I'm sorry Raif, but,Campbell and arbitration is mixing oil and water. Won't happen. He may want it to happen, but, the final straw has settled on the camel's back. There is no way to change this leopard's spots. Even caged this creature cannot be trusted.
Unpopular laws can only be enforced by force, and life in BC is going to get real ugly.
And further-more Raif, your suggestions for any policy making will automatically be rejected as with fish-farms.
You remember that old saw:
Policy is the last refuge of a fool.

It is an important point to recall that the impasse is one that has actually been created by the current government and is not in fact a failure of collective bargaining. By forcing binding arbitration one ultimately will but control over the contract completely in the hands of the government. When one looks to places where such a sytem exists one will see that very often all that ends up being discussed are salary and economic benefits.

One should also note that the 1993, 1996, and 1998 contracts under the NDP did in fact invovle negotiations. The difference was that the negotiations were with members of the government themselves.

In Support of Our Teachers,
Charles

A new bargaining system is on the table for the next round Rafe, as is a raise for teachers and the end of provincial bargaining. Jinny Sims knows all this, so what is this nonsense all about? Politics and politics alone, and a bunch of teachers who don't want to be in the classroom anymore are leading their sheep to the edge of the cliff. Could get very ugly indeed.

It seems Campbell & Co., and CanWest Global wanted the strike, now they have one.

A good friend who is a teacher has confirmed to me, about special needs children in his class, he as three of them! Tantrums are just a small portion of the problem, bathroom needs and 1 on 1 attention takes almost all his time. He has an aide with him three times a week, this just nuts.

Pension or not, he's ready to leave, quit period. What happens if 30% of the teachers quit, the whole education system collapses. Is this what the neocon Liberals want?

Gordon Campbell is the the most dangerous of person and a study in pure evil.

Got your kids in public school, then kiss their education good-bye. Campbell wants losers and he feels the public school system is for losers. Hell, he thinks everyone in BC is a loser!

Campbell is slowly destroying this province and soon we will be a nothing, own nothing and just be vasals to the corporate elites, the Americans and chinese. Campbells vision is to enslave us all!

The BCTF much like the Ferry union are a militant lot. They will whine, sell their souls to the devil, huff and puff to the bitter end.

In this dispute the BCTF wants it all. This is a battle to establish who in fact runs the education of our kids.

Do we want a socialist union in charge of education policy?

For sure ther are issues, legitimate. Unfortunately, the BCTF failed to bargain in faith within the rules established.

Once more we see a Public Service union attempting to overule the taxpayer, and that cannot be allowed.

When I go to a doctor I expect him to understand medicine, likewise an electrician, or a plumber will understand their specialties. Why, then, do people think teachers don't understand education? Even you, Rafe, state that teachers are "too close". I want my doctor to be up close and personal thanks. I would like our children's teachers to be the same. To know them well and to have time to spend with them. If you divide the minutes of a teaching day by the number of students the teacher sees and then subtract for the extra time the behaviour children, the ESL children, the autistic children etc etc. need because of lack of assistance I'm not sure I like the number I come up with.
One good thing. Teachers will have more time to teach science or math when they go back. The bullying programs will be cancelled as the only thing wrong with being a schoolyard bully is - you are thinking too small.

Have you looked at a BC Ferry lately? No, well here's a news flash, they are rust buckets as little or no money is spent to maintain them. Compare to Washington State ferrys, on average their hulls are older, but the boats are in good condition! Cambell wants to destroy the ferry fleet, lowering the value so he can privitse them at a fire sale price. He's doing the same to education!

The last 2 major accidents, the ferry crews acted in a proffessional matter. Only in BC do we begrudge wages for others.

sdgreen:

You think the teachers refused to bargain in good faith? You must be completely ignorant of how province-wide bargaining is working right now.

Currently, the BCTF negotiates with the BCPSEA (British Columbia Public School Employer's Association). The people who sit on the BCPSEA that negotiate with teachers are management from school districts around the province. When they came to the table this time to bargain with teachers, they were completely unprepared. The BCTF was ready to bargain from the get go, but BCPSEA dragged its feet for months and months while the last imposed contract got even more expired. Incredibly, last Spring, they announced that they couldn't bargain because they hadn't consulted with the local school districts. So, 7 or 8 months after the contract expires is a good time to figure out what your position is? I call that completely incompetent. Unfortunately, when they got to the table, their only position was that teachers should take concessions in sick leave and health benefits. Remember, a 0-0-0 mandate that the provincial government was promising them meant cuts if they couldn't make the teacher contract cheaper. There is such a thing as inflation, and the BCPSEA negotiators know what that means. Additionally, if they didn't get concessions from teachers, there would be no room to give themselves raises. After all, they aren't bound by 0-0-0 like other public employees.

It is no wonder that many school districts balked at paying for the BCPSEA out of their own budgets. The BC Liberals now make a direct payment to BCPSEA because many school districts wonder what it is they doing for them anyway.

The fact is that BCPSEA has never been a legitimate player in provincial bargaining. Their financial mandate comes strictly from the provincial government. If you don't have the authority to make money decisions for your members then you have no business negotiating. That is why if provincial bargaining is going to work in this province, the BC government has to be at the table. Otherwise, who is baragining in bad faith? It's not the teachers.

Its always nice to see Gordo stumble out of a bar to comment on the actions of his minions. The teachers have the right to go on strike. Gordo is selling off BC. Not a nice man.

The BCPSEA was put into place for Gordo to hide behind in times like this. They are just another layer of government costing the taxpayer money. Get rid of them!

AS for BC Ferries, they are at least consistently delivering the same level of service. Breakdowns weekly.....

One of the assumptions that many people seem to have is that the BCTF is a large, bureaucratic union run by union bosses.

Let's examine this.

1. Where does this assumption come from?
There is a stereotype of union organization that has its roots in the American media. The model put forth is that of an industrial union like the Teamsters with fat cat union bosses who exploit the rank and file for their own purposes. Do those who make these allegations actually know how the BCTF is organized?

I invite those who hold this view to attend the next Annual General Meeting of the BC Teacher's Federation in the spring. Yes, you are welcome. Have always been.

At the AGM they will observe teachers representing every local in the province and that any teacher in attendance can move a motion and have it debated and, if it is the will of the meeting, that motion can be passed.

2. Can the executive of the BCTF "tell" the membership what to do?
Quite simply, no. A case in point is the current strike. There was a provincial vote to begin job action (88.4%) and then withdraw services (90.5%) The strike will only come to an end when each teacher votes to end it. Not a very convenient way to "run" a union.

Mr. Mair characterizes both parties as being either "too close" or "too far" from the classroom. It's not an issue of who should decide but that the decision be written into contract so that those signing can be held accountable.

We want to negotiate. It's that simple.

Put at its simplest, this is a social conflict that pits parents, students and teachers fighting for quality education on one side vs. taxpayers who'd rather see their tax dollars going towards something that benefits them more directly -- like tax cuts.

The folks in charge (Mr. Campbell & co) were returned to office with the help of massive financial support from the tax cutters' side (and despite a somewhat less massive investment in opposing campaigns from the BCTF and others). The Liberals have been bought and paid for and they know very well where their bread is buttered. Thus they will continue to find money to spare in the public kitty for their team (as with the recent & unexpected corporate tax cuts). But when it comes to the other team (and especially arch-enemy like the BCTF), the kitty will always be bare.

How this plays out will basically come down to whether or not British Columbians accept that this is a legitimate way to govern (using the public purse to reward one's supporters while punishing enemies). I suspect that many folks in the middle, including some who lean towards fiscal conservatism and aren't big fans of the BCTF, would be uncomfortable about accepting this as a standard approach to governance.

It exemplifies the worst of the ugly polarization that most British Columbians are tired of and that the Liberals promised to end if re-elected.

There is nothing fiscally conservative about a government who creates their own deficit through tax cuts for the rich and the corporate parasites. The neo-con privatization agenda and conservative philosophy are not the same thing - indeed the neo-con agenda is radical - just not radical in the progressive sense.

The BCTF an arm of the NDP! You've been smoking Rafe, and not tobacco. The BCTF is an arm of the BCTF. When the choice is a government of anti-union bigots, as we have in BC, and the NDP of course the teachers will prefer the NDP. It is, however, self interest because of the polarised politics in BC rather than from any committment to NDP principles by the BCTF.

I do, however, agree that some other method of settling public sector contract disputes is needed, although it is too late for this particular dispute, and I suspect far too late for this government to initiate any process that would have the required trust from the union side in any group. When this government falls, as it inevitably will, perhaps the replacement will see sense and work towards a voluntary contract resolution system.

I stress voluntary, because no forced mechanism would be acceptable. The instant any compulsion is involved a dispute mechanism would become distrusted and consequently ineffective. personally, I lean towards an automatic or semiautomatic system in which public sector pay rates are linked to private sector rates, perhaps through a statistically generated reference rate with multiplication factors for each scale to be defined. With appropriate safeguards (government not able to overturn decisions, unions agree not to reject, etc.), and with representation on any oversight group from several sectors, including the general public, I believe that reasonable accomodations can be made for long term stability.

The fly in the ointment, of course, is that it requires government to give up some power and control of tax money, anathema to them, and for the unions to voluntarily agree to forgo strikes. That is why this government cannot do it. Trust would be needed, and who in hell trusts Campbell?

A point not mentioned in the article: part of the teacher plan, devised through democratic procedure and voted on, is that they will not go back to work unless they VOTE to go back to work. The leadership is forced by this to employ the democratic model. This means it all comes down to individual teachers and their consciences. The leaders are bound by the members- not the other way around.

Rafe;

I agree, in principle, that an arbitrator, one who is fair, and not overly allegiant to his political bosses (remember the arbitrators are appointed from the Ministry of Labour). I worked for BC Rail, and most of the contracts were settled through binding arbitration, simply because neither side were willing to really negotiate, the same appears to be true with the present teachers' strike. But, this government had to bait them into a full blown strike, by passing legislation geared to force their hand, walk, and pay the consequences, or capitulate under their political masters. For this reason, I'm supportive of the teachers, in my opinion, there is no negotiations under these fascists, they're simply too dictatorial.
Had Gordo et al brought in Vince Ready, as a mediator, prior to the strike, I'm positive the teachers would have held their strike action in abeyance, to give Vince a shot at making recommendations to both sides, but oh no, that would be too easy, and our government can't have that. Kudoes to the teachers for giving Gordo the one finger salute!

Don F.

Sorry for the continuing rant, but Gordo will always piss me off, can't help it, can't stand the guy.

Gordo was a big fan of a referendum to the voters, when he brought out his First Nations' Treaty vote, to see how the electorate felt about past agreements that had been signed off. He screwed that up, with slanted questions, that were no way fair or reasonable, I refused to even sign mine, because of this reason. But, if he were to take a poll of the voters today, and ask them if they felt the Teachers were right in their strike, I'm of the opinion that he wouldn't like the results he'd get in the poll.

I also think he knows that, and we'll never see one put to the voters.

Don F.

BCPSEA is just another smokescreen for Campbell and his government to hide behind, similar to the set-up with the provincial health authorities who are good little soldiers for Gordo's privatization scheme..and well-paid for taking the heat for him when those so-called "tough" decisions have to be made.

The bargaining process isn't broken as Rafe suggests. This is the same ploy used over and over by this government in order to bring in privatization... first the hospitals were broken, the senior residences were broken, the ferry system was broken. Now it is our public school system and the bargaining process that is a vital in upholding it.

Gordo's government is like the guy at the party who degrades everything...his wife, his kids, even the dog. After awhile you realize that this control freak of a guy is the problem and that he has his own agenda going on.

Even this present struggle with the teachers is really about the BCTF. The BC Liberal line is to tell you how much they respect teachers...lol...they just don't want them to have any power. That's how much they respect them. So they relentlessly trash the vessels that hold power for teachers like the BC College of Teachers - and of course the real center of their scorn, the BCTF.

Gordo's agenda is to make you BELIEVE that all things public are broken, irredeemable, and beyond repair. You must fall for this line if they are going to bring in their final solution of privatization and in order to do that every bit of power that resides in the hands of teachers, health care workers, nurses, the union trades, ferry workers, in people themselves, must be eradicated.

But the teachers' struggle has long arms. It has become the struggle of so many. There is a power in that, a power that Gordo cannot excise if we all stand together in support of the teachers.

Lets get something clear, it is brought up by some that government employees where settling for 0% raises and teachers should also. That is false. The workers, the people in the unions, the people who do the real work, the people who put the rubber to ashphalt got 0%, managment got raises. The excuse for allowing them raises, was if you want good people and not lose them you have to pay them. In some cases this is true but mainly it was a way to raises while the workers where held back. Another way management where able to get raises was to increase so called performance bonases and perks such as retreats to Whistler. Another favorite way to sneak in a raise is make overtime and some bonases pensionable. This was not applied to workers. So you see only a segregated portion of govenment employees got 0%.

Why do people send thier kids to private schools? Would it have something to do with smaller class sizes, more one to one attention, more sports field trips. No special needs kids disrupting class. Government likes private schools, the parents pay full taxes plus private school fees and government pays less per student to a private school.

All one had to do to see the "spin" put on the dispute was take a look at the Sunday Province. A parent with a special needs kid (looked like a child suffering from Cerebral Palsy) holding a sign in front of a school, saying that its wrong for teachers to use her child as leverage to get what they want.

First of all, under the current conditions her son isn't served very well at all in the public school system. Either she's a shill for Campbell, or she's entirely blissfully ignorant to think that her son being thrown in to a normal classroom without the proper funding for resources to assist in aiding his education. That one picture was one of the more offensive pictures I've seen in any labour dispute over the last few years.

In regards to Campbell and his ilk picking the fight with the teachers... it's a mockery. The teachers are being used as a warning shot to Heyman, CUPE and the other public sector unions who's contracts come up this year for re negotiation. Campbell is still governing like there's only 2 or 3 opposition MLAs. Hello Gordo, did you not get the hint after the last provincial election???

I do hope that Sims et al hold true to their statements about not going back to work without a negotiated settlement. And shame on Canworst Gliberal, and the milktoast people who have forgotten what it takes to stand up and protect those things to which others have fought for. Mike deJong talking about it being a disgraceful to watch teachers break the law, setting a bad example for kids today, what a crock. If anyone is setting a bad example to kids today, its the fact that our province is still led by a convicted drunk driver, and a merry band of nit wits who couldn't figure their way out of the bathroom.

The times are a changing... and its only going to get more hostile.

I think the most interesting part of what we are seeing playing out, is the fact that the Teachers like other Public Sector Employees and Professionals realize that there is no point in negotiations with the Monkey, you have to negotiate with the Organ Grinder (the government). For far too long the Organ Grinder has hidden behind the monkey saying well, it is up to the School Boards or Health Authorities to divvy up the cash according to their needs. I think all of us know you have to go to the source of revenue who distributes the cash. Whether people want to admit it or not, government ultimately controls the whole structure including class size, class composition etc by the amount of dollars they allocate.
From my discussions with a teacher friend of mine, I was amazed to discover that many of the programs we have thirty plus years ago are no longer there, from Libraries to band to those things that are integral to the learning process. From my standpoint, workers of any level have the right to negotiate working conditions and certainly class size, composition etc qualifies for teachers as a working condition not unlike those safety working conditions that my father's union many years ago negotiated.
As an aside, I also believe that schools really need to incorporate a new mandatory class in the curriculum, Civics. I understand from U.S. classes, this is part of their program to educate children and teenagers into what constitutes our political process.

Teacher's are law breakers huh?

Lets not forget that the UN has about 7 to 9 sanctions against our Prov. gov't in violation of labour laws.

What ever happened to our gov't for not debating the budget last spring prior to the election?
Isn't this a violation of Legislative law?

And let us never forget the boxes removed from the Legislatative building. And the judges who deemed that releasing the findings would have an impact on our election last spring (no shit)

Didn't they also get caught bilking small towns of donations whereby the donators thought they were paying to have access to Mr.Campbell, not donating the money to put in the LIberal coiffers (not once but twice)? Didn't this have eerie shadows of Bingogate?

I do have a question of the Tyee readers though.

As teachers will be making a measly $50 per day strike pay, is there anyway they could find out which corporations made LARGE donations to the Liberal machine? I would hate for them to use that $50 at a grocery store which turns around and gives a portion to the Liberal re election campaign.

If teachers go back to work at the present time, it would be because the government who has clearly told them they are worthless, has a big stick and is going to hit them with it, if they don't.

The BCTF is holding out another possibility, if we stick together, we can change things. We must work together. Teachers are valued and important and will work towards a workable solution.

Hope vs an abusive relationship. There is no choice.

Bond stated, in the legislature, that students, parents, trustees and administrators will determine classroom compositon.

Why?

Rafe, this is like a panel of readers, recyclers and distributors telling you what nouns and verbs you can use. You're too close to your writing to decide that. Duh? I don't understand the analogy.

I think Rafe has offered an interesting observation about the parents, but particularly mom's. There is evidence that women in England from labour homes will support Conservative governments, while hubby sticks with labour.

The evidence I have with respect to mom's in BC is that they (i) will support a government that puts adequate funding into social programs, including health, education etc., and (ii) they don't support Gordon Campbell.

Campbell barely kept the NDP from a huge upset on the strength of the Green voter. My polls reflect women's support of the Green party over 60%. My polls indicate that significantly more women vote New Democrat than Gordon Campbell BC Liberals.

The mother's are still the parents that predominate on the ground at the schools. They are there more than the dad's (even in today's world).

The mother's of regular kids see the two three and four ESL, special needs, or aboriginal students in the classroom, and they know it is not possible for their child to get a proper education with 30-34 children when two or three of these need particular attention. Mother's with gifted children are becoming more and more vocal about a lack of resources.

The mother's are most acutely aware of this situation in the primary grades, and no matter the socio-economic environment the school is in, they are some pissed off with Campbell.

Women voters (like all voters) operate in their self interest. Mother's uniquely will not deprive their child of the best education they can possible get them, even if the government budget doesn't balance.

Look, when push comes to shove at least 40% of voters don't even believe government's numbers as these relate to budgets. To tell parents, particularly mother's that we spent this and that on education while your on a talk show may grab a few voters who don't have children in schools to your side, but the mother's see for themselves there aren't enough resources.

Campbell is not well liked by women voters. Mothers with kids in schools see him as some Wall Street wanna be, like the Gordon Gecko character played by Michael Douglas. "Greed is good". His support in this demographic is going south in a hurry, and where the mom's go on education dad is going to follow, no matter (and this is important) what dad does for a living.

600 million down the drain (Skeena bail-out)
millions squandered on failed fast ferries.
Every union in the province wanting more more more.
We've only recently shaken off the effects of a (NDP) government whose philosophy was spend, spend, spend;

not finished -- hit wrong key.

re millions wasted by NDP -- it's refreshing to be governed by a group that actually tries to NOT spend all my tax money.

And, speaking of spending money, the BCTF spent millions in a vitriolic campaign against the Liberal government during the last election. No wonder there's friction between them and the Liberals.

Perhaps in the next few months, the hotheads at the top of the BCTF will recognize that a deal is possible if they start to be a lot more cooperative. Maybe a wholesale change of union leadership is what they need.

wisteria,

You are a little off topic. The article is about the BC teachers on strike. Did you even read it? If you did, I think your level of reading comprehension makes an excellent case for increased funding for special needs students in BC.

Wisteria you appear to be so knowledgable...could you please (because no other media outlet will) tell me what the BCPSEA (Liberal backed negotiators)offered to teachers for them to be so uncooperative?
We read in the papers that BCTF wants this and wants that but I've never EVER read ANYWHERE what counter offers BCPSEA had. Maybe wholesale change of BCPSEA is what they need.

When destroying our social democracy, when insidiously re-creating classism, the ruling class has many weapons in their war chest. Some of their most potent weapons are as follows: sneakily replacing progressive tax structures with flat taxes, offering you cheap goods via (out of sight-out of mind) slave labour in order to make you feel rich, allowing you to have gambling opportunities so that you may dream of a better future, and last but not least, create infighting amongst the stressed and overburdened working class!

When a working parent directs her frustration at her child’s teacher, when a working parent demonizes her child’s teacher’s union (a union that protects her teacher’s professional practice, and the quality of her child’s education), then that parent has gone from being the biggest potential alley of public education, to having become the biggest potential nemesis of public education. Nothing makes the ruling class rub their hands more with glee than the cannibalistic tendencies of the people they lord over.

Organize! Direct and focus your emotional energies towards the real problem and this whole mess will solve itself very fast!

