I think we need to have about 4 regional focussed debates rather than national ones. If we have to hear 3 more debates about nothing, which is really what this was, more of a public speaking tournament about broad ethical issues that really shouldn't even be part of our national debates. And yes, while I actually respect Duceppe, until I in BC can actually vote for a member of his party, its just a political strip tease.

You can look but you can't touch.

We blew it with Quebec when the Federal Government allowed Quebec provincial governments to set the criteria for education. After 30 years of separatist parties selected choices in what to teach the children of Quebec in terms of history and politics, one can easily connect the dots and say that when your first political science or social studies class begins with the teacher saying, "We've got to separate", it's not hard to accept the fact that there's some brainwashing going on here. Exaggerated truths, half truths, fallacies, lies... when will someone tell it straight and whole?
The Montgomery commission? 24 hours a day, seven days a week in Quebec. It's the most popular soap in town. On the one hand we've got a few Quebecois saying loudly "good for them stealing bastards to steal from Canada that stole from us." On the other hand, we've got a silenced voice trying to bleat... "when will our people vote for individuals instead of parties? If we could do this as an electorate, maybe, just maybe, the stealing would stop."

History speaks loudest on this last unspoken voice. We had Duplessis for twenty years hammer it to the Quebecois, "For God and Quebec, make as many children as we can." The Catholic and political pressure to do so was intense, so intense, it didn't matter if parents couldn't put shirts on their childrens backs or shoes on their feet. It was onions for supper and potatoes for breakfast. How hard it was in those days, but hey, to Francophones of this day, look around... do you see great wealth in the North in our native reserves? Do you not still see shacks people live in, in the country sides of the rest of Canada too? Is it still the 30's and 40's? To everyone, Phycics, profits and ordinary laymen alike... "We for the most part, only know what we are being told!"

And Steven Harper is looking mature? Any prime minister that can say that a government is doing poorly if its running big surlus's is completely out of touch with the commodity raw resource driven economy that we have today and in case we all haven't noticed, Oil, Gas and metals are up! Welcome to multi billion dollar surplus's! Welcome to windfalls! And sorry, Jack Layton, but welcome to 24% increases in pollution! Do we want the money, or do we want cleaner air? And last we checked, Federal spending is getting larger again, isntead of smaller, but what about the farmers with their 2 bucks for a 60 pound bushel of wheat and slowing softwood because of our rising dollar? The entire works is out of touch except maybe the guy who wasn't allowed to speak.
Our democracy and charter of human rights is one of pinnacles of what makes this country so great. Let's excercise it, and not just on Jan. 23rd. Let's excercise it when it comes to chosing leaders in parties actually are are in touch.
We've even got some time to develop East West trade for a change instead of a 85% North South trade with a country that has the largest debt in the world and borrows more than our entire Canadian Federal debt in 9 mere months for a population that is only 10 times larger than we are (if you can spell currency crisis, spiralling interest rates, collapsing equity in real estate, a major U.S. recession coming and some banks tumbling) with nothing to show for it but a bunch of burned out V-8's and T.V.'s. We're in a bubble, folks... as quickly as it goes up, it can come tumbling down.
Now's not time for apethetic, anarchist ways... it's the time to vote the bums out and put real people in! (But keep Ralph Goodale around... he's a money man too!)

To Dangrice: You've got that right. Gilles Duceppe is right about most things... just the one about leaving Canada.

Er, ah, to correct myself... EXCEPT the one about leaving Canada.

To the editor: I'm beginning to wonder... how many words and headlines are you changing, with the journalists that work under you? What is your own agenda? Are you trying to develop commentary... tweaking what you think is mistakes... get volume out there in terms of words, "make work when it's slow" and B rated... or are you just playing God with your own bias with some egotistical grand scheme to create more internet traffic at the great expense of those who have to read this.

The quote: "Harper. Getting better at it." I doubt if that was Rafe's idea. And it shouldn't be up to the guy with the pic's to come up with the quote. It's all top down, Mr. editor, with no one above scrutiny in journalism. We're watching. We know.

Nice to see you were paying attention, as usual, Raif.

I'm really tired of journalists who offer commentary on things they don't even pay attention too. I understand that Raif is writing an opinion column (more or less) but shouldn't you actually be paying attention to the things you're offering opinion on?

I mean, if you're not you might have missed the question about Fish Farms raif. Martin explained his bumbling by saying he'd never eaten wild salmon, only farm, and that the Chemicals in the fish make him incoherent; Harper thought Fish Farms were fine, as long as there were none behind the Alberta firewall and Layton was only interested in the Proletariat fish's fight against the Bourgeois farms.

These "Debates" are totally useless. No matter what the format used to date, they bring you to teeth grinding frustration.
Rafe's Friday morning debates were the incohearant rants of "whos to blame for past political mistakes" and the host's amusement. Nothing productive, dial turning time.
Questions must come from the floor of a live audience, chosen by a seat lottery for two combatants for a fixed time. And moved on.
The Greens need to show some electoral success for future inclusion. This bunch like the BC Liberals have hijacked a name but with a different position from the originals.

To "The brain": it is odd that people often blame their medias for brainwashing and yet the ROC media has not brainswhashed you about Quebec. Do you think you are really getting a fair perspective about Quebec in English Canada?

