection.
philwill
5 years ago
There was no concrete elevator/stair core, as is used here. (It is required here mainly for seismic design, and for fire protection of the exits. WTC used only multilayer "sheetrock", as the Americans like to call it, to fireproof the exit stair towers (at 4 corners), and for the massive central elevator core.
The floor system comprised steel trusses (big versions of what's under Save-On's roof), clear spanning from wall to wall, or, over a narrow strip, wall to core. Steel structures built then used sprayed-on, soft, friable asbestos-gypsum material to insulate the steel members from fire. If that material stays in place, it is very effective, as illustrated by all the successful fire performances.
However, at WTC, major portions of the interior structure were exposed to shredded aircraft, luggage, cargo etc., strained though the columns at 500 mph. This effectively sandblasted the fireproofing off critical portions of the structure, especially the trusses, exposing them to the tempearture rise in the fire that burned from collision to collapse.Sagging floors failed their perimeter connections to the columns that remained, allowing them to buckle under the weight of the structure above, causing the collapse.
I guess I should dig up a refenence to the investigation report for you. Politics aside, my profession takes the investigation of structural failures as an opportunity that must not be missed, and this was the grand-daddy of them all.
When time permits, I'll try to respond to the videos (although I expect that some other engineer out there may have beat me to it.
In the meantime, how the hell can we get rid of Bush & Co., ar at least get them to not bomb Iran!!??
That's way more important than the conspiracy theories.
P.S. I don't think the neocons are smart enough to have set up the demo process in advance, and had it work. Their wars aren't going so well just now. They're not nearly as smart as they think they are.
Truman Green
5 years ago
Philwill,The brain and I asked you to comment on WORLD TRADE CENTRE BUILDING NUMBER SEVEN, and you ignored us, saying stuff like: "...major portions of the interior structure were exposed to shredded aircraft...."
I'm beginning to think that you don't realize that 3 (three) buildings came down.
WORLD TRADE SEVEN WAS NOT HIT BY AN AIRCRAFT.
Will you comment on the video of wtc7 coming down or not?
In your first comment you say, "Towers 1 and 2 collapsed as the result of the aircraft collision and fire, after the collision debris had stripped the sprayed asbestos-gypsum fireproofing off the structure."
I repeat: What are you talking about? None of this applies to WTC NUMBER 7 which was a third building.
As you have used the same explanation in both comments after brain and I asked you to comment on the wtc7 collapse, it is difficult not to conclude that you are purposefully trying to mislead, or that you don't understand that 3 buildings collapsed, one of which was NOT HIT BY AN AIRPLANE.
Maybe just try saying, "World Trade Centre Building Number Seven," which was not hit by an airplane...therefore your explanation regarding the effects of wtc being hit by an airplane DON'T APPLY to wtc7,(seven), which was not hit by an airplane.
Why do you think wtc7 collapsed and did you see the video of it collapsing?
Jack's
5 years ago
Nana wrote...
Good point - and I have had the same suspicions...
Of course the Jewish-controlled media isn't going to make waves by opening an investigation.
G West
5 years ago
philwill,
Roll back up the archives here at Tyee. This is a re-run of material already covered ad infinitum. Conspiracy theorists are important spurs to self-examination and the critique of conventional wisdom. Not to mention 'received' knowledge from the authorities.
You're absolutely correct in your analysis - as were several posters here months ago, but that is irrelevant.
The lessons learned from the collapse of these buildings will, and are, leading to design and construction changes that will make the 'tall building' a much safer place to live and work. Take comfort in that and don't bother with the theories. It's a waste of time…but an interesting study in human relations. And I mean no offence to the many posters who believe the Bush Family cabal was behind 9/11 – I support lots of the things you post – just nor these ones.
murdock
5 years ago
Hoping that Alcibiades has finally throwing up his lunch:
Incorrect again Alcibiades; as Nana, Mel from Calgary, and The brain have all pointed out the same items over and over again. I hope you choke on the detritus coming from your guts.
Two points for Nana, Mel from Calgary, and The brain.
1) I think that AQ did actually run their operation, as claimed by Bin Laden and three aircraft were successfully hijacked. Two were successful in hitting their targets, WTC towers.
2) The results of the near vertical collapse come from the awareness of the building lesee having some foreknowledge (however obtained) of another possible terrorist attack on his property. This time instead of improving any defences, the decision was to install some explosives (as I am willing to bet that the owners of WTC figured another truck bomb was the 'plan of attack'). Then when the event happened the demolition could go ahead and all would be 'covered' by the 'act of terrorism' dodge. This event does not need anyone in the government to know about it.
3) The Pentagon attack came after all three of the other aircraft events had happened, about 25 minutes after the last and (my timing is not exact) probably an hour after the first. More than enough time for 'tricky Dicky' to decide to take action under the cover of all the rest of the explosions to make another attack against a US Defence Department facility. This way the Senate would be more inclined to support military action and the needed spending bills. Voila a cruise missile is dispatched to the 'vacant' quadrant of the Pentagon. Cheney is not beyond this sort of decision, as he must have made similar ones during the latter stages of 'Nam.
Keep on with the nausea Alcibiades, your support of the 'Party Line' from DC is most refreshing.
Nana
5 years ago
Philwill,
Sorry, you're being had. There is no way the towers could have come down at free fall speed without explosives. Nothing but explosives can account for the pulverization of everything to fine powder and the ejection of steel beams upward and outward. Nothing but explosive energy can account for the pyroclastic flow we see spreading out over both the streets and the bay.
The acceptance of the truth about controlled demolition of the towers is thekey to getting rid of Bush.
The invasions of both Afghanistan and Iraq were planned well ahead of 9/11. see:http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/preplanned.html
How terribly convenient that men who couldn't fly Cessnas managed to pull off stunts that both commercial and military pilots say were impossible to execute.
There are too many anomalies pointing to an inside job. The controlled demolition of 3 buildings is the major one. see:http://911research.wtc7.net/sept11/analysis/topanomalies.html
Nana
5 years ago
Murdock,
Bin Laden said he had nothing to do with 9/11. http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.binladen.denial/index.html
Can't get more mainstream than CNN.
Here we have another oddity....terrorist groups always claim responsibility for their actions,because they usually have demands they want met, otherwise there is no reason to perpetrate them
Colin
5 years ago
Frank
What more can Israel give up? It’s given back the Sinai, it removed the settlements from Gaza, it’s giving up portions of the West Bank. Remember the words of the leader of the Hezbollah in reference to the recent war: “We were only expecting the usual weak response from Israel to the kidnapping of it’s soldiersâ€. Any weakness shown just breeds contempt. Plus both Hezbollah and Hamas are quite open about their final solution for the State of Israel. Even if Israel pulled back to the 1967 borders, it would give them a brief “Hudana†while their enemies regrouped and consolidated.
Take a look at the Golan heights in google earth, you will see they hold a strategic position and dominate Northern Israel. They are also the source for much of the water there. Shebba farms is also considered part of Syria by the UN, not part of Lebanon. It is also an area of great tactical relevance. In 1973, the Northern Front almost collapsed, only a dozen or so beat tanks stood between the Syrian/Iraq armies, had they continued to push Israel would likely have fallen. It was those tanks on the heights that stopped them, the Israelis paid in blood for those hills and know their value.
Hamas allowed the tunneling and the attack on the checkpoint. It clearly was not in their long term interest to do such an attack. The problem is that the Palestinians there are so wrapped up in their own propaganda that they are in a death spiral of their own making. Right after the withdrawal, Palestinian and Israel businesses had made an agreement to ship produce through the border checkpoints, these same checkpoint were used to attack Israel and then closed.
