As long as brainwashed and crooked neoclassical economists have the power to force governments into self destructive policies, the future of farmland, or even of humanity, are very bleak.

The main culprit is the deregulated banking system, pumping incredible amounts of inflated, imaginary investment capital into the hands of the worst exploiters in history, completely distorting economic values and creating a fascist political system.

There's no point in shedding crocodile tears over the loss of farmland, or of human rights and the destruction of democracy, as long as this crap is being taught in our universities as "good economics".

The politicians are only puppets, following the orders of this new, pseudo priesthood, just as the kings in history followed the orders of their shamans reading the guts of sacrificial goats.

As their advertising agency, the Fraser Institute says, we can pave over all farmland, because we can import our foods
"cheaper". The problem is that there's no definition of what "cheaper" really means?

Ed Deak, Big Lake, BC.

Not a bad article. Given the fact that a lot of people just skim the text and then settle in to throw brickbats at each other around here, it is kind of strange that the editing sets up the article so the only bolded text referring to a political party in the whole article is this: NDP failure led to reform.

Now that may well be true, but it seems to me that an article about the present state of the ALR and ‘reform’ which ignores the fact that the NDP has been out of power for what is it - 6 years I guess - and doesn't make more of a case about the current government’s attitude toward development and the fact that the overall purview of the legislation has been diluted by the regionalization of the board's functions is making some kind of a political statement of its own.

Writing the headlines and setting up the section titles can be a political act too.

The readers ought to remember, come election time, who actually created the ALR.

Before I read an article - I learn figure out who is writing it. This guy was an editor of the Georgia Straight - enough said!

It is an okay city newspaper - a fine read at a coffee shop or while you are waiting for a movie....

However, it is not journalism and likely has the most left-wing editorials in the whole country.

The best part is - this guy has probably never picked up a shovel, yet he is going to tell us how to farm....

Get lost!

OK cap, what is your farming experience ?

Ed Deak.

Of course Cappy.

You wouldn't want to pay any attention to someone who wrote the Suzuki foundation report on reshaping the agricultural land reserve in the 21st century, would you? You klutz - you didn't even read Campbell's little bio at the end did you?

Still reading the racing news though, I'll bet! By the way, who is this ‘us’ you’re talking about? Most days the only other guy around here spouting your line is IAMC/Ron Erwin.

Pardon me if I’m not too worried.

Get rid of the creep gordo and his pocket-lining developer cronies and maybe, maybe you might stem the tide.

We welcome visitors at my family's farm, where I have a cottage, at 201 Staples Road, Saturna Island. You're particularly welcome during haying. As for 'NDP failure led to reform,' the point seems to me to be that good things can emerge from a breakdown in the system.

Charles Campbell,
I wasn't criticizing the words - just the bold format - editing is important too.

Particularly for those who don't read and are constantly looking for excuses to reinforce their prejudices. At least one bold heading that implied the BC Liberals aren't exactly the saviors of the Province's farmlands would have been nice, don't you think?

There's been a fair amount of criticism from ‘on high’ around here lately and I think it's time a few comments started to cut the other way.

Other than that, well done!

Next time I'm on Saturna I'll stop by.

Quote:

"I've always been against the ALR [Agricultural Land Reserve."

-- Liberal MLA and Agriculture Committee member Al Horning
----------------
As long as a few local insiders end up on the committees good farm land will disappear. Developers do have big pockets and are quite prepared to add a few locals into the pocket as well. Bell recently appointed a guy to a committee. A couple of night later the fellow was standing up at a public meeting recommending removal of some farm land. Somebody talked and Bell says" Oops he didn't know he was on the committee yet. He isn't any more.

The largest pieces of farm lands on the Sannich Peninsula with some stunning ocean views by court order as the two sons couldn't get along, was to be sold. That farm grows a larger amount of daffodils for the Cancer Society, and of course much other produce.It can be sold in pieces Up pops a company , from Switzerland with a deposit of 100,000. Nobody ever heard of that company before. Oh they intend to farm the land! Same day the report came out of UVic was the day the rest of the bucks were due.Around 29,900,000. A no show by the company.
A quick change of land from agricultural to houses and everyone would make a bundle.

A couple of farmers we know up the peninsula stated that if bought , the properties will soon be view lots. The farms are very productive, but that never stopped a developer with a few friends.

One fellow has been trying to get a lot of land up in the interior removed. I belive he's tried around 4 times so far. He will be back. as for treaty lands. It was the policy of the previous , awful to some, NDP government had a policy. Any additional lands picked up by a band would be subject to the ALR. Who knows what Gordo and his chums are planning. Some of the older set can remember Richmond along # 3 road had lots of berry fields. Not any more. And the folks at Barnstrom island will be back . Let's also never forget Wacky Bennett was reported as saying. What's the big deal, you can buy it cheaper from California.

Edited for possible libel. -- Tyee editor

... The ALR is one thing but who protects pristine wildnerness on private land?
(unfortuneatly I already think I know the answer to that question)

I find it strange that the provincial government is busy arranging land deals with First Nations for development purposes. It's one thing for them to give land back so they can live on it and keep it more or less in a natural state; it's quite another thing to give good farmland away solely as a cash cow for a small group of people to develop any way they want. It doesn't take the larger community into consideration at all.

If the giant billboards that are going to go up along Lower Mainland bridges are any indication, it doesn't look as though there are regulations on development for First Nations land.

It's ironic that we're talking about protecting large tracts of farmland.

In England, the 19th century innovation of enclosing individual landlords's "commons" into contiguous farms actually disenfranchised the poor people who were tilling the soil for subsistence. They went from small farmers to employees of a large farmm whereas the landlords became even wealthier.

Then, as now, the justification was "what is best for us all."

I think that farmers would be more ok with the ALR and the restrictive covenants on property, if there was actually some way that they could make money from farming. NAFTA has pretty much taken care of that.

