Teachers have historically reduced their salary expectations so that they could negotiate better classroom conditions (clase size, aide support, etc.) for the benefit of the students.
Campbell removed that in the stroke of a pen - teachers are fully justified in their righteous indignation.

Thoughtfully written, but truly from the perspective from what the teachers deserve, not the rate payer or user. Another issue is the nature of the BCTF, which has never cooked a deal in the last 17 years, and cant get over the fact that it is no longer running the tasks of the management and admin via an all encompassing contract. I believe that they are poorly representing a constituency much less confrontational and noisy than their union's rhetoric.

The fact is, government should provide educational services effectively AND efficiently- the only moral thing to do in a monopoly environment. If there are lots of resumes of young teachers on file with all boards in the lower mainland, then there is simply no reason to add cost to labour. Professionals wanting to live on the west coast take lower wages than other less desirable locations for all specialties. Paying teachers increases higher than other civil servants will simply not buy more education. I know I will hear howls that we are exploiting o new underclass of trained professionals, but lets look at the reaction so far to some small cost containment. With education funding increasing every year, while enrolment declines, we have seen no meaningful reduction in admin or maintenance costs, only cuts to the classroom. The average parent sees this as irresponsible, and if held hostage by aggressive action, will pressure public officials for alternatives to the traditional public school system.

'Teachers have historically reduced their salary expectations so that they could negotiate better classroom conditions (clase size, aide support, etc.) for the benefit of the students.' ('and the teachers union'). Lower class sizes means more teachers to pay the dues so that the BCTF can campaign against the gov't they're trying to cut a deal with, which is exactly what happened when Kit Krieger cut his infamous deal with Glennocchio. The irony there is that it was a good deal for teachers and the union but David Cubanovsky sabotaged Mr. Krieger so that he and his little band of radicals could take over lock, stock, and barrel to this day.

I wish the teachers all the best of luck. My teaching experience was restricted to teaching 10 week nightschool classes of adults and toward the end I could hardly wait to get it over with. Teaching little kids year after year is something I fully admire> they desreve the best of conditions and pay.

At the same time, I just read some figures that in overall, 20% of the Canadian public is illiterate and I can't understand why? Why do even the literate say and write "anyways"? When my son came home, about 35 years ago, using triple negatives I asked his teacher why they don't correct them ? Her answer was that it wasn't their job, but of the parents, as long as they write correctly. I reminded her that the parents of half of the kids in her class had problem asking for a glass of water in English.

Last May we had some friends visiting from Winnipeg with 2 girls, aged 7 and 10. Both could speak, read and write in English and Hungarian. A month ago we had other friends from Langley, whose little girl of preschool 5 speaks fluent Mandarin from her mother and reads and writes English.

My wife could speak perfectly, read and write in 2 languages by 8, in 3 by 17 and 4 by 20. When I went to school in 1933 in Hungary, we had 94 barefoot kids in my grade 1 and all of us could read and write by the end of the year. No illiterate child could pass into grade 2, yet, here, in the richest country on Earth, now we have university entrants who need remedial courses in reading and writing. Anyways.

We had a 15 year old Spanish speaking kid here a couple of years ago, who was in Canada for 1 1/2 years by then, just passed grade 8 and couldn't speak a word of English.

I wish somebody, especially a teacher, who could explain how and why these young people can pass?

And please, don't say anything about the lack of ESL classes. We never had any, and don't have any now, here in our small community schools, yet, children from Switzerland and the Ukraine speak read and write fluent English in 6 months. As far I'm concerned, ESL is a waste of time and money, but demanding reading and writing skills should of utmost importance.
Ed Deak, Big Lake.

I'm all in favour of substantial salary increases for the best teachers, regardless of seniority.

When I was a student, I had a great math teacher one year. He was a young guy who really knew his stuff. He made the subject come alive. He took a potentially boring subject and made it exciting. The enthusiasm in his voice was contageous. And he occasionally did this funny little dance in front of the blackboard as he explained concepts. Perhaps he studied drama at some point. Maybe every teacher should study drama - especially math teachers.

The next year, I wound up with a math teacher who was nearing retirement. He was a clockwatcher who clearly hated his job and was only there for the big paycheque. He didn't explain much verbally. He just told us to read certain chapters in the text book then write the tests. He never modulated his voice or showed any sign of enthusiasm. He droned on and on in a monotone. The clockwatching teacher turned his students into clockwatchers.

It's bizarre that the outstanding teacher received a smaller paycheque than the clockwatcher because of seniority. Not only was the younger teacher more deserving of a bigger paycheque, he was more in need of it since he was raising a family.

Any pay increase for teachers should come out of legalizing and heavily taxing marijuana instead of taxing poor people out of their homes with property taxes. I know a retired fellow in Burnaby who has to pay $4,000 per year in property taxes. Where is a pensioner supposed to get that kind of money?

When I was a student, at least 20% of those in the public education system were stoners staggering around the classrooms in a stupor. That included faculty. I understand the figure is now more like 40%. Maybe that's where the expression "higher" education comes from. B.C.'s public education system costs about $8 billion per year. The B.C. marijuana industry produces revenues of about $8 billion per year. What a coincidence!

Was horrified to read that one Grade 10 Math teacher of a class of 32 had 22 students in her class that had not passed their Grade 9 Math! Who on earth was responsible for that happening?

Good to hear of your comments Fiat lux. It seems that my daughter, grade 12, is incapacable of assembling coherent sentences, and yet gets mid 80's on her English courses. Academic excellence is impacted by many factors around demographics and classroom composition. I have read that in western high tax democracies, the birth rate has gone below replacement rate, therefore we are stuck with high levels of immigration to finance our social programs, which has the effect of Ottawa dumping ESL problems into our classes, impacting not just immigrants, but everyone, through the "dumbing down" of the standards necessary to pass the kids thru the system.

I support the restrictions to class size, but would also like to see some performance measures on how this condition will lead to better teaching for kids in the school system. Why is it that kids get report cards, but schools and teachers don't (with the exception of the Fraser Institute)? Why doesn't the BCTF get a report card from not only its members but parents, third-party educators, the general public? Who is best able to serve the educational needs of kids in this province?

As for the salary issue - get used to it. As a public sector employee, I too have had my wages frozen and like one of the earlier comments made, if you live on the West Coast, there will always be certain industries that will pay below par.

As my husband always says - if you don't like it, quit. There's plenty of young teachers who have would probably salivate at the prospects of being handed a full-time job rather than taking on-call sub work daily.

Lastly, I have lived in Vancouver my entire left and have been through at least 8 teacher strikes from elementary to highschool to university. This alone has eroded any sense of compassion/empathy that I have toward any kind of labour relations from the BCTF or teachers. Education is a right, not a privilege to be taken away when one feels greedy or disadvantaged.

"Was horrified to read that one Grade 10 Math teacher of a class of 32 had 22 students in her class that had not passed their Grade 9 Math! Who on earth was responsible for that happening?"

No doubt a crappy teacher. I'm sick of this B.S. myth out there that teachers as so great and terrific. I had a terrible in B.C.'s education system, much of that due to teachers. This has made me lose a lot of respect for them, and I don't really give a damn about their contract dispute.

Quite frankly, the salaries paid to teachers is quite satisfactory, and indeed they have kept up with the cost of living. To compare salaries to other provinces is not valid. The point that just because the government is currently in the black and that should justify major salary increases is also not logical. The Union cry that members should be awarded just because there is apparent money around is just not applicable in the public service. All this means is that they are demandning a greater share on the backs of the taxpayer.

Unions ought not to control the characteristics of either the curricullum or the general direction of education. To do so opens up a huge possibility of abuse by the labour movement.

The BCTF is a derelict labour movement that has demonstrated a keen interest in their own welfare at the expense of others. For some reason their ability to compromise, to negotiate escapes their mindset. This in itself must be counter productive in the overall labour movement.

About the only thing government should grant is possibly a cost of living increase and additional resources for the special needs kids.

There are other things that government ought to consider including triming the cost of administration in School Districts which in my mind is too top heavy. The government should take another look at text book resources and other general supplies.

Never the less, huge increases demanded by the BCTF should not be granted; all that does is increase taxes, and takes resources away from other essential programs.

" I had a terrible in B.C.'s education system, much of that due to teachers. "

A terrible what?

"Lastly, I have lived in Vancouver my entire left and have been through at least 8 teacher strikes from elementary to highschool to university."

It shows.

Y'all pretty much lost any credibility with me. Anyways... LOL

'Was horrified to read that one Grade 10 Math teacher of a class of 32 had 22 students in her class that had not passed their Grade 9 Math! Who on earth was responsible for that happening?' That's liberalism at it's best Maxwell. Students are often passed on so that they're precious little feelings aren't hurt and they aren't socially displaced. The kids catch on pretty quickly and incentive disappears in a big hurry. No problem anyway, since we have 'universality' in Canada. Don't worry, be happy, the gov't will take care of you as long as there are enough hard-working wage earners out there willing to sacrifice half their wages to taxes.

Sorry Stump, I meant a terrible time... if it wasn't for the lousy keyboarding classes!

Good to know all it takes is a difference of opinion to lose crediblity around here.

Fiat Lux and other "literates".

Many critiques of the students' inability today are written by those who were no more literate during their school years and who are still making errors themselves, despite adult awareness and all the extra years they have had to improve. Students and teachers are open game for constant criticism, but those who write here, for example, also submit writing riddled with errors. It's just that we're tolerant of our own imperfections and put them down to "typos" or "slips" or blame it on the computer programme that doesn't correct for us.

Example - copied and pasted from above:

"Her answer was that it wasn't their job, but of the parents, as long as they write correctly. I reminded her that the parents of half of the kids in her class had problem asking for a glass of water in English."

Why doesn't anyone correct it? ... because it takes time and energy for which no one is paying. Sometimes the effort isn't even appreciated. Explanations are in parentheses, as this format doesn't allow for columns or margins, which would be much clearer.

"Her answer was that it wasn't her (the antecedant was singular) job, but that (the word "that" must be included, in English, to refer to "job") of the parents who (the expression "as long as they" is unclear and could suggest that the parents may at any time stop writing correctly. It is also unnessecarily long.) write correctly. I reminded her that the parents of half the children in her class had a (the indefinite article "a" cannot be omitted in English, if you use the singular of "problem") problem (or "problems" in the plural without an indefinite article) asking for a glass of water in English."

Remember that the average Canadian teacher's expectations have been formed and endorsed by the university teaching program from which teachers graduate, and the ethos of the schools which teachers attended. If B.C. wants teachers trained in Asia or Hungary some travel money will be needed for our teachers to train elsewhere. A word of warning, however; - with present pay scales in the rest of the developed world, it is unlikely that they will come back. As former BC Boy attests, professional respect is superior to constant criticism from those who do not teach and have little idea what the job encompasses.

RGW
I found a salary grid for teachers in our district (Comox Valley) from 1995 and entered this amount into the Bank Of Canada website's inflation calculator. This gave me an equivalent amount in today's money. I then compared this amount to the salary paid to teachers in 2005. Teachers in this district were $5000 behind inflation over the past ten years. In that same ten year period, prices have risen substantially, including the cost of the average house, which has more than doubled here.
Teachers are keeping up with inflation? Not in this valley.
RGW

I think a raise for teachers would sell to the electors, but I doubt they would accept that the teachers would set class size. The BCTF's mandate is simply to get the best deal for teachers and keep the numbers up. That's it.
They are not concerned about the students welfare, that's not there job.
I am sure many teachers are concerned about students, but this must be separatrd from the actions of the BCTF.

I find it ironic that MLAs can justify an increase in their salary by stating that higher MLA salaries will attract better (read-more competent?) politicians, yet MLAs are not willing to apply the same logic to other public sector workers.

I suppose by privatizing healthcare (cleaning and meal services in particular) and the resulting pay cuts will result in less skilled workers and a more transient workforce (finding a better paying job, or not giving a shi... about the job that they perform for low wages)!

How do people pay for the high cost of housing, rising energy prices and subsequently consumer goods including food?

Ignoring seniority and benefits and pensions, I would suggest teachers (as the nurses had threatened) resign en masse and then watch as school districts scramble to find good teachers at less pay!

WOW! Luceo. Are you ever smart!

I'm surprised that all the striking workers in the province (CBC, teachers, TELUS) haven't bandied together yet under the Fed of Labour banner and staged something en masse in solidarity yet. The longer these strikes go on, the more erosion of public support. BC is, and will continue to be, crippled by labour relations and unions.

As for keeping up with the rate of inflation, gee. I wish I could use that excuse at my performance review in asking for a wage increase.

"How do people pay for the high cost of housing, rising energy prices and subsequently consumer goods including food?"

Get a better paying job in another sector. Cut back on daily expenses. Work another part-time job. Move to another province. Things we all have to cope with.

Lets all move to Alberta-no provincial debt there!

There is a government pension debt of 9,000,000,000.00$.

Let's stick it to the teachers, I am tired of them driving by in their Bentley's and splashing in their pools. Gala events every night without sign of work!!

Now, talk about our underpaid hockey players...

Probably nobody but a teacher really knows the working conditions in today's classrooms where so many students today are troubled kids from hellish homes. Not all kids, of course. But enough to disrupt.

The rest of us can yip about class sizes and taxes in the quiet of our homes. But a teacher is beyond price who can cope with classroom challenges like raw hunger, hysteria, despair, aggression ... and then actually give the students some hope for the future.

I wish to heaven there could be someplace in society where we could think about the common good. Maybe BCTF negotiations are the place to start.

While on the topic of teachers, let us not forget that B.C. school principals are the most highly paid principals in Canada.