I feel sad for the moderate Palestinians still there (most have left) everytime they try to make things better, the fanatics do there best to screw it up. Groups like Hamas and Hezbollah don’t want economic progress, it removes the incentive to volunteer as a suicide bomber.
I am hoping that the recent moves will allow the ratcheting of tension to come down. But everytime peace begins to appear the fanatic will ensure it dies a quick death.
There is no way that the Israelis could or would allow the current population of Palestinians to merge with their society, it would overwhelm their state and destroy the purpose of Israel. Why should the only homeland for Jews be sacrificed to create yet another dysfunctional arab state and the 2nd Palestinian state? As you are likely aware, Jordon is mostly Palestinian, ruled by a minority group.
Truman Green
5 years ago
G. West, you say that Philwill is "absolutely correct" in his analysis, but he has no analysis of why wtc7 came down.
So will you let us know what caused the collapse of wtc7?
Frank
5 years ago
Colin,
They don't have to give up anything. What they need to do is make life in the Occupied Territories better. They can't do that alone so they will need Western help. Bright Palestinian kids need to see a future for themselves. Businesses can't be blown up with rockets because it makes simple things like insurance and loans impossible to get. Labour needs to get from one place to another without spending interminable amounts of time at checkpoints.
Obviously the best way to improve the lives of Palestinians is make them full Israeli citizens with all the rights and priveleges of other Israelis.
This is going to happen. Just as everybody in Canada doesn't agree on things, we shouldn't assume Palestinians live in a monolithic culture where they all want the same things. Opening the doors to Palestinians will increase the opportunies for terrorists to attack. However, in the long run the terrorists will wither on the vine as people find jobs and concentrate on what they want out of life. Extremists need Israel to just keep doing what its doing and Israel seems happy to comply.
Which is the same point I'm making.
Israel doesn't like the education Palestinian kids get? Fine, build schools and educate them as citizens of Israel.
Because a "Jewish homeland" is racist. You can't get more racist than declaring an area of land as being for Jews only. There is no Celtic homeland I can return to where I'm granted automatic citizenship and where only Celts are allowed to own land and be president.
The state of Israel will have to bend to the reality of where in the world its located and the century it exists in. It won't be safe till its neighbours cheer up.
Frank
5 years ago
Bin Laden does have demands, he wants US troops out of Arab countries, especially Arabia. Isn't that why he declared war on America?
If 9/11 was an inside job then its a pretty big conspiracy. I happen to like conspiracy theories but for them to work they have to involve a small group of people. I don't know who Bush would have hired to plant demolitions in the world trade centre buildings but somehow I think by now one of them would have talked.
Also, I assume nobody believes somebody was paid to kill themselves as they rammed airliners into the towers.
Nor does the idea that somebody launched a US missile at the Pentagon because someone told him to make any sense.
G West
5 years ago
Truman
I'm sure we've been through this before - I suspect WTC 7 fell because of fire. There was a tank of diesel fuel fairly high up in the structure (5,000 gallons if memory serves) and the structure was burning internally for a lot longer that the towers were. It's understandable that the fire went largely un-fought because of manpower problems, not to mention water availability. I know there's some controversy over a conversation Larry Silverstein had and a reference to 'pulling' the building late that afternoon but I wouldn't hang my hat on it.
Anyway, I can't remember the thread exactly from earlier this year but I made my views pretty clear at that time.
They haven't changed. No hard feelings though, as I said earlier, I think this kind of speculation and inquiry has great value anyway because it makes us look at events in a more critical way.
Cheers, Truman.
Alcibiades
5 years ago
Not very likely Murdock until you stop posting nonsense that only favours your jaundiced view of 'everything' except the republic of murdockville and your facile analysis of the way the world works.
I'm no fan of the current system or the current government in the US which you’d know if you actually spent some time reading what’s posted here and didn’t just indulge yourself in effort to promote your own Uber-Libertarian views.
Anyway, the fact that I don’t believe there was some bizarre and nefarious plot in the White House doesn’t mean that I don’t think the powers there took advantage of the tragedy of 9/11 to further their own equally misguided and prejudiced world view by the actions they’ve taken since.
Nana
5 years ago
In 1975 a fire burned for 3 hours on six floors at WTC. Why didn't it collapse then?
And don't tell me it was the lack of kerosene.
http://www.total911.info/2005/04/1975-wtc-fire-burned-six-floors-for.html
EXPLOSIVES PLANTED
IN TOWERS, NEW MEXICO
TECH EXPERT SAYS
NOTE: A FEW DAYS AFTER MAKING THIS STATEMENT, ROMERO
RETRACTED IT. PERHAPS HE SUDDENLY FELT THAT HE HIMSELF
MAY VERY SOON EITHER HAVE A FIERY ACCIDENT OR EXPLODE.
WELL, BY RETRACTING IT, ROMERO MAY LIVE, AND BY MAKING IT IN
THE FIRST PLACE, WE MAY HAVE FOUND THE CORRECT ANALYSIS.
< ROMERO SAID THAT IF HIS SCENARIO
IS CORRECT, THE DIVERSIONARY ATTACK
WOULD HAVE BEEN THE COLLISION OF
THE PLANES INTO THE TOWERS >
http://emperors-clothes.com/news/albu.htm
murdock
5 years ago
Frank,
The target programming in a cruise missile does not need to be revealed at all to the person whom triggers its launch. The programming details arrive via encrypted file from 'head office' in DC. There was a major airforce excercise ongoing in the NORAD zones over NWT and Nunavut at the time. Too easy to send the re-program signal and have a planned 'launch' from one of those aircraft 'go astray' without any of the associated operators know what was going on.
Nana
5 years ago
Bin laden was a CIA creation, for heaven sake. Somebody forgot to tell hom he was also going to be the patsy. He's probably been dead since December '01.
The US pulled the people looking for him out of Afghanistan in February of '02. Later Bush was to say they weren't interested in OBL as they led up to the Iraq war.
The whole thing is a scam from start to finish...Bush is just the flack-catcher..he can't plan to eat a pretzle.
It is a trick of how we are wired to take in information and then use it. We tend to hold on to the first explanation offered(left brain)....and then defend it(right brain)in spite of the evidence.
Also 65% of us,men and women alike, are consensus thinkers. The propagandists count on our natural inclinations and use them against us.
Nana
5 years ago
philwil you might want to read the whole article because of the embedded links.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/reynolds/reynolds12.html
It is hard to exaggerate the importance of a scientific debate over the cause(s) of the collapse of the twin towers and building 7. If the official wisdom on the collapses is wrong, as I believe it is, then policy based on such erroneous engineering analysis is not likely prove to be sound. Revised engineering and construction practices, for example, based on the belief that the twin towers collapsed through airplane damage and subsequent fires is premature, to say the least.
More importantly, momentous political and social consequences would follow if impartial observers concluded that professionals imploded the WTC. If demolition destroyed three steel skyscrapers at the World Trade Center on 9/11, then the case for an "inside job" and a government attack on America would be compelling. Meanwhile, the job of scientists, engineers and impartial researchers everywhere is to get the scientific and engineering analysis of 9/11 right, "though heaven should fall." Unfortunately, getting it right in today’s "security state" demands daring because explosives and structural experts have been intimidated in their analyses of the collapses of 9/11.
Frank
5 years ago
There is some argument about that. I think he's his own man and came to his political views through his educators and his environment.
Perhaps not, but they were interested enough to invade Afghanistan, topple the Taliban and leave thousands of troops there for years.
I agree, I don't think he's capable of planning and carrying out 9/11.
Do we know if there were any launches of cruise missiles within range of the Pentagon that morning? And what of the peaple who said they saw an airplance hit the Pentagon? They know the flight number, what else would have happened to that plane and its passengers?