Ron Yamauchi
I absolutely agree with you. If we value farmland and want to see it preserved, one of the most important things we can do is buy local produce even if it's much more expensive than imported and, overall, we have to be willing to pay a lot more for our food. France recognizes the value of its farmers - why doesn't Canada?

I agree with Ron as well. There is much more we need to do to encourage local small-scale local agriculture. The regulatory impediments are significant. Big farm industry operations hold too much sway over provincial policy. Look at the effect of mad cow, in which small producers paid a big price for the excesses of big ones. The distribution system is deeply problematic. Prices for quality local products are often unduly inflated by stores.
But we still have a lot of small owner-operated farms in B.C., so there's something to build on.
Farm subsidies are politically problematic, even though they exist in more ways than market-rules folks wish to acknowledge. But farms provide economic benefits to us that are not really acknowledged. They are our landscape's lungs. Well run, they can manage water in our deltas, they can provide wildlife habitat. Are there ways in which farmers can be compensated for these benefits? It's complicated, to be sure, but it's an interesting area of inquiry.

Ron, NAFTA and similar "free trade" treaties have nothing to do with trade. Their only purpose is the destruction of democracy and the establishement of ultimately global, fascist, corporate dictatorship, calling it "the equilibrium of the competitive global marketplace".

In other words "free trade" is "free booting" and the biggest crime wave in history.

As far farming is concerned, this "free trade" fraud is not only destroying the family farm in our so called "developed" countries, but establishes neocolonial, slavelabour based agriculture in the "underdeveloped" countries with the help of miseducated economists and pimp politicians.

Ed Deak.

One way this happens is with agricultural tax rates, which are often a fifth or less of non-agricultural property taxes. Being in the ALR does not guarantee ag tax rates, but does weigh in favor.

However, the rules for qualifying for ag taxes are narrow and onerous. If you have more than 10 acres, you must have farm income that is proportional to the value of your land, which is outrageous, given speculative land value pressure.

Also, derivative products do not count toward the income requirement! This is pure lunacy -- force the farmers to sell raw products, instead of value-added products! If I sell my raspberries for $2 a pint, that money counts toward the $2,500 I need to qualify for ag tax status. But if I put that same pint of raspberries into two jars of jam that I can get $10 for, that income does not count. Pure lunacy!

Another bit of stupidity -- income from "agricultural byproducts" does not count. So if you're a good little Permaculturalist, and derive multiple income streams from your product, it doesn't count. You can't count income from fertilizer derived from manure, and you're better off burning flax straw after harvesting than you are putting effort into making linen!

I'm sure there are tons of "hobby farmers" who exploit the ag tax rates, but there are also those of us who sincerely want to practice sustainable agricultural production, but are frustrated and stupefied by the myopic, mainstream-oriented regulatory environment regarding agriculture.

Byte...

I fully agree with everything you say about the inane and counterproductive rules for farm classification, as we had to go through the loops may times over the last 31 years.

Last year I even wrote a nasty letter to the Minister in charge, who was very apologetic and promised to simplify the process??????????? If you believe the words of a politician.

The easiest way to get through the loops is to write out invoices the way they will fit the requirements. After all, money is money and if that's what they want for proof, give them what they want.
As long as the income is declared nobody has the right complain.

In any case, the benefits received from farm class don't go anywhere near to cover the real costs. I'll be shipping my calves in 3 weeks and regardless what I'll get, I'll lose money on every one and every pound of meat. The middlemen need the profits and we the producers and the buying public are elected to hand it to them.

We have neighbours who are sitting on millions of dollars worth of land, with hundreds of heads of cattle, but they live under poverty levels, with their bodies ruined by scores of accidents.

My 78 year old wife was sent flying by a cow 8 weeks ago, ended up in the hospital for 4 days with a cracked pelvis, and can still hardly walk. Meanwhile the middlemen are filling their bank accounts with profits stolen from our pockets.

Hey, capitalism, how is this for "leftie" talk and ideas ?

Ed Deak.

Ed
I'd certainly defer to you on matters agricutural but I know you know a thing or two about the DOHA round too.

Anyway, if you've a mind, have a look at this:
http://www.gwynnedyer.net/articles/Gwynne%20Dyer%20article_%20%20Death%20of%20Doha%20Round.txt

Ed Deak
By the way, excuse me for being such a klutz - I was very sorry to hear about your wife's injury and I hope she's recovering well. All the best to you both.

Simplest thing is: DON'T BUILD ON AGRICULTURAL LAND!What's so hard to understand about that? BC has some 95% mountains and such, and the time has long since gone by that we must live where land may be farmed. Why not immediately ban any construction on existing ALR? People/developers can do the "infill" thing if they want to build on (former) farmland. new developments can take place in moountains, etc.

Agreed RickW, but there has to be some way to address other issues:
a) the death of the family farm; and
b) its replacement by corporate widget agriculture.
c) the fact that it is very difficult, under the current regime for small to medium size farms to be economic.

Did you read the piece from Gwynne Dyer?

If someone hasn't challenged the validity of the ALR in the Supreme Court on a charter challenge, I would be surprised. In fact I think there is such a case before the courts now.
If you want to see how flaky this legislation is, just imagine an Indian challenge to this stupid NDP idea.
All hell would break loose.
This ALR is unconstitutional.
If we need to protect agricultural land, let it be done with local OCP's, monitored by the appropriate Ministry.
We already don't have any property rites, so let's hope someone can get them for us with a Charter challenge to the ALR.
The ALR has destroyed the fortunes of many. Those people would have been okay in any other Province. Only BC has an ALR. Toast them.

Only BC has an ALR and that's a great pity. The other provinces, for once, have something about BC law that they can legitimately envy - besides Government Auto Insurance.