B.C. school administration also has also grown ever larger, in spite of declining enrollment.

Do we see any government concerns about how much money goes into the bloated B.C. school administration?

I am curious about one of the above posters' comments on the BCTF's unwillingness to compromise. I always understood that compromise involved 'give AND take,' not just one or the other. The employer has consistently been willing during these negotiations to take--buying power, working conditions, etc.--but not to give a thing. This is hardly compromise.

I am also curious about some posters' apparently inside knowledge of the BCTF and their motives. It is easy for anyone to find the most cynical interpretation of any person's or organization's motives. We all "know" that lawyers are venal, doctors are greedy, businessmen are crooked, the wealthy are abusive and uncaring, the poor are lazy and stupid, teachers are incompetent, journalists are careless and biased, and bloggers are self-important individuals whose writing is unlikely to be published anywhere else. But I think that unless one has really sound inside knowledge of the motivations of a union as diverse and large as the BCTF, pronouncements regarding said motivations are simply blowing smoke.

Regarding the issues raised in the article, teaching is a difficult job that has been made more difficult under the Liberals. However idealistic teachers may be, they do it to make a living, too. It's not surprising that they might resist a slow and increasingly painful slide into penury.

It's nice to come back at the end of the day and finally read some kind and thoughtful words about teachers from a number of the posters above.

I had some great teachers in my life, just a few that were not quite so great...but that's life, right?

Teachers deserve to have their rights defended like anyone else...and their working conditions respected as well.

Until you walk in a teacher's shoes and deal with the multitude of issues that they must deal with, I'd try to be just a tad bit more compassionate.

That goes for the provincial government as well. They have done nothing but assault the professionalism of teachers through a constant campaign of intimidation. No wonder fewer and fewer university students are entering the teaching profession.

Don't let the facts get in the way of the truth. That's my response to many of authors of these responses.

Why mention that results of the PISA (international) tests written by randomly selected 15 year olds in over 30 countries consistently show that BC students rank within the top 3 jurisdictions on reading assessments. (Yes FIAT LUX, we outrank Hungary).

Or why mention that the reason our students score well on international assessments is because we do well educating all of our students rather than a select elite.

Why mention that the public education system has deteriorated over the last four years under the Cambpell government with larger class sizes, cuts to special needs funding (although a wopping $9 million increase to special needs funding to private schools was recently announced), cuts to counselling services and school libraries. All of which has placed greater strain on teachers who still strive to do their best.

Why mention that teachers have taken a net zero increase over the last two years of the imposed contract (the government only funded 2.5 per cent of the 7.5 per cent increase in wages. The later 5 per cent was paid through the elimination of contract language that capped class sizes and guaranteed an appropriate number of counsellors, special education teachers, and librarians in every school. Hence school boards paid for this increase by eliminating teaching positions).

And why mention that teachers like myself never saw a wage increase because I was a victim of lay offs and had a net loss in wages over the last three year period.

Instead, continue to demoralize our public school teachers with mistruths and outright lies and hope for a better system in the years to come.

I'm a teacher, Fiat Lux. A special education teacher at that. I can tell you why children who have not reached grade level expectations pass year after year. It's quite simple really. The provincial government, in their wisdom, decided that we (schools) weren't allowed to fail children. In my school district, we have to fight hard in order to retain a child .. no matter how far behind they are. We had school-based team meetings at my school today. We met with 4 teachers. Collectively, they referred over 10 children to Learning Assistance (me) and every single one of them is working below grade level. In two weeks time we will meet again and there will be at least another 10 children referred for help, all of whom are working below grade level. Teachers do our best, I promise you, but there is only so much we can do with the limited resources. Other teachers might flame me for saying this, but I would keep the salary freeze (even though I'm a single mom without any child support at this time) if we could get those supports back for our students. Government officials who have never worked in our schools should NOT be the ones making policies that decide who passes or fails, who decides support levels, etc.

a frustrated and very tired teacher

ahhhh dkom, you took the words right off my keyboard!! After having read all the posts, I was going to mention how BC's education system ranks in world standings. Finland was #1. I have heard the Minister of Education of Finland speak at a BCTF AGM. They don't have students who come to class hungry because they feed them. They don't have ESL students (although I have read here that's just an excuse made by whining teachers).

Those who criticize teachers because we have too much time off, get paid too much, etc. listen to this scenario. I live in northern BC. I did not take a cut in pay in order to live on the West Coast. I took a cut in pay to survive -40C in the winter lol. Did you know that a pulp mill worker makes $20 - $30k more than I do? Did you know that a pulp mill worker works less than half the year if you factor in holidays, bank time, etc.? I have 5 yrs. of university + courses I've taken during the summer + workshops I've attended on countless so-called wasted professional development days. A pulp mill worker (on average) has a Gr. 12 diploma. I teach the future of our country .. the people who are going to support all of us in our old age. A pulp mill worker makes toilet paper. Shows us where the priorities of our society lies, don't you think????

And now that I've caught up on my emails, I'm going to do a few hours of school work. But you know what? I'd never give up my career no matter how far behind the rate of inflation my salary falls. Why? Because if the government doesn't care what happens to our children, someone has to. And I will go out on strike, despite the fact that it's considered illegal by the Fiberals (although the UN begs to differ) because as the BCTF slogan says, "KIds matter, teachers care."

And, I was taught by BC teachers too. Notice any spelling errors?????

Go teachers go!

Public sector employees are being subjected to farcical contract negotiations. Salary increases may reach a maximum of 0-0-0 and benefit cutbacks are open for discussion. The process has become dictatorial. If this is the governmnents choice, they should own their actions and say so, openly and honestly.
Teachers have negotiated in the past for working conditions in exchange for increases in salary. The government took those working conditions away and salary discussion should therefore be back on the table.
A legislated contract of 0-0-0; or 0-0-and now we'll dust off the Wright report; or 0-0-5% will not allow teachers to recoup their losses or even keep up with inflation. Illegal walkouts will result. Perhaps that is the governments intention. Negotiated contracts or union busting?

Hello all. I am a grade 10 student, here are my thoughts about the teacher strike....

I agree that the class sizes are way too huge (french class of 36), but I think the main issue here is money. As for that, I think all the teachers are paid well enough, in fact, paid very well.

The teachers say that they are striking for us (the students) but in reality, the strike is for them, and it will hurt us. For me, extra curricular activities is what makes school more fun, and interesting for me and many of my peers. Taking that away is not going to help us. How will closing the schools help us? The teachers say they care about us, but going on strike shows that they dont.

I think the solution, though difficult in the short-term, is this. Fire all the teachers, and restaff the schools with all of the young teachers, fresh out of university who are waiting for a job. I bet they wont make trouble, or go on strike to make more money. I know a lot of young people waiting for a teaching position, they would love to work for HALF of what the teachers are making. So, Fire the techers, hire young blood.

I live in canada, which means I have the right to peaceful protest. As long as the teachers are on strike, I intend to exercise that right. They are starting tomorrow with "small inconveniences" such as not tking down the attendance.

Well, starting tomorrow, I and my class mates will be creating some "small inconveniences." Teachers often ask us to mark things, get books from the storage room, stack the chairs in last block, etc. Well, starting tomorrow, some teachers will find that we wont be doing those small tasks anymore. We'll only be there to learn, and nothing else.

I am also gathering a few people to make protest signs for use during breaks (15 minutes between each class) lunch and before/after school.

While the teachers are on strike, I intend to make things as unpleasant as possible.

BillyJones = Ron Erwin

BillyJones, extra curricular activities are what happens when teachers VOLUNTEER their time, skills & sometimes their money so that students can have additional experiences & recreation. They are not paid for it & they are not required to do it. Students & their parents often forget that extra curricular stuff is not a right.

BillyJones a grade 10 student? ... must have had some good teachers in his day.

I agree w/ stan.

Do you not agree that firing all of the teachers and hiring the young waiting people would solve a lot of problems?

I'm surprised you wouldn't want to shoot them as well.

Employees have the right to negotiate for fair wages with their employers in a truly free and democratic country.

If the employer refuses to negotiate then the employee has the right to withhold services...in a free and democratic country.

I know, I know....and I am OK with that, since I have the right to protest.

"Phase 1" of my protest begins tomorrow

Pretty good sampling of prevaling opinion here, I think. Basically, I favour the teacher’s perspective, and find it pretty sad to see how many of us have been so completely brainwashed into positioning themselves as the “victims” (as taxpayers) of teachers demands for equitable salaries. In doing so, we merely support the neocon’s efforts in convincing us to participate in the “race to the bottom”, while the financial elites - unopposed - “race to the top”’

For those who like to quibble about spelling errors, syntax, etc, sorry, it’s a modern phenomenon, with such monstrosities as pail instead pale (beyond the), tact instead of tack (on a different), and “general consensus of opinion”, being well-used by our media word-meisters. On this site, there, their, and they’re all seem to be interchangeable. The problem is, we can usually decipher what is meant.

So, if our objective is just to present little Johnny and Susie with that HS Grad Certificate, then run the school like a factory, using large class sizes, and techniques like multiple-answer tests. Oh yes, and things to raise “self-esteem too, lest he/she might think most stupidity.isn’t just mental laziness. You bet, this “competition” stuff is bad business.

When one looks at achievement levels from a cultural perspective, it’s easy to see that the reason why so many children of Asian immigrants excel scholastically, can be directly attributed to the support and encouragement they receive at home. Here, we expect the teachers to do all that. Isn’t that what we’re paying them for?

Sounds like a smart plan...I'm sure it won't affect your final grades.

That is, if Billy Jones is a student and not Ron Erwin.

Here is a novel idea: let's put the issue of teacher compensation to a proper test. Rather than allow cheap, cynical politics to dominate the discussion, we can assess the salary issue on a more rational and dispassionate level, rather like a real estate appraisal or a savvy consumer's approach to buying a new car. Okay, here goes...

1) The comparison method:

a) BC teachers' ranking (PISA stats on all indicators -literacy, numeracy, science): 2nd in Canada, 3rd in world. (Sorry, Fiat Lux, but your Spanish fellow seems like a strange exception; the ESL students at my school show considerable language progress after 1 1/2 years. Try getting him or her tested...)

b) BC teachers' salary: 6th in Canada. (Sorry, no global stats for this.)

Conclusion: either BC teachers are underpaid, or the teachers in the top five jurisdictions are overpaid. An increase of 12% - 20% would bring BC salaries in line with Alberta, and closer to Ontario.

2) Inflation/GDP formula:

Perhaps the fairest method for determining shifts in teacher compensation would be some universal economic referent such as the CPI or GDP.

a) If we used the CPI index, teachers would have little to complain about, as their wages would be inflation-based.

b) Conversely, if we chose GDP as an index, the voices calling for government cost control would have nothing to say, as the education tab would remain linked to the overall size of the economic pie.

c) Or take a hybrid approach: if we tied wage increases to both of these indexes, we could possibly get rid of the adversarial model altogether! Granted, there are other issues at stake, such as class size, but this approach would be used only to determine wage increases.

Conclusions:

a) the CPI model would call for a 5.5% catch-up increase, followed by raises of roughly 3.5% in each of the three years of the deal. Total package = 16%.

b) the GDP model would call for a package of slightly less: roughly 14%.

c) the hybrid package would total 15%.

Now, let's look at the proposals tabled by both sides in this dispute:

teachers' proposal = 15%
government's proposal = 0%

The last negotiated collective agreement was signed seven years ago, when teachers voted to accept 0-0-2% so that class size and composition issues could be incorporated into the deal. This government shredded those limits, and anyone with an ear to the rail -student, teacher, or parent - knows what that has meant for students.

In my high school, we don't have enough money for books, desks, chairs, shop supplies, and a zillion other things.

Gordo says repeatedly that there is more money than ever before, but that is really a lawyer's lie, kind of like Bill Clinton saying he didn't have sex with Monica Lewinsky. Check out the real figures and see for yourself. If one factors in increased payroll costs (MSA premiums especially), and subtracts extra funding for private schools from the government's claims, one gets a more accurate (and uglier) picture of the state of education in BC.

So when one looks at the whole picture, which side is tabling the more reasonable proposal?

Seriously, folks which

You doubt that I am a student? Well, I suppose I cant prove I am, but I go to London Secondary, we got a new vice principal this year, ms.mcfayden. I came to the school the same year the new principal, mr.mcleod came. Our portables got moved to the back field this year to make room for construction. In 2007, my graduation year, we are merging with steveston. London will then be (physically) the largest school in richmond. If you still doubt my identity as NOT Ron Erwin, there's nothing else I can do to help that.

Moving on. I realise that the strike will not affect my grade, but I dont like the idea that I am being used as a pawn in the teacher strike. Their goal is to use and hurt me in order to get what they want.

If they could find a way to strike without using me, I'd be all for it. But them using me to get what they want...it doesnt sit well with me.

Well put Davey-boy.

While the GDP model would seem to make the most sense to a government, the priorities of the BC Liberals is to further eliminate corporate taxes beyond the cuts in 2001. This, of course, would leave less to public services.

Hence, their justification for a net zero percent increase to public sector contracts is based on their own errors.

Billy, very few new teachers are waiting to be hired. I just graduated & I have a full time job. Most of my graduating class already have jobs. The best of the new, young & fresh have been hired & we are ready to strike.

Says Billy:

If the strike will not affect your grades then how is it hurting you? Teachers will be depriving themselves of income if they go on strike, so they are the ones who will be hurting in order to make their point. Going on strike is not a decision which is made lightly.

"For me, extra curricular activities is what makes school more fun, and interesting for me and many of my peers. Taking that away is not going to help us. How will closing the schools help us? The teachers say they care about us, but going on strike shows that they dont."