Truman Green
5 years ago
Right again, Nana, not only about Bin Ladin probably being dead, but also about how most human beings process information.
The resolution of the issue is a kind of Schrodinger's Cats revelation about probabilities.
1. Never in history has a steel framed skyscraper collapsed due to fire.
2. wtc7 was a steel-framed skyscraper.
3. wtc7 collapsed, within 400 feet of wtc1
4. wt7 collapsed with 7 hours of the collapse of wtc1
5. airplanes PLUS fires possibly caused 1 and 2 to collapse
6. wtc7 was not hit by an airplane
7. wtc1 and 2 were hit by airplanes.
Probability of an event with millions to 1 unprobability happening with a few hundred feet and within a few hours of two other unprobable happenings, whether it is mathematically justifiable to multiply the probabilities OR NOT, makes these events happening without wtcs 1 and 2 being CAUSATIVELY CORRELATED to the collapse of wtc7, not ONLY UNLIKELY BUT AN INSTANCE OF ACAUSATIVE SYNCHRONICITY.
Nana
5 years ago
The invasion of Afghanistan was pre-planned remember? There was the pipeline Unocal wanted to put through to take oil and gas from the other "Stans." Kharzai worked for Unocal.
So now we are there and even though we're such nice guys, the Afghanis don't want us there either. Canadians fight and die for the interests of foreign oil companies. Terrific!
Truman Green
5 years ago
But, Nana, couldn't "consensus thinkers" just be a euphemism for "stu..."--oh never mind.
"The propagandists count on our natural inclinations and then use them against us."
Pretty smart stuff. Sounds like something outta 'Manufacturing Consent.'
Frank
5 years ago
However, just because wtc7 collapsed does not mean there was a conspiracy involving the white house to attack American citizens. Just as presents under the tree does not validate the claim there is a santa claus.
Many Afghanis do seem to want us there. I do not see any groundswell of Taliban support in the areas controlled by NATO. There may be in areas controlled by the Taliban but that could be due to coercion, which the Taliban in the past have demonstrated an aptitude for.
I don't believe we're in Afghanistan for oil. I think a better argument could be made that bases in Afghanistan and its neighbours extends American hegemony over an area they were previously blocked from.
Nana
5 years ago
Yes, 9/11 was run out of the Whitehouse basement as were the Teapot Dome Scandal and Iran-Contra. Actually a "tube like bunker" under the East Wing called the Presidential Emergency Operations Center.
Secretary of Transportation Norman Minetta's testimony before the 9/11 commission ...which was not included in the report
Among the hundred-plus lies and omissions now documented in the Commission's cover-up, some are big enough to drive to drive a Halliburton oil truck through. One of the most dramatic has always been Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta's direct contradiction of the official story timeline in his testimony to the Commission. Mr. Holland nails this story perfectly below and has even dug up the scrubbed video of Mineta's incriminating testimony. - Ed.
As David Ray Griffin aptly pointed out in his book "9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions", the most obvious example of the infidelity of the Report can be found when comparing the testimony of Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta to the findings of the Commission.
The hearings of May 22-23, 2003 were the second public hearings of the Commission and the first to focus on the actual events the day of 9/11. Secretary Mineta recounted to the Commission his experience on the morning of 9/11 from the time he was notified of the first plane hitting the WTC, to his experience at the Presidential Emergency Operations Center (PEOC) along with Vice President Cheney and staff.
Unlike Rumsfeld who claimed to be "out of the loop", and Myers who was not disturbed from breakfast with Max Cleland, Mineta was able to provide a full account of his experience that morning. Mineta testified that he arrived at the PEOC at 9:20 a.m. and that Vice President Cheney was already present with his staff. The 9/11 Commission Report states that Cheney himself arrived at the PEOC at 9:58, a stunning 38 minute contradiction to Mineta's testimony.
Mineta's PEOC testimony was also edited out of the 9/11 Commission video archive.
When questioned about this, representatives at the National Archive stated that the video may have been lost because of a 'snafu'. Following is a brief summary of the scrubbed video along with links to recently obtained C-SPAN video.
Clip #1: Lee Hamilton questions Mineta
Windows Media (1.81MB) / Real Media (1.83MB) / Quicktime (13.96MB)
Mineta responds to an opening question by Commissioner Hamilton about the events in the PEOC and an alleged shoot down order. He describes a conversation between Cheney and a young man:
Mineta: "During the time that the airplane was coming into the Pentagon, there was a young man who would come in and say to the Vice President...the plane is 50 miles out...the plane is 30 miles out....and when it got down to the plane is 10 miles out, the young man also said to the vice president "do the orders still stand?" And the Vice President turned and whipped his neck around and said "Of course the orders still stand, have you heard anything to the contrary!??"
Mineta explains that while he had not known it at the time, he had surmised that the standing order the young man asked about must have been a shoot down order. Hamilton, looking a bit confused, seeks clarification about which flight the conversation was regarding, and Mineta once again clarifies that it is the flight that hit the Pentagon at 9:37 a.m. on September 11.
There was good reason for the quizzical expression on Hamilton's face. Secretary Mineta had thoroughly trashed previous accounts of the PEOC activities that had been published in the press.
Truman Green
5 years ago
Yes, Frank, logically speaking, you're going out to the edge of what the algorithm will allow--and correctly;
The Acaustive synchronicity problem does not mean that the White House did it; only that SOMEBODY other than the quick study pilots knew exactly or approximately what was going to happen to wtc1 and wtc2. Otherwise you have to buy a statistical impossibility.
This is MINIMUM.
Strange though, when I recount acausal synchronicities that have happened to me people tend not to believe.
About oil...The guy with the Dollars or Euros gets to buy the oil. The US has the bucks, luckily manufactured out of thin air by the Fed, and it has the military industrial complex--even without attacking Iraq--to ensure that it will get the lion's share of everything it wants on this planet--both sides of peak oil.
In other words, it's impossible that the US invaded Iraq to get oil. Linda McQuaiq was good on the Bank of Canada's Crow doing the recession to protect the profits of creditors, but she was the stupid one in her, "It's the oil, stupid."
It was about who gains from the oil sales, not about who gets the oil. The US will always get it's share of available oil whether it invades or not.
Oil is a world commodity. You just gotta buy it. The only way that oil, then, could have come into the equation is if the Arabs for some strange reason didn't really want to sell it to you...or maybe you needed a new pipeline to get it to your tiny, nuclearized tribal homeland.
That's a different scenario and perfectly probable.
peefer
5 years ago
Sorry, a direct U.S. government conspiracy involving the destruction of the towers doesn't work for me. Too complex, too many people had to be in the know, etc.
On the other hand, connivance at the highest levels in the U.S. government/big business cabals - that then allowed terrorist attacks to occur, to be used for their own purposes to benefit those same government/big business interests - is very plausible.
Nana
5 years ago
Trueman
It is also about whether the oil is paid for in US$ or Euros.
The US has been having problems with people wanting to buy its debt and the costs of the Iraq War keep escalating.( Yet the word from on high is Americans should keep singing "Happy Days Are Here Again" in between the terror alerts and the fall in the housing market.)
If an oil producer refuses dollars it's game over.
Frank
5 years ago
Truman, as long as oil is purchased with US dollars the US will be sitting pretty. As you say, they can buy it wherever it is and their currency will remain strong. The only reason to invade an Iraq would be to pump more oil and lower the world price. But then discovering a new field in the Gulf Of Mexico will do that too.