Alci, why do we have this anomaly? Is it because we had an NDP Govt.?
Canada shouldn't have such cross Provincial differences if we are one country.
I am all for Provincial powers when they make sense. But this ALR thing is not supported by the Charter. Have fun baby.

It is good to see people talking about farminmg issues because the best way to stay healthy, support the economy and protect the environment is to buy local food, especially food produced without the use of industrial inputs like petroleum based inputs.

Buy it right from the farmer and pay them more then you would pay for the same thing in the store.

All the knowledge on this site should be packaged to help others. The Gwynne Dyer article points out that the WTO process is dead and agriculture helped kill it - GOOD.
The Green Party of Canada recently passed a resolution to get out of NAFTA as well. These corporate supported trade deals have proven to be a complete failure.

You will not change restrictive agricultural tax laws until you get more of the population interested in the benefits of small scale local farmers. This is starting to happen but it can be hard for growers to hang in there in the mean time.

One option that is working in California and elsewhere, is to promote the use of local food for local schools. Right now the cheap food policy of industrial agriculture has low price as the most important criteria for food. Consumers, however, want quality factors like no pesticide residues and better taste. The more they understand about the benefits of local food, the more they are willing to pay and the more connections they will have to local growers.

In our area, local industrial farmers producing chemical drenched food are getting .15 per pound for apples but certified organic growers are getting .75 per pound and at the farmers market I gladly pay over 1.00 per pound for fruit from a trusted certified organic orchard where I did one of the annual inspections.

Consumer education will help small farmers get the price they deserve for their food - that is the best way to combat land being taken out of the ALR. We also need ot develop methods for transfering land from older growers to younger ones, again supported by an informed local consumer population.

We have the ALR because in the period 1972 - 1975 we actually had a progressive and farsighted government in this province. Because they understood the need to preserve and protect the small amount of easily cultivatable and fertile land in the province they passed legislation to protect it and prevent its use for purposes other than agriculture.

Even you Ron, should be able to imagine what the consequences would have been without the action of that government. God help us if we don’t get another decent government soon.

Any other questions?

A kilo of cheese will cost you $10.00 in the US and cost you $20.00 here.
Why?
Because Canada has a socialistic approach to the marketing of farm produce. Boards coming out of our ying yang protect a few Socialist Farmers ( SF ) mainly based is Saskatchewan ( David Orchard ) who are raping Canadian consumers in partnership with the Federal Govt. ( CBC, DN%IA< Canadian Wheat Bored ) types that are dinosaurs in the modern economy, in my opinion.
We must get motivated to adapt a free market system in Canada, because we sure as hell don't have it now.

We should be paying a lot more for our food so that farmers can make a decent living. You think it's going to be cheap to buy that crappy American cheese when all the local Canadian cheesemakers have gone out of business? The WTO says the Wheat Board is just fine - despite the American's claims.

What do you do for a living ROn? I think I'll go to your competition and see if I can get a better deal from them.

Free markets are for free-booters Ron, when it comes to food and the necessities of life - You can look it up.

There aren't that many farmers. It's stupid for 30 million Canadians be forced to pay high prices for food in order to support several thousand farmers.
In fact, the majority of farmers want out of this Socialistic nightmare.
We have a marketing board controlling our entire foo chain.
FU marketing boards.

It's stupid to say such selfish and narrowminded things. 'FU' may also qualify as prohibited speech Ron - better be careful - you're on notice.

Thank you, Charles Campbell, Alcibiades, Ed Deak and others who value that which has been created by nature and that which truly feeds us. I don't believe that we have evolved for millions of years to push ourselves out of the garden that has sustained and allowed us to become abstract thinkers. I speak only metaphorically (not religiously) when I say the garden of Eden still exists for all to enjoy. We take ourselves out of the garden when we abuse or waste it.

Thanks for farming/ranching, Ed. I am sorry to hear your bride has been injured. I hope both, she and you, still find working with the land (and animals thereon) a joy, and not a toil that must be endured. My family has six hundred years of farming history behind it and I am feeling the pull back to the land: daunting though it seems to have to work every day.

All summer, I've pretty much lived off the farm market just across the Englishman River bridge at Parksville. My god, the cherries, almost too big to get into the mouth! The raspberries, day after day of heavenly nectar. Blueberries, strawberries, watermelon ... and then there are the veg., new little potatoes, tender beets, tiny carrots, big vivid lettuce ...

But like life itself, somebody valued it differently, and said to me, "But it's so expensive!" Jeezly Jeez, I replied mildly, "How many more times in my life will I lay eyes upon fresh-picked raspberries? How can money compare?"

(Truth is, meat is a damsite more expensive ... and there's no joy there.)

How I dread the coming battles amongst the citizenry -- some wishing to preserve the farmland, the water, the planet ... while "others" wish to capitalize on its sale and re-sale.

It's fresh-picked, sun-warmed raspberries vs. screaming freeways. The developers will win, of course; they, after all, own the means of production.

But When the final deal is struck and the final dollar accrued, what's for supper, eh? What's that you say? California veg? Uh oh. California will run out of farmland too. Then what's the day's menu?

Logic won't matter. Rational debate won't work. The avid must reap and rape until there's not a tree, not a leaf, not a raspberry left. They'll never learn -- until it's too late -- that life isn't about money.

Mary, you are out to lunch, again. We are not those that would would rape the land. On the contrary, we are those that get the best out of the land, and leave it in good enough shape to repeat the performance.
You are typical of the left. Instead of going out into the world and stopping all of the real problems, you only are interested in your own backyard.
How does that make you any better than those Capitalist Pigs you are so fond of criticizing.

I thought a lot of this was covered when Rafe Mair wrote about the ALR last month.

