WHY-Jehovah's Witnesses don't do Christmas

I was born Jehovah's Witness 1957 3rd generation.Yup,we didn't celebrate Christmas and were miserable the rest of the year too.

The reason JW's don't do Christmas is because their Watchtower leaders say so,the holiday has pagan aspects to it and by rejecting it the Watchtower appears "pure".

This "demand for purity" is one of the 8 marks of a cult.NOW the Watchtower can use this purity diversion to distract from their own practice of immoral acts and false prophecys.--Danny Haszard 'expert witness on the Jehovah's Witness'

An excellent article:

We have two kinds of Christmas: The one that's built one truth, and the one that's built on a lie.

The truth shouts, "There's snow on the ground... life has taken a holiday and so should we. It's time for family and to count our blessings... to be generous if we can... to love one another and to have goodwill towards all sons and daughters of the father, including the baby Jesus.

The lie shouts, "Dec. 25th is the day the baby Jesus was born. Max your cards in the name of good will (with a povertous January to come) and give and recieve (when some have no families by appointment or elect). Cut down your trees and help the retailers with their cash cow and the manufacturers with their love affair of plastic and paint for the good the world and our children.

But the truth doesn't stop where the lie ends. It keeps on going. The best guess we now have is with the birth of Jesus being born on April 17, 6 B.C.. The Roman Calandar inaccuracies, the Magi witnessing of a cosmic event (the lunar elcipse of Jupiter "the planet of kings" by the moon) on this date, the coins of the day, the Bible's book of Matthew, and the census taken by the Romans of this time, all speak the voice of the prophets of old.
It is no secret that the Godess Mirthra was born on Dec. 25th. It is no secret that the Magi, with the company of Magi old testament heavyweights Isaiah and Daniel, told it straight... with wise words of endorsment from the last of the age of stone. For we have the bull and the lamb, those who come by the way Christ, and those who come the way of Zorastian roots.

"Ah, but Zorastian roots from Persia is a cult!" shouts the Christian right, the one and the same who shouts "The bible is perfect, letter for letter, and so is our interpretation allowing us to lead morality against the evils of the world to proclaim that Christianity is superior to all of the rest". History speaks for itself for it is the superiority complexed rulers and followers that butchered our friends for all of those centuries past...
We had a holy man grace us with his wisdom, teaching us the truths of Freedom, peace and love, with complaint from another cult and a Roman empire that was the worst enemy to everything this holy man taught, slaughtering this holy man and those who would write about him and the innocent followers of his council, 52 million over 300 years according to the church of Rome. Is it wise to know the origins to this "son of man" and his enemies? All things come full circle.

And our bible, proclaimed by the Christian right to be complete and without flaw... ignoring the truths in the book of Enoch, and the Aremic "Gosphel of the infancy"... among others written by the Apostles, for they were schooled by a master of masters and threatened the might of Rome, challenging Rome with their swords of truth.

And the bull (Magi), sharing the thrones of power for 8 short years, only to be butchered by our Rome's state married Roman Catholic Church... let the dark ages begin.

Who were the Magi? Who were these astrologers who believed in life after death, the resurrection, a prophesy of perfection to come in a world of peace that we do not yet know? Who were these wise men, who believed in the messiah 'king of kings'? These men who knew the meaning to the words "FIRE", in one God of light at war with an evil spirit of darkness? Zorastians, Astrologers of the same fold as Isahiah and Daniel... of the same fold as Pythagrius and his ringed 5 point star of Solomon?

Know the truth when you here it. Make straight the way of the lord. Repent, for the day of the lord is at hand. For I come to you with a shield in my left hand and a sword in my right and offer them to you freely. Use them wisely and you'll be remembered. Use them foolishly, and you'll be forgotten...

While I more than agree on principle, it is a fact that the commercial Xmas (abbreviation pointedly secular) accounts for roughly 20-25% of annual business for most retailers. It will take far more than a return to basics to calm the frenzy, given the stakes (entire economies) and the sheeplike public that are involved.

Namaste...

Good article!

I could not agree more!

I like being a part of Christmas in Asia. The Christians celebrate it like it originally was intended, a religious holiday. And I don't get bombarded by commercialization!
Plus, I can say "Merry Christmas" and/or "Happy Holidays" to Asians and foreigners alike and no one yells at me!

Kevan Hudson

I've set aside the entire month of December to do as I please; it's one of the benefits of being let go with a severance. I may do the same for January, as well. Merry Christmas!

I don't like the mass control excercised by religion - keep it simple - live and let live and treat other people the way you would like to be treated and we would have a much better world. period.

Hey, Scrooge is my hero! Great guy, didn't celebrate Christmas, that is, until those Victorian Marketers changed his mind. I like his idea's on workhouses and surplus population's.

Christmas has morphed, like Haloween, from a Children's day to an Adult's day, why? Simple Adult's will spend far more on themselves, than on children.

How important is Christmas? Most stores live or die on Christmas sales and those phoney Boxing day and New Years day sales! If a store can't give me the right deal all year round, I don't shop there.

Bah Humbug to all!

Mathew 5 vr 10 "Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." to bad the new right christians don't take note of any of the other beatitudes

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4. "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
5. "Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.
6. "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
7. "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
8. "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
9. "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
10. "Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11. "Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me."

lets see some one post those in front of a court house!

Like Kevan Hudson above,i am in Malaysia for Christmas.

Malaysia as you may know is largely an Islamic and Buddist state, but it is truly amazing how they create a wonderful xmas atmosphere here.

Politically correct -- here who cares, all celebrate each others reverered moments no matter what religion. Commercialization, yes, but so what! Everyone has a good time.

Outstanding article! Loved it!

I have been aware of this real, underlying history of Xmas for a long time of course, and have celebrated, feasted and practised true pagan debauchery on my own Winter Solstice, for years.

It's about time these Christian "thieves in the night" who but attempted and continue to attempt to graft themselves and their symbols onto this ancient, ancient, long before Christianity celebration, were exposed as the frauds and charlatans they are. :-) On the other hand, you want to celebrate your Christman, whilst we eat, drink and be merry-, feel free to do so, of course. Just stop, fer Chris'sake evangelizing with bullshitt and trying to write the Rule Book for the rest of us. (Same for all you religious folks.)

I definitely thought this story would be too "radical" a view for Tyee to allow, it tending to some anality at the management level. :-)

A Merry Winter Solstice to all, including my Christian and "other" religious friends of course.

An excellent article.

Never thought of that but it makes sense - plus, there would be those unions, no doubt, that would have produced a tribe of mall-rats, thus lessening the bequests.

In sleeping through it, I think the bears have it right.

With that, may a happy Christmas, Xmas, holiday, Winter Solstice or whatever takes your fancy and that does no harm to others, be your lot.

Nothing to add, Coyote. Well said. Merry Solstice everybody.

What a relief to discover Christmas is actually a syncretic quasi-pagan festival of commerce and indulgence. OK, so if that's so, who do why politically correct governments still try to proscribe the word? Just wondering.

I've often found that war being fought on the side of the religious right stems from the threat of truth. That is, in the face of the realization the Christmas and all of the symbolism and customs that go along with it, have nothing to do with the birth of Jesus. I have many a Christian in my family and I now (in my more mature state :) understand and appreciate why their Christmases of past years were one of minimal consumerism, pomp and circumstance. They took the time to worship with family and not stress about what centrepiece will impress the most.

It's really unfortunenate that godliness, for some, is equated with consumerism (which is also equated with freedom, hence gw bush instructing americas to go the malls in the face of terrist threats).

I guess I do have a problem with those who advocate NOT using 'Merry Christmas' or setting up 'Christmas Trees'. It seems to me to be misplaced energy. The fight should be against Christmas as a time of excess consumption. Call it what you want: I'll probably continue to call it Christmas - I'll still even continue to set up my Christmas tree - despite the fact that I refuse to buy gifts for people due to some 'social norm' dictated to me by the media ("only 4 more shopping days left"). And as for the counter attack by the religious right. Well, like I said, I believe that conventional wisdom is being questioned, and if Christmas can be turned upside down, then what next - that's the real threat to them and I'm sure erwin will surface in due time to argue semantics.

So, I'll say this to all: Merry Christmas and Happy Soltice.

A-freakin-men, sister.

sorry about the bounty of typos!

A very happy New Year to all !!

Shannon, good piece and just why wouldn't Tyee run it?

Grumpy, I'm with you. Pass the humbugs and stay away from those shepards in the mall.

That was fence-sitting BC Mary playing it safe.;-)

The Victorian era was busy one in terms of "invented traditions"...the modern commercial Christmas is just the start of it. Everything from monarchy to nationalism was re-branded in manner that endowed the new identities with the apparent gravitas of tradition.

I recommend "The Invention of Tradition" edited by Eric Hobsbawm.

Yes, let the record show that I - dissolute Straussian that I am - have just recommended the work of the Marxist historian ;-)

Even my jewish & muslim co-workers are gamefully wishing everyone else "Merry Christmas" here at the office this week (just don't wish it back - say "thank you" instead). It's only the new puritans that have issues with it.

Merry Christmas, Happy Solstice, and all the best in the new year.

Now, now nightbloom, I think you rush too quickly to your little bag of convenient descriptions.

Actually neo-puritans has a better ring to it, if you have to go there.

I do wonder what your jewish and muslim co-workers greet each other with.

I'm not trying to look for divisions with that statement, but instead wonder if they too aren't intimidated into compliance as most are by the overwhelming volume of the Christmas message.

I'll bet if you ask, you'll find some of them are also sad to be caught up in the buy, buy, buy thanks to the media's round-the-clock push to get you into the shopping malls or suffer the wrath of their brainwashed kids who don't realize this commercial pigfest is the bastardization of a Christian bastardization of even earlier festivals about simple things like light and darkness.

PS: The real treat starts tomorrow when the sun sticks around for a few more seconds than it will today.

In six short months we get to look at it from the other side.

When I was a child the only thing open on Christmas day was the odd filling station. Now restaurants, movie theaters and stores are open Christmas day encouraged by religious politicians on the right. Let's not mention what sunday shopping has done to christianity.

If the Christians really wanted to "take back christmas" they would start an advertising campaign called "Santa Claus does not exist". Billboards, tv and newspaper adds. This would be interesting.

Typical, the author, the Tyee editors and most, if not all the posters to this point seemed to overlook, or weren't informed enough to catch the false assumption in the following sentence:

No one can be offended by the greeting "Happy Winter Solstice," - even the atheists -- since that's the natural event underlying every other cultural and religious celebration.

[B]

Sorry Shannon Trupp, winter solstice is not the natural event underlying every other cultural and religious celebration. Channukah, for one has nothing to do with the winter solstice. Notwithstanding, I am sure there are folks who find ingenuitive ways to incorporate and assimilate historically unrelated winter solstice and X-mas traditions into Channukah celebrations and vice versa. When in Rome...

Son of pig and monkey has Trumped Rupp with Trupped.

Alas, so much cynicism.

"Bastardization" is harsh, if we're going to split hairs regarding vocabulary. I see no negative imputation in acknowledging the pagan origins of modern festivals. It's historical fact (and one which I don't think has ever been denied...they're not saying anything new).

Good point regarding Channukah - Particularly in view of the fact it bears on a religion that pre-dates paganism and is still around to talk about it [thank G*D] Perhaps the oversight is due to a latent Christocentric worldview inherent in The Tyee yet unbeknownst to the editors... :-P

It occured to me this year, whilst speanding hundreds of dollars on gifts for people which I don't know if they'll even like, that christmas certainly is a great ploy to get us to buy not only more than we need - but in fact to transcend the limit of more than we want.