The US does not even need to get oil from the Middle East, although if the Middle East wasn't pumping the world price would climb. So even if they wanted Saddam's oil on the market there's no reason to launch a 9/11. Given the US political climate Bush could have attacked Afghanistan and garnered a lot of support just because of the existence of the terrorist camps and the Taliban's questionable legitimacy. And they could have invaded Iraq without 9/11 happening simply by telling the same WMD lies. Blaming 9/11 on Venezuelans would have made more sense.
For there to be a US gov't conspiracy behind 9/11 there should be a clear motive. And I can't see one. Doesn't mean there aren't questions about the events of that day.
Nana
5 years ago
Aside from the "that's how we're wired" explanation, I cannot fathom how when there is a choice between people who lied the US into war,stole two elections, have both motive and opportunity don't win the conspiracy sweepstakes over a a guy in a cave on kidney dialysis. It is really an amazing demonstration of the power of belief.
Some motives, and remember psychopaths don't need much in the way of a motive.
Cheney profited through Haliburton. Bush Sr.through Carlyle group by military procurement.
Rumsfield, Sect. of Defence had testified on Sept 10, that 3 Billion was missing from the Pentagon. The records just happened to be in the wing that was demolished.
Those who may not have profited directly were promoted. General Meyers, who had no explanation of why no planes were scrambled instead of being court martialed was made head of Joint Chiefs of Staff. Wolfowitz went on to be appointed head of the World Bank.
Control of as much oil as possible is a desirable thing. One can do such great robber baron things with monopolies.
Truman Green
5 years ago
Frank, I shouldn't be sarcastic because you're tops in my book, but did you really say, "...there should be clear motive. And I can't see one."
Uh... how about a good excuse to do just about everything they've done since the towers went down--for openers; Iraq, Afghanistan--not to mention launch an era of permanent wars on terror--at home and abroad--and crush Israel's enemies.
Nana
5 years ago
Sorry, that was 3 TRILLION that disappeared under the Comptrollership of Rabbi Dov Zackheim while Rummy was in charge.
Truman Green
5 years ago
Yes, I know about the dollar-euro competition, Nana. So what's up with that? Are the Saudis et al accepting dollars or euros? I have a feeling the Iraqis are getting dollars for "their" oil. Just a guess.
The brain
5 years ago
When Saddam made talk of trading oil in currency that wasn't american, he was invaded... twice. As soon as Iran spoke of trading oil in euro's, the U.S. amped up its war talk.
In my view, there are way too many coincidences that have occured for 911 not to have been a whitehouse led event.
- WTC7 controlled demolishion
- missing pentagon money
- Osama Bin Laden being a former CIA agent (maybe not so former)
- Bush and Bin Ladin Families are on a first name basis and are business partners for decades.
- war profiteering in the whitehouse by both the president and vice president of the United States since 911.
- a pathetic, incompetent and highly under budget investigation of 911 at best.
- the invasion of Iraq under false pretenses.
I shouldn't have to mention the name of who was behind more than 200 billion in oil contracts with Haliburton and the U.S. government, contracts that were awarded directly by one of Haliburtons former CEO's, Dick Cheney. I shouldn't need to mention that Dick Cheney became a billionaire as a result of U.S. caused mid east instability causing high oil prices. Or where Bush had his money. Bush and Co. made a killing off of war and high oil prices that they alone have created. It's not supply and demand that drove these prices up.
Some of us are missing the fundamentals of what it takes to own a resource from another country. For one, it takes currency the investor can trust. Secondly, it takes a government that will allow a "free market economy" a fancy term used to decribe globalization, or internationally integrated markets.
These "wars" aren't about terror or religion, or oil for americans back home. Its about ownership and what it will take for the richest and most powerful shareholders to own even more. Coups, war, its all necessary to replace governments that won't sell out their resources to U.S. corporations and now, with banks becoming as powerful as they have, it is no longer just the U.S. or large multinational corporations that have become the major players in a pure play driven by greed, and Iraq is the worlds present example of everything I've mentioned. The paper trail in Iraq is an enditment in itself.
IAMC
5 years ago
I was on the Angry White North website today. They linked me to a video on Democracy Now that held a debate between the two people responsible for the wildly popular online movie called " Loose Change " Millions of Americans have viewed this production online. This thing is a 911 conspiracy statement. The host has both these creators paired up with a couple of guys from Popular Mechanics Magazine (PMM) . The PMM guys had a logical answer for every mystery this production brought up. On fact it's standard knowledge that the collapse of the World Trade Centre ( WTC ) has become the most analyzed disaster, by the engineering and arch> community in our history. It's all explained. The Pentagon, United 93, the WTC.
The only defense the sceptics had was to call everyone opposed to them a liar.
This was a sweet thing to see.
Nana
5 years ago
I saw the same exchange. except I saw it very differently. The reactions of the PM editors was very revealing. Miegs looked fine, but if you looked away from him and just listened to his voice, one could hear he was lying. The tremelo gave him away. Aha,I thought, a man whose concience is bothering him. The other man,Dunbar, was as smooth as a snake.
The interesting thing about the original article is that it was written by a certain Michael Chertoff...cousin to the Homeland Security Chertoff.
IAMC
5 years ago
Thanks Nana for confirming my observation that the lib argument is to simply call their opposition liars, without offering and intelligent rebuttal.
Give me the facts. Give me something to go on. The facts are there for my side. The truth is on my side. The logic is on my side. You can't simply talk about the " tremolo " You need to listen to the words that were spoken.
The debate was a one sided victory for my side.
Nana Nana. Nana Nana, Hey Hey Hey Goodbye.
We are not talking about an article written by Michael Chertoff. Wake UP.
I am talking about a debate between the producers of an online production called " Loose Change " and Popular Mechanics editors. The Loose Change guys were subjected to calling their opposition liars, without defending their points. Just call your opposition liars. Is that the way of the left. Can they not come up with evidence and logical arguments.
Why, Nana, do you try to dumb down the argument like you are are a dizzy blonde?
I don't give you any more credit than I would give a salamander.
G West
5 years ago
Tyee editor, please note the above ad hominem comment by IAMC/Ron Erwin.
Frank
5 years ago
Truman, thanks and same back.
The thing is, I don't think they needed 9/11 to carry all this out. I'm sure we all remember the Reagan years where he'd invade places like Grenada, ally with right-wing death squads in El Salvador, mine the harbours of Nicaragua and arm terrorists to kill farmers and hack the arms off their kids. When he wasn't engaged in arms trading with Iran of course. The US population either supported it or turned a blind eye. You certainly didn't hear much about all that around the time of the Reagan funeral.
Bush was still in his first year, he could have said Saddam had WMD's and got enough support to invade Iraq with or without 9/11. Most of the US public would have backed him anyway.
And as we know from Clarke the counter-terror guy, many in the administration like Rumsfeld didn't even want to attack Afghanistan after 9/11, they wanted to attack Iraq. Its almost like they felt obligated to attack Afghanistan first.
Nana,
The thing is Nana, they didn't profit directly from 9/11. They profited later and as I said to Truman, they could have carried out the same policies without bringing down the WTC.
If they really thought they needed some attack (which they didn't), why not hit UC Berkeley? Why pick targets that vote Republican?
Frank
5 years ago
I like this quote of peefer's. I too find it much more plausible that a small group of PNAC sympathizers knew an attack was coming and felt they could profit from it by letting it happen than I do a theory that Bush co. risked everything by installing demolition charges into the WTC.
For one thing, it greatly reduces the number of people that would have to be involved.
IAMC
5 years ago
Again, G West, I put you out there as a wimp. Go to mommy baby. Mommy is not listening to you tonight.
She is not on your side, tonight. Maybe tomorrow I will be toast.
This site is getting to the point. You are a whiner.
