While it's not difficult to agree with Murray Dobbin and "sd green"...I still wonder...
Who are we going to replace Paul Martini with?
Stephen "Personality of a Vampire" Harper?
Gilles "I love Canada! Really! Nah...just joking!" Duceppe?
Jim "Green in name, not reality" Harris (Green Party)?
Jack "My caucus fits into a phone booth" Layton?

But seriously...I guess what I'm hoping for is a minority Lieberal government with the NDP propping them up and getting some good concessions from Paul Martin.
A majority Lieberal or Conservative government would not be good! Yikes!
It would make me think that Halloween was still around the corner!

Amazingly, having lived in South Korea for three years I still get to vote.
On the other hand maybe that isn't such a great thing!

Kevan Hudson

I'm still too scared of the federal Conservatives. I have Cindy Silver, a former lawyer for Focus on the Family, running in my riding. The NDP has no chance here. Can anyone blame me for voting Liberal? I feel like I have very little choice.

The Lieberals are out again as a majority government. I'll have no problem voting for an NDP candidate who will help to inject some social conscience into the next Lieberal minority government. I couldn't vote for any theo-con who at heart would inject the attitude of the first fundamentalist, Martin Luther(1483-1546)"Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense and understanding."

I'm praying for another minority gov't.
The only thing worse than the crooked pro American Liberals is the crooked let's become American Tories.
Wouldn't it be nice if all the big shots on both sides lost their seats and the grass roots Canadians came up the middle?

Something I could never figure out is why, here in the Cariboo, which is a union area if there ever was one, people should repeatedly vote Mulroney PC, Manning Reform and CRAP Alliance, and now for Harper's corporate dictatorship?

The conglomeration of the most depressing, anti human values type ideologues, yet who can mesmerize people into believing that they care one iota what happens to them. They might as well elect the Fraser Institute.

At least we got rid of the 2 BCLib useless, superdink seatwarmers and have a couple of hard working MLAs now, but federally, I'm afraid, another CRAP seatwarmer by the name of Dick Harris is going to be re-elected, especially now that , with ideological depopulation in progress, the riding has been wiped out and handed over to Pr. George.

Puppet on the strings Harris got an 8000 majority the last time and probably will again, so he can go back and fall asleep, only to jump to his feet when the NCC's Harper yanks the strings.

Democracy always destroys itself, we have a lot of examples of this in history, because people, for some mysterious reason, subconsciously love dictatorships. Leo Strauss was right on this point, so he worked on giving it to them.

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

Once again it appears that the program du jour Liberals will grasp at whatever 'seems' appealing for the 'moment', counting on the braying canadian sheep to have short attention spans and even shorter memories.

With a Liberal minority election, we end up with a 'coalition' government, led by either the Conservatives or yes even the Bloc Quebecios.

Why?

Well fast forward to January 30, 2006. PMPM gets up to speak and the entire rest of the House starts shouting at him (save for the Liberals elected with him). The first of any sort of legislation is immediately voted down, then then next and the next and so on.

Why?

Jack Leyton, cannot go back now; he has crossed that river and burned the bridge with his supporters no longer willing to clap like trained seals whenever the PMPM speaks. So he will have to vote against the minority Liberals.

Faced with the mounting pressure, or even another non-confidence motion PMPM will have to visit his appointee GG again, this time though he will not have governed at all; therefore the opposition group (with the largest number of seats) will be asked to form a coalition government.

This will be a predictable one if the electorate returns the Conservatives with enough seats to be #2. If it is the Bloc Quebecois that hold the #2 spot (because more NDP MP's are filling out former Conservative seats in the rest of canada) then we get something never seen before.

Could this be the end of the Canadian experiment?

Interesting thought experiment...

Martin is a classical federal Liberal. He can now spend like mad because he has the money to do it. The federal debt to GDP ratio is a fraction of what it was in 1992 and revenuse waaaaaaaay up. So is compliace, income tax and GST filing remittances are at record levels.

This was planned all along. It was bitter medicince but something Canada needed to do. The Liberals knew that some day, they would have to turn the money tap back on and now they are doing it. It is pure politics.

As much as I loathe watching this campaign, I find Harper amusing. Notice all he says is "change change change change." He is saying nothing about policy except that he will "table a motion regarding gay marriage." That in itself should raise alarms with voters.

I might add, the way Martin flummoxed every since premier (including NDP Saint Mike Harcourt)in the transfer payment deal was poltically brilliant. Note the ten years were up just in time for Martin to look like Robin Hood doling out money when he needed to.

Chris H wrote: "Can anyone blame me for voting Liberal? I feel like I have very little choice." Exactly.

I have voted for the NDP in every federal and provincial election for over twenty-five years. This year I intend to vote Liberal for the first time in my life. I am in a same-sex relationship and the last thing I want is to have the same-sex marriage issue revisited by a Conservative government. I do not believe that this election is necessary nor will I ever forgive Jack Layton and the NDP for working with the Conservatives to defeat the government. I think this is the height of public posturing for the purpose of political expediency and I hope the NDP loses every seat it has. Never again will I cast a ballot for an NDP candidate.

Chris H

I, too, find myself in that position. And I resent it!

Why must we endure an electoral process that "forces" me to cast a ballot for my 3rd or 4th choice, simply because casting it for my 1st choice would be akin to flushing it down the toilet? This is WRONG!

Is it any wonder interest in politics and participation in elections is dwindling? WHAT A STUPID SYSTEM!

Bluenose, welcome to the minority, the same sex issue is not a scary one to get into. If you look at the polls that were being taken when this issue was going down, you will find that on a national basis there was a very slim majority of Canadians were not in favor.
Now if you isolate Quebec and look at how the rest of Canada viewed this, you would see that a good size majority were against same sex marriage.
This goes for many other issues in Canada. The vies of Quebec are way different than Anglo Canadians.
This being true, and the Conservative Party having no hope in Quebec, Steven Harper has the advantage in this campaign. He only has to appeal to Anglo Canadians who support conservative ideas. Poor Paul Martin has to suck up to Quebec in order to maintain at least some seats there.
I predict an majority Consevative Govt.
I predict section 15 of the Charter will be revisisted to see exactly how a new race or gender of citizens were created by the liberals in this country.
Nothing personal my friend.

I have voted for the NDP in every federal and provincial election for over twenty-five years

Now,there is really a case where some introspection is in order. Layton is just as bad is Harper, trough guzzling bottome feeder of the worst time. He is enjoying his five minutes of fame right now in foisting a winter general election that hardly anybody wants that will not change a damned thing. What Layton wants is the return to the glory days of Steven Louis when the NDP set the policy that put this country into the economic toilet.

See the common socialist thread? All they can do is look back. They cannnot seem to realise their voter base is dying off of old age. The only party in the country to realise that Canada's electorate is changing is the Federal Liberals. They are politically brilliant. Eventually Quebec will want their slice of the pie and will elect enough Liberals to give a majority government.

Same goes for Quebec. The longer they wait for yet another referrendum the lest likely they will get a "yes vote." It is all demographics, a concept lost on both the left and the right.

It might take ten years but they are in it for the long haul.

Chris H and grub
Two people on this board who gave up their conscience vote because they thought their candidate couldn't win. Why is that? Is it because the newspapers in your area say they won't? I'm curious.
We in B.C. just turned around a vote mainly because the electorate was awakened to the slanted polls and the newspaper bias. I know of several people in the province that finally voted their conscience. And I'm convinced that those votes helped a few candidates win by the slimmest of majorities.
If everyone in this country who gives up a vote for your reasons were to vote for whom they really want I think the political landscape would change drastically in this country. Don't be influenced by self serving groups or businesses. Look at your candidates and ask them pointed questions if possible.
Any candidate who cannot give you a direct answer to a question shouldn't be in office.
You are not "forced" to cast your ballot for anyone. Think about it. You are the people who can make a difference. Vote you conscience.

A consevative majority?
Yeah and the houston texans are 10 point favorites at indianapolis this weekend.
Also question to harper: Will the preferred form of capital punishment, upon reinstatement, be: garrotting, iron maiden, keel-hauling, piano-wirin'(see il-duce), faulty eye-ball poppin' 'lectric chair, stoning, death of a 1000 cuts(see social welfare/environmental protection systems)or death by "unga-bunga"?

No. It'll be more grisly than that. You'll be forced to stare at his lizard-like visage until you die of fright that a country could be so retrograde in its thinking and short-term in its memory to have elected him.

Where did the capital punishment issue come from ? I haven't heard this come up as far as The Conservative Party of Canada is concerned.
Is jesterjogger trying to falsley associate Steven Harper with yet another divisive issue.
I am not in favor of capital punishment, but many people ( outside of Quebec ) are.
Nice try jesterjogger, but you must be aware that outside of Quebec, the conservative message is being welcomed.
Not here, I realize, but here is out of step with the rest of Anglo Canada, way too left for most Canadians.

Gary:

I wish it were that simple, Gary. It's not that I "think" my candidate can't win; it's that I KNOW he/she can't win! How do I know? Because I know my neighbors and I know my community.

I can't wait until hell freezes over, because that's how long it would take for my neighbors to vote for the candidate of my choice.

However, in my community, the Liberal candidate stands a very good chance of defeating the Conservative incumbent.

I know this because, while fiscally conservative, my neighbors are certainly not social conservatives and are every bit as afraid of Harper on those grounds as I am. I know this because, in the last election, my riding wasn't decided until well past midnight.

Unfortunately, MY preferred candidate couldn't even come close to upsetting the Conservative incumbent. But my vote for him/her would surely guarantee Harper another seat.

I can't believe Harper's bringing up the same-sex marriage thing. It didn't serve him in the last election, (and a poll is reporter 60 per cent-plus dont want to revisit it). The Con's problem here isn't whether voters are pro/anti same-sex marriage; it's positioning themselves as intolerant. If any party's voters are going the way of the dinosaur, it's the Con's if they're going to focus on issues like this. The vast majority of people under 30 really couldn't care less if two people of the same gender are given the right to marry.

If I were a Con supporter, I'd be very concerned that Harper is playing to his base so very very early in the campaign.

Ron Erwin wrote: "This goes for many other issues in Canada. The views of Quebec are way different than Anglo Canadians."

It is a mistake to conflate the opinions of a particular demographic with those of an entire country. I have family and friends in Ontario, Prince Edward Island, and Newfoundland and Labrador, and I am gratified to know that their views on "many other issues" (including same-sex marriage) have far more in common with those of my Acadian and Quebecois cousins than they do with the views of my Albertan in-laws. This same kind of exaggeration occurs whenever mainstream media pundits refer to "the West," as if the opinions of those who live in the Lower Mainland of British Columbia are synonymous with those of the inhabitants of Red Deer.

Ron Erwin wrote: "I predict an majority Consevative Govt."

I predict a minority Liberal government; but if there ever were a majority Conservative government, and if it ever were as Republican as I think it might be, and if Quebec ever were to separate from Canada, I would waste no time in applying to emigrate to Quebec. I hope it will never come to that, but if it does, je suis disposé pour le plus mauvais.

Working Man wrote: "Layton is just as bad is Harper."

Much worse, in my opinion, because he ought to know better than anyone that you need a long spoon to sup with the Devil. The hubris of the NDP is staggering.

As long as there is a significant Reform/Alliance contingent among these so-called conservatives you'll always find this issue lurking in the shadows.

Bluenose, thank you for making my point, which is, the views of Qubecers have been out of step with Anglo Canadians since the conscription issue of WW2. Harper should have no fear going after these social issues, most people outside of Quebec agree with him. And you are right, the opinions of those from Red Deer are different than those from Burnaby.
But not that different. Quebec should not be considered at all by conservatives, it's a lost cause.
I will be applying to emigrate to Alberta if they separate, which I hope they will.

And to think that Stockwell Day used to scare the socks off me. Jeez. 2 months of this?

Ron Erwin

"Most" people?!

Like "most" of the people in the Lower Mainland? ROTFL!!!!!

Like most of the people in metro Toronto?! ROTFL!

You ARE a twit.

Ron Erwin wrote: "I will be applying to emigrate to Alberta if they separate, which I hope they will."

Plus le meilleur est tôt!

grub, we will soon see, won't we ?

and Bluenose I am sure that " Plus le meilleur est tot! " is a kind greeting, but I don't speak french. I am from Alberta, sorry.

Stockwell scary? Comical maybe. Not scary. His factual blunders on the floor were incredible. They rivalled Hedy's "burning crosses" moments. His very prominent existence was a guarantee that his gang would never hold power.

bluenose, "because he ought to know better than anyone that you need a long spoon to sup with the Devil. The hubris of the NDP is staggering."

he was supping with the devil. The Gomery scandal should have brought down any government.

Perhaps. But if the venal gang of war criminals running the USA aren't accountable for their actions it sort of tilts the deck a little against the likely degree of moral outrage we might otherwise feel, don't you think?

What really pisses me off is politicians telling us what Canadians want and demand , we had an election only 18 months ago and Canadians choose a Liberal minority and expected it to work. Jack Layton has played his cards well but think he should have backed off on his demands, he should have kept this thing going, keep the conservatives a
lame duck. Imagine a conservative minority that is powerless because the NDP , Liberals and Bloc vote together, I love it, make them irrelevant .

I hate to admit it but working man is right on one thing, Stevie has no platform, it's not good enough to talk in vague language about cleaning up the mess, no platform means a hard right turn, maybe BUSH will even buy a 2nd home here somewhere.

Stockwell day , I love it. Hey why don't we buy some huge signs and start putting them up everywhere , vote for Stockwell, the only man who supports removing the work Progressive from the party name.

Hey Ronnie, your right on all counts, but only if your talking about Alberta, do me a favor get out their and start canvassing please.

I'll play along Skip :)

but being as the hordes of Ghengis Khan treated Baghdad far worse than the Americans perhaps we shouldn't feel any moral outrage against the US.

Stuart

Great! Better yet, signs saying "Stockwell Day: the DINOSAUR DENIER".

These religious kooks crack me up -- so long as there's no chance of them touching the levers of power.

You're joking, right?

Excellent piece and set of observations, Fait Lux.

True enough, even sdgreen agreeing with the left that we need a return to sanity in our lives. :-) Ya think? :-)

But even more particularly, we need to prevent the coming to power of the Stephen Harper Conservatives-, who are the next thing to the Neoconazi Bushies actually coming to power in this country. (They have more or less effective and growing power even now, though not yet "outright".)

The Liberals are bad enough, to be sure, but at least they are moving in the direction of the Washington, PNAC (Project for a New American Century) Empire agenda with a tad more caution and at a tad slower pace than would the Conservatives wholeheartedly and unashamedly embrace it.

A fact that somehow strangely gets lost on such places as the Cariboo working class, Fait, and elsewhere I'm sure. They are so desparate for change in their otherwise increasingly desparate lives, many of them who have gone through layoffs, wood industry and other declines of recent years, that even the extreme radical right wing agenda becomes one that they, in their redneck ignorance, will even clutch at. Even Hitler played to that with his "National Socialism" concept, which was in reality a German "corporatist" agenda, assisted by the industrialist Krupps and Messerschmitts et al.

In the absence of a vital and militant left alternative rooted in the majority working class, many in the working class will turn even to the fascist right in very particular social and economic times, looking for order in the chaos of the lives, even "corporatist order". And the fascists have a way of playing to the prejudices and bigotry that they, like very many if not all people's have.

Therein is at least part of the explanation I think, Fait. That and the sometimes just inexplicable contradictions inherent in many people generally- especially in stressful times.

But to get back to our own fascists, many of them, dressed in "neoconservative" drag: The trick is going to be to punish the Liberals for their quasi, and at times overt criminality, while keeping "the greatest danger" of the even more extreme right at Bay.

Two possibilties or "hopes" I have there; that the NDP, yes even opting for the lesser evil of the Blairites in this case, will pull off the unlikelihood of a small majority government-, though I would prefer that it be the strongest party in another minority government, replacing the Libs. Other than that, any minority government given any combination of forces would suffice for me, that is thereby prevented from carrying out ANY extreme right wing agenda.

My own vote, choose I to even cast it, will go in any direction that would hopefully serve one of these ends above, of stopping the fascists, even the paler, limper Liberal version of it. But especially the Harper Conservatives.

skip, of course, and I assume you were too?

facsism, A governmental system marked by a centralized dictatorship, stringent socioeconomic controls and often belligerent nationaism.
Why is this word so loosely used on the conservative values.
We don't believe in a non democratic dictator running Canada. So lay off using this word against us.
I tried to look neocon up in the dictionary. It isn't a word, is neolib a word ? or neodickhead ?

The Gomery scandal should have brought down any government.

What Mulroney got away with was far, far worse. It was sloppy accounting that got Chretien caught. Have a read of Stevie Cameron's On the Take. I recently reread it and highly recomment it.

And Ron, demographics are what it is all about. The Altlantic provinces and Alberta don't mean much when compared to Ontario. Take a look at the decline of the NDP in Southern Ontario. It is all about the changing voter landscape. The same thing is happening to the NDP in BC. The white, beer belly, grey hair, cigatette somking lunch bucket brigade is rapidly dying off and the NDP cannot realise that.

A neoliberal is essentially the same minus the social conservatism. Neoliberalism is what dominated in the 90's under the principles of new public management. I know the idea of actually doing research is painful for you ron. that's ok, we're here to help.

For Ron:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html

For Frank:

No. See above.

Well, Bluenose, I think you are in a minority.
I have talked to individuals who have voted Liberal all their lives and will be casting a vote for the Layton-NDP for the first time in this election.
Likewise, I have encountered card carrying conservatives who had voted Reform/Alliance/CPC all their lives and are disgusted with Harper and his implicit alliance with the separatists from Quebec - will also be voting NDP for the first time.
Voter migrations are nothing new. But judging from the fact that recent local polling has put the federal NDP ahead in BC, I think that your drift from the party is a mere blip compared to the storm coming down on the Conservatives and Liberals in BC.
So...go ahead and vote for corruption and arrogance of the Liberals...or wait - go vote for the Republican - evengelical social dinosaurs in the Conservative Party...and wait, you could vote Green and add to their 2-3%...or you could get off your high horse and realise that Layton has proven that by working with others instead of fighting with everyone, things actually get done...
This lesson is applicable everywhere - even on the job. We often have to work along side workmates we don't like, but we have a job that needs to get done. This is the job of MP's in Ottawa. Jack has EARNED your vote.

Good posts pkelly,

Everyone must remember is was with the Support of Layton that got the same sex bill passed, it was also Jack who took a Liberal 4-5 billion dollar corporate welfare cheque and gave it back to Canadians.

You always make me laugh Working Man,

Your stereotypes are tired.

"BC. The white, beer belly, grey hair, cigatette somking lunch bucket brigade is rapidly dying off and the NDP cannot realise that."

The BC NDP is full of activist , union leaders, business people etc, Gregor Robinson for example is a 40 yr old millionaire. How can you explain the fact your hero Gordo lost the popular vote, more people voted against him than for him.

And Jack Layton a party with only 19 seats ran the house and made Stevie Harper a lame duck.

P.S when insulting others intelligence it helps your argument to use correct spelling. LOL, You and Ron now that's a stereotype.

Now type each work ten times.

Smoking, cigarette, realize,

skip, that means you're implying that because the gov't of a foreign country does bad things it lets our gov't off the hook?

Abu G means the Liberal Party of Canada can break the law?

Fascism is an extreme form of conservatism, yes characterized, typically, by a centralized governance-, though it needs to be said, of course, that even Hitler was actually "elected" to the German parliament (Bundestag-Lower House), in 1933 I believe it was. Thereafter he declared himself dictator of course, though had he not been appointed Chancellor by the then ailing Chancellor (whose name immediately escapes me) during the time of the Weimar Republic, German fascism would have had little choice but to function in the parliament under the normal conditions of German capitalist democracy then existing, up against a strong Communist opposition. (Then, I believe, the strongest party membership in Germany.)

So, in fact, fascism can under very particular conditions function within a relatively democratic framework, even with typically extreme authoritarian views which act on behalf of, and in defence of Big Corporate capitalism; without such financing from the Krupps etc, and the then ruling class of German financiers and the Junkers (old German nobility) etc., it is unlikely they would have managed to even have come to power, using their fear of communism as a lever.

Fascism is an extreme "conservative" manifestation that typically grows out of, and is rooted within capitalism and its social class relations, in a period of extreme threat to it, historically in response to revolutionary or threatening movements rising up from within the working class.

You really must study your history below the shallow level you typically manifest Swervin' Erwin, and maybe secure a better understanding of the relationship between simple conservatism and fascism. Which on the right, is not entirely unlike the relationship between socialism/communism/anarchy and social democracy-, different degrees of response along an intellectual/class ideas line to a set of social, political and economic phenomena or stimuli coming out of the status quo.

pkelly, I don't believe you when you say that you know card carrying conservatives that are going to vote NDP.
This would be a total waste of a vote as the NDP always only get 18% of the votes and about that many MP's.
A Liberal can vote NDP and a NDP can vote liberal, but a conservative never, never votes NDP
A vote for the NDP is a vote lost by a Liberal, go NDP. We need as many Liberal seats lost as possible.
The Lib's duped Layton, they gave the necessary tax breaks to the corporations eventually anyway.
What a loser this guy is. Imagine him in one of those leather police hats, doesn't he look like a porn star ?

Ron E, you're using a line that was used by whats-his-head from This Hour Has 22 Minutes (when he got his own show). No points for originality.

The NDP may do around 20% nationally but if you remove Quebec our stats look a lot better. And if you just look at BC we do even better.

WM, I have On The Take by SC although I lent it out years ago and never got it back

I think, the funniest thread in this debate is the statement the young people desperately want to become corporate slaves and will vote for it.

True, they've been brainwashed since birth to accept the rule of a special interest class, through incessant advertising, but history shows that sooner, or later people will wake up and demand their human rights.

All empires in history have self destructed, because their leaders didn't understand that all dictatorial systems go one step too far into oblivion, which has happened to nazi Germany, Soviet communism and is happening to market capitalism forced on the world by the US and their pimps.

Perhaps it would be time even for the NDP to understand this simple historical fact and stop
trying to appease the self appointed rulers of the universe, riding high on the perceived power of imaginary money.

But then, the bigger they are, the harder they crash, which is inevitable.

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

Working man...

"but a conservative never, never votes NDP"

Absolute crap. I have seen this happen personally. I have seen 'conservatives' join the NDP, support the NDP, take lawn signs for the NDP, give money to the NDP, publicly defend the NDP...etc

When the NDP railed against corporate welfare bums, conservative-types took notice. Why should large corporations and banks get federal cash when average taxpayers get milked by Liberals every year?
True, some social conservatives find the NDP's social views incompatible with their own views, but they also share some views with the NDP that the conservatives are offside with. The NDP has always been in favour of an adequate social safety net, public education and affordable universities, whereas conservatives see education as a consumer product that can be bought or sold. The NDP's compassion for homeless, sick, elderly, poor have a direct appeal to 'conservatives' that come from the Bible itself. Too bad that the Conservative Party would rip apart the social safety net, alientating 'compassionate conservatives' from the party that pretends to be their defenders.

"porn star"..."loser"... <-- your personal attacks are proof itself that the Conservative Party and activists like you, promote an agenda of HATE. This has no place in Canada - REAL Canadians are far more open minded and compassionate that you give them credit for.

sorry, comments above should be directed at Ron Erwin...apologies to working man..

Minority governments do NOT work because nothing can get done without months of haggling. I believe that our most pressing financial legislation is the extending of age eligibility for Old Age Security. It would be hard enough to legislate with a majority but it would NEVER get done with a minority. They can't even decide on making it mandatory to balance the federal budget.
I agree that all of us are overtaxed but if we had people in government that were courageous enough to make the hard necessary decisions then I wouldn't mind the taxes, or their lavish expense accounts.

Minority governments do work...if the parties understand that negotiation and comprimise is the only way to move ahead.
From the last election, the Liberals should have negotiated a formal agreement with the NDP/BQ (whatever) that specifically sets out legislative priorities, agenda's etc...
The Liberals did not do this, they instead attempted to govern as if they were still in a majority.
If there is a minority situation in the next parliament, then the largest party MUST negotiate - otherwise, we'll be back here again, and soon.

You know, its nice when people can learn their lessons the first time but I've got no problem with going back to the polls a few times for the policitians to learn that they were elected to work together for the average joe of this country not just their buddies.
In my mind this present and future minority gov'ts work in few ways....so that's what I'm hoping for this time around.

Excellent discussion, vitriolic and filled with plenty of rhetoric.

I am hopeful that the NDP does pull in many more seats, only to ensure that the Liberals cannot form a majority, leaving the conservatives in 3rd place behind the BQ, making the BQ the 'official opposition' for a few days, then the leaders of a coalition, with a simple agenda : END CANADA.

It will either be that or a strange combination of Liberals, Conservatives and NDP'ers?

Best vote independant this time round, at least your riding will be guaranteed to be filled with the 'lolly' sloshing around in such a situation.

Frank' I have never seen This Hour Has 22 Minutes, it's on CBC, and I don't watch much on this Liberal propaganda channel.
And I agree, if you remove Quebec, everyones stat's look better.

pkelly, you are obviously ignoring the hateful attacks on Steven Harper, how convenient and hypocritical of you.

can you imagine a minority Conservative Govt. with a deal between the Bloc and Conservatives ?
This would work great.

Until we get some kind of pro-rep, voters should vote strategically, sad as this is. The best case scenario is a Liberal minority with the NDP holding the clear balance of power.

So BC should vote NDP, unless you are in a strong Liberal riding with weak NDP candidate.

The NDP could then force pro-rep. The Bloq would be cut in half, and the NDP could get a foot in the door in Quebec. And even Alberta's over-represented conservative voice would be cut to 60% of the Alberta seats. That alone could save Canada. A few Greens would be nice as well.

We all know who they are but just in case.

a Troll is a person who posts messages that create controversy or an angry response without adding content to the discussion, often intentionally. Though technically different from flaming, which is an unmistakable direct personal attack, trolls often resort to innuendo or misdirection in the pursuit of their objective, which is to create controversy for its own sake, discredit those with whom they disagree, or sabotage discussion by creating an intimidating atmosphere.

The only way to handle Trolls. I won't say any names.

When you suspect that somebody is a troll, you might try responding with a polite, mild message to see if it's just somebody in a bad mood. Internet users sometimes let their passions get away from them when seated safely behind their keyboard. If you ignore their bluster and respond in a pleasant manner, they usually calm down.

However, if the person persists in being beastly, and seems to enjoy being unpleasant, the only effective position is summed up as follows:

The only way to deal with trolls is to limit your reaction to reminding others not to respond to trolls.

When you try to reason with a troll, he wins. When you insult a troll, he wins. When you scream at a troll, he wins. The only thing that trolls can't handle is being ignored.

Ron Erwin..

"pkelly, you are obviously ignoring the hateful attacks on Steven Harper, how convenient and hypocritical of you."

Have you not been paying attention to the past term of office? The smearing has been between Liberals and Conservatives. Harper accused Martin of being linked to the mob, and Martin levelling equivalent shots at Harper. Layton has attempted to keep the debate on the issues themselves - Canadian voters are smart enough to determine if the personal attacks have any merit or not...

Harper is a social conservative - and calling him that does not constitute an insult or hatefull attack...its merely indentifying him for what he is. His misfortune is that the overwhelming majority of Canadians is that they are socially moderate - and the NDP (Liberals too) putting a spotlight on this apparent discrepancy of social issue priorities, is entirely legitimate.

"can you imagine a minority Conservative Govt. with a deal between the Bloc and Conservatives ?
This would work great."

MP's will work with whatever voters give them...and if that means a conservative-BQ coalition, then so be it..or liberal-ndp for that matter. This is not for you or I to pre-judge.

Ron E, the reason I mentioned it is because your joke was almost exactly the same as his. It was a few years ago, right after he won the NDP leadership. They even superimposed a leather outfitted nude body under his head. It got a big laugh.

OR, there is a possible combination of two or more parties that can force through a progressive agenda, hopefully. :-) But generally in fact, ordinary folks get a better result from minority governments in fact. They have to suckhole to popular/people interests, in the perpetual hope than it will secure them a majority government next time-, so that they can go back to serving, unimpeded, the corporate interest.

Short of a "truly" proportional representation system, where there is even a multitude of political interests and viewpoints, which is my personal favoured option, majority government near invariably means, certainly historically, corporate interest governance. Even an NDP majority, historically, and likely more so under its current Blairite perversion, means "business friendly", read "corporate" kissy kissy government.

Spot on Stuart! But it is hard though isn't it.

Dear Ron,

Found myself with a couple spare minutes and thought I would present you with a little research. Below is an extract from a Tom Walkom column that ran in The Star this month.

It seems regular right of center Canadians are indeed voting NDP.

Another lifelong Tory (she started canvassing for the party when she was 10), Kronis actively supported the merger.

She stayed with the new party as a Toronto riding association president after Harper was elected leader — only to publicly break with the Conservatives over same-sex marriage rights during the 2004 election campaign.

Now, she's a card-carrying federal New Democrat actively working to build her new party. She says she cannot envision going back.

"When the next election is called and Harper loses and the party looks for a new leader, I don't think it will move more to the centre," she says.

And the merger?

"I supported the merger then and I support it now. I supported it then for me. Now, I support it for them, the fiscally conservative and socially conservative. Uniting makes them stronger.

"But I'm not one of those people."

Additional articles by Thomas Walkom

And if you care to read the column in its entirety the link is provided below.

Cheers

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1131750618772&call_pageid=970599109774&col=Columnist969907626796

Imagine that, PeteL....

EVIDENCE that yes indeed, conservatives can AND do support the NDP...

though had he not been appointed Chancellor by the then ailing Chancellor (whose name immediately escapes me)

Get your facts straight. Hitler was appointed Chancellor by 86 year old war hero Paul von Hindenburg, who was Germany's de facto dictator from 1916-1918. Hidenburg was the president of Germany, not chancellor. Upon his death, Hitler illegally amalgamated both offices.

pkelly, it is true, my father grew up in Torie Blue Ontario, voted Conservative until 70's and then figured it out. Not only did he switch to the NDP, but he worked in all subsequent elections.

So theres more evidence.

At any rate, we all get carried away here bashing the trolls like rotten ronny and jerking man, but really other than the zealots we ought to try and treat fellow citizens with some courtesy. Just because we have some mis-guided people in this old world it doesn't mean they are all right wing nuts.

Jack's

Now Jack's, is "...the extending of age eligibility for Old Age Security...." Conservative doctrine or part of their platform? If it is, can we please have that publicized?

If the extending of age eligibility for Old Age Security is what Harper and his gang are all about, then there's one more reason for me not to vote for them. I WANNA RETIRE BEFORE I DIE!

Jeez you conservatives really do hate working people, don't you?!

No, you see so-called Working Man, it is you that is full of shitt. Get familiar with real not fanciful history. (Check out the web site at bottom here, from which the following was taken. There are many others out there with the real history.)

Why are you such a total wingnut geek?

I bet you wish you really knew what you are talking about. You are out of your depth here, and it shows, again, again and again.

Weimar Republic
With the loss of the war, the German monarchy came to an end and a republic was proclaimed. A constitution was written providing for a President with broad political and military power and a parliamentary democracy. A national election was held to elect 423 deputies to the National Assembly. The centrist parties swept to victory. The result was what is known as the Weimar Republic.

Hitler's Rise to Power
Once released from prison, Hitler decided to seize power constitutionally rather than by force of arms. Using demagogic oratory, Hitler spoke to scores of mass audiences, calling for the German people to resist the yoke of Jews and Communists, and to create a new empire which would rule the world for 1,000 years.

Hitler's Nazi party captured 18% of the popular vote in the 1930 elections. In 1932, Hitler ran for President and won 30% of the vote, forcing the eventual victor, Paul von Hindenburg, into a runoff election. A political deal was made to make Hitler chancellor in exchange for his political support. He was appointed to that office in January 1933.

Upon the death of Hindenburg in August 1934, Hitler was the consensus successor. With an improving economy, Hitler claimed credit and consolidated his position as a dictator, having succeeded in eliminating challenges from other political parties and government institutions. The German industrial machine was built up in preparation for war. By 1937, he was comfortable enough to put his master plan, as outlined in Mein Kampf, into effect. Calling his top military aides together at the "FÃ…hrer Conference" in November 1937, he outlined his plans for world domination. Those who objected to the plan were dismissed.

http://www.remember.org/guide/Facts.root.hitler.html

Whatever happened to true conservatism - the laissez faire kind that left government business out of taxpayers' pockets and bedrooms? Canadian politics has a hint of authoritarian running through both its left and right. The further left you go, the more likely it is that the party sees government as an economic social engineer. Strangely enough, the further right you go, similar social engineering goes on in the form of legislated morality. It's partly this lack of choice and consistency that makes it tough for so many to vote (along with all the systemic issues or problems such as strategic voting)
Some would argue the greens are close to the traditional conservatives in the Teddy Roosevelt sense and this is probably not too far off.
What seems to take the day here and now in Canada is the politics of opportunism - each party plays to their niche in order to motivate their voters and get them out to the polls but in that process, they have spread themselves out all over the political map and created a lot of inconsistencies in their respective policies. This goes a long way in explaining the Liberal's shift all over the map and their ability to get re-elected year in and year out. Being all things to all people - or just less distasteful than one's opponent - is enough to get you in.

Bottom line? The Progressive Conservatives should have merged with the NDP - both are/were socially liberal (laissez faire) and their respective economic policies could have straddled left and right while at the same time providing a wide enough base to legitimately dislodge the Liberals. Provincial NDP governments in Manitoba and Saskatchewan show that the NDP, under the right circumstances, show fiscal restraint read: can be economically moderate.

How about talking about the new proposed bill on bankruptcy and the Stelco problems?
And how the aids to Paul Martin are all writing the new bankruptcy law?
Talk about ignorance is bliss...

In theory this is not an outlandish proposition. Its probably the reason David Orchard had pretty decent support within the old Tory party.

I had dinner with an old Tory Senator about a month ago and we ended up in a pretty good politcal debate. My line of reasoning was similar to Japander's above. The old dog had a bit of a twinkle in his eye, fondly recalling a more moderate political past. But in the end he said he was an "institutional man" and thus supported Harper. Poor old bastard.

Frank wrote:

I thought the inference was clear: our morally and ethically pure Reform-a-Tories would have had us enmeshed in the Iraq morass given half a chance. Take your (grim) pick: sponsorship scandal or collective responsibility for aiding and abetting war crimes.

It's a sad state of affairs. If the federal Liberals weren't thieving scoundrels, I would vote for them. I cannot understand how ANYONE could reward their Liberal MP candidate with a vote after their party stole millions of tax dollars.

Do the right thing and place your vote elsewhere.

Good thought Jeeves

This time round the right thing may involve independant candidates.

I would vote for the Block if they run a candidate in my area. I wish they would run all across Canada so that we could all have a say in the tail that wags the dog.

What would the Bloc do if they got more elected MP's from outside Quebec than in it? Would they threaten to break their party in two?

Thereafter he declared himself dictator of course, though had he not been appointed Chancellor by the then ailing Chancellor (whose name immediately escapes me) during the time of the Weimar Republic

Did you not write this?

He was appointed to that office (chancellor) in January 1933.

You claimed that Hitler was not appointed to the office of Chancellor. I corrected you.

Why are you such a total wingnut geek?

I assume you resort to name calling to anyone you do not agree with.

Get your facts straight. Hitler was appointed Chancellor by 86 year old war hero Paul von Hindenburg, who was Germany's de facto dictator from 1916-1918. Hidenburg was the president of Germany, not chancellor. Upon his death, Hitler illegally amalgamated both offices.

Now, cayote, tell me how in any way what I posted correcting you was in conflict with the information you got off the web regarding Hitler's ascension to power.

Get a hold of you anger. It is the main reason for your lonliness.

If you can find any discrpency, I will never post here again.

you should excuse coyote for his inaccuracies. he spends most of his days drinking dandelion wine with frank, reminiscing about the way things 'could have been'.

Ron Erwin's comment to Bluenose:

"I predict section 15 of the Charter will be revisisted to see exactly how a new race or gender of citizens were created by the liberals in this country.
Nothing personal my friend."

He's also said:

Ron Erwin:

"They insisted that the potential teacher get spend the last year of their training at SFU or UBC in order for them to hang out with queers and drug addicts ."

Ron Erwin is a bigot, pure and simple. "Nothing personal my friend"? Don't forget that the Ron Erwins are the "base" of the Conservative party and Harper has to keep them happy. If you are a homesexual, they don't just want to deny you marriage, but hate your very existence.

Time to vote strategically in my opinion. I voted NDP in the last federal election and was dumbstruck to see the Liberal win in my riding. Somehow, I don't think the NDP has any chance of winning in North Vancouver. I have to vote Liberal so the Ron Erwin's of the world can't take us back into the Dark Ages.

PeteL, sorry but I cannot give any credibility to The Toronto Star, I rank them right up there with the CBC as a mouthpiece for The Liberal Party of Canada

And Chris H, I am not a bigot and the statements you quote do not indicate that I am.
They do indicate that I am not very liberal.

Go ahead and vote LIberal, it's a free country and by your tone I wouldn't expect anything else.

The central point being that Hitler was elected to the German parliament. As he was, though I had the date wrong, which I acknowledge, for it was earlier than 1933. In the later election in which he secured 30% of the popular vote, as a result of a political deal made between Hindenberg and himself, not unlike what you have just witnessed in modern capitalist Germany between the Conservatives and Social Democrats, Hitler was handed the leadership of Germany. Upon Hindenberg's later death, Hitler secured, with the cooperation of other Bundestag elements, dictatorial powers for himself.

The critical point again being, that Hitler came to the Bundestag and eventual full dictatorial power within German Capitalism via entirely "Constitutional" and "legal" means. It was not a coup or putsch, save perhaps in a very round about way.

So, we can look forward to NOT seeing you post here again, so-called Working man , with your anti-working class and pro-ruling class, sychophantic views? Which much ring like the thin edge of the wedge fascism of old.

coyote says:

Correct, however the parallels are ones of constitutional practice and not of political ideology. I trust, Coyote, you weren't about to lump Merkel in with Hitler. The Conservatives of Germany would make American Democrats look like raving right-wingers. Fundamentally, I think we could place Merkel just left of Paul Martin.

Who gives a rats ass about Hitler. The idiot's dead. While in power he supressed a lot of things but as soon as he was losing the war he took the cowards' way out and offed himself.

Now if you're comparing here how he came to power with lies and deceipt, okay. But so far I don't see any of that. Move on.

I was indeed largely comparing parallels of constitutional practice. You are correct-, in my view.

However, with regard to your above, we shall have to see what transpires with Merkel. Politicians and ideologies often "pragmatically" present themselves as one thing, only to become quite another in actual power. (Old Stalinist Russia and Germany being the prime definitions thereof.)

(Germany is currently going through the same neo-conservative ideological, economic and political pressures, also France, as this country and the United States. Capitalism is in a state of reactionary flux and retrogressive development everywhere, virtually.)

Certainly Merkel favours closer relations with the United States, the main imperialist power, and "market driven and business friendly" policies, and an expressed ambition to change long held German labour law practice, heretofore amongst the most progressive in capitalism anywhere, that at least sounds very much like like our own BC Liberals and its neo-conservative alliance. (Towards which the Paul Martin Liberals show tentative signs of wanting to move with corporate tax cuts, privatization of health care etc as well.)

So, we shall have to see. It is really to early to tell what Merkel's role in all this will be-, though she is on the "right" political side of things, within the party of Big Corporate Capitalism in Germany.

Even old slogans of German nationalism formulated under the Nazis are up for current discussion as to their appropriateness in contemporary German life, where there is a move to re-encourage/ assert an old Germanic "nationalist" pride and "a certain" foreign military presence.

Which will have a certain militaristic "echo" quality about it for some of us here, like maybe even Fait. :-)

pkelly wrote: "Or wait - go vote for the Republican - evengelical social dinosaurs in the Conservative Party."

How solidaristic of you. The sentiments of committed leftists are often edifying; and if not often edifying, always committed.

"Jack has EARNED your vote."

Sure he has. Thus saith the Lord.

The sight of Jack Layton making common cause with Stephen Harper is something I would expect to see in a crackhouse, not a press conference. Layton will always have his True Believers to vote for him just as Harper will always have his.

Chris H wrote: "I have to vote Liberal so the Ron Erwin's of the world can't take us back into the Dark Ages."

I agree. I have to vote my conscience. I have to vote for the most sane, or at best the least insane, candidate likely to counter the Conservatives and keep them out of power.

An excerpt from an interview between Michael Moorcock and Andrea Dworkin:

Michael Moorcock: What do you think about the current shift to the right in US politics?

Andrea Dworkin: Here, in blaming and shaming the oppressed, the powerless, the left colludes with the right. There's no reason to look to the left for justice, so people look to the right for order. It's pretty simple.

The PC's are a party that take from the middle, give to the rich and damn the poor.

The Liberals are a party that take from the middle, give to the rich and throw tidbits to the poor.

The NDP will take from the rich and give to the poor. The middle get the tidbits.

Perhaps a tad premature and naive. We shall have to see here too, what the NDP will actually do in "formal" power. Though it is cute, with a certain ring to it.

crh, your right but have made a critical mistake,

It's not the PC's anymore, they needed to remove the progressive part from the name, otherwise how could you merge with folks like Randy White, Stockwell etc. Now their the SC's

Scary conservatives. look at their supporters aka Ron Erwin etc.

Coyote:

While this may not be the appropriate forum, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find more pacifist-minded youth than in Germany. Don't let the subjective biases and the desire to create headlines, at any cost, of the CNN's and FOX's of this continent cloud your view of what is actually happening. A few disaffected skinheads do not a political movement make.

Let's recall that the German people handed Schroeder and his Social Democrats another term in office when there was even the slightest hint of minor pro-American sympathies by the CDU conservatives at the time of US sabre-rattling re Iraq.

grub,

I agree the desire of certainly German youth for peace is strong. Likely even extending further than that amongst the populace at large. (I'm a regular watcher of Deutsche TV, it gives me a chance to brush up on my rusty high school German. Indeed, I was once told by a French teacher, when I was taking an adult education upgrade, that I spoke French with a flawless German accent.:-)

As for the SPD and CDU alliance under Fraulein Merkel, we shall have to see what transpires there to be certain. Hopefully, you are correct, as well you may be.

I spent some time in the old East Germany, in my Communist days, and have a great respect for the progressive instincts of the German people, despite the Hitler and DDR experiences, or maybe even because of it, their great intellectual curiosity and creativity, and the depth of German culture. (And the beauty, intelligence and vivaciousness of German women is nothing to be overlooked or underestimated either. :-)

About that Martin majority ... if there was any Justice in British Columbia, the trials arising from the R.C.M.P. raids on the B.C. Legislature would have taken place by now. Before having to make an informed choice in even one election, British Columbians should have known what the police found in the offices of Paul Martin's senior campaign workers -- David Basi and Robert Virk.

But no. By a miracle of jurisprudence, those high-profile charges remain hidden. A protective media silence surrounds them.

Only magicians could have kept the facts from us -- with nobody howling in protest -- while the ballots for3 elections slid by us. "X" we wrote politely for Paul. "X" we wrote again, for Gordon. And soon "X" for Paul again. Basi and Virk worked for them both.

Double-cross. This is no way to treat the Canadian voters. It's no way to treat Basi and Virk. Even Saddam Hussein (arrested at the same time: December 2003) was brought to trial before now.

Ron Erwin:

That you don't want your grandchildren or children to be taught by a teacher simply because he or she might have hung out with a "queer" makes you a bigot.

The Basi and Virk case seems to have completely disappeared into the status quo void indeed, hasn't it? Only a great howl, which I do not see come, from the Canadian people , would force it onto the table.

The System relies on, and generally gets public apathy to work in their favour. It is the great underlying problem with current democracy, for all its other limitations of conspiracy, monopoly and manipulation.

As the recent polling about honesty and "system" politicians living up to their promises indicate, we expect to be lied to and manipulated, and the oblige us-, largely because we put up with it, and don't force the issue.

It's the depressing mode currect society and the times are locked into.

Hmmm. Think I'll go pop some popcorn. And nothing so commonly plebian as dandy lion wine, such as excites a particular wingnut, but maybe a wee dram of something more civilized, such as befits my more sophisticated palate. :-)

OK folks, time once more to review the shallowness that is little Ronnie Erwin.

On religious understanding little Ronnie writes of Muslims:

"these people are animals who are not going to follow the normal ways of waging war. They want us dead."

On evolution little Ronnie writes:

"I mean why aren't there fish growing feet and walking out of the ocean as we speak?"

On the deaths of children in custody, and of aboriginals in particular little Ronnie writes:

"Sherry Charlie, A group of Indians sends an Indian child to be cared for by another Indian. The other Indian murders the Indian child. And this is our fault ? Give me a break."

On public health care litle Ronnie writes:

"yes I have a medical card in my pocket. I am forced to deal with a single supplier. Somewhat like in North Korea and Cuba. Unlike Sweden, Norway, France, Germany, Spain, USA, Austarlia, New Zealand, Russia, Poland,
I am sure you get my drift comrad."

On social responsiblity little Ronnie writes:

"What if a kid shows up in the middle of winter in a summer jacket freezing to death. Is it the schools responsibility to cloth them ? What is a kid shows up at school smelling to high heaven. Is it the schools job to clean him ?"

On women little Ronnie writes:

"What is it about women that they tend to be able to change their mind without concequences ?"

On Christianity and education little Ronnie writes:

"They insisted that the potential teacher get spend the last year of their training at SFU or UBC in order for them to hang out with queers and drug addicts ."

And in this thread little Ronnie dispays the depth of his political analysis:

"What a loser this guy is. Imagine him in one of those leather police hats, doesn't he look like a porn star ?"

Folks, little Ronnie is a fool. Chuckle at his idiocy, but weep quietly when you realize that he gets to vote in our system. You are permitted loud sobbing when it becomes clear that there are too many little Ronnies in the world. Witness little Ronnie's view:

"can you imagine a minority Conservative Govt. with a deal between the Bloc and conservatives ? This would work great."

He clearly is brain-damaged if he cannot remember the damage done to Canada by the lyin' Brian coalition.

Treat Ron Erwin as you would a dog. That is, brainless and eager to obey simple commands.

While ranting against Little Ronnie, please note that Little Ronnie succeeded in taking charge of this discussion ... and he has used up most of the available space ... again. Could we please just ignore him?

I would have to disagree that people are tired of a smaller government. We have a right leaning house of commons - as the Conservatives vastly outnumber the NDP.

Unfortunately, the Tories and Liberals can't work together as they are political foes. So, they were forced to work with the NDP.

It has nothing to do with Canada's appetite for big government. In fact, the focus on this campaign is the economy and tax cuts. Hardly a sign of big government.

Not me. And Buzz Hargrove obviously feels the same. (Witness his support for both Federal Libs and NDP today.)

The reality of current "limited" political democracy in this country, certainly in the US, and increasingly in the rest of the capitalist world is the fact that all parties generally have been moving to the right for a considerable while now. The only real choices that exist are right and righter.

Which makes the case for Chris, I think, however regrettable it is, that these Devil and Deep Blue Sea choices are the only ones he and the rest of us have: Unless you are prepared to vote neoconservative, though we're now getting the electoral saccharine from this wingy ding crew, many who post here, whose real corporatist sentiments there should be no doubts about, what but to choose those candidates who have the greater likelihood of success from either Liberal or NDP. They're not really in the least substantively different, face the facts.

My hope is for a minority government of "the lesser right" which again essentially succeeds in isolating the most extreme right.

I hate it, indeed of all our choices here. But until there is a more militant "Left" political option, in a social and political environment where backing that up on the streets, there is a more militant labour movement and activist movements of the poor, women, young people and community interests organized and in motion, advancing societal and democratic change demands and agendas, what you have is all you get.

I don't know Chris, vote whatever the hell seems to make sense to you on voting day. Or don't vote at all. I'd even understand that. This has to come to a crisis head sooner or later anyway.

"I don't know Chris, vote whatever the hell seems to make sense to you on voting day. Or don't vote at all. I'd even understand that. This has to come to a crisis head sooner or later anyway."

Thanks. I'll vote my conscience and vote Liberal in order to stop the religious right's agenda. You just have to look at who is lobbying the Conservative politicians to see who they will owe if they ever form government.

coyote

While I share many of your sentiments, none of this activism or militancy amounts to a hill of beans within our current electoral process. So most of us are stuck engaging in so-called "strategic voting". How sad is that?!

No one, least of all me, is questioning the value of a formal electoral system. It is an achievement of countless many peoples' movements within capitalism that has resulted in what we have.

Though I would prefer to see it evolve in the direction of a proportional representation electoral system, being more inclusive of a broader spectrum of viewpoints, where in fact the benefits of minority government are the more likely typical outcome. And THAT is going to take movements on the street to overcome the resistance of the status quo and force it through.

Additionally, I'd like to see democracy extended into the economic sphere, where the working class, consumer and community interests are initially included in governance on the Boards of Directors and management committees, hopefully over time becoming the dominant power on Boards of Directors, hiring and firing such "management professionals" as they may need.

It's there, in the extension of democracy to the economy that lies the best likelihood of real solutions to the problems of poverty, imbalances of power, and income and opportunity inequities.

Obviously we're talking the major private and public corporate enterprizes in the economy here, with small business below a certain level coming in for special treatment, but being opened to "democratization" as, when and if they grow qualitatively.

With regards the current "strategic voting" imperative in the electoral system, and your question, "How sad is that?" My answer is, just about the pits.

It's what says the limits of current potentials within the status quo FPTP electoral system have been reached. Which ain't likely to change a whole bunch until, or will at least be greatly facilitated by... those movements of folks on the streets, upon which so much disdain is heaped by status quo labour officialdom and official Social Democrats within the NDP. (They having their own motives.)

It's an old formula, but it works, if it's serious change you want, and has since the birth of capitalism in 17th Century England.

Coyote

I concur. So I take back my earlier comment about activism amounting to a hill of beans. Clearly, activism in the realm of electoral reform can bear fruit.

Coyote again:

Interestingly, such a system exists in the world's 3rd largest economy. But, sadly, very few people in Canada (or the USA) are aware of the fact that corporations can, indeed, operate when workers and shareholders SHARE power (50-50) on corporate boards and actually cooperate to ensure the long term survival of both profits, jobs and environment. In Germany, it took a huge coalminers strike in the early 50's to convince government to enact legislation to put such a model of corporate governance into place.

Grub,

I think I misread you, just a tad.

I agree with your assessment of the present, including the present electoral system limitations.

Other than that, all I'm really saying is, until there are those movements of people on the streets, and I'm not making light of the problems and difficulties there, but until there is, it likely doesn't get any better than this. Indeed, it is more likely to continue to deteriorate... for ordinary folks.

That said as well, there IS a crisis point out there-, somewhere. :-)

Vote Ndp!!!!!!

Strategic voting? Is that what you think Canadians have been doing? Well, I have a little theory about what's going on inside the minds of Canadian voters lately. It may be unscientific, but it's mine own.

Y'see, you got yer NDP. Honest enough, well intentioned, but no experience of government, and little enough of opposition. This gives them absolutely no clue about what or how to do things, and then they have powerful enemies among effective and money rich corporate types.
So, basically good hearted idiots with no chance of success. The only cure would be experience enough to let them develop the networks necessary to accomplish something.

Then there's the Conservatives. Brrrrr! Just looking at these guys you just know all they really want is to slip one cold hand into your pants and wrap their clammy fingers around your reproductive equipment while with the other hand they enact many, many laws to tell you what you must not do with it. Abortion, homosexuality, medical research. Most everything they're about is sexual. Given that they're against all that, I hesitate to call them sex maniacs, but they're definately SOME kind of maniacs. Makes me want to lock up my daughters.

Then there's the Liberals. Pretty well established and accepted thieves. They took a perfectly good system of standard political corruption, where the party in power got to decide what supporters of theirs would get padded contracts to carry out the work of the taxpayers, (the system known as "Jobs for the Boys" or "Business as Usual") and scrapped it in favour of robbery with dumptrucks. Our money in great lumps goes completely out of circulation, no work done, no jobs for the boys or anybody else. Just gone.

So that's yer choice. The Idiots, The Maniacs, or The Thieves.

Personally, I'm in favour of giving the idiots a chance for a few years. All they really lack they would get in a few years of trying. It would be expensive, but not as expensive as the dumptrucks have been. It would often be painful to watch, like watching little kids play hockey. It's awful, but they do get better if they keep on trying.

Bailey,

Okay, from my quarter, you get "best article" this thread. And most relevant point. :-) (The wingnuts dont't even get to paricipate. Notice how they disappear when the real "left" heavy weights show up. We snooze a bit and they're back, the phuckers.)

Good to read ya again, brother.

Aw, shucks. Thanks.

The thing I like best about my theory is that it explains the inexplicable re-election of Liberal parties while in disgrace, under suspicion of criminal activity, or actual indictment.

I was having trouble accounting for that, but this theory seems to cover it pretty well.

Bailey,

I was trying to summarize my thoughts on the three parties and you managed to do it for me.

Thanks