Having taken time recently to vacation in much of rural/ ALR BC.....and seeing the basic "seasonal" choice of corn, blueberries.....a bit of ginseng.......hay, and also beef..poultry etc. as the the main agricultural output in the Fraser Valley, Cariboo,and Kamloops area....I discussed this " Politics of Agricultural with a nephew at a family re-union who is at University in Europe.

He cited statistics that the European Union(EU) budgets 30% of its ENTIRE budget towards Agriculture aka farming ie " farmers" ...who makes up less than 1/2 a percent of the EU population.

Much of this is directed to farm = farmer subisidies, or Gov't purchases of commodities to maintain price levels...etc. In other words,... like much of politics in general .....somewhat detached from reality and serious lack of responsible use of power and fiscal resources .

There are likely many reasons for this subsidy....but one very likely one is this " feed ourselves" motherhood issue...national pride ...." sky is falling" fear.etc.

Also heard a Grain farmer interviewed on the radio who stated " CANADA AS THE WORLD'S BREAD BASKET" will lose ground...the 3rd World is now becoming more and more self sufficient...another blow to our farmers.....then what....???

This " ALR = Sacred Cow" issue loses all credibility when we compare it to say the auto industry...why didn't the 1972 NDP make us self - sufficient in autos and not reliant on external supplier ???

Why not make ourselves self - sufficient in Computers..TV's ..Steel....French Wine....Oil and gas...ie Offshore exploration ie E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G !!!!.

Food is like any other commodity ..IF it is viable and IF it can be produced locally AND provide a reasonable return..THEN it will survive....

Farming is a business, not a charity...(don't ask me..ask a farmer ) ....and it's not society's place to tell someone what career to be forced to choose that they have to provide charity to the benefit of others, which is what the ALR really is all about.

If that's the case...a farmer should be able to fight a Supreme Court case , and funding their legal fees bartering X chickens and Y sheep....ie the given profession ie Lawyers should offer proportionally cheaper fees.....instead of all this ALR BullShit that society has bought hook...line...and CIL lure....

PS Most would fail a pop quiz on the ALR and the ALC Act....yet talk like PhD " experts" ...

I can't see this present system existing anymore, now that the ' cat's out of the bag ', it's a fact that we taxpayers are paying an inflated rate for the basics. Bread, milk, cheese, eggs, chickens.
The reason we are doing this is unexplainable. Thirty million people paying double for commodities because of a special interest group so small ( I have excluded farmers who support my point of view ) that it borders on the ridiculous.
Farming technology is so far ahead of when we designed these stupid bureaucracy's. Yield now is far ahead of any values that existed when the original regulations where designed.
It's always hard to adjust to new times.

I think all of the capitalists who want it to be just like the USA in BC should just move to the USA.

Once again the lies fly thick and fast. Check out the data on the proportion of the average industrial wage spent on food in this country in comparison with most other countries Ron, as always you don't know what you're talking about. And you're talking through your hat.

Do you get a bonus for lies?

The conditions that punish the poor, as I posted above ( high prices>double> and rising<.) Commodities priced above their budget, is a far more important than supporting a small group of Saskatchewan misguided ?? I can't even call them socialist, they are somewhat corporate themselves.
There is no reason we need to be ripped off anymore.
Power to the poor that they can continue to be served at a very reasonable level by the Wall*Mart type model.
Change is good. Let the poor in. Give them a good deal. The rich man will also buy, which will make us all a big customer, who has some clout.
Some of us don't care about the price of a jar of peanut butter, or a loaf of bread. But there are many that do.

Farming is a business that loses money because consumers do not see the importance of why 97% of the populations should care to support the 3% that farms.

In almost 30 years of working in agriculture in various capacities from spraying weeds to selling pesticides to soil research to the last 15years doing organic inspections, I have been to hundreds and hundreds of farms and sat down at many kitchen tables and studied many research reports and tried to garden and as a consumer have spent a great deal of time understanding the food system my conclusion is that people finally are starting to be interested in farmers.

Food is not like any other commodity and farming is more a way of life then just a business. Agriculture is the beginning of culture but I am not interested in convincing people about the truth of this fact. My focus is on providing people with a real way to make a difference by moving away from the cheap food policy of industrial agriculture towards quality food from local growers and processors that will support the health of our children, our economy and our local environment.

The ALR is not a simple issue and it is a tremendous service to society to have such an article that touches on these complexities. All over the province people are starting to come up with creative solutions to food and farming issues.

IAMC may be able to thrive on cheap, dead food from California and stroll down to the ocean and dip his cup in there for a drink of sea water. Like a Canada Thistle plant that shakes off it's dose of ROUNDUP herbicide, he seems to thrive on insults and always returns with something to say.
BC Mary, your actions are part of a growing number of people and that is where there is hope, right in our own backyard.

Maestro, the ALR is not charity but rather wisdom. Like Will Rogers said -BUY FARMLAND, THEY'RE NOT MAKING ANYMORE OF IT. Condos and developments are a dime a dozen and all the high prices ones will be selling for a steep discount when property values crash as they are doing right now in the USA. The idea that we do not need farmers or that they are like lawyers or doctors is funny - it takes at least 20 years to learn how to be a farmer but only 15 to be a brain surgeon and less to be a lawyer. Farmers are far more valuable then most other people in society ( except for mothers ).
After struggling for years they just want to sell their land and then what, retire to Victoria or Kelowna? Surprise, they get to pay for a sewage treatment plant in Victoria or wait for 5 hours in the emergency ward in Kelowna before being treated in the hallway because there are no beds.

Every acre of farmland that is paved over reduces the future benefits for BC children, every food item that comes in from California helps shrink the BC economy and helps increase the epidemic of chronic diseases in BC.

People may dismiss these heated ramblings of mine, fine do so but actions speak louder then words. I challenge all doubters to go down to your local farmers market and buy some local food then tell me it is not worth it.