In regards to the 1st debate held in French, it was absolutely pathetic across the board, including the bloc for the point of view of a franco-colombian, if this matters at all. Ignorance of the second language perhaps can be bliss afterall.

Rafe, dead on. I had to watch them too, as I am hooked up to the Ipsos/Read polling firm. God, i mean they were horrible and so Canadian, boring as hell.

No, no we can't be impolite here, can't ask any important questions, the real questions that would make them squirm. That's why the Greens were not invited. Any party that registers enough votes to warrant Federal monies, should be invited.

I think the only loser will be Layton. Layton was turned into a nattering also ran, who had his microphone turned off for over speaking his time limit, too mny times.

This begs the question, this was not a real debate, but a well crafted, politically correct, two hour question and answer program, mainly to prop up a corrupt Liberal government, by an equally corrupt media.

Brain, you are beginning to sound like a pissed off Rafe Mair.

There appears to be something going on in the background here that we innocents are not fully attuned to.

As for the photo cutline, I ignored it initially because in my early morning vision I momentarily thought it was Svend Robinson staring out from the leadership position.

It was with deep disappointment that a finally noticed the bad haircut and recognized it was actually the guy who took over from Stockwell Day.

Oh well, another day.

As for the debates, I'm at a complete loss as to why anyone with an ounce of smarts would have agreed to have them at the same time most good little consumers are religiously paying their tithings to the advertisers, unless of course, you are hoping to slide through the election unnoticed.

I've watched every debate in the past 50 years and taped all since it was possible to do so, but I couldn't bear watching this one and probably never will watch any more in the future.

I feel sorry for anybody who needs these silly debates to make up his, or her mind whom to vote for. People who are that ignorant of the facts and issues don't really deserve the vote.

Note to "the brain": If you have any, why don't you try to use it? Look at the thousands of bald, little children in the hospitals around the world, with multiple cancers that didn't exist before, thanks to the great money making schemes and stockmarket gains. They and the millions of others are the victims who are paying the transferred costs of so called "wealth creation"

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

B.C. has greater reason to seperate than does Quebec whose bluff should have been called long ago.

If Quebec were to break the formal ties, I feel it would be better for the rest of Canada and Quebec. The reason? We can no longer afford the status quo, particularly the combined Ontario/Quebec interminable control of the outcome of Federal elections.

Sadly, we would break from a cultural oasis but, it is hoped, that it would be there to visit.

To Fiat Lux: It's coming. It's being published soon (by next fall). The most I can say at this point, is check out Rafes article and "brain" comments there. It's the most I can do for you now (I want to survive).

To Gaulois: Oh, I know what the Canadian view is, believe me. That's why its so important to change it. This country needs to heal to be the world leader it can be. It's not about provincial leaders who want more dough anymore, or soundbites that us smart guys become deaf to... it about the environments we live in, the ones that our great, great grandchildren will inherit. We won't stand much of a chance against what's going to happen down south of the border, (and possibly the world) bickering like little children who don't appreciate what we've already got.
Go to "Paul Martin sputters to life" commentary for more clarity.

I disagree on a few points,

The debate needs some tweaking but the format was better than last time. Who needs to see 4 people shouting at each other and making cheap shots etc, do we really want to see a self righteous Steven Harper or Duceppe calling
Martin a crook for 2 hours, their is much more going on than this Gomery inquiry and much more to lose, I liked the fact that the leaders had the time to express themselves and not have this tit for tat mentality. You want that go watch the
WWF on TV.

I also do not think the Greens deserve a spot, why should we pump a Party that has never won a seat and will not this time, they won't even garner 4% of the vote, if the work hard and get some seats than they get a spot on the debate otherwise were pumping a party that is non existent. (putting the buggy before the horse)

And the Bloc is a powerful party in this country and has the ability to do great harm if we like them or not, they carry
allot of power in the house and are vital to our national interest, they have the 3rd largest seat count and therefore
need a voice, I like some of their policies but I feel hiding them away from the public spotlight makes Quebecers more
resentful and the party stronger, could you imagine the free publicity it would be denying them a spot on the national stage. Beside I like what Jack said about the separation issue, the Bloc was only make stronger by the discontentment with the ruling party.

I have to agree with Fiat Lux. The debates are totally useless and provide no useful information about the parties or thier leaders. I think the elections act should be changed such that no campaigning and a total media ban be implemented 30 days prior to an election. Perhaps this would cause the electorate to actually think about who/what they are voting for.

Interesting article about the Greens on CBC web page this morning. Many of the allegations made in last weeks Tyee story seem to be substantiated.

Sorry Rafe, but with all these new restrictions and mic cutting abilities... no real debate will happen.

MacLean's LOVES the new structure!

Rafe Mair, your obsolescence is growing increasingly apparent.

The "hostess" for the evening was Trina McQueen, longtime journalist, Order of Canada recipient and former president of CTV.

As for Stephen Harper, his forced "grin" solidifies his status (in more ways than one) as a "Blue Meanie." Do an image search in Google to see what I mean.

It's not about cheap shots and one liners, it's about clear messaging and having the public compare the message with the actions. Like when asked about NAFTA or health care the
leaders got the chance to put forth their message and the public got a chance to compare
their words with their prior actions. We are out deeds, words are cheap compared to our
deeds.

Compare Gordo and his promised vs. what he actually did , we know know he is a scumbag liar while others like his agenda of dishonesty. It comes down to the fact who do we trust based on their deeds and actions. What valued do we hold dear etc, saying I am going to clean up a mess is not stating a clear value. Like when you drive threw customs going to the US the officer asked you clear direct questions and you answer. They are BS detectors and pull over people, we are the BS detectors, ask yourself who based on their actions is being the most honest and who's eyes are brown. Can anyone suggest a better format how about a knife fight, more shouting, more interruptions,

Sorry about the typo's very busy today

Real roaring laughter feels so good sometimes. For this today I think Ed Deak whose patience snapped over one-too-many lectures by "the brain -- if you have any" -- thanks, Ed. Biyha makes me think we were incoherent until he/she came along. <>

My browser jams up at a certain point in the threads so I couldn't get back on board yesterday after bontano said this most amazing thing:

So Biyha and Bontano, could you explain to us how Green-Jim Harris' day job is training corporate CEOs to get the most mileage out of their industries while at the same time he is posing as leader of the party which is "about saving the earth from our industrial influences."

two days of political infomercials, but certainly no debate

Thanks for your valuable contribution to debate Fred and Ethel, people skills 101, have a point.

The brain wrote,

No, we blew it with that silly "notwithstanding clause". A Canadian is a Canadian, and should be treated the same in any province. I know it is unpopular to say, but the Federal government needs to have more power at the expense of the provinces.

Let's face it, Alberta looks so "rosey" because of oil. In reality, this oil should belong to all Canadians.

However, as Canadians we get so hung up on our geography, even though technology has nearly conquered it.

If I hear of western alienation again, I will... I will.... I don't know what I will do.

Bah!

allan,

You sure got that right!

The scary thing about these debates is that all are searching and hoping for that one quotable, sabre-cutting, bumper sticker of a winning snippet, and that the worst one for Canada may be the one who pulls it off.

Admittedly, that says little for the electorate.

I hear you Moat.

Whenever I hear the typical fanciful yarn of the Land of Milk and Honey just across the great referendum divide where westerns will get best and the rest get what's left, I ask myself 'what's this guy's real agenda'?

These were the first 'debates' I didn't bother sitting through. I watched only for a short while. I prefer an exchange of real ideas even if it means a shouting match. I would prefer a fist fight as they do in the Korean legislature if it meant some people cared about this country and stood up to the traitors. This 'debate' was nothing more than a press release. Boring.

Raif, you dismiss Layton's ideas as empty and easy to say because he will not form gov't. This is not true. His ideas are valid and also ones we used to live with and embrace until this latest wave of colonization that threatens us all.

First of all it’s bizzare that Mair would suggest Duceppe not be included in the debates and the Green party should… the BQ are the 3rd party with the most seats in the Commons and poll nationally at about the same level as the NDP. Even if all their support is in Quebec, all of Canada has an interest in knowing where the BQ stands on various issues other than sovereignty – after all they might hold the balance of power in a minority government. They might even at some point be the official opposition. And we all benefit from Duceppe’s participation, for although few outside Quebec support his separatist agenda, he is one of the best, most astute and charismatic politicians this country has. He definitely has kept the liberals on their toes in Quebec, and promotes the interests of his constituency with an effectiveness than makes most other Canadian politicians look like amateurs.

On the other hand the Green party under Jim Harris seems to have transformed from a real Green party to a corporate Greenwash party. In spite of various conspiracy theories, credible reports in the press have exposed deep divisions in the Green party as a result of Harris’ authoritarian leadership and other disturbing issues. One is left with the impression that Harris is nothing more than a washed up Conservative with greed and opportunism as his main driving force – we have enough of those, so no thanks.

Like many Canadians, for a while I considered supporting the Greens as a way of promoting an alternative to the tired old politics as usual. But in the last election both the Sierra Club and Greenpeace rated the NDP environmental platform higher than the Green’s – to say that this looks bad for an environmental party would be an understatement. This combined with Harris’s leadership and their internal squabbles makes it very difficult to see how anyone, right or left, socialist or capitalist, could seriously support this party.

So good to see Harris was kept out of the debates. Better he first get his party in order and develop a first rate, coherent environmental platform. Better yet I hope the Greens manage to get rid of Harris and return to their roots.

I think they should set up a series of head-to-head debates, and voters can watch whichever ones interest them. If most voters outside Quebec choose not to watch the ones with Duceppe, fine. Then, also, if any individual leader wanted to agree to debate Jim Harris, Miguel Figueroa, Sandra Smith, or anyone else he (or she?) could. Some voters would be interested in watching, some wouldn't.

No one alters my articles except as to grammatical errors and, unhappily, sometimes the editor doesn't even do that.

I would not write or broadcast for anyone that censored me. One of the great things about writing for thetyee is that you know there is no need to self censor except in matters of possible defamation.

As to the hostess - no journalist worthy of the name should take prizes from the government. They don't give OCs to the likes of Stevie Cameron, Claire Hoy or any who go outside the limits of dissent permitted by the "establishment".

Rafes point about Harper having the gay mariage albatros hanging on his neck and Martin with the sponsorship crimes is a good one.
I would rather be Steven Harper looking perhaps a little old fashioned than Paul Martin who is trying to explain that he doesn't actually head up a criminal organization called The Liberal Party of Canada.
There is much more corruption on the horizon if we vote for these Liberal crooks.
Only you can change things.

I should have added ... no one who actively opposed Meech Lake/Charlottetown has, to my knowledge received an OC or OBC. You may recall that the Companions of the Order took out full page ads supporting Chartlottetown as a matter of patriotism. At least two of the Companions, Brian Mulroney and Joe Clark repeatedly called into question the patriotism of those of us who. like nearly 67% of British Columbians opposed it. I have tried for years to get an OBC for Mel Smith and unlike the OC, they can be awarded posthumiously. The ommittee ort whatever it cals is=tself, just doesn't respond.
I was able to say at his funeral that Mel deserved both honours but he could rest in peace since Cato the elder answered the question thusly - I would rather have people asking why there is no statue to me than why there is one.

allan wrote

It is killer how so many make thier political statements by dividing people. This country was built because of compromise, but yet we are unable to accept that compromises always have some weaknesses. I guess that is why we call them "compromises".

Should the Liberals be punished? You bet! But at the risk dividing and losing the country?

This election day is going to be painful.

Drinking?! At this hour Rafe! ;-)

Interesting about the OC appointments... does Peter Newman have one?

I never watched the debates, as it was obvious the format and what others had to say about it,the end result would be BORING.
I agree wholeheartedly with others who have said,why is the Bloc being given time (except Martin needs them)( and the TV media need the revenue ensuing)when they are not a National Party,and do not want to be.
Too bad you missed a pleasnt dinner Rafe.
Its debateable whether your sacrifice was needed.
You could have ignored the debates and chosen to write an article on why the Basi/Virk question hasn't become a challenge for Martin to explain,re: Liberal memberships,and the (Liberal)Courts are keeping it in abeyance until another election is over

etc., etc., etc......

My point in bringing up Trina McQueen's credentials was not to debate the legitimacy of the Order of Canada.

If you ask me, B & S are the only initials that belong behind the name of any mainstream media type.

But let's agree Rafe Mair that your claim not to know the moderator's name is either lazy reporting or lame-ass, old boy reporting that still manages to pass as journalism in the anacronistic, coffee-breath tainted studios where you've plied your trade for the past 150 years.

I'm sure Bert and Mavis and the rest of your bridge club or whomever find it hugely amusing to refer to Ms. McQueen as marm-ish. I just don't think it's relevant reportage and I'm quite sure you'd be at a loss to come up with similar criticism were the moderator a man.

Forgive my harsh delivery but you speak from a powerful and coveted pulpit (God knows, there seems to be no escaping you) and might perhaps consider using it less recklessly.

It is to be certain that the Liberal friendly media in Canada will not ask the hard questions, or do any real scut work for any reaL investigative reporting. Too worried that they may pass up a chance for a OC!

Just look at Brand-X, the pitches are so so slow, that one can have a nap in between. The Van. Sun is no better and old Cromie must be spinning in his grave as to what the Sun has become.

The media in Canada has become soft and we are the poorer for it. The Tayee, Straight & Potvin's little rag, are about the only true independant papers around!

Oh, was that was her name, soon to be forgotton too!

Moat,

Strange, for one with such a pseudonym - or maybe it isn't one. ;-)

When a Seperatist is included in the debate. it should not be surprising that alienation and/or seperation is discussed in the thread.

Grumpy wrote: The media in Canada has become soft and we are the poorer for it. The Tayee, Straight & Potvin's little rag, are about the only true independant papers around!

Consider that the Vancouver Sun, the Georgia Straight and the Vancouver Courier "independently" officially backed the NPA. Lest we forget.

Alex Waterhouse-Hayward

Re MacQueen, OC. My point was how she looked and sounded as she patronizingly dealt with the panel.

re into the sauce ... heh, heh, I was seeing if the editor was on his toes.

It was a lousy format which begat pretty pallid performances. The PM's assault on Duceppe - much deserved I might add - was obviously re-hearsed as were most of the answers. This is what happens when you nannnies scold politicians for raising their voice or over-riding the mike. If you don't want set piece answers, let 'em loose on each other. The candidate who overdoes his enthusiasm will be penalized by the voters. If you want carefully prepared positions where the opportunity of another to cross examine is limited by the luck of the draw, stick with the OC lady and the media format

from rafe:

Something worth quoting again and again. What a pity there is a need to - as evidenced by much NOT discussed.

More self-censorship on THIS - anyone?

I forgot the question on Newman. He is a Companion and we had very nasty words during Charlottetown on the fact of what is supposed to be a non politicial "order", taking a very political position ... I thought then and think now that it was disgraceful ... it made it appear the "good Canadians" were on side and that you had to have the fires of treason in your belly to even ask questions - which is all I did until I got tired of waiting for answers.
Peter and I have made up - one of my last shows on 600AM was on his book about Mulroney. But I've never forgiven the establishment which went coast to coast, for trying to shut down debate with cries of treason.

I wear the scars very proudly indeed.

Rafe, The one question that comes to mind in listening to your observations is :... Have you ever ever given it any thought that you maybe..., just maybe got it wrong on the Charlottetown accord... ?

Skeptikool,

I know, I know, but I thought the irony could slip by. Never thought the pseudonym would get in my way!

Skitikool wrote

However, should Duceppe even be at a Vancouver debate? The Bloc does not even field candidates in other provinces.

But we, as a country simply want to live in an ongoing constitutional crisis. This is why Chretien and his pals deferred so much to the Supreme Court. An unelected bunch, but at least a bunch not thinking in four year terms.

The threat of Quebec seperation and western alienation continues to keep us in a dysfunctional mode. Think about how healthy personal relationship are when one person is always threatening to leave!

Lest we forget what? Just cause you don't agree with them doesn't make them less independent.

As to your new found freindship with Peter Newman . I recall a fascinating evening when he gave a public lecture on the fate of canada.. asking the rhetorical question at one strategic moment of his presentation..., asking with all of the flair and drama that he could muster... will canada survive ?, to which he responded with a RESOUNDING
MAYBE!

A delightfull memory ,of a great moment when an engaged citizen tackled a question head on.!.

The reason I bring this up is that I felt throughout the lecture that Peter gave..,- as I do with your stand on the survival of this country - that neighter seems to have ... a sense of the deeper roots of this country *..

There is a glimpse at times of both seeing the forest and at times the trees... but neighter seemed , in my experience of both of you , able to get at the deeper roots of the question of canada .., , and thus is the reason for my previous posting and the questions that I pose...,

The other is , since you run into Peter now and then.., hoping that you will pass on these observations to him.. so that one day.. both can respond*..

No points for wooden-grinned, epoxied-hair, man-titties, gay-bashing, yanqui loving Harper. Less for Panamanian-flag-flying, public-purse-thieving, dithering, disingenuous Martin. Duceppe has no relevance. In other words, a great big yawn all around. Keep the crooks or become so inextricably aligned with the Bushites we'll need to order up a bunch more body bags (from Halliburton, of course, at inflated prices)? Some choice! It's sad that the only leader who enunciates a decent agenda is considered an also-ran? Jack Layton has the best vision, the most coherent and humane platform, and represents what is good about Canada, and I've yet to see anything in the media, polls included, which gives him more than a snowballs chance in hell. I'm with Rafe on this one - insipid would be a compliment to these debates.

After an half hour of watching the _________ (it was not a debate, I am searching for a word to describe what I saw and heard) I left the TV on and walked down the hall to my computer station. I'm as addicted to political debates as a fish is to water but like a fish in a lake without food I headed up a creek in search of more nutritious waters.

From the end of the hall the four leaders of Canada's sick political parties sounded like a drunk trying to tape an election advert. I felt insulted; as insulted as most of the people of Quebec felt when the rest of the supposedly True, North, Strong and Free re-elected the blatantly corrupt Liberals less than two years ago.

If we are to prevent Quebec from leaving our country soon the traditionally Liberal voters of our country will have to suddenly come to their senses and switch their allegiance to the NDP. Fat chance, I know. The Conservatives ought to be party to turn to in such a circumstance as our country now faces but for far too many that party is too bedevilled with redneckisms to consider.

Thank you Preston Manning for not fully considering the unthought of consequences of giving political voice to those a lot of us will never, never listen to.

And I guess the word I was looking for above is farce.

Jack Webster was made a Member of the Order of Canada. How does he stack up, Rafe?

On the CBC.ca, heading "Canada Votes 2006" sub heading "Harper promises Quebec greater roles in International affairs", Harper states his intentions to give Quebec a greater voice internationally then they already have, and wants to reopen the constitution one more time. Is there a voter out west who really wants this? (Besides western separatists... yawn)
Do we really have to go over the legal implications of "two distinct societies" one more time? It paves the way to separation.

"All any Federal leader has to do to create a climate of separation, is to treat one province separately or unequally to all of the rest." uh... Allan. You can quote me.

To the editor: Thankyou.

To RAFE: Thanks for the clarity Rafe, and... my apologies. I'm glad you put a muzzle on my own somewhat falsely based suspicions concerning editorial censorship. (Geez... it might not be a bad place to work...)

Hey, the Sun and Courier are owned by the 'Asper' press (notice that the Courier seldom writes anything about RAV). So the Straight supported SamWise, very luke warm support at best. Many left leaning people did not want Green elected! Maybe the Straight reflected it.

I read the Seattle papers regularily and they certainly have much more real 'news' than the Sun.

Back to the debate, the CBC is defending the debate format, even though viewership was down by almosr 50%. To typical of the CBC to defend p**s poor TV!

What I find interesting is that if there was some relation to percentage of votes to seats- the Bloc would not have the influence that they do, and the New Democrats would have more. In my view, another weak point of FPTP.

'Jack Layton has the best vision, the most coherent and humane platform, and represents what is good about Canada,'. and he sells used cars on the side. he also has a nice wife named jenny kwan, er... olivia chow.

Is Stockwell Day running in this election? Are we going to have someone in parliament that believes people and dinosaurs co-habitated?

If you want to know what really drives politicians, you have to look at what they did and said before they got into politics. That being said, Harper is a scary man.

What's the difference between Elliot and a catfish, ones a scum sucking scavenger and the other is just a fish.

When Elliot was born the doctor slapped the farther.

How many Elliot's does it take to elect one Steven Harper. Not sure , how many folks attended the red neck convention this year.

Sorry folks , just trying to relate to Elliott on his intellectual level.

I don't know what you folks are expecting from the debate, you basically judge the leader by his actions and compare what he says and decide who is BSing or not. Like when Harper says he won't send troops to Iraq and only
a year ago he was apologizing on FOX NEWS( Elliot's favorite news source) for Canadians not going and saying most Canadians love war.

4 guys shouting at each other is hardly good TV, who wants to see that. Maybe this format as far as asking the question but then open up debate for rebuttals, have a 30 second uninterrupted chance to respond.

It gets even better than that Chris H

2 conservatives running, Silver in North Van and one in the valley have close ties with Focus on the Family a right wing fundamentalist Christian group that helped BUSH get the vote out. They have both mused publicly about abortion and gay marriage. Just shake the bushes if you think Stockwell is scary, your just scratching the
surface.

I just read in the National Post where Stockwell day is up Northern Alberta with some water skidoo buddies of his trying to dig up dinosaurs so he can examine the contents of their stomachs, eh--and prove for the last time that they did indeed eat people, so everyone will stop laughing at him. Stephen Harper's paying for the trip, apparently.

Oye, he's my MP and let me tell you, he's freaking useless. And I'm not saying that because he's a con. He's literally done SQUAT for his riding.

Is Stockwell Day running in this election?

Are you kidding? This the the best job those free enterprisers in the conservative party have ever had!!

Yeah, he's running.

I love folks like Stockwell, they showcase the party the best , you know the party that needed progressive removed from their name.

Hey just for fun, start emailing the Stockwell Day types asking them critical social issue questions, or questions on immigration when it comes to Stockwell, sometimes you get an outrageous response, forward this response
to all MSM and showcase the party.

Some sample questions.

1) Dear Stock, I am thinking of voting for you and I represent a large voter block etc and want to clarify some issues. The rumor has it you do not agree with the Charter on several issues, could you clarify this for me.

2) .....Do you really think humans walked the earth with Dinosaurs or is this just a silly rumor.

3) Why should your religion give you more rights than me, please explain.

4) What do you think our militaries roll should be,

Come on folks just for fun, start shaking the bushes, your find in inner Ron Erwins come out.

Your leader Steven Harper did a actual news report for FOX NEWS apologizing for our non participation in Iraq and said that Canada really should be their. What's your take on that, do you agree.

Only Jack can answer re his OC. He was out of broadcasting by the time of Charlottetown.

To an earlier writer, I have no doubt in my mind that I was right on Charlottetown ... which doesn't make it so, of course.

I read a really good piece in MacLeans... which I don't think I'll ever buy again.. well maybe.. anyway, it was on Haiti and how Canada has been meddling there for years and never seem to do any good because it is a half-assed commitment to the place.
Think that'll be my question as a concerned voter.

We were the only ones in the world when Rhuawanda genocide went down... and again, in small numbers. I guess a half "A"ssed effort is better than a no show, but... its still half "A"ssed. I would love to see the day when our mere presence in porcelain sittyations causes shame within those who oppress freedom, poverty and peace. Whe need a complete "A" team for a change... I'm beginning to see why Paul Martin is spending on the military.

I liked what Paul Martin had to say about Ethanol plants yesterday as well.

Ethanol ? Martin wants to mandate fuel producers to include 5% ethanol in transportation fuels. In Canada ? How cute.
Isn't that kinda like mandating bottled water producers to use 5% recycled water in our Dosani ?
What a silly idea.
The real issue is that The Liberal Party of Canada is still spending some of the booty they stole from us in the sponsership crime to finance this election campaign.
Please don'e re-elect this crooked government.

hey stuey-boy; one thinks you could at least come up with some funny stuff. that was lame. i guess these things happen when you grow up with a name like stuey.

Well, this was an interesting thread appended to a lackluster effort by Ralph. (Even Ron Erwin stuck to actually discussing the issue at hand. Good on yah Ron.) Interesting that is until little elliot spewed his racist and/or sexist bile, and his predictable flaming. The lameness on this board looks you in the mirror little elliot. Try sharpening your crayon and putting a thought together to add to the discussion. You might even enjoy that effort.

On the piece by Ralph, not much to comment on really. So I am a little surprised at the length of the comments. A crappy public relations event could not on its own stir even this board. My guess is that there is a deep sense of unease in BC. My expectations are that Ontario will maintain its stanglehold on the country by returning a lieberal government, possibly a majority but likely a minority. So, what to do as a strategic voter? A vote for Harper's mouth-breathers is wasted. A vote for Laytons centrist party may at least provide some protection from the far right of the lieberals, should a minority government be the result. Just, please, don't ask me to watch another of these phony exercises in democracy.

still smarting from that jenny kwan/olivia chow remark wally-boy? the truth hurts don't it big fella? it's easy to tell when you lefties can't counter. call your opponent a sexist or a racist or a homophobe or a fattist. it's very old and very boring wally, much like you.

Do a little research before you spew, Ron. Adding ethanol at even 5% reduces tailpipe emissions in the average car by 20%. It is over 30% at 10% ethanol. It is ideally suited for Canada's climate and raises octane considerably.

I use Mohawk ethnaol blend in all my gasoline powered machines. For one thing, you get 90 octane for the price of 87. Secondly, it is a Canadian company. It also prolongs the life of the catlytic converter Why not support Canadian farmers by using ethnol, Ron/ My wife's little car had the lowest Aircare readings I have ever seen and that in a 14 year old car that is on its origional catcon.

Ron, do you dryclean your pointy hat to get it so stiff looking?

Well Working Man I guess we are both fools.
Steven Harper endorsed this idea , as well, this morning.
So I guess he's not that stupid is he ?

Elliot,

I hate respond to your trollish behavior, but I'm going to take the bait.

"still smarting from that jenny kwan/olivia chow remark wally-boy? the truth hurts don't it big fella?"

What truth are you talking about Elliot? For such a genius you seem to have trouble making a point.

"it's easy to tell when you lefties can't counter. call your opponent a sexist or a racist or a homophobe or a fattist. it's very old and very boring wally, much like you."

Counter what? If I could figure out what the hell your comment even means maybe I could come up with a fitting label for you.

Is that you think all asians look the same? Are we supposed to find your juvenile taunts amusing? Provocative? For some who claims to be Justin Tredeau's intellectual superior you read pretty Neanderthal.

Thanks to Duceppe we may yet have a real debate, not some half baked skewed meeting, such as the ones that we were silly enough to sit and endure for two long hours.
Should the powers to be, attempts the same stupid format for the next set of meetings, surely the only ones watching will be the TV camera people along with Tieleman and his buzzed cohorts.

Now Ronny, you really need to consult with the Grand Wizard before you post here anymore. I am a supporter of ethonol gasoline and have used it for years. When Martin said he was for it, you hated it. When Harper also endorsed it, you were all for it.

Where did I say Harper was stupid? He is anything but. That is what makes him so dangerous.

So, who is the fool, Ron?

I don't think we need an ethanol blend in this country. We are so spread out and our population is insignifigent.
I mean if it doesn't cost any more money for the producers, then fine
So I guess I disagree with Harpers me too tactic, and I guess you agree with it.
Two fools.

Wrong again, Ronnie. Two thirds of the population of Canada lives between Windsor and Quebec City. Toronto had its worst smog season on record this year. Further, ethanol now costs C$42 a barrel to produce, making it cheaper than oil. It is renewable and helps farmers.

Like I said, Ron, you really need to consult with the Grand Wizard before you mouth off in such a silly manner. Is it any wonder your party of Right Wing-nuts cannot form a government?

Thanks, verso, but Holy crap, little elliot contributes nothing of substance to any thread that he arrives upon. I know the definition of troll on the web, but the definition as I understand it requires a level of intelligence that I have not seen from little elliot.

When I call little elliot on his racist/sexist beliefs, he thinks that no one remembers his earlier posts, so he deflects by thinking he is returning fire. To wit:

"call your opponent a sexist or a racist or a homophobe or a fattist."

Sorry little elliot, your own words tell the world what a racist/sexist loser you truly are. Here is little elliot's own post, his own words in a thread on Harper:

"is olivia chow any smarter than jenny kwan? or is she using the feminist ethnic vote to her advantage like little jenny, the decorative lampshade with the bulb burnt out, has been doing for oh so many years?"

Unlike you little elliot, I do not need to deflect. I am confident that your words mark you as a racist/sexist loser.

Just to show that I am not unreasonable, I post here several of little elliot's deep thoughts in response in anticipation of little elliot's response to my own post above. No need to thank me little elliot, I am sure that other readers will. All quotations courtesy of little elliot, racist/sexist troll.

“blather blather blather...walmart sucks...boring boring boring...fight the man...blah blah blah...get a life.”

“what a crock of shite. "who cares?”

"who cares?”

“you're whacked”

“don't you lefties ever get tired of the cliches?”

"wallace; you're a blowhard."

Your welcome little elliot.

Your missing it Ron... again. Ethanol is one of the answers needed with a high canadian dollar hurting grain exports and current $2 buck a bushel wheat. Grain farmers that are forced by law to sell wheat to the government can't even break even growing hard red spring wheat, or durum or any other kind of grain, for that matter with today's current grain prices. Quotas for the sale of wheat and durum, once a farmers staple, have been cut dramatically. (50% to 75% of last years contracts) Alchohol plants would ensure a rise in domestic consumption that is otherwise, non existent when compared to exports, killing our own markets here and abroad.

Considering that each bushel of wheat can produce approx. 17% alchohol, and considering that 17% of 60 pounds produces 10 pounds, or one gallon of alchohol, the math is sound in assuring that domestic consumption of wheat would produce a bottom commodity value of $3 bucks a bushel for wheat, barley and durum, before processing, if today's oil prices hold.

Its better for the environment our consumers have to live in, and its a whole lot better for the farmers east and west who grow grain knowing its another year in the red for conventional farmers before they've even remotely begun to think about any personal expenses.
If you farm, Ron, you would like the idea regardless of who brings it into legistation because the idea is drastically needed in today's current energy and grain commodity climate. It's not the answer to CO2 greenhouse emissions, but it is with reducing sulpher pollution emissions (acid rain), and in helping to put a ceiling on current gas prices until better, more sustainable eco plans take hold within future crown and private corporate alternatives to replace the consumption of green house gases with cleaner sources of energy over time. The mash left over is still feed for pig farms, I might add, so its a win win there too.

Take this Green's word for it. It's a win win proposal, regardless of who is responsible in getting it to legislation. The only thing I'm not comfortable with is that it should be more like 10%, instead of 5%, but we currently don't have the capacity to reach 5% yet, so its a good place to start and the risk, of course, is that the diversion of grain markets from export to domestic consumption will create higher grain prices globally, so 5% is a good place to start.

Currently, there are a number of Alchohol startup proposals waiting on the table for this to happen across the country, especially in the grain belts out west. At some point, Ron, you're going have to stop shooting every good idea down, just because the PC's didn't come up with it first. Do you really think that the PC's are responsible throughout history, past and present for every good thing that's happened to this country? C'mon.

The only thing you can fault the Libs for with this one is that they didn't come up with it sooner... but then again, a high Canadian dollar is likely to stay. And the fact remains... the PC's didn't come up with it at all.

RE: Alchohol demand would create a $2.50 bottom a bushel for barley... its a 48 pound bushel.

Well written, Brain. I use Mohawk 10% blend in every gas powered machine I use, from my wife's car to the sand-tamping maching and am trying to get a decent supply of bio-diesel but so far no luck.

Please, however, do not try to confuse Ron withe the facts. If we didn't use enthanol in 1955, we don't need it now. Heck, we need leaded gas again, right, Ron?

(chuckles)

Biodiesel is even more viable for the feds to create production initiatives. Flax and Canola are both 57% and 47% oil that can be pressed relatively cheaply. Considering that Flax is a 52 pound bushel and Canola is 58lbs (I could be wrong on these figures, but I'm in the neighborhood), and each bushel is capable of producing 2.5 gallons or more of oil or "biodiesel", (I'm not wrong about that one) one has to wonder why we aren't creating initiatives to build bio diesel plants as well. Again, it protects our oilseed market from collapsing and protects our farmers from going broke, while ensuring better results for our environment. Finally, the question of availability and stable diesel prices for farmers and truckers is solved in one fall swoop.

The beautiful thing about biodiesel is that if its cut with 10% alchohol and properly mixed, there are no alterations needed on existing diesel motors, as its octane levels are the same with conventional diesel and its a wonderfully needed failsafe once again, for high canadian currencies, tanking oilseed commodity values and supply issues domestic, or abroad.
It doesn't help the CO2 problem, but it does shift us into the right direction with environmental concerns and global paradigms.

Actually, diesel uses the diametric opposite of octane, which is cetane. Octane is the resistance of a fuel to compression ignition. The higher the octane number, the higher the resistance.

Cetane is the opposite. Diesel uses air that is highly compressed to the point of superheating, when the fuel is directly injected in the cylinder. It the combusts due to compression. The cetane number of regular #2 diesel is around 40.

If two thirds of the population live in the Toronto/ Windsor area, then let them, if they have a guilt trip, pay a premium for ethanol, if that's what make them feel good.
But don't ask me to support their contention that we humans have any significant influence on world conditions.\ Now if we can make a buck out of it. With our abundance of biodegradable material, fine.
But we all know we could never get our act together to do that.
Not in a Canada that spends 30 Billion dollars a year on regulations according to small business estimates.
That figure is approx. how much the tax collector gets from GST.

Working man: Thanks for the clarity. All I know is, as it has explained to me in practical purposes, is that we need to give biodiesel an alchohol mix of 10% roughly, to give it more pop. Without alchohol added to biodiesel, a regular diesel motor won't start, but there is a way around it, with a separate tank to get the diesel motor moving and warm, and then flip tanks to straight biodiesel. I haven't looked into the tech yet of the fuels (or, well, just plain forgot), just going by what I've been told and looked into the manufacturing feasabilities of introducing it to the markets. With diesel selling at 4 bucks a gallon, and Canola or Flax dipping below 6$ a bushel, its feisable, more feisable than alchohol.
The problem is, if oil comes down in value, so does the stock in such ventures... but the opposite is just as true. Hey Ron... I'll tip you on the underwriter to call when the time comes, on the account of you liking to make money and all, but only if you quit kissing those ass kissing PC buddies of yours on the Tyee, and no guarantees. Its 1 to 2 years away and alot can happen in between, especially with commodities and politics. Goin once...

Ummm, Ronnie-boy, ethanol is C$42 a barrel and oil sells for $US58 a barrel at the moment. Ethanol is actually cheaper than oil. At the pump here in Vancouver, it is exactly the same price as regular unleaded and is 33 octane points better.

Check some facts before you spew, Ron. You are embarrasing the Grand Wizard.

Make that 3 octane points better, 90 vs 87 (RON+MON/2).

A clean break for Quebec from the rest of the
country would be, I'm sure, as clean a brake as
the aboriginals will be.
Six months after seperation, the feds will be handing out billions more of our taxes to keep
Quebecios afloat and it will not stop.
So, let them seperate ? Give your head a shake !

netscaper2 Transfer payments, subsidies, Ad scams will then be referred to as Foreign Aid.

Revised
netscaper2--- Transfer payments, subsidies, Ad scams, will all then be referred to as Foreign Aid.