One of has to do their homework Billy. My understanding is that extra-curricular activities aren't being affected yet. If I'm mistaken, my apologies, but perhaps a teacher could confirm my impression?

"I think the solution, though difficult in the short-term, is this. Fire all the teachers, and restaff the schools with all of the young teachers, fresh out of university who are waiting for a job. I bet they wont make trouble, or go on strike to make more money."

Statements like that make me glad to be in a union, and gladder still that I'll be long retired before boys like Billy are in charge of things.

My advice to this young man is to look up and learn what the 'categorical imperative' is (Yes, I am vaguely Kantian despite its unfashionability) and then realize that his 'small inconveniences' would be reason for suspension or dismissal from school by his reckoning.

Jamez:

Apologies to you re: the credibility comment. I actually meant the other poster.

"Unions ought not to control the characteristics of either the curricullum or the general direction of education. To do so opens up a huge possibility of abuse by the labour movement."

Yes! Clearly the curriculum and direction of education belongs squarely in the hands of whoever (whomever??? now I'm paranoid about grammar in this thread... too many teachers ;-) is the ruling party at the time, who never ever let politics play a role in their decisions. Puh-leez.

"As for keeping up with the rate of inflation, gee. I wish I could use that excuse at my performance review in asking for a wage increase."

For starters, a performance review and a labour contract are two separate animals. To continue, just because you need an excuse for a raise, don't assume the rest of us aren't out-performing our employers expectations. And finally, just how far behind prices does one have to slide before asking for a raise to return your earning power back to its previous level? Getting no raise when inflation is occuring is the same as a pay cut.

"One of has to do their homework Billy"

One of us.... D'oh!

Live by the snarky aside... die by the snarky aside.

Hey Billy, we are all students and we are about to learn a lesson about union busting.

The BCTF has been set up and the lynch mob is being stirred up to a frenzy. Gordo's gang has been planning this for a long time and they are now ready and able to destroy public education. Kids like you have just been taught to think too well and it scares those in power. They would prefer to keep you simple.

No teacher wants to hurt you Billy. Teachers just want to be able to afford to send their own kids to college or university, pay their mortgages and heat their homes this winter -just like other people want to.

Lots of people with good union jobs and minimal educations beat teachers hands down with their pay cheques. Those unions will be picked off next,after Gordo destroys the B.C.T.F.

Can you say Telus Billy? Can you say Trail?

For goodness sake Billy do not go to university and waste all that time and money to get a degree. Don't even consider doing it in teaching. Just paying off the student loans would take you years. Imagine. Why would anyone do that? Get a real estate license or become a BCIT 12 month wonder. Do not ever consider teaching as a career. Just join a good union, if they still exist. You will make a lot more money than your teachers do.

Next, watch and see how many of your good teachers pack it in after Gordo guts the B.C.T.F. You will get your wish for young teachers. You will have so many young teachers working with a letter of permission. They will have no degrees, it will be just like it was in Ontario after the Harris government finished with the public system there. I personally know of two districts in Ontario where over half of the teaching staff didn't even have degrees because no one in Ontario was going into education. Ontario had to let all kinds of unqualified young people teach kids just like you. Young teachers with little or no training. Imagine those kids in grade 12 teaching you...thats what a letter of permssion teacher looks like.

B.C. will soon be like that if Gordo gets his way and I suspect he will.

So what would you suggest Billy?

Teachers have been the only people that ever fought to get you a small class size, a librarian, a special education or ESL teacher. They also give so generously of their time to coach your teams and help you in their lunch hours and after school, they do all that, prep, marking and correcting. How do they do it? The hidden hours of teaching that the public never really sees. Most teachers love teaching, that's how they do it.

So what would you suggest Billy? How can this be stopped? How can something fair be achieved?

If you can solve the mystery of how teachers can be taken seriously in B.C. without striking I would love to hear your solution.

Personally, I think every kid in BC needs to go on strike and take control of the education process. The adults don't seem to have any good answers any more.

"Billy, very few new teachers are waiting to be hired. I just graduated & I have a full time job. Most of my graduating class already have jobs. The best of the new, young & fresh have been hired & we are ready to strike." Hey Ruby, I'm going to call you on that one and say you're lying, unless those people are leaving B.C. to find their jobs. And shame on Billy for telling it like it is. Whatever was he thinking? I wonder if the poor kid anticipated the abuse he'd be getting from you whining losers.

"And shame on Billy for telling it like it is"

yes he did, he said he's going on strike, not because his grades will be affected, its because he doesn't like how he's being treated.

Good for you Billy, even Nemesis agrees that you sound like a young trade-unionist.

Well there you go, teachers think they are the best thing since sliced bread and demand top dollar for the butter!

Problem is it is the taxpayer that takes the hit. Those on pensions, those in the private sector and others who have to pay the high freight for those in the Public service. Yes teachers are part of the public service! They are servants of the crown. Teachers, like most public servants are basically guarenteed a job, get a pension and only work for about nine months out of twelve. They get to go on extended holidays and nice things.

In the meantime, the poor taxpayer has to foot their bill for the teachers extravagance. Teachers claim that they lack resources. Guess all those pay raises caused that or maybe the priority of other government programs like healtcare.

But the teachers do not care. They want ever more, they want to be top dog of the servants, to hell with the rest.

They are teachers you know, the annointed ones who think they are the greatest thing since sliced bread. Too bad we can't afford the butter!

Interesting comments.
As the original article points out we will be short of teachers soon.
However, some comments have proven my original point, lack of respect for teachers by government and society, and this will cause a "teacher crisis" for us in BC.
There are many good people in all professions !
People should stop projecting all of their frustrations onto other people and their chosen jobs.
I love teaching and I will continue to keep teaching !
No teacher is perfect, but I and many other teachers are always trying to improve.
For example, I don't want to teach at the same school, or teach the same subject for longer than six to seven years. Who wants to teach the same subject at the same school for over twent years ? NOT ME !
In fifteen years I have worked in a high school, adult education and I now teach at a university in South Korea.
Oh, by the way we aren't "..the greatest thing since sliced bread". The correct answer would be my cellphone. I can't live without it...so stay away from my constant companion !

Where is the greed in negotiating better classroom and school working conditions in exchange for $$? By any accounting method teachers paychecks have fallen behind in terms of inflation or cost of living, over the last dozen years.

At the same time, MLA's have received increased paycheques, and many government employees at the top end have received HUGE increases "in order to attract the best employees."

The myth that all public sector employees have taken 0-0-0 is erroneous. Previous settlements are variable. Crown prosecutors are in the midst of a lawsuit against the government over an arbitrated settlement that started with a retroactive increase of 18% and was legislated over to become 0-0-15%.

The emotional vitriol directed against teachers is stirred up by Mary Poppins expectations of what a teacher should be.

This is a contract negotiation for wages and benefits. The previous contract which included working conditions was ripped up and legislated over, I beleive during the middle of the night.

Let's stick to the subject. The desire for a perfect childhood with perfect parents and perfect teachers and perfect friends is lovely but it's unlikely that any teacher will meet every students needs each and every day, especially when they're teaching over 100 students per day, at the high school level.

Wouldn't it be great if the government negotiated a fair contract with modest salary increases and said, "we've got the best education system in the world, let's keep working together, keep up the good work, teachers!"

Luceo....... I never had an English lesson and it was my 5th language, of which I can still speak 3 in various degrees of disarray and my writings on economics have been circulated all over the world. In how many languages could you make the same corrections ? Keep smiling. Ed Deak, Big Lake.

Some questions for the posters....
1. Why is it a bad thing to be in a union?
2. How many communities count teachers as an important part of their economic base?
3. Who spends more disposable income (driving the consumer economy), poorly paid workers, or well paid workers?
4. How many of you anti-teachers oout there have ever spent a year in a teacher's position?
5. Do you beleive in getting what you pay for? Check out the quality of education in countries where teachers are poorly paid.

I could go on, but I suspect that deaf ears (closed eyes) await my post.

All I can say after the above emotional postings, is that I am glad my kids go to a school where the fully qualified taechers do not belong to the BCTF.
I can relax knowing they will not be subjected to job action.
I pay extra for this on top of my onerous taxes. Why? I don't know.
I would like to see a school voucher system that gives me $6,000.00 per child to use anywhere I want.

So, can anyone tell me why the wage feeze does not apply to administrators and management? They are among the highest paid in Canada. After teachers got 7.5% last time, and even though it was largely unfunded by the province, management in the VSB gave themselves big, fat pay-raises (some getting $10,000 to $15,000 more a year). I doubt we'll see 0-0-0 from school board management contracts around the province.

Sadly, It is no different than the Campbell government giving deputy ministers huge increases in salary while ripping up HEU contracts. They want to control costs at the expense of front-line workers, nothing more.

If that ever happens I'll start "Frank's Classy School" where I'll make the kids read their own texts, conduct their own tests and watch tv the rest of the time and give the parents $3000 of their $6000 back in cash. Laugh if you like but I'll bet a lot of people go for the cash.

I resent my tax dollars going to fund private schools. If they want to go private..than do so. They should be called public/private schools.

Holy Ratzinger, these comments are depressing.

Is it just a teeny bit possible that British Columbians resent well-educated people?

Cripes, if we can't respect teachers, nurses, symphony musicians, and all who are deserving of salaries somewhat equal to their years of study ... then what exactly do we mean by success?

Is this why Stockwell Day was able to achieve his 15 months of fame and adulation?

Fiat Lux: I could make those corrections in three languages (keep it in mind that the grammar is virtually identical, so that is, in fact, not an exciting achievement, Nemesis). I speak, read and write three, and can get around in the country of origin and read some, in a fourth. I studied Latin (5th), but don't count it, as I have only had one opportunity to speak it (in Belgium) at which time I decided to leave Latin on paper. English is my second language.

THAT IS NOT THE POINT. I am not the one claiming perfection. I just do my best. Language is not a high priority in North America, not even English. Why single out students and teachers when being negative and critical? A large percentage of the media can't distinguish between "there is" and "there are". Newspapers and the internet, which is frequently not even edited, are rampant with written errors. Students hear and read poor English every day and that is what they assimilate.

BillyJones: Why not simply get other professionals in your community to run your extra-curricular activities? ... Lawyers don't have court evenings and weekends. Dentists, architects and accountants offices are closed, ... many doctors are not on call. How about electricians, plumbers and contractors? Think of the opportunity for parents to get out there with their students and friends and perform a musical or a play, run a fundraiser for group travel, coach a sports team, monitor grad portfolios, or lead a web design club. Be positive! Are teachers really the ONLY people with any talent to share?

NorthShoreEd, RGW, Mel, BCMary, Birch, lynn, dkom, spedteacher, Ruby, Davey-boy, Stump:
Thank you for taking this discussion out of the personal and political realms and supplying some documented background and plausible solutions.

Why did teachers take so long to write here? ... They don't have any TIME. If teachers go on strike, they and their families receive NO pay for that time period. This is not a fair way to assess their value in our marketplace. The BCTF should consider permanently dropping ALL voluntary work (as it is not considered in any of the "time worked" calculations by either the public, the government, or some of those who write here). After coaching, sponsoring clubs and events, debates, supervising school dances, etc. teachers go home and begin marking, preparation, recording, individual reports, etc. That way, teachers would not have to fund their own increases, while also paying taxes without write-offs and accumulating NO business assets from their teaching careers. Some say they see no books leaving school with the teachers? That is because they have duplicate sets of texts in their homes and have purchased (out of that pathetic personal salary) compatible computers (no tax write-offs for these, by the way) to work at home.

"my writings on economics have been circulated all over the world."

No offense, but so have mine. Praise the Internet!

Anyhoo, It doesn't matter if you speak Klingon, Farsi, or Esperanto. We're communicating in English here. Let's not get into a battle over who can speak the most languages, or which one is better.

"Some say they see no books leaving school with the teachers?"

And if the teachers DID leave with books, they'd be criticized for not knowing the material. Welcome to Can't Win World.

Stump..........I agree. The most important thing is to try to think independently and express ourselves with reasonable coherence, without the constant repetition of slogans and cliches.

Luceo, after 7 + yrs. ( I never finished school, when my class matriculated, I was a POW), here's a Roman joke and about all what's left of my latin:
========================================
There was once a rich Roman merchant whith a son, who didn't care much about profits and accounts, but was always sribbling poems on his tablets.

The old man got fed up with the kid one day and gave him a good beating with a stick, until the kid started crying:

"PARCE PATER VIRGIS NUMQUEM TUBA CARMINA DICAM"
'Save the birch father I'll never say verse again"

Never mind understanding the words, but what does the rhythm of the words say ?

Cheers, Ed Deak.

Ok, I just have to point out the obvious: "Billy" is the kind of name people over 50 think that children have. There are no "Billy"s in schools today. There are Jacobs, Jacks, Keirans, Coels, Noahs, Max, and Zacks. Any "William" would be a "Will", not a "Billy".

In other news, no one's salary has kept up with inflation in the lower mainland if you factor in housing prices. I personally think that teachers should be paid extremely well. Lord knows, I couldn't do their job.

However, let us not forget that teachers have nearly 3 months vacation, can retire in their 50's, and earn lifetime pensions. Those pensions, since there are no longer certain deductions like enormous union dues, are nearly equal to a full teacher's salary. Pensions like that are very, very rare today. If we're going to be calculating salary, we need to consider lifetime compensation.

The bottom line is that people who love their jobs don't care about the money. Both the government AND the union , have failed to treat teachers as the professionals they are. Can you name one other educated profession that does not reward excellence?