I speant roughtly $300 on gifts this year. Miniscule next to some... but I'm a university student and for me this is all out. Getting my uncle a video game I don't know if he'll like, and my brother a book I'm not sure he'll read...... of couse my efforts won't be for nothing. I'll get a whole bunch of stuff I only half wanted myself. Then once my credit is paid off in January, I'll go buy the stereo that had there been no christmas, is the thing that capital speant on me would have gone towards anyways.

Net effect: consumer waste.

Feel free to return your gifts people. And pack reciepts into the things you give! Let them all live like free capitalists with their capital being as liquid as it's supposed to be.

Okay, brace yourselves:
It's Holy Father Christmas as pope dons traditional hat
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/12/21/051221182323.6y8q01ja.html

It's actually a traditional hat used by pontiffs since the late Middle Ages.

Mel from Calgary wrote:

"When I was a child the only thing open on Christmas day was the odd filling station. Now restaurants, movie theaters and stores are open Christmas day encouraged by religious politicians on the right. Let's not mention what sunday shopping has done to christianity."

He has a valid point that I would enlarge on. I am 63 and I remember that when I was 8 or 9 world maps for children featured a sleeping Mexican under a cactus in the map of Mexico, a woman with a conical hat planting rice in China, a man in short leather pants in Germany and so on. In those days people of the country lived in the country of origin. In Buenos Aires, where I lived I never saw a Japanese except one, whose name was Matsumoto an who was a gardener.

30 years ago I lived in Mexico where Mexicans enjoyed and celebrated el DÃ*a de los Muertos (the day of the dead). It was about 30 years ago that street urchins in Mexico City started asking for, "Mi Halloween." Putting out our shoes one the eve of January 6th in Argentina was soon replaced by Santa Claus. So we should add globalization to the "erosion" of secular, religious and traditional customs.

I have had exquisite sushi in Mexico City with avocado and other Mexican variations.

This essay in the NY Times pretty well explains all we might not know about reindeer, etc.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/20/opinion/20seal.html?n=Top%2fOpinion%2fEditorials%20and%20Op%2dEd%2fOp%2dEd%2fContributors

Alex Waterhouse-Hayward

nightbloom you write:

"Good point regarding Channukah - Particularly in view of the fact it bears on a religion that pre-dates paganism"

Are you sure about that? I guess you are starting at Genesis with the apple and the one God.

Priests didn't have to be celibate until the 14th century. Up until then the Catholic church ran most of the brothels in Europe. Maybe someone decided to use celibacy as a marketing tool or to stem the backlash?

Denis B you write: "Up until then the Catholic church ran most of the brothels in Europe."

They were also plotting to some day come up with the concept of Wallmart and computer viruses.

hey you can't call us wingnuts . thats not fair - you socialist wannbes are the wingnuts, the moonbats, the "NDP Chicken Basket - all left wings and assholes." etc

is is so politically incorrect to call us wingnuts - stick to your usual labels - facists, NRA gun lovers, nazis . . . or make up something new.

Calling us wingnuts will just further confuse the useful idiots that believe the stuff you write.

Merry Christmas

Merry Pagan Ritual day back, Fred and Ethel!

We have many religious holidays in this country for many different cultures and there is never a negative word mentioned about any of them.
But mention Christmas and it starts a huge debate. Why is there such a movement to take Christ out of Christmas? I don't understand what the motivation is, are the Christians and others that want to celebrate it a threat to someone or something?
I'm just wondering, I thought the reason for the season was the celebration of the birth of Christ.
It seems if it was a Buddist celebration or maybe Dawali(east indian) it would be okay, and it should be okay to celebrate your faith, but it seems more and more Christianity is under attack.
Call it what you want, solstice or whatever, for me as a Christian I live in a country with religious freedom and I can chose to call it Christmas and celebrate the birth of Jesus. and I thank God for that.

No, I was being flip, not scientific. Although settlements in Israel have been unearthed dating back to about 9,000 B.C.E., the Patriarchs Abraham, Isaac & Jacob (who kicked off monotheism in the West) are dated at approx. 4,000 years ago (17th century B.C.E. - still pre-dating the foundation of Classical Greece by about 1,200 years, and Ancient Rome by slightly moreso). They were roughly contemporary with Middle Kingdom period of Ancient Egypt.

So Judaism pre-dates the Greek & Roman paganism that we're familiar with, which has been handed down to us in myth & poetry by antiquarians, but that's the extent of it. There were certainly other things going on outside of the Western Tradition well before then.

And then I suppose there's the pre-historic cave art scattered thoughout Europe, which suggests a nature-driven Animist spirituality among Early Man. Who knows.

There is no such movement. It is a "war" made up by right wing fundementalists in the states in an attempt to rally against the evil "atheist liberal hords."
I'm sure you can name a bunch of people speaking out against this "War" but can you name anyone waging the war? Nope, cause there isn't anyone.

... BC Mary is a "fence-sitter?" Hahahahahahahaaaa >

Anyway, Skepticool, my usual wish is Happy New Year so please accept it. And if you happen to have some fun between Dec. 15 and Dec. 31, well, good for you.

What has always (in adult life) bothered me about Dec. 25 is the way it divides society, in one fell swoop, into an upper and lower class society. At Christmas, there's no missing this fact.

The wealthy enjoy the gift-giving Christmas almost as a birth-right. But the poor feel poorer, more unworthy, more abandoned and unwanted. I think about poor kids who can't buy their Mom a gift. Or poor parents who might actually consider stealing some chunk of merchandise so that their kids might feel "equal". Pointless and cruel to tell a poor family it's their "right" to ignore Dec. 25. And so they suffer -- all year long -- but they suffer most at Christmas. Because of money.

I've despised the way Christmas allows money to become the sanctified measure of even the love we feel for our families and friends. So it's not for religious reasons that whenever possible I travel somewhere and/or spend the day alone. By the way, it's a great time to travel ... yeah, that, too, gets manipulated by the Holy season. But, like I said, Happy New Year!

And there it is: presecution as a validation of the religion. I've always wondered why fundimentalist christians always acted like they were being percsecuted; it's their path to the "kingdom of heaven".

You know, thats more than a little twisted....

It's part of the visceral father-slaying self-loathing vandalism inherent in Rousseauian liberalism. They must burn down the house into which they were born as the only means of establishing their own fragile identities ;-)

The established faith traditions are the last bulwark standing in the path of unbridled ideology and the complete commercialization of the private human self (hence the big push over genetics & stem cells).

Besides, the secular Left has discovered their own means of salvation & liberation, and we must all be converted by the sword of the state.

That's why the great huffing & puffing over language. It isn't enough to have a commonly-accepted separation of Church and State. Society & the very cultural sub-code upon which it is based must to re-written.

Okay, I'll stop....Just havin' fun with ya -

Are you for real barryjo. When a Buddist celebration or Dawali turn into a rampant consumeristic nightmare, there will be criticisms. Read some of the posts - it will (hopefully) make clearer some of your concerns. Why do we criticise Christmas: well turn on the news tonight at 6 and I guarantee that story #1 will be to remind us that there are only 3 shopping days left. We might even be treated to an on-scene investigative report from the mall. If so, look at the people in the mall with their hands full of scented candles and all those wonderfull things that we all want but are not sure why. Jamez has it right, it isn't us who started this war - just tune into tv tonight and pay attention as a tv voice over instructs you to shop at toys r us (or wallmart, or some other like entity) insisting that they have everything you need for the holidays. If you want to celebrate the birth of jesus on December 25, good for you (even though the date is wrong), but as long as Christmas remains what it is, expect more people to walk away from, and expect more people to speak out and turn your world upside down.

To Nightbloom and Alexwh:

Monotheism was a reaction to paganism not the other way around.

With the human sacrifice rituals and other festive bloodletting occasions associated with paganism at the time of the emergence of monotheism, the paganism that was being contested by the Hebrew patriarchs and the Israelites was due for reform.

Monotheism = one god with many pronounceable names and another name that nobody was supposed to pronounce.

The many pronounceable names of the monotheistic god were names of local and regional pagan gods, some of whose followers joined the monotheistic reform movement.

The other name belonging to the monotheistic god that nobody was supposed to pronounce, later called the tetragammon because it contains 4 consonants, (either YHVH or YHWH), is mispronounced by Christians anyway as Yaweh, or Jehovah.

I don't believe I claimed it was otherwise.

This is the true significance (as I have been given to understand) of the Abraham story in which he is first bidden then prevented by God from sacrificing his son (someone mentioned it in this or another thread)....It was actually scripturally mandated obligation to cease all human sacrifice, not an exhortation to do so!).

Sounds like a great early basis for ecumenism & inter-faith dialogue...What went wrong, I wonder? (rhetorical question only)

Sorry S.O.P.A.M. - I misinterpreted you. My mistake.

I was actually thinking in terms of the Western faith tradition. Judaism pre-dated the pagan forms that have been handed down to us in the Canon (i.e. Greece & Rome).

Good commentaries for the most part:

It's unfortunate that some commentators don't read the commentary, or it would be even better!
Why is there a war on Christmas? Because its pagan. Because the whole holiday is based on a lie instilled by Romes old time politics and its Church which in case anyone hasn't noticed, has a billion followers to this day. And the media blesses it, as does big business. And the politicians of our day, kiss the ring of the pope in some gesture that its like kissing the hand of Christ himself.

Christmas is a time for family, of course! But what else should we do with snow on the ground? As for the realists, as for those who know history well, Christmas is also a harsh reminder of mockery and smears against the truth itself.

B.C. Mary:
I won't always (or often) agree with you, but on this one, you are bang on. Everything you say has within it, the voice of passion... one that recognizes that Christmas leaves a good number of people in the cold, for we have two kinds of Christians. The persecuted, and the persecutors... while the rest sit on a fence and watch. (often just one side of it)

There are the true followers of Christ (lambs) and their leaders (sheppards and bulls), and those who slaughter them in the name of Christ and/or nation. There are those who are connected and whole, and those who are disconnected, incomplete and dangerous to themselves and others. Anyone who knows history well and watches it repeat itself, finds it hard to celebrate a lie, but I'll share with you a trick that works for me well.

The past is the past. It's our greatest teacher. The future is goals yet realized, our hopes and dreams. but its not now, but right now that matters most, for the moment of presence is our time... in this time, we find our spark and learn to ignite and feed the flame with finite deadwood that lights our way through darkness, watering what won't burn along the way so it grows, watering the trees of life, of truth, of knowledge, of love, of worship.

If you find that Christmas on any day, then you have found the origins to your own self... and the mother (holy spirit) will find your light and claim you as her daughter or son. Take the shield I've been given and know that its truth given with love that guides our journey's home through each season of change, amen.

Christ was taken out of Christmas long ago and we cannot blame agnostics and atheists. Coca-Cola's Santa Claus is a big clue. Western capitalist Christians played the major role in removing Christ from the celebration. I would think true Christians would support non-Christians in choosing not to falsely celebrate. I have no problem with Christians putting Christ back into their Christmas and encourage them to hurry up and do so. I don't think Christ would be particularly thrilled to see how his symbolic birthday is celebrated in a festival of the worst outrageous consumer waste.

It took me many years to come to terms with the fact I was too poor to buy the gifts the promotional campaigns insist are necessary to show your "love." Today I don't get depressed at Christmas anymore -- no tree, no decorations, no lights, no mass mailings, no parties, no January debt. Out of affection I send the odd card to older relatives who send them and who I know take it seriously as a holy day. I don't feel obliged to do anything. I feel the same about minor consumer "holy" days like Valentine's, Easter, and Halloween. Since I don't watch television and only shop when I need something specific like groceries it is easier to avoid the influence of the disgusting consumer frenzy.

I totally look forward to sharing a good meal with family this weekend (despite being a vegetarian among turkey eaters). Happy Holidays to all and the best for the New Year. Peace.