There are many sites for us all to visit. I could name them, but I won't.
I respect this site " THETYEE.CA "
G West
5 years ago
No you don't Ron. My only point is that there is selective editing going on around here and it ought to stop. You post ad hominem attacks on so-called leftists all the time. In fact, you've just called me a name. You might want to check the agreement you signed when you started posting on this site.
You're doing it again right now. If you respected the site, you wouldn't behave the way you do; spewing hate at whomever you happen to disagree with. I'll keep on pointing out every incident I can because there is a bias to the way things are frequently being handled around here and it ought to stop. Either everything goes or nothing, in my view.
Anyone who truly respects this site and cares about the responsibility that goes with free speech for the people who post here knows exactly what I'm talking about.
Nana
5 years ago
The towers were not only a symbol, they needed cheap demolition.Silverstein who bought the lease for $124 mill made $7 Billion on his investment and he's a buddy of Netanyahu who said on the day of the attacks he thought the destruction of the towers was very good for Israel. We're talking criminal network, not statesmanship.
The clips from Loose Change had been already shown when Meigs and Dunbar denied the evidence presented and LIED. Calling them liars was appropriate.
Bush &Co. didn't install explosives in the towers themselves. They had gremlins do it for them. Some of the gremlins seem to have been Israelis. see:
http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/
Set 11, 2006
A warehouse located at 3 West 18th Street in Weehawken, New Jersey, where a group of Israeli intelligence agents operating under cover as movers and staged a series of false flag operations on the morning of Sept. 11, 2001, attracted the constant attention today of a roving Weehawken police cruiser. The warehouse, which was leased to Urban Moving Systems, an Israeli-owned firm, was discovered to have contained pipes, wires, detonators, blasting caps, fertilizer-fuel compounds, and traces of anthrax by the FBI after an Urban Moving Systems van with five Israelis, spotted earlier photographing the World Trade Center before the first plane struck the North Tower, was stopped by East Rutherford, New Jersey police. Dressed as Arabs and seen by witnesses celebrating the attacks, the five Israelis earned the nickname "the dancing Israelis." cont'd
Nana
5 years ago
"The East Rutherford police stopped the Israeli van based on an FBI national "Be On Lookout" (BOLO) notice issued earlier on the morning of 911. When asked if he recalled the incident, the Weehawken police officer told WMR that the local police had no role in the investigation of the warehouse after the FBI stepped in to assert Federal jurisdiction in the case. The FBI permitted the owner of Urban Moving Systems, Dominick Suter, known to be a Mossad agent, to flee the country after his five employees were arrested for suspicion of involvement with the 911 attack. Suter's name also showed up on a U.S. government watch list of 911 suspects that also contained the names of the hijackers and several of their interlocutors. After being held in the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn for 71 days, the Israelis were permitted to fly home to Israel, a decision prompted -- over the objection of the CIA -- by pressure being applied on the Bush administration by then-Jerusalem Mayor Ehud Olmert and New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani. WMR has reported that Suter later re-entered the United States and was working for a Florida-based aircraft parts supply company."
Nana
5 years ago
Frank
PNAC also said a New Pearl Harbor was needed. Hollywood obliged that summer and released a lousy film called Pearl Harbor and good old spider lady Hillary was one of the loudest voices calling 9/11 a New Pearl Harbor. What a mad coincidence.
Nicaragua had 3 mil people and no weapons, ditto Grenada but with a population of 120,000. The US only takes on weak and defensless nations. It took 12 years of sanctions and starvation and days of shock and awe before they would dare send troops into Iraq.
r
G West
5 years ago
Just so no one gets the idea, after recent stories on the Israel/Hezbollah Lebanon conflict, that the only side that gets any stick is the Israeli one, here's another story of a report from Amnesty International:
Frank
5 years ago
Nana, I saw the PNAC document quite awhile ago and I recall the quote that a Pearl Harbour was needed.
But they really haven't done that much with 9/11 on the foreign front that they couldn't have done anyway.
What they have used 9/11 for is an attack on their own citizens. Without 9/11 I doubt they would have won re-election in 2004, I doubt they would get away with Guantanamo Bay, I doubt they'd be able to have secret prisons for undesirables, I doubt they'd be able to spy on their own people etc.
Its not foreign affairs where 9/11 seemed to have assisted them carry out the unattainable, its domestically.
And if there was a conspiracy to allow 9/11 to happen then I think the goals would be domestic ones. After all, once you've made dissent at home equivalent to throwing away your career you can do anything you want internationally.
Nana
5 years ago
OK FRANK, you're tending toward a LIHOP position. I am definitely on the MIHOP side. Only insiders could have had NORAD chasing imaginary blips and the rest of the US Airforce grounded for over an hour. http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/911stand.html
Rumsfeld changed the standing orders about interception and shoot down in June '01 making it neccesary to get permission from the Sect. of Defence to shoot down. Cheney talking to Russert said that the order to shoot down could only come from the President. Sounds more like MIHOP to me.see: http://emperors-clothes.com/indict/indict-2.htm
Frank
5 years ago
I don't think I'm a card-carrying member of the LIHOP brigade Nana, its just that it does make more sense to me. After all, we do know that Bush and co. were warned in advance so we can either say he didn't act on the intelligence because of incompetency or because he (perhaps on Cheney's and PNAC's advice) wanted to just let it happen. At first I was a believer in the incompetence theory, a version of which Michael Moore turned into a movie. I looked at a lot of the conspiracy theory stuff and admit some of it looks pretty good. However, I can't believe that even of Bush (a guy who is fighting the logic of the Peter Principle on a daily basis). So if you want to place me, I'm somewhere between the Incompetence and LIHOP markers.
And I'm not defending Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz and Perle.
Nana
5 years ago
Frank
Can't you believe that Bush is a patsy with privileges? As the late Ann Richards said of Poppy Bush, "He was born with a silver foot in his mouth."
Bush is the guy out front...that's all. The forces that run him are international gangsters and have been for generations.
Truman Green
5 years ago
Frank is LIHOP really preferable to MIHOP?--for a guy who's practiced saying(in front of the mirror): "My job is to protect the American people," at least a thousand times.
Isn't that what the War On Terror is all about?
If you see a pitbull charging at your 3-year old, and you run in the house and get under the bed, are you much better than the guy who set the dog against the child?
Maybe you're worse. The guy who set the dog against the child's at least insane.
Frank
5 years ago
Truman, right, and I don't think Bush is insane. Nor do I think he thought that the warnings he got would end up with the WTC towers collapsing. Maybe something more along the lines of the first attack on the WTC.
But whether it was incompetence or LIHOP, he knew the attack was coming, we can agree on that. And we can agree he didn't try to prevent it.
Nana, yes I can believe that.
Nana
5 years ago
I just found http://www.brasscheck.com/videos/911/91110.html
contains a 10 min video of Karl Shwartz connecting the dots on Why Afghanistan with a good map of existing a propossed pipelines.
Frank
5 years ago
Nana, MIHOP is saying that Bush killed 3000 of his own people, probably his own voters, so as to get a Unocal pipeline across Afghanistan. That makes no sense. He could have invaded Afghanistan anyway, no one was going to stand up for the Taliban.
Nana
5 years ago
Frank, there were multiple benefits anticipated, not the least of which is the police state being put in place right now.
There is something there for everyone....
profits for oil companies, military procurement, bases all over the place, the beginning of the War of Civilizations...you name it. Most important of all is that 9/11 was not only an attention grabber (look how much time we've spent on it) it's the excuse for everything that follows including the invasions of 2.sovereign nations and the disolution of both Canadian and Mexican sovereignty.
It really doesn't matter whether you think the plot is sensible or insane...that's what they did.