"...my writings have been read on toilet stall walls all around the world"

Luceo; Wow! Are you ever smart!

Some years back in the small town I live near in order to cut costs that zany town council of ours decided to cut firemen! Management remained unscathed, some even received bonuses...no, it was those costly over-paid firemen that must go! Problem is when your house is on fire you need trained firemen, those administrators just aren't up to snuff...hard to manoeuver up the ladders in those grey business suits. ( Our infamous town council was turfed in the next municipal election.)

This is the same philosophy that permeates the Campbell government. Costs aren't really cut...funding is just diverted to those who facilitiate the agenda of this government...like health authorities, administrators, "friends" of the government and of course to members of government itself.

Our services and infrastructure in education, health, and senior care pay the price for the agenda of a government that is content to just "appear" as if it cares about health and education.

Its unwillingness to adequately fund and maintain these vital needs reveals its real interests lie elsewhere...despite their glossy, relentless advertising to the contrary.

Come to think of it it's the same kind of philosophy observable in New Orleans by a federal government which has little interest in maintaining infrastructure, too costly they say, so funding is diverted "elsewhere" in the interest of friends of the government like Haliburton .....whatever you do don't mention the war...

It is the same kind of thinking...if you dare to call it that.

I am always looking for good ideas to limit the power of public sector unions. The price we pay to cultivate a culture of entitelment is unsustainable and is lowering our standard of living.
The BCTF has us by the short and curlies and I have a sugestion. It isn't my idea, but it is working in several States.
Vouchers, give each student $6,000.00 ( or their parents an equal tax break ) and let them decide where they want to get educated.
If they want to go to a public scholl, fine. Let them gravitate to the best public schools and shut down the ones nobody wants to go to.
If a student decides to go to a private school, then they have $6,000.00 to go towards it. If there is a shortfall of money, the parents make it up.
By encouraging students to go to a private school you avoid the BCTF. ( private school teachers do not belong to the BCTF.)
This way we avoid their BS and can reward teachers who are excellent with a better salary that would be determined by the administrators of that school.
A win situation for everyone.

What you're proposing ron is not the voucher system that's being advocated for in some U.S. states. The whole idea of the voucher system was to give inner-city families the opportunity to attend private schools. The vouchers are not meant for everyone. In theory is to make access to education a little more equal.

However, competition and choice does not work for public goods (i.e. education). A voucher system would work in some ways like a regressive tax, with the poor taking on most of the costs - and by costs, i don't necessarily mean in terms of dollars, but opportunity cost.

Frank:

I'm laughing. PARENTS don't pay $6,000 per student. Taxes are paid (or should be) by all those earning income over the tax exempt minimum, including interest, profits and capital gains. Small business and tax-paying corporations all contribute to education. Sorry to be simplistic, but details are readily available, elsewhere.

If there were a substantial profit to be made from providing education, the private sector would already have its "School Chain Stores" up and running with brilliant, professional ads on TV, luring our students to "Wal-Ucation" and "McDonSchool".

Back to the Article. A few facts.

The Ministry of Education claims to be providing $7,079 per student, but the fact that schools are funded per student, has cost the school districts $207,414,700 in funding this year, due to enrolment drops since 2001 (-29,300). Students aren't cans of soup. The cost does not directly relate per unit. The whole building must be cleaned, heated and maintained. The buses cost more to run, parking lots cost more to snow-plough, and photocopiers, industrial education machinery, and sports equipment have not reduced in price, just because BC has fewer students. Phone systems, computers, and technology must be replaced and serviced. 113 schools have been closed and 2,500 teachers have lost their jobs in British Columbia. Support service employees such as CUPE have lost countless hours and jobs. Music teachers can be privately sued and will not be supported by their districts, if they break copyright on sheet music for their students. Teachers are purchasing school resource materials from their net (after tax) family incomes. The costs are infinite.

The employees have paid and paid. It's time for the taxpayer to step up to the plate, corporate, et altera.
__________________________

(Last two words, just for you, Fiat Lux, Birch, et altera.)

Sorry to disappoint you but it's true. Every graduating student in my specialty cohorts has been hired in BC. Every secondary & elementary teacher I know who recently graduated has a job somewhere in BC. There are not thousands of new graduates begging for work. UBC can't even fill all the spaces available in the Secondary Education program.

A lot of the people who graduate with education degrees do not go into education. If they do they are spending less time before they move to other opportunities. Dealing with other peoples children is not easy especially when you have the Ron Irwins of the world coming in and accusing you of being overpaid and not raising his little angels-who do no wrong-properly.

The righ-wing as been advocates of increasing production in Canada for some time, good. Where they fail is they think tax cuts will do this when education is the key.

You can rail against the BCTF but how much administration would it cost to negotiate individually with teachers.

There are two issues Canadians overwhelmingly support. Public healthcare and education. Too many politicians keep ignoring this.

The problem with the voucher system is the advocates can't explain how in real world application it will succeed.

Why don't BC School Districts sell their student parking lots, the lower mainland ones would fetch big dollars. The students would be setting a wonderful example by moving away from fossil fuel guzzling cars/trucks to either public transit, bicycles, skateboards or human terrestrial locomotion. (walking, for those of you who were moved forward before your time)

Check out the size of some of the student parking lots....do students who use them pay for them, they should.....Education has nothing to do with providing parking?

We could give the teachers a raise........

Luceo' sorry if I wasn't clear,but what I meant to say was that the Province could give a student a $6,000.00 voucher, not the parent. The parent could, however, if they were given a eqaul tax break provide the $6,000.00 could come from the parent.
Either way it's the same intention.

Mbraun' what do you mean by the poor having an opportunity cost. Would this voucher prposal not give oppotunities for the poor to go to better scholls ? I don't understand your concerns.

"...reward teachers who are excellent with a better salary that would be determined by the administrators of that school."

Now that is the funniest thing I have heard in a long time.

Many school administrators are over-the-hill phys ed teachers or wanna bes that could never teach effectively in a classroom. They were moved into administration because they are usless in the classrooms. (Not all but many.)

I can just see how this group would divy up money for teachers.

B.C school administrators would not be the highest paid in the country they would be the highest paid in the universe.

Give your head a shake Ronny. ROTFLMAO

OK I have to try to be fast because I've got to go back to school for Open House soon.

1) extra-curricular activities are not involved in the current job action. It is up to individual teachers to decide if they want to coach or not. Many are choosing not to because their workload gets pretty heavy with 30+ students.

2) teachers continue to take attendance. After the LRB hearings, attendance was removed from the list of "will nots".

3) I can't remember how much a "regular" education students are funded for, but I do know that a child classified as mildly mentally challenged is funded for $6000. That is to cover the cost of special education teacher time, teacher assistant time, and specialized materials / programs. Your voucher system may cost more than our current system.

4) why do you want to follow the example of the US education system? BC is ranked third in the world. US is down in the 20s somewhere I think. Their education system is ranked one of the lowest of all industrialized countries. You want THAT for the children of BC????

5) for those of you who think teaching is easy ... I wish you could come do my job and do it effectively for a week. Remember now, the supports for special education and other specialized programs have been cut under the Liberal government. Classroom teachers are tired and over-worked and stretched to the max with their larger class sizes so they need more support than they did in the past. The Liberals have ensured that my job entails not just my regular duties but dealing with politics too. If I had a nickel for every time I've heard a child, teacher, or parent complain about the lack of supports due to funding I would be a billionare and I would give BC teachers a raise!!!!!

I'm off to Open House now!!

Ron and those who think like him:

If you really think that life would be better without unions then perhaps you should read (or re-read) some of Dickens’ novels: Tyrannical employers abusing frightened employees; work houses (jails) for people who get sick or are fired and can’t pay their bills; education and health care only for those who can afford it; a small minority of extremely wealthy vs. a large majority of extremely poor. Organized labour spent most of the 20th century fighting for the rights of the majority and now Ron and like-minded would like us to return to Dickensian times. Shame on you.

rikia:

To go on full pension a teacher must have contributed to the pension corporation for the entire time that he/she taught, a major deduction from his/her pay packet. A teacher who retires at 50 gets nothing, no matter how much was accrued in his/her account. In B.C., the service plus age must add to 90 years for full pension, so by your calculations, someone who retires at 50 (+ 40 years of experience = 90) will have started teaching at 10 years old!

Those who retire at 55, the earliest possible, have a severely reduced pension for the rest of their lives, and the amount improves slightly each year until service and age add to 90. Teachers pensions are far worse than their salaries, and although union dues are no longer required, all heath care, dental care and extended medical must still be deducted. There is no way a teacher's pension could pay for a hearing aid (for example). Many who have the 90 year total served, are choosing to continue to work full time, because they still have children in university, or some form of mortgage/debt that the pension will not adequately cover.

By the way, if teachers are forced to go on strike, that time is subtracted from their experience and they will also have to teach longer to qualify for full pension. One more reason why strike is such a miserable last resort.

This is ALL publicly available knowledge. You can take any teacher's pay from the district's salary grid, plug it in to the pension corporation's calculator and see for yourself. They're rare, in that they are really that bad.

It's interesting to note that one of the brightest hopes for corporate management of education failed dismally in Pennsylvania. Shareholders lost their shirts and children and families were incredibly inconvenienced.

Those most critical of public education, who imagine that the private sector would be so much more effective, fair, etc. in delivering such a service are usually those who have the most superficial understanding (commonly based upon their own somewhat distorted memories of being in school themselves) of what is involved.

I would really encourage some of teachers' worst critics, a few of whom at least must be degreed people, to take the extra year or so of training and actually try the job that they see as all roses floating in gravy. The roses can wilt pretty fast, and the gravy can be awfully salty. But they really should try it out for themselves. And if some of them actually turned into good teachers, I would be the first to applaud their efforts and to support their right to a good living.

Luceo, you seem to have misunderstood my tongue-in-cheek post. As Ron, whom I was responding to, pointed out, he was advocating a $6,000 voucher from the gov't. I was just offering to then create a little racket where we would rip off the gov't and parents would get $3,000 in cash. The only drawback would be their kids lack of education but then many don't seem to care about that when they have google.

Fiat Lux: (an aside - off the point)

Before I read your translation, I got:
"PARCE PATER VIRGIS NUMQUEM TUBA CARMINA DICAM"

"Spare that cane, Dad, or I'll play my songs on a trumpet!" ("tuba" in Latin)

I get a regular long-short rhythm, except for "carmina" (songs) which is long, short, short, but haven't worked out its significance ... and now I'm curious.

Self-educated is educated, in my book. Sorry about the POW experience. You probably would have enjoyed and appreciated university courses.

The voucher system has been advocated by the American economist Milton Friedman, the virtual father of the Chicago School neoclassical theory and on the agenda of the Fraser Inst. since its inception as the Canadian advertising agency for the neocon/neolib ideology. See " Free To Choose" by Milton and Rose Friedman, taken up by Reagan.

Friedman also advocated the elimination of minimum wages, so that "employers can pay workers what they are worth to them" etc, and basically the elimination of government and the restriction of its powers to safeguarding investment and investors both at home and abroad, leaving everything else to the "competitive equilibrium of the market place".

Bush has just declared a total laissez faire free market economy system for the Southern States damaged by the hurricanes, where investment will rule and everybody else will have to toe the line, without any protection.
Ed Deak, Big Lake.

Why is it that the people who support a wage increase for teachers have, thus far, supported their assertions with solid data and statistical information, while the naysayers have failed to do so?

Two possibilities:

1) The naysayers are just being lazy, or...

2) The naysayers have endeavored to find support for their contention that the government's offer to teachers is justified, but have thus far been able to find any...

So... R.E., Nemmy, Green et al...which are you: lazy or dishonest?

"The roses can wilt pretty fast, and the gravy can be awfully salty."

Awesome not too salty vegan gravy:

Some oil, A clove of garlic. About a 300ml of water. A tablespoon of miso paste, a teaspoon of Vegemite, ketchup and Worcestershire to taste. Flour or cornstarch to thicken. Yum.

Thanks for the many great posts that have supported teachers and education in thus province. If you want to read some that do not support education of our children in the province, check out what the Minister of Education has to say. A couple of points that have nothing to do with the lead article. 1st, BC Teachers get a pension based on years teaching plus age. If one teaches for 35 years (full-time) this person gets a full pension. If one's age and contributory teaching experience (time) adds to 90, then the retiree gets an unreduced pension. This gets a little complicated so if you wish more detail, let me know. suffice to say, the teachers'pension plan is self funding, it does NOT rely on government handouts and garentees. Back in the old days with WAC Bennett, the fund was used to build the WAC Bennett Dam, at a VERY low rate of interest. On a second ISSUE brought forward, the washroom grafitti, here's one for you. "What is purple and commutes? Answer: "An Abelian grape." Isn't that funny!

To Stan,

What does the BCTF have in common with the unions that brought about changes in working conditions, working hours etc? Not very much! The BCTF represents a privileged class (88% or British Columbians earn less than teachers)and is indeed a large financial corporation
that has little concern for the working class or indeed the poor. Canadian teacher unions boast billions of dollars in assets in their pension funds and own prime real estate, plus the very corporations that teachers find time to condemn. These include coal mines, tobacco companies and those destructive exploration companies that do so much damage to the environment and health of people in the third world.
All of this is a far cry from my old union days fifty odd years ago when conditions, though not Dickensian were nevertheless grim by today's standards. We went on strike to improve our impoverished conditions and that of our fellow workers. Schools today boast so many wonderful facilities, resources and comforts. Paid for, and sustained by the hardworking taxpayers of this province - not the visibly well-fed officials down at BCTF headquarters.