Alexwh....Thanks for the Deja-vu..... I remember a childrens book and it was about a boy named Paco. I believe the story was set in Mexico and it told of his day to day life. Putting the shoes out rings a bell, that triggered the memory of the book long since forgotten.

It's no secret we live in a consummer/stress driven culture and it weighs heavy on our well bing in so many ways. The stress of success to provide and gain wealth. Working in competition, not to mention the noise, traffic and air pollution we suck on every day. All take their toll on our minds and bodies. Increased road rage, rudness and lack of courtesy have reached epidemic proportions. People sweating the petty things.... It's sad to see the debate over what is the right thing to say, as if it matters in the big picture. Having just returned from sailing in the Caribbean I met some new friends who may not make in a year what I spent in two weeks. Yet they shared their food and drink with us. I've been given a gift that will last forever. To see the happiness of people without wealth. This is what I am most thankful for this year. These people are aware of Christmas too, but I think they would be just as happy putting out their shoes as emptying their stockings Christmas morning. I've spent/wasted time debating meaningless issues in the past, I just hope I can tell the difference in the future. More likely a few weeks back in the big city and I'll end up miserable telling you over and over again how much more I like Dolphins than people!! Just remind me it's time to return to the islands when that happens. Take it easy everybody, get together and feel alright. Have a merry Christmas too.

Let's face it, winter in the Northern Hemisphere, more accurately Northern Europe and Canada, blows. It is cold, snowy or wet depending whever you are and dark. It is not pleasant.

I don't care if you call this time of year "Melvin," I am going to eat some good food, drink some good booze and hang out with my family.

That's how I pretty well look at it. I'm not religious, but I don't think you have to be to enjoy the sentments of Christmas... that is, getting blasted with your Dad and making smartass remarks about each other's political leanings.

(allan) No, I was actually referring to the 'New Puritans' of radical secularism, who seek to acid-wash the public sphere into such a constrained state of antiseptic ahistorical acultural sterility, and for whom the constitutionally, legally, traditionally and conventionally guaranteed separation of Church & State just isn't good enough.

Wow, I never thought asking a couple of questions would get such a negative response.
The bible doesn't talk about Christmas celebrations or buying anything for Christmas or gift exchanges etc..
It does talk about the negative reactions of people who don't agree with what we believe in and that is really okay.
Some of us have faith in something outside ourselves and part of that faith is to celebrate the birth of Jesus on a certain day like Christians have for a long time. Is it Christianity or the commercialization of Christmas you are opposed to because they certainly are two very different issues.

You know, if I was God, but I'm not, but if I was, but I know I'm not, still if I was, I would have my only begotten born in the spring, where most of the rest of life begins its cycle to nurture my begotten son with its own purpose... I would let those who seek my truth and love, know who I am and what my intentions are, regardless of their own origins from the lands they were born in, for I would know ultimately, that they have originated with me.

I would give the answers to those who seek me in earest and compassion, regardless of whether or not they were good dancers at a fire, wore makeup or had hair long or short. I would let them know, those who were sincere, my truths regardless of whether or not they were male or female, young or old, black, white, yellow, brown or polkadot... and I would most assuredly tell those who loved me and their families enough to keep records of my teachings for all the generations to come.

I would council my children to buy of me gold (knowledge) tried by fire... and let them know that its not money, but those with the love of money and fleeting power that is an enemy against them... and I would most assuredly bless "Granthams" and anyone else who reads the words of my son Matthew chapter 5 verse 10 and lives by these truths.

Ultimately, I would council my children of judgement (rewards and sanctions) to come and to let them know that they have two bodies, not one... I would let them know that I cannot restore what isn't real... for I am no fake, neither are my children, and the body does not lie. Above all, I would council them all to prepare for me a meal worth eating, so they can become a part of my body and be one, for my begotten son has prayed for this, as well as those who speak the truth with their hearts to reach me,
"Our father, who art in heaven, hallowed is thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day, our daily bread (good will and teachings that is one) and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into tempation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen. For if you forgive men and women their trespasses, I will forgive you."
Blessed are those who have the words of my begotten son within their hearts...

If I was God... but I'm not. I'm just the average Joe like yourselves who cares enough to try to write, like most of the rest of you, a recipe for a really good meal.

Bingo. The commercialization issue is just the Trojan Horse.

Otherwise they'd be putting together their argument totally differently.

Christianity is built upon a genuinely original rebuke of wealth and avarice, and that rebuke has resonated continually throughout its history. It's also been the source of some of the most convulsive periods in Western spiritual history.

The last several Popes have all been equally critical of capitalist excesses as they were of communism (notably JPII and more recently Benedict, yet the latter is only remembered for his anti-Communism).

Yet those on the liberal-Left & in the media mounting this critique never draw from these sources, which go back 2000 years. Instead, the Western faith tradition is simplistically presented as the exploitative partner of elites in the exploitation of the poor. It is made out to be a two-dimensional purveyor of inquisitions, burnt heretics and hoarded wealth.

I find this debate about the excesses of Xmas even more amazing when I am reminded that Christian missionairies put the boot to the potlatch as an honourable and worthy and cultural event.

There is some irony in that the edicts of hell and worse for such "sinful" actions by wealthy west coast aboriginals rained down heaviest as Santa and company were just starting to show up in every day lore of the new cult of consumerism.

Jees, I hope they never show a documentary on the old cultural lifestyle of the Queen Charlottes peoples as filler on a quiet Christmas afternoon.

Kid'll be burying their loot in the backyard the first chance they get.

Hmm - smart riposte allan (if somewhat tangential)

Out-of-control consumerism is everywhere around us anytime of the year (granted, it peaks in the run-up to Thanksgiving & Christmas).

The hijacking of a religious holiday for commercial purposes is valid & true as a point of criticism in itself. Similar, but less successful, attempts to commercialize *the* most important point in the Christian Liturgical Year (i.e. EASTER) also provide a useful example, and should be examined.

I just don't think commercialism is the real issue here.

Quote:
One theory for the Catholic Church's insistence on a celibate clergy was that those acquisitive leaders found that priests without spouses and children willed their money to the church.

Hey maybe that's why they oppose gay marriage too

Hey!! there's finally a solution to my dilemma. My husband (who is Muslim) and I frankly just gets annoyed by the rampant consumerism and hypocrisy that is "Christmas", although I am not Christian, I hang on to it for the kids to have some fun. (me too) We choose not to have cable -immense waste of money & time- so don't get too wrapped up in the pre-season panic. From now on I shall wish everyone Merry Melvin ! I will now incorporate christmas traditions into the new holiday to and reclaim the celebrations as my own.
Merry Melvin everybody!!!!

Festivus for the rest of us?

Yeah, Festivus! Last year, I needed to have some advice from my family. It concerned whether or not to give financial support to a young relative who wanted to study for his private pilot's licence. The conference concerned (a) was it a good idea, and if so, (b) who should supply the support. It was a simple question and to be fair: my little family is unaccustomed to squabbling.

But on that occasion, the topic itself seemed to arouse memories of thwarted dreams, sibling rivalries, and financial advice. Voices hardened. Knuckles whitened. One-syllable words and exclamation points seemed to hover above the kitchen table.

Suddenly, we realized we were celebrating Festivus in the true tradition -- the exchanging of insults. Conference adjourned, with laughter. [And yeah, it was a good idea. I paid. No regrets.]

Festivus for the rest of us is a moment worth celebrating -- with laughter -- in the darkest days of winter. You decorate an aluminum pole, right ...?

Actually BC Mary - the aluminum pole is left un-decorated. To decorate it would go against everything that Festivus stood for. I'm looking foward to the Feats of Strength myself.

Ah, the Festivus miracle!!! I can feel it coming alive on the Tyee.

Through the crass manipulation, there are many for whom Christmas is the most stressful time of the year. You referred to this sombre aspect in a previous post, BC Mary.

It takes strength but the system can be beaten.

The greatest joy should be in family members coming together over the mealtable. For my large family, while the children receive small gifts, for the adults there is an exchange of (usually) used books. We are all aware of this before the Christmas gathering.

A dog-eared copy of Ken Follet's Pillars of the Earth gave me many hours of pleasurable reading, as did a four-volume set of Lawrence Sanders starting with The First Deadly Sin. - all of these and others, most treasured.

The thrift stores will be your most reliable friends at this time of year.

i haven't reveiwed all the posts, but thought readers here might enjoy this column about the miffed fundamentalists:

http://www.slate.com/id/2132806/?nav=ais

be well

thank you for the article!

nightbloom you write: "The hijacking of a religious holiday for commercial purposes is valid & true as a point of criticism in itself. Similar, but less successful, attempts to commercialize *the* most important point in the Christian Liturgical Year (i.e. EASTER) also provide a useful example, and should be examined."

I have written here that in Latin America we used to celebrate January 6 instead of the Santa Claus Christmas. This is the Epiphany. For most the real significance of this holiday has been forgotten. The three wise kings or magi represent the unclean/uncircumcised gentiles (non jews, non chosen people) who suddenly through the new contract of the New Testament are allowed into the fold of salvation. It would be interesting to see how this former holiday on the relevance of uncircumcised penises could be exploited.

You might have warned me it was Christopher Hitchens on Slate. I'd have donned protective lenses.

Even Mother Teresa & the Queen Mum have been gleefully assassinated in his writing. He offers no truth, no insight - only wave after nicotine-fueled wave of cynicism.

He's a man for his times in that he is a hyperbolic example of the journalistic voice of today's Left. I see many journalists attempting to immitate his style of "debunking" through disingenuously presented ironies.

Don't get me started on penises, alexwh. I'm liable to max-out the Tyee's server & miss Christmas altogether.

I like what you're getting at with the significance of the Epiphany (the historic & scandalous opening up of the Covenant with God to the gentiles & the unclean).

That was also the significance of the miracle stories - i.e. Jesus' healing of the 'sick' (those barred from the religious community due to illness or deformity), the raising of the 'dead' (those ritually banished from the community, marked by a ceremonial funeral & entombment with burial shroud). These realizations are the beginning of what is referred to in code as an adult or mature faith.

I doubt the Epiphany has much commercial potential, although I can see a secular significance as an occasion to appreciate diversity, tolerance of non-conformity, multiculturalism, and the Outsider among us.

But ... have you noticed, when you visit a thrift shop, there are poor families with kids also looking for something? Their happiness, when they find something they need at a price they can afford, is downright heartbreaking. Nope. I think we should do without gifts.

I feel best when I place some money somewhere so that it boosts others. But it'$ alway$ about money. So I think a truly decent way to acknowledge Festivus is to ignore $anta Clau$ and celebrate it like Thanksgiving.

Thanksgiving is the celebration I do enjoy. No gifts, no parties, no frantic travel, no debts -- but with a happy dinner gathering in which we pause to give thanks for each other and what the earth -- for a while yet -- has supplied.

Nightbloom: I am hoping for tolerance of this unconformity.

Oh ... and Christopher Hitchens is no longer a Leftie, didn't you know? He stayed too long in the U.S., I guess.

No - he's still Left. He simply can't resist indulging his inner Contrarian, even against his own cohort.

He's contrary for the sake of being contrary...the alter-ego of those who go whichever way the wind is blowing at a given moment, and just as opportunistic.

He underwent a period of disenchantment with the Left (esp. the European Left) as a result of his support for the 'War on Terror'.

His politics are ultimately a manifestation of his own deep-seated emotional drama, which is why his writing has been such an unreliable compass to assist in orienting one's opinions on politics & society.

Now that this interesting discussion has descended to the level of penises, I feel it's time for a little historical perspective.

Most of the characteristics of Christmas, like most of the characteristics of Christ, are much older than the couple of thousand years we allow them. The ones everybody seem to be objecting to were mostly adopted from the people of the northern forests, who were a branch of the Spiritist religion of Western Europe.

