Politics in Canada is a mess. In the first instance, none of the leaders have been successful in providing a vision for Canada. Secondly, it appears that the public simply does not trust any political party in any significant degree. Thirdly, promises by politicians never seem to translate into what the people really want.

Rafe may be right in the x factor, however I doubt we will see any landslide by any party outside of Quebec.

It is a mess, no doubt.

No Rafe it's not that easy for the Tories to get of the gay-marriage hook. If a candidate comes to my door and cannot or will not answer my question on HOW he/she will vote on the free vote question; well there is my answer.
The so called "X" factor to me is; who will win, fundamentalist christians or bottom-line capitalists. The social democrats may hold the referee's whistle, nothing more.

Rockyvoids,

True, and I will ask my candidate the same thing, but whether you are for or against gay marriage, there are many who simply aren't going to look at that as an election issue.

I think the best place to go with this election is medicare. The NDP and Liberals simply need to keep saying that Sephen Harper wants American style medicare. And, when he denies it, they say it again, and again, and again. Eventually it will become the big issue and no one will believe Harper's denials. That is how to win the election.

I think Rafe is right on this one. Anyone who has had a brush with our medicare system lately, knows it's broken - and maybe broken beyond repair.

Please let me relate a recent story. My 80 year old mother was in need of an emergancy operation for a massive infection of the eye. She was told to report to VGH's emergancy dept. at 10 am. She is diabetic and suffers from mild dementia. She was not called for the operation until past 7pm! No food, no drink for 9 hours. We were told to go home as she was in pre-opt care. The next day we were called at 11 am to pick her up. She had an eye removed. Not only she was sent home 17 hours after the procedure, there was no follow up!

She was left to live or die at home!

Is this the best we can do? Our medical system is an abatoir for the elderly, it is disgusting and throwing more and more money at it won't solve a thing.

Medicare was never designed to be a cure all, but now the wealthy get first class treatment, because they can use any system they want, while the middle class get 2nd rate, yet very expensive health care!

The Liberlas and NDP just want to throw more money at it, at least with Harper there may be realistic discussion on the subject, not rah, rah jingoism.

The conservatives may win a minority, just because Canadians are fed up with the status quo.

And look Harper is now talking income splitting, now there is real talk and tax savings for the middle class, oh sorry, the middle class with famillies.

Excellent analysis. I will be voting Conservative as I believe and hope the latter. Harper and the majority of the conservative caucus are actually social moderates. They have never campaigned on social issues. They have campaigned on taxes, accountibility, the economy, the military and International relations.

Harper is an economist, and this party when it comes down to it is a pro-business party first.

The Liberals have done a very effective job of painting the Tories as a bunch of raving social conservatives - and guys like Randy White haven't helped the cause.

Remember, the Tories are a pro-choice party and favour the notion of gay civil unions. This is not a neo-fanatical party. In fact, their party policies are not that out of touch with the majority of Canadians.

Harper is a fanatical maniac, without any conscience, as long as he can fulfill his ideological madness. Yes, he's an economist allright, but a neoclassical one, which makes him the ultimate worst kind, on level with the madness of Stalin's economists, killing millions around the globe.

Before the 1958 elections the prints of 2 white footsteps, with the slogan "Follow John" appeared on inner city street corners across Canada, which, according to claims, played a role in Diefenbaker's majority.

Perhaps the Conservatives, or whatever the Reform bunch is called today, should repeat the gimmick with the slogan "Follow Fisheye"?

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

What politician today is not a fanatical maniac? I guess it's ok to give millions or in the case of Bombardier Inc. billions in tax money, the public's money. Layton is no better, he wants to spend billions on Canada's auto industry, because the parent American companies were too stupid to produce fuel efficient cars!

The proble is simple, the public, except for 1 day in 2 to 5 years, by voting, have absolutely no say in how our country is run.

I have great problems with the conservatives, but greater ones with the Liberals and the NDP!

The fact is, not one of the major parties, 'turn my crank', in fact they all should be put in jail for treason!

Canada has turned into a Banana Republic North, with tweedle dee and tweedle dum running for office. (Sorry the NDP just don't count anymore)The BQ, are the only politcal party in Canada that actually has a vision, they want to take Quebec out of this madness. Good God, and we wxpect this country to survive?

But the Moonies.....

(And by extension the Rovians?)

The love him.

They, really, really love him.

Details here:
http://tinyurl.com/abqmg

The thing is mabellbc is that harper et al. policies regarding taxes, accountability, etc., have dire social consequences. For example, their tax policies are regressive - but the conservative have never campaigned on that fact which is why most are wary of their "hidden agenda". Also, campaigned for more military is a huge social issue. Harper would have had us following the U.S. in Iraq. Is that not a social issue? Perhaps not to conservative because the reprecussions are not directly felt by us here in Canada, but what about the innocent civilians who are murdered every day by "coalition forces"? What about the social effects of their pro-business stance?

In North America, up until recently, the Religious Right was not a huge problem until they took up politics and invaded the mass media. Religious Right leaders such as Pat Robertson ran for President and Religious Right candidates took over school boards. Evangelistic preachers developed their own radio and television networks and broadcasted their message to millions of viewers and listeners. Recently, they have also bought full-page ads in newspapers and magazines to further their agenda. Religious Right infected schoolboards have censored books and rewritten the curriculum to include "creationism" and remove ""evolution". For some bizarre reason they do not believe in overpopulation, pollution, environmentalism, the Holocaust, extinction of species or global warming, but support a strong military and even assasination of foreign leaders. Some believe in perpetual motion (lately called cold fusion) or that opera opposes religion. Some of the more conservative Religious Right have it in for Roman Catholics, Jews, and the Talmud, Freemasons, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. They have gone so far as to attempt to pass legislation requring the American people to "humble themselves before God". Many also believe that the Rapture (end of the world, Armageddon) is near and want to prepare the way. Many are terrified of the concept of "One/New World Order". When questioned about their own sins, they claim "the Devil made me do it".

Canada is a social progressive country, I am allot of right wing fanatics aka Reform , Alliance party supporters look south and pray we get a little more fundamentalist like the US. Oh why oh why can't we be a little more American, If Stevie gets in we will be taking a hard right turn, massive privatization of health care, education and gutting of social programs etc, we all Know the Gordo and Mike Harrisite rhetoric, tough choices , cleaning up the mess bla bla bla.
What that really means is a shittier health care system, education and unregulated companies doing whatever they like while rich white conservatives enjoy their tax cuts. We save a penny on GST yippeee, put it in your pocket folks your going to need it.

If Gay marriage had been an issue, it would not have passed. Most urban educated voters accept equal rights and not some mystic morality. Hence the Liberal and NDP support in Major centers, allot of churches are even evolving to equal rights issues, its just the right wing evangelical kooks that light their hair on fire over these issues, you know
the ones, they get upset over gays and women's rights, abortions etc but don't mind injustice or killing lying etc.

What was that commandment, Man Shall not kill any white Christians unless its government sponsored. Kind of like a pervert morality. The Pat Robertson crowd, advocating the killing of world leaders. We need to challenge our churches over this kind of pervert morality.

Here is the problem in Canada, a winner take all mentality.

To many, the right wing are Nazi's and for other's the left wing are Stallinists. And for this reason and no other, people park their vote with the Liberals.

Harper will not be as dreadful as many portray him. I can't understand it, people would rather have a corrupt Liberal party in power, rather than a new government that can, afraid to say, 'clean up the mess'.

The real problem is the the average voter is so far removed from the process. The average voter can not relate to any party and votes more in myth than reality. WE need true democracy, with the populace actually involved on a daily basis, not every election!

ubiquitous:

That's about all I need to know. No vote for Harper from me!

Meh, Friday had the libs up in the polls by almost 10 per cent. So if Harper wants to Harp on the same friggin issue that no one cares about instead of the obvious election winner (Gomery) than it's just better for those of us who can't stand him.

"Harper will not be as dreadful as many portray him. I can't understand it, people would rather have a corrupt Liberal party in power, rather than a new government that can, afraid to say, 'clean up the mess'."

This guy would have taken us to Iraq! The liberals have done an okay job minus the sponsorship scandal, which really amounts to chump change. So, for that, we're gonna elect a bunch of US toadies who's leader can't even say straight out, "I love Canada."
Face it, all this mess is nothing more than the cons thinking they can win an election and finally be in power. ANd the cost of their election is more than the sponsorship scandal. It's a joke.

What pisses me off is the fact we are having an election at all, it really is an insult to the people. I hate politicians telling me what the will of Canadians is, the will of Canadians was tested 18 months ago and we voted for a minority Liberal government , we knew their was corruption but we still wanted
a minority liberal more than a social conservative. The Canadian public is not buying the bag of goods Harper is selling, yes the clean ethical conservatives, give me a break we all remember Brian Mulroney
and what they did, the conservatives rants are like the pot calling the kettle black.

This election is about power, its about party insiders reading the polls and gambling with the electorate. Regardless of the pundits I find the minority government to be more effective than a dictatorship. Martin and Layton misplayed their cards, Layton should have backed of a little on the demands and kept the house alive making the conservatives a lame duck, if the Liberals win I hope we have the same minority and the lame duck conservatives and if the Conservatives win a minority the other parties can still make them a lame duck. Whatever you do vote NDP in BC , theirs going to be allot of close 3 way races and we need the NDP to carry the balance of power. If you want Canadian soldiers in body bags vote for Stevie, if you want kooks like Stockwell and Randy white in power vote conservative.

1. reduce GST to 5%
2. minimum sentences for drug crimes
3. $1,200.00 per year per child under 6 to use with no strings attached for daycare. A taxable benefit that can be claimed by the partner with the lowset income.
My daughter has 4 kids under six. That's $4,400.00 per year. She has no income, so she will keep it all and decide how to spend it. She currently is daycare.
Plus aprrox. $400.00 per year from GST relief, that's $5,200.00 per year.
Great resons for my daughter and other Canadians to get excited about a change in govt.
The NDP can't get in, the Liberals are taxing us to death and are corrupt.
We report, you decide.

This whole election is a simple power grab at any cost. Some Liberal party insiders were corrupted, big friggin deal, does anyone remember Airbus. The country is doing very well by any measures , can anyone tell where
we are doing poorly compared to the other G8 countries. Can anyone quote a stat or any research showing us as uncompetitive etc. Saying we are going to clean up the mess is not a platform, the translation is we are going to do whatever we want in the name of cleaning up the so called imaginary mess. I like minority situations where
parties have to work together, I don't like hollow rhetoric and power hungry politicians.

Keep human rights issues , women's , gays, natives etc front and center and watch the conservative kooks come out,

Keep the military issue front and center and keep asking your MLA's if they support what's happening in Iraq and what they think Canada's role should be.
The best way to defeat a conservative is to hold a mirror up to them.

LOL, every time a conservative talks of tax cuts it ends up costing me big bucks,

Keep your 2-3 cents on the GST your going to need it.

I hate playing shell games with conservatives,
In Ont and BC I will give some examples of tax cuts.

1) The middle and lower income brackets usually get lower cuts and the top 10% get the majority of the cut. Like what happened in BC> What we get for the tiny cut is
2) Gutted social programs and user fees galore,
3) Reduced services and more drugs and procedures de certified.
4) Tuition increases of 40 - 200 %,
5) Cut back to many ministries resulting in death and negligence on many levels like we have seen in Children and families and the environment becoming a toilet.
6) Violations of human rights and lowered protections for workers etc.
7) Less protections for immigrants etc,
as we have been with the mess Mike Harrisite left behind and what BUSH is doing in the
US we know that the drive to the bottom does not work or is not good economics.

Four children and no income? She must sell drugs or perhaps she's a hooker? Hey Ronnie, I thought you rightshitters hated socialism. I guess you can be bought off like the rest of us.