Truman Green
5 years ago
Frank, did you see Chomsky say this in a Stroumboulopoulos interview on 'The Hour' a few months ago before Stroumboulopoulos went suddenly to commercial:
"That's, of course, if you think Bush is really running things."
This is a paraphrase but that's the exact meaning of his comment.
I think that's what Nana is proposing to you, to which you've already said, "Nana, yes, I can believe that."
So again, syllogistically speaking, if you agree with the statement regarding a pack of international gangsters, does it not follow then, that you must concede that MIHOP is at least as possible as LIHOP?
Maybe consider this together with Eisenhower's warning about the IMC.
I think if Bush had his choice he'd just hit Haliburton up for a few hundred mil without hurting anybody--if he possibly could--and go quietly into secret service purgatory for the next 30 years.
And this from a former Canadian defense minister: http://www/.septembereleventh.org/alerts/hellyer.php
Truman Green
5 years ago
Just noticed the link to the Paul Hellyer interview doesn't work, so I'd like to try it one more time.
http://www.septembereleventh.org/alerts/hellyer.php
IAMC
5 years ago
Truman, what is the point of posting this link to a moon bat socialist Canadian commenting on 911?. I don't get it.
A more useful suggestion is to Google 'Popular Mechanics' the second site listed is their information regarding the conspiracy theories, and information that explains that there were logical explanations for the disaster of 911.
This would be helpful to those that are falsely scared of the US Govt.
( At least when they are Republicans. )
Frank
5 years ago
Nana, as I said above, I think that "police state" would be the main reason if there was a conspiracy.
I think it does matter if I (or "we") think the plot is sensible. If 20 years from now somebody on their deathbed talks no one will believe him anyway unless the plot makes sense to us.
Truman, I didn't see the Chomsky interview. However, I wouldn't dismiss a scenario where Bush is a figurehead. It simply moves the focus from Bush and asks, would Cheney and Perle at al murder their own citizens? They might but how do they get everyone else to go along? Its like the link to the FAA guy who shredded the cassette tape with the interviews of controllers in contact with the planes, how could such a low level guy be in on such a conspiracy? I see that situation as puzzling but there's no way I can see Cheney saying that guy has to be in on it.
MIHOP requires a wider conspiracy than LIHOP and therefore it requires more of a smoking gun to produce the same believability.
I read the Hellyer interview (I've read his books on the economy too) but its aimed more at an American audience. The head of CAP and UFO proponent is not going to convince many Canadians.
Truman Green
5 years ago
I posted the Hellyer interview because of what he said about the air force standing down, which I believe is an authentic view from someone who had no reason to invent, and who was in a position to know--ufos or not.
If this is true and the collapse of wtc7 was not caused, even indirectly, by the airplanes hitting 1 and 2, then we can all stop speculating. Nana's correct in possibly everything she has said.
Frank
5 years ago
Truman, but he was minister of defence 40 years ago. And he didn't really say anything except that it seemed strange to him the US Air Force was so easily beaten.
Isn't it more likely that 9/11 was the result of incompetence on the part of Bush and Cheney and the fact that the US NSA-CIA-FBI-Air Force-Navy-Army are not the gods that Americans and their entertainment industry make them out to be?
Or that they knew the attacks were coming, thought they'd be of little consequence and were going to use them as a PNAC "Pearl Harbour" but once the planes hit realized they had made a huge mistake and tried to cover their asses?
Nana
5 years ago
Frank
Incompetance is the excuse crooked politicians have been using for years.
When you understand psychopathy, you understand there are no barriers to the atrocities they will commit except whether they think they can get away with it.
Operation Northwoods, which was a partial template for 9/11, was thought of 40 years ago. The Joint Chiefs of staff were willing to either shoot down a passenger plane or sabotage a John Glen flight in order to start a war with Cuba.
The Gulf of Tonkin never even happened and it cost 50,000 American lives and 2-5 million Vietnamese,Laotian and ultimately Cambodian lives.
Please don't fall for the incompetance excuse. If it were true, heads should have rolled instead of promotions and Medals of Freedom given out.
You give these gangsters far too much credit for fellow feeling.
The brain
5 years ago
I'm with nana and Truman on this one as well, Frank and G.
People who think that Bush and Cheney did nothing wrong with 10X increasing their worth due to their decisions to make war, e.i. "war profiteering", without questioning whether or not there was any possible involvement with the whitehouse in creating this "war on terror" to begin with...
Fact. Iraq was invaded on a lie.
Fact. Bush and Cheney made billions, thats right, billions, not mere hundreds of millions but billions on war. Only a fool would not ask "Geez, did they happen to start this one themselves?" There are billions of reasons why we all be asking this question, the first being, "geez, is it moral and exemplar for the leader of the most powerful nation of the world to profit grossly from war?"
We get sold on the same old same o. "Bush never investigated simply because 100 people didn't do their jobs that day. He's just doing what a good president does and protects his own." So, I guess we like inept leaders, or want to hear something other than the truth.
wtc7 was a controlled demolishion. Anyone who see's the footage will see it for themselves. wtc7 went down from a first and second floor explosion and the video proves it. Since WTC7 was burning for 7 hours after WTC1 and WTC2 were hit, it is highly fiesable that there were tactical engineers sent in after the planes took down wtc1 and wtc2 to demolish wtc7 with explosives, for any number of reasons. Create even further instability with the markets... but my bet lies on Silverstein making a great deal of money off of it... with the consent of the whitehouse. WTC7 doesn't prove whitehouse conspiracy. At the least, however, it proves fraud and conspiracy to cover up a fraud which is an excellent start.
The most damaging evidence against the whitehouse with a 911 conspiracy outside of Bush and Cheneys blatant war profiteering after the fact with an unjustified invasion of Iraq, does come from the Bush families close ties with the Bin Ladin family and Osama's (so called) former CIA agent past. With this, no one can deny the squirmy closeness of it, or the fact that the Bin Ladins along with other Saudi families have financed the Bush family (senior and junior) with the tune of 1.4 billion dollars over a 30 year span. They didn't invest in GWB senior and junior for kicks.
G West
5 years ago
the brain.
As I wrote on this very subject months ago, I'm not even particularly concerned about WTC 7. Perhaps it was a controlled demolition, but I doubt it. There has been, to my knowledge, very little research done on the subject that I've read. We do know that there was a large tank of diesel fuel high up in the structure and we know the building burned internally for hours. That the NYFD was in no shape that day to combat anything effectively is hardly news - and much of the speculation on this subject relates to Silverstein's comment about 'pulling' which he says referred to pulling out the few firemen endangered that afternoon by the building's immenent collapse.
Anyway, have you listened to the recently declassified tapes from the NORAD centre for that day ? Confusion reigned. No time for more.
murdock
5 years ago
Frank:
Of course not, wtc7 is an insurance dodge...
Colin
5 years ago
Frank
We are roughly on the same page, however it is unrealistic to expect the Israelis to give full citizenship to every Palestinian. In short order, Israel as we know would cease to exist and the Israel Jews would become a persecuted minority, you are merely changing one crisis for another. Is Israel a state based on religion, absolutely, so are all of the Arab countries surrounding it. The various Arab government all have long track records of suppressing their people. How many people remember Hama where 15,000 people died when the Syrian government decided to teach the Islamic radicals a lesson?
If the Palestinians people voted to tomorrow on a clear referendum to end the violence against Israel, I would be demanding that our government start pushing more money into rebuilding Gaza, but for now they are caught up in a losing battle that is costing them their future. Is it fair for them to concede? No it’s not, but it is realistic. The Israelis want peace and cooperation, but Israel is worth more as a demon, than as a trading partner to the Arab and Islamic world.