Spedteacher:

You make some very good points. But I don't think third in the world is good enough.

Who's first and who's second? Let's find out what they're doing that we should be emulating.

To Finster,

Have you been in a school recently??? I don't mean one in N. Vancouver where the Parent Advisory Council is able to raise some real cash, but how about one north of Hope? You describe the schools of today as ones which "boast so many wonderful facilities, resources and comforts." Hmmmmmmm. It is Sept. 28. We have been in school since Sept. 6. Classrooms in my school finally got enough chairs and desks today. We have a computer lab that looks wonderful but not all of the computers work and we only see the computer techie 2x/mth. for a few hours at a time. Most of the really comfy furniture in classrooms was bought/donated by teachers/parents. All those bright decorations you see on the walls were paid for by teachers. Many of the books were too. And don't forget all the things around the school paid for by funds raised by the PAC. There are pairs of students sharing Science, Social Studies and Language Arts textbooks. Many of the textbooks are in need of repair. The Library is locked because the Teacher-Librarian only works in the morning. There are so many children who need individual attention but there's only one special education teacher and not enough teacher assistants. So where's this wonderful school you describe??? Tell us, please. I'd love to apply for a job there!!!!!

And rather petty comment about the BCTF Executive at the end. You obviously haven't looked closely enough or have been blinded by Liberal rhetoric. The President and Vice-President of the BCTF are very dedicated people. They care very much about the learning / working conditions of BC's students and teachers. All you have to do is have a conversation with them, as I have, to know that.

Thank you, Martin.

First in the world is Finland. I was at the BCTF Annual General Meeting in March and heard their Minister of Education (I think that was his title) speak. If you are interested, you can listen to his speech on the BCTF website (bctf.ca). I'm pretty sure it's under the section about the March 2005 AGM. He described what could only be described as the ideal education system. There were 500 teachers in that room and you could hear a pin drop while he spoke. And trust me, teachers are not usually the most quiet of audiences lol. All you could hear was the occassionally whispered "wow!" Students were fed in the morning and, I think, at lunch. There was more than enough funding to provide enough materials(textbooks, etc.) for students. There were full-time librarians and special education teachers; small class sizes ... does any of this sound familiar??? Don't know about you, but sounds to me like the BCTF is striving to be the #1 ranked education system. Too bad the Liberals want us down with the US as they continue to insist of repeating the mistakes made down south.

Sorry but I can't remember who #2 is. There's a website that shows the rankings but I don't remember what it is. I think it was mentioned in a post a while back though.

To spedteacher,
How come you are stretched to the limit when you have only 30 students? I attended school in the 1940s in Europe where the typical class size was 45. There was no library, often no paper, no counsellors or aides. Many of the children suffered from malnutrition and all seemed to suffer from boils chilblains, even ringworm. Food and clothing were rationed and all senior children (12 and over) had to work on nearby farms as well as in the school garden. This all helped to stem off hunger.
There was often no fuel to stoke the boilers and the mid-day meal was cooked over a solid wood stove - the students helped with the chores.
The toilets were the outside variety - near to the air-raid shelters.
Why did I learn to read and write in several modern languages as well as having the opportunity to study ancient ones?
In stark contrast, my children (educated in B.C.) have had the most wonderful schools and amenities that money could buy. Yet their education is sadly lacking in almost every area - especially in languages, math geography and history.

Spedteacher; Cry me a river! If your 9 month a year job is so tough, or, as your union reps like to say, 'draconian', get another bloody job. But please please please, quit complaining about your horrible working conditions and all your marking and your 3 or 4 parent nights a year. Suck it up, you're making me nauseous.

And you're embarrassing the good hard-working teachers out there who appreciate their jobs and are happy to have them. The rest of you are a bunch of snivelling crybabies as far as I'm concerned.

Like BC Boy I taught in Asia for four years. I LOVED it- I loved tutoring privately in people's homes (which is what I mostly did the last two years) and in the end it was the environment that sent me screaming for the clean(er) air and greenery of this lovely province. I miss my students- I taught all ages, from 4-65, and I also miss not worrying about finances for ONE SINGLE MOMENT in all those years... pretty crazy feeling, which try as I might, I can't recall now... Nowadays I work parttime in the fitness industry (always a teacher at heart, I suppose) and I still tutor- I have many Korean ESL students who are in the public system but need extra help writing essays. Their teachers don't have the time nor resources to give them individual instruction, which is fine by me because it's possible to make a pretty lucrative career out of it- in a clean and beautiful environment, to boot. Don't kid yourselves- if those teachers don't get what they want- a lot of them will be walking. All it's going to take is the guts to buy a plane ticket and find their niche overseas. Never mind pensions- you can save more working overseas then you're ever going to see from a Canadian pension if you stick it out long enough- and gain a fabulous experience along the way.

"I attended school in the 1940s in Europe where the typical class size was 45... Food and clothing were rationed and all senior children (12 and over) had to work on nearby farms as well as in the school garden. This all helped to stem off hunger."

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What about the real issues? How far you had to walk and how deep the snow was?

It sucked in the past. You overcame it. Good on ya. We get it. We're talking about the future... in a world where there is no reasonable explanation for equipment and supply shortages except a tight-wad ministry and a cabal of elitists. Let's face it, educated free-thinkers don't "suck it up." They bitch when they're getting f*cked w/out so much as a kiss. They point out hypocrisy and inequality. Cogs in the machine don't need opinions, and oligarchs would prefer they didn't unapproved thoughts.

Really, some of you people... I understand you don't share the majority opinion around here, but your venom and vindictiveness suggests to me that your deep-seated insecurities can only be assuaged by tearing down everyone who doesn't share your small-mindedness. Go re-read The Fountainhead if that's what gets you off and let those of us who understand that a world where we ARE our brother's keeper surpasses a kill or be killed planet. We've been down that road before and there always ends up being too many bodies in the ditches.

To Spedteacher,

First in the world is Finland! Interesting that the Finns can be first in the world even though they spend considerably less on public education than Canada or the U.S. Rather proves - for those people who believe in these tests that money isn't so important! Moreover, New Zealand which it seems does very well on PISA tests spends less than half of what we do here in Canada.
Quite frankly I don't go along with these international tests. I believe a country organizes its education around its needs, culture and environent - things that matter most. However, if there is an international test that is worthwile it is not PISA but TIMMS. A much more thorough test in math and science and shows countries such as Hungary, Slovak Rupublic, Korea and Switzerland ahead of most English speaking countries - not to mention Finland.

To Stump,
Why are you angry because I share my life experiences with you and why do you call me small minded?
Just asking!

Finster rambled...

Agreed, however, school was viewed as a “privilege” then. Sure, there were not any teacher aids or counselors, but the teacher could give a student a nasty whack when dealing with behavior issues.

Also, if a student was not working, you better believe that he was discouraged from attending. He was told to go to the mill or the local farm to seek employment. Remember those days? Times have changed, and a student needs a Grade 12 education for even some of the most basic entry-level jobs. And let’s face it; there is a segment young people who would rather be working instead of attending school.

This is such an unfair generalization. Have you seen what young people can do with technology? In fact, I believe that our system holds them back because there is not the technology in the classroom to keep up with what they can do. The teachers almost need to get out of their way!

If you want a computer system and a network set up in your home, take a walk down to the local school and put an ad in the schools daily newsletter. I bet there would be at least a dozen students that would rush to provide services.

Students leaving high school know lots of history, math, and geography (if they choose those options). It’s too bad they lose the passion for it when they hit the grind of adulthood.

But that happens to all of us!

To Finster (re 1 hour ago):

The Campbell government and their sycophantic supporters at CanWest would like to weaken or eliminate all unions in this province...look what they've done to the HEU. I think that rather than begrudge what the teachers have, working people must support each other in the fight for respect and improving our standard of living. That is, unless you want to go back to the “good old days.”

Finster .. I appreciate the hardships you endured in the past and I respect your accomplishments. That being said, why should the children attending schools in BC have to be in classes of 30+ when the government has a surplus? BC is not suffering from the effects of a war, after all. We are too busy preparing for the upcoming Winter Olympics! Read the research. Anyone can see that smaller class sizes = higher student achievement. Teachers aren't asking for smaller class sizes so that they can have a smaller workload. They are asking so that their students can have a better education. I am a special ed. teacher and I love my job and my students. If the conditions in our schools are returned to those of 2001, I would work just as hard as I am now but I would be able to reach more children and get to more of those things on my "To Do" list. That is the same for every teacher I know. I really don't understand why people have such a difficult time seeing the relationship between learning and working conditions. I am not whining when I want what's best for my students.

In regards to Finland: did you look at the site I recommended? The curriculum in Finland is developed by working teachers. It is not revamped every time a new Minister of Education decides to make their "mark" in education and tries out some new theory. You know how much of the taxpayers' money was wasted on the Primary Program back in the late 1980's? I know it must have been a lot because I saw all the wasted materials the government provided schools and then decided to scrap the program. And that's just one example of what's happened in BC. Finland gets more bang for their buck so to speak because of the organization of their Ministry of Education as well as their hard-working teachers. We just have hard-working teachers in BC.

Finster:

Sorry. I mixed my response to you, with my response to Nemesis. Consider most of the first para. as meant for you, with tongue planted firmly in cheek. The rest was for a few regulars who equate common sense with a communist plot.

And in re-reading my post I see I dropped a word or two as always. Can we get an edit feature around here? Will I ever learn to proofread? Measure twice, cut once Stump!

I went to an alternative school in the seventies. (in Ontario - funded by the Board of Health because, I think, the Board of Education didn't want to acknowledge the level of frustration students were feeling at that time)
My children were raised in B.C., I sat as a PAC president and valued many of their teachers.
I now live in Saskatchewan and am putting my kids through post secondary education.
I was thrilled to get out of the "public education" system, it didn't seem to fit with the lessons we were imparting to our children. But that didn't come from the teachers, it was government.
I really wish that people would stop denigrating unions and teachers. Unions have long set the standard for non-union workplaces and wages. Teachers are, unfortunately, treated as over-paid baby-sitters.
We get what we pay for, I want us to realize that the next generation needs to be well educated and satisfied.

For me, this thread's been an education in itself, folks. Thanks for your patience. Even Himself caught fire and tried to string a few semi-intelligent words into a full paragraph.

Some of you mentioned dealing with such parents at parent-teacher interviews. I cringe at the idea of anyone ever having to so while being forced at the same time to maintain some semblance of civility.

"Students leaving high school know lots of history, math, and geography (if they choose those options). It’s too bad they lose the passion for it when they hit the grind of adulthood.

But that happens to all of us!"

Well, I had some good teachers. Especially my mother (who's a teacher). They instilled a love and respect for learning that has lasted long after I've forgotten what a quadratic equation is or why I needed to know. So, for those of us that didn't lose the passion, I'm willing to bet it's equal parts natural curiosity and learned behaviour at the feet of our instructors.

Stump:

Common sense = communist plot.
Interesting.

And sensus communis?

Humanity and sensibility.

The Romans had it right.

Thanks for the apology but as the new guy on the block I expect a bit of flak.

One of my classes of 35 had the following:
1 severe behavior disorder (with no support worker, psychologist, or even a behavior plan for when this kid is out of hand, which is daily)
1 mental illness (without support, behavior plan etc)
2 moderately mentally challenged special needs students (with 1/2 time support)
4 ESL
1 aspergers syndrome (no support)
1 pregnancy
5 learning disabilities
So that means nearly half the class has some sort of issue going on. This example is not unusual.
Lets also not forget that students are still coming to school hungry, that hasn't changed.

Moat, I wrote 1940s not 1840s, indeed school was not a "privilege" - children completed nine to eleven years. Your idea that in order to access jobs a student requires a much higher standard of education today is not altogether correct. The majority of children took school leaving tests at age 15 or 16 these were at least as demanding as the grade 12 examinations of today. Your memory is obviously failing.

I agree that students and their technology is, for the most part, ahead of their teachers. I find the teaching profession somewhat Luddite-ish (oh dear another gross generalization) about new technology. Some years ago both the college and local school called on my company's help to do a bit of instruction and to sort out some computer problems.
We volunteered our help - unlike the BCTFers who are generally Sophist by nature.
And anyway were clueless!

Ruby.
My sympathies but the ratio of students to teachers is less than 17. So what were all your chums doing? Obviously there is a waste of manpower in your industry. As for hungry children. If children come from families who cannot afford food why are you, already at the top of food chain when it comes to salaries, demanding a raise?

It might be an idea to get rid of the pop machines and junk food in schools install canteens where at least kids could get one meal a day. Not exactly rocket science for people who are supposed to set an example in mutual respect, problem solving and social responsibility.

Let's go back to the original theme of the article - why teachers are primed to strike.
I'm a teacher and I voted yes on the strike vote. For money? No. For a return to real collective bargaining? Yes. Teaching is not an essential service, therefore the government took away my human rights to bargain in good faith. In democratic countries contract negotiations are undertaken, bargaining goes back and forth, and a compromise is reached. Unfortunately, it is an adversarial system, but I believe better than dictatorial legislation. There has been very little labour disruption in the last eighteen years I have taught in B.C.
Why is it threatening now? This government has set teachers aside from their colleagues across the country by declaring education essential, legislating contracts, and making bargaining a farce. BCPSEA has absolutely no mandate to negotiate anything that has a cost factor attached - and guess what, most issues do. So what we have here is not bargaining, but imposition. I'm angry about losing my right to withdraw my labour, legally, whether I choose to exercise it or not. I'm angry that the government chooses a bargaining agent that is at arm's length from it, and gives them no power to truly negotiate. Talk about a waste of resources.
I would like my union to be able to bargain working conditions and salary freely, as teachers in Alberta can. When two sides bargain freely, offers from both sides are put on the table, and in the process of give and take, meet somewhere mutually acceptable.
This government, I suggest, has hidden agendas. At the moment, I want my human rights back.

alpinedays writes:

Nail on head.