The tree, the long feast, the gifting, the carolling, the dating at the solstice, all Northern in origin, though probably very similar to the original Mithran traditions in many respects.

These people were very interested in the 'heart' of things. Everything had it's nature and spirit, and the spirit of everything resides at it's heart. The tree was a sacrifice, with it's permission. The heart of the tree was burnt at the hearth of the house, the top and rushes used to renew and decorate.

The people all gathered around the fire and sang the wishes of their own hearts into the smoke, which carried those prayers, as it had agreed to do, straight into heaven.

These were tree people. They knew that God was also spirit, but unlike the spirits of earthly things, the spirit of God was unbiddable. To people at least. The thought was that trees, with their different qualities and stronger spirits, had direct access to God, who would listen to such a noble messenger, and hear the songs of the people.

Then the sun would return, the days begin to grow longer, and the promise of summer reborn.

The feasting and gifting was a survival thing, by now some members of the tribes would be getting very hungry and shabby, with January and February still to come. The more fortunate would provide a couple of weeks of plenty for the group. Feed them up a bit, to help them through till spring. Plus maybe a warm coat or scarf or boots, you know whatever. Out of fellow feeling.

It was an easy graft. The Son brings the light back to the world. The spirit is all important, peace on Earth, good will toward everyone.

All language is metaphor. Get a Grip.

Merry Christmas everybody!

That was beautiful, Bailey. Survival I can appreciate. Consumerism and gratuitous advertising makes me nuts.

Mary, I know exactly how you feel.

My favourite remedy for it is a candy cane. Preferably hanging on the rim of a glass and slowly melting into a nice eggnog.

Cheers, my dear.

Let's talk about two differant things here. Let's talk about Christmas, and lets talk about X-mas.

Christmas will readily be defined as the christian holiday. Symbols include baby in manger, virgin birth, wise guys, lambs, silent night ect. ect. ect.

X-mas is the modern holiday that permeates the culture. Symbols include santa clause, frosty the snowman, visa bills, and marginilized under classes stealing chocolate out of garbage cans who subsequently get fired from zellers.

Alright? Ok.

Here's what I'm hearing. A rapid attack on X-mas and a general consensus that not alot of people actually like it as much as they're told about it. Also, it's fair to say that almost all Christmas coverage on tv is actually x-mas coverage. Reports from the mall, ect.

Some generaly secular individuals want to be free of x-mas, and have no part in it. The religius individuals agree with the attack on x-mas, but accuse it of being an attack on christmas.

The thing is, if the secular section of society were to give up x-mas entirely, and x-mas were to cease to be, christmas (which was all thing x-mas is) would largely fall off the radar, and that would result in the associate religion, christianity, to have a significanly reduced media profile. That's because as much as we draw this dichotomy between the two, and it's very very easy to do, there still exists an intrinsic link between them. X-mas has become Christmas's extremely prevalent publisist.

Some realize this, and make accusations of trojan-horse attacks, as if there was some pre-meditated alternative goal. This is not much more than a conspiracy theory as an argument, and therefor hard to argue with.

I see the conflicting interests of promoting X-mas despite its inherrent conflict with Christmas, with the need to keep what ammounts to the single greatest advirtising campaign for the christian relgion as great as it is. My question is why? Christianity for the sake of the name of christianity at the cost of actual christian philosphical concepts? As sure as JPII or Benedict preached against excess and consumerism, X-mas is already useless in the goals christianity proports.

Xmas as a vehicle of conversion to Christ-mas?

I'm not so sure it's been an effective means of fillings the pews. Attendance has been in free fall over the past thirty years while commercialism has skyrocketed.

The dynamic is actually reversed - the use & abuse of Christmas to convert everyone to secular commercial Xmas.

So we're left with the question: if we take Christmas out of Xmas, then what will become the new Xmas? You just know commercialism will simply find new garb. It's human nature - Xmas only gives us the license to do what we really crave to do on a superficial level.

Ask any 6 year-old what Christmas is all about. They get it. It's Santa Claus and presents.

Hey, even the Flying Spaghetti Monster is getting in the holiday spirit. Send an e-card today! May his noodly appendage touch us all.

http://www.venganza.org/

Let me know if I have this right.

A woman 2000 years ago, gets pregnant, her husband did not have sex with her. How did she convince someone (including her husband) she was carrying God's child?

Why wasn't she stoned to death as an adulteress?

If Mary was alive to-day she would make a fortune in real estate. If you can sell that story you can sell anything.

Mel from Calgary: Doubting Thomas is Doubting Mel but consider that the bulk of the present federal campaign promises is just as unbelievable. There is a difference. Those who believe in the Immaculate Conception have faith. Those of us who believe the present campaign promises believe them because.....?

Mel from Calgary here is some more info: In Mexico they celebrate the posadas in which people holding candles go to the home (where the posada is) and symbolically try to get into the house by singing for permission for entrance. Finally the host says yes and all enter and have a party. The virgin Mary's Immaculate Conception must have been well known and unbelieved. That is why nobody wanted to give refuge to Joseph, Mary and the poor donkey.

People used to believe the world was flat. Many people believing something does not make it true.

Mel from Calgary: Romance comes usually from unbased expectations so I discern in you the unromantic type. Some people still belive the earth is flat and that dinosaurs went extinct a few thousand years ago. We are not arguing here religious beliefs or the existence of God. Rupp's article is about the removing of Christmas from Christmas and our venturing out into holiday trees.

Many people think that Calgary is very cold wasteland. Is this true? Exploring the Christmas customs in many nations adds cultural information to the brain without brainwashing you into believing any of it. It is nice at this time of the year to dwell on how people (with romance) celebrate being alive. Unlike you in Calgary, in my native Buenos Aires, our Christmas trees seemed awfully silly in what are the hottest days of the year in the Southern Hemisphere. And Mexico which has the largest species variety of pine trees in the world imports its Christmas trees from Canada. Are they smart?

Nightbloom.

I didn't say conversion, I said hollow surrogate. There is nothing about it that would even point towards christian ideals, let alone lead anybody there.

And what is this about commercialism and human nature? Yes, while it's true that doing away with christmas while doing little else to change the prevailent cultural zeitgeist would do little to effect real change on the phenomenon, modern consumerism as an ethic has only flourished in the past 50 years, not even the past 100, and even in then more so as we know it in the past 30. Even then only for the richest segment of the global population. So even trying to call it "human nature" is pure falacy.

fuckchristmas.org

A somewhat less eloquent version of the above.

I'd be so much more inclinded to believe this "war on christmas" if I actually saw any of it first hand. Even federal government emails (I no longer work for anymore), as PC as they are readily refer to "CHRISTMAS parties" for kids, and "CHRISTMAS trees in the lobbies". Instead we get a few anticdotal stories about the odd overzealous PC beurocrat in some crappy elementary school in mississauga where half the population is hindu anyways and all of a sudden it's like stalin's back or something.

Ya sure it makes a good story that there's a conspiracy to turn us from god so that we buy more, but since when is it that it's the secular left that's the political entity that's in bed with big business anyways?

Deadend - I checked out the link - and it's the deadend.

The next battle is going to be over who gets to define the middle ground. That kind of Americanized brain-numbing polarizing nonsense isn't for us. Let them do that saturday-night-live bill-maher i'm-a-liberal-mouthpiece schtick. Since when did humour become synonymous with nihilist cynicism anywaze? Now that's the real cultural conspiracy that's goin' down. Christianity & Canadian souls are gonna be just fine - But our sense of humour is being assimilated by Uncle Sam. Quick - call Maude Barlow, someone.

But seriously - It's not a matter of the atheistic secular Left in search of an expanded constituency being in bed with the atheistic secular corporatists in search of an expanded marketshare. (gasp - 'Is he saying what I think he's saying??)

It's about the incidental confluence of interests I spoke of a while back. It's like Vancouver bar owners, the VPD and the granville-davie club-dealers: "I don't see nothin' but we're all here 2-gether, 'n we all gotta do what we're all here to do."

Puhleeeeeeeze.

(now you got ME sounding cynical!)

Consumption is a law of nature. What, you think the Western hemisphere is gong to prove to be an anomaly?? The whole planet is adopting the model - open your eyes.

:: My Point ::

Even if Christmas were wiped off the calendar, wanton consumerism would find another outlet. It's an addiction issue, not a religious holiday issue. The religious holiday only gives us the license to indulge - perhaps it grants us a measure of unconscious neo-Christian absolution in the process too.

But what do I know.

nightbloom, now you're jumping from faith into very wierd science.

, you offer.

Well primary consumption certainly is just that. We all do it or we die.

But I can't imagine trying to describe Christmas as primary anything, it's so excessive.

Your "the whole planet's adopting the model" comment is actually quite scary.

Glaciers around the whole planet have been melting at unprecedented rates the past two decades so no worry eh.

Anyway, consumerism (as we speak of it in 2005), is a reaction rather than an action. It is spurred, cultivated, hypnotized and brainwashed into us.

It's an art, a dark art, in my humble opinion.

Ever notice that three of the most popular Christmas stories -- Dicken's "A Christmas Carol", Dr. Suess' "How the Grinch Stole Christmas" and "It's a Wonderful Life" -- all focus on people who DON'T enjoy Christmas?

Even if your life isn't falling apart on Christmas Eve the way it did for George Bailey, who hasn't wanted to opt out of Christmas, if not destroy it entirely?

Also notice that all three of the above stories are about personal conversions too. Maybe we want it both ways: we get to grouse about all the hassles and hypocrisies of Christmas, but at the end of the day on December 25th we still want to carve the roast beast.

If I'm not mistaken, many have danced near the concept that it is a fallacy that the adoption of "happy holidays" over "Merry Christmas" was a blasphemous act endorsed by the "Libertarians" and their faith in political correctness. This so called "war" on the pious "Merry Christmas" phrase was institutionalized by the mighty corporate heads and retailers wanting to maximize on their target consumer pool. Obviously a multi-cultural society like the one we live in is composed of a large fraction of non-Christians who may not be as inclined to buy into a consumer frenzy for "Christmas" - but may be riled up to part with their money for the generic "holiday" season. Thus, it is doubly ironic the righteous right are angered over this hijacking of consumer entitlement since they normally endorse mindless consumerism. I think most non-Christians could care less either way - you could say merry whatever and they won't lose any sleep over it - but merchants who didn't hit their anticipated profit margins might.

Nightbloom, you continue to impress me. Bailey, nice touch on things. You are all bang on, with consumerism and its proponents and supporters. It likely saddens most of us who realize that we do it very poorly, or don't share our wealth enough with others. It's also unfortunate to see puritans claim pagan rituals as "pure", but the blind lead the blind, ah, what to do to open their eyes. And its unfortunate that themes in movies centered around giving as opposed to hoarding are seen as a dark art motive to encourage more consumption. We continue to ask the motive and look constantly for the worst. How many times will we call white, black and black, white?

Getting back to Shannons article, the reason why were still here and wordy, is because she's right on with an issue that becomes much larger to us as we get older. The truth counts. And so does tradition. But outside of our healthy need to reconnect with our families and open our doors to those who are in the cold... cause who knows how long our elders have and charity is good, whether given or recieved; outside of this needed tradition to gather when the majority of us are the least busy; (unless you work at a mall or shop there) outside of this need, why base tradition on a lie?

We know better. We've endured Christmas in the past because its a "family" holiday. But seriously... do we all open the doors for those with out a family? Do we contribute to the poor abroad, or help those here at home in need? We should have grown with our own prosperity to do just that.

I know the name "the brain" is provocative. Its why I chose it! Controversy creates the devils advocate and matures a needed craft. But in the end, its not arrogance that is asking us to pin the solutions on the problems we face today. It's humility, and I'm asking it now with this for everyone to keep in mind...