Nana
5 years ago
Colin
You have it backward...just as you are supposed to.
http://www.counterpunch.com/loewenstein09132006.html
Israel is interested in more territory(Eretz Israel) not peaceful coexistance.
Nana
5 years ago
GWEST there has been research done by Stephen Jones proving that the patented explosive called Thermatewas used in all three buildings...all three were insured by the lease holder Larry Silverstein. Thermate accounts for the pools of molten iron still bubbling 3 weeks later in the ruins of all threebuildings. It takes time to wire building for demolition....it could not have been done on 9/11. There were "power downs" in the prior two weeks when the bldgs could have been wired.
There is an energy deficit in the official explanation, i.e. buildings which collapse without explosives don't create pyroclastic flows or shoot steel beams high into the air.
There is a small video of WTC7 collapsing on the opening page of http://www.st911.org/
"Replay a few times and notice:
* The roofs dips inward
* Explosions are visible running up on the right side
* Explosions are visible in the front
* Simultaneous symmetrical collapse (all joints fail at the same time)
* Falls at free-fall speed
* Falls into its own footprint without damaging surrounding buildings"
Frank
5 years ago
Nana, you should read the articles from the other side of the debate too. Is Stephen Jones a credible source? Many would say no.
As for Thermite, I quote from a guy who is on the other side :
As for the video of the collapse. many have said it looks like a controlled demolition but that doesn't prove anything beyond that it Looks like a controlled demolition.
Nana
5 years ago
Beside the "Five Dancing Israelis" we have more instances of Israelis who seem to likemakingor helping things go boom.
An oldie, but goodie:
Mossad Agents Arrested
In Attempt To Bomb
Mexican Congress
http://www.rense.com/general17/mossadagentsarrested.htm
Israeli Diplomat Carrying Large Quantity Of Explosives Arrested In Argentina
23/08/2006
http://signs-of-the-time
s.org/signs/editorials/signs20060914_IsraeliDiplomatCarryingLargeQuantityOfExplosivesArrestedInArgentina.php
Nana
5 years ago
http://signs-of-the-times.org/signs/editorials/signs20060914_IsraeliDiplomatCarryingLargeQuantityOfExplosivesArrestedInArgentina.php
Frank
5 years ago
Colin,
Yes it is, right now. But then the idea of re-creating a state that hadn't existed for 2000 years on top of the people that have been living there since the Byzantines was unthinkable.
My point is that necessity is the mother of both innovation and pragmatism.
Not necessarily. Jews and Moslems can live together as history demonstrates. If the process is slow enough that it falls within people's comfort zones, and the result is increased economic opportunity as well as increased safety from terrorists and military asaults then there is no reason why the process won't succeed. Politically it would be possible for the Jews to be ensured of political representation at the cabinet level regardless of the eventual population balance. It can work.
Its not part of the Arab genetic makeup if that's what you're implying Colin. Just as burning Jews and women is not part of the European genetic code regardless of what history might show. The past is a different country.
I think the Palestinians will indeed "concede" IF their concession brings not just a comfy peace for Israel but also one for themselves. The problem with all the talk of Palestinian surrender is they don't gain from it at all. Oh sure, the west might promise to send 500 million but that will be pissed away in no time and the place will still be poor and filled with rubble. They need more than that. They need a Marshall Plan and security and a future. Aid alone hasn't worked in too many places. When Palestinian towns have been rebuilt with aid money they still need a functioning economy and society and the best way for that to happen is a sort of confederation with Israel.
Solve the Palestinian problem and everything else will take care of itself.
Nana
5 years ago
http://www.rense.com/general73/bloody.htm
The Bloody Reign Of Ehud
Olmert & His Ties To 911
By Christopher Bollyn
9-15-6
Some background on Zionism is provided. Sure is different from the chicken soup version I first learned.
Bollyn himself was recently beaten and arrested by a SWAT team when he reported a suspicious car watching his house.
Colin
5 years ago
Frank
Nothing genetically stops the Arabs, but certainly 2 cultural factors play a major part. Islam (and it’s current interpretations) and tribalism. Interesting to note that Muhammad understood the destructive power of tribalism and worked hard to break it’s grasp on his people, Islam was that attempt, unfortunately Islam was far more influenced by Tribalism than the other way around.
Only a portion of the Arab population in 1948 had been there since time the Byzantine time, as were a number of Jews. As I already posted they numbers of all of the groups shot up dramatically from 1902 to the 1946 census. Many traveler accounts that have been recorded mentioned just how sparse the area was populated, including Mark Twain. So I will take that comment with a large bag of salt.
The Jews have suffered persecutions since the Roman times, do you will think they will just give up their state? I think they would rather die.
I don’t doubt that the Palestinins are getting the dirty and short end of the stick, I wish it wasn’t so, but I don’t see any of the Arab countries (other than Jordon and to a lesser extent Egypt) doing much about it.
I would love to see a Marshall plan of sorts there. I suspect that many Palestinians would come back to help if they thought it stood a chance. A loose confederation? In the 90’s I think it would have stood a chance, the will to work with the Pals was there in Israel. That will has been burnt out of the Israelis who now want nothing to do with them for at least a generation.
Both side would need to agree to a ceasefire and enforce it, with no central authority in Gaza (never really was one) that is unlikely, Hamas can not accept the existence of Israel without losing a huge amount of face and the core of their being.
I am hoping this latest gambit by Abbas will give both side an excuse to back off and give things time to cool off.
Every Israel I know hated fighting in Gaza or the West bank, they all felt unclean by the event, but felt they had no choice.
Nana
5 years ago
Colin Your underlying assumption is that all this is the fault of the Arabs. It wasn't the Arabs who moved in and terrorized the Jews into leaving ancestral homes. You are giving support to the basic lie of A land without people for a people without land whether you realize it or not.
Hamas was created and funded by Israel in order to split support for the PLO.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/news_alert_hamas2.html
According to former State Department counter-terrorism official Larry Johnson, "the Israelis are their own worst enemies when it comes to fighting terrorism."
"The Israelis are like a guy who sets fire to his hair and then tries to put it out by hitting it with a hammer."
"They do more to incite and sustain terrorism than curb it," he said.
Nana
5 years ago
Just take a look at the maps provided at
http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=553
Remember that the UN created two states in 47.One has clearly overwhelmed the other.
Frank
5 years ago
Yep, populations shot up all over the world in the 19th and 20th centuries. Hardly anybody lived in lots of places that are now teeming with people. And when you look at the Holy Land you wonder why anybody would want to live there anyway.
Then they will unless Jewish girls are going to start having 20 babies each. As regards persecutions, lots of groups have suffered in the past. Nobody gets their own country somewhere else just because the Romans weren't nice to them. What if the Dacians or Sarmations decided they wanted Alberta as compensation for past misdeeds? Doesn't mean past misdeeds are not important to the Jewish people and how they see themselves but really the Palestinians are more concerned with their own people being persecuted in the here and now and I don't blame them.
Most Arab countries have a hard enough time finding jobs and food for their own people, let alone the Palestinians. The only Arab countries that can afford to do anything spend their money on luxury items, watering desert golf courses and buying new US weapons so there won't be any Marshall Plan from them.
With no hope of outside assitance the Palestinians have to look to themselves.
Its unfortunate to say but if it was me, I'd keep fighting. I'd never let an invader take over Canada and move me out of my house to some desolate prairie while they got the houses, water and orchards. Hezbollah has shown what can be done. The people of the West Bank and Gaza can either spend the rest of their lives like slaves at checkpoints and living in rubble knowing an Israeli missile could destroy their house at any moment or they can carry the fight to Israel. Increase the level of violence. In the short run they'll be slaughtered but given their birth rate its only a matter of time till they take over Israel and live in poverty in Israel instead of Gaza. I'm sure that'll make somebody somewhere happy.