VANCOUVER RALLY
-to support our teachers

Tuesday
5:30pm
AT BC Liberal Cabinet Offices
Vancouver Convention and Exhibition Centre
999 Canada Place
Vancouver

Ok,

I do supportg teachers, however, that being said, what exactly are the contract demands?

The BCTF website is useless for finding out exact figures....

What exactly are the contract demands? And for what years? What are they looking for in 2007, 2008, and 2009? The public will not be happy is they have to do this over again in a year or two.

They have this link at the BCTF...

http://www.bctf.ca/Bargain/negotiations2004/TeachersTakeAStand/WhyStrikeVote.html

But it is not clear enough for a member of the general public to easily decipher what exactly is being asked for, and for how long.

The BCTF needs to plainly put out what it is asking for it's members. It starts with putting this information clearly on their website. Obviously, teachers are not able to rely on the mainstream media.

Communication is the key.

Kegler. I wasn't going to comment on the article of the mother with the child with CP. It frankley made me sick. I was outraged to see the hypocracy of a mother crying over the predicament of her child being held to ransom when all the while she is using that same child in a news photograph to illicit sympathy from the masses. Never in all my life have I seen such hypocracy.

Solidarity Forever

Moat

My understanding is that we are asking for 15% over three years, restoration of working conditions (mostly class sizes and non-enrolling teachers) that were stripped from our contracts last go-around, and the right to collectively bargain. For me, it's mostly about the the right to bargain, everything else follows from that.

Moat,

Here is a document with more information about the issues teachers are trying to bring forward to the negotiation table:

http://www.bctf.ca/NoteFromTeachers/archive/2005-06/2005-09-14.html

As well, if you would like more information about the BCTF salary opening negotiation position, you'll find information at:

http://www.bctf.ca/NewsReleases/archive/2005/2005-09-23a.html

The main website with BCTF negotiation information is:

http://www.bctf.ca/bargain/negotiations2004/teacherstakeastand/

Wistera, stop telling lies about the NDP.

If I were the NDP, I'd sue the BC Liberals and whatever media outlet continued to lie about the state of the provinces finances when they took over.

Compared to where we are at now, we were in great shape. Under the Campbell gov't our debt has risen astronomically and as well he is selling all the assets we own!!!!

This gov't might as well be an alcoholic out on a bender.

Just stop telling lies. There is no 'noble lie' to be found in these circumstances. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it.

I'm sorry to hear about that mother who has her picture on the cover. Where do they round these people up anyway?

But, they prey on people's stupidity. It's a good thing BC understands CanWest and doesn't take them seriously.

I am a parent of two small children - grades 3 & 7 - and have spent a lot of time in the school. That effort pales next to the time my wife has invested. Volunteering for class help, field trips and attending PAC meetings ain't that bad. You get to see what's going on with your kid's education; you get a bit closer to their teachers (some of whom are excellent, some mediocre and a few truly awful) you also get to gauge the skill and commitment of school administration.

What has been driven home consistently is that the system is breaking down. The amount of fundraising activity is atrocious and it is shocking how much of that money goes to mundane matters. Textbooks, basic classroom materials, basic art and music classes, playground equipment... the list just goes on and on. Furthermore, a result of the horrid political polarization of this community is parents contending with each other over the allocation of the fundraising effort. That circumstance is a direct result of machination by Gordo & Co. to divide and conquer.

Christy was the first telegenic nitwit to serve as his front for social re-engineering of the schools. Remember "budget envelopes"? That was the tactic whereby school boards became the fall guys for underfunding - if you're the Big League manager, you can count on the farm team players to keep their yaps shut. Now we have Shirley Bond who has yet to actually do anything beside run out the clock. If you look closely, you can see the hand up the back of her jacket. This is also the morally bankrupt crew that is able to find yet another half billion dollars for pals but allows only a few nickels to slip for seismic upgrades to prevent our children from being maimed and killed by a substandard building envelope.

The teachers are playing into his hands by allowing him to pit them against over-strained parents with children the meat in this rancid sandwich. What they should do is spend their war chest dough on a raft of skilled flacks and beat the bastards at their own game.

Our polling indicates that voters are willing to happily pay teachers between 6% and 10% over three years. Our polling indicates overwhelming support for more dollars for special needs students etc.

Our polling indicates that most voters think '26' is an appropriate size classroom.

To date the BC Liberals have offered money to independent schools (with some of this for public schools).

To satisfy teachers wages at 7% or thereabouts is about 50 million per year.

To properly address classroom size, special needs, ESL, aboriginal, gifted, is another $50 million per year.

Fixing education is about $100 million per year (quick calculation).

The Campbell government gave wealthiest folks a 2 billion dollar tax cut in 2001. There is no evidence that this ever translated into any gains. Recently he has provided business with another 1 billion (if memory serves me).

Standard and Poor's expects that RAV will run one billion dollars over budget.

Government revenues have increased dramatically owing to commodity prices, with oil still very high per barrel.

Campbell has 'hinted' that the government will talk wages in six months when the mandate is over. This means that on this account alone, if we assume he is dealing in good faith, that he is willing to hold up or frustrate this year of education for $25 million or so.

I'm not sure this makes any sense.

All I can say re this story is welcome to my world. If you don't believe that Campbell and Co are in cahoots with major employers in BC re the tone and type of "bargaining" then you are dreaming in technicolor. Witness the telus dispute. Ordered by the CIRB to offer binding arbitration because of misdeeds that telus was found to commit again and again, telus glibly agreed to "offer" binding arbitration, then reneged on that offer and a year later got that same CIRB to overturn it's original decision. All the while being found to be bargaining in bad faith by you guessed it- the CIRB. When all was said and done telus then said it was imposing a deal on it's employees that it had not negotiated with the union's bargaining agent. During this ugly dispute telus has again and again used and I do mean used the courts to have union members arrested for the horrible crime of being within 9 feet of a building entrance instead of 10 feet. It goes on and on with no end in sight. The real scary scenario in all of this is that during the height of the so called negotiations, telus' CEO has personal audiences with the Gordo. The similarities between the two disputes are alarming in my opinion. What is happening to the teachers and others re the so called bargaining that doesn't take place ie no quid pro quo remind me of what is happening to BC in the softwood dispute. Delay delay delay and when a ruling or opinion threatens to get in the way then simply ignore.

Robbins sce research:

"Our polling indicates that most voters think '26' is an appropriate size classroom."

Is 26 the mode or the mean? And where is your sample from (and how big is it)?

Are you doing any cross tabulation of parents or people who have children in the house with these numbers? Those would be really interesting numbers to see.

Thanks for those numbers and the perspective, Robbins.

Arbitration is a great catch-phrase and solution on paper but since when has any government (left or right)abided by an arbitrators decision. Even those from the esteemed Vince Ready are ignored time and time again. Goveernments think they are rulers and therefore support the 'ruling" class. They are continuing to perpetuate the divisions between the workers and non-workers. how else do you explain great sums of money given to disgraced, discharged and digruntled managers while the working stiff loses more and more diposable income with 0, 0 and 0 legislation.

"Governments are too far removed to make decisions on this subject and teachers are, arguably, too close so let's find a different method and see how it works." (Mair, above)

It may be, Rafe, that doctors and nurses are too close to their patients as well - but when I check on the health of a family member under care, I know I'd rather talk to the caregiver than the Minister of Health.

Robbins has not done his homework!

Year over year the Education budget in real terms has increased dramatically.

91` 2.9 billion
94 3.4 billion
98 3.8 billion
00 3.8 billion
02 3.9 billion
03 4.03 billion
04 4.1 billion
05 4.8 billion

So like where is the problem?

The problem is that costs such as MSP, salaries, resources, transportation, employee benefits, cost of "new accounting practices" (GAP) forced upon districts, etc. etc. etc. have been downloaded to local districts. Money previously targetted for students now pays other bills. This is apart from factors related to rising costs. A dollar in 1991 is not a dollar fourteen years later. It also leaves the rising administrative salaries and budgets out of it....

Fark14,

Thanks for the reply, but even after reading the information on this link,
http://www.bctf.ca/NewsReleases/archive/2005/2005-09-23a.html

it appears that the demands only cover 2004, 2005, and 2006.

What happens in 2007. There is no way that the public will support further job action in 2007.

What is the the BCTF doing about 2007, 2008, and 2009?

Time to be pro-active rather than reactive, because job action hurts everyone.

Skimming the forum, I didn't notice any references to the public school system being an "essential service". Wasn't this the legal designation obtained by the BC government in order to legislate the teachers back to work?

I believe that our public school system is an essential service AND that the government must treat it as such - ie full funding, appropriate class sizes, lots of options, etc.

Teachers, students, and parents should not have to be out fund raising every second week in order to provide a broad rich education (more than just the 3 R's) for our citizens. A skilled, well and broadly educated citizenry are the roots of a strong healthy society and economy.

I have to agree with Rafe that Campbell has baited the teachers. I also have to suggest he is a master at it.

If the BC Government has truly balanced the budget and achieved a true surplus (not an accounting fiction), why is there no money for raises for public sector employees?

Moat,

I agree with you. However, I think neither side would be willing to step into a longer term arrangement.

From the government's perspective, they probably want to remain flexible enough to juggle contracts based on the poilitical and economic "mood" of the province.

The BCTF probably wants to keep terms to three years or less so that they can watch trends (autonomy, governance, salary) in other provinces.

Given this, stability will have to come through open and honest communication and a willingness on both sides to negotiate in good faith. Tall order, eh?

"Teachers are too close to the issue"

Kinda like engineers are too close to the designing stage of bridges.

Better to have an advisory group made up of folks who may have driven over a bridge at one time or another to advise, nay, legislate how bridges are to be built.

Teachers and some enlightened administrators and parents know what is happening in the classrooms, they are the best people to consult.

I wouldn't dare tell the Minister of Finance how to do the job.... well, then again, maybe all accountants should be made to follow the same rules (not just Generally Accepted Practices) for keeping track of OUR money.

keep it real
Merv

CKNW has announced that Telus and the TWU have worked out a memorandum of agreement. No details announced, it is going to the members for a vote. I hope there is enough in the deal to get these workers back.

Whatever way the vote goes I just want to give a great big thank you to the rank&file of the TWU for sticking up for Canadian workers rights and our right to unfettered and free collective bargaining.

I would further suggest that the Telus workers have set a fine example for us all. Telus broke every rule in the book and employed a dispicable right to work like approach to labour management realtions.

Not to downplay any other recent dispute, but four unions have been at the forefront of unbelievable struggle. And there has been mixed results. The HEU contracting out strike, BC Ferry strike (illeagal?), Telus dispute and now our teachers.

What we are learning is that the employers are becoming more and more vicious. They are completely uncaring. Three of these employers are our elected representitives. What we are also learning is that this is what workers can expect in the future. Employers and government are redrawing the class lines. Workers need to recogize this and fight back and fight back with determination. Yes, there have been mixed results to date in the stuggles mentioned above, but the average citizen is finally starting to get the picture. Every dog has its day and tomorrow on the picket lines across BC that day will belong to the workers.

In reply to GPM who was wondering what BCPSEA's bargaining offers were. Well, besides 'offering' 0-0-0 wage increase, mandated by the government, they wanted to decrease sick day entitlements. I must admit, I forget exactly what a few of the other concessions they wanted were. And their stance versus any improvements the BCTF was looking for (to new teachers' salary & TOC language, etc.) was that any cost items had to be paid for by the teachers in concessions to other cost items in the contract. In other words, if we were to get, let's say, improvements to new teachers salary, the BCTF would have to find a way to pay for it by cannibalizing something else in the contract.

MOAT was interested in hearing exact BCTF demands, and others have already given him links to these facts. In plain & simple language, we would like a reasonable salary increase (the opening figure is 15%), we would like to have our bargaining rights back and we would like to have our old contract provisions back, the ones that were stripped from our previous contract. In other words, we would settle for our 2001 contract.

You may think that 15% salary increase is out of line. I would like to remind the readers that in the 90's teachers bargained for paltry increases to the salary, and I mean paltry. I remember increases like 1.1% and less in some years. Why? Because our priority was to improve the working & learning conditions in the classroom. Reducing class size, reducing the number of special needs children per class, guaranteeing a minimum level of librarians, ESL teachers and Learning Assistance teachers to support classroom teachers...these things are costly but more important to us than a large salary increase. Which is one reason why we are so upset now. These conditions were removed from our contract
and what do we get in return? Larger class sizes, fewer support teachers and a freeze on salaries. Maybe we should have gone for salary increases in the 90's like greedy pigs instead of bargaining for better working & learning conditions.

My last point is about arbitration. Yes, the provincial bargaining model does not work. Teachers would have been very pleased had the government brought in Vince Ready to arbitrate instead of passing Bill 12. But would he have been given free rein to mediate objectively?

No one has mentioned the Wright Report! Just this year this report came out, commissioned by the government, to suggest a better way for the BCTF & BCPSEA to bargain. It suggested the model of 'Final Offer Arbitration', which, if my memory serves me well, is used by the NHL. And look how effective those negotiations were! So perhaps before we call for the government to step in again and impose arbitration, we should stop and ask, what model of arbitration? And should the government be allowed to impose restrictions on the arbitrator, such as wording to the effect of 'within the government's ability to pay'?

In my 18 yrs. of teaching, we have never had a contract for more than 4 yrs. I don't really think BCTF has anything to do with that but I could be wrong. Before provincial bargaining was put in place by the then NDP government (against the wishes of teachers and the BCTF), my school district had one four day strike in 1989. After that, all other contracts were settled between teachers and our School Board (and Shirley Bond was the Chair back then) without any dispute at all.

In regards to the BCTF not attempting to bargain .. 35 meetings wasn't enough? From reading the BCTF Bargaining Alerts, I understand that the BCTF came to the table ready with proposals and BCPSEA kept telling them it wasn't in their mandate or they weren't prepared to discuss the topic. Now, let me see. If the BCTF had time to poll their members to discover what it was that we (its members) wanted to be the priorities in negotiations, why didn't BCPSCEA have time to prepare too? Do you think maybe they had no intentions whatsoever of even pretending to bargain?? Go to the BCTF website and check out the Bargaining Updates. Unfortunately, there aren't too many because there wasn't much to report.

I found Mike de WRONG's statements on Global TV rather amusing. Especially since a friend (who's "in the know") told me that Jinny Sims and ol' Mike had had a rather cordial chat on the telephone just the night before. Gosh. Why do you think he would be lying to the public??? Jinny Sims has announced publicly that the BCTF is ready to meet 24/7 to try to come up with a solution. Tell me, please, how this indicates they aren't ready to negotiate????

And isn't it sad that this far into this dispute there are members of the public who still don't know the real issues? That comes from the biased reporting of Global TV et al. Moat, thank you very much for caring enough to ask. The answer you were given are the current goals. The collective bargaining part was added because it's so obvious that it's not happening. The first goals that teachers voted for (which provided the 88.4% yes vote) were (and in this priority despite what the media says): (1) smaller class sizes, (2) adequate / increased support for special needs students, (3) a fair and equitable raise. And I know from talking to many teachers, that there are many of us (myself included as you may have guessed from my sign-in name) who would give up #3 (for the umpteenth time!!!!!) in order to achieve goals #1 and #2.

This shameful display of militant education union arrogance and sense of entitlement put on by B.C. teachers is exactly what the Dalton McGuinty government faced in Ontario not long ago.

Institutional arrogance run amok.

Instead of holding the line on costs with legislation, then setting improvement goals tied to wages as the British Columbia government has done, Dalton gave our militant teachers the money up front, then made the testing procedure less accountable by making it easier to pass, guaranteeing an “improvement” when the teachers fail to deliver the goods, as is the norm in brain-dead Ontario.

The only thing children really learn from the example B.C. Teachers have set is if you don’t get your own way, just break the law to get it. Look how easy it is to get something you never earned nor rightly deserve.

It’s the easy way out.

But breaking the law is the very worst example for teachers to set for the kids and public they are highly paid to serve, yet they serve themselves first, always.

To jdgreen

Contrary to your comment, the BCTF did attempt to bargain in good faith under the new rules established by the government. The employers did not negotiate at all. The reason there were no results from the countless rounds at the table was that the employer refused to bargain, and stated only that the teachers would get no guarantee of limits to class size, or improvements in classroom conditions. The BCTF did try to bargain in good fatih.

To Charles Menzies,

I have checked out your website in support of BC teachers and just read your letter to the BCTF in a bulletin. I (and I'm sure every teacher in BC) would like to thank you very much for the efforts you are making on behalf of our students and teachers. The support we have received from the public (contrary to the biased reporting of Global TV) has been overwhelming. It is refreshing to see someone who can see past the government rhetoric and know the real truth. The support shown through your website and the efforts of other parents help teachers to remain strong and more than willing to continue this fight on behalf of our students and in defense of public education.

Thanks again

apple-I am going by memory, but an older poll-six months or so, I linked a question to respondents (parents?) about the size of class they would teach-and I believe it was 26 (something of their own expertise or knowledge). The sample size in the poll was good, but this wasn't a poll that would imply anything quite as specific and definite as yours would suggest. I was really trying to identify how individuals would perceive a 'workable' room, this doesn't factor whether the 'room' is full of children or adults (kind of a working hypothesis).

Not definitive in any real sense, but as a baseline at least in self perception of something people could manage, if they were the ones who had to manage it.

Normally, in quick stats I like median and mean, overall, and varied in different subsets from different regions. In this study I suppose mode would have fit in anyhow because respondents weren't saying 2 and 100. Respondents were within a pretty specific range. Often I will collect a series of medians and means like this and than take these and median and mean them once again.

As I recall there were few higher numbers and some more lower numbers (if in this sense 26 is a median-which it may not have been). But generally people will accept somewhere between 20-30. I have no idea (we did not ask) if respondents had any experience with a room full of people, or if there only experience is a classroom that they were in, (tutorial) or one their own child is in. I suppose what I am getting at, is that generally speaking people if they have to teach something they know to others, they want as small a group as possible. The other point was that people don't necessarily answer "2" just to make it easier. The implication is that it is something of value to impart knowledge to as many as people as possible without 'losing' any due to numbers. It is satisfying to impart knowledge to many people, but we don't want too many which might impact on the the entire group in a negative way.

The tendency amongst respondents was not to go to a larger room with a microphone like one might see in a 1st year psychology class, or an Anthony Robbins seminar. If the concept is to impart knowledge most people (according to the poll I speak of) think in terms of smaller sizes, but are no so shy are lacking in confidence that they insist on a completely small number of people. Would these respondents have empathy for teachers classroom size and wide variance of student capability? I think so.

For teachers as for most people it is obvious that they think they can be more successful with less students to teach. It also makes their job easier. My point as general as it was (is), is that most people want a reasonable size group if they want to be successful at imparting knowledge, and can relate to the teachers argument.

sdgreen-how can you correlate (even) my quick math with you evidence of overall budget numbers and suggest that I haven't done my homework. My reference is on raises-number of teachers X average salary times raise-

Your overall budget included CUPE workers, contract workers, deputy Ministers, capital costs, maintenance on and on.

I am speaking of apples and you of oranges.

A bit of quick draw my brother/sister. Hardly the way to distill the arguments to make better sense of it.

24 hours and this could all be resolved by calling and this time actually going ahead and having a general strike.
This would assure the goof liberals would not screw with any union again for fear of another general strike.
It would also make a very good model for the rest of canada and quite possibly the world.
Go BCTF Go!

Thanks,

Fark14, Justme, and Spedteacher. I will tell you that I am biased because my wife is a teacher and I do understand the demands of the job. I also understand that the current salary demands are:

July 1, 2004Cost of Living (2%) plus Market Adjustment (2%)
July 1, 2005Cost of Living (2%) plus Market Adjustment (3%)
July 1, 2006Cost of Living (2%) plus Market Adjustment (4%)

Very fair.

But...What happens in 2007? There is no way that the public will support further job action in 2007 or 2008. Is there going to be another demand for a salary increase to keep up with Ontario?

What is the BCTF's plan to avoid making further political hay in the next two years? It would be a public relations disaster to be out on the picket lines again.

I think what this government has been telling us through its actions ( their ripping up of contracts, their disregard of court decisions not ruled in their favour, their stripping of vital provisions from collective agreements) is that it has no intention of bargaining in good faith. Not now, probably not ever.

So, in some ways, the details of contracts that have always been of such importance become meaningless when one looks at the bigger picture. In other words a settlement may delay the inevitable for a few years but sooner or later their utter disregard for the rights of working people must be dealt with in a way that will bring real change... rather than just a patch on the dam that is really, at best, just a temporary fix.

This government will tamper with the process of arbitration and skew it in their favour ...just as in the name of so-called "funding" it consistently underfunded services.