The best outcome we can hope for in this election is to increase the number of NDP seats in parliment. With a strong NDP showing we can continue to slow down the privitization of health care and perhaps even stop the trend. It isn't too late to fix medicare, but clinics like the Copeland clinic have to be shutdown, they are clearly a violation of the health act. With more NDP seats perhaps we can get Dosang to do his job. In the Kootenays we have an excellent chance of replacing our Conservative MP with a good old NDP'er.

It doesn't get any simpler than that!

Eddy, her husband has an income. She is a stay at home mom, so she will get to keep the entire $4,800.00.
The Liberal daycare plan is a s ocialist statist plan, where you have no choice but to use the money on a govt. daycare centre staffed by C.U.P.E. members.
We report, you decide.

There seems to be an ongoing confusion over what the positions of the Federal and Provincial Governments are supposed to serve in the 'Confederation' of Canada.

MLA's are Provincial electors, while I would like very much for BC to reject the Federal system and take on the full national roles (as Quebec has been doing for more than two decades more and more), today it is the Federal Government we ask to provide the 'National Defence'

More discussion has been centered around the Conservative Party saying we must assist our greatest Defence ally when they have asked for the assistance. This was not 'send the boys to Iraq' as many have been shouting over and over, it was the loyal opposition, OPPOSING the Cretien-led government decision of not only refusing military aid (not that the US wanted that at all) but rather also (LITERALLY) thuming his nose at the US and not presenting any moral support for their decision. Had it been a Conservative government in power they also would have no men to send to Iraq! We were (and still are) overstretch in Afghanistan, and the other postings all over the world that the military is asked to do. Not to mention the many cuts that Cretien and Martin have done to the Military for the past 12 years. Then what the Liberal party under Trudeau did for twenty years before that; there is no military left to send anywhere, let alone provide for any measure of national defence.
No white paper for 15 years (last one was 1991), the Liberals are 'making it up as they go' with the military, there is going to be a major disaster and Canada will look worse than the US in the wake of Katrina. Not only will no help come from any sort of Government sponsored military, there will be none to be had because it (the military) is gone.

The graft of the Liberals is sickening, to Quebec, to many from the western provinces (indeed if the Liberals even try to put through some sort of NEP clone Alberta will beat Quebec to sovrenity), and it is starting to stink in the Maritimes. Should Ontario voters be responsible for putting the gang of thieves known as the Liberal Party of Canada back in charge of the Federal piggy bank, I suspect that many more voices will come from the left coast, prairies, french, and hopeful atlantic canadians to set ottawa free and abandon the strange experiment known as 'CANADA'.

I consider this election a referendum on the issue and I consider it the only one of value, nothing to do with Quebec separation, but only of whose values will be supported by the majority? Honesty, good business and opportunity for all - or graft and back room deals for friends and supporters?

Afghanistan is UN sanctioned, I don't think we should be US lap dogs supporting illegal wars
anywhere anytime the US feels like it. We are a sovereign nation able to make up our own
minds and not an extension of US policy. 82% when polled did not support the US invasion and
occupation of Iraq, this conservative thinking is quite scary, who cares what the majority want we need to be better allies. Just like I said, just start scratching and see who shows up to wreak the day for Harper, we will see many attacks on Alberta this election also. If theirs one thing Canadians like more than hating the US is hating the pompous Alberta red necks. Maybe just start running ads
with profiles of Harper, BUSH and Ralf , thats all you need to do.

I get a kick out of the idea of a candidate arriving at my door so that I could actually ask them a question. It is about as likely to happen as Harper and Martin getting married.

Those who support Tweedle-Dee (Harper) seem to conveniently forget that the current neo-con party was founded in corruption. Ask David Orchard. Harper is no Diefenbaker or Clark.

The choice between Dum and Dee, is the choice between corrupt corporate capitalist with a flair for globalization or corrupt corporate capitalist with a neo-con flair. Like Republican and Democrat, or Pepsi and Coke, it is not a choice. It is sad intelligent people put so much effort into deciding whether they'll go for Coke or Pepsi. It is even sadder that Canadians pay the bill for this pointless exercise.

I have not decided if my vote will go Green or NDP. Unfortunately it won't matter anyways as I live in an evangelical neo-con riding. I also suspect that whether Dum or Dee lead the next minority government, it won't make much difference in terms of the issues that matter to me -- medicare, national sovereignty, human rights and the environment. True Harper is more likely to send troops to support the latest US atrocity, but Martin already quietly supprted a coup against a democratically elected leader in Haiti.

It is an insult that we are supposed to take seriously this choice between Coke or Pepsi.

Ronnie...If she is a stay at home mom, why does she need the assistance of free money from the tax paying citizens like myself? I thought that's the type of crap you rally so hard against every day on every forumn.

Dare we throw it back in your face ronnie and say:

Your daughter CHOOSE to stay at home, why should I pay for it? Why can't your daughter and her husband take more responsibility for the choices that they made?

mabellbc, the only way you or anyone else can paint Stephen Harper as a moderate on social issues is if you put him beside all the bigots he has surrounding him and then tape his mouth shut, while the others tell us what they want to do.

murdock insists:

Well good for Chretien. Are you suggesting that Canada ought to have provided moral support the the misadventure that is Iraq? Why?

Have we not seen enough evidence regarding Iraq to be thankful for Chretien's (that weasel) nose-thumbing?!

If you really want change in Canada, vote Green. If you want the status quo, a corrupt Liberal government, well that's easy, vote for the status quo.

This vicious anti-Harper dialogue, is mainly by people who are using half truths and myth to justify their way of thinking.

The Liberals national daycare is nothing more than a scam. What it really menas is that our tax regime is so high, both parents must work to raise a familly. Why not cut taxes for famillies and forgo the daycare? Too simple for our wild tax and spend Liberals? The huge surplusses we have in this country, just shows the average Canadian is taxed way to much!

The healthcare debate is a joke, as the Liberals, abetted by the NDP, are leading us to a US style medical system, with no public debate.

And so on!

All this ellection is about is voting for tweedel dee, tweddle dum, and tweedle wannabe. For me I'll vote GReen!

Eddy Haskel finds Ronnie a tad confused:

Perhaps Ronnie is making this up as he goes along; perhaps there is no daughter. If there is, as Ron describes, then, as a stay-at-home, she'll get none of that money.

At least I hope not, as it was intended, I would have thought, for people in need of daycare. Stay-at-home's, the last I looked, have no daycare expenses.

Vote Green!!!!!!

Grumpy argues:

Well, there is another option for our surplus that does not involve wild and woolly spending; how about applying it to the national debt? Paying down the debt would do wonders for our nation in the future when, perhaps, times are not so good, and interest rates not so low.

Paying off debt is rarely a bad strategy.

'Harper is a fanatical maniac, without any conscience, as long as he can fulfill his ideological madness. Yes, he's an economist allright, but a neoclassical one, which makes him the ultimate worst kind, on level with the madness of Stalin's economists, killing millions around the globe.' you're a moron fiat lux. get a life.

Elliot appears annoyed:

Surely you don't deny that Harper sounds very much like a neoclassical economist, do you?

Thus, Elliot, I'm surprised by your "Vote Green" comment above, unless it was pure sarcasm. The neoclassical economists would have nothing to do with the sorts of externalities that the Green party is concerned about.

If the Liberal Govt. gets elected, they have promised a National Daycare Program. A program payed for by each and every taxpayer. Truly a statist, socialist idea.
The money only goes to publicly run facilities that will be run by C.U.P.E. workers.
I prefer that the family has a choice. If the mother wants to stay at home and raise her children under the Liberal plan, her husband will be forced to supply his tax dollars to pay for it, but she will not be entitled to any benefit ( money )
I am soory, but I can't be any clearer than this.
The Conservative plan encourages families, and it empowers families to have a choice.
I can't see any problem with this idea as a counter to the Liberal plan.
I don't expect any of my detractors to give this idea any credit because Jack Layton didn't think of it.
What would the Toronto NDP do ?

Ron clarifies ??

Families requiring daycare will have a choice as to which daycare they wish to use. Families with stay-at-home parents will get no benefit whatever (at least I hope not!). Why would they get a benefit, Ron, as they're not using a daycare facility.

Is there something I'm missing in your analysis?

I am tired of closet socialist like Ron , imagine him wanting me to support his lazy sister and her 4 kids. Makes me sick, why can't she get a job like the rest of us. She choose to be a breeder, she has to live with that.

"mabellbc, the only way you or anyone else can paint Stephen Harper as a moderate on social issues is if you put him beside all the bigots he has surrounding him and then tape his mouth shut, while the others tell us what they want to do."
My sides still hurt from the laughing,

if your a liberal organizer you just need to show up at a all candidates meeting with Stockwell day, ask him about abortion etc and then report his answer nation wide. Sorry , I'm having to much fun.

Whats works in rural BC and Alberta maynot work in Toronto and Montreal.

Because she isn't using a daycare facility she still is participating in daycare. She is incurring all the associated expenses.
Remember Family Allowance. A benefit was payed to all families regardless of income.
This was done to encourage families to have children
Having children is a good thing for the country.
I know this is a strange idea for those that encourage abortion and same sex marriage.
But not all Canadians are like those that visit this site.
They are very different.
Let's not get hung up on stupid.
There is going to be a National Daycare if the Liberals get elected. This is just a counter idea to give people a choice of staying home and raising ones children or sending them to a State operated facility.
It's a no brainer for MOST people.

It's actually quite simple grub. Ron supports policies and programs that are economically regressive. That is, anything that benefits higher income earners is policy bandwagon that Ron quickly jumps on to. If his daughter is a stay at home parent raising 4 kids (it was 4 no?) then I can only assume that her husband makes a decent living. Good for them I say. Most families are not in such a fortunate position; a 1200 dollar allowance, while it helps, still does not cover expenses. Therefore, the parents still have to work. 5% gst you say. Whoopdidoo! Guess who that benefits? That's right, the high income earner, because (and I'm addressing Ron here) if you do not have a lot of money to spend in the first place, a 2% reduction in sale tax is not going to cut it. But if you're buying $40000 SUVs, that 2% becomes a little more significant.

On the flip side, a national day care strategy just doesn't fit in with his love of the regressive tax. If it doesn't benefit his perceived middle class life, then it's automatically labelled statist. Continuing the logic then, if something is statist, then it must be controlled by CUPE.

All in all grub. Ron is greedy. We've known that for quite sometime now. He still doesn't realize that the more regressive an economic system we keep building, the more and more people will financially struggle - which in itself sets of a chain reaction of other social ills. But Ron doesn't (read: refuses) to see this; to him, it's all about choice. But even it someone doesn't have the same choices that he (or his daughter) have, he can still find blame in something other than the policies that he so strongly supports.

And elliot...nah, it's too easy to pick on simpletons, so I'll just leave him to wallow in own drool.

Hey Ron, don't worry about Day care, your grand kids should get used to the tough life, cause if your man gets in they'll be sent off to Iraq.

We lie, you decide

Question:

What are we supposed to do about Iraq and the middle east? Saddam has confessed to executing thousands of citizens for political purposes. He helped create a society of no freedom and oppression - let alone how they treat their women. Let's not forget that he tried to take over Kuwait!!

I am not claiming to know the answers, but I do not take our liberties and freedom for granted. Beyond our borders, there is a world full of hate and violence and quite frankly, I have to believe that the world will be a better place without Saddam.

The Iraqi's by and large have supported this war, and I believe they deserve a shot at democracy. They had an 80%+ voter turnout for this referendum most in support of adopting the new constitution.

We also need to resume our role as peace-keepers. We have fallen to the back of the pack. There are massive problems in Africa (Darfur), the Middle East and parts of Asia.

These people can't protect themselves, and I support military expansion so that we can help.

ubiquitous, you are assuming my daughter and her husband are rich. How can you assume this ? It isn't true. It's a sinlge income family, they are far from rich.
Jamez, hopefully they will have the opportunity to live in Iraq in a free and democratic country.
You do lie, I will decide.

Invading and "nation building" isn't the answer. What should have been done is supporting rebel momvements already there. Also this con argument about how Saddam was such a bastard is nothing more than an attempt to deflect attention from the fact the US went there to find WMD, they never found. The whole thing was a lie, and thousands are now dead. So don't give me the "Saddam is a monster who had to be removed" crap. There's a truckload of guys worse than him, are we to go after them too?

"Jamez, hopefully they will have the opportunity to live in Iraq in a free and democratic country.
You do lie, I will decide."

No Ron, they won't see, because Cons like you didn't do your homework and now want to bug out of iraq, leaving it in shambles. Not to mention the civil war that is sure to break out. Chances are, buy the time your grandkids are old enough to go there, it will be the new balkans.

Ron, I actally try not to make baseless assumptions about people - for that I apologize. That said, I would not think that just because a family has a stay at home parent precludes that they are rich - that wasn't even my point. I was trying to point out the type of policies that you are supportive of - ones that are regressive and do not benefit those 'at the bottom' (sorry, lack of a better phrase) - a group that grows daily as more and more regressive economic policies are implimented.

Mabellbc - i don't think that anyone here would ever argue that the world is not a better place without the saddam husseins of the world. What I find funny is some of your decriptions regarding Saddam are applicable to GW Bush. "He helped create a society of no freedom and oppression"; parallel: the Patriot Act. "Let's not forget that he tried to take over Kuwait"; parallel: let's not forget that he (GW Bush) tried (and achieved) in invaded Iraq. I sorry mabellbc, but when people speak in abstractions: "I do not take our liberties and freedom for granted", I speaks volumes about their lack of understanding.

mabellbc

To answer your question , I first suggest that the US stops supporting dictators and stops overthrowing democratic governments and undermining democracy for their own vested interest. I suggest the US obey and abide by UN law and also try supporting democratic movements in repressive countries and not the dictators that run those countries. Let us not forget the US loved Saddam, he could do no wrong even when he was at his best and most wicked. If you follow history you would know that the US is responsible for overthrowing many democratic and reformist governments around the world over the last 3 decades.

It was Ronald Reagan that said , I am a contra and that he compared the Taliban to the founding fathers of the US, yep, no one likes Saddam but killing over 100,000 innocents and 2000 US troops in not a good solution, in fact the sanctions made the population more dependant on Saddam, their were many solutions that did not
involve turning Iraq into a giant graveyard. But some pics for good neo con memories of the old days. Your can even catch the moments live via media player.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82

jamez, you are getting me mixed up with the Dem's in the states. I don't support cut and run. I am awaiting the free elections and new constitution.
Once the Iraq people get this done, they will then be able to get their shares in the Iraq oil. About $8,000.00 for every man , woaman and child.Once they are all shareholders, they will live happily ever after.

They don't have a cuture that revolves around money though Ron, civil war is an impending threat.

"NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - The first contracts for rebuilding post-war Iraq have been awarded, and Vice President Dick Cheney's old employer, Halliburton Co., is one of the early winners.

The Kellogg Brown & Root (KBR) unit of Halliburton (HAL: up $0.54 to $20.66, Research, Estimates), of which Cheney was CEO from 1995 to 2000, said late Monday that it was awarded a contract by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers to make emergency repairs to Iraq's oil infrastructure.

President Bush Tuesday asked Congress for $489.3 million to cover the cost of repairing damage to Iraq's oil facilities, much or all of which could go to Halliburton or its subcontractors under the terms of its contract with the Army. "

wow unbidden contracts awarded for Halliburton, your story Ron should have started with Once upon a Time if you
think Halliburton is going to share the revenues with Iraqi's , I don't think Halliburton is going to be become a local co op.

It's much easier to be an arm chair quarter back then to go and fight , how many more body bags have to come back before the so called constitution is written.

Not to mention, it's not just Dems wanting to leave Iraq. Look at Walter Jones of North Carolina. Yeah, the "Freedom fries" jerk. Now he's saying they should leave.
Face it, it was a bad idea.

BUt seriously "Cut and run" do you try to use all the latest Repub catch phrases? It kinda eludes to you not having the ability to make up your own mind.

Ron Erwin: "Once the Iraq people get this done, they will then be able to get their shares in the Iraq oil. About $8,000.00 for every man , woaman and child.Once they are all shareholders, they will live happily ever after."

OMG!!! Ron's a communist! ROFLMAO!!!

"OMG!!! Ron's a communist! ROFLMAO!!!"

For comrade Erwin;

Soy'ooz neroosh'imi resp'ooblik svob'odnikh
Splot'ila nav'eki vel'ikaia Rus
Da zdr'avstvooyet sozdanni voley nar'odov
Yed'ini mog'oochi Sov'etski Soy'ooz

Sl'avsa ot'echestvo n'ashe svob'odnoye
Dr'oojbi nar'odov nady'ojni opl'ot
P'artia L'enina, - s'ila narodnaya
Nas k torjestv'oo kommun'izma vedy'ot

Skvoz g'odi siy'alo nam s'ontse svob'oodi
I L'enin vel'iki nam put ozar'il
Na pr'avoye d'elo on p'odnal nar'odi
na tr'ood i na p'odvigi nas vdokhnov'il

Sl'avsa ot'echestvo n'ashe svob'odnoye
Dr'oojbi nar'odov nady'ojni opl'ot
P'artia L'enina, - s'ila narodnaya
Nas k torjestv'oo kommun'izma vedy'ot

V pob'ede bessm'ertnih idey kommoon'izma
Mi v'idim grad'oosheye n'ashey strani
I kr'asnomoo zn'ameni sl'avnoj otch'izni
Mi b'oodem vsegd'a bezav'etno verni

Sl'avsa ot'echestvo n'ashe svob'odnoye
Dr'oojbi nar'odov nady'ojni opl'ot
P'artia L'enina, - s'ila narodnaya
Nas k torjestv'oo kommun'izma vedy'ot

From Grub

I was not saying that Canada should have done either sending of troops (which we do not have), nor of supporting in any moral way the US decision. The point I was making is two-fold:

1) that the JOB of the opposition is to OPPOSE the government and do so in a way that respects the electorate that the opposition is trying to convince that they are the 'government in waiting'; condemnations of their choice of method of opposition is fine, but not of opposing, such a condemnation is a clear misunderstanding of the parliamentary process (not that many in either party get that process any more as the PMO is the defacto 'star chamber of canada').
2) that the canadian governments' response to the US led proposals were vulgar, condecending and nasty. All the WRONG things to say to a once trusting and potentially valuable ally.

Canadian & US relations have been going downhill since Bush jr. came into office, why? Are the US citizenry really all that different than they were in 1999?
Are Canadian citizens really all that different than they were in 1999?
The answer to both is NO.
The difference has been the 'so-called' leadership, which will not last more than another few years...so why take the nasty vitriolic approach to the issues? That answer lies somewhere in the PMO 'star-chamber' led by the Cretienites.

The opposition to the canadian position as stated by the then Reform-Alliance was actually very clear, no canadian military service personell were to be sent, Canada was not going to make any declarations (for or against) until the UN had finished thier deliberations on the matter (which the French and Russians ended with a recommendation against military action).

We, Canada, would have had the same result on the ground - no troops; but this way we would also NOT HAVE INSULTED the entire US administration and their supporting populace.

Thumbing our noses at them (LITERALLY as Cretien did in the House of Commons) was patently the WRONG thing to do; as a nation we will be paying for those actions for years to come.

murdock' you make too much sense, what are you doing here ?

"We, Canada, would have had the same result on the ground - no troops; but this way we would also NOT HAVE INSULTED the entire US administration and their supporting populace."

A principle is a principle. I'm glad we didn't so much as give them a blessing.

"as a nation we will be paying for those actions for years to come."

The US has thumbed its nose at Canada on a myriad of issues going back to the Fenians and the War of 1812 right up to softwood lumber, BSE, drilling in northern alaska and refusal to recognize Canadian sovereignity over the arctic.

But there's always people in every country that want to hate their own and pander to a foreign power. Canada just has more than its share.

jamez, the only principal here is Cretien trying to suck up to Quebec. When making decisions in Canada we must ignore the feelings of these left wing socialist Quebecers.
It cloulds the real feelings of the rest of the country. I am sick of sucking up to them. Cut them loose and let them have only the Anericans to deal with and see how happy they are. There are not likely to be many french services they can get from anywhere else.
I don't really know what any of this has to do with Steven Harper anyway. I know that there is an effort to smear him at every chance, but the Iraq issue was a screw up by the Liberals.
And if you don't think Canada had any involvement, you are very naive.

Boy you got that right Frank, and it makes me bloody sick.

Yes, we must ignore a huge chunk of our country, but we must suck up to foreign nations like the US. That makes no sense Ron.

probably weren't but neither was anyone else

True, Rafe. In a way I would like to see Harper form a minority government so we can see what a bunch of loonie whack-jobs they in fact are. I actually support a little of their platform, by the way. Giving families real choice regarding daycare seem reasonable to me. I have little doubt that having a parent at home with children is very beneficial.

Fiat, I would hardly got that far. I do think that Harper's polcies would lead to huge defecits and that does not help anyone.

Ontario will decide this election. It will almost definately be a Liberal minority government at which point the loonie fringe of the Reform-conservatives will have their knives out.

And you will see a lynching of Harper and more pouting from the cons. If the cons were smart they'd try running James Moore as the leader, he's not dynamic, but he's likeable.

Attach any label you want but voters in Canada tend to gravitate to centrist parties that spend a lot of money. You do not win elections by espousing any radical policies, be they left or right. Same goes for the NDP; they can promise anything to anybody because they do not have a hope of ever forming a government in Canada.

The only thing that will delight me with this election, is the thought of our current crop of lazy and inept politicians, followed by our lazy and inept media, trudging through snow and ice, knocking on doors and speaking at poorly attended mettings! It's about time they earn their money!

The contempt for the conservatives is so strong here, one wonders how any of them got ellected. Harper probably is not half as bad as he is portrayed and I would suspect the Liberal and NDP party faithfuls are driving this anti Harper blog to the extreme with invented stories and myth.

I would really wish they would take the time to question their own party's political promices and actions.

Here is the problem, if we get too involved with libelous and slanderous accusations, nothing will be accomplished. It's time for honest debate and way too many people here are avoiding this, instead taking cheap shots.

As I stated before, not one of the major federal political parties gives me any confidence at all and I will park my vote with the Greens!

Anyone who thinks that Canada stayed out of Iraq is naive. The truth is that there were Canadians in Iraq right from the first days of the invasion in 2003. My brother happened to be deployed there in April 2003 for a year. He and other Canadians saw their share of combat and were not relegated to "non-combat" functions.

Chretien and the Liberals want you to think that there were no Canadians fighting in Iraq but that simply is false.

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/03/27/cdnsoldiers030327

The fact is that several Canadains fought in Iraq but instead of being sent as Canadians they had to fight under the US flag. This put them in even greater harm as they, under the Geneva Convention, would be considered mercenaries and therefore would not be protected by the convention. This is a classic case of the Liberals wanting there cake and eating it to. All the while not being honest with Canadian voters.

There were Canadians in Iraq, there are Canadians in Iraq, and there will be Canadians going back, as is the case with my brother this January.

Ron still not clarifying for me:

Ron, take a look at your tax forms. It asks if you're paying for daycare (that is, a babysitter or some formal facility), NOT if you're incurring normal expenses involved with raising a family as a stay-at-home parent.

I think your sister/daughter ought not to spend that money before she gets it, because I can't think of ANY government --least of all a conservative one -- that's going to GIVE people buckets of money simply because they have kids (OK. OK. Socialist governments in Europe have been known to do that when the birthrate was near zero).

I'm sure Harper's not such a dummy that he's about to campaign on providing money for daycare when he really means money for anyone with kids.

However, I could be wrong; I never could quite figure out how neo-cons think.

Ron Erwin says:

ROTFL!!!!! ROTFL!!!!

OHmigawd!!! Do you recall the hype around BCRIC shares?! Sounded much like "Once they are all shareholders, they will live happily ever after."... a several thousand of my dollars went down the drain on that one ;-(

When did this reaction happen last time in BC. Ah, yes, the fast cat fiasco. And the electorate stampeded to vote in (what had been an ineffective opposition party) the Campbell Liberals.

If memory serves me right they also presented themselves as barely right of center - SURPRISE - they were right wing conservatives.

How does that other saying go - Lest We Forget.

JCC, can you try posting that CBC link again. It didn't work for me.

I've also mentioned in other threads that of course we were in Iraq, unless out naval vessels are no longer part of the armed forces.

Giving the Liberals a free pass on Iraq is just plain naive.

jcc, there is a world of difference between a handful of Cdn troops attached to US forces and an actual Cdn contingent. Dwell on that before calling everyone else naive. We didn't go and the public didn't want to go. Move on.

jamez, there's always been a bunch of wanky Canadians who look up to the US in everything and can't stand Canada ever making a decision in its own interest. If the US decided to build lots of icebreakers and take over the arctic there'd be Canadians cheering them on.

Grumpy, you get lots of anti-Harper comments because we all remember Mulroney' scandals and how he was against free trade before the 1984 election. Even if Harper was no worse than Lyin Bryan we'd be in trouble. And considering his anti-Canada comments of the past like building a firewall around Alberta I'd say the guy deserves all the criticism he gets.

I have just a couple of points to make on the wisest use of our tax dollars. Should we pay down the debt? or should we pay money towards our youngest citizens?
On the Liberals' contribution to provinces for regulated Day Care versus the Conservatives' proposed blanket payment of $1,200 per yr per child - I used to agree with the Conservatives' position until I became aware of the research on children ages 0 to 5 years old. Many children in Canada do not have the luxury of safe parents and safe neighbourhoods. Which means that paying money directly to parents may not help the child at all. When very young children live in unsafe environments - and their parent(s) need not be poor just violent or verbally frightening perhaps because the parents also had violent or verbally frightening parents (when you are under age 5 you absorb everything around you like a sponge and when you are an adult you find yourself automatically acting in similar situations just like your parents did) - research has shown that a few hours of regular day care a week gives these unsafe children a feeling of safety and helps them to learn when they go to school. Otherwise these young children are too busy spending most of their time looking over their shoulders to do anything other than panic when they start school; then they have a hard time learning, and they get sick a lot. And there are a lot of scared children out there. So, I'd rather spend relatively fewer tax dollars to strengthen our future tax payers instead of later on having to spend a vastly larger amount of tax dollars for more police, more doctors, more prescription drugs, more judges, more jails, more psychologists - all "fix the problem ho-ho" dollars! Logically, if we accept we do have some responsibility to raise responsible adults to look after us in our old age, then putting our tax dollars into helping very young children feel safe even though they continue to live in frightening environments, is the wisest tax payment we can make as a society.

I need more info on those 31 troops on exchange before I will say Canada is in Iraq. Were they volunteers? ARe they taking orders from the US?

I have a few comments on the economics of the daycare issue as well.

There are a number of serious problems with the Conservatives plan. First, accross-the-board payments benefit two groups of people: those who need it and those who don't. The result is a significant amount of the money will not serve the purpose of any child-care program, it's a giveaway. Not efficient public spending.

This is better than the Conservatives' previous plan, a tax cut. That gives a break to many who do not need it, and does absolutely nothing for those that do. Shame.

Clearly the most efficient option is a publically regulated and financed day care system. This benefits the kids who need it. Yes, some elitist wankers will whine about having to pay taxes on top of their private daycare. But then again, we've been subsidizing their valium for years.

One thing we have to keep in mind while debating child care or tax cuts... These are only campaign promises. They mean as much as any other campaign promise, bugger all. The political parties should be judged by their past performance and they values they stand for.

The Liberals are in favour of watching our public health care system slowly errode away all the while pretending they are doing something about it. The Conservatives will privatize health care as quick as they can. The NDP stands for rebuilding our health care system.

This is our chance to strengthen our traditional Canadian values or flush them down the toilet. Don't get side tracked by meaningless promises.

Wow! Being called a moron by a neocon is great honour ! It means he considers me his mental equal !

Cheers, Ed Deak.

Grumpy is going to vote Grreen and will probably become Grumpier when he finds out what they stand for.

Looks as if Little Ronnie has taken control of this thread, too. Sad.

You're right kootenay. And the Conservatives' thousand bucks is absolultely meaningless anyway. It has little to do with child care. It's effectively an increase to the child tax benefit. Watch for them to cut that next if they get in.

The opposition parties were in great position to put forward any bills on ethics, child care, the GST, etc. during the minority government and chose not to do so. If they would not touch those subjects when they had the liberals on the ropes ( a great opportunity to show what the opposition would do in power) why should we believe they will be any different when in power (position of entitlement).

Dead cert, Eddy Haskel and Ubiquitous. The real little ronnie erwin has once again exposed himself as a hypocrite.

The existence of useful social programs are not on little ronnie's agenda. His, and the neocon agenda, is how much for me? To hell with anyone that is not like me.

So, let me confess that we are also a one income family. Would we like the phantom tax break? Absolutely! Do we need the tax break? No. Do I really think that harper will institute anything like the promise? NO. If I did I would be as foolish as little ronnie. I also do not think that a liberal majority government will do anything to protect children.

There are single parents in my neighbourhood, and double income families struggling to make ends meet, that need such support first.

But, for neocons, single parents do not fit the correct definition of family. Damn women (the great majority of single parents) should not have driven their man away, or should find another male to "provide" for them. Low income double income families are the authors' of their own misfortune. They should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps. It is certainly not the role of the state to make sure that children are not left behind. And, if they are left behind, little ronnie will have a jail cell for them.

What a puke, little ronnie. That you have the effrontery to challenge anyone with the comment "Let's not get hung up on stupid", says volumes about your philosophy.

I do not want my country going to war with the bush neocon crazies. I do not want a walmart economy in this country, although I trust neither Libs nor PC's to keep that economic obscenity out. However, the cynic in me knows that the only way we can slow down the rape of Canada, is to return the Libs as they will maintain some distance from Washington, just to protect the Quebec nationalists.

AARRGGHHH. Why is the choice so disagreeable.

Wallace, the Lib's are only creating the illusion they are the slow track to selling out this country.

Everyday under the direction of Prime Minister Martin, the Deputy Prime Minister and hundreds of faceless Ottawa bureaucrarts are busily wedding Canada to the United States.

Stripping away all of the qualities that left our citizens and country the envy of the world.

Ask yourself why you never see the PM out in front of the debate on national security, smart borders, privacy rights, the right to trial or charge, internet and phone snooping, background and security checks? All of these social norms and expectations of Canadians have been or are being eroded.

The answer is if the PM was doing the heavy lifting these would be issues. These issues would be debated in the press and by the parties.

Canada is sliding down the slippery slope of citizen control by stealth. These are the hall marks of such policies as those invoked by Stalin or Mao during the cultural revolution.

Sorry to go off topic, suddenly realized this is a civic thread, however I felt the need to respond to this dangerous notion that the Libs are a preferable poison.

Yes, the Greens have been taken over by the libertarians. Freemarketers. Right wingers. Texas Tea drinkers.

As if Harper etal would keep even one election promise. lol

This is so true.

I'm voting for the NDP. And, here in BC they have a good chance. The more NDP mps sent to Ottawa the more difficult it is to ignore the issues that Canadians really care about. Social programs, the environment and peace.

Odd thing about this board. Everyone is so eager to call Gordon Campbell a criminal but I have not seen a peep about Svend. Why is that?

Well for one, Svend owned up to his transgression. Campbell had to be pulled over before he killed somebody.

Though it will be interesting to see how much play the pocketed piece will get in the mainstream media during the campaign. As I recall the slobbering drunk story was killed in two days by the cities media.

Whoops, sorry to mix my metaphors.

Frank, Jamez: Heather Mallick in the Globe & Mail had a good column on that in the October 1 edition entitled "I have to ask: Have we no pride?"

Medicare: It is beyond me why, when we are dealing with the lives of our friends and neighbours if not our own, why the right cannot deal with the issues and continue to seek refuge in their own political orthodoxy by mouthing the same tired slogans.

One of the factors which have impacted on Medicare is staffing, or rather lack of it. Blame the demographics of the Baby boom if you will, the fact remains that at present (and yes, the "Liberals" sat on that report as well until after the BC election) there are major shortfalls in nurses in B.C. which result in thousands of hours of down time in operating rooms. This shortfall exists all across Canada and the United States, to the extent that American hospitals are advertising for qualified Canadian nurses to fill their own shortage, and of course, Canada continues to plunder other nations in a similar fashion.

George Abbott can talk all he wants to, as can Harper, but allowing private health care under these circumstances is only going to mean private billing, and yes, I am sure that nurses might prefer to work days in a private clinic rather than split or night shift in a government hospital, and yes, there are doctors who would like to get rich. It will not add one nurse to the Canadian workforce, it will cost more, and will only ensure that those with money will jump to the head of the line. Of course, the individuals who decry government "intervention" in the marketplace are the same who run crying to government for handouts when their own chestnuts have to be pulled out of the fire, and are also the same who trumpet their own rights to abuse themselves (from a health viewpoint) as much as they please... while we pay.

Similarly, we now allow nurse practitioners such as midwives, but we don't (as far as I know) train them. We are faced with looming retirment of boomer Obstetricians, (and, having personal experience in this matter - my kids were born with attending midwives and a staff physician in case of an emergency, and it works much better than a family doctor doing one of a dozen births in a year - although I don't know if my wife would have preferred other arrangements or not; that was what there was), with no alternatives available.

In previous decades we closed a number of nursing schools for RNs at local hospitals (too many nurses?) so that only BNs are now being produced, and now we don't have enough.... and so it goes.

Unfortunately, with a continental problem, the whole continent is just going to have to buckle down and train more medical staff. Harper can promise whatever he likes, but we are going to pay for it, and it's going to cost a lot of money.

Smilarily, if you must have private healthcare, allow me to pass on the following (anecdotal) example of healthcare in the U.S.A.

My grandmother lived alone in CA, and at the age of 88 went into a coma. She had begged us several times not to let the doctors work her over if there was no hope, but as luck would have it, the ambulance brought her to a private hospital, just down the street, owned by a doctor, and staffed almost entirely by low cost Philipinno nurses on term contract (no benefits) with a couple of Americans as supervisors. Social security provided up to 80,000 dollars coverage, and for one month the hospital kept her heart beating, tubes in every orifice she possessed. When her jaws locked, they force fed her with a tube through her nostril, and when that became so bloody as to preclude further use, they used the other nostril (for some reason, they blamed her, in the coma, for 'refusing' to accept the feeding tube, and one said "we showed her...")

The itemized bill, as long as my arm, came to 82,500 (my father and uncle picked up the rest) and at 80,000, as they prepared to transfer her to a county hospital (no more government money available) "pouf", she expired, but, as they previously told us, to just turn off the machines was murder.

The doctor? Oh, he became a very wealthy man...

R. Smiley

From Ron Erwin

Testing my patience most of the time, but it is good to excercise the thinking process and to remind others of the way our system is 'supposed' to work; then pointedly display the way that it is working now.

Sadly the social liberals (small 'l') are dominant in this boar and fear any encroachment on their territory. The social conservatives (small 'c') have become dominant in the Conservative Party of Canada and thus are a threat to the voices here.

Before the attacks come, I am neither an NDP nor Conservative Party member, I liked what the Reform party was all about, when they were standing for something(s) like free speech, proper use of parliamentary rules of comittees and trying to reform the lame duck senate. All of that is gone now, so I like many of my fellow Canadians are left looking for somewhere to go, someone to lead.

In the end all of the party platforms (the ones I can find on line anyway) read the same; the nuances of difference are miniscule.

Given nowhere to go I am left with voting strategically or accepting the best of the worst, or as Rafe likes to say, the three among the two's...

And, wait til you are paying 20,000 a year with a deductable as some of my relatives in the US for MSP.

Oh, Working man, when Sven betrays his constituents and steals from them maybe he'll get called a criminal too.

Svend hurt the store keeper financially and himself. Campbell could have killed someone. His policies already have.

'Well for one, Svend owned up to his transgression.' svendo only owned up because over the long weekend the rcmp tipped him off. he knew he was caught and 'owning up' was the only thing he could do. do you think that people begin their shoplifting careers with a $50,000 item. svendo's a common criminal. what a choice if you live downtown. hedy the lazy idiot versus svend the common criminal.

People here are spouting that the conservatives are advocating choice. BS! If it were choice they were about, then the big tax cut wouldn't be a GST cut but a basic exemption increase. (Raise the basic exemption = people pay less taxes) Cutting the GST means that people need to spend $$$ to save $$$. That's no saving at all and it's most definitely not a choice!!!
The Conservatives aren't small c at all. Small c conservatives are those who seek environemntal protenction, reduce the size of governemnt in all reaches - including the nation's bedrooms, and let people do their thing. The closest federal party to this description is the Greens. Any true small c conservative oughta look very closely at what the greens are saying.

Well, seems the judge thought he was a criminal.

Svend has always been a grandstander. If there was a camera around Svend was never that far away. Probably his most distasteful stunt was going to the West Bank. It was so pathetic even the Palestinians ignored him. Make that the second most distasteful; going to Scotland after being convicted was the most distasteful. I really believe Svend thought he could get away with it he was (and continues to be) so impressed with his own importance.

Vancouver Centre actually happens to be my riding. Some choice I am left with. Hedy is about as wacky as one can imagine. Then again, along with real estate agent, politician is the only job you need absolutely no qualifications to do.

Liberals and Conservatives are the same since Michael Ignatieff abandoned Bush for Ontario. There is no better proof of the disaster of conservatism than the country south of our border.

Yeah, that was sad, I'm so sick of that firckin' guy. I feel sorry for you, that's a headache of a riding to be in.

Wasn't that a couple days AFTER?!

to ron erwin; you reported, and i have decided i don't wish to pay for your daughter's family. after all, she is not making any contribution to mine, nor anyone else's apparently.

why don't you give her the money, and vote for the good of the country, instead of being selfish.

harper's mentor is lyin' brian mulroney.

that should be enough to end his hopes of leading canada.

rafe, who picks the pic?

this one looks like harper just heard that gay marriage is legal.

like gordo, steve looks funny without a tie.

or with one.

If only the X factor could get Raif off The Tyee the same way it got him off the radio.

I've heard Harper is opposed to fish farms off BC's coast.

the man's a liar and a thief. period. the rcmp should not have tipped him off, then we would know the extent of his transgression.

Are you talking about Gordo, Elliot or Paul Martin, please clarify.

If it's Svend who cares, he is a hard working MLA and is willing to run on his record, let the voters decide. I don't think he's counting on your vote( a citizen as perfect as yourself) Put him up against Hedy Fry and
well I think his chances are pretty good, courage Elliot is a rare commodity. Hey we elected Gordo the only BC leader to spend time in a US Jail. We elected his even with his smirking photo opp.

what a crock of shite. "who cares?" you're whacked stuey-boy.

"Odd thing about this board. Everyone is so eager to call Gordon Campbell a criminal but I have not seen a peep about Svend. Why is that?"

Actually Svend should never have been allowed to run again for the NDP in my opinion.

However, I have yet to see you or Elliot or Ron E call Campbell a criminal, in fact Elliot defends his night in Hawaii, so somehow I fail to see why I should bother worrying about Svend, who is a grandstander and a criminal in my opinion.

If only more people on the right were as critical of Campbell as many of us pro-NDP'ers are of Svend.

get over it frank. it's an old story that you lefties continue to try to get mileage out of. most adults can relate to having a few too many and not calling a cab. comparing that to casing and stealing a $50k ring is apples and oranges and you should know it. well, maybe not you...or allan.

Kind of funny, Sven steals a $ 50,000 ring and ends up with no criminal record.
On one end he gets tipped off by the cops so he apparently comes clean and at the other end he gets his fingers slapped and no criminal record so he can get back into politics.
He should have got a criminal record like anone else would and if he wanted, he could have waited until he was eligible for a pardon and applied and then got back into politics upon receipt of that pardon if he so wished.
Hopefully he won't be rewarded with another term in Ottawa.

yes, he should have been given a criminal record, but the rule of law doesn't exist for the left in this country. witness the bctf's recent illegal actions.

Campbell did not have a "few too many", he had a lot too many and then chose to get in a car and drive. And being drunk behind the wheel can get people killed while theft is only a loss of property. Judges usually go harder on people who physically hurt someone.

Anyway, thanks for quickly proving my point about your politics and how it shapes your view of the world. A right wing guy drinks and drives and you have yet to say, after all these years, that it was a bad thing yet you call Svend a criminal over and over.

They're both criminals, they both should not be able to hold public office. Stop looking at the world through a Liberal filter.

" but the rule of law doesn't exist for the left in this country. witness the bctf's recent illegal actions."

That would of course be the law passed by a convicted criminal against his political enemies.

Elliott says

". most adults can relate to having a few too many and not calling a cab"

US stats, similar #'s in in proportion to our population.
"An estimated 310,000 persons were injured in crashes where police reported that alcohol was present — an average of one person injured approximately every 2 minutes. Approximately 43 of our fellow citizens are lost each day, 305 each week, and 1309 each month because of alcohol related accidents. That's one life lost every 33 minutes. "

Yep driving drunk is not a big issue, all macho guys do it right Elliott.

Svend is going to run and win if you like it or not, or is it your impression that anyone convicted of a crime has no more use in society. What about Gordo, oh sorry he only had a few drinks.

I wonder who could have been killed by stealing a ring.

Working Man, who is the Consevative candidate running in Vancouver Centre ?
If it's a choice between Sven and Heddy, isn't there a chance for the Consevatives ?

Ron E, considering the Conservatives have a history of winning in that riding (Pat Carney?) I can't see how Hedy and Svend could possibly win this time around.

So Svend says he stole the ring because he's bi-polar, eh. This doesn't ring true to me. Anyone who knows about bi-polar illness knows that a clinical symptom of the illness is a squandering of money and obsessive buying (not stealing) of things which are not needed. I think Svend should come clean on why he stole the ring instead of insulting people with mental illnesses to scapegoat his own weirdness. If he were in a contest against up and coming liberal fascist Michael Ignatieff, I'd hold my nose and vote for him but not otherwise.

Gee, we've got a lot of mileage out of this one! Just wondering...
A family gets $1200 per child to use as they see fit. Can they buy a HD television, better booze at Christmas or tickets to a Canucks game? Could they hire some immigrant under the table for $3.00 an hour?
As a taxpayer, no thanks. Parents get deductions come income tax time and I believe their is some other monthly allowance. Fair enough. More money for child care...okay. money doled out under the guise of "freedom to choose" would make the Gomery thing look like child's play.
Gov't sponsored child care, including decent wages gets my support.

Did anyone notice the National Post the last couple of days, Their working hard to improve Steven's image, him kissing babies 2 days in a row. His image consultants have given him a new haircut and he has ditched the suit and tie, good start in making him seem human or less scary, very sad election coverage so far.

I beg to differ on that.

And Ron, I dislike right wing fanatics as much as the ones from the left.

Good for the Ntl Post, if Harper is less scary it means the NDP bleeds less support to the Libs.

I don't know his background well, he's a 41 year old lawyer isn't he? Probably not a fanatic.

Gee Working Man, all I was asking was did you know who was running in Vancouver Centre for The Conservative Party, why did I get the response I got. Is it because you consider any Conservative a right wing fanatic or something ?

I do not care who the Reform-Conservative candidate is and yes, I believe there are plenty of reactionary wing nuts in the Reform party (Randy White and Doris Day to name two). I am sure you can look it up of you are interested.

as opposed to Hedy Fry? Randy White looks like Ignatieff in comparison. I don't know, seems like the lawyer would be the preferred choice in that riding. Assuming, and I am, he doesn't believe dinosaurs and man walked the earth together a la the Flintstones.

I also live in Vancouver Centre and will be working my tail off for the hardest working MP to set foot in Ottawa the past 25 years.

I have a feeling this is going to be a bit of a so-called bell weather riding this time round.

Nothing in the world short of a frontal lobotomy could make Frankenharper look less scary. That kid wasn't laughing. She was screaming in terror.

What is a reform-conservative candidate. Did I miss the forming of a new party or something ?
Is it like a NDP-CCF candidate ? Or a Toronto NDP candidate ?
Boy, you sure learn a lot visiting this site.

Ron, don't patronise me. You know what I mean.

Chreten and Martin behave like a piano player in a brothel who claims that he does not know what ladies are doing upstairs. They are either accessories to crime or incompetent. Harper said that Liberals were associating themselves with organized crime. I would call it disorgenized crime, because Real Gangsters like Soviet, Vietnamese, Italian Mafia or our homegrown Hell's Angels do not allow any whistle blowers, invite their enemies into flammable night clubs and burn them. Those from the sponsorship (grand theft of taxpayers money) are amateurs, counting on Martin to pardon them on a way out.

counting on Martin to pardon them on a way out

A Prime Minister cannot pardon people. That is the role of the National Parole Board.

latarnik, I know you like to fantasize about what real gangsters look like and although I find it amusing and it makes good sound bites we must take a stop back and ask ourselves why if this corruption is so wide spread are the polls STILL putting the Liberals ahead, I know allot of folks out west love to call people names and say their all just stupid in ONT but be honest why do people reject conservatism in the urban centers.

1) Their anti human rights, their immigration policy makes Somalia look civil
my God, pun intended, Stockwell day is the immigration critic, a man that walks with dinosaurs, he
ignorance and racism regarding immigration issues is well know in the Urban ethnic communities.

2) Tough on crime gang, this grand standing and pimping every victim for political mileage is gross and frankly
city folks know tougher and dumber does not work, if it did the US would be the safest country in the world. Texas
and other death penalty states have some of the highest murder rates.
3) Their anti Canadian, most Canadians relate is a more moral code of ethics and universal health care, education and social programs, the conservatives are very pro privatization and have that US cowboy attitude of do it alone etc.
4) Their pro military intervention, most Canadians cringe over holding hands with Bush on his latest adventure.
5) Their anti choice, anti gay, anti minority rights, basically anyone that wants rights their against it. To many fundamentalist Christians in the party to see straights.

We have a massive country with 100's on ministries and how many folks have been involved in sponsorship, do you have evidence, the entire cost of sponsorship is less than the cost of this election.

In short all you have to do is bring up crime, rights issues and the military and ONT will not budge nor will Quebec or the East coast, good luck and good night, I am voting NDP the only party to accomplish something in the house .

Just bring out abortion or native issues, military issues and you get a 100 Ron Erwins coming out of the woodwork.

Which is exactly what the Liberals want. The polls are stuck at Libreal 35, Reform-Conservative 27, NDP 16, Bloc 14 and Green 6. I do not see that changing much since this is an election nobody wants.

Ummmmm last time I checked there were 39 federal ministies, Stuart.

Sponsorship was small beans compared to Airbus, btw.

Corruption at the federal level is ok?

I disagree. The Liberal party STOLE millions of dollars. Its paid some back but we lost more than we got paid back. And I'm still waiting to see some Liberals go to jail.

The culture that the Gomery inquiry put on display is something you'd expect fromn a banana republic.

I would say the only good comparison that can be made is at least federally we found out what happened, provincially we still don't know the whole Basi-Virk-Liberals story.

I know it might seem naive to want a government made up people that don't drive drunk, steal property, hand out public money to friends and receive kickbacks to the party and don't receive suitcases of cash from Hong Kong investors or German businessmen but I can dream.

Stephen Harper recently said in Vancouver that those who do not like Liberals and think about voting NDP instead, are like people who do not like Organ Grinder and would rather vote for his Monkey. NDP, having no chance in hell to form Federal Government can promise anything, knowing darn well that nobody will put their feet into the fire if they do not keep their promises.
In BC, they would rather built fast ferries which would not float for half a billion dollars, rather than built hospitals. No brain and no heart, what's left?
Using civil servants pension funds as a collateral for NDP deficits, enslaves the whole province to some obscure US bankers, who were caught laundering money of the Soviet Mafia. Now socialists own the banks and capitalists are struggling to pay taxes. Isn't it a capital punishment? Socialists taxing you on your capital to go into competition with you. When their ill conceived business fails, they tax you some more to cover their deficit!

To Workig Man,
Do you know who has been appointing members of the Parole Boards for the last 35 years or so? Libranos, that's who!

Except the NDP balanced the budget and it was the Libs who ran a record deficit. The few hundred million spent on fast ferries (which did float and could have been reworked to run on this coast) will be dwarfed by the cost overruns of RAV and the Olympics not to mention the money lost by buying foreign ferries instead of doing the work here.

As for Stepen Harper he has as much chance of being PM one day as Jack Layton so he might as well put on the monkey hat. Which is why he can promise thousands to every family while cutting everyone's taxes, he knows he'll never have to worry about actually doing it.

Frank, the federal NDP has never elected a government and the provincial Liberal Party is not affiliated in any way with the federal Liberal party.

At my age, I do not expect choir boys as politicians. Seems NDP ones can be just as crooked as any other, btw. Besides, the NDP does not have a snowball's chance in hades of forming a federal government. If they manage to get 25 seats they will be jumping for joy. In my experience, NDPers tend to be very vocal, holier than thou and get tons of media. However, they do not get more than 15-20% (if extremely lucky) of the popular vote. This will translate to about 20 seats. Demograpics are working against the NDP and they fail to realise that.

That is true but the Liberals have governed for most of Canada's history. The whole process of a pardon takes at least five years anyway. Have a read of Stevie Cameron's On the Take if you have some free time.

WM, laternik was referring to the provincial NDP and the federal NDP in his comment.

WM, as you yourself have stated, many pick the Liberals because they are in the middle of the "extreme" left and right. If the NDP didn't exist it therefore stands to reason that Cdn politics would shift to the right because the centre would now be between the Libs and Cons.

So that 20% and 25 seats keeps the federal government always a little worried about its left flank and therefore keeps the "centre" of Cdn politics more to the left than it otherwise would be. Which is why I would cheer if the NDP got 40 seats.

I'm an American, so pardon if this seems bad form to comment... But I note a parallel between the fortunes of the Liberals in Cda and the GOP down here. I know the Dems think they can get back some measure of power by saying they are not Rs, but, even though I vote D, I am sure voters and citizens want more than to "throw the bastards out". We do not need different thieves in power, we need less thievery! And that means less corporate influence in our politics.

Throwing out the bastard Libs may sound/feel appealing; but stop and think: do you want to be sending Canadian soldiers into Iraq as well as Afganistan? Do you want a leader who is politically Geo.W's twin when there are trade issues ( lumber, fish, water et c.) that need to be resolved fairly for Cda? Do you want a country to head towards not having health care if you are in the lower 50%-ile of income?

It is no surprise that Mr. Mair says his neck of the woods wants changes in its representation, certainly we all find the folks we send to do a job find ways to do some one else's along the way. And we want new public servants when this happens.

The reality is that we need to devote a great deal of time riding herd on our representatives, MPs, MLAs what ever, we need to be back in the capitol and shoing up at their offices and saying "My name is Joe and I am from Prince Rupert and I am here to talk to you about how bad salmon farms are." I have been able to do this some recently, and it is very exciting, to participate, not spectate.

So Mr. Mair, to you and your readers, try getting in their faces beyond voting time. Be in their hair during budgeting, during trade negotiations, during environmental summits, just be there when and how you can. You may find you get listened to and you may find your self satisfied with your government since you put in more than your taxes and your vote. Good Luck!

We agree on something, green. :-) But it will continue to be so long as all the current parties dominate the process in a fptp electoral system and the Cons are actually considered some kind of radical change.

Other than that, lots of interesting comments from the usual "left" contributors, such as Grumpy whom I always agree with more than not, and the same with Stuart and a number of otners, of course.

My personal hope is for either a total collapse of the electoral system with a zero voter turnout, which might not be so far fetched as that sounds at first blush. The trend of declining voter participation is there and has been since the late 70s, which coincides (coincidentaly???) with the rise of neoconism in Canada. (See for more recent stats. From 75.3% in 1984 to 67% in 1997.) I mean, a 30% turnout in the Vancouver municipal election just about makes that electoral outcome an irrelevant bust, and if my memory serves, even fed and provincial are just over the 50% mark. And if you are talking Atlantic Canada and Aboriginals, its firmly under 50%. All symptomatic of a growing loss of validity and a popular throwing up of citizen hands in disgust at the choices available to them. A precursor of tempestuous times? Which leads to where, as we go forward here, is anyone's guess, but does not auger well.

On the other hand, another minority government would at least slow the deterioration by tying the hands of the State and "the private sector" from going forward with any too, too unpopular measures, which is the historical tendency with those cherished clear cut majorities, they so aspire to for their corporate backers. Which will propably be my "sensible" choice to advocate, and I do to "impress" folks. Though, in honesty, it is not necessarily my emotional/sentimental favourite-, for I dearly would love to see this period brought to a sudden and necessary resolving outcome-, which it will anyway in its own good time, I know. But I am rather an impatient fellow. Anything but this ho-hum bland to reactionary predictability that produces only endlessly depressing deja vus.

For so long as we are locked into the current arrangement of economics and politics, and I don't care if the State economists have raised interest rates again because the economy, from their ruling class coupon clippers and paper shufflers perspective, is burning along white hot producing dynamite dividends and endless quantities of minimum wage shitjobs for the prols, this is the boring, drip, drip declining reality best it is going to get.

I'm even getting bored talking politics. It too is getting just too, too deja vu an experience. :-D Current reality needs a new, more adventurous woman/man in his/her life.

'Except the NDP balanced the budget and it was the Libs who ran a record deficit' now there's the laugh of the year that's for sure. can you say glennocchio frankie-boy? w.a.c. had it right all along: the socialist hordes couldn't run a popcorn stand. AND THEY MAY NEVER DO SO AGAIN!!!!

Yet they run that proverbial stand better than the Libs, go figure eh.

Point well taken. The Liberals are the consumate political machine and well know that Canadians love big spending government. Actually, I do not see any poltical party promising any real change this time around. Harper saw his 25% tax cut fantasy go down in flames last time, Layton can promise everything to everybody all the time because he will never form a government and the Liberals can spend the war chest they have been building for just this scenario.

Raif? A liar and a thief? Indeed, but that's a story that's been long forgotten. Look back to before he got elected the first time.

Harper's not a liar and a thief, it's just that John Reynold's has his hand up his back and is making the dummy's mouth move. It's easy to confuse the dummy for the puppet master.

Harper announced a tax break for small business today. I will be fun to see today, the demonizing of small business the same as the put down of motherhood that we saw earlier in this string by the Toronto NDP and Ottawa Lib types that plaque this site.
I was disgusted with the negative response most of you had against families in Canada.

Welcome benni hana

We love the American people but sometimes have issue like yourself with the American administration. I think we need more cross border organizing etc , because what our governments do effects all of us.

To Frank

I never said corruption is okay, all I was pointing out is the clear fact that the population would rather tolerate
some corruption then get swept away by a right wing agenda. Compared to the national budget the amount of corruption is not great, certainly not more corrupt then lying Brian, we knew their was corruption 18
months ago and the public voted in a minority government. This whole election is a betrayal of the public by party insiders greedy for more power .

And latarnik, say what you like about the NDP but they wrote the last national budget diverting 5 billion in
corporate welfare to social housing, the environment and education. When we elect the next minority government the NDP will also have a say or we will be doing to the polls every 18 months which the public will not have the stomach for. As far as the fast ferries , Washington Marine group is refitting them now in North Van, they will soon be used as harbor to harbor ferries between North Van and Nanaimo, the deal is in the works. They will make big bucks and everyday Gordo and crew will be reminded what ideological twits they are. More concerned with embarrassing the NDP then getting a fair deal or taking advise.

Just of the press and it is a death wish for Stevie Harper.

The Washington Post just wrote an article on Harper saying he;s anti Kyoto, Pro Iraq war, Pro Free Trade etc,pre religious values, and that if elected him and BUSH would be great friends, and that the election of Harper would be electing the most right wing conservative the west has ever seen.
I have tying to dig up the article,

Stuart,

The article you refer to was from the Washington Times. You can read it here:

http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20051201-081526-4938r.htm

Here's my favorite quote:

"Move over Tony Blair: If elected, Mr. Harper will quickly become Mr. Bush's new best friend internationally and the poster boy for his ideal foreign leader. "

I wonder how Harper felt about this piece...

Does Harper ever take a good picture?

The one on this thread looks like he just got a glimpse of Belinda's breasts!

The Washington Times article warms my soul, but it will not do any damage to Steven Harper.
Generally, nobody will ever here about it, and if they do, I am sure everyone has their mind made up by now anyway.
You either want CHANGE or you don't.
I know most of my friends are voting for CHOICES.

Thanks Verso , you Rock.

Get this article circulated around big time, keep emailing it to all major news outlets and CBC etc. Print of copies and post it up everywhere, take it to all candidates meetings, ask Conservatives about
Kyoto, Iraq etc.

Email this article to organizations to get the vote out. Basically use this article everywhere you can, co workers neighbors, news outlets, public forums, street corner. Etc. Make our pro American opposition pay a
price. Unless you pry to be more like America aka Ron Erwin

Stuart, don't worry about it, Harper isn't going to win the election. Sending an editorial from the Moonies is only going to frighten NDP and Greens into voting Lib.

I think the Libs deserve to be punished. Sure, they'll still win but I'd like to see their seat count reduced even further.

Returning a Lib majority would simply be telling them that corruption is ok, we expect it.

Where and amongst whom? Who said that?

More sweeping Right Wingnut generalizations that don't count for doo doo, insofar as "people" are concerned.

On the other hand, an examination of corporate welfare programmes, such as sundry subsidies, tax breaks, research, development and marketing grants, forgiveable loans and various other forms of programme assistance and underwriting, provides a kind of socialist environment exclusively for the benefit of the wealthy corporate elite.

But then it was perhaps to this "lavish spending" that workingman (so-called) was referring, ya think?

Frank, sorry but I am as you should be worried about it. We need to get busy if we want to keep these right wing nut jobs out of office. I am trying to target the Liberal voters that may switch to conservative and remind them what their doing. I don't think any NDP supporters will vote conservative
or switch but we need to keep folks away from voting conservative. If they vote NDP great but 2nd best would be if they kept their vote Liberal. I think most NDP voters are firmly set but worry about swing voters turning to the conservative party with the next 2 months corporate media talking about corruption
and so called Change etc. We need to keep reminding voters that voting for Steven Harper is like voting for BUSH and prepare ourselves for deep integration. Maybe next time we'll be voting democratic or republican , I know the Fraser pimpstiture would love it, truning Canada into the next client state.

So it's Liberal/NDP aginst the Conservatives.
Loving every minute of it.
I knew it would come down to yhis.
Thank's Stuart for your help.
I know Canadians love CHOICES.

You know, I hope the cons do win, just s they can muck the entire nation up in one term...again, get voted out and forgotten about for another couple decades.

I am a conservative, in that I believe in conserving things. Where is that in the Conservative platform?

Instead, I see a guy who is toadying to the fag-haters. As if that is a topic of the least importance to anyone but the most frivolous gossips.

I assume he knows his base, and therefore "Conservatives" are not people I can stand shoulder to shoulder with.

Have a look at any provincial or federal budget. Compared to the population of said territories, they are huge. British Columbia's budget for fiscal 2006 is $34,000,000,000 for a population of 4,500,000. That is fantastically huge, a number so large most people cannot wrap their minds about it. The entire operating budget of the Republic of the Philippines is US$18 bn, or about $21bn Canadian in comparision. Were are not talking small beans here.

What is more, try to, or actually cut, somebody's pet programme. The cries of indignation and of the end of the world are so shrill nobody remembers what the programme did to begin with.

Is big spending government a bad thing? Not necessarily but the first step in self fulfuilment is admission. Canadian governments of all stripes spend like mad and most voters love it.

YEah, so I guess we should be aiming for the quality of life they enjoy in the Philipines. Then when we get into a major emergency that our tiny budget hasn't prepared us for, we can ask for help from the nations that DO spend more money.... sound familiar?

jamez, you just described our Defense Dept.
We depend on Americans to help us when in need of protection.

But who will protect us from the US as they slowley take over Canada. Anyway last time the US came we kicked their buttt, remember 1812, we burned down their White House, we're really sorry .

You can't take it with you. It's there to be spendt. It's what creates the demand that pulls the economy along and meets the needs of folks.

As it is, it best serves the already wealthy, of course. And corporations certainly love it, so long as it is being spent on the them and their Wish List.

They only whine when it is being spent on the poor and needy. They should just get off their needy asses and take a minimum wage job. Spending on them apparently undermines their incentive to work.

Spending it on the already wealthy, on the other hand, apparently performs miracles and only encourages them to work and profit.

What crap capitalism and its apologists spew.

I would say Canadians are safer around the world more so than US citizens. Countries who associate more with the US are in more danger. You don't see US tourist pinning US flags on their luggage , we are a huge country with a tiny population, to maintain the services we do is commendable, you don't like than leave. Go have lower taxes in the US but pay user fees at every corner or just be one of those 44 mil Americans with no health care.

And more crap from Swervin' Erwin, the Yankee wannabe.

Depending on the US is like asking the fox to tend after the chickens.

We do it, of course, in the mistaken belief it is more their own interests the US acts out of, while they themselves are taking us over and undermining our national sovereignty (and the examples abound everywhere) faster than any Middle East terrorist or other invading "foreigner". But then, we all know who the real major terrorist is in the world today, eh.

Then also of course, a fool is born every minute, as any good supporter of capitalism and its market morality knows by heart.

Better we look after and protect ourselves, and tell 'em to phuck off. This country is a fool and bootlick amongst nations. Glad you agree, Swervin' Erwin.

Love ya sweetheart. You're such an easy slut. :-)

More ignorance of the third world. A country like the Philippines doesn't have the money to spend because it does not have the economic base. I suppose when you have never been farther than Kelowna.......

I'm well aware of the point you're making. ANd in countering my point you showed the flaws in your own sad attempt.
You also neglected to factor in currency differences and comodity prices in the Phillipines.
AS well, if you wanted to talk of third world ignorance I'd suggest you take a look at the quality of life in those nations BEFORE you start holding up their national budget as a comparison to ours..

Hey, I agree, we should spend more on defence. However we don't need to go buck-wild like the AMericans do. Instead of spending that money on other things we need.

But for all the US military, why was it Canadian ships in Louisianna distributing aid?

And good points all, jamez. :-)

The American Neo-Con economic model. Rob the nation blind and blame it on Osama bin Laden. Come on Rotten Ronny, put your sleuth hat on and find this madman and save youre beloved nation. If the banks in the Philippines called in their loans America would collapse.

What's amazing is that we have our Pride Parade and the gay community is all out celebrating their beliefs. It's a good cultural event and I think it's great for every city to celebrate our diversity and tolerance. Yet, I'm out walking with my wife and kids on the beach, I believe in a certain religion and I'm a radical right wing nutcase?

Jack Layton has no hope of winning the election, we all know that.

Aside from changing the definition of marriage and Adscam, I like the platform and policies of the federal Liberals. However, I believe that the Federal Liberals HAVE TO BE PUNISHED for being corrupt thieving miscreants.

A vote for the Liberals is a vote for corruption.

I belive Harper deserves a chance and he is getting my vote.

Alright... here comes the onslaught...

Why should there be an onslaught Jeeves. You and your wife are entitled to both an opinion and a vote. This is still Canada, of course barely.

I just hope you can reconsider and vote for an NDP candidate so that in the land of plenty you aren't tripping over the homeless and mentaly challanged whilst you stroll the beach.

I sometimes wonder if those who write here from the right of centre even grew up in this country and remember what it was like from coast to coast 20 years ago.

You didn't have to worrry about being panhandled, beaten up, or shot. The streets were clean. No one was hungry. Kids could walk to school in the morning and play outside till dark. They were in better physical shape because of this.

The right wing fiscal experiment has been a social disaster. Its not to late to fix it either. I pay a pretty hefty tax load, but I don't give a shit about that. What I want is my taxes to go back into education and skills training, social housing, handicap assistance and infrastructure. And I want my country to have an independant foreign policy and if our neighbors don't like it, tough. They can get their own damn oil from Venezuela.

Then we can all enjoy the beach with Jeeves.Maybe our kids can be friends. Maybe get a volleyball game together like Canadian's used to do. Its really not that hard and its certainly not a difficult choice.

"Liberals HAVE TO BE PUNISHED for being corrupt thieving miscreants.

A vote for the Liberals is a vote for corruption. "

SO we're to put up with RW crap for god knows how long? No way

if you vote for the liberals you're perpetrating corruption, arrogance and abuse of power. if you're a true lefty you have to vote for the ndp and the used-car salesman. go for it guys. good on ya'!!!!

I hate being so late to a party. Now that I am here, I have to agree with the old hot air technician's point of view. Harper was smart to bring up his "thoughts" on the future of "marriage" in Canada the first day of the campaign. This is damn near the first time I have ever agreed with Rafe on a secondary matter.

I have to wonder whether there is still one Republican Strategist left in the Uber Alles underemployed. It seems to me that the Right is running a FINE, and hypocritical campaign, one which must cause certain choking motions in the throats of the usual media guru's who whine constantly about the "Liberals buying us with our own tax dollars". Twelve Hundred Bucks a year for every child under six?. Paid directly to the parents?. What is it in the definition of the words "taxpayer bribe" that our Corporate Media does not wish to promulgate equally? As if I need an answer.

What is it with the Cons, do they not have the capabily of reading history? Do they think "Hard Times" is a work of fiction? Seasonally speaking is, "A Christmas Carol" a mere Hollywood myth? These Jokers are dragging us back to those days faster than they can read. And with about as much awareness. Shite, we do not even have Victoria Regina to make us feel good about it.

Hey Jeeves

Layton may not win the election but chances are we will have another minority gov in which Jack has been the only effective member of parliament to get something done. Remember Without the NDP the gay marriage bill would not have passed, and with Harper being a social conservative he will allow
a free vote on the issue, translation- If he wins a majority you kiss that right goodbye, but don't worry electing an extreme right wing gov will be good for Canada and rights issues. Just look south of the 49th if you want to see how a Harper gov will rule.

Whoa! When has Canada ever needed protection from an agressor power? During the Cold War Canada would have been the buffer state protecting the Excited-States for cryng out loud. We would have been the dumping ground for failed Soviet and US weapons of mass destruction. Depending on the US for protection is just a myth of Canarican wishfull thinking.
Elbowing the Brits aside to become to become "Dubbya's" best friend is the last thing Canadians need. Ronnie has lost his soother again.

This sweeping, absolutely certain generalization with little or no basis in fact, much like those of Workingman and Ronnie "Wannabe" Erwin, are what may be causing folks to associate you with the other Right Wingnuts here, Jeeves. (Love the "servant to the ruling class" moniker, which may not be helping either. :-)

I haven't decided my own vote yet. The issue being, hould I do the "perceived" sensible thing, probably by most lefties here, and vote NDP or, if I buy into the Buzz Hargrove tactic, depending on specific riding situations, vote Liberal even? The latter which is near anathema to me, and only a possibility were the choice absolute Fascism or the Liberals.

On the other hand, I'm not convinced that simply joining the growing body of non-voters is not in and of itself a kind of "non-confidence" vote on the current system. I'm still weighing the pros and cons of that electoral strategy for myself.

But now, regardless of what any one of us thinks about this or that party, or the inadequacy of all of them and the entire system itself, like I was saying, Wingnuts keep making these sweeping generalizations about not only the "absolute" impossibility of a majority NDP outcome, or indeed any left option. The intent behind these statements about what they certainly cannot know for sure, anymore than myself or anybody else here, is to try and plant the self-fulfilling "power of suggestion" into the public consciousness, of course.

The point being, because these twits cannot, nor certainly show any evidence here that they have anymore insights into objective reality and all possibilities therein than the rest of us, they are merely bleating their own ideological/political party line. Which is okay, so long as we know it, and don't make the mistake of thinking these guys are actually some kind of gifted political savants. (I mean, really consider the saucer of water depth of Swervin' Erwins analyses. There's not enough there to get your intellectual big toe into, for a good soak even.)

Continued next post..

Continued from previous post...

What is clear, increasingly, I think, is that we are approaching a kind of "cusp" moment in the political development of capitalism in this country-, and possibly much of the rest of the capitalist world-, in the US and Europe as well. Canadians, for sure, are far from clear or of a national concencus about where they want to go from here, or where they think they even can, given the severely circumscribed political choices available to them out there. All of them much seem rooted in the status quo, and ever more inadequate to the national task. (For sure true from the point of view and interests of the Great Unwashed.)

And in such a situation as this, if not just "anything", then for sure many more things than usual are at least possible. The only issue tending to tie folks to the Liberals in fact, in the face of their obvious arrogance and corruption, nearly everyone understands, is a greater public fear of the Neocon Conservatives. And out of that reality my friend, if folks can, in a "**** it!" eureka moment in the polling station, find the wherewithall to actually punish the Liberals and make a break, it is at least as likely that they will do so with a vote for the NDP as the Conservatives. In my view, more likely.

I mean, c'mon, a majority of Canadians has to know by now that the NDP pose no more serious threat to capitalism and the status quo than do Tony Blair's "Labour Party" in Great Britain. They are of the same pale washed, capitalism with a human face partisan views, no more threatening than the Liberals, for sure. Indeed, it might be argued (by me) that they are the REAL Liberals in this country. (The "trust factor" is higher for the NDP than anyone else out there. Poll after poll demonstrates that. However misplaced.)

Me, myself and I's only real issue with that is, from further out here in left field than most here, do I really think anything really worthwhile is likely to come out of endorsing that kind of a Blairite/NDP option myself?

And my answer to myself, to here anyway is, a simple and quiet, "No."

Indeed, I think, over time, more may be likely to come out of swelling the ranks of the non-participatory vote. Either one is cutting edge or a follower. :-)

I see you perspective coyote but it boils down to 2 simple choices, do the hard work of creating a new party or local group that can lobby effectively or join a political party and do your best to reshape it or take it over . So we can either vote coke or Pepsi or try something new like say the NDP. I love the media and others writing them off. Just remember they had the fewest seats and accomplished the most in the house, they also rose above all the silly games that were going on. Canadians know this and will not punish the Liberals by voting for a non progressive party like the conservatives.

Now I don't put much into the polls but yesterdays are worth mentioning.
The East coast is basically the status quo, the Liberals will take the majority with the NDP next and the conservatives
may squeak out 1 - 3 seats.

Quebec will see the Liberals lose say 3 or 4 seats tops , the conservatives and NDP will be shut out of Quebec.

Now Ont was very interesting, we had the Lib at 33%, Conser 31% and NDP 27% , now let me say that again NDP 27%, they have never been that close to mainstream in ONT>

They NDP well pick up some seats in Man and Sask this time and pick up say a half dozen in BC, If the big centers in Toronto and the Golden horseshoe go NDP we may get a big surprise in Canada.

And remember the low voter turnout, the NDP is getting the young voter like never before.

Voter turnout will be very important. There is one thing I know, and even Carolyn Parrish agrees, is that Conservative voters, who are generally of an older demographic, are very dedicated to their party and will crawl over glass in order to vote.
I am praying for a blizzard on election day.
We got lot's of Hummers to drive supporters to the polls.

Hey I think Ronnies got it right for once.

The Typical conservative voter is an old white prick driving around in SUV's and hummers. I don't think it's broken glass that has them on their knees thou, its them crawling up to their US masters.

The typical Toronto NDP voter is a person walking around in circles trying to find enough money on the ground to get him to Venezuela where he can get down on his knees and worship Hugo Chavez. I don't even people in BC can say this party is anything like the Provincial NDP, who because they have at least some possibility of maybe getting into power someday, have moved to the center, and have some appeal to BC voters.
But The Toronto NDP can go around saying wahtever they want, with no fear of ever having to come through with some of their promises. Promises that are so goofy they would break up the country if they ever enacted them.
But, again, I am happy to see the Toronto NDP get as many votes as they can, because every vote they get is one less for the Liberals.
I love to see the left split between these two parties, because the Conservatives will be the winners.

Looks like Harper's "Shaking in his Boots", to quote Elsie Wayne. Harper's still parting his hair to the right so his image still reminds me of Adolf. Stick some black felt pen under his nose and the likeness is remarkable. Harper can say what ever he wants. He'll never be elected PM. It's his image. Who's going to want to look at a Hitler clone every night on the news or even send one around the world and expect to be taken seriously. It's like he's out of Monty Python. Even God could not overcome such a handicap like the Torys have saddled themselves with.

Okay, there's my chuckle at a Wingnut's expense for the day. Good one, Stu.

Like I say, Ronnie, and in agreement with Eddy, It's only fear of a Conservative victory that keeps many folks voting Liberal, these moderate conservative inheritors of the old PC tradition, which is what the so-called Liberals have become. (Phuck! Where have I heard that word "moderate" before???!!! It's become almost a religious article of faith. :-) It's the Conservative Party and Harpo who have the most serious image problem amongst those hallowed "average" voters.

Though you are right about the wealthy and bootlick Conservative. Being the most frequent victors in the fptp game, regardless of which party wins, they give the extant electoral system more credibility than many of the masses, and are thus more inclined to turn out to vote. That much I will give you-, as one of your paltry few insightful observations here.

The system still needs to be broken up and opened up to more viewpoints however, certainly Greens, and a more radical left alternative, aligned ideas-wise to the left of the NDP. And it's the near hopelessness of this Stuart, under the current FPTP systems everywhere in the country, AND the media/ideas monopoly system that prevents the emergence of other political/party alternatives with any serious opportunity to break through the strategic voting patterns which result.

For that "openin up" to occur, I think, the current system needs to fall into greater disuse and discredit, and more voters to simply walk away from it and take with them the credibility and legitimacy they give to it. It carries "some" risks with it to be sure, but so does continuing on the current course, as the country slides South and the economic and poltical system moves increasingly to the right anyway. The radical policy shifts to the right which already occured since the 1980s have all happened within the current strategic voting FPTP system.

On the other hand, the withdrawl of legitimacy that comes with non-participation frees up people to organize and act outside the current "control systems" -, and in the discredit that "non-participation rate" is already bringing to the status quo electoral system, arouse greater questioning of the system itself and stimulate pressures to change it and open it up to wider circles of opinion and solutions.

I would not have advocated that to here, but I really do think the political dynamic of the country is changed and changing, to the degree that such a tactical possibility has to be more seriously considered. (Though even then, it would be a drip, drip kind of thing, that will have to work away over time, again as it already is, and be allowed to, and encouraged as a legitimate social change tactic.) And as for risk, nothing significant is ever changed without, often, serious levels of risk, and a tad bit of anarchy. My view.

For Coyote and Stuart,

The simple statement that sums up what you two have discussed regarding party formations/afiliations is

"Lead, Follow, or Get Out Of The Way."

The Liberals and Conservatives are fighting it out to lead.
The NDP will follow.
The BQ wants out.

Murdock,

Now I'll 'fess, I had to mind-suck on that one for awhile, to try and get the flavour. I'm not so sure about the BQ, but I do buy the rest of your characterization about the status quo flavours of the period.

The Liberals and Conservatives are duking it out for leadership of the ruling class view and interests, no doubt. And the NDP will follow-, in the end. Too true, at least since Woodworth and Douglas. As it applies also to the trade union movement, unfortunately. (Though there are some tentative signs that may be about to be challenged by elements of the latter.)

Which is a big part of the NDP problem, insofar as how it is perceived by the great body politic I think, correctly actually. It really is a "following" movement. Following to the centre.

Ditto Greens, who are also currently in "follow" mode. Thinking especially of Ms Carr.

Hey Coyote:

That kind of response is what I expected. It's just an opinion.

Do you feel that Jack Layton can win the election? Do you really think so Coyote?

I have loathed the Campbell Liberals since 2001 when they began their pillaging and plundering. I actively supported the NDP in provincial politics.

I want to vote for a party that will at least ensure the theiving scum Libranos don't get a majority.

I really enjoyed seing the newly minted crime czar Ujjal Dosangh promise me he'll rid our streets of guns.

A vote for the federal Liberals is a vote for corruption. I know, I know... he was just the Finance Minister at the time. What's he supposed to know about the money?

Why are right-wing parties in BC are promoting anti-Indian activists? Does this really reflect the values of British Columbians or corporate interests using hate to organize voters?

The BC Conservatives have Phil Eidsvik, co-founder of BC Fisheries Survival Coalition, as their candidate in Delta now. He helped to create this organization to attack native fishing rights which threaten corporate interests (e.g, Jimmy Pattison's). Eidsvik's role is clearly spelled out in the book Salmon Wars.

Martyn Brown, the BC Liberals Chief of Staff, was an organizer for BC FIRE, the Reform Party's anti-Indian umbrella organization.

And Rafe Mair served early as the mouth piece for the movement. He even wrote the Foreword to the anti-Indian movement's bible, Our Home or Native Land.

Finally, Conservative MP Cummins is running again. He has served as the Conservative Party's lead man in the anti-Indian movement.

You crack me up. What a load of nonsense. Layton has about as much chance of forming a goverment as I do going to the moon tomorrow night. Get a hold of reality woman.

Yeah, but it doesn't mean Layton can't be welcomed into government. We're going to get a minority, its just the question of whose.

Sorry Coyote but

I only hope, given the topic, that you did not come away with bad mind-breath!

ROFL

You have an interesting an humerous way of expressing things.

:-P

You know ! I can't ever think of a time when an article and picture of a Canadian leader has evoked quite as much comment and emotion as this article and image of anyone since the Gordon Campbell mug shot.
This thread is really long.
I think that this Harper guy, is going to surprise all his detractors.
Why ? because he owes nobody anything.
He is pure.

Geez Ron, did you have to say pure? I had one of those cough-chokey things happen. All of you at the Tyee would have missed me I'm sure.

Gotta say, crh had the best comment on Harper's pic.

But just how does he owe "nobody anything" more than Layton or Martin?

Anyway, we both know he isn't gonna win anything except Alberta. After the election he'll probably join the Fraser Institute and the Cons can resume their long process of introspection on why they never win.

Ever wonder by all the some papers who used to be Liberal are now compaigning against the Liberals and for Harper? Odd isn't it? It appears that the media runs the country and the world - when all the papers, all the talk shows hosts and a blitz of phony callers and letter writers trained and brain washed by the NCC, etc are working away like a pack of jackals. They seem to work on the philosophy that if you tell enough lies and exaggeration repeatedly it will be perceived as truth. I think a huge investigation of the motives behind some of the crap going on would be a great thing in this country. I just hope people are smart enough to recognise the phony spin and read between the lines.

Actually Rebel...I know of few people who actually read newspapers. When they do they tend to go to the sports section to get some factual news. As for those turkeys on the radio, most people take it a pure entertainment and not as an information source. Those who are gullible enough to believe the spin are those whose minds have already been convinced from some other factor. A good example is M. Campbell. When his brother introduced income tax cuts, he also implemented a sales tax increase. Mikey orated over and over again how that was the way to go because consumption taxes were fair and income taxes were not. Today he favors Harper's position that consumption taxes are evil. Go figure?

The discussion of the upcoming election does not raise the solution to the problem, which is to change our voting system. I think we would all like:
- a choice between a liberal who is a member of the Liberal Party of Canada and a liberal who has nothing to do with that party
- a choice between one of Mr. Harper's conservatives and a conservative who has nothing to do with the Conservative Party
- a choice between an NDP candidate and a different socialist.
- being able to vote for a Green Party, libertarian, or independent candidate without wasting our votes.
As well, I want to state my preference and have my vote transferred if my first choice is not elected.
STV would provide us with all this. Other voting systems do not.

If you would like to try out an STV ballot go to the demochoice web site. Here you can still ‘vote’ in the civic election just finished. All you have to do is to rank the candidates you would like to have on the city council. You can see how your ‘vote’ would have counted, along with all the other ‘votes’. Of course the 'results' may not be anything like those of the real election since people can vote many times and the ‘voters’ are not representative of the population. The web site is demochoice.ca.

You can also now 'vote' in the current Federal election on this web site. At present there are very few votes; more 'votes' are needed for it to make sense, so please 'vote'.

We need to elect politicians who will set up a citizens’ forum to study the various voting systems and recommend changes. The process was started during the last parliament, but appears to have been shelved.

eddy haskel

How right you are about Michael Campbell - it reminds me of him on the radio with Jerry Nichols VP of National Citizens Coalition and Harper as former President talking about the Gag Law and presenting it as a terrible law that would take away their freedom of speech and how they could spend their money. When in fact it was a good law that evened the playing field for all candidiates by limiting outside
big Corpoations donations for media Ads spending millions to buy the vote. Today Berner was on CKNW pulling the same stant and whining about freedom of speech - unfortunately so many callers do seem to believe this crap and allow their voting decisions to be swayed by smooth talking propagandists. Its amazing that we live in the most wonderful country in the world - recognized around the world as the best place to live - a great economy and many of us with precious little to complain about in reality and everybody it bitching and complaining, talking about Western separation (count me OUT of that stupid idea). Its almost like cannabilism - can't stand success so we have to keeping pushing to destroy ourselves just because they have been sold this bill of goods that its time for a change. I thought a Liberal/NDP Government was just the right mix for Canada and I hope they both get more seats this time around - I'm sick to death of elections and wish it had been conducted in an orderly fashion in the spring after the second Gomery Report the way the PM wanted it.

David Huntley, why don't you tell us why a mixed-PR system wouldn't be better than STV

No bloody surprise here!

It's the old chicken standing on one leg analogy, until it gets tired, amd then stands on the other leg for awhile. It's called "capitalist democracy".

Either leg does for them really. Both are still part of the same chicken. Nothing really changes.

Which is the plan, of course.

I would like to see a Conservative win with a very slim majority. They are a new and untried party made up of diverse groups. The slim majority will keep them on their toes and well behaved, plus the significant learning curve should keep them busy for the first term. I don’t see them being in a position to make any fundamental changes that people fear. You can be sure that the Bloc will be a significant power in the house and will be holding their noses to the grindstone.

One of the fundamentals of a democratic system is to make sure no party stays in power for to long. The liberals are a classical example of what happens when they do, abuse of power, corruption and a feeling that they are entitled to the power they hold, rather than the privilege of being able to exercise it.

There are roughly 5 million firearms owners in Canada, I think the proposed ban on handguns which breaks another Liberal promise, will ensure that none of them vote for the Liberals.

The latest speech by the U.S. Ambassador in which he blasted the Liberals for being anti-American convinced me that I should vote liberal.
Of course it is not the first time we've had foreigners trying to influence our election outcome.
However, my main reason for a liberal vote would be that there doesn't seem to be anyone else who could do any better....

I think that he was saying that if you want to use them as a whipping boy for election points then be prepared to pay for the tune later. Not exactly interfering with our election.

I just read an interesting item, from the Globe & Mail yet!
http://www.globeinvestor.com/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CNW/20060106/C0495
Harper on Child Care and how he will implement it. Voters beware!