Well, it is getting late and work comes early tomorrow but let the dialogue continue. The articles on the TYEE are fantastic and this one on the ALR is just excellent.

rob
don't waste your efforts on Ron Erwin (IAMC), he is a notorious troll know-nothing. He wouldn't have the slightest idea, for example, that many cereal grains currently sell for prices about as same as they were in the 1920s - and that's not in adjusted dollars.

He doesn't know that we have some of the cheapest and best and freshest food in the world and that our farmers are so productive, on average, that they are racing each other to the bottom of the heap.

He's not worth a moment of your time.

I expected a debate. I don't see any sense in engaging in a emotional exchange about " Who has seen the wind " by W.O. Mitchell.
In my opinion we can all enjoy the best of both worlds.
The fact (???) that G West claims about the price of grain being what it was in the 20's is fictional. I urge all sensible viewers of this site to think about the poor.
The subsidized agricultural policies in Europe, results in millions of dead Africans.
Why does the left here not look at the atrocities of the EU?

Ron you don't know a thing about the price of wheat. Some of the poorest people in this country are prairie farmers who grow the grain for your bread and muffins.

DO you have any idea how much a feeder heifer brings at auction and how much it takes to get it to market?

There are sensible people here - you just don't happen to be one of them. Troll off - Ezra Levant is having a writing contest to raise funds for his legal problems. WHy not go drop a few entries in his in-box?

Giantartificialmonkey and a few other TYEE commentators are coming much closer to the truth re: the ALR.....

RE: the First Nations agreements involving ALR Land...suffice it to say it will not involve NON ALR Land...as this is generally much more expensive land ....thus the West End, Yaletown... and Expo site etc. is safe, as ALR land is almost always THE cheapest land ....

GOOD VIABLE farmland ,....which also happens to be in the ALR( NOTE: ALR is NOT 100% synonymous with good viable farmland ... BUT ALR land IS 100% synonymous with cheap land via its "current" agri- zoning .....but ALR Land is now on the table for Land Claims negotiations if the ALR Land is in the Crown's ownership....)

There, " interestingly enough ", seems to be a very muted outcry by the usual ALR supporters over this "First Nations both (i) acquire and (ii) develop ALR land" issue , perhaps this confusion is via fears of being accussed of " racist leanings " actually trumps any/all socialist leanings,...aka ignorance and hypocrisy...???

In addition ,...The save -the -world Environmentalists allies of the ALR supporters are similarly also now up against having once been victorious in limiting or outright stopping logging in various areas of BC....at least to non First Nations groups....but these same environmentalists have either all along known .....or found out recently,... that some First Nations groups have both (i)the legal rights and (ii) the plans for these previously "saved lands" that most certainly do not include preserving the trees etc. ie pro- logging ...not tourism.

Perhaps the First Nations groups should be looked at as another indicator of NOT interested in farming if they do acquire ALR Lands ....but they , as sophisticated investors, see the fiscal return in farming as L-O-W....but instead as sophisticated investors see the better return on current ALR designated land in Non - agricultural ventures, which will be their apparent legal right if they choose, and all indicators are that they will pursue these non -agricultural options.

However,....Gov'ts truly show their inconsitency and incompetence...ie cheap sleazy "du jour" politics.....we will have one class of ALR owner which Gov'ts will actually go overboard in assisting to exclude from the ALR ,and then all the rest of those in the ALR who will find exact opposite treatment. Rest assured, once Gov'ts negotiate with First Nations for ALR Land..there is absolutely NO intention to farm form the very start ...its simply cut a deal ...sell low....maximize the non agri-potential...aka = printing $$$$$$ money

The ALR seems to be a dry land version of the Federal Fisheries ....one big fiasco......totally mismanaged......now all are scrambling....an unpredictable monster now on the loose.

As many of us who have taken the time to do our homework and researched the ALR( and as also one-time knee-jerk ALR supporters till we owned some ) ...the ALR has nothing to do with farming.....its best called Fill-in-the-blank _________LAND RESERVE.....now the blank is being filled in with " First Nations Compensation Mechanism ".

Stay Tuned

I told you this would all break down, didn't I?
The ALR is not going to pass through our Charter of Rights.

I knew it wouldn't be long before you showed up maestro. How's it going?

Haven't been on this blog for a couple of days. Just a few words on the idiocy that people in Canada pay more for products than in the USA because of "Canadian socialistism".

I can sell you any amount of the best organic beef for $3. or 3.50 a pound, but there's no market for it, while people are paying jerks like Pattison $10. or up to $20 for the same cuts. This is socialism Canadian style.

My wife's parents were living in Portland Ore. and we used to visit them several times a year. In the '60s the Canadian Dollar was .05 to .10 cents higher than the US. Yet, the same items that cost say, $10. at Sears in Portland, used to cost $15. or $20. in Vancouver, while the border duties were only about $1. or $2.

One day I saw a beautiful, down filled sleeping bag for $19.50 US in a Portland store and while I was waiting to pay for it, I realized that it was made by Jones Tent and Awning in Vancouver, one of the worst sweatshops , my wife was working in, in the '50s, so I took it back to the shelf.

The company used to have a store on Water St. at the time, so I went there and found the same sleeping bag for $65. Can,
or close to $70. US at the time.

I asked the manager, why, but he had no answer. I wrote to the company, but no answer. I wrote to the Minister of Trade, who wrote back 2 pages of garbage. That was before the FTA, NAFTA, so there were duties on products imprted from Canada.

The simple fact is that our Canadian and imported carpetbagger "free enterprisers", have always been and are cheating and robbing the public.

So, if some of our ideologically brainwashed fools are blaming Canadian "socialism", they should go up to the British Properties and ask Jimmy, how much markup his Save on Foods put on products they buy for next to nothing to Canadian farmers? The same for Safeway and every damn bloodsucking supermarket and chainstore in the coountry.