So basically the labour movement's strategy must include a psychology of dealing with a government that has proved it cannot be trusted...that it does not know the meaning of bargaining in good faith.

This requires a focused and inventive strategy of wider scope involving all unions, their leaders, and an active, participatory membership that is willing to take on this struggle. A struggle against a corporate world view that has no intention of making a fair deal... when its whole game is about weapons of disguise and mass deception.

Moat,

I'm afraid I don't know the answer to your question of what will happen in 2 yrs. I've been to the last two AGMs and there was so much discussion about what was going to happen for this round of "negotiations" that there wasn't time to look that far to the future, I'm afraid. Unfortunately, I suppose that lies in the hands of the government. If they are willing to negotiate or, better yet, return to bargaining within districts then we could actually have a true collective agreement and avoid a strike. Wouldn't that be nice?? I sure hope we don't have to go through all this again in 3 yrs. time!! (I say 3 because the BCTF usually gives BCPSEA a year of dawdling before the threat of a strike starts looming over our heads.)

Is it just my imagination, or does De jong look dazed and confused in the extreme?

Sort of reminds me of George W. Bush's first meeting with Russia's Putinen, when it was pretty damn easy to spot which guy was in over his head.

It's great to know that the teachers have already won, and it's fun to watch the labour minister slowly arrive at the same conclusion.

Imagine that you had a nice little federal mail contract to fly in mail to remote communities. Let us say the contrct was renewable every four years, usually resulting in negotiation around cost for your private airline around services and a reasonable profit amrgin.Suppose too this service actually ensured the survival of your vital airline servic eot outlying communities, particualry in winter, when tourist passengers are more rare.
Now imagine nightmarishly that Gordo's crowd became the federal government and promptly rip up your contract. Next h annonces that his government is expecting your little airline to continue providing mail flights, but they are demanding an increase to two a week from one and that no extra dollars (0) dollars. More flights are to be awarded for this additional service.
Imagine when you refuse to continue the service he legislates that you must do it as an essential service. When you refuse to fly the mail any longer, he asks the courts to punish you, thus ensuring your bankruptcy. A large regional airline then picks up the contract awarded at three times the original amount.
Imagine that Can West then gleefully announces that you heinously broke the law,greedily seeking more money for less work and daring to defy "just laws".
How do people in a democracy get away with breaching contracts with the stroke of a pen and a(72 to 3) vote in the legislature. How do they get away with then decalring a contract, and again imposing a lefislated contract on people (45-33), when negotiations are attempted.
Could this be the reason techers are going to practice civil disobedience? Could this be the reason this province is potentially headed toward a general strike?

Sorry for all the typos above-its late.

A Fable.

Imagine that you had a nice little federal mail contract to fly in mail to remote communities. Let us say the contract was renewable every four years, usually resulting in negotiation around cost for operating your private airline, around services and a reasonable profit a margin. Suppose too that this service actually ensured the survival of your vital airline service to outlying communities, particularly in winter, when tourist passengers are rare.
Now imagine nightmarishly that Gordo's crowd became the federal government and promptly rip up your contract. Next he announces that his government is expecting your little airline to continue providing mail flights, but they are demanding an increase to two flights a week from one and that no extra dollars (0) are to be awarded for this additional service.
Imagine when you refuse to continue the service he legislates that you must do it as an essential service. When you refuse to fly the mail any longer, he asks the courts to punish you, thus ensuring your bankruptcy. A large regional airline then picks up the contract awarded at three times the original amount.
Imagine that Can West then gleefully announces that you heinously broke the law, in your greedily seeking more money for less work and daring to defy "just laws".
How do people in a democracy get away with breaching contracts with the stroke of a pen and a(72 to 3) vote in the legislature. How do they get away with then declaring a contract, and again imposing a legislated contract on people (45-33), when negotiations are attempted.

markalanwhittle, "But breaking the law is the very worst example for teachers to set for the kids and public they are highly paid to serve, yet they serve themselves first, always."

Gordon Campbell was arrested for drunk driving in Hawaii. That means he broke the law and yet refused to resign. Spare me the over-the-top drivel.

Well, since the CBC strike is settled, and someone noted above the TWU strike is about to be, perhaps the Fascists realise they've misread the mood of the people and started playing their trump cards a little too early.

Hang in there teachers, my bet is you've been dealt a winner.

Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens and creates a country where everyone lives in fear.
--Harry S. Truman

When the leader and co. win elections with lies and then expect the electorate to obey their laws, the electorate, then will in time have to decide whether to obey or protest.
Leaders who have won with lies;
Trudeau--Wage and price controls.
Mulrooney--Free trade.
Cretian--Recinding GST.
Marten--The jury is out.
Campbell--A large but nonexising deficit.
These men dishonored their word and illigitimised their governance. Eventually people will shout out their windows, I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANY MORE. Protesting Gordos laws is a legitimate action by any and all.
Using the judicial system to punish protest by unions with stiff fines, is one way governments steal union dues to redistribute money to their corporate masters for tax cuts.
The teachers protest is NOT a strike and the judiciary must not be used to ligitimise a dishonored government.

markalanwhittle, you poor, befuddled individual. The teachers have been ruled, by this neo-fascist government, as essential service employees, thus not allowed to withhold their services, ie a strike, to support their demands for improvements in their contracts. They are NOT essential service, just because Gordo and his ilk has said so, doesn't make it true. Essential service is to be used for police, emergency room hospital staff, the military, professions where there must be somebody available, in time of a crisis. Gordo et al have an agenda, to give tax breaks to the well-to-do, at the cost of the middle class, especially those receiving wages from the public purse. To be able to do so, he comes up with cute buzz words, which are primarily lies. He lied about his drunk driving, said he was headed to his hotel, but was going in the wrong direction, to more booze, he lied about not selling BC Rail, yet did, after promising not to do so. He lied about the deficits the NDP created, yet audited reports prove that the average deficit they had was 2% over budget, yet his first four years in power had an average of 8% over budget, simply because of the huge tax breaks the wealthy received. He promised accountability and open government, yet cut back on the watchdog ombudsman's budget, he cut back on freedom of information. He has cut social spending, because of a lack of funds from his misguided taxation policies. And he has his ace-in-the-hole, CanWest Global Communication, who report positively on his behalf and use their propaganda against the leftists. Now, he restricts his bargaining agent, tells them they cannot do this, accept that, make them the fall guys, then enacts legislation, his too often used hammer, to ramrod his methods through, and declare that to be LAW. Let's be honest here, Gordon Campbell does NOT believe in fair, and open, collective bargaining, he only believes in his agenda, and all of us are paying the price for his follies.

Don F

Forget "Neo-facist"! Check your "Roots", Dudes & Dudettes! Way back when I WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL, our SOCIAL STUDIES TEACHER told us such 16th Century GOVERNMENTS[/B],(as we clearly have before us now) were called [B]"A U T O C R A T I C", and GORDO might as well be considered our "Fuedal Lord", from now on!
Best of Luck to the BCTF, because all of us "peons" will benefit from their "Bravado" !!

Luv, dO wAH

It's time to get business involved.

BCTF needs to come up with a list of certain businesses that their members will not be spending their dollars in during the remainder of this dispute. It would be good to let them know how much of their hard earned dollars go to support local businesses.

Mike DeJong is in way over is head, as is Shirley Bond. Do these two ever have anything intelligent to say??

History is about to repeat itself...

I find all this rather comical. Seems not a single person here can remember that since 1991, the BCTF has been unable to sign a contract with anyone, even their NDP buddies, whose mantra was always "we'll give you every thing you want and that is our final offer."

The fact is, the BCTF is refighting May 17. Get over it, you lost. No court in this land is going to allow a comtempt order to be defied, no can it. Remember the Carmanah protesters? Every one arrested went to jail. That was an NDP government.

Further, the Jim Sinclair set is nothing but a political dinosaur; we've all too often heard their bleating to take it very seriously anymore.

I see a way out of this. The BCTF will never go away, but we can limit their influence.
The Provincial Govt.is already funding each student for about $7,000.00 each.
If they simply give each student a VOUCHER for $6,00.00 each to spend wherever they want to get educated. This would give a choice to parents. They could select a public school of their choice, or susidize this amount and send the student to a private school.
The more people in private schools the better. BCTF's influence would be diminished.

Of course, choice is what all lefties fear the most. The idea that free thinking individuals can make reasoned from a non-dogmatic standpoint is anathema to them. The left's mantra is as such:

"We are smarter than you are. We know better. We have the only correct political ideaology that, with enough money, can make the world a perfect place. All you have to do is obey us, simply becuase we know better than you do."

There you go again Ron. Your head up your ass as always. Might I remind you that the taxpayers pay for everything the government puts out. And that should not include corporate welfare. They make their own money usually by gouging consumers and driving up the cost of living. I'm finally putting you on IGNORE

Intersting comment. In fact, leftist are the most conservative members of society. Once they have decided that their Copernican system has reached perfection, any attempt to alter it leads to righteous indignation.

Here's how smart the BCTF is: They're scared whitless of private education, yet they've spent the last year putting every effort into telling B.C. parents that the public education system is in tatters. Why am I not surprised that they'd do something this stupid?
p.s. I've heard that several teachers have crossed the ILLEGAL PICKET LINE today. Who was it that wanted to place bets?

I find it utterly ironic when anyone on the right lectures about choice. The only concept of choice that the REs and the WPs understand is that of consumer choice - and this is where the irony enters because whilst beating the drum of greater choice of consumer goods (of which they now include education), they're actually limiting choices via the walmartization of everything in sight. That said, i won't even touch on personal choices within the realm of civil liberties (think the patriot act in the US).

Let's connect the dots. You can put your kids in a different school already. You already have choice.

You will find that teachers have the same issues no matter which school you go to. So taking your magical $6,000 voucher somewhere won't change the world.

"Copernican system"? Being paid by the word so you emit nonsense?

According to the strike vote we can safely assume a couple of thousand teachers are against the strike. If some of them show up it means very little. Its only when the other 40,000 do that kids will be back in school.

Since the BCTF will not publish the number of votes cast, we really do not know what percentage is opposed to illegal actions.

I might add that my kids are already in private school which provides better and more education. One year of the BCTF was more than enough to show me they are a slack-ass lot.

Example: "Professional Days" BCTF: 13
Private School: 0

I vividly remember my older son's first month of Kindergarden: The teacher had moved house on Saturday. She was "too tired" to come to work on Monday. Did she get paid? You bet your boots she did and so did the sub that took her place.

The private school my kids attend absolutely smokes the public school my kids went to two years in every academic measure. What is more, the teachers are free from the poltical dogma that characterises the BCTF.

And they poor, misguided teachers at private schools: Every one is a certified teacher and a member of the BC College of Teachers. All could quit their private school jobs any time they wanted. Not one to whom I have spoken would leave the intellectual environment they are in to return to left wing udealogues.

Oh the misguided lot they are! Me, too! I do not know what is best for my family because I can make decisions for myself!

Good for you WP. Can you tie your own shoes too?

Working person you are misinformed;

The number of Professional days you have quoted is incorrect. The real number is 5, above and beyone the teaching days.

I wonder what else in your missive is incorrect?

Working Man, you have just proved there is choice in where to send your kids in BC. Please point this out to Ron Erwin.

As for public versus private schools you're blinded by ideology. What is the teacher to student ratio in your private school? Do they have ESL and special needs kids?

Or just tell us which private school it is.

As I expected, arguments against the VOUCHER system are illogical, idealogical and an emotional attempt at preserving the status quo. It's the status quo that has made us slaves to Public Sector Unions (PSU's)
PSU's manopoly on education has to go. We are slaves to these groups.
The only losers if we went with the voucher system is the BCTF.The students, parents and taxpayers all benefit. Why are we slaves to PSU's ? Let's try to find constuctive ways to find freedom from these masters.
Did I say slaves enough ?

Example: "Professional Days" BCTF: 13
Private School: 0

What a JOKE!! Working Man you are so typical of right wing followers, so ready to repeat the BS but not willing to spend 5 seconds in research to find out the truth.
(not that you pay any attention to it when it is pointed out to you)

QV what I said about the left; you see, because I do not agree with the left's mantra of always knowing what is best for everybody else, a Staw Man is created and attacked:

What a JOKE!! Working Man you are so typical of right wing followers, so ready to repeat the BS but not willing to spend 5 seconds in research to find out the truth.

Umm it wasn't a straw man Working man it was a direct quote from YOUR post.

Yes, your child is in private school and you want a gov't welfare check to help pay the tuition, regardless of whether it undermines and eventually destroys a healthy public school system which is vital to a healthy, productive, civil society. Selfish and immature.

quotes Professor.

A quote well-worth the read.

That is why an all encompassing strategy is so important. A strategy that includes the psychology of dealing with a government whose actions in a quest to silence opposition have been those of a relentless socio-pathic bully.

Yup send your kids to private school where they and their classmates are screened so there arent any physically, emotionally, mentally or behaviourally challenged classmates and make sure that they all speak the same language. Then whine about the public school system and it shortcomings when your elite school scores marginally better on some meaningless test that, at best, measures how good the kids are at taking tests rather than how much EDUCATION they have achieved.

I have to re-iterate my view on this issue from Gordo's comments during the 05' debate where he was down and out except for how animated he became on the 'teacher issue'. This was well planned in advance as shown by his comments and actions being expressed moments before the voting bagan that they were going on strike right then and what is happening now.
Down with the neocons and lets get some accountability from gov' here and start listening to the people/citizens.

Come on, people,

You lost on May 17. Try to figure out why and what you can change to win next time.

Are you really so conservative that you cannot change?

Actually, Working person. I do agree with you that we are conservative in reality.

I am in any event. I believe in conserving the environment, our social safety contract, our agreement to help those less fortunate than we through our progressive tax system.

I believe in balance and justice. Wisdom. Fairness. Common sense. All conservative values really.

What I'm not is a 'reactionary without a conscience', which is where the 'conservative' movement appears to have descended.

And you know what, redrivergirl, I agree with your points as well. However, I do not think that the union movement should have so much say in the policy of the NDP party.

Neither does its leader, by the way. She correctly realises that the reason the NDP has such trouble forming and sustaining government is a small, unelected body, decides party policy.

That is why the NDP has never formed a federal government and why in the last 55 years there have only been three in BC, two of which went down in disgrace.

It’s pretty easy to see what is happening here. Big labour is trying to fight the last provincial election. Jinny has now even said herself that this is a political move. The people of this province voted for the Liberal government to do what is best for the entire population. Their mandate isn't to give select special interest groups operating in a ideological vacuum whatever they want. The BCTF has never successfully negotiated a contract under this format instituted by the NDP. This shows two things: either the BCTF leaders are inept and cannot negotiate in good faith or the system is broken. Either way an illegal strike is not going to fix any of those problems. Hopefully soon the BCTF can get over their ideological hissy fits and do what’s right for the province for once.

"Big labour is trying to fight the last provincial election."

This seems to be the new talking point. I hear it all over press now.

I think they're trying to fight for fair negotiations, better wages and classroom conditions.

and to fight the lies put forward by the chief liar and his cronies

Uh, yes it is. It's called the coporate sector!

Working man, the reason the NDP haven't gotten in federally to date is that until fairly recently there was really not that much difference in the three parties: Progressive Conservatives, Liberals and the NDP. Canadians like a slightly to the 'right', central gov't with a robust socialistic (not communistic) opposition to ensure the rights of those less fortunate were represented and as well so that policies that benefited all Canadians were enacted. Of course, now terms like 'left' and 'right' are misleading.

I am not invlolved in politics and thus I don't know what MS James thinks. I do like her suggestion to eliminate campaign financing so that Big Business (transnational corporations etal) and labour do not influence the parties and can't be bought off.

I am not a proponent of the NDP moving to the right and becoming Neo-Con light. We can see how well that strategy is aiding the Democrats in the US, who would be completely devestated if the grassroots activists were not bouying the party via Moveon.org etc. The Democrats have rolled over, some I'm sure bought off by the same campaign money Ms James would like to eliminate.

What should scare parents most is the question " how are these leftist teachers influencing the future politics of our children ? " I have spared myself this concern by helping my granchildren go to private school. I pay taxes as well as subsidize the tuition. The sole purpose is to avoid the BS that the BCTF gives to teachers as their talking points.
I urge all parents to contact their MLA and recommend the VOUCHER system. It's the only way your child can be assured of getting a well rounded education and has the added benefit of telling the BCTF where to stick it.
Remember how the BCTF tried to interfere with teachers getting certified at Trinity West religious college ? They insisted that the potential teacher get spend the last year of their training at SFU or UBC in order for them to hang out with queers and drug addicts .
Trinity took the BCTF to The Supreme Court of Canada and won . They can now certify teachers who largely ignore the public school system
Privatize all you can, it's absolutely necessary to our survival.

"They insisted that the potential teacher get spend the last year of their training at SFU or UBC in order for them to hang out with queers and drug addicts ."

Ron, you're true colours are coming through.

Working Person:

You said: "I find all this rather comical. Seems not a single person here can remember that since 1991, the BCTF has been unable to sign a contract with anyone, even their NDP buddies...."

You are a liar. The BCTF met directly with the NDP government in the summer of 1998 and came to an agreement. They agreed to a 0-0-2 salary increase so they could get lower class sizes. Many school districts were upset, but the BCTF negotiated and reached an agreement with the only body they should have been negotiating with in the first place. It would be more apt to say that the BCPSEA has never negotiated a contract with anyone, but then again, how could they since they can't make money decisions. The BCPSEA is a complete waste of taxpayers' money.

Some folks just can't resist making every discussion into right/left argument. Interesting that Rafe has been labled with both. In any event the voucher system has been an unqualified failure in almost every jurisdiction it has been implemented. Some folks should do a little honest research before puting their ignorance in print.
Two of many articles on the negative impact of vouchers. Pueblo, Colorado. Total disaster for the school board, parents and the school system. A westend of Chicago school district voucher system usurped with funding for inner city schools reduced to around $200 while per student funding in wealthy area increased to $2000. PLUS the vouchers. The politically powerful made sure their kids got the goods. There are many other examples to cite as well. Interesting that a comment should be made about the kind of students that are found in UBC and SFU. Seems to me a couple of 'Christian teachers' posed for a very racy skin magazine a few years ago. Some folks should be careful about the stones they throw.

Raif you speak through the side of your mouth.
When you were a member of the legislature, you displayed nothing but contempt for teachers and yet you give advice on how to solve the problem between teachers and the government. How hypocritical and insulting to teachers can you be?

Burgess' you mention two flawed voucher systems. Anyone could find hundreds of failed education systems,
That there have been flawed voucher systems somewhere else doesn't mean a well planned voucher system wouldn' work here.
How can it be worst than what we have here now ? Are you saying stick with the status quo that ensures we have no choices and must deal with the BCTF if we like it or not ? Forget it, I will stick with innovative solutions . It doesn't sound like you have one.

The bottom-feeders just don't understand how UNION DEMOCRACY or Parliamentary democracy work. Parliamentary Democracy works from the top down,(the leader dictates and the followers obey) With UNION DEMOCRACY the members dictate and the leaders obey. That is what their job is.
When 85% of the membership votes 90% plus,to inact Job action, the leader obeys.
The Supreme Court of BC. has not ordered the teachers to stop their protest, so there is no Contempt of Court.
The media scribes, talking-heads and the entrepreneurial talk show hosts are just marching to the tune played by their corporate masters. They are irrelevant to greater course of events.

All you who keep on yammering on about how the BCTF never managed to negotiate a contract with the NDP, either, seem to be missing a couple of crucial points: they were dealing directly with the gov't not a third party who has no power to do much of anything; the NDP imposed contracts made some type of acknowledgement/concessions to the issues the teachers held closest to their hearts; the contracts did not remove the basics of labour rights from them; they did not tell the teachers that after minimum 5 years university in their chosen field they weren't professional enough to know what was what.

You righties keep saying that if they don't like their jobs, quit.If they don't go back to work fire'em or jail'em. What are you going to do if they do? At 10% that's 4200 teachers, 20% that's 8400 teachers do you people actually think that the gov't has got replacements lined up?

What do you think Mr. &Mrs.Suburbia are going to think of a gov't that lets violent criminals out regularly but jails peaceful protesting teachers/union leaders?

What do you think Mr. & Mrs. Suburbia are going to say, think, do when they find out that the kids classes are going to enlarge further (at least a couple of months if not years) while the gov't scrambles around trying to fill the positions?

Do you people actually think that teachers from other areas are going to move to the only province in the free world that classes them "essential" and removes their barginning rights? Do you think that the teachers are going to have a hard time replacing the jobs?

Ron Erwin:

"They insisted that the potential teacher get spend the last year of their training at SFU or UBC in order for them to hang out with queers and drug addicts ."

Whatever credibility you had is now gone. You are a bigot and irrelevant to any discussion here.

The voucher system is a dinosaur of bone headed thinking. It doesn't work in any of its forms. As for the present system even with its warts it is better than vouchers. It is not for me to defend the present system but for the supporters of the voucher system to find where it works without the interference of those who would usurp the vouchers for their own narrow purposes.

PS. Why is it the majority of Provincial and
State education departments avoid the minefield of the voucher system? (They pass the buck to the local boards in the US) You need to answer that question first.

Talk about scorpions in a bottle!

I, for one, would much prefer a more civil tone to this important discussion (public education). I log on seeking information, different points of view to consider, and to improve my understanding of this current crisis. However, too many bigots and extremists hijack these boards, and writers get personal and insulting. It degrades the whole process until those of us who would like to participate in a meaningful public discussion can't tolerate the rants anymore and just log off.

I suggest we simply don't respond to the ridiculous posts that clearly are only provocations from those writers who make them for their personal jollies.

If, after a while, no one is responding to your posts, take a hint.

Government claims teachers have a contract that was signed into law. This is wrong. A contract is a formal agreement between two or more parties. The teachers in the public schools have not agreed to the terms legislated by the government. By definition, we do not have a contract.

What we have are bullies in the BC Legislature who think they have a right to break international labour standards to which Canada, and hence, BC, is a signatory.

I wish to thank all of the wonderful teachers who teach my children; and I wish to thank all of the people who support the teachers.

Let's get the kids back to school. There's no doubt, that's where the teachers want to be.

Lobby for REAL contract negotiation.

"The teachers are ready to talk, 24-7"

Well done, Jinny! We WILL stay the course, 24-7!!!

Maybe some people need to remember that the Fiberals were slipping in the polls until they LIED about an upcoming strike vote that was supposedly to be conducted immediately after the election.

Thanks for your post oronym. I have the utmost respect for the work of teachers, and do instictually lean toward them, but I would ask them to review the effectiveness of their organizational body.

I want to get behind the teachers, but the BCTF's self reverential remarks are getting to be so ridiculous that they are beginning to be in conflict with rather than supportive of my desire to support their constituency.

The fact is that no corporation, individual or public entity spent more money than the BCTF in the last election. It looks like they are still looking to a return on their investment. As a labour union, the BCTF is not some collective of altruistic professionals fighting for our helpless children.

The BCTF is simply applying the time honored precept of more money for less workload, and, like the BC Fed they joined two years ago, they show no hesitation in leaving the classroom and kids behind in order to achieve their goals.

Just as the law says that I as a parent I have to have my children in school, it is now law that the teachers have to be there too. . Now that they have withdrawn from the classroom I am rethinking my support. Their actions contradicts the need for non-partisan positions and content than must be the prime directive for teaching.

I urge teachers, and parents, to understand that in the delivery of educational services to British Columbians, the BCTF is a minor element and a major impediment. I am starting to believe that we may need to start to diminish their role. t is time to reorganize the delivery of public education.

Teachers cannot teach in a public school in BC without joining the BCTF. We need to encourage other models and other voices and strip the BCTF of this outdated monopoly. This will make the process much less militant as we move from traditional union negotiation techniques to actually focussing on developing creative and unique solutions. I contend that the parents, administrators and teachers can work together better reforming the system without the presence of the BCTF, and with the freedom of speaking and working together where and when they choose.

The system is broken, and is hurting the students. The teachers can't be happy either- they got zero zero, and never really got heard above the noise of the intransigence and deep distrust of the players involved. Third party binding mediation is not a lasting solution will put the needs of the students and the teachers in the hands of those that are experts in labour relations, not the theory and practice of education.

Why not give parents the choice and encourage excellence by allowing the parents to choose which school to enrol their kids in?? This way, the government evolves into an overseeing body that regulates the standards for schools and leaves the individual shool boards to administrate and run the system in conjunction with the teachers, parents and whatever association bodies are chosen by the teachers. New parties can enter the market, designing new curriculae, new methods of labour/managment relations, and the driving force will no longer be political ideology, but educational ideology and effectiveness. Do you think that a school could have multiple strikes, or not be able to advance teachers because of merit rather than seniority, and still flourish when the parents had some choices??

Cant be worse than it is now.

I just watched the reports on Global TV. Did anyone else happen to notice how small that class in the private school was???? Ohhh how I wish!!! There were desks for every single child too!! And did you see all those supplies??? Everything looked so new and clean. If you walk down the halls of my school, you will see chipped paint everywhere. The once beautiful wood floor in the gym is now faded and needs to be replaced. I didn't notice any special needs children though. Nor did I notice any children exhibiting behaviour problems (although, to their credit, it was a small snippet). Not for the elite they say lolol. No wonder private school teachers have never had to undergo job action!!!!!!

I wonder if they counted the private school in my town in those numbers they cited. There is only one certified teacher "teaching" in that school. (I say "teaching" because students enrolled in that school work independently through workbooks ... there are no individual, small group, or whole class lessons.) I wonder why they didn't mention the private schools that do NOT follow the prescribed BC curriculum. Surely the private school in my town can't be the only one following an AMERICAN curriculum.

For those that doubt that the Liberals aren't trying to privitize education as they are with our health system, etc. ... what better proof could you have than the free advertising private schools just received on Global TV?????????

David,

Teachers can teach in BC public schools without belonging to the BCTF. I know that for a fact because there was a teacher at our school who didn't belong. She donated the equivalent of her union dues to a charitable organization. And, before you ask, no she was NEVER persecuted by any other teachers or the BCTF.

Yes, the BCTF fought hard to oust the Liberal government in the last election. No, they were not politicking for any particular party. The sign from the BC Fed that was proudly displayed on my lawn during the election campaign read "vote for change" .. it didn't say anything about the NDP.

If teachers and the BCTF don't fight for quality public education for our students, who else will??? I very rarely saw any parent lobbying the government for adequate funding, etc. until this present job action began. Even the provincial PAC was spouting Liberal propaganda. I cannot even begin to count how many times I had parents complaining to me about the lack of supports in place for their special needs children since 2002. Each and every time, I urged parents to contact their MLA and/or the Minister of Education. Only one parent ever told me that she had done just that. Parents told me "If they won't listen to you teachers, why would they listen to me?"

Parents do have the choice in which school they can enroll their children. Sorry, but you were wrong on that too.

The provincial governments have always, for some strange reason, felt that they knew best when designing curriculum. We've often had to change curriculum each time there was a new Minister of Education. Any teacher could tell you about the millions of dollars wasted for the "Primary Program".

Holy cow! I just watched the Global supper hour news for the first time since last May. No wonder so many posters here are confused! Can the media be charged with hate crimes against a particular group? Inciting a riot? Deliberately undermining the public good? Does it hurt them to suck that hard? Did Bill Good look embarassed by it all or was that just wishful thinking on my part? If nothing else, the set-up, the hook, and the drift toward the final message ("Public bad; private good") will make a great lesson in media studies if I ever go back to work again. Thank God Ron Erwin's grandkids are safe behind the private school walls and won't be subjected to it.

Where does one go for "reporting" in this province?

Now I understand some of the anti-teacher, anti-BCTF, anti-public education views expressed above a lot better.

Here's my advice if you're not excited about the ways in which teachers are now enacting their convictions: turn off your television before it's too late. Your children are at risk!

One supper hour newscast from Global and I'm ready to give up hope.... Going to a rally to get my hope back again now.

The unofficial public opinion poll from the lines today, as counted by honks/waves/doughnuts/etc. was 90+% with and less than 10% against.

This is the endgame of public education in this province, folks. Don't let us down now!

I am thinking that taxpayers should be quite concerned that half of the cost of running those private schools is being paid by the the rest of us, but we are certainly not reaping the benefits.

How could that public money be put to use in public schools? Perhaps private schools should be private.

The government recently announced $9.3 million for special needs students, $8.3 million to private schools (10% of the population) and $1 million to the 90% in public schools.

Note to spedteacher and the many other patient, articulate, and rational posters above...

Thank-you for taking the time to describe in detail what's really going on in the world of public education. My wife and I (both teachers) recognize that this is service above and beyond the call of duty and we greatly appreciate the time you put into the defence of the public good.

We have concluded that if the public wants our heads in this battle, we will leave our heads at the door and move on. We are no longer so patient as to explain what has seemed apparent to us for at least four years: there is a movement afoot to castigate, undermine, and privatize public education. No shock there to many posters above.... But thanks for saying it better than we have time for at the moment. And thanks even more for your actions to support us.

Don't underestimate the media role in all this for a moment.

I was called today by a Province reporter in response to a letter I wrote to the editor. She spent the entire interview trying every approach imaginable to get me to say that our family and our child were being hurt or inconvenienced by the strike. I kept replying that it wasn't a big deal, that we were coping fine and that we were far more concerned about the larger issues that the teachers have highlighted. She was not interested and finally said she'd check back to see if I was still as positive after having my child home for three weeks.

Anyone who still thinks that Global and the other CanWest media are more than a front for BC Liberal propaganda (i.e. joined at the hip to Premier Campbell's "issues management team") will be sorely disappointed.

Does anyone know the funding that the province pays to parents who send their kids to private schools?? Is it a direct subsidy, or a tax reduction???

Thanks for your insights spedteacher, I stand corrected. Sounds like you have exhaustive experiences and insights into the job. If you were queen, how would you think the negotiation/development/labour relations could be improved????

"Where does one go for "reporting" in this province?"

Well, since Robbins shamelessly plugs his company... can I suggest Citytv? We may be third in the ratings, we may have a miniscule budget, but hey, we're not blatantly biased. Our coverage to date has been as truly 'fair and balanced' as any you're going to get in this mess. Of course, we don't cover much outside of the Lower Mainland and Victoria, but give us a try. What do you have to lose other than the dizziness you get from the Global/CTV spin?

I watched a bit of Global tonight. Nonsense. But despite the typical media bias, my sense is that the public - or perhaps parents with kids in public schools at least - have a good sense of the forces at play here, and support the teachers. Gord Campbell said there would be no strike, didn't he? But maybe I should just speak for myself: I support the teachers, and see this as nothing less than civil disobedience in defence of public education itself. I support public education.

The liberals throw the terms "legal" and "rule of law" out when it suits them, but anyone who has even been only slightly following the events in BC over the last few years will recognize this hypocrisy: One sided stripping of contractual rights by legislation - again and again and again... removal of effectual collective bargaining and the right to stirke, in defiance of international labour conventions, retroactive pay decreases and other expropriations, &c.&c. These are not the actions of a government concerned with the rule of law. These are the actions of a bully.

What pisses me off as much as anything about this mess is the fact there are several hundred politicians elected in BC who claimed they really cared for education when they ran for office.

I speak of all the school district trustees across this province, who have said absolutely nothing about this dispute.

Not one has stood up and demanded real negotiations take place or even contemplated taking the government to court for its blatant efforts to beat up an adversary at the expense of children.

Why?

Why were they elected?

Did they not realize we have a government that is commited to breaking the teachers' union and boosting private ed?

If they didn't realize that they might reply and tell me what hole they had their heads stuck in for the past five years.

School trustees are the only people who can really go to bat for education in BC, but it appears most of them have filled their pants with something contemplating what the premier might do to them if they actually do what people elected them to do.

I think all trustees ought to hang their heads in shame for allowing this situation to deteriorate.

Please don't give me the excuse that trustees don't have the power to force change.

They have the power of those who elected them and that is all they need.

It's great that we are attracting all these right wing whackos as it shows stories here and the contributions on this reply board are getting to them.

But I just wish one of them had a clue about labour relations practice or history. But then, when the polls show your hero really screwed up like on this mess, I can see why they are trying to cloud the issues.

Some of them are almost rabid. Do a smell fear?

cuinn, if you'r really disgusted with the broadcasters in the lower mainland I suggest you e-mail the Canadian Broadcast Standards Council at cbsc.ca.
And to some of you above:
they came for the doctors..and I was silent
they came for the health care workers..and I was silent
they came for the prosecutors..and I was silent
they came for the teachers.. and I was silent
They came for the labourers..and I was silent
Now they are coming for me and there is no one left to speak.

cuinn: You are more than welcome!! I am glad to do my part. I had surgery Thurs. and can't move around too much so I have time to sit at my computer lol.

David: Although it made me giggle, I have no wish to be queen, thank you very much lolol. I don't profess to be an expert in governing but I do know about my own job and profession. 5 years of university and 18 years on the job certainly don't make me an expert, but it does give me some knowledge about our public school system.

As far as improving bargaining relations .... to have a government (or queen lolol) actually be willing to participate in negotiations would be refreshing, don't you think? We could always return to teachers bargaining directly with their school boards. I know that was very successful in the Prince George school district back in the day when Shirley Bond was on our Board. Thanks again for the giggle!!!

Stump: I would gladly watch CityTV if we could get it up here but I will pass the word on to my family and friends on the Lower Mainland!!!

Alan: I can't presume to speak for the Trustees around the province who have remained quiet. Although their silence does confuse me since both Gordon Campbell and Shirley Bond have publicly laid the blame on all of this on their shoulders. (Certainly couldn't expect the government to take any responsibility, can we???) I do, however, have a guess about why all but one of the current Prince George trustees are remaining quiet. Shirley Bond and John Rustad were both former members of our Board. Both of them are now MLAs. From what I understand, there are one or two other Trustees considering a career in provincial politics. I would imagine they don't want to make ol' Gordo mad at them. Sad huh?

Allen, I am pleased to report that at today's rally in Vancouver, a Van School Board trustee read out the letter that the school board has sent to De Jong (interesting it's sent to him ,and only cc'd to Shirley Bonds and Gordo). The letter spoke strongly against the legislation, and urges the govt to reopen talks witht the teachers. He mentioned two other school districts that he knows of (Coquitlam, and one other I can't remember) that are sending similar letters. Hopefully, more school districts will follow.

Dear cuinn:

Next time you rant about the media, get the right station. Bill Good does not appear on Global, so there goes your Canwest conspiracy theory. Bill Good is on CTV. So you were watching the wrong channel all through your outrage.

Next time, remember: Global's on 11, CTV's on 9.

They are pretty much the same though, the faces on one used to be the backups on the other.

So tune in to CTV to watch right-wingers who weren't good enough to unseat Tony Parsons.

It boggles my mind that people keep saying that the problem in the bargaining process is the BCTF.

Please remember that prior to 1991, I believe, BC did not have any form of provincial bargaining for teachers. There was local bargaining, between the local union executive (representing the BCTF if you will) and the local school board. It seemed to work, or at least, the bargaining process seemed to work. A little give & take on both sides.

It has only been since provincial bargaining was imposed that there has been a problem. The BCPSEA became our employer (for purposes of bargaining), bargaining with the BCTF.

Since the beginning, the process has been flawed as each school board had a different contract, a different salary grid, different benefits and clauses. It proved a nightmare & eventually, after a lot of wasted time, both sides agreed not to touch certain items, to leave others (non-cost items) for local boards to settle, and to bargain others provincially.

Previously, when bargaining did seem to work, boards submitted budgets to the ministry of education, based on need. They could actually budget for a salary increase or for costs associated with improvements to class-size language. When they changed how boards were funded (around the same time that funding seemed to dry up in the schools), giving them a set amount regardless of local need, that is also when the bargaining process seemed to reach a standstill.

And now the BCPSEA is in the same predicament. They are not allowed to discuss class size & composition as it was legislated out of the contract. They have a 0-0-0 mandate for salary. And the 0-0-0 mandate also impacts any other cost items that the teachers may wish to bargain.

So tell me, is it the BCTF? Is it the BCPSEA? Is it forced provincial bargaining? Or is the real problem the constant interference of government in the bargaining process?

The problem is Campbell. He simply doesn't believe in public education. Neither do any of the right-wingers posting here since their kids are all in taxpayer subsidized private schools where class sizes are small and special needs kids aren't allowed.

I am very happy the CBC strike is over we don't have to listen to the talking heads like good and the rest of the paid hacks, might be able to get some real reporting and reasonably unbiased news now that a el gordo type liberal is no longer at the helm.

Tried listening to those fools at cfax and they just pissed me off, tried raif but I still don't like him from when he was a socred!

hey martin there isn't anything to rant about the media really they are bought and paid for with an ajenda and yes they will manipulate the truth, most intelligent people know this!

The Sooke school trustees have come out publicly in favour of supporting the teachers.

Our trustees here in the Gulf Islands School District have shown to have no backbone at all. We had the 4 day school week forced upon us last year despite over half the community against. They just didn't have the balls to go over budget. Apparently they would be fired.

This 4 day was not a problem for Gordo & his gang to support. No mention of hardship on parents etc. Hypoctrites.

Stump-shameless or not, we really are trying to be part of the solution, not just here but in general in despinning the media. Our first despin was Bill Vander Zalm in South Delta and Bill is someone I personally like.

We despun Reform BC, and I was a Reform member.
We do have a business model, and part of that is to despin a level of propaganda in this country that is beyond disconcerting.

The only way to do this with any real ummmph is to take real snapshots of the public opinion. We have to plug the company so that readers here and there hopefully go and see what we have done, so they can realize that we are attempting to add value here.

Although it might be a shameless in the sense that it is obvious, I would hope you might reconsider because our 'shame' is without too much pretense. Its honest to goodness shame.

This is very interesting reading for 4 am. The teachers of this province deserve an ovation for taking on this fight to prevent the destruction of our public school system. It is about time someone stood up to the fat cat lackeys we have in Victoria claiming to represent the people of B.C. I just hope that the BC Fed and the rest of the Unions of BC can, this time, show the courage to give the support needed to carry this to its conclusion. The HEU is still reeling from the shock of being deserted in its hour of need. This Governments heavy handed and unjust treatment of the working people of BC has to be stopped. If it takes civil disobedience then so be it. If supported in the right way the teachers can accomplish now what should have been done when the HEU rank and file were willing. To the teachers out there, keep the faith and all the power to you.

Rafe at just about his most simplistic. An eminently trite and forgettable piece .

Though teachers and the rest of us who support them may want to pay thoughtful and vigilant attention to this quote above, from HEU member GWNorth.

And remember Solidarity in 1983.

Be wary of over-reliance on the trade union bureaucray. They tend to have their own agenda as well. Rely rather on yourselves, be aware of the possibility of treachery, and build alliances with the great working class public, many of whom are and will be there to support you.

Note to Martin:
It was Global I watched. Don't know if it was Bill Good or not. It was the name I should have checked.

The CanWest Conspiracy Theory, by the way, is no longer a theory. The bias can be measured and proven with evidence when compared to other sources.

David' you asked how much money the Provincial Covt. gives to parents who have children in private schools. The answer is $00.00.
We should get a tax break for this as we are paying taxes to support the public shool system that we are not even using as well as tuition for the private school.
This is why I support the voucher system.

Hmmmm....Mr. Raife misses the key point: the scope of the impartial arbitrator would be determined by existing law. So arbitration just begs the question. If Mr. Raife proposes that the solution is to make class sized bargainable issues, what's the need for arbitration? I'm puzzled.

Although their civil disobedience may ultimately benefit the working class, the short term effect of the teacher's strike harms the poor more than anyone else.

To second Frank, a few postings above, the rich are not affected because private school teachers are not part of this walkout.

I would also say that the middle class people (like myself) are in reasonably good shape because, at least for a few days, we can afford child care alternatives and/or can stay home -- which I am doing today.

Which leaves the poor kids.

One of the arguments against cutting the hot meal program in the Vancouver inner city was that, for a substantial number of children, this is about the only nutritious food they get.

What's happening to them?

As for the child-care component, this really is an essential service for low-income families. The McJob is not going to give you extensive family related leave. You may or may not have any dough for paid care. You may or may not have any relatives to pitch in. It is certain that a lot of kids are home alone right now, who are too young to be unsupervised.

I would hope the union has a good spin ready in case some kid, you know, burns the house down and dies. "It's Campbell's fault," they could say, and perhaps that is fair. It just seems like a risk.

Those of you without elementary-age kids may now contentedly sneer.

Regarding the cost of private education, Mr. Erwin is a bit off with the 0% number, although parents get no cirect "cash in the pocket".

The government provides subsidies to the private schools so as to reduce direct costs to parents. I believe it's about 50% of the amount provided to public schools for each student - but is steadily increasing under Gordo. A few weeks ago, when money was added to the budget for special needs students, the private school funding was bumped to 100% for these students. Shirley Bond said this was to ensure that families with special needs kids. could have the choice of a religious education. (See Starcrazy post above for more exact numbers.)