The truth counts. It counts more than most of us would like to admit and in case we haven't noticed, we don't all believe in what we think to be the same truths! Some believe in good, while others believe in evil. Some believe in Christ, the apostles, the saints and prophet(tess's) of old, while others believe in different versions of God, and others still, believe in evil's power, or no God at all.

Point is, with all of these diverse beliefs, some of us are going to be dead wrong with what we believe to be true and it counts!!! And what, if there is a God and you ask for sincere forgiveness because you didn't believe the truth when you heard it, your parents who raised you and your families generations, past, present and future, won't do it?

There are worse things in the world than to not know the truth... far worse. It's knowing (not thinking, but knowing) the truth and doing nothing with it. It is knowing that you are wrong with your choices and not admitting it. Take it from one who has been humbled... THAT IS HELL.

We still have time to appreciate what we do have, or don't... to find good company with faces we haven't seen a while... time for change. Happy ass time where you find it, and best wishes to you all.

Truth, truth, truth. I despair of you people sometimes, believing in such a nebulous thing as truth.
MelfromCalgary; Sorry, but many people believing in something is exactly what makes it true. There is no other truth available to us poor thinkers here. It's the nature of the thing.
alex; Well of course it does. Calgary is sometimes for someone a very cold wasteland. At other times its a balmy garden, paradise indeed. Both are very true, and other things as well.
Brain; I like your name. I've thought of opening a second account here under 'Pinky', just to converse with you. If I start down that road, though, I'll wind up talking to mightyfastpig as 'Charlotte' There might be no end to THAT.

The other end of this story has a character uttering the question "What is Truth?" No-one offered him a satisfactory answer then. I'll ask it of all of you. So many of you seem to have a firm grip on it.

What is truth?

Brain you have just got to stop this free-flow stuff.

You get all over the map praising and condemning the same things and then stumble into the maudling style of defence of a cultural event that more or less died with the invention of TV.

If you are a year older than you were last year then there is a good chance you have been humbled a bit.

Wisdom sometimes is realizing most people already understand what you take paragraphs to blather on about.

Truth is belief whether it's based on solid fact or our greatest desires.

You certainly can't beat it into anyone and you ought to be very careful suggesting you or anyone else has a surplus of it.

I do have concerns also about your sense that some of us "believe in evil's power". Who, pray tell?

As one who would list myself within your final option, (yes, I'm a godless something or other), I'd urge you to stay away from playing very much with that kind of mumbo jumbo because evil also floats right up there alongside truth much of the time.

Beautiful sunrise this morning and I had to get up a few seconds earlier today to enjoy it now that we are two days beyond that darkest of times.

I think it's worth celebrating, what about you?

Indeed, what is truth? A point of view? What happens when one's point of view changes? Does truth then become a lie?

I think in this form, truth become an abstraction when by nature, we look towards truth as something objectively definable. Perhaps truth is just knowledge. However, I prescribe to the notion that the more one learns, the less one knows. So what happens to truth then if it is knowledge. Maybe it becomes even more abstract when we can admit to not having all the answers.

OK, I'll stop there! Happy festivus everyone!

What is truth, eh, Bailey. Now you're really being provocative. (or--don't get me started!) I dunno either, but I thought the best rendering of this question was from a smirking Pilate, in soliloquey, in the movie, "Jesus Christ, Superstar," (mocking the King of the Jews) which, naively, got me searching the bible for a whole day, only to find that it's not even true that Pilate ever asked that question--at least not in King James--it you believe anything in THAT'S true.

To Allen: "Praise and condemn the same things"... I praise family gatherings. I just don't praise the need for pagan holidays to do it. If you've found other contradictions, please, free flow away.

People are humbled as they get older? Not the dishonest ones.

Most of the commentators here are intelligent, Allen, but its a public forum. Look at the rest of worlds population and tell me if this 'blather' isn't needed. It certainly is with those who proudly belong to cults like those neo puritans we keep referring to.

Truth is belief... that's a laugh. This statement has me thinking for a half sec that the world really is flat. In case you hadn't noticed, most people end up in a hole in the cemetary too soon because they believed in something that wasn't real. Grow up.

And truth? Most of us have a surplus of it when it comes to the simple truths, like knowing the difference between right and wrong. One part of what you said there is true... I can't beat it into you.

Belief in evils power... we do it every day when we fill our tanks at the station without a moments thought on how to change it, or not offer help those who are trying. We do it every day when we buy stuff and don't ask where it came from, or if anyone was exploited before we pull coin from your pocket to buy it. We don't have to worship evil to support it. All we have to do is participate and look the other way, claiming "wasteful consumption is built into our constitution". A belief in evil might be too simple for you. Maybe you can grasp, "a belief in destruction." Nice pray tell cheap shot. I'm supposed to respect this?

There is a Greek word for evil alongside good, or vice versa. It's "Paradeigmatizio", or in English, "Paradigm". The English language has different meanings now, as necessity (if we can call it that) is the mother of invention. But its seed is what it is, and still strikes a chord with what it implies within certain circles of usage. "Reality". But I dunno. All that mumbo jumbo is too much blather for someone as sophisticated as yourself.

As for your last statement... outside of our needed family gatherings that offer reasons enough to celebrate for most, I'm partial to things greening up around here first. Nevertheless, your last point is duelly noted. I'll toast one for you tonight on your account. No hard feelings on my end, and CHEERS, ALLAN, and Happy Holidays!

To Bailey: (chuckles) That pinky and the Brain theme would be a riot to play out, eh? There's still room for another Pinky and the Brain theme. "The Pope" is likely still available (snorkles). Happy holidays, folks.

Belief in evil's powers,...we do it every day when we fill our tanks at the station without a moment's thought on how to change it . ." etc.

offers both sides of the grey matter.

That would support my theory that capitalists all belong to a secret society of lizards who like to eat young, recently fattened working class babies.

Wow, you really have some ownership to a lot of old history based rhetoric. But you might try a little harder to link the rhetoric with the statement before or after it.

We used to call that loud filler. It was good when the photog booked off sick.

Content man, content and not just noise!

That would make an interesting alternate thread (if not very 'Christmasy'!). There should never be any confusion about evil, even if what constitutes 'good' is up for debate and re-evaluation.

Everyone should have an encounter with evil at least once in their lives.

Once it happens, you'll never confuse it with something else again.

Just a little clarification with evil, Allan... I said belief in its "powers", not necessarily belief in evil itself. My point. As an example, I believe in evil. I believe evil is very real (course if you've led my life). I just don't believe in its powers. You know, like the power in the belief that have do burn every last barrel and wreck our planet to support your theory and content? It's always too long, to short, to simple, to over the top, to wrong, to serious, to... just can't please everyone. It's too bad the puritans past or present, didn't show so we could get into a nasty debate over the bull. Sigh... if your bored, check this one out.

http://www.crystalinks.com/mithra.html

Merry Christmas to all as we celebrate the birth of the baby Jesus.
It is a holiday for all to enjoy and it is especially significant for us Christians.
There is a lot of evil in our world today and there is a lot of good, what we dwell on really affects how we react to our environment.
I was reading an article the other day that said many of those that went oversees in the first world war were self proclaimed athiests. It went on to say that there were significantly less athiests in the trenches as the war went on as when most people get really scared they reach out to whatever they believe God to be. When things go really good most don't think much about God but when the proverbial s##t really hits the fan most start to look for something bigger than themselves for help.
I think for most of us we know in our hearts that there is more to life than just what we see on the surface but we are just too self centered and lazy to explore what it is or cultivate a relationship with God as we individually understand it to be.
I really don't like what Christmas has become but I choose to look at the positive and all of those who, whether they are Christian or not, get a well deserved rest this time of year and get to spend time with family.
They say opinions are like a##holes everyone has got one, some of us have too many and probably are so full of holes we resemble Swiss cheese, but we live in a great country where we can agree to disagree and we can debate the issues without fear of personal reprecussions.
We can also practice our faith without fear of persecution and so today I will try to dwell on what I believe is the real reason for the season.
Meeeery Christmas.

Well put, Barryjo. There are no Atheists in foxholes. Freedom of expression is most definitely an excellent mate to free will, something I love this country for, even if it gets a little cheezy sometimes. Happy Holidays.

Good and evil are merely measuring sticks and value systems, Good and evil do not exist anymore than an inch exists in space. Good and evil are always flavors of the day. 400 years ago, Europeans put to death Native Americans for believing a spirit man came to Earth and transformed men into animals and animals into men millions of years ago, resulting in the great mix we see today. The natives were considered "evil" and godless. Today, fundamental Christians are struggling vehementally to get such an idea into our schools. They call it "intelligent design". They consider the pursuit of the belief as a "good" cause. Both sides fought for god in WWI. It makes sense that you might start believing in what you are fighting for and self proclaimed atheists might realise that they were simply agnostics at the time. Perhaps there are an equal number of combatants who lost their faith in god during the war. Who can say?

Thank you Eddy Haskel.

It seems some of our friends here need to hear a message from several people before they will pay attention.

Evil's right up there with beauty, a real tangible as long as it's in printed form.

Eddy,
You write that perhaps there are an equal number of combatants who lost their faith in God during the war.
One will never know for sure, I was merely stating that many self proclaimed athiests reached out to whatever they thought God to be when they got frightened enough during the war and thought they might die.
My point was that we are basically hardwired to believe in something bigger than us but we usually deny it exists until we are in a real crisis or faced with death.

There should be no equivocation in identifying this as a profoundly misguided statement. It is simply incorrect & naive.

Sorry Eddy, but you're just wrong.

As I said, everyone should have one encounter with evil at least once in their adult lives. It is a critical & painful awakening. I am not making a 'religious' statement here.

This experience essential because it ensures that we are shriven of nonsensical misinterpretations of both the concept & reality of good & evil.

For my part, I've seen evil & know that it exists. I am still reserving judgement on the existence of good (much harder to perceive), although the existence of its opposite guarantees it in theory.

Well put, Nightbloom. How easy it is to smear something good with something ugly and then claim its non existence because its been blackwashed into obscerity. From there, its so easy to minimize it to nothingness, isn't it? Were so smart.

How easy it is to sit on a fence and just look at one side of it, or refuse to give any merits to what we are looking at at all. Here we go again, claiming with arrogance, all that is real and isn't, after a mere 30 to 50 revolutions around the sun. To see only what we want to see... and then claim that seeing is believing. What fertile ground for profound revelations.

Can't help but go with Nightbloom on this one, but you'll have no fear that this will ever happen to you, Eddy and Allan. A complete lack of recognition and non participation is all that is required and you both do it well.

...As an afterthought, the sentiment which barryjo expressed is precisely what Pope Benedict was addressing when he assailed the Dictatorship of Relativism. He was on to something. Some lines need to be drawn. There's a basic inability to make basic value distinctions today, and barryjo has given voice to it.

Sorry barryjo - my post above was referring to Eddy, not you (in terms of giving voice to Relativism when he suggests that good & evil are a whimsical distinction without meaning).

I think I'd rather listen to Green supporters than those who are represented by the three fundamentalists just above.

Lest there be doubts, I speak of nightbloom, brain and barryjo.

BTW nightbloom, you ought to learn the difference between values and anything that fucking matters.

Values are something you wear as do I and everyone else. You don't like my values, well if they are not harming you or anyone else in a tangible way then piss off.

In fact, if you insist in acting like some moral compass I'll also urge you to piss right off.

If I or someone else does something to cause real harm to you or another then I would suggest you call the police rather than acting as though you were part of a religious goon squad doing the Taliban's work in Afghanistan.

Barryjo, I would strongly suggest you stay away from people who need the help of social agencies. I beleive you and your warped understanding of sick and handicapped human beings is dangerous to them.