What we need are more "socialistic" price controls on markups and accountability to the public on how it is being robbed blind. The insurance companies are the best examples and if any government ever tries to privatize ICBC I'm ready to pick up a gun.

The prices I'll be getting for my calves are decided by the conspiracy of a few multinational "free enterprisers" in the USA. So much for "socialism" you poor fools.

Ed Deak.

You have encapsulated Canadian history very nicely, Ed!

I would like to do business with you. I just have to figure out how to get around the simple fact that I am on Vancouver Island, and you're not........

Hi G West.....

It's going very well, thanks for asking how's it going with you...

I'm enjoying the " sparring match " between you and IAMC.

However, objectively speaking, the quasi - Marquess of Queensberry rules for on-line debates do imply anonymity, so I don't see it kosher or fair as identifying someone by name unless THEY first choose to do so...For all you know I am Dave Barrett or some other NDP member seeking redemption as Father Time ticks on......much like Dr. Frankenstein's ill - fated attempt with his creation/s...

I actually come from a generation where almost everyone had a back - yard garden in the 1960s' , produced a lot of food in - house ,...and bought from farmers when they were into canning, etc. ...Very rare now...society has changed....These ex urban ' " farmers" have cashed out....now with the ALR equate it with food production???...almost every jurisdiction with ALR land has a high % of ALR land that is not farmed...GEE why not ??? and its not due to the NDP's " cry wolf" of evil speculators .

ALR reminds me of TEA trade....it was the British etc. craving for the necessity (???) of TEA and Spices that had them " travelling and conquering " far off lands 1000's of miles away to acquire these supposed necessities,...imposing their tastes and all the consequences that came with it onto OTHER world citizens...maybe this was the ALR model...." we'll tell you what to do with what USED to be your land ".

Debates are often best when FACTS are presented, not prevented.
IAMC keeps hinting about bigger and more over-riding laws and legislation. Look on-line and see the correlations.....that's how much of the law works...

The ALR has gotten so reality bypassing politicized by whoever is in power, Left - Wing and Right - Wing, that it will ultimately implode. Re First Nations land claims,....you ain't seen nothing yet when the ALR property owners iceberg looms and grows, not at all melts...and this could be an even bigger mess that society will have NO CHOICE but to deal with, regardless of THE TYEE debates...and those in Gov't know it...

TO: IAMC ( by the way...you do add very much to the debate ...many thanks...and NO...I don't think we are related ...and I do have many " left- wingers " in my family )...........You are hinting about such things as the " mobility provisions " in the over - riding FEDERAL LAWS,.... aren't you ???

Ciao...(and " chow " )

Hello maestro.
Ron Erwin(IAMC) - there's history there, believe me - expressing any concern for the poor is disingenuous. Trust me.

As to my point of view I've no doubt the ALR needs changing and improving and you already know I'm a strong and thoroughgoing supporter of succeesful farmers and a healthy and growing agricultural sector - and, taken at least party from your earlier posts - a rationalization of relations between municipalities and regional districts and the objectives of agricultural land restrictions and the like.

As long as the principle doesn't get diluted and thrown out with the bath water and we end up with pavement from Richmond to Hope. WHich is what Ron really wants so he can chew his American cheese to his hearts content.

To: FIAT LUX

Hope your wife is healing up well...

Your arguments are valid, but what are the options...???

Can you sell on the open market ???

Can any bulk commodity sell on the open market ???.

My wife has a B.Comm. and did a study as an undergrad on Marketing Boards. She talked to a Major Local farmer and concluded the benefits of Marketing Boards overall outweigh the disadvantages. It's basically all about creating stability and predictability .

I am sure that not every Oil well has the exact same cost of production......probably some cost very little compared to others, but there is the "world price" benchmark that sets the viability reference .

I do agree there is a lot of backroom chicanery, but my belief is that it is mostly due to Gov'ts and their policies.

EXAMPLE: I know a person who I will call "D" who works for one of Vancouvers major commercial property owners... The family partriarch once was a major residential developer...

In the 1950's and 1960's this partriarch -developer built what were still acknowledged as good solid (non- leaking) homes under the old Federal Gov't CMHC rules...

However, "D" told me recently that this now ex-developer got into hot water with the CMHC back then...

So.....What was his " CMHC sin " ???

Apparently, the patriarch - developer was selling his houses TOO CHEAP (ala on par with Henry Ford and the Model T mass production methods )...he built them well, but efficiently, and yet still make a profit....and thus pass on the savings to home purchasers .

However, because the Gov't via the CMHC was involved,...this patriarch- developer was apparently selling their homes for approx. $ 1000 less than similar homes in EASTERN Canada, all other things being equal, and was told to up their price to match the Eastern Canada CMHC ones....This was probably at a time that these homes, mostly bungalows, were selling for say $12,000, .....and $1000 extra was a LOT of money for a working family in the 1950's and 1960's .

In my view,....rather than giving this local developer a medal...and perhaps the CMHC learning from this local developer ....and perhaps ALSO benefitting Eastern Canadians,..the message was instead screw everyone equally.......or cover -up incompetent Eastern builders????...versus benefit everyone via someone's positive and pro-active insight etc.

We are seeing this with our RAV/Canada Line....same old Political BullShit subsidizing a technology most of the world has said " No Thanks" ...

I think the conclusion is that the trail starts with Gov't policies etc. meet Gov't politics re: any/all local prices etc... Life would actually be easier if Jimmy P. was running the show...then he could be held more accountable. What we have is faceless bureaucrats and " du jour" politicians creating bandaid self-serving economic etc. policies "in our best interests" trust- us BS mode.

Start there...then go after Jimmy if the evidence is there...Jimmy basically reacts to the Gov't playing field ( notice I left out the adjective "Level" playing field )...