Bravo.

Finster, you're hard to figure out. You provide reasoned comment, then come out combining two unrelated comments like this:

And do you know what "the race to the bottom" reasoning is?

Then you come out with this whopper. Are you unawares this has nothing to do with teachers but instead with the need of School Boards to make money in the first instance, and in the second, to save money?

Are you a troll, or one of Campbell' clones? IMHO, I think you're a plant with a phoney story.

Ruby' why did you get into teaching ? Didn't you know your class would be like the real world? You know the mix in life generally is somewhat like the way you desribe your class.
Would you be in favor of sorting students out into ESL, special needs, regular, genius ?
I think this existing system is goofy. It's all about being inclusive, it's not about teaching 6 x 9 = 54.
This is a joke, I support vouchers where parents can make choices to avoid the public school system and especially the BCTF mafia.
This system is organized crime at it's best.

About the famous RATIO

The "ratio" is a mathematical blind for the public, put forward to deliberately reduce student/teacher ratios and is not unique to B.C. Let's take any secondary school block of time. With a ratio of 17 to 1, four teachers would have 68 students. But in any block, one of those teachers is a teacher/librarian and another a counsellor, both with no students. That leaves 34 students to be taught by "enrolling" teachers at that time. Divide the whole 68 students between the remaining teachers and they have 34 each. That is a simple and exaggerated example, but you cannot divide the students by the teachers and have a "truth" about class size. What you get is a MYTH with a purpose, which is not even remotely close to statistically justifiable.

Schools should be staffed student need, rather than by easy numbers. If 60 Grade 11 students wish to study science, 30 chemistry and 30 physics, all is well. If 50 wish to study chemistry and 10 physics, the physics class will not run, because the staffing is provided on students divided by staff. This is also why a teacher will end up teaching something which he/she does not want to teach, or for which he/she is not qualified to teach. It's lack of funding.

22 Math students behind grade level..

As for 22 math students a year behind grade level! - dreadful for the teacher and the remaining 10 to 15 students, who, because of general BC staffing policies, will be doing the same course. (If not, by the way, the teacher now has two separate courses to teach. Many teachers prepare more than two courses per class. Sometimes they also have to prepare IEP's = individual education programs, in their courses, for students who are 5 or more years behind, or prepare completely different material for a student who is legally deaf or blind. Multiply that by an average of 7 classes per secondary teacher). The cause? Lack of funding.

Consider this. If those were the top 22 students of those who failed and there was no scheduling space for them in Grade 10, the administrators' other option may have been to have 44 repeats in the same Grade 9 class! Who would like to teach that one! Many schools have "streamed" math classes to attempt to remedy problems of that nature. LACK OF FUNDING is the foremost problem in creating a school timetable. Why can't repeats be spread over 10 other classes making 10 more classes with 35+ students? Because then the student doesn't have a space in his/her timetable for Grade 10 English or Planning 10 (both compulsory) or they can't repeat English 9, which they also failed! ... or, the school is too small and doesn't have that many Gr. 9 math classes. A school schedule is wrought with interrelated variables and those of you who IMAGINE you could run a school better than our existing public school staffs are the real "whiners and dreamers".

correction: above - paragraph 2.

Schools should be staffed by student need,

I love my job and I know whats out there. I was merely trying to explain to a previous poster why teaching a large class size today is very different from 50 or 30 or even 20 years ago. Those 15 high needs students would not have been in a regular classroom or possibly even in school at all back then. One of my teaching areas is special ed so your suggesting that I might support separatism for students is ridiculous.

Ruby:

"Finster" is German for "dim, dark, morose, or sad". Right Fiat Lux, Birch? ... and this is a self professed "parent" questioning YOUR ethos, Ruby. I would entrust students to you and I'd give you a substantial raise, too. Also, you, spedteacher, and alpinedays, should have the right to have input into the learning conditions of students, often synonymous with the working conditions of teachers. You are standing up for B.C. students.

This person doesn't even know that the local executives (staff reps., committtee reps. etc.) of the BCTF are voluntary (unpaid), but for some presidents, or that the Local Area Reps voting at BCTF Annual General Meetings, etc., are volunteering their time to represent the other teachers in their locals. Only teachers are paying for the BCTF executive, so if they don't like it, they can vote for someone else.

Finster; - If you're not a BCTF member, you have NO say.

The name "Finster" is accurate, however.

Luceo, I didn't question Ruby's ethos.
But your German translation is accurate.
Alpinedays may figure out the origin of my name - lots of sunlight up there. Lighten up!

"This is a joke, I support vouchers where parents can make choices to avoid the public school system and especially the BCTF mafia.
This system is organized crime at it's best."

Parents can choose to avoid the public system. There's lots of private schools. What you really want is for the public to finance your choice to go private, beggaring the public system in the process. Guess what, if the little darlings' education is so very vital to you, you'll find the money. Or do you support the idea that personal choice should be financed by the public purse?

Organized crime indeed. Do try to avoid the ridiculous hyperbole. You might find someone actually taking you seriously.

Try to tell me I'm just a whiner when I make $56,000 a year after 18 years of teaching (some part time raising children), and years of university, with an extremely important responsibility . And the mill worker down the street is making $70,000 and the school janitor is making $45,000

Tell me I'm a whiner when I get almost no help with my students even though I have a severe behaviour ADHD boy in my class who is buzzing the whole day through, interupting everyone, and hitting other children.

(The Campbell government will only fund help for one hour of E.A time a week for a child determined to be so dangerous to other children he has to be shadowed everywhere on the playground.)

This is in addition to 6 incredibly low ones who probably have Auditory processing disorders or some other learning disability and won't be tested until grade three. (Because there is not enough funding) This after their self esteem havs suffered and they are incredibly behind.

This is also in addition to 3 other behaviour problems.

Tell me I'm a whiner when someone says you're a second class citizen with no right to bargain your contract, and by the way we'll just rip up your old contract because we don't like it. And you can't be trusted to govern yourselves so we'll throw out all your duly-elected representatives and put our own in.

Tell me I just a whiner when I have to stay at school until 11 pm two nights a week to keep up, if I want to create meaningful experiences for my children.

Teachers are taking job action because it's the right thing to do....for the kids...and for us.

Welllll I think this is all going to come to a head next week. It's looking like Campbell and his cronies are getting set to impose a contract on teachers again. Then it will come time for teachers as a whole to decide if we are ready to back our concerns for learning/working conditions in our schools with some real action. For those of you who think teachers blindly follow the BCTF's lead, you may be surprised to know that there will be no changes to the job action plan without a vote of the membership to decide the next course of action. I am hoping that teachers will not be cowed by threats directed at us by Campbell and Bond. I am hoping that teachers will fight for what is right .. learning/working conditions back to the levels of 2001 and the right to free and collective bargaining.

They call us an essential service when even Gordo has pulled his children from school to go on a family trip to Hawaii of all places!!! Why can parents pull their children from school to go on shopping trips or vacation yet teachers cannot strike for the rights of these same children? These parents are, after all, depriving their children of what the Fiberals call an "essential service". Don't you see the irony in that???? I guess shopping trips are far more important than smaller class sizes and supports for students in the eyes of these people????

Why is it acceptable that the MLAs and even school administrators got a raise but teachers are condemned because we'd like to attempt to keep up with the rate of inflation? And the raise isn't even the biggest issue for many teachers. Please do NOT believe everything you see in such biased reporting of Global TV, etc.

I listen to parents complain about what's going on in our schools and I encourage them to write to the papers, their MLA, etc. I thank those parents who have posted positive comments here. Thank you for recognizing the real issues.

Did anyone see Jinny Sims on Global Friday night? She does not engage in the childish namecalling exhibited by Shirley Bond and Gordon Campbell. She handles herself with grace as she refutes the government's inaccurate information with real stats. The government recognizes the support the public has for teachers and now they are trying to lay the blame on the school boards. Give me a break.

... for the union busters - privatization in real life.

If all the schools were privatized tomorrow, the BCTF (British Columbia Teachers' Federation) would stay in place ... So scrap that little dream right now, would-be slave owners! Do some of you think that private companies have no unions? In the EU, in the Republic of Ireland, with a population similar to that of British Columbia, virtually all the schools are privately owned. The country has two large national teacher unions WITH THE RIGHT TO STRIKE, both formed while the schools were privately owned: the ASTI (Association of Secondary Teachers of Ireland) and the INTO (Irish National Teachers' Organization) for all primary and elementary levels. Irish teachers make much more than B.C. teachers. This is publicly available knowledge, very likely already known by BCTF researchers.

The BCTF already exists!! Why would it change? It would be as needed and as strong as ever, and private employers would not be able to legislate their side of negotiations. It sounds as though it could be a major improvement for the rights of B.C. teachers.

Who would these wealthy school owners be? ... usually large, organized, churches are the only ones willing to forfeit that much money for control over education, and all the schools are government subsidized with tax dollars. So you would pay less if you're non-religious (just taxes, no church dues) but, on the other hand, unless you are very wealthy, and could foot the extra educational bill individually, you would be forced to send your children to a religious school and your tax dollar would also subsidize all religion classes as it does now for many so-called "private" schools. (Of course, you knew that you are paying taxes for religion classes).

The whole private sector knows that running a public service is NOT and never will be, a profit-maker!

tired teacher,
Your post was amusing if not very sad. You have been teaching for 18 years and only make - whatever. And you are tired. Pathetic.
I have been in the workforce for fifty years and make less than Ruby who is, I believe, a first year teacher.
I'm not tired even though I have worked 60 or more days since the end of June. Schools have had only 13 full days of instruction since that time. Some of my days have been fourteen hours, though most have only been around ten. Since June, I have still found the time to instruct some outdoor courses in the alpine - snowcraft, rock climbing etc. Not that easy for an old fart like me - but it gives me great joy to see young people learning about the outdoors and embracing the natural environment.
In the past 21 years I have taken almost no holidays - just a few very hurried camping trips with my wife and kids - none as long as a week.
You see I run a business that is, in very many ways, as demanding as your job. I'm not putting you down, merely suggesting that there are other tough jobs around.

Nor am I complaining about my salary I took many risks and if they didn't quite pan-out the way I'd hoped too bad. That's life.

I have no union to do my bidding and live by the seat-of-my-old-pants. I have no fat pension to rely on therefore must continue to work. Too bad - that's life.

I've been fortunate enough to have lived and worked in eight different countries and learn about other cultures first hand, as well as learning languages.

So far on this forum I've been called: small-minded, dim, dark, a "parent", a plant (whatever that means), a Cambell's clone and been accused of "rambling on" "gross generalization" and being insecure.

All these ad hominem comments give me even less faith in the teaching industry than ever.

I don't usually make ad hominem attacks but in this case I'll make an exception.

tired teacher - you are a bloody whiner and an embarrassment to your profession.

Finster

Quit your whining. If you had any foresight, you would have set up a pension plan for yourself. Maybe you need a union to help you. The teachers have set up an organization to help them jusy like the business people have set up theirs - Business Council of BC, among others. People in this country have a right to organize. You wish to deny some of the citizens of this country their rights. Perhaps if you exercised a little more foresight, rather than shooting from the seat of your pants, some of your plans would have worked a little better.

Tired Teacher

Hang in there, life my get tough in the next little while, but it will get better.

Nrrth of Hope,

I wasn't whining. Read my post. I'm happy with what I have and am not using kids as leverage to gain more money.

I am an award winning, beloved teacher who was an administrator by my fourth teaching year. You don't know me so how can you say I am a disgrace to my profession? Especially when I work two fourteen hour days per week to do a great job.

You wouldn't last 10 minutes in my class.

tired teacher, you are complaining about your working conditions and threateining to go on strike for more wages - 88% of British Columbians earn less- most much less. You've worked 13 or 14 days so far since June. I share my experience with you as bit of a comparison. Have you any idea what the business world is like?

Schools should be places of love and understanding. Your unions turn them into places of conflict and distrust - all over money. You people fight with everybody - parents, administration, government - you never stop!

The whole point is...I SHOULDN'T BE TIRED!

The Campbell government has decided that the bottom line rules over children so it made cuts that mean I don't get the support I need to do a great job and not be overwhelmed, support that is desperately needed and would have been in place before.

Money is only one issue, and is certainly not the most important. There were several times in the past when teachers chose things like lower class size and more support for kids instead of a wage increase. Then the government took those things away when they ripped up our contract. Even the United Nations said what Gordo did violated basic workers rights and was wrong.

Do you tell the doctors to stop whining and be happy with what they have because they make more than everyone else? Their job, the level of responsibility they have, and the amount of training they had to undergo make their wage sound reasonable. It's the same for teachers.

Finally I have taught for 18 days this year, but I have also been going to University for half the summer and preparing for weeks before. It's a bit like theatre. There's lots to do before you actually perform the show.

Our school IS a place of love and understanding. Our parents and our principal understand why we have to do this and do not harbour any ill will towards us. The students aren't even affected during phase one. We hope BCPSEA will actually bargain with us and phase two never happens.

BCPSEA won't bargain with us. The basic business principal of negotiating is that both sides come to the table with their needs and then both parties give a little until you meet somewhere in the middle. BCPSEA is sitting back because it knows the government will step in. For more than a year, we have had no contract and they won't negotiate with us.

The BCTF just surveyed 15,000 teachers and almost 80% said they don't get the support they need in their classrooms. This labour action is more about student learning conditions than anything.

So, Finster, you obviously don't like unions at all. Not everyone can be a business owner - and business owners need labour. To protect themselves against unscrupulous owners, labour needed to organize. This organization has, over the years, been responsible for many of the improvements in people's quality of life. These benefits have been fought for and won at great cost, including life. Now, this seems elementary to me, but should we get rid of unions and allow government/owners to give labour what it deserves? Let's take a long look at how social/working conditions were before working people took a stand - we know there were no safety regulations, working days were too long, six day week was the norm, no age limit on who could work, no minimum wage, etc. ad nauseum. The improvements we have made as trade unionists everyone enjoys. These improvements we need to fight to keep, because they are being eroded. Already the Prov. Govt. has changed child labour laws, and we are starting to see the effect in our small community.
So Finster, do you think that trade unions are important? Do you think that education is an essential service? Do you think that teachers should be allowed free collective bargaining? If not, do you think that the government solely should determine working conditions and renumeration? Is government always to be trusted to do the right thing?
How would you structure a process for teachers and government to come to an amicable, mutually agreeable contract? I would love to see that process - an open transparent one. The one we have now is ridiculous - if the government bargaining agent cannot discuss financial matters, no wonder no agreements can be reached.
Are you really "gloomy", Finster? Instead of being a naysayer, please come up with positive comments/solutions. To call people names is an easy replacement for thinking.
I too went to school in Europe right after WW2 - and yes we had large classes, and were poor, but we were also streamed academically. The teaching methods were lecture only, and violence was used to control students. Many people did not even get a glimpse of their true potential, let alone learn several languages. Times have changed, thankfully. Yes, there are problems with the system, but gradually improvements are being made - and because most teachers did not get into teaching because of the $ but because of the joy of working with kids, those changes are coming from teachers. We have a regressive government now and they showed their true colours when they tried to nickle and dime seniors, stop books for the blind etc.
Finster, please share your solutions with us!

I worked every single day in September. I have not had a full day off since the school year started. I put in 2 or 3 10 hour days at the school each week. I work 4 hours each Fri,Sat & Sun at my second job. I also put in about 8 hours each weekend planning, preparing & gathering resouces & supplies.
Please stop saying that we had only 13 days in September. For most of us it is not accurate.
Finally, Finster you seem to think that I'm earning a large salary, that I am at the top of the food chain as you put it. I am earning about $33,000.

Virtually everyone spends at least 12 years in school. We all think we "know it all" because it was a huge part of our lives.

Very few of us would feel qualified to do the barium enema that a nurse has to do, even if we've seen it done once or twice in a hospital. We wouldn't think we could try a case in the Supreme Court or fix the power lines that have fallen out on the street, even though we may have seen in done on TV on on the street.

Twelve years of "public" education makes for a lot of "experts".

I would say our public education system is pretty secure if it stirs up this amount of debate, intelligent or otherwise.

I'm a teacher and we do have vouchers. It's called enrolling your child in French Immersion. That's what parents do when they want their children to experience school without a teacher crumbling with unrealistic loads of students with special needs and mammoth behaviour probems.

My step-daughters are from Russia and are appalled by the behaviour of many canadian children in classrooms. In Russia, they tell me, such children are put in schools for behaviour, not for academics. They have to earn the right to move onto the academics.

Is this the right approach? I don't know. I do know that the literacy rate of the general population in Russia is much higher than here.

Let's let students "fail" again and see what happens. Maybe a pilot in just a few schools. Let's see if those kids who are failed end up being able to read , rather than being "socially promoted".

Won't happen, but it would be interesting.

To those of you criticizing teachers because you say we get paid too much, get too much time off, and are whiners ... you could have been teachers too, you know. My university education wasn't handed to me. I had to pay for it and it took quite a few years of teaching to pay myself back so to speak. Come and do my job for a week and see if you still call us whiners. Just come and volunteer in a school. See for yourself what the REAL conditions are like in our schools. Don't rely on the Fiberals and the biased reporting on TV and in the newspapers. See the real truth. See the special needs students with insufficient spec. ed. teacher and teacher assistant time. See the students with behaviour problems who are without adequate supports because of lack of funding. See the tired teachers who have more students in their classrooms and are frustrated because more students are falling through the cracks. See the computer labs with students sitting 2 or 3 to a computer. There are enough computers but not all of them work because there isn't enough computer tech time. Or the students sharing math textbooks because the curriculum has been changed yet again therefore schools have to buy all new books. Or the students reading books paid for by teachers out of their own pockets.

But you know what else you will see? You will see laughter. You will see smiles. You will see children's faces lighting up when they can FINALLY read that book without stumbling over the words. You can see teachers bringing things from home to make their classrooms more cheerful. You can see children being fed with food bought by school funds even though the Ministry of Education doesn't fund that program anymore. You see teachers working harder and going the extra mile to compensate for what the Liberal govt. is doing to our education system.

And what are the Liberals doing? They are trying to emulate what the Ontario govt. did with their larger class sizes, cutting teachers' salaries, and demoralizing of teachers. But the Ont. govt. saw the error of their ways and things are improving there. Why emulate a failed system????? Give me 0-0-0 (even though I've been teaching long enough that my salary is maxed out and the only raise I get is through contract). But if I don't get a raise, let me do my job effectively. Give our students the conditions that teachers fought to get them in 2001. I gave up a raise to get smaller class sizes and supports for special needs students before. I'm willing to do it again. Am I still a whiner?????????

Finster:

I was the writer who included your description of yourself "dim, dark" in a response, and also mentioned that you say you are a "parent". These are facts volunteered by you, and are not "ad hominem" unless the fallacy is of your own creation. I am reponsible for those words, NOT teachers or their profession. You start from the position "I don't like teachers" which is "sad" (your choice of name, not mine). The "scarcity mentality" approach is also not a sign of happiness,but of deep resentment. Because someone at some time did not, or does not, have human rights, is no reason for teachers to lose theirs.

A "plant" is someone deliberately put in place by an opposing organization to cause trouble. For example, a "plant" in a peaceful, legal, protest might be put there to incite violence and discredit the protesters. The type of name a "plant" might select is one meaning opposite or troublemaker, such as "nemesis", defined as a "source of harm, or ruin" or "Finster", darkness, the opposite of light, and by association also the lamp of learning, the symbol of the BCTF. A "plant" will further a movement or opinion, but will frequently have no research or factual knowledge to support that stance. So, you can see why some might think that you enter debate with a preset agenda.

TIME and WORK

Also, hours and days are measures of time, not of output or energy levels, so there are no comparisons available as to who works harder by simply comparing hours or days. It doesn't matter how long someone works!! The question is "What is the product worth to society?" and you wish to deny the teaching profession the legal right to have that determined.

If you don't like YOUR income, put up your price and see if people will pay it, but remember that public sector workers also have that right. If a police officer works 4 days on and 4 days off - quite common, you would claim that he/she only works 50% of the year and therefore deserves half pay! This is the same idiotic logic that is being put forward here for teachers. If you don't like the RCMP, why don't you start in on them ... they only sit in cars all day ... it's so easy!

Hi Ruby,
I have replied in the same simplistic and sometimes angry vein as posts by your colleagues. In this way they know what they (themselves) sound like to the rest of us. Woe-is-me, I don't earn enough, life is hard, I work too many hours etc., etc.

The interesting thing is that not one of you seemed to have any sympathy for others' problems.

I also used a personal attack to illustrate the use of the ad hominem nature of many of the posts. And of course I got 'one' back. Quite funny really.

Lots of cloak-and-dagger stuff but no one wants to douse (or dowse) the flames, or even try to understand the others' views. That in itself indicates just how badly the system has stumbled. As educators you are the very people who should be devoted to the increasing of communications.

Instead you seem more concerned with obstruction.

My view is that too much influence by any one group (in this case the BCTF) can destroy the very spirit and purpose of public education. We have seen this before - Spain, Italy and Germany are of course extreme examples. But don't forget one of you questioned my politics - does the BCTF have control over a teacher's personal thoughts?

On the question of government and education it might be a good idea to consider a citation of Pluto's:

Good public education can exist only in a good state; and a good state can be maintained only by good education.
We may have ourselves to blame?

One last message for children - all of them:

Facere potestatem discendi.

alpine days,
Just read your post.Thanks. I will reply a bit later.

The BCTF doesn't tell any teacher how to think. Anyone who's been in BC schools can just use their common sense to see that smaller class sizes and more supports for special needs students makes sense. Period.

As a teacher, I made a conscious decision to choose a job I loved over making a lot of money. I don't condemn anyone else who chose their profession under different circumstances. If you envy teachers their time off then go back to university and get your degree. There should be lots of openings. Not many people willing to go into teaching these days. If you aren't willing to do that, then stop whining about how many days I have off in a year. Believe me, I need them and I earn them. As someone said, a pulp mill workers job can be dangerous therefore their high wages. Hmmmm. I was kicked in the stomach by a student having a seizure and had to be rushed to hospital with a ruptured tumor. I have been spit at. I have changed poopy pants. I have been called a lot of not so polite names by students and even parents. I have spent my own money feeding the children of these same parents. And since the Liberal government came into power I have, unfortunately, become used to being told how lazy and greedy I am everytime I turn on the news. And still I, along with almost every single teacher in BC, am willing to do whatever it takes return to education system of BC to the way it was and should be ... for the sake of the students. So any of you want the time off then come on. There will be a shortage of teachers soon enough. Let's see if you can put your money where your mouth is. You have to really love the job though or you won't be able to handle the working conditions. It's ok though. There are a lot of experienced teachers out there who will help beginning teachers out on top of the rest of their already heavy workload.

Great thread! If you like to listen to whining teachers.

Hey spedteacher, I offered you an olive branch and you still get on ya high-horse.
Now really!

Sorry Pluto was a typo - I meant Plato!

alpine days made the same "typo" - the other way around - ad nauseum instead of ad nauseam.
But I mustn't carry on!

spedteacher, I couldn't be bothered reading all of your, somewhat rambling, post - maybe I'll find time tomorrow. You asked me about the Finnish system - yes done a lot of research, though several years ago. What are your thoughts on say the Froebellian kindergarten and the influence played by his (Froebel's) mentor who now rest at Yverdon.
Also what about my last line concerning children a couple of posts ago? Do you agree with the Roman ideals concerning children's public education?
And in regards to the BCTF not influencing the spirit of free thought and expression - I must most strongly disagree.

Oh dear! I missed an 's' in rests.
.........who now rests at Yverdon.
Forgive me.

alpinedays,
Why haven't you figured out my name yet? Thanks for your view on unions - I'm with you and have spent many weeks on strike - a long time ago.

This is why my 'weltanschauuing" is somewhat different to most on the list. I really do know something about poor working conditions, poor wages, and long hours. Ruby, with all due respect, lives in a different and much more pleasant world. Due, in part, to those of us who were on strike and suffered - really suffered - because of it.

As I've said before the BCTF has nothing - absolutely nothing in common with those unions I worked for. Unions in BC promote high salaries for a privileged group in society. And, alpinedays, it is probable that the high wages and marvelous benefits in the public sector (I know about this as I sleep with a public servant) actually help to keep wages down in other sectors.
What do you think? And how could this be?
You claim that we have a regressive government. That may be true - but as (teachers' union are) shareholders in so many capitalist enterprises in this province surely that benefits the teaching profession in general. Moreover, teachers' pension plans are notorious for their unethical investments as well as of downsizing of plants causing lay-offs and lower wages - thus doing considerable damage to the envrionment as well as the social fabric of our province and indeed our nation.
What do you think alpinedays?

Luceo,
Thanks for your longwinded explanations. The plant stuff was a real treat.
And have you ever tried raising the price of a product - especially when ya customer is a teacher?
Just kidding!

Finster is a plant.

Luceo - again,

Irish salaries are higher than ours. Not exactly rocket science eh!
Their living cost are triple.

Top o' the mornin' to ya!

Thankya for those kind words Scylla,
Now what kinda plant might I be?
A tryfid or a Shamrock - oops I mean shamrock.
Gotta love you guys.

The fact remains that this is BC. I don't think teachers or any other union member should apologize for the working conditions we all work towards. They are relevant to BC because that's where we live. This is not Poland after all. The UN has ruled against the Liberals use of the essential service designation on education. It's a violation of teachers' basic human rights. We deserve a negotiated contract just as much as any other working person in BC. As we've done in the past, some of us teachers are willing to give up a raise to improve learning and working conditions. Anyone who thinks otherwise has not sat in a staffroom in recent weeks and listened to teachers talking. I'm sorry your past was so hard, Finster, but I'm not going to apologize for wanting better working and learning conditions in BC schools.

As far as answering questions about different kindergarten programs, etc., sorry .. I only have time to attempt to keep up with the research directly related to my field. I might have some free time in the next few weeks and I'll be sure to catch up on my reading.

Oops - I've been kissing that old blarney stone again.

Their living costS are higher than ours.

You know - in Dublin and Belfast, not forgettin' dear old Killarney.
Now where's me Whiskey?

to spedteacher,

This is basic historical knowledge - straighforward stuff about your own profession. Kinda like the times- tables and a bit of Latin and Greek. How am I, a layman, suposed to read and understand about Finnish systems when you refuse to debate the development of the departure from the rigid ecclesiastical form to progressive experimental develoment in Switzerland and Germany?
Quite frankly I believe that the problems with the thought processes that influence today's public education system have sprung, almost directly, from the illogicality of that old socialist - Rousseau!
What is your opinion?

Hey Finster,
Well, after googling your name, all I have come up with is "pitch dark" ( a few Austrian mountains have that moniker), a Power rangers character, and a person who posts on white supremacy sites!
So, enlighten me............

I agree that some pension plan investments are counterproductive in some ways - but it is absolutely impossible to be squeaky clean, and you'd drive yourself crazy trying. It seems you may be culpable in feeding at the public trough - sleeping with a public servant???
Let's not get off track intellectualizing about the philosophy of education. That's a great subject but not relevant to this thread.
Remember that the past is past - because many of our experiences were with poverty doesn't mean that people should not expect working conditions/salary commensurate with their education and experience. What is your opinion of upper management contracts. The prov. govt. has certainly hired a lot of incredibly high paid help, who stay a little while and then get great severance packages.
You really didn't answer my questions -which is unfortunate because I was looking forward to your solutions.
And pointing out typos is a waste of time - ideas count here.
Gotta dash - school is waiting.

Just a bit of information to help the discussion: recent (2003) surveys by the BCTF show that teachers' work an average of 55 hours per week, or 2200 hours per year. That's for an experienced teacher-- beginning teachers average closer to 70, which may explain why 50% of new teachers quit the profession within five years. This, by the way, is before staff and department meetings, or meetings with parents, or time volunteered to coach teams or clubs. The total time for other professions? Forty hours per week for 49 weeks a year, figuring three weeks of holiday. Do the math. It works out to around 1960 hours per year, or about 6 weeks less than teachers. Of course, many people work overtime, and actually put in more hours-- but they're paid for that time. Teachers aren't.
Another interesting fact-- it can take teachers 10 years to finally achieve their full pay as they move up the salary grid. Because of this delay in receiving a full salary, teachers actually subsidize the system with wages lower than much of the population for the first four or five years of their careers. All of this while attempting to pay back student loans. Other professionals are paid a full wage immediately upon getting a job.The average wage for teachers has risen for the last few years due mainly to the aging population. If we had had the foresight to have hired younger teachers, the average pay would be lower, and so would class sizes. Of course the total cost would be higher, as there would be more teachers in the system. But the increase in costs would not be that great, as we would be hiring people at the bottom of the salary scale.
Last, it's interesting to note how the rhetoric of the anti-teacher crowd resembles the rantings of people like Bill O'Rielly or Ann Coulter from right wing groups in the states. These people confuse facts and reasoning with opinions expressed in an ad hominem manner-- O'Rielly regularly tells guests to "shut up" when he has no other response. Sad to see that kind of mindless blather becoming the staple of some debates here in Canada.
And just for the record: no, I'm not a teacher, but a literacy researcher from Simon Fraser.

Unfortunately the teachers in this province are very ill served by the BCTF. Rather than acting as a professional union that fights for its members rights regardless of who is in power, it has degenerated into little more than a wing of the BC NDP.

Thus even when its claims are legitimate, they are treated with scepticism and scorn by those in the media and in the public who are not members of the NDP.

If the BCTF want a working relationship with government they have to start conducting themselves in a professional rather than partisan manner.

I'm going to have to change my log in handle. FREE BC is anything but what we've got with snivelers like the BCTF in charge.
I don't know if there is a more collective bunch of whiners than teachers.
With salaries as high as they already get, and scolastic standards as low as they are, they are never satisfied.
Most of the teachers in BC not only use poor grammer, most of them have no idea how to spell.
They influence the subjects taught in class, yet our children haven't any grasp of reality when they graduate... if they graduate.
The bulk of kids going on to university need to be taught how to take notes and study. A thing they are supposed to learn in school.
And, teachers are on an annualized salary. meaning their salary is based on 12 months. When I was a kid, my parents weren't burdened with retarded pro-d days, where teachers don't really develope. No, my teachers spent their summers in university... actually devloping their skills as educators. That certainly isn't what's happening now.
I hope Campbell does something good for a change and tell the whiners "NO!!!". Maybe even outlaw the BCTF as a subversive organization.
Unions have their place. Not in a classroom full of kids. If the teachers in public schools think they are hard done by, perhaps they should try their hands at private schools, where teachers are paid far less, don't have the conditions the BCTF has won, and where teachers actually care about the welfare of their charges.
If you are a teacher and I have offended you... oh well.

By the way rjay... why don't you tell us what the base salary for a public teacher is?????
Don't get paid overtime??? Get a grip!

rjay is right. Teachers get paid their annual salary over 10 months. In my school district, we can choose a payment plan so that a bit is taken of our cheques each month so that we still get paid over the summer. The school district considers our work day to be 6 hrs. (I think). I, only with many other teachers, put in way more hours than that in a day yet there is no overtime pay. If you are going to compare a teacher's salary to that of other workers in BC, please do so when comparing other professions that require a bachelor's degree. At least you wouldn't be comparing apples to oranges then. Approx. 99% of the pulp mill workers that I know have their Gr. 12 diploma (if that), they get waaaaaaaaaay more time off than a teacher, and the difference between my salary and that of a pulp mill worker would pay for a first year teacher.

An 88.4% strike mandate speaks for itself. Individual teachers cast those votes .. not the BCTF Executive.

The points made about the achievement rates of BC high school graduates are good ones but they should be directed at the provincial government, not teachers or the BCTF. We do not decide what is to be taught nor did we choose to waste so much class time on the government's standardized tests. It wasn't even our idea to cram so many students in a high school class that they have to share desks and get substantially less time from their teacher either.

To the poster whose father was not an active member of the BCTF .. I am very happy for him that he is retired. He is lucky that he doesn't have to teach under these conditions and watch his students suffer as a result. I envy him.

Andddd at the AGMs that I have been to the "right wingers" as it was put above were held in check. If they'd had their way, teachers would have been on strike last year or earlier this school year.

And freebc .. not that it's really important in the big picture, but I've noticed a lack of grammatical, spelling and typing errors in those posts written by teachers as well as many others :o)

Shall we dispense with the nice nice stuff and get to the base salary please? A real number, not more wordy platitudes of how hard done by you are.
I am of the opinion that teachers may from time to time actually do some things to earn some of their money.
BUT! There is no arguing the fact that like truck drivers and others who are responsable for their actions on the job, teachers are to have the care and sole responsability of the education of the kids in their charge. They knew the job entering in, and they weren't forced to sign a work agreement against their will.
So, how much does a new teacher get paid? And how much is the top paid teacher getting after paying their dues in time invested?

To rjay,
You must be using fuzzy math. I know lots of teachers, including close relatives. None work 55 hours (per week)throughout the year and not one works 2200 hrs., yearly. In fact I know of at least one teacher who does only the necessary 950 hours and there are probably many more.
However, I do know a lot of my colleagues in business who worked more than 3000 hours per year. I'm sure you do too?

Isn't it funny how these poor hard done by teachers, who are so peed off because they didn't get a raise. Well sweetheart, welcome to the real world!!!
Why don't we all check in if your boss gave you a raise anytime in the last few years.
Any why are you so afraid to tell the public how much you are getting right now?
Maybe teachers are getting paid too much for what they are giving out to the kids.

I was going to comment on the teachers that you know who can get by without doing any extra time Finster but then I realized it would be unethical. Just remember that it's teachers who "just get by" that give all the rest of the hardworking teachers a bad name. And sorry, but your friends and relatives are in the minority.

Freebc, I would imagine I'm the "sweetheart" you are referring to? My Dad told me that it was extremely rude to ask anyone how much they earn. If you are so curious about how much teachers make, check it out for yourself. Watch the news. Learn some real facts. Even Global TV is accurate when they compare the salaries of Ont. and Alberta teachers to that of BC teachers. And if you do search the web for information on teachers' salaries thank a teacher for teaching you how to read!!!!! And remember, it's my job to encourage lifelong learning. I'm just trying to make sure you keep up your end of the bargain lol. So you want to know how much I make .. work for it.

When you say "your boss" are you referring to the Liberal government? Yeah, they gave me a bit of a raise a few years ago. The first one I'd seen in years too. But oh yeahhhh!!! They forgot to fund it so it came out of other areas of the budget!!! If you heard the news about the legislation today you would know that the government has legislated no raise for the next few years nor any improvements to working and learning conditions. All of this at a time when our government has a budget surplus yet found the money to give school adminstrators AND MLAs a raise. Go figure.

It's no secret, freebc. The BCTF published a report in 2003 stating that the average salary of a BC teacher was $60,581. This info is available on the website, bctf.ca.

I believe beginning teachers (who aren't on teachers on call) start in the low-to-mid 30's. Many TOCs make much, much less.

Now that you have this information, pray continue with your anti-teacher rhetoric.

And you say the teachers are the whiners? Seems to be an awful lot of whining on your posts.

freebc

I think salaries were posted a while ago, but I will give some numbers from my district in rural B.C.
A first year teacher, after five years of university, (and I don't know how much student loans) will get $42, 182. After 10 years that teacher with 5 years university will receive $65202. The highest paid teacher in our district with a Masters degree and 6 years university with 10 years experience will receive $71 538. I think there is a web site that has all the district contracts but I don't know what it is. If you want to compare to Alberta teachers go to

http://www.teachers.ab.ca/Salary+and+Benefit/Collective+Bargaining/Collective+Agreements/

Having said all of the above, I think it is important to understand that many teachers are not fighting mad over our lack of salary increase. Many of us are more ticked off because the government has taken away some basic rights to bargain a contract, as well as ripping previous contracts apart which contained important conditons for learning in our schools.

This is getting good. Now comrade Jinny will tell her members to break the law, for the students sake, of course. Can't wait to see how many lemmings will follow.

HELLO THERE ALPINEDAYS

Just lost my post to you and will retrieve tomorrow.
Just thought I'd mention though - my sharing a bed with a public servant was meant as a humorous antidote.
However, regarding your somewhat meanspirited comment about us feeding at the public trough. My wife is university educated, tri-lingual, works 1000 hours a year. No paid stat. holidays, no paid holidays, none of the benefits normal for teachers such as sickness etc. Annual take home pay $12,500. But more than she would make in the private sector.

"Why don't we all check in if your boss gave you a raise anytime in the last few years."

Yep. a couple of percent. Full medical coverage, too. A few other goodies that are industry-specific.

Pays to be in a union. The company is not about to go belly up because of it either, just to pre-counter that sob story.

Maybe you just suck at your job freebc, and don't deserve a raise?

Actually, I work at a non-union site and get paid pretty decent money for being away from home lots. I get roughly $50,000 a year to do hard work and train others too.
I'm glad someone finall bellied up to say how much they get paid.
But then the tachers go on to say 'but it's not about money.'
Give us a break. If it's not about money but rather you legal/illegal right to disrupt the lives and learning of the kids you care about, then you need to go check your values again to see if you little moral compass is off a wee bit.
If teaching is so tough, QUIT! go drive a truck like I am. Good money and conditions...except you won't get to see your kids, grandchildren, wife/girlfriend/boyfriend/husband (did I miss any significants?) very often. You won't get to do social stuff either. No bowling, slow pitch, sit in the pub and shoot the bull...
QUIT YOUR SNIVELING... GET YOUR BUTT BACK IN THE CLASS OR QUIT!!!
Nobody can force you to work. If things are that bad, you better quit and go flip burgers at McD's where you can still teach kids. Teach them that hard work that cost you something in the beginning, has rewards and dividends in the long term.
Many men and women in this province struggle to get something more than the bare necessities for their families for years before they see even a light at the end of the tunnel.
You have invested in yourself by going through the hoops of becoming a teacher. All that because you looked at things like wages and conditions BEFORE you went to school the first day to become a teacher.
The nurse that takes care of folks in hospitals and extended care units went to school for as long as you did, and they don't get paid a heck of a lot more than you for being away from their families as much as they are.
When you fail to do your job a child suffers, possibly for a life time. If a nurse fails at his/her job, someone dies and a family loses more than you will likely ever know.
You are far more important in your collective minds than you are worth.
If it ain't good enough for you, QUIT. please.
Don't make me send my grandson to you to be educated.

According to e-mails and letters read on air on CKNW, et al (what with CBC on strike), it seems the only thing parents care about is the baby-sitting service provided by the school system. More parents are horrified that their little tykes will be without supervision, as the parents go to work.

Also, whenever public sector strikes make the news, I cannot help but think back to Gordo's act of raising senior civil servants wages by some 36% when he became premier............

Personally, I became a special education teacher because of a childhood friend who was mentally challenged. The holidays were never a consideration. An uncle who was teaching at the time kept trying to convince me to change my major because "you'll never get rich being a teacher, you know!" I resent the fact that the media and some small-minded people think that I'm in it for all the so-called "perks".

My son would beg to differ about teachers not putting in long hours. He gets tired of hanging around the school every day waiting for me to finish with my meetings or any other work. He gets tired of me having to do schoolwork every night. He was even hoping that Phase #1 of job action (work to rule) would mean no schoolwork coming home! He gets tired of having to go to the school some weekends so Mommy can get some work done. My son said he wants us to go out on strike because then he'd have more time with me. Yeahhhh those darn teachers have it pretty easy ... just ask my son or the families of other hard-working teachers.

Sped; Looks like you'v got every line in the book.

freebc started with:
"When you fail to do your job a child suffers, possibly for a life time."

and continues to say:
You are far more important in your collective minds than you are worth.

Contradictory? No, I mean Yes!

You complain teachers are whinging, but the truckers sure didn't mind inconveniencing a whole lot of people when they couldn't get their fuel surcharge didn't they? Any idiot with half a brain could see gas prices are on the rise, but do you all negotiate a flexible pricing schedule that takes it into account? No! You cry the blues when the cost of business goes up. