It might be childish but if I been told so many times by the Libs that I couldn't run a "lemonade stand" I wouldn't be jumping in too quick to help them (Libs) out. The damage they(Libs) did to themselves in public opinion was superb, a whole team of spin doctors couldn't have done better.

Demomaniac I like the idea of a plebicite couldn't it still be done?

What about the Feds' don't they have any thing to say about a province breaking an agreement they've us all signed to?

What is this "turn the other cheek," nonsense?
Rafe, your always braying that politics is a "Blood" sport. Professional negotiators? I think not. It should be as it is, the point persons throw the punches, and suffer the consequences of their actions. So far Gordo and D'Yawn are bleeding the most. This match is not over by a long shot. Me, I'm cheering for the underdog.
The fines must be held in escrow pending appeals, who knows whose pockets this thievery will end up in. To many charity donations end up at the "Privy Counsel." And you know who holds the purse strings there.

Contempt of out justice system! You bet!

You dropped the ball on this one, Rafe. Your ideas don't hold up. It's been while since you've been in a classroom.

It's not that teachers work harder than the rest of the world, it's that kids need a connection made between themselves and the teacher, before they learn. And there's too many of them, not enough time. University kids can make the necessary leap, following a good professors enthusiasm but teenagers are not there, yet.

Even Quest University is promising classes of no more than 25 students, each. Connections are the magic ingredient!

Rafe, please get into the schools. We'd all love to have you visit. Stir it up and see if your opinion changes.

It's 6:00 am and I'm on my bike, headed out the door for school in 15 minutes. I can't wait to get there!

Much as the politically naive may not like it, Rafe's essential point is right here. When your enemy is making a fool of himself in public you don't draw attention away from him.

The right time to advise the government not to do something arrogant and stupid was before they passed bill 12, which in fact is what the opposition did. Gord didn't listen, so stand aside and let him reap the results.

Ed Seedhouse

Let's not forget the lesson which the general public was given during this period of civil disobedience, either. We have a continuing role to play as watch-dogs of government.

It's up to us, now, to watch how Gordon Campbell's "unqualified acceptance" of Ready's recommendations actually plays out.

It's up to us to let Gordo know when government's role begins to slip again. As IMO it surely will.

Rafe makes a solid argument

There is no reason now, why Carol James cannot become very vocal on the issues - and I feel, and hope, that she will do so.

One thing she might talk about is that fine of $500,000 - in my opinion, theft by the court.

Can she do that if it is under appeal? I feel she should just do it. We seem at times so in awe of the law when it deserves contempt.

Carole James is weak, and a poor leader. She's been ineffective.

Don't feed me a line about her increasing the NDP seat count: that had little to do with James, and a great deal to do with Gordon Campbell.

As for that fine? The HEU was fined; why should the teachers not be?

"When your enemy is making a fool of himself in public you don't draw attention away from him."

No one can argue with that.

I too think James did the right thing by staying out. Its not her fight.

But the NDP should keep finding a forum to bash Bill 12. Draconian laws need to be challenged constantly and its the reason we need an opposition.

77%, wow , what a razor thin vote that was.

Remember, Carol James fought to disentangle the NDP from organized labour, a good idea in my view.

Judging from some of the neo-con posts on the Tyee, many people see unions and New Democrats as one and the same. Had Carol James entered the fray, she would have reinforced that view.

She made the right move.

As if turning the other cheek was what it is all about, of course. Like that really changes dicky-doo.

Rafe at his most trite again.

Not that the silence of the ndp wasn't indeed ominous of what may well have been going on in the background, in league with those of that political allegiance who generally call the shots in the Fed.

The real story, I think, is that teachers were up against a multi-facted, multi-directional conspiracy, some of it likely coming out of forces they were not expecting or prepared for.

If teachers, as for much of the organized working class, can be faulted for anything, it was a certain level of naivete and unpreparedness for these forces arrayed against them, and how far they were prepared to go.

Matters to be worked on for next time around. And there will be a next time.

It is time for a revolution within the trade union movement itself. Of which the NDP needs its own version.

contary to some critics, I think Carole James did the right thing by keeping out of the fray. By NOT making herself a target for the Liberals (thus: politicising the strike even more than it already was) she took the high road.
Napolean Bonaparte commented once, "never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake"...this is the perfect example of this. The BC Liberals, Campbell, DeJong, Bond ALL mishandled this fiasco and will be the ones identified as attacking yet another union that is 70% female.
I await the next round of opinion polls. The earlier trend was that the liberals were enjoying some sort of honeymoon with voters, but I suspect that will now be over.

Carole James lacked , oh lets see. What's the word I'm looking for . Courage........... Courage to make a stand , courage to fight , courage is not learned, you have it or you don't. I as many of my posts show are a hard core lefty and are the opposite of say a Ron Irwin but sorry she was weak on this one. She is trying to be moderate which by the way is wrong headed, separating herself from the union movement is not only insulting but the NDP's death wish. After 4 yrs of the Fiberals they received 46% of the vote, the NDP received 42%(only losing by a few thousand votes) and the Greens received 8%. So therefore 50% of the population did not vote Liberal, watch the green vote drop
off next election. The union movement worked damm hard for Carole James just as the MSM
and big business put up big bucks for Gordo. Does she think abandoning her supporters to
pull a few more votes is going to help. Not likely, the 46% that voted for Gordo know his policies and love him, aka hardliners. I was at the CUPE rally on Friday at the PNE, the people are ready to fight but the leaders don't have the stomach. Sell out Jinny, Jim Sinclair making backroom deals etc.

Where was Carole at the Rally, no where to be seen, she should have stood up and said the law is void and this government has no moral authority and makes laws to suit their very narrow views. Instead you have her saying , yes I don' t think anyone should break the law. This moderate approach is pathetic,
the right is not moderate, they pass laws and use the power of the courts to jam threw repressive laws.
They should have had a general strike, F**ck it, shut down the province until Bill 12 is repealed and the fines
reversed etc, instead what did we get.

2 week of calling the teachers criminals, half million dollar fine, 2 weeks lost pay and no strike pay.
Bill 12 still on the books, and the labour minister bragging on how he will pay for any increase in funding
threw the saved teacher wages. Anyone out their, we need to take over the leadership of the union movement
and take over the NDP, what a Joke, calling this a victory.

Come on , does anyone actually believe Carole's silence has helped her, how many folks who voted Liberal will now vote NDP, or should you be asking how many folks who voted NDP now won't vote. When Jinny Sims spoke Friday she was treated like a profit, why is this, people like leaders who have courage and stand up vs. conformity. To bad she got scared away by the bullies, Also missing at the rally
was tough talker Jim Sinclair, sell out Jimmy, Gordo's right hand man. Maybe he will gets some bones thrown his way soon.

Well, they wear different uniforms, so they are at least an A squad and a B squad. But yeah, a bit of a stretch perhaps for some, but not very bloody far off, in my view.

Proving, the trade union movement, in addition to that revolution within it needs, needs to stand independantly, separate and apart from all the current political parties of capitalism, relying entirely on its own class resources. And make no mistake, the NDP is a party of Capitalism. Those Labour funds and manpower energies are needed for better and more appropriate uses internally right now.

It may still not be sunk into everyone's conciousness within Labour, entirely yet, but we are in a kind of war, with very high stakes indeed. And we are saddled with a dubious ally, who at the very least, needs to demonstrate its real worth to us as a worthwhile weapon of choice.

My own view being, it is an outdated and obsolete weapon from the last war, with which we are trying to fight this new one.

We need a revolution within, and a serious restructuring.

pkelly notes:

Absolutely correct! Carole James handled this brilliantly.

Further, if I can find just a tiny fault with Jinny throughout this whole affair, it is that she loved the microphones too much. Early in the process (perhaps the first 4-5 days) she was brilliant insofar as her comments to the media amounted to, essentially: "the teachers will decide". That should have, IMHO, continued to be her mantra throughout.

Did she not have the pulse of the feelings out on the picketline? The teachers didn't need her direction to continue to hold the line. They were every bit as incensed as she was. This was as grassroots a strike/protest as I have ever seen.

In such cases, the less one sees of leadership (whether Carole or Jinny) the better. Unfortunately, leaders being leaders (rather full of their own importance), they've rarely met a media scrum they didn't love. Nonetheless, Carole played this one brilliantly.

I certainly understand Stuart's frustration, but 77% of the BCTF voted to end this strike...and the BCFED doesn't interfere with its member union's affairs - they let them decide what direction to go in. It wasn't the FED that 'sold' out the HEU, its was its own leadership that made those decisions.
Want to change your unions leadership? Go ahead and challenge your local president - or union president in a democratic election. Want to change the NDP, join the party and seek nomination for the next election.
But be careful here Stuart. Advocating more, hardline action makes you no better than the hardline rightwinger hotheads from the BC Liberals (conservatives) that would seek to enact FAR more Orwellian measures against teachers and all unions. Like it or not, they ARE the government, and CAN do whatever they want.
Teachers may have lost this battle, but they have made unmistakable gains, and have set the path to victory in this war against the Liberals.

Did anyne hear Harcourt with Cluff on CBC this AM? Talk about plain vanilla!!!

When asked by Cluff about the historical relationship between the BCTF and successive governments, Harcourt gave about as Campbellesque an answer as you can imagine. I didn't like Mike when he was premier, and I liked him even less parading as a wise elder statesman.

For plain vanilla, can you imagine an interview between Harcourt and Bill Adequate? YUCK!!!! (Apologies to vanilla.)

Comments with which I very much agree, Stuart. This poop (Everybody genuflect to Dawn, The Grand Inquisitor of High Moral Standards.) has gone on long enough. We have been over this Betrayal Road too many times already.

We have a leadership, a political alliance, and an organizational structure (possibly destined to be the most difficult to get at) that is in serious need of big time revamping, retooling and new wartime suitable leadership.

Coyote suggests:

You touch the radical in me, Coyote. What revamping and retooling do you suggest?

Rafe nails the problem with Gordo and his gang of thieves on the head with the above statement. The Media, radio, TV and newspapers fell all over themselves to always make sure they used the qualifier "illegal" before teacher's strike. How come they don't use the term illegal or unethical whenever they refer to the Lyin' Libs tearing up of signed "LEGAL" contacts? What's good for the commoners should be good enough for Gordo and his gilded gentry constituency.

Actually, I watched the Liberals try to make it about Ms James from the beginning. They really tried to shape the public debate to make it about what it wasn't about rather than their undermining the public system.

Now Rafe is.

Ms James fought in the legislature and by doing so and not falling for Lucy Brown's football, made it impossible for the Libs to hide behind a phony 'refighting the last elections' talking point. I think she ought to be complimented for understanding what was up.

As Campbell whined after the last election he won. He is the leader of the province under his paradigm where noone else but neo-cons have a voice.

Check out the Hansards to see what the NDP did do. Now they will be able to keep raising this in the legislature making it very uncomfortable for the neo-cons.

They are very angry about not being able to bait her though. That's for sure.

It should be obvious that I mistyped and forgot the "r" in contracts in the post above.

And the griping continues.

It's simply amazing the amount of energy being dissipated lambasting various "left" leaders in BC after the BCTF membership successfully stopped Campbell's government from busting its union.

Reading this thread one could easily get the impression teachers are headed back to school with a gun to their heads, that Jinny Sims is in jail and that the BCTF's assets have been sold off to some wealthy American.

At the risk of pissing off a great many on this thread let me say: wake up dreamers.

Your nightmare is not, except in your disappointed minds.

No, the left didn't rise up and crush the enemy out of existance, but it certainly helped to ensure the BCTF didn't suffer that fate either.

Jim Sinclair didn't shut the province down and despite the hostility expressed here by some over his perceived inaction, no one else, including his detractors here, did either.

But somehow six out of 10 BC residents caught on to the pea-in-the-pod scam Gordon Campbell's Liberals were playing.

Was it because there was much talk of shutting the province down?

I think not. Rather it was the relatively sane
and rational arguments put forth by teachers and the contrasting snarky and mean-spirited threats by government that turned that tied.

So, according to some here Carole James should have jumped into the mess and screamed for Liberal blood.

Sorry fellow revolutionaries, but James would have been crucified as much by her own members and by teachers as she would have been the government, the media and not a few right here on Tyee.

Look people, the epsiode that ended with the teachers's vote yesterday was a victory, a major victory for labour, for the left and for anyone who is tired of slickly contrived, purposeful attacks on the rights of people by government.

Victories in the real world seldom come with a tiarra being placed upon the victor, the head of the villan jammed onto a spear or the looting of the treasury.

The reality is we live in a province where the ultra right continues to hold sway through, not the least, a majority in the legislature.

But we also live in a province where an attack on the rights of one is seen as an attack on the rights of many.

That was proven over the past two weeks and I am certain that even if you didn't pick up on it Gordon Campbell surely did.

i must concur, that it would be unproductive for james to join in on the school dispute.
joining in that shitfight can only result in being covered yourself.
is watching a pie in the face more fun than getting some?

the facts were all out there for everyone to see, and there were plenty of 'experts' to translate.

therein lies the problem - too many voices, too much spin.

facts are facts, and should be able to be recognized on their own.

the instant you have a political opinion, the bs starts flying.

witness krusty the kabinet minister stumbling all over himself as he appeared live on john mccomb, without a net. fortunatey for krusty, in the kartoon kabinet of gordo the drunk, a faceplant from significant altitude is no more damaging , personally, than a similar event happening to krusty's simpsons namesake.

$100K salary for this bozo. i would rather see the money spent on gas, then lit on fire. at least that would be fun to watch, and no more of a waste.

where is the invisible woman? apparantly on bill notso good's show this am.
why?
(and what happened to the govt assertion of no more ministers available to demonstrate foot in mouth disease, on cknw?).

(remember, it was predicted here immediately after that announcement, that a minister would appear on bill good. even shirley bond counts.
just another liberal lie.
i don't have any clue as to what she said, as i find bill to be a fluff interview, and refuse to waste time listening to his show).

she has been absent from everything to due with the education problem, except for perhaps contributions to the problem. (such as being an invisible education minister).

my bet is she will not be asked where she has been, nor what she is doing to earn her $100K.

gordo has spoken. he says he will accept ready's recommendations 'verbatim', which leaves him wide open to do nothing, or make the situation worse, as he prefers. he did not even have to lie.

i see no way that james, or any other individual who has no stake here, can help at all.

this is beween who the teachers choose to represent them, and gordon campbell.
nobody else.

Well, I doubt that I much touch the radical in you. :-) Unreachable, or too far removed?

As for the revamping and retooling, we have much talked about it on these threads already actually. But for your benefit, and possibly that of others, while being as brief as possible.

a.) The trade union movement needs to separate itself from the NDP, financially and by way of affiliation etc., in part because the labour movement is an institution with many political loyalties within it, which nonetheless need to act together. It would resolve a long standing bone of contention within the ranks of the labour movement, and conserve financial and manpower resources for a rebuilding of the labour movement which has been in decline since the late 70s, in terms of numbers and influence.

Additionally, freeing the trade union movement from the NDP, which has itself more and more moved to the right as politics generally within capitalism have moved similarly, becoming more and more "business" or ruling class friendly, would better enable the trade union movement to speak and take positions independant of the interests of ALL political parties with current capitalism. Which would likewise enable the trade union movement to speak up more critically regarding the failures of ALL political parties to address working class interests and treat them with respect, and those of our communities as a whole, increasingly hardpressed by Neocon policies.

b.) In place of emphasis on "voting NDP" as a solution to all our class problems, there needs to be a new focus of the labour movement on its original mandate, which was/is to organize all the working class, including the poor, persons on welfare, the special interests of parents, women and children etc. into whatever "useable" and flexible structures we can create. The object being, to enable these "excluded strata" to begin, in conjunction with the main body of the trade union movement, to actually seriously defend their own interests from the assaults currently going on within Neocon Capitalism, which much includes a, oooo, I'd call it a kind of "facilitating or enabling" role by the NDP, in very many instances. (If the Libs are the Bad Cops, the NDP plays the role of the Good Cop. But still a Cop, for the status quo system.)

Organizing people across a broadest possible swath of the social structure, and enabling them to "take the system on", again, with what has been the "traditional" main body of the trade union movement, to turn society around and "transform" it, into a more fair, inclusive and equitable democratic economic and social structure.

An intent that is more in line with what was the original and early "socially transformative" intent of the Labour Movement in any case, as opposed to mere going along and being law abiding citizens, loyal to the status quo system.

Continued next post...

So, to here, a getting rid of deadwood political loyalties that deflect our resources and energy from our "core mandate", and a refocusing of our aims, strategical objectives , and organizational energies to rebuilding and attending to the needs of our actual "power base."

c.) And in the course of that above, to prepare ourselves structurally for the new kind of fight that we are about to have to wage, in my view. Which I am not going to even try and address in detail here, because that is of greater likelihood to only become entirely clear as we proceed in the new direction broadly outlined above. All needs and changes that will have to be made are frequently difficult to see in advance, at all times.

What is clear though, from the experience of this teachers' strike, is that we are likely to experience more attacks by the State and Courts on our material and cash assets going forward, as this fight begins to be engaged-, in my view. We need to move to protect those resources, by buidling more, for want of a better word, I'll call them "underground" organizational structures and manpower assets, and if need be, by protecting them in what similar ways corporate structures themselves typically do-, which should not need more elaboration than that. And whatever other creative ways we can come up with to protect our material and cash assets from the State and its Court systems.

The progress of a.) and b.) above however, will much determine the details of what needs to be done at c.). First though, there needs to be that change of direction and focus, and the bringing forward of a leadership actually committed to implement and carry it out.

The current leadership crop is largely of another time and set of policy committments. They're simply unsuited by inclination to these new and more dangerous Neocon times.
From previous post...

A sketchy outline, I appreciate, but prudence and the space limitations of this site and thread, make it necessarily so.

And lest it be thought I include Jinny in these comments, I most certainly do not. I think Jinny, who I still consider of most courageous and admirable qualities, just suddenly discovered that she and the BCTF were up against overwhelming and impossible odds, coming from too many directions.

Carole James is a coward. Mike De Jong is not. Jinny Sims is not. This was one of the toughest disputes we have had in BC in years and the NDP was hiding

.....for shame

We have a differing assessment, Allan. All shall become clear however, by what is it, June? And Bill #12 remains in place.

Campbell has obviously gained enough however, that he could immediately give it an unqualified acceptance.

Though I actually hope you turn out to be correct, and myself wrong.

It really is that old, in the fullness of time thing, again. :-)

Like those who believe global warming is just a myth, (and like those in the Labour movement who feel that there is time left to still dilly-dally )... while anti-labour laws and the decimation of human rights are becoming increasingly commonplace...at some point it becomes too late to act.

That is always the danger. That is always the risk as history has revealed time and time again.

Coyote thinks:

Rather presumptious of you, don't you think? But I'll not quibble; fundamentally I agree with your take on the required reshaping of the labor movement. But, perhaps, that's not radical enough for you .

the struggle Ms. James is waging (unsuccessfully) to get rid of the affiliation clause that binds organized labour to the party.

This has been my point all along. I am not terribly fond of the present government but as long as the government labour unions call the shots in the NDP they are the only viable alternative.

However, for me anyway, a Saskatchewan or Manitoba style NDP would be a very viable alternative. Still, I don't see Jim Sinclair giving up that much power. The chance of being the defacto Premier down the road is too alluring.

Lynn, do you ever read George Monbiot? He wrote a great article awhile back about global warming and how its already irreversible.

monbiot.com part-way down the page, the article is "A World Turned Upside Down"

Carole did well to keep out of this.

Not only did she stand back and allow that intellectual heavyweight Mike De Jong sufficient latitude to make the govt. look progressivly more foolish. She also avoided charges of blatant hypocricy by having her own record as president of the BC School Trustees Association brought into the picture.

I'm down with the quote from Napoleon. Carole saw which way the wind was blowing on this and did exactly what was needed in the short-term...nothing.

I might add that Ms James may also form a government in the future and will be faced with as militant a BCTF as the Liberals were. There is no way she can be operate a government that was as much in the hip pockets of the unions as Glen Clark's was and ever hope to be re-elected.

So allan thinks the Fed and NDP were right, Coyote thinks the Fed and NDP were wrong and I think the NDP was right and the Fed wrong.

I completely agree with much of your analysis Coyote that labour and the NDP have to go their separate ways. If we ever got rid of first-past-the-post it could also mean a new "labour" party.

I also agree with you allan that the BCTF was saved from being rolled over.

However, that wasn't the issue. The issue was conditions in the classroom and it is there that teachers lost.

I'm happy that the NDP didn't try to bail out Campbell from his mess, it is now their job to act like a good opposition party and make sure the gov't goes beyond the letter of the agreement and acts more in the spirit of what the public clearly wants.

That's their job. Supporting a union in a fight is the Fed's job.

Demomaniac I like the idea of a plebicite couldn't it still be done?

Sorry kids. That happened on May 17 and you lost.

" for me anyway, a Saskatchewan or Manitoba style NDP would be a very viable alternative."

Interesting, my background is the Saskatchewan NDP. My grandfather was a big Tommy Douglas supporter. I think there are reasons why its the natural governing party of that province.

And I think that's the direction James would like to move the BC NDP, which I support.

pkelly says

"Like it or not, they ARE the government, and CAN do whatever they want."

They can only do whatever they want because are so called leaders are so weak and unwilling to stand up. I was at the CUPE rally on Friday and the people were livid and willing to do whatever it took. For all the tough talk the leadership folded at the first opportunity. First off all the rally was inside the pacific coliseum so you know
no one in the community could see or hear us( good planning, why engage the public)
and they decided not to shut down transit( why inconvenience the public to make any stand) The members to often have been hung out to dry by the leadership, this is a war folks, being nice and agreeable is not the answer, the right is coming at us with every power they have and we cower at the first opportunity.

What we need is leadership that is willing to stand for what's right and get muddy and dirty with the rest of us. Leaders that make a stand and not care if CKNW and others will muddy them, the union movement worked damm hard getting the vote out for Carole James and this is her payback, CUPE once again was left alone
to die. As soon as Bill 12 was passed everyone should have went out and stayed out in unity until it is repealed.

See how long the gov can hold out with no ferries, transit, teachers, etc etc.
And the NDP leadership can pin the entire thing on Gordo, rights have been
stripped folks, and all we can do is pontificate about the public spin.

I say take over your locals and throw out this pack of dogs. And labour should abandon the NDP and she how they hold up. Start a new party , why vote for Coke or Pepsi.

As far as Labour and the NDP are concerned, is there anybody out there who has not been spooked by a sleazy, virulently anti-NDP, corporate media? Repeated lies clearly work.

Thanks for the link, Frank...I'm off to read it now. :-)

People has been trampled by this government because of lack of unity and folks like
Jim Sinclair, do you honestly think Carole Keeping out of this has helped the NDP,
hey working man or Ron Irwin are you convinced yet. You know to switch your vote.
Most folks last election who voted Gordo are firm believers in his policies and will
never switch no matter how much Carole pretends unions are baggage.

Last year Gordo broke legal contracts of the HEU and then changed the law so he couldn't be sued and then took them to court and got 150 K, nice guys, do you think Gordo cares about his public image, he knows his supporters are firm, to bad Carole doesn't

I'm with Coyote, I've had enough , you can never count on a political party to do your bidding, unless of course your the Fraser institute.

Stuart, the NDP isn't trying to get everyone in the province to vote for it. Just as you would never vote for Campbell.

"Most folks last election who voted Gordo are firm believers in his policies"

Maybe, maybe not. Certainly there's a percentage but I imagine some righties want him to be more right-wing, others probably want him to move towards the centre.

But with FPTP you tend to vote against someone more than for them. I think Campbell would lose a huge amount of support if there were multiple parties on the right under a proportional type electoral system.

But you're right, the union left cannot count on the NDP to do what they want. Why should they since many union members don't vote NDP, especially nationally. The NDP is a left of centre party, not a union party. Most of the people voting for it aren't union members.

Stuart, I like this last part of your comment.
A mere after thought, but the germ of a powerful idea that could lead to getting things done.

I'm with Coyote, I've had enough , you can never count on a political party to do your bidding, unless of course your the Fraser institute.

Your words Stuart, and the rout to power and influence.

The Fraser Institute. That means they are a group. Groups are by definition powerful and influencial.

Where is our citizen group? There is a group called Democracy watch and they may do some good, but their focus is all over the place, bringing integrety to government, but also pushing environment issues, and raising money.

The latest is a fund raising party at $185 a head. I fear their greatest focus may well be raising funds, but I may not be ready to board a plane for any $185 per head party any time soon.

You have to start a well focused group Stuart. You could call it *Social Credit*, or something like that.. eh? TG
http://My.Opera.com/T-G/

And I think that's the direction James would like to move the BC NDP, which I support.

I also support that kind of direction of the provincial NDP. Gary Doer should stand as a model of what can be achieved by a more ideaologically unemcumbered NDP, one that wants to help people but (correctly) realises that business makes the lasting jobs, not government.

For a more international model, look at Tony Blair. He has increased social spending in line with the UK's growing economy, correctly illustrating that new ideas, or a "third way" is not something to be feared.

Is BC ready for this kind of model? I doubt it is and as long as it is not, you can count that the NDP will have a hard time becoming the natural governing party like the NDP in Saskatchewan or Manitoba are.

This is what I have been alluding to all along, the concept of "looking inward."

Tony Blair is a neo-con, eliminating social programs and privatizing as fast as he can politically get away with it. Please.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/kwiatkowski/kwiatkowski27.html

Yea, I don't care for Blair but I do like Doer and Shreyer in Manitoba and Blakeney, Romanow and Calvert in Saskatchewan.

Of them all I liked Blakeney the most. I thought he had done a great job in Saskatchewan but he lost to that idiot Devine for two reasons. One, he had been in power so long people wanted a change and two, Devine was promising the world including cheap gas and no-interest home renos whereas Blakeney was only promising that it was time Saskatchewan could expand health care to free dental.

We had a billion in the provincial heritage fund. Devine won and what a path of destruction. Our savings were wiped out and we now owed billions. Saskatchewan took years to recover after most of that PC government went to prison and except for Colin Thatcher it was because of their shenanigans while in power.

Frank,

If your a Liberal supporter financially you do get what you want every time, the Liberals take care of their supporters, they believe in them and stick to their values and beliefs no matter what. They do not try to even hide their patronage to their supporters. This government shells out blushing tax cuts to its main supporters and cuts way back on regulations on their friends. So the right wingers can always count on getting their way, it took one day for Gordo to shell out the largest tax cut in BC history primarily to his supporters. Just check out the bills they passed and see who the donors to the party are.

"But you're right, the union left cannot count on the NDP to do what they want. "

Free Collective bargaining is a human right protected by international law, without it the union and its workers have no power left , every 3rd dollar to the NDP came from a union, the union put an army of workers on the ground to get the vote out. For the NDP to keep quite on this issue is a betrayal, ask anyone in BC who the NDP represents and they will say labour, they will say it for a reason. The Liberals lost popular support last election, I wish Carole would wake up and stop trying to be everything to all people. Soon she will be nothing to no one.

One thing about Gordo, he believes in something no matter how wrong headed.
I wonder if Gordo would be so quiet and try to sway NDP support if the NDP raised business taxes.

Those of you who approvingly quote Napoleon Bonaparte should remember his ultimate fate.

Valid point, but remember, it was an alliance of *four* imperial powers that finally overwhelmed the little French emporer.

Stuart, The unions donate to the NDP every election. But they're not the reason the NDP surged to over 40% of the popular vote, within 4% of the Libs. There's just not enough union people in BC to do that even if they did all vote NDP, which they didn't.

The Libs do not pay back all their supporters. There is more to the right than the Fraser boys and Jerry Lampert. Big donaters on the Liberal side bought some influence certainly just as they do federally. But a lot of little guys also voted Liberal because of ideology, media, parental guidance etc and they didn't get "paid back".

Donation-wise I believe more individuals gave to the NDP than to the Libs. Most of the Liberal money came from business. Far higher a percentage than union donations to the NDP.

Political power flows from competence and confidence not from ideology. Campbell has been hurt as far as perception of his competence and there is just no reason James and the NDP should have saved him from that by entering the fray and turning the whole dispute into politicians arguing with each other. People would have tuned out and not listened to what the issues really were. Staying out of it kept the focus on the issues.

Its the NDP's job to oppose the Liberals on legislation like Bill 12, to educate people on why they oppose it and to portray themselves as more competent than the government.

Its the Feds job to stand up for unions when they're in a fight and its teachers jobs to be the canary in the mine when classroom conditions deteriorate.

"Those of you who approvingly quote Napoleon Bonaparte should remember his ultimate fate."

Its because he made the same mistake as the teachers did. He let his enemy live to fight another day when all the cards were in his favour.

In 1813 he beat the Russians and Prussians at Lutzen and Bautzen. Rather than pushing on and destroying their armies as he would have done in the past he accepted their offer of an armistice.

The allies used the time to rebuild their armies and added the large Austrian army to their side. When the war resumed Napoleon realized the armistice was a mistake but it was too late.

Martin wrote:

Are you suggesting that Napoleon's observation that one should allow one's enemies to make their political mistakes without interference has no merit?

What are you saying? That I should somehow fear exile to St. Helena? Please enlighten me.....

I feel Carole dropped the ball on this one, but not that badly. After all this situation will not make or break the NDP. She dropped the ball based on the fact that she calls daily for leadership from the premier, yet she shows none of it. She skirts EVERY question about what she would do to provide leadership in any situation. She commonly answers, “It’s not my decision” or “I don’t have the power” Spin ways of saying I don’t want to make any difficult decisions. A trait common among NDP leaders unless that decision involves trying to drive business out of this province.

If Carole is ever to become premier she would have to make difficult decisions. And so far she has shown she can’t do that. This was her opportunity to show real leadership and take a stand whether that leads to a positive or negative public reaction. The best decisions are not necessarily the most popular decisions. Until she show she can in fact make decisions and stand by those decisions I would suggest she is not fit for leadership of the province.

One thing about the Liberals is they certainly aren’t afraid of making difficult or controversial decisions. That is what you need in a government as it’s impossible to make everyone happy. As long as your trying to make everyone happy, everyone in the province will suffer from a government that can’t make a decision or take a firm stand on anything.

Overall staying out of the fray was probably not a bad idea but at some point Carole will have to face a controversial issue head on and actually make some tough decisions and then we will see what type of leader she is. Right now I would say she is more of a follower than a leader.

Hmm. Wasn't it Mr Campbell who was missing in action for the first week of the strike, not even in the province? And, who didn't bother returning?

And, wasn't it he who sat on his hands in the legislature for the rest of it?

And, you're talking about Ms James?

Yep.

"One thing about the Liberals is they certainly aren’t afraid of making difficult or controversial decisions"

Which ones did they make while in opposition?

Keeping with the Napoleon analogy, while I don't think this was Campbell's Waterloo, he did prove to have very bad advisors and display rotten political judgment this time out. What disturbs me is that he's shown this kind of bad judgment in labour disputes in the past also (example: HEU strike, which coincided with a big drop in the polls for him).

I know Campbell-haters disagree, but he didn't beome a multiple-term mayor of our biggest city, and elected twice by having consistently bad political judgment.

He's shown in the past the ability to learn from mistakes, but he was younger then and less imperial. This will be an interesting chance to see if he changes his mode of dealing with unions as a result.

Finally, I think that Carole James made the right call not to be in front of the microphones every day. Although I'm a free-enterpriser, I admire her political skills.

Poor Napolean... what a fate to be continually called a Frenchman. He was a Corsican.

Which ones did they make while in opposition?

None. They could watch, with glee, Mao-tse Glenn self destruct. Only four years ago and so many seem to forget what happened.

Rafe is wrong. Ms James remained silent because of indifference and cowardice. If she had chosen the right words she could have heaped shame on Campbell and his ilk. I propose a province-wide fund raising drive to pay for a spinal transplant for the NDP leader as she seems to have misplaced her's.

Ms James remained silent because of indifference and cowardice.

I disagree. I Ms James wishes to form a government and then get re-elected, then she will have to deal with the BCTF herself. They will be even more rabid if they see that Ms James will not be their lap dog like Mao-tse Glen was.

She is an astute politician.

Fair enough comment Frank, but the fact is Carole James has been harping about a “new” opposition that not only criticizes but also provides solutions. So far the solution part has been non-existent.

C'mon now, Frank. A donor giving the Liberals 1$ out of every 3$ it collects would certainly get one whole hell of a lot more respect that the NDP gives to Labour, in terms of defending it and its interests.

Carol is not bloody likely to have lost more votes than she would have got, by attending that opening Rally of the teachers, and even if she was careful with her language, making clear who and what principles she supported, as well as those interests she was opposed to.

As it is, organized Labour gets the old Rodney Dangerfield from just about every quarter in
Canadian society, certainly at the ruling and governing echelons. (For example, somewhere above, what the hell would be wrong with an Ian Sinclair or a Buzz Hargrove aspiring to be Prime Minister/Premier, were it true, and even running to be so. Is it a special place reserved only for Chamber of Commerce and Foreign Flag Shipping Owners Assn. magnates. I keep hearing this is a democracy, be it however much hog swill.)

The NDP has always really had its eye on the classic Liberal Party positions, and as it sees the Libs moving right under Gordo and Martin, it can't abandon its "traditional" left of centre positions fast enough anyway.

Time for a little reality in how we analyse and see the world here.

Fantasy Carole Speech at Teaches' Rally, Vancouver.

"Now, sisters and brothers, I think you know we face legal constraints supporting what the Courts have said is an illegal strike. That said, I think you also all know where our real sympathies lie, and whose interests we support and speak for, against those Neocon interests that currently dominate the House and the economy.

We are with you, and will do everything we can to help ensure you get the fair treatment and respect you deserve._

I mean, Lord Liftin' Jesus, you'd've had a Coliseum full of teachers passed out with ecstasy and surprise! The bloody NDP actually publicly stepped up to the plate and supported them in a real live crunch!

Yes, it's a fantasy. You ain't never gonna see it. So let 'em go. Cut 'em lose. And liberate ourselves from these chains.

At election time we'll individually put our dollars and our vote with that party we feel best represents our interests. On the other hand, we might just freely decide to screw 'em all. They're all with the enemy.

Meanwhile, we'll get on with building our own independant strength, and doing the job we were designed for in the historical first place-, militantly defending our working class AND our community interests and reshaping society to better serve them, and that of the natural world in which we have to live,work and find simple pleasure.

We might even respect each other better in the morning that way. :-)

Gordon Campbell is still suffering the hangover of his first term of absolute power.

Carole James wisely remained silent. Gordon Campbell made his own mess, why should Carole James help him crawl out of it?
______________________________________________
Shirley Bond this morning:

"The premier has agreed to co-chair the round table this afternoon which I am very happy about."

This just in:

The roundtable is square.

"C'mon now, Frank. A donor giving the Liberals 1$ out of every 3$ it collects would certainly get one whole hell of a lot more respect that the NDP gives to Labour, in terms of defending it and its interests."

Well put, once again a weak compromise that leaves ordinary folks out in the cold. Their was a couple of NDP MLS's at the rally but they didn't even speak. Maybe Carole instructed them not to. Leaders lead, they don't sit on the fence or hide in a safe place hoping all will blow over.
I'm with Coyote, time to take action.
Take over weak locals , take over the NDP
Take out a membership and go to the annual meeing to take them apart.

One thing about Gordo, all his scum bag supporters always come on side and go forward .

For our neo con friends, you can skip this comment. There’s nothing in it for you.

I think I’m learning something about politics from this thread. There are some good points being made even from the ‘other’ end of the spectrum.
But back to education and the teacher strike for a minute. Couldn’t write earlier because I was in schools all day. I am an experienced teacher and long time school and school district administrator. Here are few more comments and some free advice.
For teachers:
• Thank you for standing up for our schools. I hope that Allan’s perspective proves correct. (But, I fear that the concerns expressed by Frank and many teachers may prove to be true. The few concrete ‘gains’ from this action do not address student needs, but rather throw a few bones out there to keep people quiet for awhile. And you paid for these bones.)
• The BCTF needs to do much better job of educating (enlightening?) the public about the work their members do and about the generally high quality of schools in BC. I’m aware that this is a difficult task and, based on what I’ve read here, it may not be humanly possible to enlighten some of our ‘liberal’ friends out there.
• Do not expect opposition parties to fight your battles for you.
• I encourage you to go back and read Coyote’s comments carefully. Even if you cannot agree or accept all of his/her points, you need to realize where your struggle fits into the big picture. You won’t get much of this information from reading your union’s publications.
• In the months and years ahead, remember the support you’ve receive during this strike from other unions, particularly the BCGEU and CUPE. Don’t forget this when their contracts are up for renewal and the government is trying to push back the clock on them as well.
• Don’t even think about ‘working to rule’. It’s dumb and it will not help your cause.
For those teachers that voted for the Liberals during the last few elections:
• Please read the comments from frank, lynn, stump, bloodnok and others. Go back to earlier columns. You need to realize which side of the fence you need be on. Please avoid believing every piece of right wing rhetoric you hear during News Hour or read about in The Sun and other rags.
For parents:
• In general, during the last few days, the writers who spoke in favor of teachers seemed to have a better grasp of the reality in schools, than did those who were speaking against teachers.
• Yes, you wanted your kids in school, as I did mine. But think about schools and how they might look 2, 5 and 10 years from now if the concerns described by teachers are not dealt with quickly. BC schools are considered amongst the best in the world. Shouldn’t we work to keep them that way? That’s what teachers were standing up for.
• If you have a progressive bone in your body, join your PAC. A little balance there would be good.
For school and district administrators:
• It’s over. You can come down off the fence now. I hope none of you sustained serious injury while pulling yourself off the pickets.
• Hurry! I’m sure that somewhere there is an 8 year old running in the hallway or a 15 year old lighting up behind the shops. Go get them! Show your incredible leadership skills!
• Want to see the BCPVPA’s enthusiastic support for the status quo? http://www.bcpvpa.bc.ca/

For those of you excited about the Round Table, good luck. I would have more faith in it had it been started five years ago. An earlier writer described how it would be used to strengthen, not weaken, Gordo’s approach. Participants will undoubted study various publications from the Fraser Institute and other think tanks explaining how things should be. Here’s one making the rounds now amongst superintendents: http://www.cdhowe.org/pdf/commentary_215.pdf
Class size does matter for reasons Louise referred to early in this column.
Teachers, read it and be ready.
Good luck.

Carole James is a heck of a lot smarter than some of you people posting here. You just aren't smart enough to realize it.

Jim said:

I heard her give the solution right on the radio. She advised the government to sit down and negotiate a solution. She suggested they might use Vince Reddy in a constructive way.

But Jim never heard her. There's a lot you don't hear when you aren't listening...

Ed

So Working Man you don't think that the people of this province should have a say in the presiding gov'ts choice to make a law that contrevenes agreements that both province and country bound to? As for the election the Libs barely pulled off their majority and that was with the all the manipulation of facts, welfare cheques from the Fed's and the lapdog mentality of MSM. You should get over it, too, dontcha think? This term might still be a bowl of cherries in your eyes but this time the pits are there too. Careful not to choke on them...

citizen x: Much interesting to read your piece.

And seriously, there's not a one of us out here that stood with you teachers, that doesn't understand the extremely difficult situation you were put in, and the outcome of the vote.

You were fantastic, I think, in the face of incredible odds. Best wishes.

It was nice to watch the 6:00PM CTV news a few minutes ago and to see students coming back to school, with some being escorted by their parents.

People were bringing the teachers cakes and even bottles of wine.

All of the students interviewed were blaming the government for this dispute.

Jinny Sims IMO deserves a lot more praise than she has received on this thread. So I'd like to share part of a note from a friend who accompanied her daughter (Vancouver high school teacher) to the big rally:

" ... we went to a rally at one of the buildings at the PNE grounds ... Jinny Sims was one of the speakers -- my goodness, she's good! She's a very accomplished
public speaker, modulates her voice instead of just yelling, which so many of these people do! And of course, the place erupted when she walked onto the stage, hoots, whistles, standing ovation, the lot! All very interesting, and energizing."

Whether Carole James did the right thing or the wrong thing doesn't really matter. What does matter is I won't be voting NDP next time, nor donating money and time to the campaign...and I've voted NDP my whole life. Not anymore. Carole had the chance to stand up for what was right and instead she hid. She covered her ass instead of standing up for what was right. She looked cowardly and self interested. The NDP has yet to realize the scope of the damage done to itself. Good luck getting the vote out next time. Citizen x and Coyote, you have been spot on in your posts over the last few days. Bravo to you.

And BC Mary and redriver girl too! Bravo to you both.

To: Citizen X

I am a so-called NeoCon, what ever that means? How ever I have come to the conclusion that no political party has any concept when it comes to education.

Education in my mind must be:
neutral from interference of any political or Unionist ideology.
It must provide effective and balanced approach in the provision of all ideologies and policies presented by current involved entities.
The delivery of education must be provided with the tools; text books, desks and the array of adequate supplies to achieve whatever the goals might be.
Education must be a collaborative process between the Parents, the teachers at the local level, the School Trustees who are elected, the School Board and possibly stakeholders like Universities, Colleges, Industry and the like.
Employee relations for both Teachers and Support staff must be refined to provide fairness and continuance. Adversarial relations are destructive and therefore cannot provide neutrality.
Political interference cannot be tolerated under any circumstances.
Funding must meet above average to better goals but not to a level that puts other programs at risk unless we can afford same.
Ongoing reviews should be conducted for revelance of various programs for the delivery of administrative, teaching, and resource needs;
Teacher salaries for all levels of application need to be set in concrete based on a basket of like values, and once determined, provided with a COL value to keep up with inflation.
Teacher salaries must be based on the merit principle where those who demonstrate effectiveness and skill are provided with stepping stones in salary advancement.
Special Needs children processing needs to be refined and rationalized as this is the number one issue causing workloads and other issues. The teacher administrative load must be critically reviewed to establish some logic to the process and to lighten the load. This whole issue opens up Pandora's box with a diversity of opinion, but we need to find a solution.
The validity of school district organization needs to be reviewed. I am not convinced that the allocation of education dollars is really getting to the 'pointy end' of the teaching process.
We need to look at the school calendar, maybe there is a better formulae to deliver education to the kids. We live in a very complex world where we must provide the tools to our kids in the most effective way possible.
We need to look at Teacher support to ensure that they have the up to date teaching skills to deliver what is necessary. This should include government sponsored upgrading or confirmation skills training at either the University or College course offerings.
The current negotiation process clearly does not work! The BCPSEA ought to be abolished along with the College of Teachers. Negotiations should be conducted at the local level from a view point of non-salaried issues.
The Principals and individual school management must be given greater flexibilty to respond to elective curricula.
Basic curricula must be rigorously defined and followed by all schools.

Political and Organized Labour interference must be minimized thus creating a neutrality in the delivery of Education. Clearly this process involves much more than just the government and a trade union as a need exists for a forum of all stakeholders to participate in the production of a education delivery system to meet current challenges.

As a NeoCon, Citizen X, I do not want to see our education system controlled by either the government or organized labour. I do not agree with the approach by the BCTF nor by the various goverments over the last several years. We need to find a better solution, we need to ensure that our students are given a complete education in order for them to deal with the challenges we are all confronted with.

But we must ensure our education process is solidly supported.

citizen x: Enjoyed reading your posts very much..hope you continue to comment on The Tyee.

Just wanted to add how refreshing it is to encounter a school district administrator that is willing to take such a forthright stance on the issues. Thanks.

SdGreen, if neo-conservatism is not stopped, it will destroy us all, including you and every other neo-con. What you call 'creative destruction' is just the destroying of the good works that many have given their lives towards. It is tearing down, instead of building up. It is based on a self-serving lie. I believe neo-conservatism is the great evil of our time.
And, of course it is. It kills innocent people where ever it goes. Sometimes with overt intent like Iraq and sometimes with malicious neglect like in the children's ministry or in the case of Kimberly Snow etal.

It is the most evil thing I have seen in my life-times. I don't know how so many Canadians would fall for such a terrible lie. I mean, I do know the psycological aspects and some of the sociological 'reasons' that attract people to this part cult, part addiction, but it saddens me so to see so many Canadians fall for it.

It will be stopped, however.

psychological - life time - commas etc etc

I guess, I thought more people could tell the difference between right and wrong. And, could see through an obvious appeal to what is the worst in them rather than the best.

sdgreen

You write

You have mentioned this in quite a few of your posts. I don't know what you did in the Ministry of Education but it seems that you did not deal with curriculum. The Province sets most curriculum (that which is taught) which is now delivered to teachers through Integrated Resource Packages. The curriculum is fairly prescriptive and so are the recommended resources. I really haven't seen examples of curriculum that could be considered pro union or pro government. It's not like either the BCTF or the government are indoctrinating kids one way or another.

In the larger context of public education, it is fair to say that kids are not being taught a value free and balanced curriculum. The way in which schools are organized in a rigid heirarchy with kids progressing through a set curriculum according to their age, that knowledge is owned and dispensed by particular experts, that grades and diplomas are valued more than learning, all teach the student a particular way of viewing the world that they live in. This is known as the "hidden curriculum".

A lot has been written about the failure of traditional (our present style) of education. My favourite author is Paulo Friere.

Perhaps you think it strange that a teacher has such a twisted view of public education. Fifteen years ago, when I quit my very comfortable job in industry to return to school in order to become a teacher, I realized that you have to start somewhere and work with what you've got and if I wanted to make a difference I would have to accept that the public school system was less than perfect.

Thanks for your ideas.

I am one of B.C.'s public school teachers just off the picket line last week who was disheartened yet gently returned to my classroom and to my class of many students but beautiful children. We teachers gratefully received the hugs and well wishes of our students and parents as we resumed our duties. Our wings are limp but we wish to regain the enthusiasm and belief in the honour of public education in this country.
I picked up a copy of the magazine "Vancouver" (Sept. edition) because of the lead article - "Attention Class"; specifically, "a private conversation". This article did a review of 4 different kinds of private or independent school experiences available to your child in this province.

Nikki Renshaw explains; "Class size is a big deal to most parents...At the British private school I attended, there were 17 children in each class. Research from the Vancouver School Board has proven that this is the optimum size a class should be"... this journalist goes on to explain about her daughter's situation...She says," Although her class size (in this particular private school) isn't as low as mine was, it's low enough to keep her focussed and accountable"
Does Mr. Campbell see that parents really do want appropriate sized classes per teacher? We had good ratios before 2001 when contracts were shredded.Certainly not near the low ratio mentioned in this article, but in the 20's.

Future leaders of our province will be coming from public classrooms across this province, not just private institutions.We want our children to be strong, capable, creative thinkers, planners and leaders.
Proper funding for appropriate teacher/student ratios in public education is INVESTING in the HUMAN potential and the future of this province.

One can't sheild one's children from other people's world view. Nor is it in any way desirable. Make sure you talk to your child when they come home and engage them in meaningful converstation. It is up to teachers to provide an education. Not be allowedto engage in stimulating and open dialogue and creative and critical thinking makes the learning environment inconducive for learning. If this is a big worry then a parent needs to send their child to the private religious (or ideological ie waldorf) that will accomodate only their world view.

shield and obviously I mean if it's a problem that their child is exposed to other people's world view, then go to private school or homeschool.

To Uncle Jack

Yes, I am very much aware of the IRP system and the quite dedicated work that both Teachers and Ministry staff (and others) do to define the subject curriculum. The process is exhaustive and most likely produces excellent results.

I also believe that likely 99% of teacher values do present a fine lecture to students in equal terms. Certainly they did in my time!

My concern however is the potential negativism that could evolve in the new 'BCTF' and others.

As stated, we must find a better way to solve employee disputes in the world of education and other segments of the public service.

I think we ALL want that.

To REDRIVER GIRL

I am not at all convinced that either neo-conservatism or indeed neo-socialist ideology demonstrates negativity to our social fabric.

Both have in the past present challenges to our well being. Regimes like the US, Korea, Malaysian, the Thai, Greek present differing solutions to problems. African nations most of which are autocratic have wasted billions of dollars in support. History tells us that the human specie is incredibly competitive and quite frankly no particular regime has displayed any success.

Socialism unfortunately at this point does not show balance, nor does the right. What system is balanced?

sdgreen

Could you define, or expand on, the potential negativism you are concerned about?

Sdgreen, I don't consider you a neo-con, just a good old fashioned conservative, like my father used to be. Nothing wrong with that.

Hey, who remembers the party that Joe Clark led? Oh yes, now I remember: they called themselves Progressive Conservatives.

I miss that old adjective (progressive). Where did they all go?

A story for another day... and another thread.

Rafe,
I think (hope) that the NDP will successfully end affiliation with labour and have one person, one vote. This belief is stronger and stronger every day within the NDP membership. As you know we will be voting on it at convention in Nov. It should be hot and I hope we are at the begining of a new relationship with labour.
And as for turning the other cheek .. you must know the song "The coward of the county"? You know when the boy is taught to always turn the other cheek, and he does for years and is nick named the coward of the county. Until one day he is faced with a situation where turning the other cheek would be cowardice itself. The best line in the whole song .. "And Billy stopped and locked the door" He finally stands up for himself and destroys the bullies!!
If teachers continue to turn the other cheek they will be remembered as cowards.

Stuart,

The hours that I have spent door knocking during elections have proven to me that many union members do NOT support the NDP! They don't even get that the NDP support them. They are making a good living wage and don't know who to thank for it!
What you were asking for ... shutting down the province ... teachers staying out .. you were asking that for your own pleasure. A fun fight with a great underdog. You would have seen the end of the BCTF (and you know that they would have been CRUSHED this week). The Liberal owned media would have been given the message, "start the spin". Our wonderful parent and public support would have ended and the Libs would have had their way with us! You think they are enjoying this now?... this is not what they wanted to do .. they wanted to "disband" the bctf. And with any excuse they would have.
Carol did the right thing. As a teacher I wanted the camera on education!
Night all ... I am going to have to find that old song.

Carol James was a spoiler, she spoiled Gordons thunder by simply staying out of this fray,her involvement would have only muddied the waters for Jinny, who I feel did exceedlingly well on her own.

Carol James did as she should've. She distanced herself from Jinny Sims as did everyone else (CUPE had no choice). James could have helped her own cause by stepping in and helping in a neutral manner, not that Jinny would have listened to her anyway. As it stands, Mr. Campbell has a perfect oppertunity to come out of this the hero.

P.S - woody: what did Jinny do "exceedingly well"? She ought to be replaced before spring.

I agree. Jinny so into herself that she missed her own chance for self promotion. She had all the right jargon thoughout and everyone cheered on cue. Even after BCTF got to talk money, which is what unions and big business love most, leaving the ethical and moral decisions foolishly off the table. Campbell won by outplaying her, is he smart enough to see the big picture and produce tangible results that basically everyone wants? Odds are one is correct only when not trusting politicians like Sims and Campbell to do the right thing, but instead to keep up 'the fight'. James could only get hurt by association with these two. James could have stood up for the improvement of the human condition, and left the traditional battle behind and won in a huge way representing the working class children forgotten in this war...but she is in for the long haul and will not take those sorts of political risks.

SdGreen,

I repeat that it will kill us all if it isn't stopped/

Who's securing Russia's arsenal? We had started to, but you can be sure we are not now. Another CN derailment today. Will it be long before one kills people with toxins? Maybe it will derail by your house. What if China, or Russia get tired of how bellicose the neo-cons are being in the world and decide to get together and put a stop to it. Are you sure those GM foods you are eating won't kill you? The corn is killing rats. We're still selling it here for human consumption. Can't regulate according to Monsanto's lobby. Eat organic? Industry is fighting to deregulate it.

Look, it's ugly. It's evil. It's self-serving. If it's not overcome, it will be the end of us all. Which is only its natural consequence and conclusion.

It's anti our very biology. For, at our most basic level, we must remain in a group that works together to raise children.

You assume I am a socialist?

You ask what works? A social democratic democracy is the best one we've had and it proved itself. But, that meant some people couldn't have free reign to do whatever it wanted, pollute, steal and kill for personal gain and some people would go to jail.

Confucius said, "The superior man understands what is moral' the inferior man only understands what is profitable.

Nietzsche died insane.
The uber man is weak and feeble. But, the Nazis liked him anyway.

If Jinni wants to run as an MLA, she'd get in in a heartbeat. It would be nice if she lives in Point Grey.

SDGreen, there is nothing wrong with our system of collective bargaining. It takes work. That's all. This is about getting rid of unions and power that individuals have as a group. It is about disempowering people.

But, I know nothing I say to you will change your mind. And, I can assure you, I'm not going to convert to Neo-Conservatism. So, I'm going to back off for now about this topic.

Take care.

Once upon a time; there was an inventor named, Henry Ford. Now Henry was a very clever fellow, who came up with the assembly line method of building motor cars. Now he needed a lot of emplyees. When these fellows tried to form a union; Henry was not very happy. He figured unions were just a method of stealing his money. He even resorted to violent methods to get his point across.
Then in the course of time he came to the conclusion; "Hey!" if these fellows had a decent income, they could afford to BUY FORD CARS. He was correct. And now we have an autoworkers union.
Henry Ford bucked the Robber Baron trend of the time, and became very rich indeed.
This is just small reminder to the bottom-feeders. You have to be carefull of what you wish for. Your wishes may back-fire.
Democracy is a 24/7 exercise.

Nonesense; Ford remaind vehmently anti-union to his death. The only reason he paid well was to reduce the turnover of his labour force.

Unions are not the be all or end all. Many are self serving. My operation is non-union and the discrimination I received from Mao-ste Glen was wicked. My people could join a big (American) union any time they wanted but they see no reason to fork over their wages to a stranger making impossible promises.

One size does not fit all. Not all employers are the same. I do note that most of regular posters here do not have jobs.

Off to work....

Dear Luckylane

Fear is a powerful weapon, the NDP leadership and union bosses felt it this week and folded, especially Carole, the modern day leadership does not have the stomach or willingness to get dirty for a cause. So they Take the crumbs and hope they get a fair deal, hope the violent regime we have in place is nice to them.

So what did Jinny and the teachers get out off all this, Lets See
1) 2 weeks lost pay, no strike pay even
2) Fundamental rights stripped away, ( What a message for your students, well kids we kind of stood up
But gee it could have gotten ugly, maybe one day you will fight)
3) Half a million dollar fine for behaving like criminals.
4) A smug labour minister bragging about paying for any increases with the saved teacher wages.

Fundamental rights have been stripped away and we settle for this, to answer your question YES we should have Shut the province down, a strike is the only way to put pressure and improve conditions for workers, do you think
The BCTF is stronger now, the day bill 12 was passed the entire province should have went out to the streets, we Should have went out when they attacked the HEU, you know the folks who are now with Sodexho making $ 10 bucks
An hour. As you said “start the spin” I guess the leaders are the same, afraid of bad press, do you even think the NDP Is going to get good press in this province, rights and better working conditions were not given but were taken, it’s Very sad how we let ourselves get stripped of them so easily, Gordo and his bunch are not mild and move ahead united
With there agenda while we sit and argue over media image. LOL, I guess that’s the difference between you and me, I think the people have ultimate power and you just hope you don’t get crushed. The province should have stayed out until the Bill was repealed including all fines, “you were asking that for your own pleasure. A fun fight with a great underdog.

Yea whatever a fun fight with no pay, better than no fight. Now off to school, bye the way you’re still a criminal and could Be picked up and fingerprinted, I know the Canadian Taxpayers Fed are going to get a sweet settlement from you Criminals in contempt of the law.

And as far as the Union movement, of course not every union member votes NDP, but be honest, without an army off Workers on the ground and union money , where would the NDP be today, Carole’s silence has been very telling, even A few words of principled support by the people who did so much to help her. Carole is trying so hard to break her ties with labour, trying to improve the NDP’s image; while Gordo and his crew run rampant she shoots her finger to her key
Supporters,

In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.

We have flown the air like birds and swum the sea like fishes, but have yet to learn the simple act of walking the earth like brothers.

Well, we know who currently "interferes" in the process, sdgreen, and in whose interests, but who then remains to determine the direction and curriculum of education?

Teachers and parents or private corporatist interests?

There is no "neutral", above it all, God like force in "social class relationships". Save in the realm of fantasy.

The history of social relations within capitalism since the time of the Industrial Revolution, indeed, even preceding and laying the foundations for that in the English Civil War, which eventually saw the victory of the rising capitalist class emerge over the old feudal landed artistocracy, is one of ongoing socio-economic class conflict to determine the direction and consequences of social, political and economic development.

The closest capitalism got to resolving that conflict was in the Prosperity Capitalism period of the post WW2, through the creation of a far from perfect, and unformulated or formally secured social contract between capital and labour. Which events since the 80s demonstrate, with the rise of neo-conservative ideology within the ruling class circles of capitalism, while labour had accepted that social contract , more or less unquestioningly, Big Capital clearly had not. Indeed, it has since turned on both the implicit contents of that social contract, which as a central tenant involved mutual consultation, and at least a rough hewn respect[/I,], AND the very working class itself, along with its class supportng institutions-, again.

Now, unfortunately, that ruling class decision has consequences that come with it sdgreen, for them and for us, though it has taken some time for that central fact to become entirely clear. There is, however, no escaping living those consequences, for either class, and those individuals who make them up, be they [I]privileged or pauper, or all the class strata in between.

Again, I say, regrettably-, probably for most folks. As most of them really do not enjoy these things, preferring to simply get on with the business of building some security in their lives, making babies and raising families. (Though for me and my view of the world, it is also an opportunity to clean up some unfinished business with the social order of things. :-)

Now, Mrs. Coyote is speaking of some job list I have not been paying due attention to over the teachers strike. :-) It is really women who don't understand that, it is we boys who really just want to have fun. :-D

Sdgreen says

"I do not want to see our education system controlled by either the government or organized labour. I do not agree with the approach by the BCTF nor by the various goverments over the last several years. We need to find a better solution, we need to ensure that our students are given a complete education in order for them to deal with the challenges we are all confronted with. "

LOL, what do you mean a better solution, if the gov and unions don't run the schools who should do it . HMMMMM, let me see, are you saying private interest. Okay time to sit back and wait for the used car sales pitch. Private school with nice kids and small classrooms, you can sell it like this, Private school, eveything the public system could be.

Sorry some folks are just to predictable.

To Stuart and Coyote;

Peerhaps this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4376084.stm

or something like it?

Red River Girl

Please oh please tell us how we can shelter our children from the dastardly forces of the great Satan..... AKA the neoconservatives?

ban the internet? burn all the neocon books?

I hear voices...who took my meds?

Again, I must post a plea to this gutless govt. to encourage more private choices in life so we don't end up here again.
I don't expect my grocery stores to be run by the govt., even though food is a necessary item in our lives.
I also don't expect govt. and Public Sector Unions to be in total charge of ANYTHING ANYTHING ANYTHING. So, please all you socialists get real.
Look at the failed socialist sytems for a lesson.
I want control of my own life. I don't need the nanny state telling me what is good for me Stuart.
Give me my money back, I want a refund. If I don't get it soon, I will come and get it.

Ron, as soon as you return the benefits of that Nanny state, then ask for a return.

Excellent post Coyote!

Sparky, it could be said that a neo-con doesn't hear enough voices, not even the little one inside commonly called conscience.

Well , well . If it isn’t that scum bag Tony Blair (anyone willing to wage illegal wars to curry US favor Are hardly role modes, I wonder how many Iraqi kids are getting a good education) but putting that aside.

I quote
“The newly-created trusts will run individual schools or else groups of schools, under the leadership of a successful school or an outside organization, such as a university, business or faith group.”

“Among the organizations that have expressed an interest have been Microsoft, the Open University, the Church of England and the Peabody Trust. “

You see “Public” education is very sacred, just like health care. The Neo Con’s see big dollar signs when they think Of opening it up, the problem they face is a cynical public who does not want more expensive crème de la crème service Which becomes more expensive and caters to a special breed. Now very good high paid speech writers always put Out the feel good spin on this , its always about parents, its always going to make things better. They will never Discriminate against poor kids, the spin never matchers the reality, I don’t know about you but I don’t want some
Outside “organization “deciding on the funding my school is going to get, Can you say conditions, do you think Anyone makes these investments because their so nice, NO, their in for the gains on the backs of f our kids.

Ask yourself who is behind these organizations and what’s in it for them. “Organization, business or faith group” well that is
Just about anyone who has the cash, money in, make a few trade offs and money out, simple economics, don’t give us that Its about the parents BS, I have kids and if you want to get involved you can. Once the school system is opened up it’s a Neo con free for all and you can never go back. No one will remember the BS promo letter(fancy photo ops of parents). Just like back east were Monsanto and others are now guiding the curriculum at major universities. Public education is under attack and the bastards Are at the gates.

Makes perfect business sense, governments can remove funding and accountability and finally be free to do more important things
Like say more tax cuts, the perfect privatized economy. The Fraser Institute model.

ask for a refund. And, Ron...you did benefit for the postwar largess. From the moment you were born. In tangible ways and ways not so tangible. We all did, no matter what our income. None of us sprang fully formed from a rock.

I think Ron should get his money back, it's clear the education systme has failed him

from postwar largess. okay, I"m going back to not correcting.

System , sorry but Ron is just so funny, save you money Ronnie, you mental health cost and meds is going to break the bank. Get your visa ready.

The reason public school is being attacked is not because all the detractors are evil. It's the opposite. It's obviously us detractors are the only ones that actually care about education and not the public structure that supports the present system.
I know the neo-libs are running scared right now, because there is a wave of people who think like me and encourage all to look at Germany or Europe generally who nhave been so screwed over by socialism that they are looking for a way out.
Please note recent elections in Germany and Poland as an example.
I will fight every socialist idea I can because it just doesn't work and those promoting it are only protecting their own self interests.
Move to Venezuala losers.

Again sdgreen, who doesn't and doesn't want to get it, another predictable neocon solution. Just another privatized solution of the classic model type, similar to two tier medical care of the likewise "privatized" model-, one for the wealthy and another for the rest of us.

Which model of education you linked us to will fall to whom, sdgreen?

As Stuart said, "Sorry some folks are just too predictable."

Again, which parents are we talking about here?

Those with the surplus "capital" and the leisure time. Those who have the "bread" to be able to afford it. The ruling class and other upper-(true)middle-class strata who can afford it.

Bringing in "the best teachers" who would otherwise be in the "public" system.

And who will play what role?

Doing as the new "private" owners of the "Wealthy Parent Owned" school system tell them, presumably no union, collective bargaining system or right to strike to back up their negotiating positions.

(Part of that "new working class" neocon capitalism is so desparately trying to line up in a row, the suckers born every minute, who will be content to go back in time and, do as they are told and be grateful for whatever they are given. We are onto you, you old shyster you. :-)

Then there will remain a poorer financed, poorer taught, and more run into the ground public system for the rest of our children.

Yeah, I'll go for that for my grandchildren.

As Stuart said, "Sorry some folks are just too predictable."

And you are that sdgreen. :-)

Of course there are folks and class strata you will be able to impress with this Neocon solution, and others who will be hoodwinked by it, because there are unfortunately, those suckers born every minute upon which capitalism preys-, until its real intent becomes obvious, of course. But it ain't here, sdgreen. Take your flim flam elsewhere. :-)

Interesting comment thread & great post by Citizen X. This all highlights the NDP/union relationship, which was overdue for debate anyway.

Like many here, I'm appalled by the Liberals' pandering to their business backers; so it seems hypocritical to insist that the NDP should do the same thing. Further, the polarized politics are tiring and unproductive and I question whether these selective partnerships ultimately serve either the political party or affiliated union/lobby well.

The union/NDP marriage seems to rely on unions' commitment to social issues that go well beyond their members' direct needs--as the teachers clearly did. Thus the idea, as i understand it, is both union and NDP can embrace the same broad "progressive" platform and go forward together.

But both partners will inevitably face choices where they must part ways. E.g. unions supported Olympics & RAV & resulting jobs, vs insisting those dollars go to MCFD or special needs supports. As a parent, I disagreed with that position, even if I understood it. We expect political parties to look at all sides & find compromises--e.g. weigh jobs & economic benefits vs. environment with fish farms.

Unions eventually can't put "the greater good" above their members' needs, just as governing parties must appear to be governing for all (or most), to get/stay elected and that means balancing competing interests.

The Liberals have managed to govern for business for five years by persuading most BC voters that their interests are more closely mirrored by the business lobby than by labour, as represented by the NDP. It's unlikely they could have pulled this off without extensive media support. And the NDP certainly can't count on similar media support if they try to do the same.

As long as we have more $$-conscious voters than union voters, an NDP that's seen as the voice of unions will have a hard time getting elected. Enough people will hold their noses and vote for the Liberal scam because they see the alternative as just another scam, and one that offers them even less.

So I think that in the long, slow run, Carole James has done more to help the labour movement than she could have done by taking a highly visible pro-union stance these past weeks. And I think the teachers union, while they certainly won little or nothing in the fine print, have earned themselves a far greater victory in terms of earning broad public support that will serve them and their students very well in the long run. The fact that they made their stand largely alone, in the face of daunting challenges and without highly visible political support, I think has earned them even deeper respect.

Carole James did what a wise parent would have done--she held back and let them earn it for themselves.

Rosa Parks died today at the age of 92. I hope Jinny is wearing a black arm band today.

hey jim this government is definately capable of making decisions the sort that sell us out to the highest bidder for what reason who knows, probably to line their own pockets at least this is the only logical reason I can come up with!

hey ronny you american roots are showing why don't you move back there.

A few further thoughts on who won or lost--which of course depends on where you set the finish line, or your criteria for victory.

*No one won outright.
* In the long run, I think teachers will have won the most in terms of broad public respect, though the final deal was only symbolic and is already unravelling as the Liberals back out of commitments and the futility of the roundtable is revealed.
* Unions won a line drawn in the sand and perhaps an end or some brakes on the Liberals' appalling record in eroding their rights to bargain collectively.
* Carole James won grudging respect for being politically smart enough to know when silence is more effective than words, for being pragmatic in terms of how much can be achieved in one skirmish, and for having the courage to stand apart from the unions, despite tremendous pressure.
* Campbell and De Jong perhaps won the least. They may have appeased their most rabid anti-union supporters through Bill 12 and by paying the settlement out of savings, but they lost much support in the centre.
* The self-appointed provincial voice of parents, BCCPAC, lost all credibility by dutifully toeing the government party line while most parents clearly supported the teachers' cause.
* Did public education win or lose? I think the jury is still out. There is always a grave risk that people will lose faith in the public system and push for the same failed privatization alternatives that have been tried elsewhere. Hopefully, enough will connect the dots between Campbell & De Jong and their neocon backers, the Fraser Institute, the Taxpayers Federation, CanWest etc to see that their education solutions are primarily about putting more dollars in their own pockets.
* Many kids with special needs, etc were hurt by the short term disruption. But they, indeed all our children may win in the long run, because while the settlement settles nothing, the public finally believes that the erosion of resources is real. And the teachers have learned that public support is linked in part to their standing up for our kids--so they will continue to do so. And if our kids win, we all win.

Ursus' Venezula here you come. I am proud, very proud, to be who I am. What are your roots ? Soviet ??

here since the 1750s with family buried in Europe and a couple on this Continent who died fighting for this Country so sleazy politicians can sell it off to the highest bidder, the kind you seem to support!

Don't forget, Ron Erwin, that it was a young black minister, by the name of "Martin Luther King" that protested the arrest of Rosa Parks by organizing a boycott of the Montgomery County bus system.

"On the morning of Dec. 5, the African-American residents of the city refused to use the buses. Most walked, those few with cars arranged rides for friends and strangers, some even rode mules. Only a very small number of African-Americans rode the bus that day."

The boycott lasted 381 days with an attempt on King's life and much racial strife and violence. It was finally ended by a Supreme Court ruling that ruled that segregation on buses was illegal.

So the real power, Ron, has always been with the people despite your resistance to see this.

Quite a stand to take for a seat on the bus that represented so much more.

Bill 12 still stands and represents so much more as well.

We now have an education ministry led by the-mouse-that-roared general, Shirley Bond (don't say I'm being "catty" about the mouse, I'd say the same thing if she were a man)...anyway she is now suggesting teachers make up their strike days, by giving up their Pro-D days, shortening spring break, lengthening the school year...and on and on. The little mouse general has lots of "ideas", for her learning merry-go-round-table... loyal servant of Gordo that she is. That was just the first one.

Bill 12 allowed for a contract to be imposed and ordered the end of job action. As long as it exists there will be more and more orders and more and more attempts to impose on our rights...like the seat on the bus that represented so much more.. .so does Bill 12.

Everyday should be a Kill Bill 12 day until it is officially pronounced dead.

Man without a name, teachers with rights and unions members left out in the cold also faceless.

Stop being an apologist for Carole, she acted like a weak coward. The MSM in this province
will never support the NDP, no matter how much she pretends to be moderate or to be moving
the party in a certain direction. People like strong leaders, people like those who can make
make a stand on what's right and wrong. Jinny Sims was greeted with a standing ovation
at the rally, we were all pumped and ready to fight, the applause came from normal people who admired her stand against corrupt power and media, their was a buzz of change in the room, Jim Sinclair and Carole were no where to be found.

The liberals are the big money big media party, everyone who voted liberal believes in their mean spirited approach and would never move to the NDP, why on God's green earth would Carole try and get their support, the Liberals lost the popular vote, more folks do not support their agenda, fundamental rights were stripped via the courts and
she rolled over, the enemy is attacking and she hung us out to dry.

She has gained no more support but has turned her back on her supporters, change only happens when folks are willing to take risks and stand up for something, Gordo makes no apologies for his extreme actions, he has the courage and knows where his support base is, Carole is living a pipe dream if she thinks she can sever labour and still be left standing, Gordo and his supporters will watch with glee as Carole eats her main allies for a pat on the head by Michael Smyth and his ilk.

Because you people don't seem to have enough sense to not kill the goose that laid the golden egg, Venezuela will be moving here! Ron, hope you enjoy a more socialist, protectionist and nationalistic society because that will ultimately be the fruit of your labours.

While I agree the NDP should not abandon labour and if they become the '3rd way' they will lose my vote.( I'll stay home before I vote Green or BC Libs)

However, it is obvious Ms James avoided throwing the rabbit into the briar patch and did not play into Mr Campbell etal's hands in spite of the frantic attempts to entice her into doing so. Had she done so, the liberals might have been able to obscure the issues. They were not able to make this about the NDP fighting the last election rather than their actions. I dont' consider anything Mr Campbell does as courageous. In fact, the opposite.

Lynn, I'm not surprised they are still being punitive and this shows the roundtable is nothing but a public relations 'concession'. They are too clever by half.

I heard parts of a speech by Ms Parks last night. She said she would stand up for anyones human rights anywhere. While that isn't where her journey started it is where it took her. Equity through public education are basic human rights.

Good points Name. The Taxpayers Federation is really tossing their effectiveness to the wind by persecuting unions. Any sway they had as a 'legit' organization is lost. So, they really are losers here too. I would sue them if I were the union. And/or demand the federal gov't investigate their claims of non-partisanship and their non-profit status. Either way, they don't have any credibility anymore.

I agree the NDP should not abandon labour and if they become the '3rd way' they will lose my vote.( I'll stay home before I vote Green or BC Libs)

However, it is obvious Ms James avoided throwing the rabbit into the briar patch and did not play into Mr Campbell etal's hands in spite of the frantic attempts to entice her into doing so. Had she done so, the liberals might have been able to obscure the issues. They were not able to make this about the NDP fighting the last election rather than their actions. I dont' consider anything Mr Campbell does as courageous. In fact, the opposite.

equity is.
etc.
I either have to start proof-reading or really not let it bug my ego! lol

Sara MacIntyre and BC's Successful Experiment with Private Health Care

November 22, 2004:
Canadian Taxpayers Federation

Let's Talk Taxes: British Columbia

BC's Successful Experiment with Private Health Care

"Provincial and federal governments should be looking to the Cambie Surgical Centre as our own private health care success story. Now its time to open the private sector to all patients, not simply Canada Health Act exemptions."

Sara MacIntyre
British Columbia Director
Canadian Taxpayers Federation
______________________________________________
This is the same person who has launched a class action lawsuit against the HEU, and has just announced the same for the BCTF.

Which is, while I hate to harp :-), why workers and unions can expect more of this from the State, ruling class groups and, as here, their "taxpayer" front organizations. Which in turn is the reason for the need to approach this issue of threats to Labour cash and material assets more seriously, and with organizational restructuring moves of our own.

These folks are all part of this new neocon agenda, i.e the enemy.

They are out to break us, including financially.

Smell the coffee.

"Don't forget, Ron Erwin, that it was a young black minister, by the name of "Martin Luther King" that protested the arrest of Rosa Parks by organizing a boycott of the Montgomery County bus system.

"On the morning of Dec. 5, the African-American residents of the city refused to use the buses. Most walked, those few with cars arranged rides for friends and strangers, some even rode mules. Only a very small number of African-Americans rode the bus that day."

The boycott lasted 381 days with an attempt on King's life and much racial strife and violence. It was finally ended by a Supreme Court ruling that ruled that segregation on buses was illegal."

Jeez lynn, I wonder what the Black society think's of teachers equating themselves with the Black movement of the 60's. I guess teachers feel enslaved, segregated and opressed just like the African Americans.

"We now have an education ministry led by the-mouse-that-roared general, Shirley Bond (don't say I'm being "catty" about the mouse, I'd say the same thing if she were a man)...anyway she is now suggesting teachers make up their strike days, by giving up their Pro-D days, shortening spring break, lengthening the school year...and on and on. The little mouse general has lots of "ideas", for her learning merry-go-round-table... loyal servant of Gordo that she is. That was just the first one."

Why is it a bad thing to allow teachers to make up the money they lost during the strike? Why is it a bad thing to allow the students (especially 11 & 12) to make up the time they lost? It should actually be interesting to see how much the teachers really do care, or wether thier time off is thier biggest concern.

Jeez, Micky, it's because the Education Ministry has nothing to with education, just like the learning merry-go-round-table has nothing to do with learning.... and the mouse general's suggestion really has nothing to do with meeting the educational interests of students...

More on this later, right now me and my friend Minnie have to go on a grocery run. I have my priorities. Love and kisses to you all the same...we'll talk later.

redrivergirl says

"However, it is obvious Ms James avoided throwing the rabbit into the briar patch and did not play into Mr Campbell etal's hands in spite of the frantic attempts to entice her into doing so. Had she done so, the liberals might have been able to obscure the issues."

Let me try and decode what your saying, Oh I get it, Carole James the leader of the opposition who 1000's of people worked night and day to get elected should only do the right thing when she looks good doing
it.

Courage is not acting when it has good optics but leading when things get tough, a basic civil right and freedom was taken over night and she sits in the shadows and wonders about public opinion. Succeeding to the deal
is legitimizing the law on the books. Mr Campbell may be allot of things but he is firm in his beliefs on what he feels is right and acts without hesitation or concern of how he looks. Victory only comes to those who are
willing to fight, I wonder if Rosa Parks would have been so famous if after refusing to move she decided that a 5 min protest was enough, because anything more would be really scary.

"The Taxpayers Federation is really tossing their effectiveness to the wind by persecuting unions. Any sway they had as a 'legit' organization is lost"

Bye the way, the CTF does not give 2 shits what you think of them, did you see the sweet settlement they got over the HEU's criminal one day strike, this is two weeks and they are going to have their pay day, its a open and closed case, the BCTF and its members are in criminal contempt of court, what low life. Its okay, the union needs a good slap in the head
for its disobedience.

I don't think you comprehend the # of NDP supporters that will just not vote next time.

Working man,

I agree with your description of Henry Ford's motives regarding worker salaries. He needed low turnover because he had invested so much dough in his factories.

I'm not sure what you mean when you refer to Glen's wickedness. Please elaborate.

Thanks.

carole james did nothing, how in the wide world of sports can anyone think she looks good by going into hiding. now i know why these radio stations keep firing rafe, he's senile.

Lets get together and throw the Bit** out , replace her with someone willing and capable of standing up or find a new place to park our support. We have to much to lose to stand by a weak leader.

Sounds like you guys are really angry she didn't bite.

Talk to me after you read the Hansards including the lead up to Bill 12 etc until then, get used to being angry because the writing is on the wall for you folks.

I didn't know they'd won the heu suit. Even if they do, they've about put themselves out of business because they've now lost the 'illusion' of a non-partisan group. They may as well close their doors. People will tune them out, just as they tune out any report from the Fraser Institute,CD Howe etc. Anyway, I'm off to grocery shop before my h comes home too.

Name, I thought your posts were well done. Good analysis.

Stuart said, "Free Collective bargaining is a human right protected by international law, without it the union and its workers have no power left , every 3rd dollar to the NDP came from a union, the union put an army of workers on the ground to get the
quite on this issue is a betrayal, ask anyone in BC who the NDP represents and they will say labour, they will say it for a reason."

Stuart, and they'd be wrong. Perception is not reality. The NDP is not a union party its a left-wing party. The NDP can trace its origins back to Woodsworth. He wasn't a union man, he was a man that believed in fairness and justice and giving voice to the concerns of those being ignored. Its what earned him the title "conscience of parliament". The end of the CCF and the creation of the NDP was a mistake in my view but that's water under the bridge. When the left and the unions agree on something then sure, we're allies. But union money certainly does not buy the NDP. The day the NDP becomes the lackey of the BC Fed I'll find someone else to vote for. Because as Name points out, unions often support things that many of us on the left don't.

Jim, "Fair enough comment Frank, but the fact is Carole James has been harping about a “new” opposition that not only criticizes but also provides solutions. So far the solution part has been non-existent."

You can only help the government by offering solutions if the gov't is willing to listen Jim. The NDP solution was to tell the gov't that Bill 12 was wrong and that they shouldn't implement it.

zena "Whether Carole James did the right thing or the wrong thing doesn't really matter. What does matter is I won't be voting NDP next time, nor donating money and time to the campaign...and I've voted NDP my whole life. Not anymore. Carole had the chance to stand up for what was right and instead she hid. She covered her ass instead of standing up for what was right. She looked cowardly and self interested. The NDP has yet to realize the scope of the damage done to itself. Good luck getting the vote out next time."

The NDP could have and should have had the same attitude after union members voted for someone else in the last 10+ federal elections since the NDP was formed. If union people believe the Liberal and Conservative parties best represent their interests, which they must since that's where their vote goes, then that's who they should tell their union to donate to.

Wow, I am truly getting dizzy trying to stay abreast of the new revolutionary council that has burst onto Tyee's web pages.

Commander in chief Coyote has spent the past two weeks rattling off how most union leaders are little more than hand-maidens for their capitalist bosses.

Stuart thinks the entire problem is with Carole James and Frank, the long time Liberal, is now vowing never to vote NDP again.

Coyote wants to smash the alliance between union leaders in sheeps clothing and bosses in bed with them. Stuart wants to string up anyone who hasn't committed to carrying on the teachers protest until 2009 even if the teachers have voted to return to work.

But that Frank is a puzzler. He has made it known here on Tyee he hasn't got the time of day for unions, unless they can help him specifically on each and every occassion he needs thm.

Frank also has a bit of a hate on the fore NDP and especially, I think at Stuart's urging, for Ms. James who did not commit political suicide by leaping into a very shitty and deep mess that eventually made her opponent look worse than an Hawiian drunk.

All three are muttering dark statements about the future for labour and the NDP.

Meanwhile, 38,000 teachers are just now finishing their second day of work after standing up to the Liberals and beating back one of the most viscious attacks by government against union members in years.

Some are suggesting that word of the victory hasn't made it down the revolutions' chain of command, into the trenches and the fox (Coyotes) holes where the leadership is furiously typing out yet one more manifesto before the howling resumes.

The revolution continues. Stay tuned.

Hey, Stuart, I haven't heard any thing about the CTF winning against the HEU "sweet settlement" or not...I've try to keep up on this... Care to name your sources?

Corporations contribute significant sums to both Libs and Conservatives, even some to the NDP, and what passes for the Liberals here in B.C.. Who knows out of those Corporations' employees, or even the Executive Suite, who actually votes for whom?

Still, politicians fall all over them, doing their bidding. The trade union movement however, in its own name as well, contributes significant sums to the NDP and gets treated even by it, like Rodney Dangerfield.

"I just can't get no respect." Kick at a dust bunny, shuffle, pout.

Duhhhh! Maybe there's something the Labour Movement needs to learn about who has real power within the economy and the State, and why. Why that gives The Enemy real respect and power "politically", even from the "lady" who keeps saying she's going to the dance with us. And why everybody genuflects their way, wants to wipe their arse and hold their hand.

Eh, maybe y'all think?

'Cause there ain't no real mystery to it. Power, power, power. Some have it, and some want to play at it. It's the aphrodisiac that really turns them all on.

You want the ladies to go to bed with you, go and get some. The real stuff. Not the Playboy, wank yourself silly kind.

The trade union movement as it exists is just another Rodney Dangerfield, who not only can't get no respect, doesn't even understand from whence it springs.

Either that, or it knows and it doesn't know what to do about it, or it's just plain old scared shiteless. (I hate Dawn.)

And so long as that's the case, respect will ever elude you, and you will forever be going to the dance alone.

We need to get a whole bunch smarter and tougher.

Sometimes you gotta stop caring if you live, die, or have the Powers That Be praise you and say you're a good guy. Screw 'em.

While I don't believe that Labour has any real friends in either party, the NDP seems the closest. I have mixed feelings about Carol James ' actions during this strike. She really had no good position to take. Had she come out strong in favor of the BCTF the criticism would have been the same old "The NDP is just a talking head, run by the all powerful unions, etc, etc."
There have been several posts here that demonstrate the criticism for keeping under the radar. I am going to reserve making a judgement until I see how the NDP is able to capitalize on the Fiberals Folly. Where is the CCF when you really need them?
I am disappointed in the performance of the BCFed, in this issue as well as the HEU strike. I have been a union member for the whole of my working life. From a rank and file member, to being president of a local union. I have never seen anything gained without the membership having to fight or at least be willing to fight. We had a situation here where the rank and file teachers were willing to do what ever it was going to take and they were let down by the upper echelon of the Labour movement. The same scenario for the HEU struggle. I am wondering "What is it going to take to get these people off their high horse and willing to get down in the dirt with the rest of us working slobs?" Soon it will be too late, everything worth going to the line for will be gone. Once it is gone it is 100 times harder to get it back.

And you think it's looking real good do you?

Sorry Allan, but there was bound to be a difference of opinion on that.

Commander In Chief, eh? :-) That's amusing.

But yeah, I think the trade union movement and the NDP are both in trouble. Wish I didn't sometimes, but that's the way I see it.

You got something substantive you want to say, I'd certainly be interested to hear it. And that's a fact.

I certainly don't intend to be attacking you for your point of view. You're as entitled as I am.

I'm not sure what you mean when you refer to Glen's wickedness. Please elaborate.

Corporate Capital Tax, "Fair Wage," and worst of all "Sectoral Bargaining."

I won't even begin to elaborate on the regulations that came down the pipe in Mao-tse Glen's rule.

And who does he work for now, eh?

Blonde Pitbull, I don't think it's gone to court.

Oh and the delicious irony of the suit? They will have to prove that it was the union's action that caused their delay in treatment which means the gov't will be subpoenaed about their activities around health. lol Now, that will be very revealing, I"m sure. And, maybe the only way we'll find out what the heck they're doing until they are voted out.

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1025-34.htm

This is a wonderful article by Bill Moyers. Really says it all.

Went through the thread Allan, and there is at least a fifty/fifty split here, being generous to yourself, on how the outcome of the teachers' strike is seen, and the role of the NDP. It's a discussion that is going to go on, regardless how much one wishes we could "all just get along."

We're just going to have to argue it out, differ strongly, and see how the different viewpoints measure up to the rapidly closing in future.

Though I genuinely do feel bad that we are on different sides of this one. (It's been coming on for awhile though, I think.)

Hopefully, we can come out of the other end of this debate, still able to talk to each other. I know that I respect you that much, that I'll be able to.

Micky, its about human rights...including rights that extend into the workplace as we spend a large portion of our lives at work.

Right now the Gordo gang is driving the bus...well, if you call "swerving" driving. The seats at the front of the bus are for the Friends of Gordo only.... who in actual fact are the real drivers. These seats come with big tax cuts and with "access" to government ( this includes access to information) that is not available to the rest of us.

We, like Rosa Parks, are not allowed to sit in these seats. We are supposed to give them up, along with our air and water, our resources, our railways, our gas and our land. The seats with these things in them are now designated for the privileged few to control... private seats for the few as opposed to public seats for the many.

The back seat, however, is getting more and more crowded and the passengers are getting restless, angry even. Those in the middle seats are too busy working and a lot of them are just not paying attention, though one by one, they, too are being moved to the back.

Lately the focus has been on the public school system as it too is being pushed to a seat at the back of the bus. The back seat having being imposed on teachers through Bill 12. Can't even bargain for learning conditions to keep our public school system worthy of the fine reputation it has always had. 'Course, that's all part of the neo-con plan.

It's the same struggle that includes many of us now... the right to sit where we want in a bus that belongs to us all, that we have paid for with our own tax dollars. The right to a good seat in our own province. The right to even drive our own bus. Now that's a scary thought to the neo-con control freaks.

As far as this latest trick by the Ministry of Education... Jinny Sims answered it so well by assuring Ms. Bond that all this fuss wasn't necessary, that teachers are trained to help students to catch up what they have missed and will do so within the regular school day... in the same way that those students that are frequently pulled from school by their parents catch up when they return from holiday vacations.

But we know it's not really about a government that is suddenly concerned about the education of students...if it was they would have funded education to appropriate levels, they would have enhanced learning conditions by addressing special education needs and they would not have cut class size. Schools would have actual functioning libraries...but hey, let's not get mired in the details...what do they matter...this government has a whole other agenda going on here...so let's quit pretending...okay?

should read ..."not have increased class size"

Stuart,
Where does this anger come from?
Of all the words I would or could use to describe Carol, bi*** is the last one I would use.
I really don't know what you would have wanted her to do... rant and rant and rant!!! It would have changed NOTHING!!!! The people of British Columbia are not ready to support a province wide strike. There are many many people like Ron, who would believe that their livelyhoods and way of life were being controlled by the wicked unions.

kinda funny how the NDPers are fighting amongst themselves about how James handled the Teachers Strike, she is the opposition leader not the Premier and I don't have a problem with the low profile she is keeping. Why shoot your mouth off and put both feet in it when the drunk and the bully are doing it for you. She is and should remain a hard target let the neo-cons make fools of themselves as they quite good at it.

The non-union sector is piggy backing on the back of the labour movement always has and always will as long as union labour survives here the open shop sector can low ball the unions and pay their workers less this has been going on since expo, only now the unions are getting weaker as they are being legislated off most sites, it is not a level playing field. The 3p arena in Victoria is a perfect example, building trade contracters were not invited to bid!

If this happened on a union site the hochsteins would be crying bloody murder! They are still crying about the fair wage bill which was the result of the leaky condos and peoples reaction to unskilled workers building the bridges we drive over the buildings we send our kids to school in and the towers people work and live in. Wait until we have some seismic activity you will find out why we need qualified people! You really do get what you pay for, quality costs so do lives.

The fair wage bill also reguired trades to be qualified instead of having one qualified person overseeing non ticketed workers. You can't work at Syncrude unless you have a Trades Qualification ticket, don't hear the right wingers crying about that! To work in alberta you have to have a interprovincial are you crying about that working guy, no.

Once this real estate economy weakens you will see the non-union guys take a big hit, if el gordo is succesful in killing the unions and sending the work offshore then the market will set the non-union wages and down they will go.

If I was a working guy I would probably be hoping mr hochstein the head of the non-union contractors union is not succesful in his ongoing effort to kill unions in this Province. Kinda ironic eh.More pulp mills will be going down soon as they can't afford to compete with mills in Asia and South America, Crofton is next or so I have been hearing.

What nobody seems to mention is that the strike, bill 12 and all the other things wrapped around this issue are merely incidentals. Now, I'm not saying that bill 12 isn't important, it just shouln't be (and isn't)the point here.
The issue was "to have the BCTF and the govt. have meaningful negotiations". This seemed to really take a back seat to bill 12 and Jinny couldn't let it go. Where it all went wrong is this:
Jinny led the BCTF into an illegal strike with no plan and no reasonable escape route.
Mr. Campbell very meekly re-canted and wanted to negotiate (if teachers went back).
James and the BCFed thought this reasonable.
Jinny chose to demoralize and demonize Mr. Campbell.
Vince Ready came in, she wouldn't talk to him either.
This is when support from James and the BCFed dried up.
The BCTF would have had 10x the amount of power for negotiations if they went back to work after Mr. Campbell asked to talk. They would've had the strength to re-negotiate and solve bill 12 at that time. Jinny used all he ammo and was behind enemy lines.
Ready treated her like the betch she is and everyone suffered. Teachers instead of returning with plenty of ammo and strength, returned a beaten bunch.

This was Jinny's fault for taking her eye off the target and instead of focussing on the point, she focused on an issue.

I expect a replacement for Jnny Sims no later than april.

The HEU class action is slowing making it's way through the courts, and the HEU will be appealing it all the way. It could take a couple of years.

Oct 21 2005
VICTORIA: The Canadian Taxpayers Federation (CTF) announced today that it is coordinating a class action suit against the British Columbia Teachers Federation (BCTF).

"I’d like to see them try to enforce order in their classroom if students followed their example” MacIntyre noted.
______________________________________________
The Canadian Taxpayers Federation is a non-profit, non-partisan, advocacy organization funded by free-will contributions.
______________________________________________
March 16, 2005
Prying Open Post-Secondary Education
by Sara MacIntyre (non-partisan)

Of all the post-secondary education (PSE) initiatives implemented by the Campbell government, the one that will have the biggest impact has received the least amount of attention. In 2002, the government passed the Degree Authorization Act and opened up post-secondary education to the private sector.

University Canada West (UCW), recently won approval to grant two degrees and is currently awaiting approval for five more. UCW also obtained ministerial approval to use the term, “university.” UCW is the first private, for profit university in Canada authorized by a government.

Opening up PSE to the private sector will also force government funded schools to compete for students, to be more responsive to students and market needs.

Suddenly, students are not simply government funded spaces, worth a certain of amount tax dollars, they are, customers. As such, students can shop around and find the best bang for their buck or find a program that is tailored to meet their needs. Government institutions no longer have a de facto monopoly on education and consequently tuition fees.

The Liberal’s should be commended for opening up post-secondary education to the market, offering students more choices, ending the state-run monopoly and easing the unsustainable pressure on the public purse.

Let's look at federal elections dating back to the day the NDP was created by merging the old CCF with labour. For each election compare the percentage of the vote the NDP garnered compared to union membership as a whole. Often the NDP received less than half the total unionized sector vote, sometimes, even less.

Then consider that the NDP has gotten a lot of support from youth, retired people, feminists, social justice advocates, anti-warriors, environmentalists etc

Obviously a lot of those categories overlap and a lot of union members would consider themselves in one or more of them.

But it seems pretty clear to me somewhere over 50% and probably closer to 75% of union members in this country support parties other than the NDP and have been doing so consistently for the last 40 years.

So why would the NDP fall all over themselves to support those who don't support them in the voting booth?

Stuart and Zena have made it pretty clear that their support for the NDP is conditional so why shouldn't the NDP feel the same way?

Before you call me a Liberal again remember that its the unions that are Liberals. They're the ones who vote Liberal, not me. But they want it both ways, they want to buy thr NDP party voice for when it suits them while backing the Liberals (and Conservatives) in the voting booth. How convenient.

Sit on your hands, or form a right-wing labour party to put your money behind. The NDP vote probably won't change even a smidgeon.

Coyote, you're an exception. You're both a real left-winger and used to be a union member.

If Carole James had won the election there wouldn't have been a Bill 12. It doesn't matter if James is not as left-wing as you, the fact is her election would have been better for teachers.

That should be remembered when people talk of sitting on their hands.

September 23, 2005

"The union has seriously miscalculated the public’s appetite for a strike,” said Sara MacIntyre,(non-partisan) BC director for the CTF.

"They are up to their same old tricks, using students and their government monopoly to make unreasonable demands on the public purse.”

Sara MacIntyre, the BC Director of the Taxpayers Federation, worked as a researcher in the Conservative Opposition leaders' office in Ottawa.

Sara MacIntyre, a grad student in political science.
______________________________________________
The Canadian Taxpayers Federation funded the class action lawsuit against the HEU.

They hired Bruce Hallsor of Crease, Harman and Company fame.

Bruce Hallsor is the past president of the Victoria-Beacon Hill provincial Liberal constituency association.

Bruce Hallsor is the vice-president of the federal Conservative Saanich-Gulf Islands constituency association

Bruce Hallsor is a former Canadian Alliance election candidate.

Working Man: What's wrong with Glen working for Jimmy? I would think that's a point in his favour. I mean JP is an astute businessman I haven't heard of him hiring "charity cases" but everybody in the business world would hire his staff in a NY minute.

In my opinion, Carole James did the right thing by keeping quiet in the media. She allowed Gordo, Mike de Wrong and Squirrelly Shirley make fools of themselves and they certainly didn't need any help! The NDP appeared to do their best to fight the fight where it really mattered .. in the Legislature. That being said, I bet Carole James doesn't show her face at the 2006 BCTF AGM (she had a little social gathering at the 2005 AGM).

There is no way Jinny Sims will be disappearing from the BCTF. I am willing to bet my strike pay (oooops didn't get any!) that she will win handedly at the 2006 AGM. I, for one, will be proud to vote for her again. She gave teachers back their pride. We did and still do have faith in her. Jinny handled all the ridiculous and racist digs at her with class. She even began speaking slower for all those who complained of her accent so that they could understand her lol. If anyone thinks that Jinny and the BCTF Exec. have no plans for the future, then they are sadly mistaken. There are already plans in the works as to how to keep the public informed of the issues in education and to attempt to keep this govt. accountable for their "unconditional agreement" of the Ready recommendations. We will not let this die and Jinny will continue to be our voice.

There has been much talk amongst teachers about which charity should receive the $500,000. I've heard MADD mentioned (given Gordo's DUI) but some have said no for a variety of reasons. I'm hoping that it will be donated to Children's Hospital and/or Ronald McDonald House since they help children all over BC.

In regards to Shirley's suggestion that the school year be extended, etc. Yeah right. Struck work is struck work. If Ms. Bondage really was so concerned about students missing class time, she would devise some sort of penalty for all those parents who pull their students out of school for family vacations (Gordo himself included).

Holy poo poo! (Which smells like shite.)What an incredible explosion of ideas and viewpoints this thread is.

Ursus; you have your view of Carol's role, and while I differ, I understand that. But for the rest of your friggin' comments (Dawwn, grrrrrr!), we are in total synch, bro. I agree entirely.

That's what's coming down the tube.

It doesn't get better from here, boys and girls, it gets worse.

Smell da coffee, smell da coffee.

Lynn. You are such a poop hot writer and political thinker, gal. Ya know I love ya, right? :-)

Poop! Poop, now. I'm sayin' the same friggin' thing as, "Shit/ Shite!" fer Chis'sake. And, "Figgin'", wha' d'ya think that means. "Phuck or ****!"

Once ya start down that road of censorship and being, "The Moral Guardian!"...

Some Do-Gooders kids!

It's what is most pathetic about Tyee.

And I know. I concede it-, as some Buzz-Bomb said here awhile ago, I lack social skills. Suck it up, ditz. I've got some saving graces.... Well, haven't I?. (I was gonna say, I'm good in bed even at my advanced years, but I could hear my daughters scolding me.)

(Can you hear her. "Now what about ditz. Is that a bad, sexist or simply a mis-spelled word? Overload! Overload! Where's the Political Correctness Dick, errr Dictionary?"

G'night Dawn. You can take the rest of the week off. Take a Beer with you.

I wouldn't donate any money to a public hospital or university right now because it may end up privatized. Who needs to give them a cent more of our money until it's clear they will remain in private hands. Van City was running a vote for 3 programs, one was the Elizabeth Fry's for preschool children of prisoners to give them a 'head start' kind of program. I can't remember the other two. I think one was for at risk youth. I would make sure the money went to a social program underfunded, or no longer funded by this gov't that directly benefits children or poor people. Just my 2cents.

Carol James did the perfect job. Why f**k up a good set of zoo animals such as Gordo, Shirley Found, and Mikey De Dumb Ass by throwing them a life line. The silence was golden. PS When they escape the zoo they could probably start a series.

FYI Mickey: BCTF elections take place during spring break...A leader is not "replaced" in a democratic body. There are simply elections with candidates. If Jinny runs she will be reelected. If she doesn't run, someone else will be elected. Really, teachers are so civilized.

And Frank, my support of ANYTHING is conditional. If it works for me and my world view, I support it. If it doesn't, I don't support it.

Comments notwithstanding Coyote. I wll always love Coyote :)

"And Frank, my support of ANYTHING is conditional. If it works for me and my world view, I support it. If it doesn't, I don't support it."

Same here, why would anyone, or any party let their opinions be decided by others

Hey, Coyote you're just as much fun if not funnier with your "socially acceptable" substitutions. Just pretend that you're talking with young kids in the room if that helps...:-)

RRG it would interesting to listen to the gov'ts record on healthcare from the legal prespective....

G'night and sleep well all.

Mr. Coyote, would you put all of your ideas together into a future article for the TYEE? An ultimate collection of your visions of the model political party. A party that embraces organized labour (hell no, the party IS organized labour), attracts business (or at least doesn’t scare it away), eliminates capitalism and classes and allows the province to prosper. That’s it. The future is born right here, right now. Contributors on this thread will hold Ministerial positions.

Do a good job and I’ll vote for you.

redrivergirl,

Good point. I don't think those points had been considered in our discussions re: donations. I will point it out to others. Thank you.

Let's go over this one more time.

If your not mad your not paying attention, shall we just cut to the facts and not talk ourselves into feeling better, overnight 38,000 citizens lost basic human rights via Bill 12, they then were held in criminal
contempt of court , lost 2 weeks pay and were fined half a million. Not to mention 2 weeks of
teacher bashing and tough words by the governing class of how they should obey the law.

Basically the teachers just wanted to negotiate but the government decided to break them, what cards does the BCTF hold now, what cards does any union hold. Taking away free collective bargaining basically crushes any unions power. SO think what you like about Gordo and his ilk but they are not the ones who had their assets frozen and called criminals and taken to court, any small gains won will be paid by saved teachers wages.

Please if you think this is victory I hope you never join my team, and yes not every union member votes NDP but big labour especially the BCTF(donated over 5 mil to help the NDP get elected) supports the NDP and should expect a little support, even a mention maybe by the leadership of the NDP. I know allot of you
feel this would make Carole look bad, okay so we should never put our neck out for any principled stand if it makes us look bad. And why would supporting the teachers who are being attacked make her look bad, maybe look bad to CKNW and others but who gives a shi**.

Gordo is not concerned how he looks, he does whatever he feels is right, and at this time he feels unions are in the way and should be crushed.(he's doing a great job by the way) How about the suckers at the HEU working for
10 bucks an hour now. Gordo picked a fight with the teachers using every weapon he had and we played nice while Carole was trying to find herself.

LOL., even Michael Smyth was making jokes, yea what ever, day of protest, a general strike will never happen but they always blow hot air about it. Now off you go to pay your fines and apologize for your criminal acts against the
state.

I don't know what else the gov can do to you folks before you actually stand up. Maybe Gordo will ask for your kids, oh no please master , okay take Jimmy and leave us alone. Today's leadership does not have the stomach for a fight ,

Okay sorry, back to telling us why Carole doing nothing was the right thing.

Stuart, Mr Campbell & co have been screwing our kids for five years now, and some of us have been standing up for them--in the streets, on the grounds of the Legislature, on committees, at public hearings, at the school baord level, at the Children's Ministry, in constant barrages of letters to Ministers, MLAs, media, etc. Things would undoubtedly have been far worse today if we hadn't done this.

In fact, some of us have been doing that for much longer than five years -- "the crisis in special education" was the subject of a major provincial enquiry under the NDP. Things weren't exactly rosy for children with challenges under them either, though certainly not as bad as they got after 2001.

After you fight and fight and get nowhere and sink to the lowest depths of despair, despising all humanity for the cruelty and injustice that we tolerate every day, your anger finally cools to white heat.

You start to realize that the fight will never be over because the enemy is us--we all have the good and the evil right here inside us. And you finally start to think about how to fight smarter and how to pace yourself to avoid burning out or selling out, as most of us end up doing. You learn that to nurture passion, you have to learn to live with compromise, to not let the setbacks crush you, and to value every tiny victory as just one more step forward. That's the best I've learned to do -- if you've got a better way, I'd love to hear it.

"overnight 38,000 citizens lost basic human rights via Bill 12, they then were held in criminal contempt of court , lost 2 weeks pay and were fined half a million. Not to mention 2 weeks of teacher bashing and tough words by the governing class of how they should obey the law."

True, however, the teachers and the BC Fed decided it wasn't that big a deal and instead of fighting, the teachers accepted wage harmonization and went back to work.

Nothing the NDP could have done would have made one iota of difference. They opposed the bill in the legislature and they will no doubt continue to use it as an example of this gov'ts dictatorial approach to labour and will clearly imply their approach would be different and less confrontational.

I applaud the NDP for not making classrooms a political issue for their own gain. Its not supposed to be about the NDP or politics, its about the conditions in the classroom and the people of this province don't need the NDP to tell them the gov't is wrong.

Name, as myself always fighting , I appreciate your passion.

"You learn that to nurture passion, you have to learn to live with compromise, to not let the setbacks crush you, and to value every tiny victory as just one more step forward. That's the best I've learned to do -- if you've got a better way, I'd love to hear it."

The problem is that every victory is tiny while every loss is huge, the enemy here is the most extreme government in BC History and is not willing to compromise, why are we always the one to compromise, what we are doing
is not working , we are weak and they know it. BC Ferries privatized, BC Rail Privatized, Contracts broken, Teresen on its way out. ( no FU*** public hearings by the BCUC with over 6000 submissions) anyone who has a brain knows
that BC is going threw shock therapy and we are willing patients. They are united and we look after our own narrow interest, each union is getting its medicine one at a time. They have big money and the MSM media onside, we have no way to get the message out, the only power we have is to hold back our labour, the only weapon to wake up the public and that has been taken . The people that came before us would roll over in their graves if they could see the weak leaders we have now. People want dissent, people are attracted to courage and strong leadership. The members are pissed and ready to fight , how can a government get away with all this extreme actions, because we feel powerless and let them, the only way to fight organized power is organized people. The first day Bill 12 was passed the people should have walked out on mass, yes the media and allot of folks would have lit their hair on fire, who cares , it would have given us a chance to confront people and affect change. You better believe the government would be more careful if what they did causes such a stir every time, the ruling party NDP or Liberal could realize their job is to create balance and to service the public not attack its enemies. Their is no easy way out of this ,

Do you think one day a government just decided to be nice to workers , we need to unite all groups and fight together everyday , not just election day. Burnout is caused by a few doing to much with zero results, don't you understand, the gov and media is so harsh because their such a small concentrated group that is very vulnerable to mass protest.

"I applaud the NDP for not making classrooms a political issue for their own gain. Its not supposed to be about the NDP or politics"

Really Frank, stripping 38,000 people of basic rights , using the courts and calling them criminals and laying fines freezing assets is not political, enlighten us on what is.

The NDP maybe cowered under pressure but the Liberals certainly did not, they love Bill 12 and used it very effectively bringing the strongest union to its knees. Funny because allot of teachers I spoke to were very
upset being called lawbreakers for doing something that was a democratic right last week.

"Nothing the NDP could have done would have made one iota of difference. "
I'll correct you, they could have made a difference but decided not to, maybe they feel as powerless as you and understand the power lies with the dictator in power and not the people.

"the people of this province don't need the NDP to tell them the gov't is wrong."

Yes they do more now than ever, I know some folks don't like to be engaged at any leval and have been so indoctrinated its hopeless but the opposition still has an obligation to make an effort. If your rights were stripped Frank would you like a few sound bites in the house or your local MLA to stand with you, oh I forgot no one should question the gov that has all our best interest at heart. Our job
as citizens is to hold the MLA's accountable to us as public servants looking after out best interest.

We are the employer , we are the boss paying the wages man, when they show up drunk or don't show up we can fire their As* anytime, we just need a little courage,

Coyote, I think you have added a lot to the Tyee pages, but this latest exercise in Fed. bashing certainly raises a few questions.

As I stated before, you returned to Tyee after a time away with an apparent determination to show that the BC Fed is as incompitent as you claim it to be.

Forgive me if I wasn't any more surprised than yourself when you discovered you were right all along.

I don't disagree there is much that should be changed in the house of labour or within our labour party (NDP), but I certainly have concerns that someone such as yourself would essentially park yourself here for three weeks and spend your efforts badmouthing labour while every neo-con in the province is cheering you on.

Even Working Man was warming to you.

'Oh yes, the Fed are terrible; oh, you're right Coyote, the NDP are just a bunch of corporate donation seekers; oh hey Coyote, your manifesto is great, tell us more.'

You have every right to continue that route if you wish.

But from my perspective, a tiny bit of solidarity with the people who were elected by the public or by their union membership to fight for causes on the left might have actually been helpful of you.

Now I see you and some of your newfound revolutionaries are saying it's a whole new anti-worker world and that union leaders had better wake up.

Nice picture you paint, but I'd urge you to wipe some of the manufactured pessimism off your brush.

In case you missed it, most labour leaders, most people who see themselves as left, in fact, have realized for eons the neo-cons are out to kill the labour movement and that it has to change.

It's been that way since the first union was ever formed. In fact, I may be wrong, but I think that's why unions began wasn't i?.

In short Coyote, I have found the timing of your anti-BC Fed campaign a bit opportunistic.

Continue on your campaign if you wish, but please don't throw verbal punches at people who are already being beaten up by the neocons.

Stuart, if Bill 12 was so bad why didn't the teachers and Fed stand up to it instead of caving in for a few shekels?

Face it, the unions are too chicken to get into a real fight and want the NDP to fight their battles for them. That's why they donate to the party isn't it?

Your "stripping 38,000 people of rights" etc is supposed to galvanize the NDP but not the labour movement obviously.

" If your rights were stripped Frank would you like a few sound bites"

If my rights were stripped by this gov't I'd fight not give my money to Carole James and ask her to fight for me instead.

Ron Erwin : "Give me my money back, I want a refund. If I don't get it soon, I will come and get it."

What the heck are you saying? That a grandfather is going to go the Leg in Victoria and get his taxes back from GC? Or to Ottawa?

Please Do it! This should be pretty funny. You have my support for your quest Sir Erwin. Just get off your a$$ and onto a horse or whatever it is you people use for transport and do it, please. I want to see this.

I was recently refered to this site as an alternative to the Canwest publications, and this is my first post.

Very much enjoyed the debate - thanks especially to Citizen X.

I have a question I'm hoping those of you who are in the know, or with greater insight than I will help me with. Where was Jim Sinclair from last Thursday on? It appeared to me that he held a gun to the govt's head in the form of a General Strike, but holstered it without a whimper.

I'd appreciate any and all views on this.

It is so obvious that the teachers only care about themselves as indicated that they voted in favor of returning to work after achieving nothing with their protest. What human rights are we talking about? Striking against an employer is not a human right. To suggest striking is a human right lessens the impact of legitamate human rights abuses around our planet. Every worker in the country has been asked to do more with less and be more productive. Why can't teachers do the same? Next time some teacher asks you what you do for a living during your parent/teacher interview, ask him/her why he/she is so quick to want to stereotype you.

"Striking against an employer is not a human right"

Withholding your labour is not a human right? I think it is. Certainly not in places like North Korea but most of the world recognizes that strikes have improved the working conditions of all and therefore allow it.

"Every worker in the country has been asked to do more with less and be more productive"

And whom does this serve? The worker? No. Because as you say he has been asked to do more for less. Just because employers have fattened their pockets on the backs of their workers doesn't make it some great goal for all humankind to line up for.

I've never been asked by a teacher what I do for a living.

"Face it, the unions are too chicken to get into a real fight and want the NDP to fight their battles for them. That's why they donate to the party isn't it?"

The union leadership is chicken , the members were pissed and have had it. Chicken your right, the media and Gordo knows it, they even intimidated the NDP from standing up. Maybe if the unions felt some support they could have went forward and been less afraid. And yes of course the unions and working people in this
province who support the NDP want them to fight for them, why would we elect a party that does not want to fight for our interest and betterment of our communities.

Go see who gives money to the Liberals and see how much these companies have benefited, the Liberals always go to bat for their friends.

Oh and welcome Tay

Jim Sinclair is a good speaker but when push comes to shove he sells out and makes cheap backroom
deals. Jim was no where to be seen at the last teachers rally.

P.S Frank, thanks for putting Eddy in his place, fitting name Eddy Haskel for the personality to boot

Stuart, the NDP and unions can be often-allies, but they can't be attached at the hip to each other. The NDP needs room to maneuver and many of its goals are not always shared by unions and vice versa. The "left" and "union" are simply not synonomous.

"the Liberals always go to bat for their friends."

Yes, apparently they do. But I don't want the NDP to do the same. When James is elected I expect her to ban union and business donations from all parties. It can't happen soon enough.

I would also expect her to rescind Bill 12 and restore gov't watchdogs, pass laws that improve conditions for kids and the poor, buy back all that Campbell sold off and make shareholders liable for what corporations do, among other things. But I don't want her to do anything for any particular group.

Welcome, Tay

Right on, Frank!

Stuart--the union leaders can only push as far as they think the public will support them; the same applies to government, NDP and everyone else.

At the end of the day, it's up to the people. And as the people we do have a choice, and we made our choice. You and I and most others here might think the voters were nuts to re-elect Campbell, but that's what they did. It sucks, but you can't separate Mr. Campbell from the citizens who elected him. The best we can do is open enough eyes to shift the balance, and we're not likely to do that with our fists in their faces.

Oh, and before anyone accuses me of dreaming, yes I know she won't actually do all of those things. But I would expect some steps to be taken in some of those areas. Would I like her to be a left-wing version of Campbell and push through all of that regardless of the outcry? Sure.

"Stuart--the union leaders can only push as far as they think the public will support them"

Their is some truth to this, but the majority of BC did not vote for Campbell, their are hard liners on both sides who makes things happen for their parties and the rest fall in line like sheep. I don't expect Carole be attached at the hip but I do expect her to raise her voice on important issues and
stand up for what's right. Standing against Bill 12 with the teachers was the right thing to do, it would have showed solidarity and firmly put the opposition in the publics mind behind the teachers. But sorry I don't buy this we had our choice argument, democracy happens everyday if folks stand up and
fight. Frank don't get me wrong , I want the same things you do but soon we won't have anything left to fight for, already we lost our legal right to hold back our labor. We are been pre conditioned to behave as obedient citizens and obey our dictators, what I want is a vibrant democracy run by citizens
for citizens, democracy happens everyday not every 4 yrs. Any elected standing gov can cause irreversible permanent damage with 4 yrs of unchallenged power, a province wide shut down would have been a humbling experience for all. The reversal of Bill 12 would be a major victory. In short lets stop doing what we have always done and be more aggressive in shaping the society we want not the one that's being jammed down our thoughts.

P.S Everything worth having starts with a dream, lets just make sure its not Gordo's dream

Stuart, you have a lot of passion in your arguments. Glad you're on my side.

But as for the teachers I was more militant than they were even though I was directly affected. I wanted them to stay out, and I wanted the Fed to back them up and I wanted the NDP to fight Bill 12 in the leg. I said over and over that if Bill 12 was allowed to stay on the books and classroom conditions weren't improved it was a defeat.

"Any elected standing gov can cause irreversible permanent damage with 4 yrs of unchallenged power"

I know and sometimes I wish the NDP would act like lefty versions of Campbell or Bill Bennett but generally I'd prefer they just be a good government.

You can quit your job anytime and if your employer allows you to strike, that can be an option. But remember... if you withdraw your services you are depriving someone else their so called "right". So just how can a strike be a "human right" when it deprives someone else something? It reminds me of Bush and Rummy explaining how they have the right to bomb and murder children in far away lands. Just because you believe it does not make it so.

Why should Jim Sinclair call for his people to strike in support of the BCTF?

Is there a law that binds all unions to support each other regardless of the issue or regardless of right vs. wrong? I hope not.

Jim Sinclair saw that the BCTF was out of line based on Jinny's performance, and pulled out.

Allan,

The Fed are all big boys, most of whom have been around a long time. They certainly shouldn't need to be handled with kid gloves. Indeed, I'm damned sure they don't need to be. They's all tougher than that. When leadership fails, as it did in my view, it has to expect that attempts to go about and make a defeat look like a victory, will get them criticeism. Richly deserved, in my view.

And had we taken a serious run at the can, only to discover that indeed we do not have the muscle, and we may well not, indeed, I'm, almost damn sure NOT, then its not a time that we and they bury our heads in the sand and try to pass it off as a victory of some sort, but it is a time to speak openly and honestly about it.

For it just may tell us, what we really need to do.

The analysis of labour's situation and how it has evolved since the primary failure in 1983 has been shallow for too long, nay, not even forthcoming. It has been put in a closet, to be forgotten and never seriously and analytically looked at again.

Labour is failing and in decline big time, and I am far from the only one in the House of Labour who thinks so. Others are in simple denial. It is primarily this that needs to change, and an open, honest and frank debate be allowed, without name calling, and a serious analysis evolved that takes into account the deep and disasterous effects neoconist policy, coming out of the very ruling class of our society itself, since the Kerkhoff Construction dispute days, has had on the trade union movement, even upon the bloody NDP fer chris'sake. Denial and head hiding achieves nothing and never will, until it's all gone and too damned late.

And phuck what the Neocon nutters here think. Are they to be allowed, because of the sides they take or do not, to divert us from the task to renew the house of labout and face up to our own organizational and leadership shortcomings, so that we can actually seriously to begin this process.

The world has changed, and the form of the capitalism with which we have been familiar throughout the postwar, creating a seriously more dangerous world for ourselves, the labour movement, and the working class at large. We continue to go around trying to make defeats appears as victories, with our ass ends vulnerable and exposed in the air because our head is in the sand, or we get frank and honest with ourselves, and leadership play a leading role in that, so that we can actually develop a programme and structures that will seriously, probably over even an extended period of time, that will enable us to get on it-, instead of playing this empty, going nowhere game of business as usual, as if nothing was wrong.

And I do not especially want to crucify the current leadership of the Fed, but I do want them to take the lead in the renewal process that absolutely must go on-, or step aside and make room for that leadership that will. (And I will concede, that there is a problem there as well, because as yet I do not see a serious leadership alternative beating at the doors-, with ideas that have anymore depth or will likely succeed any better. Which is the most serious measure of the depth of the problem within the House of Labour.)

I, as I think should you, and including the Fed, should stop giving a twaddle what the Neocons are saying here or out of what motivations. We know these asseholes, or do we not?

Time we got about our own business of hauling our assses out of the fire.

Sorry. I sent that piece prematurely. Premature ejaculation, :-) before I had an opportunity to edit it. I hope you can all still make sense out of it.

Eddy, when a union strikes it puts pressure on both sides. The workers are after all are no longer getting paid. Being able to take collective action against an employer forces both sides to negotiate. If the workers demand more than the company can deliver they'll lose their jobs when the company flounders. But the reason there's a union within a company in the first place is because the workers got fed up with the employer not addressing pay and working conditions. Forming a union forces an employer to take notice of issues he'd rather ignore.

Oh Eddy ,

Not really interested on what you think a right is, very dangerous when we all have our own subjective opinion on what rights we should have as citizens. That's why we have such a thing as a charter of Human Rights.
That is for everyone, except Gordo I don't think he has read it.

Just for an example

"2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
(a) freedom of conscience and religion
(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other means of communication.
(c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
(d) freedom of association.

Now Class do we see any rights that may have been violated, if so maybe we could challenge Bill 12 in supreme court as a violation of the charter.

Well Micky

The words called solidarity, its when folks stick together and confront power together. There is no law that makes them, I guess some folks only do the right thing when their forced to , but come on Bill 12, if you don't stand against that you won't stand up for anything. In short Jim got scared.

Good Posts Coyote as always.

Time to address some issues and admit the problems we have.

The union movement needs to be more proactive in its thinking , more long term and
progressive with its values. They should be much more active on many fronts in the
community and engage folks daily , not just when the contracts are due.

Some quick ideas to throw out.

Have summer and x mas parties , have your local hire a band and have a big community picnic and donate half the cast to local charities and the rest to other unions in struggles. Give you union a local face in the community.

Media time, we are way behind on this folks, stop waiting for a fair deal from CanWest,
All major European countries have a leftist paper, we need a major daily in Ottawa, Montreal Toronto and Calgary, Vancouver, We need to fight back in the media, have progressive papers that are union supported. Why cares if they accuse us of bias, we at least would be able to dispel
the crap in the right wing media.

Supporting independent radio, I hope all you folks have renewed your annual membership at CFRO 102.7 Fm
Start our own radio.

Have education scholarships for members. Have a contest each year and have unions give
say 50- 100 scholarships away to the best and brightest. Flood the education system with
progressive voices, the layers and politicians of tomorrow will have a different face.

Support other groups, Peace , Justice, whatever is in line with your values,
and stick together , what effects someone else effects us all.

Take over and get involvers.

We must become involved in all aspects of our communities. How many of you folks are running in the
upcoming civic elections.

Stuart: "In short Jim got scared."

No one got scared Stuart. Sinclair came in for support, but Jinny was too pigheaded to take good sound advice. Even a union can go only so far before realizing the truth, which is what Sinclair did.

Solidarity, fair enough, but every union in the world cant stop working because Jinny cant realize what battle she is fighting, let alone how to win it. Maybe we should all go on a hunger strike because Ms. Sims is a dingbat. Yah, solidarity baby!

P.S - I'm not against the teachers BTW, I just think the BCTF had the upper hand and proceeded to throw it away by not negotiating. That is why she lost support, not because of Jim Sinclair being a kept man.

Micky said, " I'm not against the teachers BTW, I just think the BCTF had the upper hand and proceeded to throw it away by not negotiating. That is why she lost support, not because of Jim Sinclair being a kept man."

The BCTF tried to negotiate with the government but they would have nothing to do with them. During the summer, many attempts to talk were with the government made by the BCTF when it was clear that BCPSEA would NOT discuss the issues.

The 49th Convention of the B.C. Federation of Labour will be taking place next month, from November 28 to November 30.

There will be numerous delegates from both the BCTF and the HEU.

I am sure that they will be looking forward to discussing their opinion of Jim Sinclair's leadership during the last couple of years.

sinclair /sin’ klare/ v.t. (From the Old English [sine’ kleer] something that is obviously wrong or manifestly evil): to sinclair: 1. to abandon the right to strike; 2. to refuse to implement a decision which has been democratically adopted; 3. to abandon children to privatization; 4. to give up prematurely; 5. to insert sharp objects between the shoulder blades of someone who had previously trusted you; 6. to betray a trust; 7. to be able to live with a wage freeze in the public sector; 8. to force strikers back to work without a vote; 9. to use the media to coerce another union leader to submit an unacceptable offer to her membership; 10. to cringe; 11. to crap out; 12. to create a self-fulfilling prophecy by doing nothing; 13. to curry favour with the bosses by buying tables at Liberal fundraisers with the members’ money; 14. to bluster; 15. to splutter; 16. to engage in frequent bouts of bombast and hollow rhetoric; 17. to wear a nice suit; 18. to rise above the common folk and achieve a higher social station; 19. to refuse to confront a bully; 20. to tie the hands of someone fighting for their lives behind their backs and then help their oppressor kick them while they are down, taking time to make frequent and thinly veiled attacks on them in every TV appearance; 21. to run away. Synonym: Kelowna accord, social contract, Munich, weasels, rabid dogs; jumping spiders. Antonym: courage, victory, principle, happy ever after, lambs and bunnies frolicking in a meadow, general strike.

North of Hope: "The BCTF tried to negotiate with the government but they would have nothing to do with them. During the summer, many attempts to talk were with the government made by the BCTF when it was clear that BCPSEA would NOT discuss the issues".

Yes, I realize that. What I'm referring to is when Mr. Campbell asked them (1 week into the strike) to sit down and negotiate.
I know some of you will say "he shoulda done it sooner" or something like that, but fact is; he did back off and want to talk.

At that moment, the BCTF was holding all the cards and would have better served the cause by saying "O.K let's talk, but if there is not good faith, we go out again. You know we'll do it too". Then the BCTF could have effectively discussed bill 12 along with the other concern's, you remember, the kid's. As I said above Jinny didn't allow Campbell an exit, didn't have her own exit either. Instead of Jinny being the hero and settling a dispute, she wanted to be-little and punish our premier. That was the beginning of the end for rational talk. The evidence does show that Mr. Sinclair wasn't pleased with her handling of this dispute. Mr. Ready was not happy with her either. The fact that the teachers cant see that Jinny threw it all away and made them look like fools is amazing, even laughable.

In poker term's, Jinny didn't raise or fold, she checked, and that allowed Mr. Campbell to catch the river card.

Rick said of Sinclair

First, I've never seen Sincliar in a "nice suit". Frig I don't think he could buy one because he hasn't got any fashion sense.

But then we didn't support his leadership on the basis of fashion and style. It was substance that atttracted the progressive wing of the labour movement.

Rick why would you put so much energy and wit into childish excersise of name calling. My god, it is no wonder the left can not move its policies forward. Its full of crackpots just like the rightwingers.

And believe me the lunitics frighten the be-jesus out of main stream labour. Used to be the London May Day march atracted hunderds of thousand, nobody goes anymore cuz you can't bring your kids or your mother. Nothing like the sound of plateglass shattering to soothe the masses.

I've said it before on another thread. Coyote you'd be a great guy to sit down and while away a few hours over refreshements. And jeez can you ever write a philosophical manifesto.

The hard part is an action plan that is do-able. Why not put yourself in a theoretical position of leadership. And write a practical manifesto of actions, that would be supported and sustained by your membership, and the public at large. Or even better, you are the leader of the Fed for one term. What can you do to change the landscape of socitety?

Stuart actually took a stab at it. Theres quite alot in there that is very useful. Some of which lots of unions are already doing. But I would say we are not doing enough of community involvement work. As well we are not doing enough in terms of mutaul solidarity on a day to day basis. Nevermind the headline gr4abbing "big events".

I have been working inside my union and building support for many of the kind of events described by Stuart. I have long believed that solidarity is a two way street, and as well, we need to flatten the pyramid of leadership. In other words we must do a better job of delegating the work. If we only look to the leadership of labour and expect them to do everything for us then we will ... well ... continue to wait.

To much reading of theory and nothing of substance is enjoyable, but it doesn't get the dishes done.

Stuart, if you haven't picked up on it, nicely done. I'm going to paste your last post and email it to myself and others.

I just sat in all day executive board today, living all of this in real life. And as mentioned, labour has its warts, but a pox on all the buggers who just whine and don't get off their ass and effect the changes they bleat about.

Lots of talk about the teachers having lost. Here's an alternative view. Watch what has happened already, and judge for yourself whether this has strengthened, or weakened the Liberals credibility. First, the "round" table has concluded that they don't have a clue what the real situation in the classroom is. (It is the Minister's job to know, isn't it?)

Second, the teachers ended their action because the alternative was to lose public support, and be bankrupted by the courst. Both those outcomes would have weakened their ability to win positive changes in the system. This way, the public, including those of both right and left on this thread, are actually talking about the issues of class size and composition. Talk will produce knowledge, and knowledge will result in pressure on an ignorant and incompetent Ministry.

Third, the Minister has revealed her naivete by suggesting "we could extend the school year into June". Hello? School ends in the last week of June. And even if this was an innocent slip of the tongue, her suggestion that the calendar can be changed at this point reveals her complete ignorance of the complexities involved.

And just in case anybody out there thinks that there is no problem with educational funding as applied to classrooms, there are thousands of teachers out there who have daily, first hand experience. And if a teacher has forty students in a class, then that means that forty families also know there is a problem.

I think the Liberals are terrified of this debate, because the solutions to their mismanagement are going to cost millions.

So, for those who think the teachers lost in this dispute, consider the implications as the truth becomes known to both the government and the general public.

Congratulations teachers

From The Province
Wednesday, October 26, 2005
Page a12

Taylor hopes to learn from teachers' strike as other talks loom

VICTORIA -- The B.C. government is sending signals it learned its lesson about labour negotiations during the recent two-week illegal teachers' strike as spring contract talks with up to 200,000 unionized workers approaches.

Ok Pete, you got me on the "nice suit" but have no argument on the twenty other points, Sinclar is a sell-out, not only of the BCTF but also the HEU, I'm one of the many that got off my ass to support both fights as well as the Ferry workers, when a worker is willing to go to those lengths, it's saying something and when a leader fails to represent those feelings publicly? they are SELLING OUT! many unions know about the warts and I hope your paying attention when they begin to distance themselves from the biggest one.... the B.C. Fed.

Rick, were you in the repective boardrooms where this sellout is alleged to have occurred? Have you spoken with anyone who was?

Honestly, you have to go back and study federation 101 again. Cuz you are just spouting off and do not know anything about federation governance structure.

On previous threads and maybe this one too, I have tried to explain how trade unions fit into various federations and how they work, the nuances etc. But I'm not going to write all that again just because your nose is right outta joint.

If your a member of a union, ring your President and ask what he or she did on behalf of the teachers. What positions did they take in the boardroom? Your little ditty was trite and not helpful. And I bet you wouldn't say that to anyones face but you think you can pull that shite on the anonomous internet.

You obviously have loads of misguided talent. Put it to good use.

Excellent points PeterL. And kindly put.

When you are actively engaged, trying to making positive changes in your world - you are quickly humbled by the contradictions inherent in the process. People who are thoughtful and active themselves are not prone to critcising others in such a rude and petty manner.

Pete, do you collect a salary working for the BC Fed?

If so, what did the Fed actually do during the HEU and BCTF strikes?

{Besides holding board meetings and coming up with a rally now and then}

Because most of us aren't sitting in at a BC Fed board meeting, we only see the end result.

Leicester, "the teachers ended their action because the alternative was to lose public support,"

This is not a fact, its a guess based on Baldrey and Good's "analysis" and a poll showing support for the strike was lower than support for what teachers were striking over. It might be true, and it might not. After all, teacher support did increase after the strike began.

And yes, the gov't may decide to fix education. Then again, looking at their turnaround on how the money they saved is going to be spent, they may not.

ah, the government shows its true colours once again - read the front page of the sun this morning. teachers will not be paid at the end of october. i did post this a couple of days ago and am happy to see the media finally pick it up. what usually happens is school boards spread out the deductions over several months in order to maintain good relationships with their employees, but those who are trying to do so are being threatened by the deputy minister of education. hmmmm...who's running the education ministry, anyways? i kind of thought it was shirley bond, but i guess not, she's just a mouthpiece and not a very good one at that. we really should hear more about emery dosdall - what i've heard about him is not very good. funny how you never hear about those back-room players who are really in power over in victoria, isn't it? well, i'm off to teach and try to figure out how to cope with a paycheque on monday that says $00.00!

Frank wrote

No Frank, I don't work for the Fed, in fact never have. But if you had actually read my posts, its pretty obvious.

However I have been to the Fed, asking for solidarity on a few occasions over the years. As well I have been to strike support meetings there as well. I wasn't in any of the meetings in this dispute, but some of my brothers were.

Like I said to Rick, if you are a member of a union, ring your President and ask what your unions positions were during the dispute and going forward generally. Its not difficult

I actually should add, having read most of the posts during this dispute I have not detected anyone from the Fed posting spin.

I have, over the past two weeks tried to post some insight into how a federation works, what are their responsibilites and what are the responsibilities of the affiliates involved, either directly or purely on the basis of sympathy. Finally what are the resposibilities of individuals who might go out and walk a line.

I have tried to do this as a service to our vast community of on The Tyee who want to engage in this important debate. So that they and you have some of the information that might assist in reaching thoughtful conclusions.

My mistake I guess. Never let the facts get in the way of a good story right?

Okay, thanks Patel for the compliments. I think we must pick up the pieces and move forward from here, I just wish their were not so many pieces to pick up. Maybe to many this time for some.

I fear the trust and solidarity of the labour movement has been broken and is going to take some time to fix, yes allot of us were not at the table but were willing to lose pay and take to the streets unlike the leadership. This is why I understand the anger of Rich and Frank, if we don't stand together the government will take us down one at a time, our enemy does not even flinch.

What happened to the HEU was a crime and should have been stopped, who gives a shi**
about the polls or the media we must stand up and do what's right, should we only do whats
right when it looks good. Many members were livid and ready to do whatever it takes, I went to the rally at the PNE and became very depressed. For the following reasons.

1) Jim and the NDP leader were noticeably absent, I felt a backroom deal in the works.
2) I seen CUPE members ready to fight but left to fight alone,
3) 1000's of people losing a days pay so we could hide in the Pacific coliseum away from the public.(terrible planning,)
People get attacked and bad things happen to those who walk alone, public opinion switches from day to day and should never be a guide for doing the right things. The majority of voters despise Gordo, more folks
voted against him and the public knows what's he's about , we should have stayed out and stuck together until bill 12 was repealed.
Don't get me wrong , I like Jim Sinclair and think he's a good speaker and admire some work he's done in the Peace movement but missed his voice at the rally. I think we need a overhaul of the current structure.

With every crisis is an opportunity and every failure a chance to reevaluate

Petel , don't take things so personal, people are pissed and do not turn on and off like a switch. Honestly I think the union membership and the NDP are going to take a hit on this one no matter who tries to spin it as a Victory.

Image if in the house Carole James stated that Bill 12 is confrontational that it may erupt in a general strike , couch the general strike as a gov decision not labors, time to fight dirty and stop treating the gov like they have all the power.

Lets face it with 2 years of CanWest and all the chest beating we are going to get over the Olympics no one will remember this strike and the Liberals will win the next election hands down.

The old parable comes to mind. If you want to keep getting what you've always got , keep doing what you have always done.

Come on lets ramp up the fight now, show the province as a place in chaos under liberal rule.

Nothing worth having comes without a fight, dissent is fun. Lets start now,

Pete, "I don't work for the Fed, in fact never have. But if you had actually read my posts, its pretty obvious."

" if you are a member of a union, ring your President and ask what your unions positions were during the dispute and going forward generally. Its not difficult"

Well, not to be flippant but I was under the impression you did. And as I've stated here ad infinitum I'm not a member of a union.

Three things,

The BCTF abandoned a strike they were winning (support-wise).

They achieved nothing in regards to their stated goals.

It appeared to me that the BC Fed was undermining their position after holding a few rallies.

I believe Stuart, Rick and I agree on these 3 main points. I would also add that Sinclair always seems like a good guy on the radio but that's a two-edged sword as it raised my expectations of what he would do in a labour crisis.

We don't accept the view that surviving is a victory. If public support and a just cause are not enough to go the wall for then why strike at all? Unions would never be in any danger if they voluntarily gave up their right to strike.

Doing so essentially means the unions would only go on strike against the NDP because they would be ideologically opposed to union-busting so the unions could strike in safety. That seems bas-ackwards to me.

Coyote, I am sure there are big boys, and big girls[B] in the BC Fed.

And I have been assuming you are a big boy as well Coyote, so please don't skirt the issue I've raised with you.

My concern isn't about how tough the fed officers are but why you came into this issue telling everyone the fed was a bunch of perennial losers.

You were predicting the fed would disappoint right from your first words.

Frankly, I think Jinny Sims and who ever was advising her may have been as much at fault for the departure of the fed from the dispute as anyone.

That Sims would walk out of closed door talks with Vince Ready and head to a microphone to pronounce how things were going, all the while expecting to sit back down in those closed-door talks, struck me as an extremely green (as in naive) move.

If I were an experienced labour leader being asked to support her 38,000 members, I think I might suddenly have a few concerns about her smarts or the smarts of the people advising her.

That you would then take the fuss that arose from that situation and place the entire blame on Jim Sinclair and Co., tells me you either don't actually grasp what happens in the back rooms or that you're as quick as any paid mouthpiece to grab at whatever straw that points in the direction you are trying to head.

You were spoiling to blame the fed no matter what happened.

I suspect that had Sinclair successfully called for every last member of BCFed-affiliated unions to walk off the job, you would be blaming Sinclair for the non-union workers who ignored the call.

Yes, there is much to be done to shore up labour's tenuous grasp on power in BC.

Using a major dispute like the teachers to crap all over the house of labour, even before the event occurred is hardly what I call big boy type of move.

And then to try to ridicule the leadership as bumbling dolts really adds to the knowleged base. That, if anything, showed your pre-existing contempt.

If I didn't know better Coyote I'd suspect another agenda at play here.

But what really bothers me is how you and others, such as (drive-by) Stuart, can continue moaning about the great defeat.

A neo-fascist government had set up an elaborate process for entrapping 38,000 middle class teachers in legally binding court-enforced slavery for some five years and also planned to smash its unions.

The 38,000 members surprised even its own executives and told the government to get stuffed and in doing so reaped the support of the majority of British Columbians in a showdown that forced the government's hand.

That may be an extreme loss in the mythical land of labour you and Stuart reside in, but back here on earth some of us see that as an extremely progressive step. So progressive some of us even call it a victory.

My apologies if I have unceremomously interupted the pall of your funeral procession, but if you put your ear toward the body you're bemoaning you might note it's still breathing.

I'm not sure why Coyote's assertion that we should cut the state of self-denial and start to take a new approach...one that works...is viewed as threatening...unless you're into masochism and enjoy the pain of being beaten down time and time again. It's not for me, at least.

The weakening of the left and the increasing impotence of unions has a lot to do with a process of collaberation I think...unwilling, willing, opportunistic or just plain foolish collaberation with those whose interests are supposedly not ours. But perhaps they have "become" our interests...perhaps we've danced co-dependently with the enemy for way too long... so maybe we better find out what we do stand for, what distinguishes us from THEM and stay true to it. Not be swayed or swept away.

Why is it so radical to say that this kind of sleeping with the enemy must stop?

Because Gordo's gang now looks at the players...union leaders, mediators et al with the same self-interested, drooling way the US looks at Gordo...as pawns to be used...as in the case of the teachers strike, as pawns to stop the momentum...to normalize the situation... which in this case was "back to school" at any cost... and for the neo-cons "back to business"...and all's suddenly right with the world.

So I'm sure allan is probably quite right that Ready is an honorable man, as is PeteL's defence of Sinclair's best intentions... still, they are in fact, now being used by Gordo and crew as a means to an end...and that is a weakness that cannot be overlooked. ( There are real questions surrounding the mandate this government gave to Ready and when they exactly gave it to him...read the hansard).

That is what Coyote, Frank, Stuart, Rick and a number of others are simply saying...no matter how you cut it, something is failing... strong leadership is an endangered species, few real leaders left. And that is a reflection on the members themselves as much as the leaders.

Fake it 'til you make it isn't working ..the final result is important...how can you avoid it? That's what Frank, citizen x and blonde pitbull, myself and others were questioning about the teachers' strike when everyone was declaring it a win....Will learning conditions in our schools have improved as result of this strike? I think most of us know the answer to that.

So while Campbell took some good knocks and the teachers earned a large measure of well-deserved good will and support...I wouldn't count on riding on it alone, especially when Bill 12 still stands...and not while this wiley, shameless government remains in power...they are relentless...in the spirit of the season :-) this is an all tricks, no treats government...as the past few days have demonstrated with their vendetta against the teachers and our public school system carrying on as usual.

Two weeks ago Education Minister Shirley Bond said school boards will be allowed to keep the money being saved during the strike – a total of about $15 million a day.

Yesterday, the NDP cited a leaked government letter yesterday in accusing the Liberals of planning to strip money saved during the teachers' strike from the school system.
______________________________________________
District education grants will be reduced, Bond says

The Globe and Mail Page S3
Thursday, October 27, 2005

Victoria -- Education Minister Shirley Bond has changed her tune about what will happen to the millions of dollars saved in the recent teachers' strike.

During the illegal walkout, Ms. Bond had said the money would remain with school districts.

But now she acknowledges her ministry will reduce the education grants that districts get from the government.

She says the money will ultimately be used by school boards, including $40-million for class size and composition in line with the recommendations of mediator Vince Ready.

NDP education critic John Horgan says the education system needs new money, not a rejigging of existing funds.

It's estimated that school districts saved $150-million in wages during the two week strike. CP
______________________________________________
VANCOUVER/CKNW(AM980)
Oct, 27 2005 - 8:30 AM

When asked October 12th about what would happen to the savings back, Bond said the general principle is the funds would remain with school districts.

But now it appears the money will be used as part of regular funding and as part of implementing the recommendations of Vince Ready.

Vancouver School Board Trustee, Kevin Millsip says this takes away the power of local boards to decide where funding should be directed.

“Obviously that’s frustrating for local school boards,” said Millsip. “Who were probably thinking about the best way to reinvest those dollars to support kids.”
______________________________________________
QUESTION: What is the government going to do with the money it saved by not paying the CUPE workers who supported the teachers?

Very well put Lynn and Thank You

I think the problem is allot of folks and me included sometimes are to close to something to see it clearly and need to re evaluate our tactics. It's very hard to look inward and be honest with ourselves
as to where we went wrong or failed, its much easier to put a positive spin on things and call it a victory.

But anyone who calls this a victory needs a "A check up from the neck up"

We were slammed hard, unions exist because they earned the right to strike, the union movement has accomplished many things threw the right to strike. It is our only real power. In short this government took that power from us and very easily I may add with weak leadership or un organized leadership.

We don't lose them all but God how could we let them win this one.

Lets go over our record report card.

Stopping our government's participation in Iraq = WE WIN
Making the Government back off on Welfare cuts = WE WIN
Stopping the Privatization of Liquor Stores = WE WIN
Stopping the sale of the Coqiuhalla = We WIN
Stopping the sale of BC RAIL = WE LOSE
Stopping the sale of Teresen = still fighting
Stopping the ripping up of contracts = we lose
Stopping BiIl 12 = WE LOSE big time

Notice the battles we won, they not only have union support but vast public support, we must find better ways than the media to get our values out.

You can think of some examples of your own but I think you get my point , we win some and lose some, but when we lose we lose big . So we need to look inward and create a system where we win more often , I'm not
just talking about voting day. Everyday systems.

I think winning comes from 3 things, 1) The determination to win no matter what, set a goal and don't let go or compromise it, the willingness to stand up and fight. Gordo has this in his skin, he has clear goals and
does not waiver, maybe twisted but clear. ( The labor minister slipped during a media interview, he smiled with glee and got all glossy eyed and said well its not unheard off , Bills like Bill 12, almost 40 states in the US have similar laws on the books. ) Don't you see folks, their goal is to roll back rights and benefits gained threw the labor movement over the last 30 yrs, you want to work, your going to work harder for less, much less, you want benefits , your going to beg for them.

2) A plan or roadmap (war room) of actions the unions take, their should be an eternal log of actions that are taken when these things happen, For example Gov does this we respond by doing this, their should be a clear action plan in place on how to confront power. An auto matic system in place, the government needs a short lease, if they know a harsh reaction was coming they maybe more moderate. This way the union movement would not be winging it, or being caught off guard when the pressure came. Gordo has one , it was pure NEO CON art how they went threw this process, all the players in place on the right script, lawyers ready to roll.
3) Be proactive, do things now that are going to serve you in the future, stay ahead of the game and interact with your community.

Sorry Lynn, but you're just spewing out rehashed rhetoric from Coyote and crew.

Coyote's view is anything but new. Yes I can agree with many aspects of his suggestions, but that isn't my issue.

Perhaps you can tell me, because neither he nor (drive-by) Stuart seem at all interested in the fact there appears to have been a concerted effort by some (including Coyote) to sew as much distrust toward the BC Fed as he could in his posts leading up to the end of the fed's official invovlement.

Are you telling me you think it is perfectly credible to knock down your own institutions in the middle of a friggin' flood, to through dirt all over people before they have done anything because that, rather than finding answers, is your real agenda?

Coyote is entitled to propose anything he wants, but does it not seem the least bit opportunistic that he introduces his thesis on labour's new era right in the midst of the one of the most bitter labour disputes in this province.

Or that his preamble to his proposal is essentially a multi-day attack on the BC Fed., which thus comes across as about as peacefully intentioned as G.W.'s opening missile attacks on Iraq?

Hey Lynn, you may know something I don't know about Ready, but in my 25 years in this province, I have yet to meet another person with his ability or credibility to do the job he does.

That he is somehow being painted as part of the problem is simply awe-inspiring and leaves me to question where some of the people you list above have been since 1980.

Yes, the Tyee is a great forum to discuss alternatives to how labour acts today. It's also great that someone takes the time that Coyote did to propose his ideas.

But where I come from, you don't crap all over your comrad, even if you don't like the guy, when he's trying to put out the same fire you claim to worry so much about.

Solidarity, to me, isn't something you set aside for a few minutes during the din, so that you can publicly kick someone between the thighs so as to score points to further another cause.

Stopping the privatation of liquor stores. We win By Stuart No we lose. You may like to talk to a few BCGEU members in Social Services who were sold out by George Heyman as a trade off to keep liquor stores in .

Allen , buddy, We all love Jim, we just don't like his behavior when the going gets tough.
You can't leave 1000's of folks out to dry and not expect a little flack, I know you like
Jim as do I , I was willing to give him the benefited of the doubt on the way he handled
the HEU dispute but this to much, to lose the freedom to refuse your labor is the losing
the only card we have. Sorry but this is his second offense, he speaks well but lacks
the solidarity we need to push forward.

I know criticism upsets you, but we need to evaluate our non performance and how we can make things better, sorry but allot of us are very pissed and are not going to accept this as victory no matter the spin. Being a union member or supporter does not mean putting your brains away and following blindly , as far as the George Bush analogy if more BUSH supporters asked questions and had lively debate and not been followers maybe
things could have been different. They could have still remained republicans and opposed the war.

As far as distrust towards the BC Fed , Jim has earned that distrust on how he handled the HEU issue, we are our deeds and that's it.

P.S I'm afraid to ask what (drive-by) Stuart means, but I have been called worse by better.

Name calling hardly makes your argument stronger.

Cheers

Otro Mundo Es Posible = Another world is Possible

Sorry douge

I stand corrected, we stand alone and stand weak . What a shame

douge, I think you touch on an issue that is anything but over.

Yes, the majority of public liquour stores have remained open, but if anyone thinks Campbell has given up on closing the remainder, I'd like to know what they are drinking.

The government continues to cut the wholesale price of booze to the private stores and allow new stores anywhere someone might make a political donation. In the meantime, hours are being cut back on most public liquor stores and I fully anticipate a major battle brewing when the 'GEU contract for liquour store employees needs renewing.

Anticipate much outside participation by the profiteers of private stores.

I hope this is the last one from me on the the subject of fair criticisim.

Please be assured I am not taking any of this personally, nor have I spun victory out of the dispute. However I do have my own sense of whether any victory can be claimed or not. But be clear, to this point that has not been my intention. People ought to be clear and certain when attributing assertion. Especially when ranting about things as important as integrity.

I will unashamably defend Sinclair in this space though, at least on the points raised.

As I have said before, Jim gets to chair the meetings and his employers, the affiliated unions, get to tell him what to do. They try to reach consensus, where possible.

If those that feel lessons need to be learned through raking workers organizations over the coals, then I suggest you look at my previous posts for clues what to do. But that would be harder than vexatious outrage.

Stuart, now that you have actually responded once I'll drop the "drive-by", which was my effort to get you to actually respond rather than tossing darts from what appeared to be mobile station.

Toss all the criticism you like at me. I'm not a member of any union and have absolutely no direct links to anyone on the fed.

But I won't hold it or its president responsible for what may or may not have happened in a series of meetings, communications and mis-communications that 99 percent of the commenters here have zero real knowledge about.

You seem to have already forgotten that the membership of the BCTF was quite capable of making decisions including the last one, to return to work.

There are always errors made when people step out of the norm, such as into a political protest as the teachers did. Few of us in our working lives ever get to experience that near weightless feeling.

Not happy with the results?

Most of us aren't, but that doesn't mean it was a failure and it certainly doesn't mean, as is too often the case for lefties, that we immediately find a neck to chop so we may all be pure again.

If a mob of hooligans shows up in front of your house with torches and gasoline intent on burning you out, is it a loss, if despite them setting the house on fire, you are able to put it out and turn the spotlight on the vandals to the cheers and support of the majority of the community?

Somedays getting out of bed, to the task and then back home without being knocked down is a major struggle.

But if you can get through the day to come back tomorrow, I think that's a victory, especially when someone had vastly different plans for you.

Well, outside of the fact you are evidencing some paranoia about a "conspiracy" involving myself and others Allan, you are largely being overly defensive, which is as puzzling to me as I seem to appear to you.

First, I consistently acted in support of the strike of teachers. Indeed, while I may have expressed some concern about the leadership of the Fed from the beginning, it was very much as the result of a "historical memory" of 1983, and the role the Fed played in the more recent HEU strike, which had a similar unsatisfactory result to this one of the teacher's, in my view.

And I'm not bound by any rules of "democratic-centralism", which theory of democracy and leadership may indeed be lingering in the hallowed halls of the Fed, as it does ipso facto in the NDP and most other political parties across the spectrum-, whether they acknowledge it or not. So sorry, I was and am, once the strike was underway, much, much more loyal to the success of the strike and those walking it than I am/was to any sensitivites of anybody's notions of leadership and their assumed rights to be free of criticism, and held above reproach.

My experience is, that kind of loyalty is near always, at least, misplaced, and that movements in fact succeed better when they hold their leaderships to account, which means accountable for their action/inaction.

This shut up and do as you are told school of rank and file behaviour, in its relationship with leadership, which you seem to be espousing for, behind the appearance of some kind of new/old "loyalty code", in my view is misplaced and part of the reason the trade union movement finds itself in this dysfunctional place at which it has arrived. It may be the code of the boss carried over into the working class, who apparently must still follow leadership around like compliant sheep, as they do The Boss, and who are presumably used to contenting themselves with doing as they are told, but I sure as hell will not genuflect to it. Sorry. No apology.

In my own personal view, unconnected to any other formal movement, but a Party of one to this point, the time to speak is when things start going wrong, not after its piled up into a wreck, and leadership is going around trying to make it look like that was all part of the plan from the beginning, so we are a rip roaring success. Victory has been dragged from the jaws of defeat, my asss. Again, echoes of 1983 and the HEU strike.

You may feel the need to be protective of leadership from criticism and challenge, and I will certainly not hold it against you. Nor will I cast about attempting to link you to a Fed leadership conspiracy, with which, were I exhibiting as much paranoia as yourself, you are providing much evidence here.

Your attempt to link me so, however, to some kind of cooked up theory of conspiracy , reminiscent of McCarthyisms past, is very much resented, and lowers your esteem in my eyes by half, at a single stroke. Within the lifetime of my own memory, I can recall the uses to which such labelling was previously put, at another time, to descredit and smear an opponent, rather than deal with the legitimacy of their ideas.

You do it to me again, and there will be no need for us to speak to each other again, period.

Ooooo, again fella, rather than address the woman's ideas and views, this age old dismissal of her relevancy at all, and attempt to smear to smear her, as in some way not being her own person. You are a progressive, Allan? Or have you merely been toying with our perceptions of you here? Pathetic.

Somethings going on here, Allan. The fear and hatred with which you are suddenly addressing those of us who disagree with you is palpable. It's hard to believe it is just your own that you are bringing to the table here.

Clearly, "some persons and or groups" are more worried by the democracy that is occurring here than even I had thought. They are trying to shut us up. Next comes driving us out.

(Note however: The Neocons will be left befind untouched if that happens. We are the greater enemy they perceive. Interesting, isn't it?)

I am finding it somewhat disconcerting to see all this in-fighting on this blog. Constructive debate is why were here and thats all I wish to hear. Yes the neo-cons will be the only ones to gain from this, and they are the ones whom we need to fight. Otherwise we have to find grounds on which to communicate in a useful and constructive way. I myself have been in the union movement for the past 25 years both private and public.And damn proud of my affiliation. Presently I am a Stationary Engineer with Van. School Board. and I'm tired of the f**king neo-cons on this board telling me that I don't provide a service with their "hard earned tax dollars"ie Working-Man, Nemesis, Jim etc. I'd like to see any of these neandrathals do my job better than me and with more passion and loyalty to the clients I serve. And this is also how 99% of those within the Board do their job, from teachers to admin. to custodians. As for the union movement and the B.C. Fed. Where we are now and where we go tommorow requires patience. I feel this strike was a victory because I do not think the union movement is in a position by general striking to make any gains,presently.But I do believe the Fibs have been scarred by this strike. By the public the BCTF the courts and the union movement as a whole. Most of us in the public service unions have taken a beating for the past 10 years with no gains financially and plenty of jobs being cut by both the NDP and the Fibs, we all hunger for better negotiated contracts and better working conditions, but I'm afraid we will be a long time waiting for this bunch of corporate groupies to negotiate a contract at all."Shame Shame Shame" if thats the best we can do then I prefer to wait till the next election Thank-You. Bill 12 is definitely a facist law that was created by facists and sure we all are pissed about it. But hey, its not the first time we've had this sort of shite rammed up our collective ass and it won't be the last. So lets be a bit more patient with others views on the movement and be more constructive. We know who the neo-cons are. Can they be re-educated? Doubtful. But the general public are not neo-cons who are but a small faction that should probably find another part of the world to live. But they are a long way from swaying the public to vote again for this lot.Relax, Be Patient.They will all eat thier children.

Sorry, I've had a busy day, just got in and I have a hungry crew awaiting for me to start dinner...they've passed on my suggestion of cooking them up a dish of rehashed rhetoric. I thought I'd disguise it with a wine and herb sauce...but they seem to be on to me. They're mumbling something about roast and potatoes...what is wrong with these people... :-)

There was no insult to Ready implied in this, allan... nor to Sinclair...the questions surround the government on this point, not Mr. Ready...but I see that in the legislature the BC Liberals have got round answering the questions put to them by the Opposition through a time limit legality.

Coyote is in no need of me to defend him but what I read of his comments were observations about the dangers that exist at the precise point of the turning of the tide in the process of negotiation...which proved in fact to be absolutely true.

My question is : Why did Sinclair find it necessary to say anything at all on that Thursday? Everything he said decreased the momentum and left the teachers feeling they would lose public favour if they didn't return to work...as he seemed to imply all would be settled soon...that it was somehow already over.

Between this and the weak recommendations by Ready, everything became distracted from Bill 12 which was the real battle to win and the one on which all supporters were onside. The Scottish parliament even linking this to a proposed snub of the Olympics. Now what better fodder to hit Campbell with than the suggestion that his beloved Olympics would be derailed if Bill 12 wasn't addressed and repealed. There was still lots of pressure that could have been exerted and it wasn't.

Frank wrote some of the best pieces in this regard...on not retreating from your set goals... that once you've committed to the battle, you forge on. After all it was the courage of the teachers that was drawing the overwhelming support...it was that very same courage that was drawing in the national and international community as well...enlarging the scope of this struggle in our favour.

I don't think many of us are calling this a failure, there are just those of us that don't consider it a win. For me, Bill 12 was the issue, how can you bargain for improved learning conditions when this offically ends the bargaining process?

I understand your criticism surrounding loyalty, allan, but one is also entitled to weigh that loyalty against an honest appraisal of what one feels is the truth of the matter... as one is allowed to question whether loyalty itself to an outmoded and flawed plan of defense has actually become a hindrance to winning the battle...perhaps a hindrance to survival.

Lynn: "Between this and the weak recommendations by Ready, everything became distracted from Bill 12 which was the real battle to win and the one on which all supporters were onside".

Well finally, someone is actually coming out and saying that this was about bill 12. We were all told it was about the kid's, but all along it was that the teachers just didn't want to do what they were told.

lynn: "For me, Bill 12 was the issue, how can you bargain for improved learning conditions when this offically ends the bargaining process?"

This only ended thebarganing because Jinny Sims in fact made bill 12 the issue, instead of the collective agreement being the issue.

If ever any teachers want to know why they were/are losing support, one needs to look no further than comments like these.

Thank's for holding my kid hostage while you teachers pulled a hissy fit when being told to do your job.

micky, micky...how you neo-cons love these silly games.

Bill 12 is about the right to bargain...for kids...for teachers...for all. Get it? Or is this all just too much for you to take in at once. It' the basic old cart/horse thing...I know.... pretty complicated stuff.

I want to make perfectly clear, in my best Nixon impression, that though no personal insult was aimed at Sinclair, he is certainly not above question or criticism and is ultimately accountable for the end result, (no matter whether he is a nice guy or not). That is part of leadership as well.

Micky, the teachers didn't invent Bill 12, the gov't did. Blame them.

In my opinion teachers should be on strike for the rest of the year and beyond, until that bill is rescinded.

When the gov't does that it can also start negotiating learning conditions, working conditions and pay.

It won't do any such thing of course so I would hope the teachers only return long enough to collect a few cheques and then go out again.

"This only ended thebarganing because Jinny Sims in fact made bill 12 the issue, instead of the collective agreement being the issue."

Huh? There was no bargaining going on. There was no collective agreement, the old one was imposed and then re-imposed. Your argument has no factual basis.

"If ever any teachers want to know why they were/are losing support, one needs to look no further than comments like these. "

They didn't lose support. You have no point.

sorry, but just had to laugh when i heard shirley bond saying that the memo they sent regarding our salaries was just a "guideline" - what a joke! she is truly pathetic and has absolutely no credibility at all with anyone right now - ha!

commentor: PeteLposted: 21 Hours Ago
Rick, were you in the repective boardrooms where this sellout is alleged to have occurred? Have you spoken with anyone who was?

Honestly, you have to go back and study federation 101 again. Cuz you are just spouting off and do not know anything about federation governance structure.

On previous threads and maybe this one too, I have tried to explain how trade unions fit into various federations and how they work, the nuances etc. But I'm not going to write all that again just because your nose is right outta joint.

If your a member of a union, ring your President and ask what he or she did on behalf of the teachers. What positions did they take in the boardroom? Your little ditty was trite and not helpful. And I bet you wouldn't say that to anyones face but you think you can pull that shite on the anonomous internet.

You obviously have loads of misguided talent. Put it to good use.

-----------------------------------------------

What's misguided my friend is your insistance that the boardroom is paramount to the "rank and file" I will take lessons from the likes of Barry O'Neill because he LED the rank and file. Hey Pete, my pres. was with O'Neill after Sinclair's "jam tart" performance, why don't you ring any union leader besides Heyman and get tuned in to what is actually going on.

Your elitist posts are getting tired, you like to repeat "read my posts" alot and that you are doing the Tyee a favor?
you poor bastard, your dillusional, I didn't have to ring my president, my president rang me and some pissed off! Do you know what solidarity is Pete? It's not a boardroom thing, it's getting your hands dirty, hard work, you know? Not dropping a ball before the endzone, any of this sinking in? Lynn made a couple of good points, you can pretend for only so long, continually spouting "it's not that bad" has a shelf life, contract language in this province is being set back decades.

Your philosaphy is exactly what is screwing workers, the rank and file have immense power and a leader can harness that for the "good of all" or use it for personal gain (see: Sinclar) Hey is that Jim with that Haggard guy?

does anyone have any insight into the upcoming battle that ms. james will face at the ndp convention? i'm hearing that she doesn't have a chance knocking the big unions down a peg. anyone else?

lynn says: ...how you neo-cons love these silly games.

Why is it Lynn, that anyone who dosen't support the teachers' cause is labeled a neo-con? Is Jim Sinclair a neo-con? How about Carol James, is she a neo-con?

You people are too quick to shut off your mind's and write every one's opinion off as some crazy right wing philosophy. Cant you even be mature enough to look at the merits of a post and try to understand. Obviously thing's turned bad for you people, yet you all insist you won and if you didn't then everyone else is to blame. "He's a trader", or "he's a neo-con" - bullshit, why dont you convert all your energy into a solution for your cause - whatever that is.

Frank: Your pigheaded! You really are, you sound like a grumpy old man. Your so intent on the the union taking control of the province, that you would sacrifice all our kid's, thank god you have no power.

Now, there's no argueing the fact that teachers lost support, anyone who thinks different, didn't pay attention to Sinclair or the parents; Yes, some silly pole indicated that parents were on board, but that started to unravell when people found out how much teachers made and when Jinny was dissed by the BCFeds and Ready. The parents are much wiser now and more vocal too.

Wether bill 12 was in place or not should have absolutly no bearing on if the BCTF sits and talk's or not, in fact had they done that, they might have been able to negotiate it away or at least have it modified.

Bill 12 is not about the right to negotiate for kid's, that's an excuse. I heard a teacher today tell thier friend "why should we negotiate in summer, we cant strike then". It's all a game and you people are no more innocent than the govt. who did this in direct response to the BCTF who spacifically chose the worst time for the students to strike.

And now, by the way everyone know's that the kid's interest's are way down below that of bill 12, money, teachers status in society and the idea of removing special needs.

P.S - If any of you educators ever read Sun Tzu - The Art Of War, you would realize that Ms. Sims made every mistake possible in this endeavor and for lack of a better word "LOST".

" that anyone who dosen't support the teachers' cause is labeled a neo-con"

"Your pigheaded! You really are"

Micky, word of advice, it undermines your credibility and makes your "outrage" appear manufactured when you engage in name-calling in the same message you complain about being called a "neo-con".

"Now, there's no argueing the fact that teachers lost support, anyone who thinks different, didn't pay attention to Sinclair or the parents"

Really? Sinclair is now the weather-vane of popular sentiment in the province is he? Strange because very little polling was done but from what I saw the teacher support actually increased after they went on strike. If you have another poll, the caller ratio on Bill Good doesn't count, then provide a link. I can only go by the facts we have.

"Wether bill 12 was in place or not should have absolutly no bearing on if the BCTF sits and talk's or not, in fact had they done that, they might have been able to negotiate it away or at least have it modified."

You keep repeating this over and over like some sort of chant. Who were the teachers going to negotiate with?!? The gov't refused to talk about pay or working conditions. All they did was pass a law that took away the teachers right to strike. Bill 12 may mean nothing to you but its an obvious attempt to break unions because it takes away the only weapon they have when they're unable to negotiate.

"Bill 12 is not about the right to negotiate for kid's, that's an excus"

An excuse for what Micky? Bill 12 took away teachers right to strike so that they were unable to force the gov't to negotiate after the gov't had refused since the time they imposed the last contract.

You are conveniently forgetting that the strike vote was taken by the BCTF before there was a Bill 12. Why would they fo that if it wasn't about the gov't refusing to negotiate pay and working conditions?

"It's all a game and you people are no more innocent than the govt. who did this in direct response to the BCTF who spacifically chose the worst time for the students to strike."

So you think summer is a good time to strike? Why didn't the gov't consider that a good time to negotiate? Or any of the summers previous?

"and for lack of a better word "LOST"."

Finally we agree on something. The union was unwilling to fight for the right to strike, better pay and better conditions in the classroom. But somehow I don't think you would have supported them if they had.

Micky, the moment any of you stop reciting neo-con bible verses we'll stop labelling it as such. Otherwise, it's the same-old, same-old.

Frank, if you feel like using the quote function, highlight what you want quoted and then at the top right hand of the small window you are typing in click on the script icon beside the u enter and then write what you want.

Coyote, I am not accusing you of participation in a conspiracy, but I have certainly raised concerns about your apparent campaign to dump all over the fed and you now appear hesitant to even discuss those concerns except as personal attacks on your integrity.

You may well be a "party of one" as you state, but you are an active party of one who took it upon yourself to go for the guzzler, as they say, in your (I think) over the top attack on the fed.

Yes, I realize you couched it in supportive posts for the teachers, but as I have stated before, you came into these threads with a very clear agenda of attacking the BC Fed as a pack of incompetents who dance to their corporate masters' music or in words expressing that very sentiment.

Excuse me if I am over-reacting here Coyote, but I find it a bit hard to swallow that you weren't attempting to influence thinking with those unsubtle digs or that you didn't realize others might use your words as further reason to keep kicking the teachers.

Frankly, I find the timing of those digs to look like cheap shots aimed at causing maximum damage.

What is a person to think?

Coyote, ignore me if you want, but it won't end my questioning of why you timed your attack on the fed so interestingly.

Hey your free to write what ever you want, no one, at least me, is going to demand you stop.

All I ask is that you clarify what certainly looked very much like a campaign to attack the fed just as it was gearing up to assist the teachers.

Lynn, you may have found much wisdom in Coyote's proposals. I am writing about the campaign I feel he launched against the BC Fed about the time he returned to Tyee about a month ago just as the BCTF dispute went ballistic.

It seems rather odd to me that someone who claims to have his pedigree on the left would not realize he was feeding and forwarding the neo-con agenda.

I don't suggest he is a neo-con, but I do think it served the neo-con game well to piss all over the fed at that time.

Here's the formula: Spew verbal excrement all over someone and then paint unrealistic expectations of what that someone should do. When that someone doesn't attain the heights demanded, stand up and yell, "see, just like I told you."

It certainly is attention getting. It still has mine.

Elliot, perhaps if you could elaborate from where or from whom you are "hearing" all these things some of us might be able to better respond.

BTW, have you heard anything about people trying to start rumours that Carole James is going to have a tough time dealing with unions in the upcoming NDP convention?

Well, you know how those things get started, eh?

micky, ditto to redrivergirl's comment. It is by your logic or lack of it that we know ye...

Bill 12 is a fascist bill.....oooo don't say fascist. If you don't understand that now, don't worry, if Bill 12 is allowed to stand, sooner or later you will understand what this government has set in motion... you will feel the fullness of its threatening grip when it reaches your own doorstep.... or in the anger of retaliation by those tired of being imposed upon.

Issac Newton's Third Law of Motion:

"...that for every action (force) there is an equal and opposite reaction."

All actions are "forces," so this undisputable law says every force has an equal and opposite force. For every action, there is a reaction. For every behavior, there is a consequence. Like the rock thrown into the pond, the ripples radiate out, eventually hitting the shore, and then again returning to its center. For every act, a consequence."

Frank: I dont have time right now to explain what is painfuuly obvious right now, however I will return when i have more time.

Anyway, for those of you who want to believe this is all about class size and composition, I was reading in the BCTF web site and came across the meetings held between the BCTF and the BCPSEA. Here is what I found:

Out of 18 meetings, class size and composition were mentioned only twice, and one of those mentions was used as a bargaining tool for a raise.

Every meeting consisted of at least 6 element's of pay increase. The BCTF actually want more sick day's and more Pro-D day's, they want better pensions and they want the pay grid to be quicker to climb, they also want more pay for call-in's and TOC's.

In the final meeting before summer, the BCTF put forward 8 points of discussion, that were all based on salary increases for teachers with not so much as a mention to class size and composition.

Therefore, it is not hard to believe that class size is merely a manipulation tool to gain support from parents and the general public.

Again, I'm quoting directly from the BCTF web site.

You are excused, of course, except you continue to "over-react".

Though indeed, whilst mostly wanting to explain the bargaining process and how it works to those who might not be familiar with it, I certainly did want to influence the conduct of the Fed leadership, no doubt. As it turned out, to little avail, it would seem.

For which I make no apology, nor see why it would even seem to be expected. I have my view of the labour bureaucracy and the role it tends to play in these things, formed from years of observation of it, and see no reason to restrain myself from expressing it.

What seems to annoy you is that the result I predicted early was exactly what came to pass.

Which had to do with some experience and consequent understanding of the predictability attached to these things, the classic behaviours of leaders, certainly labour leaders of the business union school, and the led-, and some luck, and maybe an ever so tiny bit of prescient instinct.

Again, I see no need to apologize for that. Apparently only you do here, with your excessive concern, I think, for the sensitivities of the labour bureaucracy. If one can't stand the heat of the kitchen, one should not venture there, is my view of that.

I'm but a wee fish in a very large pond, and a bit taken aback that you, and perhaps they through you, I don't know, put such an obvious large stock in what I say at all.

I assumed and assume that folks here are all entitled to the freedom of their views-, myself as much as yourself.

"Feeding and forwarding the neocon agenda..." Whoooo! About as over the top as one can get, and utter hysterical b.s.

Lynn deserves an apolgy from you, though I suspect that it is outside your ability to reason with right now.

As for me, I have nothing further I wish to say to you. For now at least, we will have to agree to disagree.

Vancouver teachers face one-time pay hit
Last updated Oct 28 2005 09:05 AM PDT
CBC News

The Vancouver School Board says the change of heart in the education ministry that now allows school board to dock teachers pay over a period of weeks, came too late.

Earlier in the week, a memo went out from the deputy minister, telling districts they were expected to dock teachers pay this month for their two-week illegal strike.

LINK: Deputy minister's memo (.pdf)(76KB)

http://www.cbc.ca/bc/news/school_board_letter.pdf

On Thursday, Education Minister Shirley Bond backtracked – saying it would be up school boards to decide how to deduct 10 days pay.

But Vancouver school trustee Kevin Milsip says that news comes too late, because the board had already acted on the memo and docked teachers' pay immediately.

"We had made a decision as a board not to take the deductions out over time, based on the directive we had from the ministry," he says.

"The ministry of education these days is feeling more like the ministry of miscommunication and unclear directives."

Vancouver teacher Ailsa Craig says she doesn't blame the Vancouver school board. But she has praise for the school boards that ignored the government directive.

"The fact that trustees across the province have decided not to do what they were told to do because they recognize that is going to damage their relationship with the teachers, is a really positive step."

Craig says although the pay hit will hurt, teachers knew there would be a penalty for standing up for their beliefs, and striking illegally.
______________________________________________
THE PROVINCE
Friday
October 28, 2005
Page a01 / front

"It's a decision that school boards will make," Bond said. "We didn't insist. We simply laid out the process we expected school boards to consider."
______________________________________________
QUOTE:LETTER TO SCHOOL BOARDS FROM THE MINISTRY OF EDUCATION.(Oct 25, 2005)

4. It is the expectation that all payroll adjustments will be made on the October payroll statements. Districts will be required to provide monthly reports that will show district patterns of payroll expenditure.
______________________________________________
The next time that Gordon Campbell selects an education minister, he should select someone who actually has a university education. Put her back in her box.

Yes Lynn, bill 12 is not a good thing, I get it! I alway's have. I didn't like the "war measures act" either. I do realize that, as you say "every action has an opposite and equal reaction".

Bill 12 was a knee jerk reaction from the govt. in direct response to the BCTF threatning strike action. This is also fact.

Where I take issue is that, Mr. Campbell made his point by saying "you cant strike and the BCTF made thier point by ignoring the bill and striking anyway. Fair enough, everyone is now paying full attention. It's what happens next is the problem. Mr.Campbell said O.K let's talk, but by this time Jinny had lost sight of the bargaining issue and refused to talk. Bill 12 became the base for all this crap and the C/A and the kid's became secondary at best.
That's my objection.

Micky says----

Gee if I recollect I think it was Mike De Dumb that got all wrapped up in Bill 12 and refused to negotiate.Where do you dream up your information.Talk about people losing sight.

Mr. Campbell was all over the TV more than once asking the BCTF to negotiate. Did you miss those 2 press conferences?

That happened at the end of week one of the strike. If you like I'll find a link to that press conferance.

Okee dokee

You looked at the BCTF website to find out what they were asking for, fine, do you agree or disagree with what they wanted?

In contrast the gov't position was nothing, no change from the last imposed contract which teachers didn't like then and still haven't warmed to.

And yet Campbell did not rescind the bill that started the strike. You'd think that would be the least he could do since it doesn't cost him a dime. But no, he wants to hold it over the heads of teachers, and by extension other unions. That remains the centrepiece of his position, that any public sector union that goes on strike will be criminals and he will use the force of law to bankrupt their union and force them to accept imposed contracts.

Nor has Campbell negotiated classroom conditions since the strike ended. Nor has new money been put on the table.

Until Campbell does something concrete, anything to show he believes in fair negotiating, the teachers should refuse to work another day for his government.

micky,

yep, gordon wanted to talk - after we stopped our illegal action - not quite the same thing. jinny said, right from the start she was available 24/7 and wanted to negotiate - no conditions. big difference!

Mickey---

I dare say I think Mr. Campbull meant "let shoot the s**t, and f**k negotiations". We've already imposed a contract so run along now and behave like the rest of the PS unions.

The way I see it:

If the teachers want to negotiate for kid's, good on ya, I'm in full support.

If the teachers want to fight Bill 12, good on ya, I'm here for you, but leave my kid out of it.

If the teachers want more money, well, thier on thier own as far as I'm concerned.

The teachers have to decide where the fight is before I make my decision about supporting them.

Micky, "Negotiation"? What negotiation? This government has no integrity when it comes to bargaining in good faith.

Since the government completely refused to even discuss the issues of class size/composition and salary increase, perhaps, you could give us a detailed list of what exactly the Campbell government was willing to negotiate on. Be precise now. Let's hear it.

lynn say's: "perhaps, you could give us a detailed list of what exactly the Campbell government was willing to negotiate on. Be precise now. Let's hear it".

No, I cant give any examples of negotiation issue's; which is exactly my point, no one know's.

However, by reading the detail's from the BCTF site, I can deduce that this class size and composition issue didn't become prominent until the teachers decided to give strike notice.

From where was he all over tv, Micky? Toronto? He wasnt' even in the province for the first week. When he did return he hid behind De Jong and when he did speak it was to tell the teachers to obey the law. Basically, or else.

micky,

obviously, you have no inside information, and not being a teacher, i guess i can forgive that, but come on! i can tell you that from day one our goals for a new contract were 1. class size 2. class composition 3. a reasonable wage increase - in that order! all you have to do is look back over the previous 10 years to see that teachers have continually given up salary increases in order to bargain for better learning conditions for our students, which translate into better working conditons for us and a better education system overall. do you actually know any teachers? if so, ask them. if not, maybe you should go to your local school and talk to some "real" teachers - ask them what their teaching life is like now as compared to before the liberals got into power and really started screwing up the system. bc has one of the BEST education systems in the world, but that certainly is not going to last for long with good teachers retiring early to escape the liberals and good young teachers leaving for alberta and ontario where at least they are paid for their job. i'm sick of people going on about wages. i have a 5 year degree with another one on top of that. it took a long time to get my education and i'm proud of the work i do, and yes, i think i should be paid a good wage for what i do. how many people would like to hang out with 28 10 year olds for 6 hours every day and try to actually get them to learn - believe me, its not easy, but its what i do and what i love.

First off redrivergirl: Do you want me to get exact dates of these issue's because I can do that. You are always picking the most innane points to argue. Always backed up by your paranoia, from watching US politics on the TV.

Spunky: No I certainly dont have inside information, do you? The information I have is what everybody can find out on the BCTF web site. I absolutely stand by my above posting, and believe what I have read on you're own web site.

Do you actually believe what you just said, even though the BCTF site agrees with my statement's? Maybe that's what you personally are after - and good on ya if so.

P.S - I do enjoy the fact that you quoted the union line word for word to a tee though.

P.P.S - When exactly did teacher's give up raises? Was it when the NDP legislated you all to work 4 times through the 90's? Was it when the NDP had little hope of winning the election and threw raises to most every union in hopes to buy votes? Please refresh my memory.

Spunky:

I must also point out that this terrible Liberal govt. you speak of has put more money into the school board's by percentages than that of your NDP.

Class sizes in BC are among the lowest in Canada. Especially K-3.

And your right, BC schools are turning out some of the brightest young people in the world, even though we have a Liberal govt. - Imagine that.

P.S - I heard a University teacher the other day say "big classes will help better prepare the students for college and university". I was actually a little suprised to hear that, but maybe it makes some sense.

Holy - Are you still arguing with Micky after a week like this one?

Class sizes are not among the lowest in Canada, Micky. Not even in K-3. Class sizes come and go depending on who is in government right across government. B.C. almost held the cap that teachers won for them when the contract was torn up in 2002: they added 1 or 2 to each grade level in primary. Watch your numbers there Mick. There's a hundred way to count averages. What you need to do is walk into a classroom, count the bodies, modify the programs for each Individual Education Program, evaluate fairly, judge wisely, and deal with your kids as individual learners. If you're not trained to do that, not willing to upgrade your training on a daily basis, and not experienced, don't speak for teachers and I won't speak for you.

I don't care if Micky or anyone else chooses to believe that teachers were in it for the money. Only someone completely tuned out with classroom realities could say so. And only someone with another agenda could claim I broke a law for a pay increase. I know where the public stands. I get thanked for my stand everyday since I took one. And I ain't done yet.

The day that teachers really do fight this battle for the money, the way that Washington teachers once did, maybe Micky will get out on the streets and scream for the kids the way the teachers did. Had we fought for money over the past decades when we traded salary for every friggin' improvement you've ever seen to schools and classrooms and services to children, your kids would have 100 classmates, no support, and we wouldn't give a shit whether they progressed or not. That would be your worry. No government has ever given us anything. We fought for every improvement to public schooling in this province for just a little under a hundred years now - and we traded improvements to our own salary and/or benefits for each step forward.

Be a brave man and live up to your convictions, Micky. Get your kids out of the public system before teachers get tired and quit fighting your battles for you. Plenty of private schools around, more subsidized by the minute.

Meanwhile, to the rest of you who did fight, thanks again, eh?

cuinn

thanks for the reply. micky, you are just what you seem, so i won't bother - get a life

There seems to be an interesting state of affairs. In the fomer legislature there were two NDP members who managed to hold this government to task. This time however after what seemed like a brief love in our oppostion at best is providing meek at best opposition. WIth a few notable exeptions so far they get an F in my books. WIth the scope of issues perhaps its time to beging to perform a bit

cuinn said, " Are you still arguing with Micky after a week like this one?"

Well yes we are. Let me give you an example. Suppose 75 students in a secondary school want to take Chemistry 12. With class sizes at 30, that would mean 2 classes, each of 30. What happens to the other 15? They are put on a waiting list and hope other students drop the course. Before the 2002 contract was imposed, all students would have been funded and there would have been 3 classes of 25. The students would have been given a chance to persue their goals and aspirations. The BC Liberals have removed those options due to their restrictive budgeting options and class size limitations. You may ask, how is this affected by class size? Since Chem 12 is an optional course (i.e. not every student must take it,) the the prescribed courses are filled first to the maximium. The optional courses are then left to be filled according to the budget alloted by the per student rate. Since there is not enough money for the school to operate wrt the per capita grant (even though the BC Libs say it increased,) the extra courses that were offered pre 2002 are cut. The BC Liberals say they have increased the per student grant, but then they changed it ot a block formula. So if a student takes only 7 out of 8 courses (which grades 12's do,) the school gets only 7/8 of the per student funding. The Ministry says it has increased the Ministry of Education budget. Well is the money, it is not in the classes for the students and it has not gone to teachers' salarys. So where is it? At Muzzle Camp for S. Bond?

Can Mick read? If someone says, "We can't talk about that", what should be done next? Go to the government. And when government says no? Go to the public.

Did that. Been there. The public says I'm right.

Follow through on your convictions, Mick. Get your kids out of public school. I don't have time to deal with you "special interest groups" such as yourself.

Make your choice and live with it.

In BC solidarity is spelled s-h-a-m

by Stan Hister

They need to rewrite the old union anthem. Instead of Solidarity Forever it should be “Solidarity for two weeks.” While this may not be as catchy, it's a whole lot closer to the truth, as the BC teachers have recently found out.

The sellout of strikes is such a familiar pattern in what passes for unionism in the 21st century that the exercise almost seems scripted from beginning to end.

First, the union leaders let the peons walk the line for a few days or weeks, which is good for letting off steam and softening up bank accounts. Then the bureaucrats stage noisy “solidarity” rallies where they get to “talk tough” (which also makes for great photo-ops to boost an eventual political career either with the provincial NDP or the Liberals in Ottawa).

And finally, as the clock ticks down to the end of that second week, they concede virtually everything to the government, proclaim that the union has won a “victory” or “made its point,” browbeat the members into voting to surrender on pain of being totally isolated and then send them back to work with a breezy, “We can all hold our heads high.”

To anyone who went through the Ontario teachers' strike of 1997, what happened in BC was déjÃ* vu all over again. But it has to be said that Jim Sinclair and the folks at the BC Federation of Labour seem to have a special knack for this sort of thing — i.e. hanging public sector workers out to dry — as they did with the ferry workers two years ago and, more shamefully still, the hospital workers last year.

(It's one of those little things that says a lot about somebody that the decision to sell out the hospital workers was taken by Sinclair and his executive while they were attending the Vancouver labour council May Day dinner last year — an evening that no doubt ended with a rousing chorus of Solidarity Forever.)

Without Sinclair and his counterpart in the BC NDP, Carole James, god knows what might have happened: strikes could have gone on for more than a few weeks and they might even have escalated into a general strike, imperiling the existence of the much-loved government of Gordon Campbell. Perish the thought! Thank god we have responsible union and NDP leaders as the last line of defense against social justice — oops, sorry, make that the last line of defense against social anarchy.

As soon as mediator Vince Ready did his usual abracadabra and came up with recommendations for a settlement that gave the teachers virtually nothing, the BC Fed started ramming the deal down the teachers' throats. That in the end the teachers went along with this isn't surprising; their vote to return to work was a measure of frustration and despair rather than approval. Having been sandbagged by the BC Fed, financially hammered by the courts and without any alternative coming from their own union, the BCTF, there was nowhere for teachers to go except back into the sardine can.

Meanwhile the winner is gloating. Campbell crowed to the media that the deal wouldn't cost his government a red cent: on class sizes there is nothing except an empty verbal promise for “consultation” and whatever wage and budget improvements there are will be paid for out of the money the government has saved on salaries during the strike.

Nothing will change until a new spirit animates the labour movement. If you go back to the '20s and '30s, the pioneers who built the unions weren't bureaucrats like Sinclair but radicals and socialists who saw worker militancy as the spearhead of the fight for social justice. It's that sort of spirit that needs to reemerge out of the wreckage of today's “business unionism.”

Stan Hister writes from Toronto.

Why is everyone down on me? I haven't said anything derogative against anyone except Jinny Sims. I have merely pointed out that perhaps none of us know exactly what went wrong, but something did.

I said I would fully support certain issues, while others, unfortunatly, I can not. I'm not ready to lynch Jim Sinclair because he obviously has reason's for what he did that we are not privy. If I were in the BCTF, that would be my biggest concern. Then I would look at Jinny Sims' role through all this. That is where the answers are. Nothing can be gained by trashing everyone who is considered a traitor.

I have suggested only that you people open up your eyes to all the possibilities, because even the teachers may not have all the information.

"The reason deception is valued in military operations is not just for decieving enemies, but to begin with decieving one's own troops, to get them to follow unknowingly."

"Those who like to fight and so exhaust thier military inevitably perish."

Sun Tzu

allan; why would i want to start rumours about the NDP convention, of all things? i've heard through the political grapevine that she will probably be badly defeated in her bid to bring down the unions a peg. we'll see. should be interesting. if she loses and the party doesn't distance itself from the big boys they will be easy to campaign against once again. especially just before the 2010 olympics.

"The reason deception is valued in goverment operations is not just for decieving enemies, but to begin with decieving one's own public, to get them to follow unknowingly." I think Gordo blew the lesson

asks the repentant Micky.

Because you haven't made your choice. Get your kids out of public school or hit the streets. This is no time to ignore facts such as North of Hope and hundreds of other have provided you with. Get on with it or get out.

We teachers have spoken as loud as we were able at this juncture.

Amongst the policicians and wannabees is the belief that the general public has the attention span of a infant. Generally I have to agree it's true. However in this case I think they are wrong.

The vast majority of the public supports the concerns of the teachers. Why? In every family is someone's kids somewhere voters are much more aware than the Libs acknowledge.

They saw this gov't beam over not putting money back into the CLASSROOMS of our schools.Kind of insulting, really. If they don't see/hear the teachers announcing that there's marked improvements (don't expect them to take MSM or gov't too seriously without BCTF back up) they are going to see that as hurting their kids....somebody earlier stated that our schools are still turning out well educated graduates, this maybe true but is not a good defence of the Libs slash and burn stewardship of education. These students still got the "bulk" of their education in the NDP era the true measure of the effects of the Libs is yet to come.

Yeah. This article works for me. :-)

No. I did not write it under another name. :-)

It is coincidental but telling, like I've said here before, that there are those out there coming to similar conclusions like this. A phenomena which the research of Robbins "tends" to point to sometimes, in my read of the evidence.

Change in people's thinking and where they are choosing to place their "loyalties", and the way in which they are looking at current stataus quo society, is blowing on the winds.

There is always a danger of over-stating the importance of things, of course, but there is also a danger, especially for those who would aspire to leadership, often flawed, and not infrequently self-serving individuals anyway :-), of being left behind when the winds of change start to blow.

Thanks for the article Rick.

Yeah. Scripted is precisely the word.

Coyote, cry me a river. Has anyone said you shouldn't state whatever you want.

I certainly didn't. What can I say. You split from Tyee several months ago in a huff because someone thought your posts were too long.

Suddenly you are back and your enemy is the BCFed, which you proceed to tell anyone willing to read all the way through that they are a bunch of no-good SOBs who will sell out everyone.

Then when trouble hits in the tenuous battle to find solutions, you, completely void of any real understanding of what takes place in bargaining or any real specifics of this event, conclude the fed sold the teachers out "just as I predicted.'

Coyote, the only thing you predicted is that you would end up blaming the Fed for everything.

Not surprisingly that was the tone of your message in the weeks leading up to the final showdown.

No calm, measured analysis, just plain vindictiveness in an effort to prove your tired point.

Labour needs changes? Well wake me up Coyote. Why hasn't anyone else picked up on such wisdom.

Frankly, it has the ring of someone working to influence and undermine the continuing power of organized labour in BC.

I realize there are quite an assortment of people who think labour ought to be turfed from mainstream politics. I refer to them as capitalists in denial, who beleive they will survive because they have personal wealth rather than having to worry about paying bills.

Now, if I owe anyone an apology it certainly won't be you to determine that. However, one does get the impression you are looking to shore up your group of revolutionaries with your public displays of hurt.

You bet we disagree.

:-) Which sums it up.

More than that, I'll leave it with folks to draw their own conclusions from here on.

Micky, most of us 'get' that Mr Campbell and his fellow, 'stay the course', 'stick to the plan' cohorts are ideologically the same bunch as those in the White House. It's no longer a secret.

Some might call the ones in Victoria minions of the latter.
In any event, the Sun reported on three separate occassions, that Mr Campbell went to the US to meet with Mr Cheney. These were just little one line items. I wonder what they talked about? Mr Campbell doesn't make his schedule available for public scrutiny, unlike all former premiers. Perhaps he has met with him/they even more than three times. So, what are we to think? They were discussing the weather?

"The Political Education of the BC Teachers and Their Leader Ginny Sims" by Robin Mathews:

http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20051025215856446

Seems reasonable to assume. :-)

Though he might have gone there to criticize US policy in Iraq and the Middle East. Mayhaps even to express his concern with US law enforcement, security and intelligence operations within Canada.

Sounds like a strong possibility to me. :-D LOL. He has certainly demonstrated that he is a strong supporter of Canadian independence, no doubt. I mean, look at the strong positions he's taken on the US decision to ignore NAFTA and to retain the fruits of its lumber tarriff thievery, to the tune of some billions of dollars.

He might well have said to Cheney... Indeed, I can even hear him. ..."With friends and trading partners like you folks, who needs bloody enemies?"

Yeah, I can hear Campbell saying that.

A must read, in my opinion. Though one or two voices here might object. :-)

Many stories from inside this strike, coming from many different ideological directions, such as Vaughn Palmer even, quoted in this article, are just beginning to be told and known. We need to pay attention to all of them.

June will soon be upon us, and there will be those who will expect us all to dance to the same classical music of betrayal, and unrequieted solidarity.

Oh Coyote, how could I have misunderstood them so! :-)

Interesting article, Lynn.

ms. james disappeared b/c she doesn't really know where she stands. should be a very interesting convention when she faces off with mr. sinclair.

I hope so, Elliot. Those of you who attend this convention of the Fed must report to us, what you see and hear there, and your views of it. I know that I would certainly be most interested, not being a delegate myself. (Retirement has its advantages, but a a tendency to become isolated some, from some aspects of social intercourse.)

Normally, of a Friday or Saturday evening, I am inclined to sip a little whiskey. This evening however, while Mrs Coyote cooks my supper, I'm of a reflective and contemplative mood for a glass of sherry.

(Tommorow, it is my turn to cook again. It is, I think, cabbage rolls kind of weather. The groceries for which I got in today. Come late fall, I think of curry stews, cabbage rolls and hearty homemade soups.)

Elliot, you vindictiveness is now front and centre.

Of course you weren't spewing rumour in your post the other day, you were simply passing it on, right?

Hey, just to clarify, perhaps you might quote and identify some of your sources, you know so that we will know if they or even you "know where you stand."

It would appear you've taken up the Coyote method of making a point. First raise the specture of failure, accuse your target of cowardism, or better, plain stupidity and then predict disaster, of course, to be blamed on Ms. James.

I'd sure like to know what your vested interest is here. Unfortunately I suspect you don't really want to disclose that.

If you are a delegate to that convention I certainly hope you at least have the integrety to stand up there, identify yourself and then toss your shallow rhetoric out so that more then just we Tyee readers get to benefit from your wisdom.

Sorry Peter, but somehow I missed this article of yours, and I really regret that because it is of some considerable relevance and importance. (Unlike some over the top criticism of myself here.)

But briefly, as this thread is likely to disappear here very quickly, no doubt there is a need for a practical and supportable strategy and tactical development by leadership of the trade union movement. Nor do I delude myself into thinking that the working class is immediately ready to "overthrow" capitalist society, nor do I actually advocate that if you pay careful attention to what I actually say. Though I do think they are ready to "begin" to "transform" it, in a considered and measured way. (Which may lead to other developments. :-)

And certainly, like I have said before, there is ample evidence going back to the time of the Kerkhoff dispute, on whether union construction workers should or should not work alongside non-union, that the rank and file, and indeed the majority working class citizens of the province have been way ahead of "business unionism" eadership of the trade union movement, in their preparedness to seriously engage "the system" over the major issues since the late '70s.

Whether we are talking the Kerkhoff dispute, Operation Solidarity, the HEU strike, or the most recent Teachers strike, the union membership and "the public" at large, have demonstrated time and time again that they are prepared to "engage" ruling class and State power. The failure of courage and committment in each of these instances, if you in fact cast your mind back, was not of workers "unwillingness" or "failure of courage", but that of the leaderships/, everytime. In every single instance. At the last moment, when the battle was ready to be fought and everyone was up to go, it was the leadership that faltered, betrayed the majority will, cut hasty deals, declared victory and ordered everyone back to work.

Now, it is that reality and fact which, more than anything, has had a disheartening and dis-spiriting effect on the working class, and the public that saw common cause with it. It is that failure of leadership will and courage which has facilitated the long decline of the trade union movement and soured the public support. How could it otherwise?

Who the frig needs unions to negotiate retreats and rollbacks? Folks can do that for themselves individually, without the hassle and cost of unions.

The problem is not with my "radical" analysis or that of any impugned failure of working class will, but in the direction which I would point. (They may be good guys, even great to sit around and sip a litre of the finest with and philosophize, but the problem is, the good times brought them to a policy and habit of deal making (it was easy in the earlier Prosperity Time) and looking good for themselves and their labour careers-, which practices they are not yet prepared to break with, in the interests of the entire class and community movement.

In summary of the historical and practical evidence, the problem is not with the rank and file so much, though they may need to be brought along some by principled and skilled leadership, but with the shortsightedness and failure of that very leadership itself.

We could also get into a long discussion, (over refreshments or not :-), about the influence the NDP alliance with Labour has had on "dumbing down" the trade union movement, increasing the over-cautious "timidity" of its leadership, by way of acceding or giving way to the political "power" interests of the former.

Indeed, I think the policy of committment to the politics of the NDP has had a disasterous effect on trade union policy and practice, causing "Labour" to lose itself, its own way, and its independant interests and role. For, as a number of others here have correctly pointed out, I think, those interests do not anywhere near always coincide in practice.

More from the Labour Purity party where workers will get everything they dream of as soon as Coyote can pull it off.

The problem with the bafflegab above is it still requires some sort of solidarity so the working class doesn't run off in 30 million independant directions.

Unfortunately, if the indicator of solidarity is someone who will bad-mouth the elected leadership at every chance and then blame it for unrealistic expectations not being realized then the chance of success is once again marginalized.

Workers will always get beat up on by their bosses when they follow self-styled leaders who take it upon themselves to intentionally cause chaos with the hopes of overturning those leaders.

Normally, demanding the replacement of union leadership is not done in the midst of a bitter labour battle for several reason, not the least, that such actions are divisive and help the employer.

In fact, for any right thinking labour type such an action is normally seen as intentionally harmful.

If it is done by, say a raiding union, then legal action can be thrown up to stop such illegal interference.

Even when members of the specific union start rocking the boat just as stuff is hitting the fan, you can pretty much anticipate an effort to reduce the danger.

That might even involve filing union charges against a member who is intentionally hurting his or her fellow members.

The unfortunate part is when it is an outsider, who really has no business, nor any real understanding of the issues and is working on the sole aim of hurting the recognized labour movement , the BC Fed. there is not much a union can do.

But then I guess some just feel they are entitled to say what they want because they are above that stuff, an intellectual, an idependant thinker or a meddler.

While such a person may be causing even more immediate damage than a scab crossing a picket line, people in BC have the absolute right to make up what ever they wish as long as it isn't libelous.

However, that doesn't detract from the reality that the intent is the same even if the person
claims to just be exercizing free speech.

And some people say its the leaders who are only out for themselves.

Great analysis Coyote, I enjoyed it, I don't know about you but I feel this is going to be the toughest challenge for Carol James, the great ballancing act of distancing the NDP from labour yet banking on it's support, now throw in the possiblity of an electoral system change (no thanks) and we've got a labywrinth on our hands, a very pivotal time for this party to say the least. It's my strong feeling STV won't hurt Gordo as much as it will hurt Carole.

Ms. James can't win either way. If she minimizes the union influence she won't get the support she needs in 2009. If they trump her British Columbians won't put the NDP back in power. If they compromise who cares?
Hey Allan: take a pill and lighten up a little before you have a coronary.

If Carol does do this, frankly, she will be doing the trade union movement a favour, in my view. They will be strengthened by relying on the NDP less, and upon themselves more. Whatever the internal NDP view of the relationship, it has been disasterous for labour, again, in my view.

Workers that individually want to continue to support the NDP with their dollars and their vote would remain free to do so, no doubt. And indeed I would hope that the majority of workers might even be more encouraged to vote for progressive political parties, be it the NDP or whatever.

But what workers, their families and communities, and the country really need, in my wildest hopes, is a powerful, politically independent and militant trade union movement, ready and able to defend and advance its own interests, without reliance on any political faction.

And over the forseeable future, that is not to diminish the importance of progressive and radical political parties and movements at all, including the NDP.

:-D I have difficulty reconciling that this is the same Allan who has been writing here all along. It's gotta be his evil twin. :-)

It's time for a New Political party to eliminate the class system and support labour. Introducing the Democratic Utopia Party for Everyone lead by non other than Wile E Coyote.

I decline to stand.

Personally, again personally, with no expectations of what anyone else might do, I have little faith in the long term usefulness of any political party. I would prefer to rely on myself, and my social class organized in an independent, politically non-aligned trade union movement, prepared and able to defend its own interests, and that of the communities to which we belong.

Just to be clear about my politics, and end your state of perlexion. :-)

Coyote,

OK, fair enough. I didn’t actually get this from your posts, but now it’s clear you have no faith (and presume no interests) in any political parties. Yet are politics not the crux of the problem? Well political parties and big business. You are not happy with our class system, presumably not with a market driven economic system which IS big business which we should all hate as they represent the ruling class which is something that should be eliminated. There’s a lot of whiches in there. I have a problem following your solution if in fact you’ve actually presented one somewhere along the line. Or are you to concede there is no solution and that the trade union fight is a necessary perpetual battle that goes on for eternity and that all the rhetoric is just helping formulate the latest battle plans in an endless war? I had actually thought there was some structure, master plan or Coyote Code hidden within your words. I was hoping you would help enlighten me on how all this is supposed to work. An ideal workable system that replaces today political system, or a party whose platform will create the ideal workable system.

I remaining in a state of perplexion.

Don't hold your breath Perplexed. The Utopians are still working out the details on this one.

Elliot, you must be extremely disappointed that Carole James' NDP leadership seems to have found comment cause with union leadership affailiated to the NDP.

It would appear the unions have agreed that only their members who actually take out NDP membership will be entitled to parfticipate in union/NDP activities.

Perhaps you could explain to some of us which failed NPD leadership hopeful you are schilling here in your pathetic effort to cause political problems.

Oh well, back to the drawing board.

Hey, let me recommend another fifth-columner who might be able to get your campaign refired.

His name is Coyote and he would appear to be just as determined to undermine the democratic process as you through vile accusations and silly statements.

But I must warn you Elliot, Coyote simply isn't in to these one-paragraph slaggers that fizzle off your keyboard.

By the way Elliot, I'm just about as light as I get. Not much chance of a coronary here buddy, but I do fret sometimes that I'll pee my pants laughing as I read your pathetic and shallow efforts to beat up on Carole James.

As I said, if the two of you get together you might accomplish something.

Which is where some thinkers of the more traditional and straight line, keep it simple kind , such as yourself and at least one other here get it wrong. You think it's all about the formal processes of politics that determines all other outcomes. Certainly, in the social sleight of hand that goes on, it is the direction in which the ruling class would wish that the working class remain focussed. Because then will have failed to follow the real bouncing ball that points to the direction in which the fundamental problem lies.

Real power within society lies not in the realm of politics, in my view, but the outcomes there are in fact much controlled and determined by what occurs in another, the pivotal power base of society-, which politics per se is only a secondary outcome of. (It's the error in perception that has been made from the time of Lenin, who made the same error.)

It is not politics per se that rocks the societal cradle, but in fact the real succling mother of society, the economy. Who, as in what social class controls it, the economy, fundamentally determines the real political power outcomes in society, regardless of which political faction occupies that mere "nominal power" there, and to whose primary power all political parties in the end slavishly bend. Who has controlling/owning power within the economy is the real ruler of all society. Politics is but the window dressing "appearance" of things that fools such as yourself.

So, I would say, if one or a class seriously wishes to transform society and exert a growing and decisive power over all other facets of social development, that one or class would be better to not be dazzled the bright bauble of politics, but to focus and exert ones attentions and actions towards the more apparently mundane power issues of the economy, and who exerts influence and control there. It is within the economy that an aspriring class first needs to build its power base, which is my humble advice to the working class. When you have secured a controlling power base there, the politics will soon enough fall into place of nearly its own accord. (An over-simplification, but not by bloody much.)

Rather that be fixated on the secondary political instruments of power, the working class need is to go for the jugular, and secure participation, ownership, boards of directors and management rights there.

Then, my bet is, for example, were you to take the NDP to the ball or to bed, were she your choice, he/she would actually dance and perform with and for you-, and not always be looking longingly and attempting to sneak off to be with "the other" guy. He/she will be content to be with you and love you to distraction.

It may not all be about money per se, though one might want to dispute that, but it is certainly fundamentally about the economy. Love/politics comes after. It is secondary.

Wrote the above in a hurry over lunch break. Apologies for the wording and spelling errors.

blather on allan. hard to believe anyone would fall for those feeble cknw press releases regarding the upcoming convention, but there are always plenty of gullibles out there, (witness the parents who believed the teacher's recent claims). the real war between the ndp and the bcfed is still to come my unfortunate friend. stay tuned.

Coyote,

Boy I’m glad that’s cleared up. I’m a bit disappointed though. I had been thinking (perhaps also some of your cult following as well) that you had a magic wand to help sort civilization out with a more uniform, balanced, fairer and desirable social structure. But alas, it was an empty illusion.

You are correct, I do think in simple terms as does at least one other person. There may be a few others as well. Before venturing into the complexities of social order I think it’s safer and a better approach to understand it in simpler terms first. I had become so dizzy trying to follow all the rhetoric that I simply got myself lost and was hoping for a little enlightenment. In simple terms, so that I and my simple brethren could follow.

Now you say “the working class need is to go for the jugular, and secure participation, ownership, boards of directors and management rights there.” The problem here is that once members of the working class secure these positions and ownerships, they are no longer part of the working class but members of the ruling class. People tend to be products of their environment. When the environment changes, people will adapt to align themselves with the new environment and not the other way around. The best you can hope for is a kinder, gentler ruling class, comprised of those that might remember what it was like to be a member of the working class, but a ruling class none the less. Not many will easily give up their new found wealth and power to make a significant change to the system lest they be cast out back to the working class.

So we come around full circle and we’re back to the perpetual battle of the hated class system with no hope for any change. I guess that’s here in where my perplexed state lies (or maybe just some of it). Unless of course there is a drastic upheaval in our current system started by some worldwide catastrophe we haven’t seen in modern times such as a comet strike or Armageddon, etc. (which incidentally I’ve been told by a well informed source will begin next year)

Elliot, I don't listen to CKNW, but the Globe &Mail had a good angle on it this morning.

Anyway, your predictions of doom and gloom for Ms. James were at best mean-spirited, but none-the-less on a par with your grasp of the dynamics at play.

If I were you I'd show up down at the NDP convention say late Sunday morning when you can get in to watch the unity ceremonies take place.

Hey Elliot, try predicting the weather or something next time.

There is something contradictory to you, to the idea of the working class and its community becoming the ruling class? And in the process overseeing the dissolution of all other classes ?

Yes indeedy, my personal object is indeed, over the long pull of history, that the working class should work, wiggle, squirm and fight for itself, until it becomes the

of all society, or certainly the main body of it, along with its community interest groups. Actually a very old concept in the history of the working class, which only seems strange to right wingers and those who can't see outside the current societal box, like Allan.

You get it, but the idea seems strange, repugnant or fantasmagorical. To me, on the other hand, it seems to be a reasonable long term objective to be aimed and strived for. That is the fundamental difference between myself, thee, and bogged down Allan. (The NDP/Fed Enforcer mentality, once one becomes rooted in it, afflicts one with a particular handicapping myopia.)

Sorry to double post but this comment I feel may help.

Most folks have been dumbed down so much (labor leaders included) that they feel their only hope is to win an election so their actions are guided to some political game instead of just doings what's right. It's no secret I support the NDP, but if the NDP was elected and lost its way then I would support a general strike. ( no backroom deals or compromise) Lets plan our actions for today to improve tomorrow , If you want the labor movement to be relevant you have to make it relevant and stop hoping and praying for a fair deal. Make it happen.

If your not happy with the leadership , take it over , have a labour coup, What's the matter with 5 or 6 general strikes per 4-5 yr term, folks would pay more attention if union politics affected them directly. If labour was strong it could take the drivers seat and people would elect more labor friendly governments, that's the way democracy works, it's not labor that should adjust to some party. It's like native leaders always say, self determination, they don't want hand outs they just want the power to take control of their own lives, that's what labor is missing the power to take control. Theirs not enough courts and jails when folks stick together. The MSM is their is make us feel alone and marginalized, hell we could even guide foreign policy. Canada out of Haiti, or else general strike from coast to coast to coast. We must stop acting like little dogs begging at the table and stand up and help ourselves .

The right is never afraid to act, its only us the middle and poor majority that make them afraid, why do you think keeping hold of the media is so relevant to them. Such a small concentrated goup that runs the show, very sad.

Coyote, you promised me you would no longer communicate with me, but that aside I think you are being particularly silly now.

Please, rather than telling us what Utopia will look like and what part you will surely play in creating it, explain in concise( if possible) terms how we are to all reach your promised land and when?

Just an aside, but do you have a penchant for posing with your right arm in the left side of your tunic while wearing a funny hat?

A little detail, however, without all those tangents you are habituated to, might help, like what should we lowly but really appreciative worker drones do until you have secured the gates, ousted the speculators and squelched all those super-heated egos that get in the way of reality so often?

Coyote, rather than suggesting I am burdoned by wearing the chain mail of either the NDP or labour, you might show us the way.

I've never been held down by "societal box"es) Coyote, but it certainly would appear you have effectivly boxed yourself into an extremely tight corner here on an issue that is proving to be quite belabouring for you to try to clarify.

But do try, otherwise those thousands of inches of copy you have churned out of recent will be lost to the Tyee's broom that makes way for fresh ideas.

I'm ready for either.

"Please, rather than telling us what Utopia will look like and what part you will surely play in creating it, explain in concise( if possible) terms how we are to all reach your promised land and when?"

Let me assist you on your quest Allan, you will reach your promised land when you stop riding on the coat tails of Gordon Campbell and settling for what ever crumbs are thrown you way, when you realize the potential
power that was fought for and handed to you that you waste over weak insignificant actions. When you become willing to step up at any cost and hold your leaders accountable, that would be a good start. Gordo and his bunch are not moderates, they are the all or nothing crowd. Lately they have been getting it all their way . The labor leadership lacks the courage of its convictions lately, I could not help but feel at the labor rally that Jimmy was cutting deals and the NDP was hoping to stay clear of the entire fight, as we sang solidarity we were breaking up from the inside, maybe that's why they hid inside the Pacific coliseum, not to make a bad public
impression.

We must take responsibility for our position, no one with a magic wand is going to save us, We need to have self determination, if your happy with the way things are than fine, if not you actually have to do something,
Very simple actually , you either address problems or pretend eveything is rosy.

Doing my best to make a contribution to that everytime I post here Allan, for myself and my fellow citizens here.

Other than that, you are merely attempting to ascribe motives to me which I do not have.

The future and future society will evolve as it is going to. Obviously. I would like to see it evolve in a working class friendly direction, away from current capitalism, and the limitations of the NDP/labour bureaucracy view of the world, fixed in time and place as it is and going nowhere-, and I make the best contribution to that end I can. I have even attempted to develop for myself, an image of the future that I would like to see, of a classless society and a new kind of worker/community friendly economic and political democracy, much of which I have written here about, but you apparently choose to ignore in order, again, to merely ridicule. (And that's okay. You're pretty thin on specifics yourself, and short on vision, mayhaps even more than I.:-)

I think it helps the working class to have an image in their minds eye of the kind of world/society they would like to see however. It helps guide current practise in the present.

Outside of that, what will be will be. Meanwhile, I will make as great a contribution to the evolution of a working class friendly future as I can. Certainly the current NDP/labour bureaucracy view of the future, which is just more of the same old, same old retreat, roll back and sell out comes up far short of my expectations, and that of many folks and our families.

I don't have a magic wand Allan. Never pretended to. But what is, and what yourself, the Fed and the NDP are offering is a failure. And that's getting more and more transparent to wider and wider circles of folks all the time. Time to collectively develop and work for other alternatives, that can't be any worse than this dung heap you types have dumped us off in, and seem content to remain sat in.

Stuart, someday I just wish you would take some of the advice you offer in abundance here daily and start the revolution rather than waiting for union members to lead you out of your wilderness.

Go ahead out onto the street with your usual rant, but don't expect union people to stand up for you when your agenda is to smash their leadership and open the door to employer attacks.

Frankly, I think it's cowardly to rant that others ought to lead the charge. But I find it dispicable that both you and Coyote have absolutely no qualms about leaping into the teachers' dispute without a friggin' clue of the dynamics, the issues or much else, and then trying to shit all over their leaders.

Oh, but of course, you are exercising your right to free speech, which should never get in the way of the facts or an effort to stroke your own ego.

I'm sure Jack London had a good name for that type of behaviour as well.

You and your pal Coyote are continuing this anti-Fed stance, a stance I must again note Coyote carried from the day he returned to Tyee with a full on hate for union leaders.

And speaking of ridicule, which you think I do of your efforts Coyote, just what low names didn't you try to ascribe to the current crop of labour leaders in a pathetic, but plainly bitter and hostile jab at those elected by the people you think want you to represent them.

Writing long convoluted diatribes about what the working class should do and crapping all over the leaders who probably know a site more than either of you about working class realities is convincing no one other than maybe a few you've previously pandered to here.

The both of you have offered not one single shred of evidence that anyone in labour or the NDP sold anyone out, neither of you were anyway near the talks and at best are repeating what you may have heard third or fourth hand from a couple of dissidents.

If this wasn't such a dark situation with people who call themselves leftists as they try to undermine anything left, it would be laughable.

The two revolutionaries with more than enough advice for an entire readership, but little, if anything of any real value to provide.

Coyote, you've been around this province longer than I so don't blame me,the BC FEd, (which I am not a member of), or others for any dung heaps you happen to be standing in.

Stand up and take some responsibility instead of prancing out, blaming others and then trying to convince the naive that you have written an historic document, if only all the others could understand.

You have both shown little real understanding of anything other than how to make as much noise as some of the right whiners who park here.