After his $1 year Expo 86 stint , there was a movement to have Jimmy run for Premier....I recall he thought about for about 1 second... and Jimmy said NO THANKS,...and probably said NO mostly due to all the convoluted mind - numbing soul - selling BullShit in Gov't.

Jimmy, when asked years ago about charity and contributing , said he creates local jobs,...which implies is a greater societal contribution than charity, though he has donated gave millions recently .

As the world turns , but the trail almost always starts and ends up in Gov't......

G West:

Actually we are both on the same page, we all have to eat, etc.... but the ALR was the legislated equivalent of Thalidomide which will create a huge mess in the not- too- distant future. If the original conception was poor, the consequences will both eventually and inevitably become very clear.

I have archival documents about the same time the ALR ws being created....and the NDP was trying to convince farmers in the early 1970's they would somehow be "looked after" ie compensation in return for inclusion....
Famous NDP farmer Dave " BINGO" Stupich was the Agricutlural minister then. A comment at the time by a local farmer was "Protiect FARMland ???.... what about protecting the FARMER" I think the farmers were lead along with a handshake deal....and we all know those are not worth the paper they are written on" .

I really saw nothing that ever balanced this ALR creation's cost with a legislated equal benefit ...as landowners ultimately bore the sole cost of the ALR inclusion. The NDP at the time had the chanted mantras of windfall profits....which to me indicates a petty social engineering divide and conquer class warfare agenda.

The NDP was in such haste to create it they only looked at one side of the ledger...subsequent Gov'ts left it alone mostly on liability, not merit.....or should I say DELAYED laibility

As stated last month, many jurisdictions have NO ALR lands....and are doing very well....Why wasn't this addressed with a share the pain and gain equally ???

I would "bet the farm" that the ALR Model will be a huge liability to Gov't's in the future....a legal case is pending, but will blaze the trail for many many more.

If we agree the ALR as THE Model to save agriculture is seriously flawed...the unfortunate thing is that like any bad policy, it will boomerang and kill farming. Gov't is in a very precarious situation right now...it is not well known right now.

If you own it, and ownershipo is 9/10 of the law...you control it....The ALR model worked if Gov't has chosen to buy farmland , thus public owns it ( much like parkland ) and lease it out....end of argument.

In my view....there should be out clauses,...The GVRD made a big case about keeping Barnston Island in the ALR. Do they give a shit about farming....NO...they have other agendas,...Perhaps the GVRD, as they abuse their powers and tax everything, should have a levy so that say North Shore,New West , Vancouver and Burnaby pay and ALR levy....so that "Farmers' errrr people in the ALR (who also actually pay sewer levies yet have no sewers) are paid NOT to grow houses, condos,etc....or paid super subsidies for their crops ie $300 per ounce for blueberries....

Will this EVER happen??? Of course not...but this indicates the sheer and total hypocrisy by many ALR fans who equate the ALR with saving farmland....and thinking a piece of paper signed by a bunch of mostly NON- farmer 1972 NDP ers = food on the table.

IAMC is till providing facts.....I almost wonder if he is looking over my shoulder...can't see much UNtrue in what he says, regardles of what his past, present and future agendas are or percieved to be.

If we want to save farmland and agriculture ie " the FARMER" ...lets wipe out the ALR and start fresh...and ASAP....The ALR is the equivalent of the SPCA calling cancer a species that needs protection....

PS..enjoy the local harvests...they are coming to a conclusion very soon...then back to either Greenhouse or IMPORTED Foods from our "evil" southern etc. neighbours ...

I finally figured it out. Some folks are dead against the ALR because Little Fat Dave brought it in during the 70's. The same folks don't mention that between then and now the Socred's ran this province and pretty well left the ALR alone. Up pops Gordo and the meddling with the ALR and so many other long established things started to go sideways. It's more about, those other guys were at fault. Sort of reminds me of a recent column in a Interior newspaper by Kruger, Liberal backbencher who was bragging about how much better things are now that Gordo is in power. The statistics he was using were nowhere near reality. A simple look at Stats Canada figures showed he was full of it. It was classic BS. One wonders if kevin is writing stuff here as well, and getting it wrong as usual

Maestro, I can sell my stock on the open market, because beef have no marketing boards, but there are no buyers.

Our beef is butchered and cut to specs in a government inspected facility, frozen and can be shipped anywhere. But, around here we have no buyers and as we're just small producers and don't have the time, energy, or wish to get into big sales campaigns.

So, we sell our organic calves at the auction sales and they're pumped full of antibiotics, hormones and steroids as they're loaded on the buyers' trucks on their way to the feedlots. People are brainwashed and prefer to go to the supermarkets and pay through the nose for junkmeat full of chemicals, then they're surprised when their kids are fat pigs.

Ther's no government involvement in beef raising and sales. It is a racket, controlled by a few multinationals, as are most food sales all over the world.

Sorry, I can only spend a few minutes a day on this machine.

Incidentally, I became interested in economics around 1978, when the Vancouver Sun had a page 6 article by an SFU economics professor: "Abolish the ALR, it makes no economic sense". It was so full of idiotic nonsense that it shocked me into starting to study the subject and by 1985 I broke the whole neoclassical market capitalist theory to pieces, as the biggest fraud and crime wave in human history.

That was 21 years ago and things have gone from bad to worse since then, now threatening the survival of the human race, as we know it. Anybody who supports this economic system is either a fool, or a crook, yet it is beig taught in universities all over the globe, impoverishing and destroying people by the millions, and the environment, without any questions by governments and the public.

E.g. there was the case of the old guy, who shot his wife and himself in the Penticton hospital. In neoclassical terms his action was beneficial to the economy, as they were "non producers", their pensions were considered "socialistic waste" and their funeral and other expenses are contributing to the GDP.

And this is the crap our governments are pushing as "wealth creating economics".

Ed Deak.

One more comment on Pattison's $1. Expo job, somebody mentioned above. Like all neocon policies and actions, that too was a fraud by a neocon government.

I wrote an open letter in our local papers to our Socred MLA, Neil Vant, at the time, requesting an explanation, but there wasn't any. The same as the actions of our present Socred/Reform governments.

Jimmy got paid when the Zalm government sold Beautiful BC magazine to him for $500,000. The magazine had a $500,000 yearly profit at the time , going into public revenues, and carried no advertising.

It now carries advertising, which means that Jimmy drew at least $10. million from that sale during the past 18 years, coming out of the taxpayers' pockets.

I've never heard before, or since, of any business being sold for the sum of one year's profits, which means that it had to be a prearranged deal.

When you look at the "help wanted" ads for his supermarkets, he only wants part timers, apart from a skeleton base, because he would have to pay benefits to full timers.

Wealth can not be created, only taken and this is how you "make" $4.5 billion.

Ed Deak.

Didn't know about Beautiful BC Mag and Jimmy Pattison. Thanks, Ed. I guess that was just a prelude of what the recycled Socreds/Liberals have been doing with the privatizing of virtually everything that belonged to the people of BC. I'll order some beef from you, Ed, if you can ship it.

Sharing, I didn't intend to do any marketing on this blog and my apologies if it seemed so. In any case, we had to reserve butchering time last Spring for Oct. and can not process more than we ordered. Our calves will go to the feedlots on Sept.14 to be chemicalized and "marbled", so people can pay through the nose in the supermarkets for the junk and get nice and fat.

Thanks for the thought, cheers, Ed.

Ed, as far as I have read, you have set yourself a very high ethical standard to which to live - and you do it. You seem to be a very virtuous person. I never thought you to be "marketing", I only hoped I had found an opportunity to purchase the type of meat my wife and I wish my family to eat and to get some from a person whom I trust and admire. If it could have aided your prosperity, so much the better!

Locally, I buy organically grown bison. One lean bison burger at lunch and I am barely hungry at dinner - so it costs a bit more than beef from the store, but I eat less and feel more sated. I believe I am way ahead, when one considers I am not eating unnecessary antibiotics, saturated fat nor steroids.

Maybe we could work out a deal for next year. Unlike this government, I am into long term planning for those in my care.

Sharing,,, drop me a line offlist and let's see what we can do. Just go to google and type in my name.

Cheers, Ed.

Rob,
Thanks for your thoughtful comments, really enjoyed reading what your wrote. Agriculture is NOT like every other business.

There's a quote I like:
the market is a great servant, but a poor partner and a terrible master.

Markets exist to serve society, not the other way around.

Off The Radar, I appreciate the positive comments and you are correct in noting that the markets are terrible masters.

Markets have stopped working because giant corporations and their bought and paid for governments have rigged the game in their favour. They have a narrow focus on profits but at the expense of farmer's and consumer's. Conventional agriculture, especially through the use of genetically engineered crops, is also doing great harm to the environment. Therefore it is not sustainable.

Buying local food from family farms that produce within your bioregion is the best way to save BC farmland, support the health of our children and ensure there is an environment for future generations.

The ALR, with all the political & corruption issues so well outlined in the article and by many posts, is only a stop-gap until enough people become aware of the importance of supporting local farmers who use biological methods of food production. We need to help young farmers get the land they need and transfer it from older farmers before the developers pave it all over!!

Consumer education is required to help people understand the complex issues around food production. This article is part of that process.

Rob:

Good points...

I find the Farmland issue like the political equivalent of " canary in the mine" meets " WW II war BIG LIE propoganda ".

The ALR = Farmland = BIG LIE sadly exposes the politics... and the brainwashing. The Left Wing facets never really gets it...too bad...and their belief in it negatively affects the decision- making process into "head in sand" mode...

Simple Leftie formula :

(i)ALR = 100% FARMLAND . (WRONG!!!)

(ii)Removal from ALR = Evil capitalism and windfall profits.

Shuts down any discussion...Gov'ts see it as political suicide, nothing about the truth and thus "turtle".

Hypocrisy is most pro ALR live on EX farmland...before the ALR was created...

100 acre parcels of ALR land in my town are going for $10 Million...the market set the price ...not the farmer...

The farmer, call them "old McDonald Sr." looks at McDonald Junior and says...got $10 million???? its yours...Ma and I want to retire after this serf like existence keeping lettuce and cabbage prices low for society.

McDonald Junior says his 6/49 ticket didn't win...again....and anyway he has his MBA now and says to dad McDonald senior...lets instead take the $10 million (after taxes) and invest in this instead.

That's called times have changed...

The ALR is like the Pine Beetle tree kill...its all coming to pass..it was simply delayed..yet ultimately inevitable.

Solution???

Get rid of the ALR...and start fresh...Local Gov'ts have zoning control...Many in the GVRD have no ALR Land....yet preach about it...more self serving Hypocrisy.....

Again...its a mess...and only getting worse.

Rob:

To expand/clarify the last comment/s..( sorry, a bad TYEE habit.....many others don't seem to get simple points...).

We all know that since 1972....BC's population have grown big time and most live in this small SouthWest corner of BC in the GVRD. This creates both added supply and demand pressures and thus ever increasing NON ALR and ALR land value differentials.

Most Local Gov't have,since 1972 in Darwinian fashion...adapted around the ALR .... in fact it suits their agendas...

They are leaving certain needs etc. on the shelf...and when the time is ripe....dipping into the ALR.

Some are now getting caught... They have planned around the ALR = ____Land Bank...34 years of planning around the ALR yet taking a 12 gauge to it when the time is ripe(farming ???hahahaha !!! )....Cheap and helps balance the books .

AGAIN...the time is now over-ripe...You ain't seen nothing yet...