Brain, neither I nor Eddy are sitting on any friggin' fence and each of us are saying pretty damned clearly that you are selling stale-dated snake oil here.

Your windy bafflegab just doesn't muster up to much fellow.

Allan,
You say my warped understanding of sick and handicapped human beings is dangerous to them.

I have devoted the last twelve years of my life to helping those who are sick and handicapped and I have done it with no government money,social agency money or corporate handouts. The reward is to see someone who had no hope become a hopeful, responsible and productive member of society.

If that is being a danger to those less fortunate, in your eyes, you are a very sick and twisted individual.

Allan,get off your computer, quit playing God and comptroller of the Tyee airways and actually get out and try to make a difference in someones life. And please don't tell me you already do, I can tell by your writings and rantings on here that you are one of the most self centered, misguided and self righteous folks I have ever come across in my life. And you know what, thats okay if that is who you want to be but your baseless and ignorant slagging of other people who don't agree with your point of view on EVERYTHING is starting to wear a little thin.

allan - It's unfortunate that you've become upset by this discussion.

I've given your comments a fair read, and have to conclude that either you have misunderstood or I have not articulated myself well. It's important to be passionate about our opinions, but I think you've misfired here.

Nothing I have said here could allow you to reasonably conclude that I am some sort of fundamentalist, let alone anything remotely analogous to the Taliban. That's just absurd. However, I've seen how genuinely nasty human beings can get towards one another (and by "nasty" I don't mean the silly stuff), and I'm no longer inclined to buy into the rationalizations created by the professions to explain the origins of such behaviour (screwed-up childhoods, yada-yada...although such explanations are not to be dismissed outright). There's a lot of pure nastiness out there that originates from nothing more than an ice cold & self-interested devaluation of the well-being and basic humanity of others. It's something that's in our natures - evil - which doesn't originate in our environment (but which can be stimulated & put in motion by it).

I am hardly acting as a moral compass - I was asserting that evil exists and identifying it is more than simply an expression of opinion & point of view. I'm sorry if you find that threatening or upsetting, but I stand by my statements. I believe it is important not to relativize manifestations of good & evil - a pattern of thinking which is very prevalent now & is much capitalized upon.

Interesting thing about snake oil. The expression came from an old chinese remedy (from the railroaders of the day) to use snake oil for various ailments, mainly joint and skin conditions. The higher up's (Whitey's) of the day used the expression with a rather racist bent in mind, ignoring the facts of course, that it just might work.

Recently, an investigation was done to see if, in fact, snake oil does work for such ailments. The researcher uncovered some startling facts about what he had found. Firstly, it was a watersnake that was being used for the oil source and its oils were quite high in omega 3's, (comparable to pharmecutical grade fish oils) and its make up was such that it was likely to work for the various conditions it was recommended for.

The long and short of it is this. The recommendation to smear snake oil on the skin for specific ailments was "smeared". Oh, my, my... My baffle garb is getting rather windy, so I'll make this next part clear.

My shield is thick. I can easily handle the four letter mud you sling, (like rain on wax, buddy, no biggie). But you've just gone potty mouth with two decent females here and if I don't hear an apology from you, I won't ever bother to address you again myself, but ignore you as if you were dead and this might please you, except perhaps, in the rememberance as to why. You got that? APOLOGIZE.

Religions (of which Atheism is also a belief) is a touchy subject. Thats just how it is. If you can't handle the subject without the use of four letter words, by all means, move on, but it would be wise to apologize before you do, and not just because I told you. It's because some of us, like Barryjo, and Nightbloom don't wear virtues and morals as though it was yesterdays clothes. We're not computers that are coldly programmed and deprogrammed with mouse clicks and delete buttons, here. If that's been your experience in the past, then try hanging around people who are real, instead of those who are lost and confused. You know, birds of a feather.

To Nightbloom: Pope Benedict wouldn't be the first Pope to speak on the subject of the discredit towards good and evil. Most of them have in the past (goes with the occupation). It's quite the irony. When one hears such subjects vocalized by church leaders and later has encounters with the evils of the world, this validation of empirical experience with good and evil leads one to think, having heard these comments of validation made before from specific religious leaders, that they are the authorities on the matter.

If you're bored, there are references relating to the fate of the Roman Catholic Church in revelations. (What self respecting apostle wouldn't comment on the largest institutional Christian religion in the world, right? Course, they can't just come right out and say it, or, well, the old delete button...) You'll find it in Revelations 14 : 8 - 13 (and yah, I know what it all means).

A couple of things should be noted with its implied messages, here. Firstly, hell isn't eternal (if we change :-)) Secondly, there was only one copy of Revelations ever found. Matthew had thousands (which might surprisingly, give it more credit than it deserves), but Revelations hasn't gone through any change, either from Roman archives, or King James revamped versions (mainly, because so few of us can understand it).

My point is that much of the bible is written in code, with dual meanings (natural/spiritual) in most of what is written, which you probably already suspect. The third thing that should be noted is the 13th verse implying that there are some good people in this doomed church and the insights of this verse sit very well with me. By the way, I highly appreciate your moral compass. 8-D You know what the difference is between implication and assertion, or theory and fact, and your timelyness for both is impeccable.

BarryJo: As much as I agree with your opinions of Allan (today), his opinions are still needed to enrich certain discussions. Contrast is always better than blend (I'm glad that fence exists). I too, wish it was served hot or cold, intead of puky luke warm. On this note, I'm taking up too much of the airwaves and need to get back to works like your own. Take care, everyone.

Eddy Haskell was saying "good and evil don't exist".
Good and evil have existed since the beginning of human existence and will be here as long as human life is here on earth.
As humans we have feelings and unless someone is phsycopathic or has some other brain disorder, we feel good when we do good and evil when we do bad.
Eddie wrote about American Indians being slaughtered years ago for their beliefs and it wasn't evil then but said it would be now. I think it was wrong then and those who participated in it knew it was wrong and had to live with their feelings of guilt. Those who might have thought it was okay felt that way because of ignorance.
As society evolves some things that were once thought of as acceptable might not be acceptable today but they were always evil with evil intent.
If there was no good and evil we wouldn't have to excercise judgements in our lives that determine the persons we become.

Well said. Each person is responsible for the choices they make, and the degree to which those choices reflect the good or evil sides of our nature.

There is a basic meaning to both evil & good that does not change with historical context. Their absolute value is constant.

Excellent summation, Barryjo.

I think, if one supposes that human beings have a right to live on this planet, then good describes any or all of those things which contribute to the enjoyment of that right--and tend to diminish suffering. Of course, there are those who believe that human beings are, in fact, a kind of polution, and that the place would be better off without us--a position that I sometimes find myself eerily compelled towards, but which I have so far been able to reject as quite unworkable.

Evil would be the converse, of course, being that which diminishes our rightful sojourn on earth--and tends to increase suffering. I happen, for instance, to think--like Allan--that religion is evil and I could go on at considerable length supplying evidence that such is the case, but my evidence could never be particularly convincing to those who find it difficult to find meaning without their personal brand of faith--because they would never admit to a generic branding of religion as evil--only that my examples are "special case."

I don't believe religion is evil, many people lead lives that have been enriched by their following of their faith of choice.
Religion is, however, man made and subject to fault and like everything else created by man is imperfect, at best. You will be able to find many instances where religion is less than perfect but I don't know about evil.
I know of thousand of people with addictions etc. that believe in God and religion and couldn't stop using until they found faith in something other than themselves and I don't think that is evil.
They have done research which clearly shows that people who pray and belong to a church are away less stressed than people who don't and I don't think that is evil.
Listen, if someone is alone in the world and feels insecure and afraid and joins a churh and becomes part of and feels better about themselves and is a better person overall as a result, tell me how that can that be evil.
Religion isn't perfect but neither is anything else in this world but I know for sure me and millions of others are leading much more healthy, productive lives because of it so I choose to aknowledge the imperfections and find solice in the only thing I know of that is perfect and that is God, in my opinion.

barryjo, I have a substantial rhetorical program which I believe supports my claim that "religion is evil," but I, being a self-proclaimed "big picture" kind of guy, also feel it might be evil of me to try to diminish the solace you find in your faith--unless, of course, I have some to replace it with--which I don't.

typo: "...some to replace..." should be, "something to replace..."

Truman - You would likely only succeed in providing a catalogue of human evil. The fact that religious beliefs fall prey to political, military and terrorist designs is a reflection of the perversity of human nature.

For example, the most favoured example of religion run amok in the West is the Spanish Inquisition. Yet no one ever mentions that the Spanish government had assumed control of the Inquisition (in Spain) away from the Church, converted it into a virtual arm of the government, and subsequently used it to suppress & destroy the aristocracy's political enemies.

Or, for example, the massacre of the French Hugenots in Paris in the infamous St. Bartholomew's Eve Massacre. They never bother to clarify that this was a political purge orchestrated by the secular political masters of France - namely the French King and his mother, Catherine de Medici.

There have been many secular inquisitions, witch hunts, state-sanctioned murders, and pathological fanatics who acted totally independently of religion and faith. The brutality of genocide, residential schools or anti-Semitic pogroms is not the product of religion - it's a symptom of the lesser side of human nature.

Truman,
I really appreciate the fact that you are a "big picture kind of guy" and are concerned that you might crack my faith or diminish my solace with you rhetorical program to debunk religion.
Although I appreciate your concern I wouldn't be in any danger of having my faith diminished by the rhetoric. I already know religion isn't perfect, I embrace the imperfections and I am also cognizant of the fact that all denominations aren't on the same page and some are far too political and money oriented which takes them even farther away from perfection.
One thing I know for sure, as I have witnessed it first hand, is that most people who start to follow God or a religion seem to be positively changed for the better.
When I look at individual lives and the countless millions who have benefitted from religion, I can live with the imperfections.
Churches and people will be less than perfect and let us down at times in our lives and then we learn lessons about life and who we are. I always say we have two kinds of days in life, good days and learning days, on the learning days we usually feel the most pain but we experience the most growth if we can somehow deal with the situation in a positive manner.

The marriage of church and state has been an ugly one. We sometimes, too often center on the negative without taking note of what is happening that is positive in our lives, either as individuals, or as a collective. To everyone reading, I had a wonderful Christmas day. I couldn't make it to see my own family this holiday, due to my position in the mountains of B.C. and the treacherous roads as of late in Rogers pass... its been warm here and rainy, and the higher elevations have been icy and snowy and with the risks of avalanches, the No. 1 highway has been closed for a while now. It's just a bad time of year to drive these roads, what, with the trucks and all.

A friend happened to find that I was spending it alone this year, and so he invited me over for supper with his parents, all who are East Indian. (I am white) This family had done well for itself, into hotels and restaurants and such. My friend is one of the nicest people you would ever meet, so naturally, I was expecting decent parents here. They delivered. I was treated like a prince.

My friends parents have been married for 40 years now, and were still majorly in love. What I had learned from them was immense in terms of what India is truly like and where it is going. We talked about everything tonight. The economy, where our personal lives were headed, world issues, issues of health and choices of what to eat and how to prepare it, other nations ways of doing things in all respects, religions... these were an intelligent, knowledgeable people who had traveled extensively throughout the world, sharing the good part of their lives with me on this night and I couldn't help but feel a touch of good old fashioned Serendipity.

Towards the end of the night, the conversation shifted briefly towards Islam. There is major concern in India, a country well known for its religious freedoms, towards Islam itself, for it is filled with people that are using Islam for promoting violence in today's world. (and there are 200 million people of Islamic backgrounds in India, and fast growing, a part of its religious requirements) We live in a world where we have no choice but to think and believe that "FREE WILL" needs to be most cherished and respected, as surely, if God and heavens exist, there would be no sacrifice too small to preserve, promote and protect such fertile ground for the seeds of peace, love, and freedom cannot grow without our right to choose it, or free will, itself.

In all religions that have merit to me, call me biased here, I believe in one God, one creator, and the love that exists between God and Gods creations. Within this universal, simplistic belief (and its pretty much world wide, however diverse its forms are), there is a spiritual death that comes through new awareness, where our spirit must die, or change, transform, to be reborn. In short, within life there is death, but within death, there is life. This belief in spiritual death is prevalent again, throughout the world in Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Aramaic or Zoroastrian roots, Buddhism, Native North and South American spirituality as well as natives in other continents, throughout the world, and yes, Islam. (my apologies if missed any)

How easy it would be to naturalize this rite of passage, to naturalize spiritual death, naturalize this transformation of spiritual change, to support the right to kill violently, human life or otherwise, to serve a government or church agenda. How easy it would be to use ancient texts and "scripture" to support war on a natural level... how diabolical. How evil.

How easy it would be to observe this evil and proclaim that religion itself is evil or that God doesn't exist, when evil, allowed to flourish through free will, is pure and simply, a matter of choice.

How easy it would be to not believe in God at all, to give us the right to do whatever the hell we want. But in case we haven't noticed... we had this right to free will since the beginning. The difference between a belief in God or no God comes down to judgment. Now. It is easy to see why certain things exist, for they exist out of choice and necessity. The question is, how did they originate? From God? Or from us!

I can't speak for the choices you all have to make in reader land. I can only speak for myself. But if you have run into as many psychics and prophet(ess'es) as I have, when you have run into others who have hosted spirits who address you and your future self as much as I have.... never mind the bizarre manifestations of good and evil on such levels... there wouldn't be a dis-believer among you.
We are products of our own environments. Our individual environments in terms of life experiences just simply are not the same, so who can judge? Who has this right to judge one another, even ourselves? But with this, we know our simple truths. We know the difference between right and wrong. We know that violent people, people who don't respect the rights and freedoms of others should be locked up. Enough said.

The rest of my night was excellent as well. I was given gifts from total strangers who were not so strange, caught by surprise for I had not expected this... people with a different religion, honoring my own traditions... what a wonderful world we sometimes live in. May good or God bless you all.

Hi, brain. There's a logical problem with the "free will" program--especially regarding the willingness of god to allow suffering. It goes like this: If god is All powerful, and all-loving, (remember he's able to do ANYTHING) why does he allow evil to flourish? Certainly god had free will, eh. By virtue of syllogistic analysis, an all-powerful, beneficent god COULD have created a world without suffering. Or, more specifically, regarding the supposed "free will" of humans--why not have a world in which humans have a free will in everything-except the ability to chose evil. Now THAT really appeals to me.

I don't suppose I'm the first to notice this discrepancy. What kinda god would have created carnivores, for instance? Have you ever watched hyenas rip baby antelope away from their mothers and devour them in front of her? Actually, I haven't either. On tv, I mean.

Let's face it - Christianity is a contrived religion, completely artificial. Druidism is a completely natural relgion. It is of the earth. People wanna be Druids, but society tells them to be Christians, so we're miserable all year round............

Happy New Year, everyone!

So Nightbloom, what did you receive for your encounter with "evil"? Most people get more power in one form or another. Are you the world's hottest guitarist? Did you win the love of your dreams? Why don't you explain your encouunter with evil. And Brain, quit playing that religeous victim game. It is far easier to believe in a god than to not believe. Believing in a god allows you to deny everything as god's will. Even death is denied. Afterall, you are just going to catch up with your loved ones in a few years in heaven.

Give some of these holier-than-thou christian types an entire day to themselves and just watch them turn good into evil.

Barryjo, brain and nightbloom, you three have exceeded my expectations.

You spent most of Xmas day celebrating right here on Tyee the ignorance that belief allows you to wallow in.

So all it takes is a guy who calls himself 'Bennie the good' to determined evil.

I wonder if he and his predecessors sold a small good-to-evil franchise to the US government, which has variously given the honor to the Soviet Union and Iraq.

Eddy - I know you think you're being smart & clever, but that's actually a pretty obnoxious little post you've got there.

Everyone here is making an effort to express their sincerely held opinions & beliefs regarding the subject matter of this thread. Cut the sarcasm. Do you have anything original to contribute?

Since you ask, my own encounter with evil occurred a long time ago and spanned over a two year period. It was triggered when I - as a naive 'debutante' in the gay male party scene - inadvertently came into contact with the supply-side apparatus that operates behind the scenes of Vancouver's club-drug 'industry'. I'm not talking about the punk dealers - I'm talking about the people for whom the dealers are just the front-counter retail help. Whatever you think you know is only the tip of the iceberg. It's as evil as evil gets. You can figure out the rest on your own, but that's it in a nutshell.

Anyway, I don't think anyone is obliged to divulge the personal context behind their opinions on a forum like this. People usually only see that kind of sharing as an opportunity to get petty & mean, so it's ultimately counter-productive. You should be able to draw that line yourself, and simply debate the subject matter at face value. That's the only way these kinds of threads work.

allan - more personalized insults?

Sorry to see you're still upset. Do you have anything further you want to say regarding the subject matter?

Well nightbloom, You threw the first rock so I can get as obnoxious as I like. Good and evil ARE values and measuring sticks. There are many benefits to the illegal drug scene, just ask Ollie North. Is the KKK evil? They seem like such decent folk. Is owning slaves good or bad? Christian ethics seem to indicate it is a good thing. I could go on but I've learned from past experience that debating with believers of god is totally circular. It brings to mind the saying, 'I never would have seen it if I hadn't believed it.'

commentor: nightbloomposted: 1 Day AgoQuote:
Good and evil do not exist anymore than an inch exists in space. Good and evil are always flavors of the day.

There should be no equivocation in identifying this as a profoundly misguided statement. It is simply incorrect & naive.

Sorry Eddy, but you're just wrong.

As I said, everyone should have one encounter with evil at least once in their adult lives. It is a critical & painful awakening. I am not making a 'religious' statement here.

This experience essential because it ensures that we are shriven of nonsensical misinterpretations of both the concept & reality of good & evil.

For my part, I've seen evil & know that it exists. I am still reserving judgement on the existence of good (much harder to perceive), although the existence of its opposite guarantees it in theory.

Sorry about that! Meant a partial quote.

Eddy - I didn't throw stones, I simply disagreed with you in a matter-of-fact way on the subject matter under discussion (specifically, the nature of good & evil). However, I can be abrupt with the keyboard sometimes, and didn't mean to ruffle your feathers.

Funny - I feel the same way in debating with liberal secular humanist 'believers'. We're all 'believers' in something & unreasonable fanatics abound. Fanatics on all sides are the impediment to creating a healthy middle ground we can all breathe in.

Incidentally, I said some time ago (was it this thread?) that I am (nominally) a secular humanist (I think I used the nonsensical term 'secular Catholic'). I'm just not fanatical about it, and see the importance of preserving & shoring up moderate civilizing bulwarks in society because those are the tools we've been given to work with.

Back on topic (but now repetitious on my part): Christians have been criticizing the commercialization of Christmas for years (the Pope did it again yesterday). I stand by my point that eliminating Christmas will only channel unbrindled consumerism down another avenue, probably with more directly ideological messaging built-in. Xmas only gives us an excuse to indulge ourselves.

When you mention your encounter with evil, nightbloom, it, of course, brings to mind the greased-lightning speed at which the Christian right, not to mention the Catholic Church has rushed to embrace the rights of the gay community (especially, of course, gay marriage) and also, may I mention, equal rights for women--but only rarely wishing to quote from that old Damascan Road debt-collector turned epiphaner (St.) Paul. To wit: "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." 1 Timothy 11 and 12. Seriously, though, nightbloom, I'm glad you were able to overcome whatever destructive entanglement you got into.

nightbloom posted:

This fairly current example does it for me:

Delivering Shock and Awe against many innocent, in a contrived and illegal war in which thousands perish = evil.

Bringing the perpetrators to justice = good.

I don't doubt that the vast majority of true Christians, atheists and followers of other cults and religions would be in accord with the two examples noted.

Ok Nightbloom, doves and olive branches all around. I was only responding to someone's statement that adversity is a catalyst to god worship. I stand by my assertion that adversity causes just as many to stop believing in gods. There are no forces of evil except those found in the comic books. Ollie North's defence was that he was working for the good of the nation and that you would do exactly the same thing in the same circumstances. He is a Senator now so I guess the nation bought it. So your claim that high level drug dealing is evil does not always bear out in reality.

nightbloom, it has not been me who has been denegrating anything not christian here for the past week in a futile hope to show how strong your faith is.

Look, enjoy whatever system of belief you wish, but just get it through your thick skull that you have no right to impose your views on anyone on the basis that your religion once had control of all the weapons of death and ought to continue being the dominant player in intelligent thought.

Believers really blow it when they wrap themselves in the logic of the supernatural and it gets almost embarrasing for anyone to watch as true believers will leap tall realities just to prove they believe.

The sad thing is terms like evil or good are the lazy person's means of avoiding the headache of real thought when the real world is beckoning.

No anger here nightbloom and no flames, just chortles of laughter at the wisdom of faith and a bit of puzzlement over your inabaility to wrench yourself away from it.

Okay -....although I still don't see how Ollie North & Bush are demonstrative of anything other the blatant opportunism that saturates politics. In a way, it only reinforces my point that it is a mistake to allow Evangelical nationalists to have a monopoly on religion. Liberals need to stop fighting silly showpiece battles over the Ten Commandments and hospitals named after Saints, and genuinely engage the moderate religious constituency out there. Much as she makes my skin crawl, with her peculiar persona and creepy rictus smile, Hillary Clinton is playing a very smart political gambit right now.

Truman - read my comments regarding the catalogue of offenses committed in the name of religion. They are applicable here too - the good & bad uses & abuses of religion are a manifestation of human nature and have analogies everywhere in the secular arena as well. It's us.

Re. gay rights, women's emancipation, etc. I support both in principle, which is why I support the incremental judicially-mandated secularization of the public sphere we've been seeing over the past forty years or so. The foot-dragging that has occurred only demonstrates how reflective organized religions are of their societies. They"re only reflecting the reservations that are pervasive out there. The Roman Catholic Church is hardly an exceptional icon of social conservatism in this regard. In fact, I could go on at length about its conservative wing (the 20th century movements, ironically: Opus Dei, the Legion of Christ) with its progressive liberalizing wing (the older movements: the Jesuits, Franciscans, large swathes of the Dominicans & Benedictines). There are massive grey areas that need to be acknowledged, but that would be totally off-topic in this thread.

Somebody raised a clever 'cartoon' analogy. I would fine-tune that somewhat. The hard-core Evangelism found in the U.S. is a cartoon of the Christian faith (Xmas marketing is a cartoonish misrepresentation too) . However, I would hesitate to take that analogy any further than that. The thing has a lot of layers to it.

allan - you've typecast my position without actually reading what I've been saying. I'm going to cease replying to you unless I see you apply yourself more than you're doing. I haven't been the lazy one, here, clinging to silly categories to avoid the strain of original thought (as you seem to be suggesting I am).

As a further aside on good & evil, there is an inherent usefulness in maintaining a platonic interpretation of their existence. It helps to insulate the concepts from the pendulum motion of ideologies and politics, and upholds the individual person as the central determining agent.

For example, we've entered a time when the definition of what constitutes 'the good' and 'the bad' in the public sphere has fallen almost entirely within the purview of the professions - the lawyers, the health & social welfare apparatus, political party structures & their operatives, statisticians, policy wonks.....This removes the concepts increasingly away from the freedom of choice that every individual wields. It renders the concepts subject to fungible interpretive definitions that are prone to change according to the self-interest of the prevailing party. Moreover, it becomes increasingly more difficult to counter these definitions unless one is grounded within these professions & can counter with the accepted technocratic jargon, reasoning & arcane statistical numerology. It renders the concepts inaccessible to common people, and creates monopolies of power around them.

This is somewhat tangential to 'The War on Christmas' ... but not entirely. In scanning the posts above, I still resist attempts to cast me as some sort of fundamentalist simply because I've chosen to defend the merits of a traditional societal bulwark, one which stands in the way of the complete monopoly of ideology over the public arena. Nor have I professed my personal belief system on this thread, so anyone's conclusions in that vein are unfounded & premature. It's not about me & my 'encounters' with anything. It's about the merits of the arguments on their own.

No one has yet responded to my repetitive point that the liberal-Left is missing an opportunity to expand its constituency through its own excessively dogmatic brand of secular humanism. Nor has anyone taken up my challenge that commercialism will simply replace Xmas with another consumer spending-orgy, because it's not actually Xmas that's the problem - it's the addiction underlying it that is the real problem, which will simply re-channel itself.

That's just my attempt to bring the thread back on topic, although it's probably winding down (like Xmas itself, now that Boxing Day has come & gone).

nightbloom, I really think that your polemic is mostly comprised of DENYING the validity of arguments against your rhetoric. For instance, I think I have adequately shown that your accusations against the "Liberal-left" could just as easily be used against the "conservative, or even Conservative-right, and would thus be tantomount to a tautology--a statement which because of its equal opposing parts, tends to add NOTHING to the discussion. Again, your polemic seems always to be DENIAL. I think, if you can't supply evidence for your assertions, you should at least try to render them with some purely argumentative value. For instance, here's an EXAMPLE which I believe tends to give credence to my claim:

You claim you are not an apologist for religious beliefs, yet you supply me with names of a Jewish historian, Josephus, and a Roman historian and politician, Tacitus, in order to support the historicity of Jesus.

Furthermore:

You claim that you would be just as happy to retain your religious belief, even IF Jesus had never lived.

There is contradictioin in these positions, and, at best, one must conclude that you may not be operating in good faith (no pun intended, although I would agree with the double entendre implication).

Similarly, you supply the official positions of the Catholic Pope as well as some factor you refer to as the "GOD INSTINCT", while suggesting that WE don't really understand your position on religion, which you claim you have not STATED. (Can we not, justifiable conclude that you have, at least, some reverence for the Catholic religion?

Your argument regarding commercialism is also logically suspect, for you seem to be employing the tactic known as "straw dog"--the device of supplying an example for a given argument with which noone could really disagree, (or at least have little trouble beating the heck out of, as they would a straw dog) as evidence that your "a priori" position is, indeed, correct. The remedy for your assertion that whether we have Christmas (or not) to act as an enabler for human greed is that even if it were so, the argument against Christmas (and by implication religious worship) may yet BE A VALID ONE.

I think we can all agree, for instance, that MOST people like getting lots of stuff. There are those that think all this giving in rich countries to friends and relatives WHO DON'T REALLY NEED ANYTHING is quite disgusting when Canada, for instance, a nation of 30 million, uses more energy than India, a nation of 1 billion.

I believe that it might be more productive to rail against what I see as an embarrassing, disgusting event, than to try to tackle the basic problem of something so difficult as "human greed."

Perhaps, to better identify your "straw-dog", I doubt if anyone really believes that Christmas CAUSES greed; only that it ENCOURAGES it.

You're taking a few things out of context, and there are a few other points which I think I've already addressed.

Citing Josephus & Tacitus is not a statement of my *beliefs*. Those are historical sources, and I was responding to a point you raised. Citing the Pope's statements to clarify an institution's distinction between faith & science is likewise not a statement of belief on my part. It's an illustration of a point. There's a difference between historical and or scientific fact....and a system of beliefs (i.e. faith tradition) that extrapolates on those facts. I don't equate the two.

Now, now Truman - That's a little strong. It couldn't have been that bad, was it?

Perhaps Santa will be better to you next year... ;-)

Strong, you say? Seems about right to me. Your choice of a time for levity seems a bit suspect, nightbloom--notwithstanding Solomon's claim in Ecclesiastes that there is, supposedly, a time for everything. I don't recall him saying anything about when you can't think of good answer, though.

Of course, I'm not sure of that. Lemme see... I'll try it out sung to the tune of the Byrds' big hit: (circa l964 or so)

"There is a time, turn turn turn--when you can't think of a good answer turn turn turn.
Nope, it just doesn't seem to fit.

See ya and thanks for the debate. You may declare yourself the winner.

It's not about winning & losing, Truman. Your posts are often fascinating to read, and it's been a pleasure. I'm just not going to continually repeat myself & allow my particular belief system (or lack thereof) to become the subject of this thread. My opinions as stated can be taken at face value without further categorization. Besides, we've already flogged some of these tangential subjects to death on another thread.

Anywaze - it's been fun - Have a great New Years =)

skeptikool:

Good cannot exist without evil, just as black cannot exist without white, and yin without yang. Perhaps you are simply not attuned to "good". Or do not recognize it when you DO see it.....
Check out Edmund Burke:
http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Edmund_Burke/

Hey, Truman. What's up? Been away for awhile, drying out from all of that Christmas cheer... heads still in a fog, so don't think tank me too much when I say simply to an earlier question... God has to respect free will no matter what. Call it "keeping your word". No double standards, and its all top down, no? The guy at the top sets the example, true? Maybe God doesn't want zombies, eh? Otherwise, the whole exercise of life would be a complete waste of time. It would be like spitting out 5 billion cars with no drivers... boring.

As for the diverse species of life that we see, there will always be predator and prey at all levels of life from nano on up. It's not hard to see why, when you stop and think about it... population control. Survival.

The question concerning religion, outside of purpose itself, has always been simplistic. Are we creations? Or are we simply random flukes? If we are random flukes, there is no judgement and anything goes. If we are creations, it could still be the same, other than what our ancestors have tried to tell us about it... you know, judgement and ressurection and good and evil and all. But its deeper than this. If the theory of creation is true, it would mean that there is a purpose for everything, and too, perhaps some of these purposes have outlived their purpose for their own intended timeline, but who's to say... my own tenure on this planet if very short.

There is validity in role playing, to put yourself in Gods shoes, so to speak, although it wouldn't be wise to put words in his mouth. Other than this, when someone speaks unkindly or, well, doesn't even acknowledge one of your own family members, especially your own FATHER, well... its like this in long winded fashion. We've all got jobs to do. So does God. His gig is creation. The where fors and art thou reasoning for some of God's more imaginative designs blows my mind. It's beyond me.
To the Atheist, its not so beyond. Sparks of life with conditions just right... Changing environments, adaptation in order to survive or go extinct... that might work for someone who is intellectually proud enough to think that that's all it is, and it certainly wouldn't work for someone who is religiously proud, thinking its all a snap of a finger creation, until we all stop and think. Is there really a lifeform possessing a plausibly infinite timeline and potential that is capable of addressing changing environments with genetic adaptation built into most of its designed models of life? Could this lifeform also resurrect its own created models of life? It's a Ripley's believe it or not...

Knowing that we can only trust 3/4's of what we see (if that), and half of what we hear, sometimes seeing isn't believing. Sometimes, believing is also seeing, but you've seen negatives with this before as well... for we very often create what we believe, and, beliefs in something don't necessarily make it real. I've gone the latter route, Truman, and its worked for me, but only when I believed in something that was real to begin with, with the flexible plan to try using healthy blend of skepticism and openmindedness in the search of all truths, however simple or complex.

RickW,

Revisit my post. You attributed a quote to me that was taken from a post by nightbloom.

Award Nomination: Most pointless thread ever! Congratulations to those contributors above who seem to be able to natter on about nothing for hours.....IMO. Of course if I may so rudely interupt, It's been a while since my last confession...er contribution, rather... I've just got to get this weight off my back. You pompous bunch of zealots. No evil??? No good??? Does that mean no right or wrong either? If you freaks ever wake up the sleeping masses with your fuc*ing holy wars, snake oil, faith healing and continued assault on choice, be prepared to meet evil face to face. Nature rules, not you and your prayers and not your false idols. NATURE. You will pass through this life by the grace of nature. Let me spell it out for you. N-A-T-U-R-E. Not God, or Dog for you dyslexics. I have faith in nature to be here long after the human species is extinct, and then one day this planet will be gone. But the experiment of life will continue all over the galaxy and throughout the infinite universe, big bang or no big bang, expanding or contracting, whatfucking ever.... For you living here and now, I suggest you learn how to get along and fast, because evil is lurking and his sidekick is chaos. If they take control you will not only see evil, you will see savagery of the human species. You know survival, just as the brain outlined in the above post. Population control, survival. This planet used to enjoy a net gain in diversity, that is until we came along. The complex web of life, that means all life, together as one, as in Gaia, a cooperative. Not a competition. There is as much evidence for this as the survival of the species theorys crumble under ther own age. The evidence points to get along with not conquer the planet. Take out religion, and even the smallest child understands it. What off ramp on the road to enlightenment did you assholes exit on?

I had to read it a few times to get your jist, clubo, but I think it's a pretty decent piece and I agree with your many points.

I'm not sure your arrogance helps much, though.
Because if you're really trying to inform, most will just ignore you. I'd read just about anything placed in front of my eyes.

But, yeah, despite all the goofy religions and the "snake oil" and "assaults on choice," as you say, the world will go on without us. (But then, it's going to go on without us anyway. So I wonder how you resolve this. Your piece implies that there are real answers to our problem with mortality. Continue...eh!

And heaven knows I spent a whole week agreeing with you regarding the stupid theory of evolution on the "Lusting After the Apocalypse" thread.

"But the experiment of life will continue all over the galaxy and throughout the universe..."

Yes!

Suddenly, I think I get your drift. I SHOULD recognize it. It's all the stuff I've been trying to tell people most of my life.

Hello Truman,
Yes, you certainly had your hands full on that thread... But you reason very well... You're way out of my league on these subjects. I only speak the truth as I know it.

To try and answer your question.... We have as much right to this planet as the next species, we are a dominant life form on this planet, not out of place, just not in touch with our power. We have grown so dominant that we threaten our own survival. We could arm and detonate every nuke ever built and still, in time, life would flourish here. Just not with us. I believe we are defective or perhaps just a failed experiment. Is it genetics? Probably. But not in all humans, perhaps it's one of those mutations you touched on. Indigenous peoples for all of their history lived, for the most part in harmony with nature. The defective humans spread out and colonized the land and it's people. If you want to run parallel worlds and place bets on sustainability, who would you put your money on? The tribe with out the gunpowder that's who!

Why look for complexity where none is required? It's why I don't trust our common future. We enact new and more laws, to protect some new twist or loophole to be closed because some f-ing, power hungry lawyer with a big ego and a small penis... (If this is what you mean by arrogance, it's not. It's just a rant...) But it is true that most lawyers have tiny dicks and can't use them anyway... As you say, you get my drift. We either have a common experience denomintor or we don't. You are as intelligent as ten smart guys so I'm flattered you take the time to read my posts. For those who are unaware...? I can't help them from here. Even if they read everything I've written in the last year they still would only see a fraction of what I'm trying to convey, at least that's how it feels. If anything I hope the message is clear and consistant.

Can we reach sustainability? Sure, but not with the numbers in the Billions, not at these consumption rates. If and when the lucky one or two hundred million are given a chance to start again, they will require subsistance level skills, tools and knowledge to survive. Who has these skills now in this world of specialization? You see, the more you look into it, the more understanding you have of the scope of this undertaking. A return to a more modest life of living off the land. The futurists with all their space travel and technology are beyond my line of vision. I can't get past the fact that we need this planet more than it needs us. I'm even more amazed that most people don't see this as a problem.
Happy New Year Truman.