Sadly there's nothing on the horizon and although I can talk all day about what they should do, they won't. Perhaps one day saner heads will prevail although given the situation and the people involved I doubt that will ever happen.
IAMC
5 years ago
Palestinians didn't have many ( zero ) residences that were opulent, swimming pool, Mercedes parked in the driveway types of lifestyles in the first place. They can't get their act together. \ But they are sure interested in robbing Israel of their hard fought riches.
I think I have heard parables that expose this thinking.
Robin Hood was a fantasy of the British Socialists for many years. If this guy existed today, he would be called George Bush.
Nana
5 years ago
Each US citizen is robbed of $1000 per year for Israel.
Israel has had $100 Billion from the US and $50 Billion from Germany over the last 50 years.They have used the money to build a nuclear arsenal and steal land fron the Palestinians.
W is the opposite of Robin Hood in that he steals from the poor to give to the rich.
Alcibiades
5 years ago
IAMC/Ron Erwin
You must have been thoroughly drunk last night Ron. That post makes even less sense than most of yours. What would you say the stolen land is worth?
Jack's
5 years ago
Frank wrote....
This is an excellent point, although there are other countries in which one must be a citizen to own land. But automatic citizenship because of your religion?.....I don't think so...
BC Mary
5 years ago
Wha' happened to philwill, eh?
Truman Green
5 years ago
Exactly, BC Mary. PhilWill even threatened to "do the physics" regarding how the buildings came down. Big talker or what!
Especially with him being a big engineer and all.
I don't think he even knew that three buildings collapsed.
murdock
5 years ago
Final parting shot:
Explosives expert on the buildings:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/022904degrand.html
Former German Defence Minister confirming CIA involvement in events of 9/11:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/021104vonbuelow.html
The leaks and information about all of this will not really start flowing until those whom really know and face physical 'sanction' for revealing their truths are dead and their 'post-mortem testimonials' come out...
Nana
5 years ago
7/7 more false flag terrorism with many similarities to 9/11, not the least of which were the drills which conveniently turned into reality.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/september2006/160906diversion.htm
Frank
5 years ago
Interesting link murdock, so you're a MIHOP I assume?
G West
5 years ago
After a 72-hour non-stop anything I think you could get 'me' to agree the towers were blown up - whoops, I mean down!
G West
5 years ago
Murdock
SO you believe the testimony of a stroke survivor former US pilot and his retired pilot colleagues can brainstorm for 72 straight hours and come up with anything other than a lot of gibberish? You're more gullible than I thought.
Wake me when you have some real evidence.
Colin
5 years ago
Frank
I understand their desire to keep fighting, I certainly would consider it if I was in their place. However I would also look at the end game. Every Infitada has bleed the Palestinians more, they have not a lot left and they have used up the patience of just about everyone. The PLO was kicked out of almost every Arab country because they started pushing people around or tried to take over the host country. The Palestinians were despised in Iraq as they got favoured status from Saddam. They don’t need an enemy they are quite content to screw each other and piss on any chance for peace. Every wondered how the IDF knows when to hit one of the terrorist leaders? It’s because the Pals use the IDF to get rid of the competition.
The average Israel knows that peace with the Palestinians is the best thing for Israel, both economically and socially. That’s why there was hope in the 90’s for peace, but one of the victims of the suicide bombers and the Quassam rockets is that desire and trust. I afraid that only thing that may save the Pals is reaching a point of such despair that they will be ready to try anything, including peace in order to gain something for their children.
As for Israel being racists, well it will fit right in with the rest of the countries there. They aren’t called “Islamic†for nothing. I remember talking to my brother inlaw who is very devout, when the subject of “zakat†(giving to the needy) A Muslim is required to help another Muslim, but not anyone else. When I told him we gave to charity, I told him we don’t ask if it goes to any particular religious group. The concept of helping others from a another religion just baffled him. He is a really decent guy, but his traditional upbringing heavily reinforces a Them vs us view of the world.
Nana
5 years ago
Colin religious Jews don't think one has to help anyone other than a fellow Jew either....to the point of not even to save a life. That is what made Jesus parable of the Good Samaritan so shocking.
"UN partition o Palestine
Britain, which had ruled Palestine since 1920, handed over responsibility for solving the Zionist-Arab problem to the UN in 1947.
The territory was plagued with chronic unrest pitting native Arabs against Jewish immigrants (who now made up about a third the population, owning about 6% of the land). The situation had become more critical with the displacement of hundreds of thousands of Jews fleeing the Nazi persecution in Europe. Some six million Jews were killed in the Holocaust during World War II.
The UN set up a special committee which recommended splitting the territory into separate Jewish and Palestinian states. Palestinian representatives, known as the Arab Higher Committee, rejected the proposal; their counterparts in the Jewish Agency accepted it.
The partition plan gave 56.47% of Palestine to the Jewish state and 43.53% to the Arab state, with an international enclave around Jerusalem. On 29 November 1947, 33 countries of the UN General Assembly voted for partition, 13 voted against and 10 abstained. The plan, which was rejected by the Palestinians, was never implemented.
Britain announced its intention to terminate its Palestine mandate on 15 May 1948 but hostilities broke out before the date arrived.
The death of British soldiers in the conflict made the continuing presence in Palestine deeply unpopular in Britain. In addition, the British resented American pressure to allow in more Jewish refugees - a sign of growing US support for Zionism.
Both Arab and Jewish sides prepared for the coming confrontation by mobilising forces. The first "clearing" operations were conducted against Palestinian villages by Jewish forces in December."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_ip_timeline/html/1947.stm
So the UN gives almost 57% of the land to uninvited guests who only make up 1/3 the population....and the Palestinians are supposed to swallow that too. The guests are not even content with what was allotted and spend the next 60 years grabbing off more territiory.(see the maps posted below in case you need a refresher.)
http://www.ccmep.org/delegations/maps/palestine.html
Your posting is a lassic case of blame the victim.
Alcibiades
5 years ago
It's always interesting to look at the point where Israel's uncritical supporters say one should begin to consider the matter, isn't it?
Frank
5 years ago
Colin
The Palestinians aren't saints. Few people are. You can even look at people of the Jewish faith when they went through hell, and find stories where the need for personal survival trumped the group. People in bad situations often don't act that saintly, let's not flush the whole community as a result.
Agreed, they aren't the only racist state in the world. But I would like this point to be clear to those who think Israel somehow represents "us". They don't.
Both sides have to want peace. Israel has won so often that they have a tendency to want a "Roman peace" where they dictate to the defeated how its going to work. Its why I was happy to see Hezbollah win the last war. Israel wasn't destroyed nor even hurt and it might make them a little more conversational when it comes to talking to the Palestinians. The Palestinians for their part must have by now reached the point of despair and want peace, just not surrender. Perhaps they'll start talking for real. I doubt it but I would like to see it.
Wayne
5 years ago
I have just discovered Tyee. Sorry to have joined this discussion so late. There have been a lot of great points made, to counter the "official conspiracy theory" espoused by the Bush regime and the mass media. There is a not a lot that i could add at this point.
But, especially for those of you in the Vancouver / Lower Mainland area who have investigated it and now question 9/11 and wish to become active (attend discussion meetings, documentary showings, demonstrations, distribute free DVDs etc ...
Vancouver 9/11 Truth Movement has a new web presence on Tribe.net and you are invited to join us, and to share articles, info, comments etc. The group is growing rapidly.
http://tribes.tribe.net/vancouver911truthmovement