Thanks, Gary, for the suggestion regarding the Canadian Broadcasting Standards Council. I am in the process of filing a complaint now. So who was that guy I took to be Bill Good? Tony Parsons?

Mr. Erwin is a bit off???? That's charitable.

Mr. Erwin forgets that the shrink that deals with his inadequacy issues probably went to public school. The surgeon scheduled to pull his head out of his ass probably went to public school. The financial planner that has turned a drivel-spouting windbag into a one of the wealthiest men to ever not have a clue probably went to public school.

Honestly Erwin, if you're going to be a one-trick pony at least learn the trick well enough that we can't see the vacuous little man pulling the levers behind the curtain a la "The Wizard of Oz". Sheesh, you really believe the old adage that if you tell a lie enough times it becomes a truth don't you?

Stump........

so ronny the american from alberta has his spawn in private school? Why should we support private schools since you have the right to put your kids in public school! I support the teachers and am quite willing to do so with my cheque book!

Yammer, that's what teachers are fighting for...a public education system that includes all children, educates all children, and addresses the needs of all children. Not the exclusive privatization of schools that is the Campbell Liberals agenda.

So there must be strength shown here, not weakness if we are going to stay the course in this struggle.

I would suggest you do what you can to help out one of those poor families in a personal way.

When you ask "What's happening to them?", I understand your concern, but you are expecting someone else to do something.

You don't get it.

You must do something.

And so must I.

Help out wherever you can.

The teachers are doing their part by bravely taking this stand. The rest of us must do ours.

This ain't going to be easy.

Lynn - Hi. What else should I be doing? Good question. I could make a lot of rationalizations but that does make me think.

so Ursus, that Swede from Saskatchewan is willing to open his cheque book to support teachers. I think it's great for him or her ???????? to have that right.
I reserve my right to use my cheque book to support my grandchildren to go to private school. I get no subsidy from Ursus to do this. Yet Ursus expects me to subsidize his rights with my tax dollars.
How do we square this circle ?

Stump' talk about a one trick pony . It's kinda like the pot calling the kettle black, isn't it ?
Your views are consistent and so are mine. So please come up with something more intelligent than that to say.

actually ronny my family were Pioneers in this Province, you pay taxes to support a public school system why not use it, help to make it work for everyone, become part of the solution instead of being a neo con elitist supporting private schools!

Do you think yours are to good for the public school system? Don't worry lots of the kids on the streets of Victoria are from oak bay, spoiled little rich kids acting out against their parents.

ronny if you don't pay any taxes you don't get any services period is this what you want to have no services, if you are unhappy with the taxes in B.C. why don't you leave sell your shack and move to the states where there are lots of privitisation freaks, or alberta!

Do you really think that if you paid no taxes had no roads to drive on no hospitals except pay as you go, no government agencies police armed forces etc that you would be better off? Why don't you move to a third world country, we wouldn't miss you and take your drunken friend with you!

there you go ronny two choices, I think the last one is your best option, and ours!

Gail and Spedteacher, it is good to hear that some school districts are writing letters to the minister and premier.

They ought to be delivering that message through the media, although perhaps they have tried and been ignored.

Regardless, if trustees stood up in a few communities and started to apply the pressure that they have as elected officials, the message to Gordo et/al would be far more effective.

I suspect parents, teachers and anyone else who values their community but isn't blinded by idealogy, would rush to stand beside school trustees who speak out for a rational approach to education.

Perhaps teachers or even better, parents should start to ask their local school trustees what they are doing to try to resolve this mess.

If the answer is a "poor me, my hands are tied" whine, then target the trustee for political extinction in next month's school board elections.

What good is a politician who hides behind another politician's dirty linen?

Within weeks the school trustee election process is to begin province-wide with opportunities for parents to force current trustees to straighten their backbones for a few minutes.

Don't let them off the hook. If nothing else, perhaps some of these weasels who care more about their trustee stipends than school children can then go and cash their final stipend cheques.

NEWS FLASH from theg Globe&Mail this morning. Finance minister Carole Taylor has informed the G&M's editorial board her province is flush with money after a couple of years of good royalties off the resource sectors, but bad times might creep up at any time so education, which isn't a priority with her or any of her colleagues, is on the back burner along with ferry refits.

Now I see why CBC is in such a bloody mess. Apparently Ms. Taylor had other priorities there as well.

OK. It's been explained to you why the voucher system doesn't work the way you wish it would. In fact, it's been pointed out that where it has been instituted it isn't working. But you won't change your view or acknowledge your error. Your contention that because you don't use public schools you deserve a tax break is laughable and you know it. If you're going to take us as fools don't expect anything other than mockery. I don't mind you having consistent views, but those views have consistently discounted haven't they? And yet, you persist. Finally, you're quick to take the piss out of others who don't share your views and yet we have to treat you with kid gloves? I'm not going to mine through all the previous posts you've made that are chock-full of insults and so forth just to make my point and once again have you deny the obvious.

Ron Erwin, I am the parent of a child in the public school system and the government gives me $0.00, as well.

Taxpayers fund the school system which benefits all, eventually.

The government has increased funding 34% to the private schools vs. 3.4% to the public schools. It has downloaded public school costs and the public schools cannot charge fees.

A starved public education system leads to an uneducated public which leads to high crime rates and a have/have not society.

Even if you get your voucher system, you'll need far more money than that for home security.

The people stuck in New Orleans during Katrina, the poorest, for the most part, lived in an area with a 25% high school graduation rate. It doesn't work! Much better to have a little less cash and neighbours who are well treated.

I'll be tuning into citytv tonight. Also, writing the sponsers on global and making a link between biased reporting and not buying their product works if they get enough letters.

re the tax issue, Ron. As one who is childless and willingly pays taxes to support a public school system because of the benefits of society among other reasons, I REFUSE to pay taxes towards a voucher system or so that someone can send their child to a school that preaches hatred, or for that matter for my friend, who doesn't need it, to have a subsidy towards York House.

Benefits TO society as well as commas...

You know, this morning, I am really angry at the way this pretend government is smearing teachers, who are givers in society, by a bunch of vulgar crooks in Victoria. I am getting really angry.

I truly believe we will see some of them arrested eventually, just as the Bush administration is about to be. I have faith in the RCMP to find out and do something about this corruption.

Yammer: Do you not understand that teachers are fighting for ALL of their students?

I live in a pulp mill town. The average income is very high but we still have quite a few students who come to school hungry (no matter how much some parents make sometimes paying for beer and coke is far more important to some) and I am very concerned about who's caring for these children when they're not at school. But I can't, in good conscience, go back to work without a negotiated contract. Teachers are looking at the big picture here. Yes, parents are inconvenienced and I apologize for that. But if we achieve the smaller class sizes, more supports for special needs students, more teacher-librarian time, etc., ALL students in BC will benefit. Yes, there is an inconvenience while the job action continues but blame the government. Mr. Campbell doesn't even think this is an important enough issue to return to BC to resolve it!!! The BCTF bargaining team is available 24/7. What else do you want us to do??? I parent and counsel my students while they are at school, provide treats and food when they need it, give clothes that my daughter has grown out of to one of my students, I have cared for an autistic student in my own home for over a month while her parent got his life "back on track". Oh yeahhh and I teach them academic, social and life skills that will help them to become contributing members of our society too!! But now I want better conditions for my students at school and I'm willing to fight as hard as the situation demands to achieve those goals.

People who are concerned about the children during this job action could always organize community daycare and/or activities. You may have seen all the programs already in place to provide daycare that they've shown on TV. But it's not my task to care for these children now because I am too busy fighting in defense of our public education system. It's the parents' turn to parent.

Will the same people who are criticizing and even suing the BCTF because teachers are no longer providing free daycare be happy if their children are in even larger classes next year with even less supports?? Or will they just be happy they don't have to worry about where their children are during the day? If they want to be reimbursed for the extra costs of daycare, tell them to lobby the government. They are raking in the cash right now. The average teacher is losing more money per day during this job action than it would cost for daycare. Tell the government to dip into the general coffers (where all this extra cash is going) and they can pay for the daycare. After all, if the government had just tried to negotiate (as opposed to legislate) before this all came to a head, none of us would be in this situation!!!!

I am very sorry if I sound callous in this post but I find it difficult to understand why people can't see the big picture here. Although it warms my heart to see my students come to the picket line to show their support, I miss them very much. I want to be back at work. But I DON'T want to be going back to an inferior school system. Tell the government it's time to put kids first and the 2010 Olympics second, please!!!!!!

Allan,

Here's my email to our Trustees. What do you think? Maybe they'll even listen lololol

Dear Trustees,

I am writing to you in regards to the current teachers' job action.

I have always been so very proud to be employed by School District #57. I am proud and very appreciative of the fact that our Board continually supplements the inadequate funding for special education that the government provides. I am proud of the fact that, when teacher contract negotiations were conducted locally (as they should be), our Board and the PGDTA were able to negotiate contracts rather successfully. But I am so very saddened by your silence in this current situation. I see the news of various School Boards around BC showing support for public education. Why is it that ours has not? You must know what the impact of your support would be. You are, after all, members of a school board that once had Shirley Bond as one of its trustees. Surely you realize that the majority of people who even bother to vote for School Board Trustees are school district employees? I know of one Trustee who will have my vote (along with many other teachers) in the upcoming civic elections. Please make it easy for me to vote for the rest of you. Please make us (teachers and parents alike) proud of the stand our Trustees are willing to take in defense of public education.

To those of you choosing not to run for another term, I thank you very much for the efforts you have on behalf of our students and our school district as a whole.

To those of you running for re-election, thank you for continuing your tenure in public office. I know it's not an easy job.

ursus' you are always asking me to move to the Us or Alberta, why ? I live here and have the right to try and change things to the more consevative views that I have. Do I tell you to move to Venezuala or Cuba ?
No, I don't, even though I wish you would.

Louise' I have no idea what you are talking about.

SpedTeacher;

My turn again, lol!

http://www.bced.gov.bc.ca/accountability/district/revenue/0506/pdf/table08.pdf

The above reference provides a snapshot of the 05/06 education budget. $4.2 billion bucks. Now what is missing is the breakdown of how many Principals, Vice Principals, teachers, etc.

But never the less the numbers do appear on a global scale is the largest funding ever provided to education. Just about every year the education budget has increased, an amount over the cpi. So what needs to be increased and by how much?

well let me see ronny could it be that I am fed up with your arrogance and stupidity, your blatant support of right wing neo con b.s. that would have sell this country to the americans in a heartbeat? You stand for everything I think is wrong with el gordo and his corrupt government, you support ripping up contracts you insult people and yet we can't do anything to shut you up.

Yes I would like to see you move to a third world country to get a taste of that which you seem to crave no taxes and no services instead of whining repeatedly like taxpayer moron about paying taxes.

I pay a lot of taxes and my wife pays huge taxes with her business, we are not angry about paying taxes but we are pissed at the drunk for the way he is spending our tax dollars and you can't tell me that he is any better then the NDP unless you are making over 300k a year. This is known as corporate welfare and welfare for the rich at our expense! He made a lot of promises and they have become nothing but lies and you support him so I think you are a few bricks short! It is that simple!

Put your money where your mouth is and move, try living in a tax free zone with no hospitals or doctors, how about the congo for a few decades!

I did not know whether to laugh or cry when I heard Mike de Jong say that he did not know what all this talk was regarding negotiating.. "There is a contract in place". Is this guy so brain dead that he does not realize that it was he who legislated this "contract" into place without any real discussions with the teachers? Me thinks he does, but chooses to mistakenly hope that the public does not catch this...

The other statement I cringe at, is when he asks "What kind of an example is this for the kids?" This coming from a government that has a convicted criminal as the lead hand... I'll back a teacher long before I stand beside, and heaven forbid - in front of, a drunk driver.

Yes, the gov't is spending the largest amount ever on education to ill effect, thus proving they are the 'largest ever' incompetents.

how much do we allow el gordo to waste on stupid little projects like his 24 million dollar web portal, more like state welfare for a few insiders in my opinion and this is not the exception, more like the rule.

What about the raid on the ledge, are they ever going to let the public know what the hell is going on, if this were the NDP the neo cons would be up in arms, so would the media, no bias there eh!

Why is it ok with you supporters that he give B.C. Rail to C.N. just before the news that the northeast is going to be shipping coal, how much did we lose in revenue there but it is not ok to treat teachers with respect and pay them a decent wage with class sizes that are not to big.

Global is making a lot of hay over the less than spectacular turnout by BCTF members for the actual walkout vote. The theory is that if only a little over 50% of the BCTF membership voted, they seem to think that means nearly 50% did not want to walkout. Wrong! It means that the nearly 50% who did not vote felt it was a foregone conclusion slipping over from the first vote that walking out is the only choice remaining. If there were any BCTF members who really did not want to walk out, they would definitely have voted.

If the Government feels that this means the BCTF does not have a mandate from its members, then I welcome the Government to set a good example and step down from their mandate from an election where a little over 60% of the province voted giving them an actual mandate of around 40% of the vote.

Mike Dejong reminds me of every school yard bully I have ever seen.... beating up kids and stealing their lunch money, then proclaiming total innocence when confronted.
Talk about the cat that ate the canary!

Doesn't anyone else find it alarming that the employer and the BC Government value teachers so little?

For godsake, teachers are responsible for our children throughout their formative years.

Do we ourselves value teacher so little?

I'm not a lefty and not a teacher, but I'm very pissed off at the BC Liberals' brinksmanship.

We need a

mediamatters.org

for Canada.

Spedteacher, get that letter copied and CCd to as much of the media as possible.

If I might, I'd also suggest you add a copy of your reply to Yammer as it puts a lot more context into what you are facing.

That trustees cannot see or will not acknowledge that the government's actions have been a sham from day one speaks poorly about the choices voters have made in past elections.

You know, there is something really sad about a so-called democracy in which a government can simply change the laws to get their way while the courts, including the BC Supreme Court act as little more than handmaidens for these thugs.

It truly points out our system is little better than a dictatorship between elections and that the courts see very little wrong with that.

Perhaps Mr. Justice Wally Opal.. No, he's now one of them and operating as government's chief legal hammer, isn't he.

How friggin' convenient.

Allan' the govt. can legally pass a law banning red hats if it wants to. That's our system, it's called democracy. A judge must uphold that law, he has no choice.
There is nothing illegal in what the govt. is during during this wildcat illegal strike.
The BCTF however has instructed their members to continue this strike inspite of the fact that it's against the law.
A Victoria lawyer has filed a class action law suit against the BCTF on behalf of parents who have incurred costs or lost their jobs during this strike.
I hope the BCTF doesn't have deep pockets to pay for the inevitible fines and costs associated with this strike ( or is it a lockout like the TWU said )
The only thing you can do is elect a new govt. next time. Remember the NDP lost the last two elections. I know that's hard for you to belive, but it's true.
The govt. is acting on behalf of the majority of people who bothered to vote.

Allan, good news! New Westminster trustees are sending a letter supporting teachers rights to bargain, and a Richmond trustee on the Bill Good show this morning, spoke strongly about the struggles of teachers and school boards with the current funding. Unfortunately, she didn't go so far as to say whether the Board is sending a letter, but the number of trustees around the province are beginning to speak up! Watch for the numbers to increase in the next few days.

Actually, Ron. The government did break the law when the ripped up our contract and declared education an essential service back in 2001. When the BCTF took them to court, the judge ruled that to be the case. That was when the government changed the law so now their ripping up of our contract is legal.

Gail' you don't understand the system of government you are living under. In our system the govt. can make any laws they want to.
If they are deemed to have broken a law they simply use the power we gave to them when we elected them to pass yet another law getting them off the hook.
How else would you do it ?

I try not to respond to idiots anymore, but I will make this one exception Ron.

I didn't mention anything about legal actions. I was referring to ethical and moral actions, something I ought to forgive you for not being up to speed on I guess.

However, I do wonder, if you have or had children, how you explained to them what was right and what was wrong.

Did you tell them it's ok to beat the crap out of smaller kids in the schoolyard as long as no one with any authority was around to see?

I don't give a tinker's damn about whether the actions of this government were legal.

As Gail mentions above, this government's legal actions leave much to be desired, but their moral actions of attempting to pit students and parents against their educators and of using their unfettered powers to break whoever they wish, is repugnant and something we would expect out of a third world or American political system.

That you can't or won't see that means I probably under-described the real you in my opening comment in this reply.

Ron the simple fact is that we have a bunch of sore losers who are trying to fight the last election. They figure a union that has less than 1% of BC's population should hold more power than a democratically elected government.

New Westminster school board has no credibility to complain about anything. They complain about not enough special ed teachers yada yada. Then, they spend $1 million on a language business in China. How many special ed teachers would that have been worth?

Alan' where is the morality in the BCTF encouraging, in fact ordering teachers to break the law ? I don't get your point about the American political system. It's way more democratic than ours in every way. It's the model for all democracies to achieve.

True to an extent.

But as I have mentioned here previously, current capitalist society consitently elects governments with voter participation rates no, or not much greater than that of BCTF. Voter participation rates have been consistently declining, federally and provincially, since 1984-, the year after Operation Solidarity coincidentally. Or not? (I posted some govt. web sites here yesterday revealing the extent of these declining voter participation rates. Which are still about somewhere on one of these threads.)

We can speculate about the reasons for these declining electoral and other participation rates, of course, throughout capitalism, including trade unions, but my own view is that they are a measure of the declining confidence masses of citizens have in the usefulness of elections, in both the capitalist State and in trade unions.

The former is more and more being seen by masses of people as an institution monopolized by parties, all of them more or less, that regardless of which you vote for, they effectively wind up bending to the will of that class which controls the capitalist economy and its politics anyway. A manifestation of the reality that he who controls the economy, effectively controls the state and its electoral system outcomes, whatever. You got a deep enough pocket of cash and control of the economic levers, you can buy the cooperation of just about anyone or anything, even parties that are ostensibly of "the opposition". All will bend to your will, in the end. And do.

Trade unions on the other hand, over the same period, I think, have come to be seen as vacillating, weak and definitely ineffective at stemming the tide of neoconservative economic and political policy. And which themselves have been in decline as an effective force defending working class interests, again since around Operation Solidarity 1983/84. One doesn't need trade unions to negotiate wage and working conditions rollbacks. One can do that all by themself, without having to pay dues or attend boring, often likewise tightly controlled meetings.

So both the capitalist state and the trade unions rooted in them, and having much come over the immediate post ww2 period to see themselves as a part and parcel of capitalism, are both paying the voter participation rate price for the diminished way they have both come to be seen by the mass of people. Both are in a crisis of confidence-, for large numbers of folks voting with their feet, at least until something significant happens to change that.

Is this it, for either party?

We shall see.

If it is yet just another 1983 echo/ false hopes defeat, in my opinion, it's likely back to the drawing board and a further extended period of decline, for the more formal than real "democratic" capitalist State, for unions and for the standard of living and quality of life of the working class masses.

I got this from a new website, I think this shows that Shirley Bond and the rest of this provincial government is trying to union bust. As well her comments about the BCTF not acting in the interests of teachers because only 50% of the members voted, even at that with 90.5% of them saying yes you still have support of more then 45% of the members. The liberals only have 26.1% support of the province, I guess they aren't acting in the interests of the rest of us then!!!

VANCOUVER (CP) — B.C. Education Minister Shirley Bond says her government will do all it can to protect teachers who want to cross illegal picket lines in front of B.C. schools.

Only about 50 per cent of the province’s teachers voted on the ballot that asks if the union should take illegal strike action.

Bond said its clear there are a lot of teachers in the province who want to be back in their classrooms.

The minister said “it’s time that the B.C. Teachers’ Federation actually listened to the voice of, not just parents, but many classroom teachers, who are expressing that view.”

We need the BCTF to be the pitbulls of the BC Fed . . . how else will we get our point across that orgainized labour should be running the province. We can't win at the ballot box, but because our cause is just and we know we are right, we have to resort to other means to get control, to exercise power.

It doesn't matter that only 46% of the eligable teachers voted at all and that Ms. Sims had been lying to the people about "over 90% of the teachers in the BCTF voted to strike". She was caught lying in the last election with the great TV adds, you know xxx schools closed, yyy libraries closed . . make you think that the Liberals were meanies.

Except the ads left out the most important piece if of information 40,000 FEWER students in the system.

An oversight ? A lie ? . Go figure.

Actually Merv as I noted in my previous post the actual popular vote would be 26% not 40%.

Ron Erwin, you certainly do fit aptly into my earlier description.

Look pal, I don't know what planet you've been hiding on but you've got the process a bit backwards so quit standing on your brain and stand up.
The BCTF has not ordered teachers to break the law. Teachers voted to order their union, to follow their lead and facilitiate the shutting down of schools across BC.

I encourage you to go and live in that great 'democracy' south of here and stay as long as you can.

BTW, isn't that the country that left its poor to fend for themselves in the face of hurricane Katrina's violence?

Some model.

But where are the MEDIA? Have they no skills, at all? It's such a great question; OK, DeJong, if you don't like the BCTF figures, what are you and your pals doing running BC; by your yardstick you have no mandate to run the province whatsoever!

The BCTF's figures are fine - they're real. 88% vote to strike, 90.5% to strike from those that turned up at the final meeting - where all had been invited individually to attend and told of the importance of the meeting.

Who knows about those who didn't attend? We can speculate but the picket lines will tell the tale.

Right now, the percentage of teachers picketing is HIGHER than 90.5%!!!

The public sector employees and many others in this province want DEMOCRACY!!!!

You should have said the public sector employees only want democracy when it suits their interests.

Allan' your reference to Katrina is flawed. Both the Mayor and the Governor of Luisiana are Democrats. Louisiana is in fact a blue state.
It was those local authorities who scrwed up. Where were the problems in Mississippi ?
And as a side fact there are 7 high schools in New Orleans that have never sent a student on to a secondary education. How can the Mayor and Governor not be appaled by this. Why haven't they taken any action ?

Who cares about what the voting pattern. What I want to know is how do we fix it.

I say that there is enough money in the current education budget to ddeal with the issues. It seems though, that no one wants to look at the real issues and talk about how we can optimize the funding allocation.

Again, the education budget has gone up measurably over that last 15 years. School Districts have grown as well. There has to be waste that is unnecessary. There must be programs that are really not required. There must be better cost solutions.

Just to sit back and say we need to increase the budget by some 35% is not the answer.

The provincial Liberals were democratically elected to decide how to spend our tax dollars, NOT THE BCTF. The BCTF should have zero say in how educational funding is allotted, and while they are busy hiding behind children these "professionals" should be fined, jailed, and subsequently dismissed. Teachers and other public sector union sheep should run for public office if they want to get their hands on the treasury; otherwise their transparent attempts to gorge at the taxpayer's trough will ensure me ample comic relief.

P.S. Sorry you guys lost the last two elections.

Rescind the tax breaks to the rich and powerful, and restore public funding to its previous Neoconazi Lib levels. The fundamental problem, at the root of everything is, the ruling class takes more than its equitable share out of the total economic product, and leaves behind poverty, declinging working class share and inadequately funded "public" infrastructure in the the medical and education system etc. etc. for the rest of us in the great mass of society.

And declining income share for everyone else to live on and provide demand pull on the economy. In its place a global export driven economy is what you get to stimulate production, as the capitalist alternative to decent wages that actually stimulate economic activity at home, forcing the working class of our society to compete with cheap, slave labour areas of global capitalism, to which they turn, wherever and whenever practicable.

So the problem is neither rooted in the demands of teachers or what the working class generally has been taking out of the total economic product as a share, over the period since the rise of Neoconazi Capitalism in the late '70s, favoured by the SDGreen camp. Installed in place instead since the great restraint period of Harris and Bill Bennet, and fine tuned by the Fiberals, is a new Capitalist Order that protects the ruling class share. So it is rooted much deeper than the SDGreens are prepared to even look at, in an inequitable wealth distribution and class system in the first place, followed by an inequitable tax structure that similarly favours the ruling class wealthy, and foists greater and greater infrastructure cost share onto the declining income base of the working class.

And where the working class base can't meet the costs of its own infrastructure needs anymore, the State policy of current capitalism is to slash and burn it down to minimal privatized levels-, in order to keep the pressure off themselves and the capitalist State to make greater contributions to the needs of society as a whole. All of which is designed,of course, to further defend and protect the big wealth pools of corporate capitalism over the long haul.

The big problem for them, of course, apparent here in this strike as much as on the downtown east side, and in the growing labour unrest across the country and the system, is getting the great unwashed to be content with that state of societal affairs, and to accept as unchangeable, the ruling class created state of economic and social decline. (The working class accepts it better from the NDP, I concede, even when they slash and burn, for reasons I don't entirely understand. Probably lingering illusions about its "socialism". Perhaps a greater willingness to suspend disbelief for its ancient past record. Afterall, they are supposed to be the good guys, right?)

In any case, the source of the problem comes from within the physicality and character flaws of capitalism itself. Being why they are so intent to shovel the responsibilitty for capitalism's increasingly evident failure, off onto its victims.

redrivergirl: as I don't have the beneit of TV and usually rely on my information in electronic print, I was wondering if you could post the sponsors that you will be boycotting after tonights newscasts. I will definately be boycotting anyone who advertises on the biased news shows.
Also, can anyone on this board tell me if they have seen or heard anything about the BCTF advocating a General Strike. I am sure it isn't true but there was a news headline on Canada.com that stated this. The item I think was attributed to CP. The reason I'm asking is that as I read the article inder the headline, nowhere did it say in the body of the article about a general strike. If this headline is untrue and I can't be pointed to anything that confirms it I will be writing the board.
Also some of you are being baited by some of the posters here and they are using the same BS rhetoric over and over again. I have chosen to IGNORE them.

Do you think the average person doesn't understand when they see the 'education minister' encourage teachers to cross the picket line, rather than she and her gov't sitting down to bargain that this pretend gov't is nothing but a bunch of thugs who are union bashing just like in the 20's when the same types went out to the site to breaking the legs of people who dared to unionize. Only, the baseball bat they're using is the legislature and the corrupted media?

Do you think Canadians don't look South and see the corruption including treason which goes as high as the vice-president and probably above?

And, Ron, how are you liking the case of eminent domain that is playing itself on on water property right now, where people's homes are being stolen for developers. That's the system you admire?

And, Ron, how do you like the latest put forth by the Bush administration taking away tax deductions for morgages and health care from all and making investment income tax free?
You better be really rich to support this gov't without hurting yourself. And, I mean REALLY.

Come on. We're being invaded. We have a pretend gov't complete with treason. Do you think Canadians aren't awakening quickly? Today, I read that our country under the neo-con Martin is leading the push MAKING Peruvian farmers use terminator seeds. Our gov't and the people who support these fascists are busy running around the world destroying a forty year reputation for peace and justice. You dont' really think that bomb that went off in front of our embassy wasn't intended for us, do you?

Sorry, I will be writing the Canadian Broadcast Standards Council.

Gary, I was planning on watching citytv news tonight, but I will watch the 6pm global news. Also, do a google on corporate doners to the BC Liberal party.

Gary, it's okay to answer them because otherwise their arguments are unchallenged. At least this way people who care to can hear the truth via debate. But, don't let them get to you. I was angry this am listening to cknw, but really, I know this trend is on its way out, and that the chickens will come home to roost, in spite of immediate appearances and thus can usually refrain from letting it bother me too much.

gary,

i was at the rally last night and did not hear anyone on the podium talk of a general strike, other than jim sinclair in response to the audience yelling general strike over and over, said something to the effect that that may happen, but he'd rather see a settlement reached by two sides bargaining together, which is what teachers have been asking for all along.

by the way, the audience last night was made up of teachers, cupe, hew and numerous other unions as well as parents, grandparents and students - a good turn-out and it was heartwarming to see and be a part of!

thank you to all who have written in support of teachers - i have taken to skipping all the drivel of those who hate us and reading the positive bits. i figure that at this point, if you don't understand the issues we are protesting about, you'll never know because you don't want to - it doesn't fit into your schema of life.

oh well, pray for sunshine tomorrow, it was very rainy on the picket line today and i don't know of ANY teachers who plan on staying in tomorrow for rain, shirley bond, or even gordon (unless of course they want to negotiate!).

Hey Ron:

The ILO, a United Nations agency mandated to uphold international labour standards, ruled that six B.C. Liberal laws violate fundamental rights that are respected in democracies worldwide. The three that pertain to public education are:

* Bill 18, which declared education an essential service. The ILO recommended this bill be repealed. It says that essential service designation should only be used where life, safety or health of the population is at risk, as in hospital, police or fire services.

* Bill 27, which imposed the teachers’ contract including a raise of 2.5% over each of three years. The Liberals then refused to fund the deal they imposed, prompting $210 million in cuts, 2,000 teacher layoffs and 44 school closures. The ILO says the government should adopt a flexible approach and refrain from imposing contracts.

* Bill 28, which removed provisions limiting class sizes, guaranteeing support for students with special needs, and setting standards of service from specialist teachers. The ILO recommended this bill be amended to allow teachers to negotiate issues that have been imposed unilaterally by the legislation.

canada is a signatory to the UN.

who is breaking the law again?

redrivergirl: thanks in advance. And thanks for the google idea.
Also, the idiots don't get to me. What the problem is, is that some of them talk out of both sides of their mouths with half truths and no coroberation of what they are spewing.Trying to bait some people who are looking for real information. It was just a warning to some. I have plenty of experience with both sides of the table with union and big business. And beleive me I see the big picture. As I posted earlier "Then they came for me...And there was no one left to speak."
spunky: thanks for the info on the rally. It's a pickup. I live 30 miles from the nearest small town and the nearest rally was in Kamloops so it's a bit of a stretch to get to them. Especially with the big petrol companies gouging us for the gas.

you don't hear ronny complaining about big oil do you I found a gas reciept from Burns Lake in Oct 99, .619 a litre has anyones wages gone up this much? I doubt it, I would say supplies are a big expense for schools.

Bought a piece of 1"x2" HSS MS 5' long, two 3" elbows and 6' of 2x2x1/4 angle and it cost me $1.25, not bad eh, I could carry it all under one arm, priced a sheet of aluminum lately?

My point being there are a lot of expenses in the school system besides Teachers but the neo cons like to blame it on the unions and the idiots like ronny are here to back up this viewpoint.

sdgreen,
I am curious, you seem to have the ability to communicate your beliefs rather well. You must have some intelligence to have been able to develop those communication skills. What is your education and experience? Do you work with children? Do you have an education or similar degree? Are you a registered psychologist or a therapist? Are you in the private sector? Were you born into money or are you working to amass it? Are you self-emplyed? Are you employed? A short bio about your life and experience might help us understand how you have come to the beliefs which you hold.

Certainly if you had been a teacher over the last 20 years, you would understand the reason that the vast majority of those who voted, voted for job action. Very few teachers believe as you do. I used to hold more beliefs in common with you before I walked a mile (or 15 years worth of miles) in teachers' shoes. I do not wish to argue with you. I wish to encourage you to get envolved with a public school to see if you can help. There is always more that can be done than gets accomplished by teachers. Capable volunteers are always needed. But volunteers cannot be counted on over the long haul in most schools. Rarely do I get a parent who has time to volunteer anything. Our parent advisory council for a school of 650 students has but 5 members - they can hardly fill all of the executive positions open to them. Outside of coming to their meetings, they rarely offer any help or assistance, they just ask a bunch of questions and accept presentations. My chess club or my students taking action against racism group could use a parent to help keep things together. If you have computer skills, there is always data entry that is not student related that needs to be done. I encourage you to put energy into helping your neighbourhood school.

I don't want to start into the percentage debates that are happening, so lets talk about the real people terms: almost 20,000 real people voted to tell the gov't "we will not return to work till you sit down and negotiate a real contract with us".
Do you really think the executive of the BCTF is going to make them if they don't want to? The courts can? You're gonna fine them? What, you're going to jail 20,000? Chain them to their desks? Sue them for not working for you under an expired contract ? You'd better give your heads a shake if you think you can replace them quickly.
The only solution is to talk, real talking, not refusing to budge an inch then walk out and tell the public that the teachers won't negotiate. Tell me what offers the employers' have been offering other than a belated "we'll have round table later, just work now". They are not indentured servants they have individual and collective rights to refuse to work.
The bottom line, in my eyes, is you might be able to legally force the BCTF to take the contract you cannot force the individual.
So how happy do you think the public is going to be when you force the reignations of thousands of teachers to avoid the fines and jail time? It would be a logistical nightmare to try to replace thousands of them at once(months if not years) and there still would be no school for many if not the majority. Get it?

OOPS! that's resignations...

With a nod of my hat to one of my favourites, redrivergirl. :-)

Just finished a phone call from a (normally) reliable source (Wednesday 5:00 PM) stating that the news media is starting the teacher's crossing picket lines story to set the stage for the BC Liberals under current Standing Order 81, to proceed with Bill 13 which would be a law decertifying the BCTF, and permitting any teacher who has a certificate under the College to apply to teach of the 60 or so Districts in the province. In conjuction with Bill 13, the government would make provisions for better working conditions, class size etc.

This move would be designed I suppose to make teachers think about the $200 a month? they provide to the BCTF, and measured against deals they might make at the District level as an independent contractor. My sources tell me this can be done and right away. It seems pretty complex to me for a rush job, but the politics of it (not the rationality necessarily) might be meaningful.

Seems pretty hifalutin but in general terms of divide and conquer with plenty of unemployed teachers out there, who knows?

just watched keith baldrey on global or whatever it is, don't know or care as I never watch them, just wanted to see what the talking heads were saying about the teachers strike.

Didn't surprise me that they were spinning the liberal line, Teachers crossing the picket line crap coming from the minister and they trotted out a hard luck story.

I feel bad for those inconvenienced by the strike but el gordo and supporters are definately not champions of the single moms or working poor, libs are more likely to creat more of them if they can.

No Ron Erwin, my logic is not flawed. The cash-up-front, "we don't need any taxes around here", attitude that has gripped most of the US in recent years is a product of the GW Bush administration.

A country wealthy enough to cut taxes for the richest of citizens and powerful enough to clobber the hell out of anyone militarily or financially has absolutely no excuse for abandoning its own poor and handicapped in the eye of a hurricane.

It was FEMA that handed massive cleanup and dyke expansion contracts to Halliburton-controlled companies after the hurricane, the same federal agency that was responsible before the hurricane hit for ensuring that adequate steps were taken to get people out of harms way.

Perhaps you missed it Ron, but Katrina wasn't a surprise attack or anything. It killed several in Florida almost a week before.

FEMA already had its mandate. If only it had a manager.

In most civilized nations such a response from someone appointed to protect the health and safety of citizens(like Walkerton Ontario), would bring criminal charges.

Bush's appointee walked away with a good pension and likely yet another patronage plum.

The state of Louisianna and city of New Orleans are among the poorest areas in the country.

In most civilized nations residents facing devestating circumstances from weather conditions can count on their own country to at least try to come to the rescue regardless of the colour of your credit card.

The US flew relief helicopters into Pakistan within hours of this weeks massive earthquakes, but couldn't spare one to get people out of its own flood waters for days after Katrina.

Oh, yes, you also asked why Mississippi didn't experience the same crisis as New Oreans.

Perhaps it's because Mississippi isn't several metres below sea level and surrounded by inadequate dykes as was New Orleans.

But I bet if you check you'll learn that some of the millions allocated to dyking improvements in New Orleans was actually spent in Mississippi.

Robbins, am I reading this right? you're saying the gov't will make provisions for individual contractors but not for the existing employees through their legally chosen barginning agent?

If your source is correct Robbins, I would suggest the BC Fed and its affiliates will be stepping out for a while also.

There would be little reason not to walk, especially if you are in another public sector union.

It certainly sounds like war drums.

Thats very interesting news from Robbins.

But I would imagine if its true this move will have been anticpated by labour. Therefore a reponse should be expected.

I was speaking with a senior labour official today. Said this one is nearing the brink.

I was musing to myself during the container hauliers dispute. The governement was powerless to deal with the drivers as they were not by and large unionized. There was no labour code that could be apllied to them. Therefore the government could not offer any real intervention forcing an end to the dispute.

Trade Unions are a value to capital in that their effectivenss can be contained by labour codes. Maybe its time for organized labour to re-think this notion.

God knows the labour boards and WCB are just tools of capital to press workers.

I note the news is spinning the parental issues. The kids education is suffering.

I have two children in school. One high school and one elementary. By the time June comes around the years ciriculum has been completed. The kids are often out on field trips, swimming and free reading.

I would suggest those who say their kids are missing valuable teaching time to try another excuse. This time can easily be made up with with fewer trips to the pool or visits to Ocean Spray's cranberry farms

I watched some of global and have to turn it off now, it is so biased and insulting.

GM, Ford, Chrysler, Saturn cars, Wiska's cat food, chiapractic association, Wendy's. And, many promotions for shows on global.

Actually, PeterL raises an idea that has been on my mind for awhile now, even if not fully formed.

We are approaching a time, in my view, when trade unions need to seriously begin to weigh and consider their value as legal entitities. Meaning labour needs to begin to consider the alternate value of creating "underground" class structures, outside the reach of law. Initially that could even take the form of parallel legal and underground structures for a time.

Capitalism is looking back in time for solutions to its own control mechanisms over society and the working class. It is time for labour to consider likewise.

The value exists on a number of fronts; first being removing labour entities from easy view and State control methods. Second, it allows a more surreptitious organizing environment, likewise outside of easy purview, and the possibility of developing a "guerilla" type strategy and tactical development. Which creates that unstable "uncertainty" which capitalism hates so much.

Finally it removes trade unions from outside the sphere of the courts being used to drain their financial coffers and breaking unions financially.

Additionally, there is an added utilitarian use. It opens up the possibility of creating "units", similarly surreptitiously positioned, to deal with scabs and their traitorous role in the current and evolving environment.

Legal entities are useful, as they have been since sometime in the 40s, under more favourable, progressing rather than retrogressing social, economic and political conditions. Under the repressive ones evolving in current capitalism however, you are made increasing vulnerable, and your potential for tactics development are more restricted.

It is a conversation that needs to begin to occur within trade unions and the ranks of their members. Though it is not yet, I think, entirely an either/ or, but more quiet movement to hide cash and other resources and to develop underground structures over time, while maintaining the current "legal" appearance of things.

There is likely still some value to having a legal and participatory face. Maybe even something of a "surface" presence throughout the coming period. It's mostly just that more of its structure, like an iceberg, needs to begin to move underground.

Certainly the New Capitalist Order is already well underway, which as it further evolves, I think, is going to force the need onto trade unions and other class entities, to consider the development of new forms and structures, as well as different overall strategy and tactics.

What is, is not working. And the vulnerability of our position creates greater risk and vulnerabilities in our action. It may even be a partial explanation for the timidity at the heart of the labour bureaucracy's actions; the fear of losing everything that has been built up, by way of cash, assets and property. (The one problem with "owning stuff" is, you always have to worry about somebody trying to take it away from you.)

In any case, it is clearly a time for a change of organizational direction, and in the development of strategy and tactics.

My view.

Well, hello to you too, Coyote. (smile)

This gov't can do all the sleezy things it hopes to, but there is still the charter of rights and freedoms.
I'm sure labour has anticipated everything as well. If they try to decertify that is a declaration of war on all labour in Canada. So, I don't know if they're really going to do that. That should be enough of an insult for a Canada wide general strike! Although, I have no doubt of the depths of their stupidity.

Without unions and protections of unions there is NO democracy. Unions are a basic element in democracy.

We'll see what they do. Make a laughing stock out of themselves most likely.

Just like global, reading from the government press release, about the percentage of people who voted. So? I'd like to see the executive turn it around on them. What is their point? That the union is running amok and doesn't have the support of the members? The public knows that isnt' true.

Not to mention of course, as others have pointed out that the number includes retired teachers who don't vote out of respect for the teaching members etc and my former point that anyone who didn't vote obviously supports this strike because they're putting their paycheck up as proof.

Well Coyote thats way more eloquent than I can ever be.

The tactics that you describe with respect to assets were used by British trade unions when it became clear Thatcher was coming after everyone.

First she started with the pressmen and media guilds, knock out the left wing press right. Then the dockworkers were next, onto the miners and finally the seafarers.

By the time she was coming for the seafarers there was a Dover Ferry dispute. The union representing seafarers had seen the sequestratation of other unions funds. What the seamans union did before the dispute was to put their properties into trusts, Isle of Mann. When the Dover dispute was kicking off the union removed all their records and withdrew their funds from the bank and put them into the back of a car.

There was a funny story about that car that I can't exactly recall, something about a traffic violation and a Bobby. Ah the heady days of Thatcherism.

BP-I am so used to looking at collected data and commentary for polls, that sometimes I get caught up in the ether of these things, and I am a little slow on the draw for the practical application of (what once was) theoretical spin. For this I apologize.

Here is what I was told. Assuming the BCTF is 'outlawed' (my language), than all 40,000 BC schoolteachers are immediately independent contractors similar to doctors and lawyers. The existing schoolteachers at ABC Elementary can stay at the school they are at under the existing contract. In this scenario, these independent contractors would than apply to the School Boards for additional payments for say coaching the rugby team, or producing a play after school. There would be some type of tariff or fee arrangment separate from the the other benefits.

Schoolteachers would be induced to go up north, just as doctors were with bonuses, extra dollars etc. A specific fee schedule would be established whereby Districts received money from the government for special needs children, ESL, aboriginal, gifted etc.

Those teachers at ABC who did not want to participate could leave I suppose, (I never asked about pensions, or buy-outs-but I can't see how they would apply).

I feel a little vulnerable with this but my source is a very good one, and a brilliant political mind. I may not be retelling this sufficiently well for some of the writers on these blogs, but I am not worried about it.

If this 'news' has any legs of legitimacy, I suspect the writers on the Tyee can rip it, endorse it or whatever.

I do not that (a) it is possible procedurally
and (b) my source says for certain it is being discussed, and that is why the Telus/Teacher crossing the picket line spin has begun.

My sense of things is that the general public has been underestimated by the Liberal strategists. People are not as dumb as they think (although some are, considering a number of posts here). The general population has grown more and more wary of the news media; no one is surprised anymore to hear that the news media is biased, and controlled by a corporate elite with a vested interest in swaying public opinion. The consumers of news are more able to filter it than before.

I think the heavy-handed approach this government is taking will backfire. The obvious abrogation of workers' rights is consolidating opposition to the government. Only those who are blinded by their own interests (or pitiful grasp of a big picture) fail to understand the blatant injustices perpetrated by the Liberal government of BC. The attack on education and teachers is only the latest evidence of their goal to eliminate unions, and indeed any opposition to their neocon agenda.

But people are not rolling over. Teachers have seen growing support from students, parents, grandparents, school trustees, even school administrators, other unions and their members, all across the sprectrum. They go out of their way to cheer picketing teachers and scoff at the silly newscasts.

David Schreck provides some great perspective and historical context for the current dispute with two new articles on his site. Visit strategicthoughts.com if you're interested.

redrivergirl: thanks again for the info on the advertisers.
Robbins:re your post on the decertifying of unions. There are many legislated laws that will have to be repealed in order to do this. As someone so aptly put it earlier the camels' back has taken the last straw. Any attempt of this govenment to try this tactic will, and I mean will' have the effect of generating a province wide general strike AND a national general strike as well as boycots (hot edicts)against many companies. The effects of something like this would have repercussions around the world and it would not surprise me if other countries held sympathy strikes.
I certainly hope that your "informant" is wrong. A strike by a single union province wide is regretable but necessary. I know that there are a lot of dead stumps in our government but I can't see anyone being that stupid. Except gordo. And we all know he is a big business puppet. But I can't see there being 42 other Liberals being that stupid.
If something like this was passed I shudder to see the consequences.
I din't think that the present Liberal government realizes that almost every Union in the B.C. Fed is part of an Internal Union.
God help us all if gordo gets that stupid. Or maybe he already is.

typo: din"t should be don't

I just had the biggest scare and the biggest sigh of releif in my life. I saw the add next to gordos pic and thought it was the greatest oxy-moron I had ever seen. Media Democracy Day.
but when I went further, by enlarging the add, I saw it was put on by the Independant Media.
Whew..

Do you support teachers in their fight for pay increases and smaller class sizes?

Yes 607

No 35

http://www.langleytimes.com/

Do you approve of the provincial government's move to introduce legislation to extend the teachers' contract?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes 19

No 480

http://www.pgfreepress.com/

Would you support the teachers’ strike if it continues past two weeks?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

302

24

http://www.surreyleader.com/

Comments sdgeen, Ron Erwin, nemesis??

Having been a member of organized labour in BC for the whole of my working life (1968) I have come to be able to recognize an attack when I see one. I think it is good that we are finally realizing as a group that this happening and it is going to take extreme measures to stop. I am concerned for the unorganized workers as they may see this as an oppotunity without understanding that if the organized should fail what is going to happen to them. The cuurent plight of the working class in BC would seem rosy in comparison.

To TM previous

Pretty hard to for the three RWers to argur those numbers.

to

opps typo "argue"

I am a teacher with an independent mind. At one time I was an administrator, and I remember being frustrated by the restrictions that union policies placed on my ability to place the best teachers in the right jobs. However, I have since returned to teaching. Simply put, it was a decision to do something I loved, rather than something that paid well. So now I find myself at the opposite end of the ideological spectrum.

It is clear to me that this is the seminal moment in the professional lives of most of the teachers in this province. It has never been clearer that the organization that represents and facilitates our views and professional interests is under grievous attack. From my perspective, class sizes and wages are important, but they pale in comparison to the more fundamental rights to freedom of association, freedom of speech, and collective bargaining.

Tonight I channel surfed between Global and Ctv, and found myself feeling incredibly discouraged. It is hard enough to fight a dictatorial government. Harder still to fight the media. I'm glad to have CBC back, if only to create some balance to the coverage.

But then, as my discouragement ran its course, my wife reminded me that "You are right, and you know it." And I am. We are. And that, ultimately, is the most powerful asset we have. We are right about the interests of students. We are right about the nature of the assault on our rights. And, I trust, we are right about the timbre of public opinion. After all, they are the ultimate arbiter.

Teachers, keep the faith.

So Ronny Erwin spends a smidgen of his large fortune to send his grand spawn off to wonderful enlightened private schools, which receive very large grants from public funds. No doubt Ronny wants them to become mirror images of him and those he shares a bed with on this thread. They should be myopic, uninformed, self serving and completely devoid of social conscience or integrity. “The winner is the guy who dies with the greatest number of toys.”
Clearly Ronny did not get much of an education. No doubt the result of over paid under worked public school teachers.
Don't worry Ronny, Ronny's law abiding premier and his fascist cronies will smash those 38000 lefty teachers and the 40 000 CUPE reds who are not crossing their line. Of course Gordo might just be opening Pandoras box.

Gary-is it your opinion therefore that because a number of laws (which ones-save the research time if you can?) would have to be repealed that the notion of decertification if very unlikely. Your position after the initial comment makes me think that you believe although 'stupid' it is a plausible idea.

This source by the way seems to save his telephone calls to me only after something has been clearly discussed as possible, otherwise I would have done a little more homework before tossing it out.

"Yammer: Do you not understand that teachers are fighting for ALL of their students?"

Oh yes, I support their aims. It is their methods which have to be questioned. Why do they have to be questioned? Because when you cause harm (e.g. a pending child-safety crisis), it is normal, indeed obvious, to ask if the method chosen was justified.

If the idea was to hurt the Liberals, I don't think it was a well-aimed shot. Campbell and his brain trust can sit back and wait for the law, such as it is, to be enforced.

It's certainly a bullseye on parents and kids. That naturally has manifested in retaliatory litigation.

It's a sorry state of affairs now. Both sides have been quickly locked into extreme positions. The rational, intermediate step would have been to stick with the initial BCTF plan of rotating walkouts. That would be an effective blackmail because then you have people's attention, while threatening them with something even worse (100% walkout) and an acceptable payoff (class size, pay).

Now, the BCTF is stuck. Yes, the entire membership was angry about having legislation imposed. It is as if they had not been warned it was coming. However well provoked, the decision to START at full strike leaves them no options and nothing with which to bargain.

Their sole hope is that they are so supported by the public that they become important, even electionable causes. This is the same public that just re-elected their rivals, who are fronted by a widely despised, convicted drunk driver. A public which is not normally inclined towards wage increases or any other niceties for civil servants, let alone civil servants in criminal contempt of court. Who are taking away their childcare.

They also have to hope this swell of public support happens before they get starved into humiliating capitulation. Strike pay ain't that much, and the strike pay fund is not only going to have to pay 40,000 teachers, it will have to absorb the contempt-of-court fines, which are likely neither to abate nor be reduced.

Yes, a fine state o' affairs. What do YOU think now?

Robbins, you paint a frightening picture of a manufactured workplace I certainly wouldn't want to work in.

However, there is the small matter of Constitutional rights, a legal hurdle which you didn't discuss and fortunately gordo has very little likelihood of leaping over.

Besides, if the province's professional doctors can form an association that assists them in collective bargaining,(yes folks, COLLECTIVE BARGAINING!) what's to stop the professionall teachers from doing the same thing?

Then you might end with with a "professional union" more militant then even our doctors when in bargaining and, there would be no labour code to tie them down with.

If the government is contemplating anything like this it would suggest they are "blue skying" to the max, which would confirm my sense the Campbell liberals don't know how to untangle from this mess.

The problem isn't a flawed collective bargaining process, but rather a dysfunctional government caught in its own ideological web
of deceit.

Yammer, I do get the sense your obvious anger at the teachers'actions is not so much about your children, but about yourself.

If people at a radio station were to go on strike or get locked out a great many dedicated listeners will have been inconvenienced, some perhaps quite harshly because that station is their only window onto the world.

The teachers' strike is also inconveniencing people such as yourself, but I doubt your children are as traumatized as you appear to be as a result of the walkout.

This strike is not hurting children. Yes it may force the curriculum to be pared slightly or to extend the year a few weeks.

But again, it is not hurting the children and I wonder why an educated person like yourself would jump on that mantra rather than simply saying "I'm pissed off because I had to stay home from work and babysit my kids today."

As for the union not informing the parents they would definitely be striking Friday and into this week, did the government tell you they were going to legislate the teachers back so as to avoid bargaining?

Yammer, you work the daily news beat and have been in BC long enough to know that a strike is always a possibility here. Campbell has been musing for, it seems, eons about how these pesty teachers have to be put in line.

The din of the anti-teacher rhetoric spewing out of the propaganda machines surely touched your ear over the past year.

Teachers have a constitutional right to "free collective bargaining" regardless if some tinpot dictator intentionally harms a group of people by making certain legislation illegal.

I'm just awed that you can claim to support the teachers, but condemn them for inconveniencing you a bit.

In fact, if you have a beef about the situation, why don't you focus on the arses who engineered this fiasco that led to the closure of the schools.

In typical Allan fashion, he has gone straight for the personal insult. Why is Allan like that? Could it be because he has a tiny penis?

Maybe we should stick to talking about issues.

I'm not angry at the teachers. I don't mind parenting my kids whatsoever. We have a good time together. I love their teachers and their excellent public school. I want them to be paid well and to have good classroom support.

All I am doing is raising questions about the leadership strategy which seems to have led them into an unproductive, untenable situation.

Allan asserts that children have not been harmed, only inconvenienced.

Maybe it is my ex-social worker paranoia, but it seems obvious to me that some (hopefully few) children WILL go unattended during the day and miss out on important nutrition because of this walkout. That makes it a child protection issue, not trivia.

If I was actually a rightwinger, I would completely cheer the BCTF today, because they are in a far worse situation now than they were a week ago.

I have been dissapointed with the BC Lib's. I would have expected them to attempt to diminish the influence of Public Sector Unions ( PSU's) to our economy.
If you think that the actions of the govt. are heavy handed, you haven't seen anything like what I would have expected from a strong govt. the same action as Ronald Reagan did with the air traffic controllers, fire them. Fire them and hire the same people back under conditions that benefit the taxpayer.
Besides, can you get any 10 year old to answer the question , what equals 9X6. I doubt they could answer this question without the benefit of a calculator.
These liberal educators are useless at actually teaching people how to make their way through life.

Ron, the only reason Reagan could fire the contollers is because he had the enough US AIRFORCE controllers to take over for as long as necessary.

THis is not an option for the BC Libs who if they push the teachers far enough will find they have only a handful of teachers left!

36 thousand, to 60 thousand is NOT a lot of money for goodness sake!

If you are concerned about children, Yammer, contact your MLA, put pressure on them and demand they begin to bargain in faith.

Robbins:

I can't tell you exactly which laws at this time. It would take too long. But I can tell you that they are all under the LABOUR ministry.If you look them up, and they are extensive, you will understand. And only a membership can decertify a union with a democratic vote. Otherwise in my opinion the government would have to "outlaw" the union. Union leaders and the B.C. Fed, as well as the UN's ILO and the federal government and our constitution would come into play. So the man would be bucking the free world. I'm pretty sure that the labour movement in B.C has recognized what the overall agenda is. After seeing what this government has lied about, the contracts they have torn up, and the ones imposed nothing would surprise me even if it were "stupid" or irresponsible. They have an agenda and that is the big picture some of us are talking about.
I'm also glad to see that you have a source. And that they seem to be in a position to hear things that we could only guess. That would put you in a position of knowing the big picture before the rest of us. And you will see that we are correct in our assumptions.
That also is why I sincerely hope that this scenario you mention is not true and has not been discussed in caucus or in back rooms because if it were that would confirm that they are looking to smash unions and
they obviously don't know or care what they are up against.
Yammer: I think your timeline is a little confused. The teachers tried to bargain. The government told that association, whatever the name is (It's bogus anyway) not to bargain. The teachers commenced minor job action and Gordo in his infinite wisdome jumped on that and forced legislation. At that point the teachers had no choice but to commence cicil disobedience at an unjust law. By the way for others, I still haven't sseen any signs that say "STRIKE". This in my opinion is a constitutional action to maintain the right to freedom of association. But that's another story. Right now we are concentrating on the loss of collective bargaining. The First Step.

My MLA is Jenny Kwan. I am sure she is on it!

I think my own skill would lie more in the realm of propaganda. I will try to work something into my scribblings.

Seems to me that if a Public Service Union becomes unreasonable in their demands to a point where they diminish a government service, then the government can consider alternative solutions. This must be true since governments have 'ordered' unions back to work.

The larger question in the case of the BCTF is who runs the educational delivery system in this province? If it is the government, then one cannot put items like class size and composition into a union contract. At the same time, the public must be assured that government gets the biggest bang for the taxpayer dollar. The BCTF it seems has set its objective to run the system of education.

One just has to look at the BC College of Teachers. Here we now have a BCTF run gestapo outfit now responsible for certification of teachers and discipline of teachers. What is next? BCTF developed curriculum. Election of Prinicals? I think not.

However, the BCTF has identified apparent issues that exist in the education system, and it is now up to government, and school districts to review those issues. The government has announced that process.

I find it amazing that when current budget allocation to the education system is the hignest such has ever been that resources are not available, or apparently not. There certainly is no excuse for not having enough text books or desks!

Work load, apparently exacerbated by task intensive special needs children, needs to be reviewed. Perhaps we are trying to teach too much?

Bottomline, the current negotiation process with the BCTF is not working and needs to be fixed. However, we cannot allow the BCTF to hold our children as hostages.

redrivergirl' You say there were enough air force personel to replace the private air traffic contollers that mitigated the effects of Ronald Reagan firing them.
Is there not enough private citizens to replace the teachers on a temporary basis ?
Afterall, the BCTF has already said that students wouldn't be affected by a three month strike.
Enough volunteers could be placed in the classrooms until the original teachers came back to work, as this is all they know what to do anyways.

I see ronny is back on the job, do you actually get paid to promote el gordo ronny, can't see why else you would be on here 9-5 monday to friday except on holidays. You really should take my advice and move to somewhere excotic like the Congo, probably fit right in!

I wasn't feeling well yesterday, did you miss me, sdgreen? lolol

If I could manage to sit in this chair long enough, I would gladly read the source you recommended but I can't so it will just have to wait. I'm just a lazy, whining, overpaid teacher with waaaaaaaay too many holidays after all!! lolol

Your mantra is that the BC public education system needs an overhaul. Well, make some suggestions then and quit repeating yourself. Tell us all what you would do if you were the Minister of Education. To your credit, I'm thinking you'd beat Ms. Bond in the IQ department (sorry Shirley, that was catty but I'm sure even you can't blame me). And if you tell me that you would shove my wonderful students into a segregated school to lay in beds in dirty diapers and unstimulated all day, you know you'll make me have to sit here and defend them and their basic human rights again!!!

But do you forget that BC is ranked so highly in terms of public education systems around the world? I'm sure you realize that is due to the hard work of the dedicated teachers in this province and has absolutely nothing to do with government officials and lackey (not even former employees of the Ministry of Education ). Do you understand that if the Fiberals continue to sacrifice our education system in order to pay for those darn Olympics that the quality of students' education will continue to suffer? Would you demoralize your dedicated teachers no matter how hard they work to compensate for the government's meddling in schools? Would you actually involve some educators (who have some experience teaching instead of making bogus laws) in your process so that at least there would be a slim chance that some sound educational practices would be implemented? Would you change the curriculum every few years so that all the money spent on the previous programs is wasted?? Would you lower class sizes (as anyone with any common sense knows increases the quality of instruction and one doesn't even have to read the research to figure that one out!!) or would you raise them over 40 students/class? Would you have children going to school 3 days a week instead of 4 and pretend that the decision involved putting the children first instead of saving on heating costs??? I could go on forever but I certainly don't want to bore you or anyone else.

Inquiring minds want to know, sdgreen. Put your money where your mouth is, please. Educate the masses .

Sure Ronny, Just bring them on. What a ludicrous suggestion.Fire all the teachers and you will have absolute chaos folowed by 90% private schools.Your grand darlings whom you currently claimm to subsidize in "Upper British Columbia College" will really cost you. You must have had some nasty teachers in your long life to cause you to resent them so much. It amazes me that your teachers succeeded in producing a person with a smuch vitriol for people who genuinely have a concern for the commonweal.I bet you keep your preacher humble and poor so he can serve you better by assuring you the Lord thinks like you do. Me my self and I is what comes across from you, well wrapped in misinformation and distortion. Dejong must be your minister of truth.

sdgreen, yes, the government must be in charge of the educational system. However, that does not mean sole responsibility setting class sizes. The government does not work in the schools. The people that know the most about optimal class sizes are the teachers. They have to be included in the discussion as to how educational resources are to be distributed. If they're ignored, as they have been, the system won't work.

How are the BCTF similar to the gestapo? Are they taking away MLS'a during the night from their families?

And what would be wrong with a curriculum designed, at least in some part, by the teachers instead of used car salesman and flight instructors?

You seem to believe the government is now on the right track? Why? What have they done that is different fromn the last 4 years? Announced a process? Only to the media, they didn't tell the teachers. By the way, they had 4.5 years to actually have a process put in place. The strike seems to have concentrated their mind.

As for the dollars, based on that logic the Cdn Armed Forces now has more money than it did in World War II. Where are the bomber groups? The 6 divisions? The world's 4th largest navy? Perhaps all that defence money is being mis-spent?

I seem to recall that many years ago, perhaps 25 or so, that the BCTF was a voluntary bargaining association, that is a "trade union" that was not certified through the Labour Board. At that time contracts were negotiated with individual school boards. Under one government or other (Socred, I believe) the voluntary recognition was removed and teachers were put into the position of not having a bargaining group. That was when the BCTF re-organised as a formal trade union, was endorsed by teachers and got certified. Rather ironic, don't you think, that the BCTF became a trade union by the same kind of domineering approach that Campbellites are now using to break them.

I believe that the government through BCPSEA could make an application to the Labour Board for decertification of the BCTF, and they would likely give it, since they are now made up of Liberal sycophants. I am not sure what the practical importance of that would be, though. Legally, the BCTF could not be fined afterwards since they would not have any legal resposibility for what teachers do. Teachers, of course, could talk among themselves (all 40,000 of them) via some unoffical organisation like the BCTF and still carry out a joint job action.

I suppose school boards could then fire individual teachers, but to accomplish what? To intimidate other teachers is the only reason I can think of. There is still the inescapable fact that the educational system can only function if close to all teachers return to work. As long as substantial numbers refuse to do so the system will remain is crippled. I also question what other unions would do. Will they also be the subject of decertification? If they then set up picket lines themselves, what is gained by the government?

Yammer grow some thicker skin and please look up the words insult and criticism. But first, get you focus above my belt.

You seem to have fallen into the trap right-wingers want you wallowing in. By that I mean your belief that teachers are paid to babysit your children five days a week.

In other words the teacher is little more than a five-day-a-week convenience for parents who
work, play golf or whatever under some illusion that they don't always hold primary responsibility for their children.

Grow up Yammer. Your children are not at risk. If your concern is other peoples' children and if you have specific concerns then act on them and contact child protection.

If you are an ex-social worker then you know that at any given time in BC there are hundreds if not more chldren who are at risk yet this government continues to cut services and programs that might just save a young life.

Is Jenny Sims to blame for that as well because her members want to see smaller class sizes where teachers might actually have the time to focus on a child that needs protection or help?

I find it highly arrogant of you and very telling that you presume to inform the leadership of the BCTF that they don't know what they are doing.

You call yourself a journalist, which I assume means you are willing to look at all sides of this issue, but the first day you are inconvenienced, it's suddenly those terrible teacher leaders who are to blame for the hateful anti-teacher rhetoric spewing out of Gordon Campbell.

My read of your dilemma is you are in a snit because you have been inconvenienced and when someone calls you on your tirade you fume and then quickly jump right back into it with "tiny penis" insults.

As someone noted above, you seem to have entirely missed the string of events that has created the crisis we are now in over public education.

It isn't just about you as much as you may think it is.

Many are too focussed on their own interests to clearly understand what is happening. They hate Unions and Strikes. They hate disruption in their lives and they are not looking beyond their biggoted attitude.They judge the bargaining proposals as outlandish with no investigation of comparable rates. They are outraged at the idea of being inconvenienced by a strike without understanding any of the events leading up to it. They think the bargaining process is flawed because it didn't produce a settlement.

Without allowing the parties to negotiate wages and working conditions, the strike was in effect, called by Campbell.

The contract is imposed by Campbell and the legislation attempts to end the strike by force.

He may as well have legislated an end to teachers rights under the Charter except that technically he had to find a "legal" way to do it.

Campbell has "locked out" bargaining.

Teachers have no choice left but to protest but I guess our Premier wants no protesting so even that is now made illegal. Campbell will have to keep on making more and more things illegal.

Soon speaking ill of Campbell will be illegal.

Okay so the BCSC Judge has not imposed any fines against the BCTF. Instead Justice Brown has frozen the teachers strike fund for 30 days.

Stump and others, I apologize for the self congratulations in advance, but ROBBINS said from the beginning that the people elected Campbell et al, and school trustees everywhere to do the job they were elected to do, not to continue to pass off their elected responsibilities to the courts all of the time.

This Order is a major win for the BCTF. There is no other way to interpret this (rationally).

The courts are sick and tired of legislating people. That is not their function.

ROBBINS says "Mr. Campbell, Mr. De Jong and Ms. Bond, as well as school trustees, please do the job you are handsomely paid to do."

This should be construed to mean 'quit acting like a Hollywood movie star (see other ROBBINS blogs) and get to the negotiating table, your up your sleeves and do some work.

A smart decision by the BCSC Judge in ROBBINS opinion.

I pretty much agree with Robbins opinion that this is a win for teachers.

I wrote the following two emails, one to Mike Smyth refering to his cknw radio analyses and spin. The other to John McComb who wasn't bad today. Mr. McComb read this on the air.

Dear Mike,

The lengths you are going to to break the spirit of the teachers and throw into question their motivation must frankly be embarrassing.

You certainly must have a lot of boots to shine in the government and publishers office. Both equally important I suppose.

You tout yourself as a serious political columnist. Please try to do justice to that public responsibility. You are way to smart not to understand how you are sounding.

All the best
PeteL
Vancouver

Dear John,

I listened to your analyses of the ruling with Mike Smyth.

I think that perhaps you have missed something.

My sense is that Madam Justice Brown recognizes this is not as simple as a mere labour dispute, but a legitimate protest against heavy handed and non defensible legislation.

Therefore she has made this ruling and its effect is to allow this protest to continue thus putting the ball back in the court of the Government to sit down and deal with it.

She in her wisdom did not take away the last tool of the citizen, the right to protest bad legislation.

My hats off to the Courts today.

PeteL
Vancouver

I don't see this as a ruling in favour of the teachers. Sorry.

She is reserving the right for fines later. She has taken financial control away from the union and it's members when it is THEIR money. Appointed a monitor who the union will pay for. She has made the protest more personally costly for the teachers.

This is a black eye on Canada.

I hope the province shuts right down and we settle this tyranny once and for all.

I hope I'm missing something here and this is in fact a positive ruling. In any event I think it is probably a ruling easily overturned at higher court.

Sometimes I hate this province. It is so unbelievably corrupt. We might as well live in a swamp somewhere.

redrivergirl' Nope, there is nothing positive for teachers in this ruling. Turn out the lights, the party's over.

redrivergirl, I do understand the emotion of your arguement or position and agree with you in principle. However most folks close to this dispute honestly felt that the Courts might buckle to the employers and governments wishes to fine this organization out of existance.

Madam Justice Brown was forced to make a ruling that would have consequence to the teachers in view of the fact that the Sunday ruling already had found the BCTF in contempt.

I guess we can debate whether fines of $500,000 a day and jailing of their leadership and possibly activist members would have been preferable. But what good is it for the BCTF to turn over their members money to the courts.
That was the expected ruling.

I seems to me that the what the judge was saying is that this is a political dispute and that she does not agree that the courts are the place to resolve this made in government mess. Bearing in mind the court did have to make some ruling against the organiztion.

I bet Minister's DeJong and Bond are staggered right now.

What I hope is that the community can now come together in material soldarity with our teachers as individuals if the government fails to get the message from the courts.

Yes, Pete, you could be right.

Ron, even if it is a bad ruling, that only means that they have temporarily won a victory against the citizens of this province.

Hardly the end of any war they declared.

Actually, if they do crush the union, then it is only a matter of time that people will see their own wages drop, their rights disappear and then they will be firmly on the side of the people of this province.

So, the more you 'win, the quicker is your ultimate failure in doing something WRONG to your fellow citizens.

This pretend gov't's actions are wrong and the power of 'What is Right' and 'Justice' are on the side of the people.

Spedteacher

Thanks for the invitation to comment on some of the issues.

Budget

In the first place, the education budget is at the highest level ever. So:

1. Let us do a zero base budgeting process.
2. Let us look at the overall justification for administrative and operational processes.
3. Let us define and establish the minimum requirements to deliver education in this province.

Through the above process, we might find that allocated dollars are not going to things that such are intended. We might find sub-programs or administrative processes that might not be valid.

The whole objective would be to identify the "must haves", "the should haves", and "the could haves".

Resources

In my mind, learning hardware is paramount

1. Confirm that sufficient funding to support desks and essential equipment/supplies is allocated.
2. Confirm that text books and other teaching aids are in sufficient numbers.
3. Confirm that school buildings are produced and maintained in the most efficient manner. This would include the appropriate facility characteristics.

Curriculum

This process is a tad more complex. I am aware that ongoing review processes are in place. So the only question might be:

1. Are we teaching elements that might be classified as "could haves" where resources for such would be better put to "must & should haves".

Administration

I am aware that at the School District level administration has escalated.

1. Review the roles and functions of the School District.
2. How many senior staff are really required? 3. How many District programs are eseential?

Special Programs (this is your mantra)

1. Review special needs student pre-requisites.
2. Review other current delivery systems outside of BC against our current system.
3. Establish base requirements and costs

Negotiations, Certification and Discipline

1. Abolish Province wide negotiations and return to local District level negotiations.
2. Abolish the BCPSEA.
3. Abolish the College of Teachers.
4. Teacher certification accomplished by applicable universities.
5. Teacher discipline exercised at the School District level in conjunction with the School Principal and the BCTF.
6. Teacher salaries/benefits to be established based on a basket of average values from across Canada and possibly other international standards.
7. Automatic COL adjustments applied annually.
7. Merit system to be applied for advancement in salary scale.

Some thoughts, Spedteacher.....

I don't yet know what I think of Madam Justice Brown's ruling. I am leaning towards agreeing with PeteL's analysis. Because of Sunday's contempt of court ruling, I believe that she did have to make some kind of ruling against the BCTF. My main concern now is that some teachers will buckle under because of the kind of fear that is generated when there is no income on the horizon. Not that 50 bucks a day is enough to cover our expenses anyway. As a new teacher, with no savings built up, the frozen strike fund will create real financial hardship for me and child. Nonetheless, this fight is about more than that. i hope that teachers will continue to stay off the job until the Liberals decide to talk about this and proceed with the collective bargaining we were promised when this same stripped contract was imposed in 2002. (We were led to understand that there would be room for bargaining when BC's economic picture imporved. Am I mistaken, or hasn't it improved???)

I posted my colleaugue's idea elsewhere on Tyee, but i want to pass on the wonderful idea I heard today. Since teachers are not receiving any salary, I would like to offer my lost salary to parents who need it for childcare. Call your MLA and ask them what's going to happen to the money the government saves on teachers' salaries. ....maybe they can build a new highway with it, or give themselves another raise for all their hard work :-)

ps What does lolol mean?

I think in order to understand the ruling and assess the won/loss you have to understand both the way the courts work, and politics.

Let me explain. When the government one a contempt order the expectation was fines, a direct correlation between the first (contempt) Order, and the subsequent 'relief'.

In other words, in their doodle-art the government has a straight arrow between Order #1 and Order#2. The judge instead gave them a squiggly line that did not connect the two things. It was the government's application, whenever you don't get what you request in your legal application, the assessment is one of loss, because you application should include the relief you expect.

The decision did not match up with any of the relief sought in the application. Therefore the Order is a loser (on its face) for the government. There is no other way legally to interpret this.

Essentially what the government got was a cooling off period with conditions. If the government does nothing and refuses to negotiate than the court will be unlikely to impose any fines on the teachers.

The court has basically put the ball in the hands of the teachers. This means that the government has lost control and so has the BCTF.

If the teachers remain solid than the government is in trouble, because there wasn't a Plan B.

There is no way the court will sanction the 'break-up' of collective bargaining type situation with their gavel.

This is a sigificant loss legally for the BC Liberals, it is a signifcant set-back politically.

Most teachers I talked to were outraged at this ruling. Apparently, besides the loss of strike pay, the union cannot advertise in support of the strike or use its offices to organize from. A direct hit at the organizing power of the union, which is crucial.

And my understanding was the same as redrivergirl's that she is reserving the right for fines later.

And I agree red, this is fast becoming a swamp, certainly a proliferation of snakes. :-)

jjst, that is great idea, I'm sure the snakes have other ideas though. Anyway, nice to hear from a young teacher willing to take a stand. Hang in there.

jjist, I hear you loud and clear. The tensions that built up today waiting for the ruling were immense. But every where I went today citizens and union officials anger at the government was at the boiling point.

This ruling today, in some ways was designed to get exactly the opinion that you present.

If I may be so bold, let me tell you something about labour relations and and the exploiters and the exploited. Whenever it starts to get so dark, when your knee's are at the point of starting to tremble. That is exactly how the other side is feeling too. They know that you are on the moral high ground. Do not discount that leverage.

And you know what else? That is when the employer picks up the telephone and swallows deeply.

This dispute is certainly not for the faint of heart. What has to happen is that your lines must remain strong tomorrow and if necessary strong on Monday. That is why all of our teachers took the vote. That vote or any strike vote should never be taken as a ploy or a bluff.

Remember the old song by Gerry and the Pacemakers in the early sixties and Liverpool Football Clubs fight song today. "You'll never walk alone." Ah maybe your to young.

Hold your heads up high and don't be afraid of the dark.

We'll see you on the lines.

Thanks, Robbins I'm trying to understand your explanation. I get the squiggly line analogy...but the BCTF is the teachers, from which teachers bargain.

Frank;

Since the BCTF has the majority ruling folks in the College of Teachers, it could utilize that organization against its own members or those who disagree with the Federation.

My preference would be to abolish the College of Teachers. It is a layer that is not required. Certification can be well determined at Universities relative to qualification. Discipline can/should be done at the local level between the Principal, School District and the BCTF.

Curricula design should be a process of inclusion by all education stakeholders. This includes education professionals at the K-12, College and University levels, District officials, Parents, Industry & trade leaders and others. Such ought not to be just restricted to teachers.

My interest in all this is experience gained both in government service and the private sector. It is clear by notes herein that all is not rosy in the education field. It really does not matter what political party is involved, but we must find a lasting solution that is beneficial to the education system and the taxpayer. We all pay enormous taxes, and I am just not convinced that we are getting the biggest bang for our buck.

The BCTF is demanding increases it appears based on the current system. It is true that our system is producing some very fine results, but at the same time I am not convinced that we have optimised the system. I think there is waste. I do not think we have properly rationalized programs.

To SharingIsGood;

Quote
sdgreen,
I am curious, you seem to have the ability to communicate your beliefs rather well. You must have some intelligence to have been able to develop those communication skills. Unquote
-----------------
Thankyou for your comment.

Very simple really. I was well educated in the 1950s and 60s, joined the Military reserve as an Commission Officer, and in parallel the BC Public Service within Management of the Ministry of Advanced Education, Ministry of Education, and the Ministry of Labour.

I abhor the failure of both Management and Employee groups failing to come to an equitable agreement. There really is no need for adversarial hardened positions. Just about all issues can be solved through stakeholder consultations through established processes of justification and logic. Recent history, however has made the task very difficult especially when dealing with factions where concrete ideals appear without any give and take rational decisions.

The current dispute between the BCTF, agencies and the government demonstrates the failure of any sense of logic. Education of our kids is paramount and must be non-partisan, and must be well supported. However it must also be recognized that limits do exist. Education of our kids cannot logically be treated via the normal 'industrial union' approach to negotiations as there are a number of stake holders that must be included.

Education is clearly an inclusive exercise between parents, teachers and other life experiences that build and expand the intellegence and practice of our kids socially and academically. Competition in our world is fierce and we must ensure that we prepare our kids for that task. At the same time we must keep in mind that perhaps a 'cadillac' education system just might not be achievable given all the deamnds on our tax dollars. But we can optimise the system and make teh delivery of education fair to all!

Education must be neutral, must be efficient, must give all views. Therefore the stance by both the BCTF and the Government(and agencies) is not conducive.

Trust you understand my point(s).

sdgreen

http://www.bcct.ca/documents/cm/current.pdf

Check the current list of council members of the BC College of Teachers. I count sixteen, eight elected by the members (teachers mostly) and eight appointed by the government. I think you will find most teachers would like to see the college abolished. After all, we pay for it and do not even have majority representation on its council and it wastes our dues on glossy rags like the above url points to.

Robbins, that the government "doesn't have a plan B", as you put it, was obvious by the so-called source you dredged up yesterday.

The one who suggested Campbell would break up the BCTF and force teachers to apply for their jobs individually.

They are desperate if they are or were actually toying with that approach. Either that or your source has been smoking funny stuff.

His/her doom&gloom was a bit much once you look beyond the headlines. Has your source got back on that one yet, because it sounds off the wall even more today than it did yesterday.

To Uncle Jack

... and I agree with you! The College of Teachers and the BCPSEA should be abolished!

Well, Lynn, they can freeze the assets of the union, but the union consists of citizens. There is nothing stopping the teachers from contacting each other via their own emails, phones and faxes (as if the union's aren't theirs ha!) and meeting at each others houses and plan things at the local park if need be.

We still have freedom of association in this country.

Well lol means, laughing out loud. roflol means, rolling on the floor laughing out loud, and ROFLMAO, rolling on floor laughing my ass off.

lolol is a new one to me. Maybe, laughing out loud on lawn? :-) Laughing out loud on loo?

Right on Redrivergirl. thats exactly right and thats where, we, who support our fellow citizens need to take it.

If this dispute is still going on Monday I will drop a small wad of cash on the teachers at my kids school.

Right on, redrivergirl, only I'm sure those that slither and sneak down the legislative corridors are working on that one, too. :-)

Oh well, like Scarlet, let's hope that tomorrow is another day. :-)

Yes, I'm sure they're slithering as we speak but but best laid plans of mice and snakes...

Keep our eyes on Tara...

Pete, what they don't understand is for every action there is a reaction. Only certain types of people become subservient when faced with domination. Others get very fight back.

One thing I know teachers would really appreciate is a simple letter to the editor in support of their struggle and the implications it has on all people in this province.

I realize The Vancouver Sun and The Province are lost causes but smaller local newspapers are much more accessible and a flooding of letters has great effect, influencing the editorial opinion as well.

It's a small thing that everyone can do that really does make a difference.

Actually it is my understanding the The Province's policy of letters they actually publish is they count up each side of the issue and print whatever the ratio is. So if its fifty / fifty and publish 4 letters two from each position will appear.

So we should do as you suggest. Keep your points clear and interesting, within the 150 or 200 words and be colourful.

If your a really good writer you can chance going over the word count and they might choose it for their extended letters, the one where your snapshot appears.

I have had loads of letters published, theres a bit of a trick to it. Don't let it be just a rant, be clever.

I am going to drop off some cash to help them fight the neocons!

No you are not. Socialism has always been defined as:

"Someone who would give away the shirt off somebody else's back."

it is as if the Madam Justice put it in the Teachers court saying if its about money it is going to cost you so you might want to quit now if its really about the kids keep fighting!

So its up to us to help them out with some cash.

hey working person you are joking right? What would you call a neocon like el gordo a thief in the night?

allan-help me out here buddy. We post on one day-re source and decertification, the judge comes up with a 'unique' Order, and now you are asking me if my source is smoking funny stuff. Please follow the bouncing ball.

Do you think that the government would go back and look to change another law after this Order? Or if you are on the other side of this, the fact that the Order takes the BCTF out of the picture for 30 days, is this not a short term decertification?

Look, with all due respect Gretsky could only pass the puck if Messier was looking for it.

Hmmm. I am reasonably familiar with the Prez of the teachers here in my town. I will contact him and drop off my "small wad". Thanks for the suggestion.

And eh, BC Mary, Cumberland does indeed have a long and proud labour history. On the other hand, so do many "interior" BC towns. (Cumberland is one of my favourite places on the planet-, unless like many BC places, it too is being totally worked over by the strip mall culture of the tourism industry.)

Love ya, dahlin'. :-)

I here they are thinking about building a Wal*Mart in Cumberland. How convenient.

Robbins; I think the government is already into the back channels trying to find a way out of this mess and, frankly, the heavy ideas, such as your source's tip, have likely been tossed.

I'd love to be a fly in Vince Ready's office right now as he will likely be the guy asked to find an acceptable exit for one or both sides.

I do wonder what advice Wally Oppal is offering his cabinet colleagues. Surely he will make it clear to them they, at best, got a pass from the courts yesterday and shouldn't test the patience there again if they are wise.

I hope I didn't come across as being too critical of your source even though I found his/her tip a bit startling.

Given that Campbell's game plan was shallow and cynical and that they truly believed they could control the chaos they created, I do imagine almost any idea was at least looked at to form the basis of a Plan B.

But as I said before, outlawing a union and forcing workers to sign individual contracts, even if it would pass a Constitutional challenge, still opens the door to a very militant professional association much like the BC Medical Association that is unfettered by a jerrymanderable Labour Code.

The judge's order certainly puts the union in a limbo as far removed from the game as she could, so in that sense there is certainly a ring of decert. to the ruling.

But as others have said better, it's pretty clear she tossed the ball back to government.

Unions struggled and grew long before their were labour codes, recognized unions or any of the compromises labour has unfortunately bit into on the way to paradise.

If I were looking for a silver lining it may be in the fact that unions, workers and government now realize that a union isn't it's strike fund, its elected executive or any of the other tangibles, which can be taken away.

Rather it is the people and their determination to stand together. I think that effort is contageous and that other unions (especially public sector one), may be dragged by their own membership into full on solidarity with the teachers.

From my perspective, BCTF members now own this fight and will carry on collectively, but as individuals.

As a supporter of the teachers' fight, I certainly hope and would encourage other unions, union members and the general public to pick up some of the work the BCTF has been carrying on for its membrs.

If nothing else, rallying around your local teachers picket lines and encouraging the teachers to stay their course is an option open to us all.

The BC Fed and other unions have not been stopped from helping to organize the teachers' efforts, although I would expect if the fed were to find financial help for hurting teachers, the government through its strawman employers committee will at least try for an injunction.

VERY well said, Allen. It can't be made clearer than that.

For sure, it is now up to the unions' rank-and-file to put pressure on their leadership.

For Allan:

Yes your suggestion of 'rally-round' the teachers picket line is one potential.

Another is to stand firm beyond that line of pickets and turn to our elected officials and tell them that another alternative is needed.

Beyond any 'plan B' politicking, a real competitor for the teachers is called for, something that can apply pressure to thier service (yes teaching is a service like any other - it takes more than flipping burgers but a service it is) by providing an OPTION.

The public health system says that I may choose my doctor, and thus reward the one so-chosen. My children though, are forced to take what is offered in my school district in the way that it is offered NO IFS ANDS OR BUTS!

Get something different started, for if we continue to follow what we have done before, then we should not expect any other outcome than before.

el gordo is breaking the school system so he can rebuild with his twisted idea of what is good for us or his friends with capital! It really is all about greed with him!

Take the class size issue completely off the table. The gov't (Liberal or otherwise) is not able to determine class sizes by whim, the BCTF is always crucified by the issue when it comes to bargaining.
Let each School District hold a plebiscite, the public decides class size. Both parties must then work with it, and Districts that choose larger sizes will have to offer better compensation to attract teachers.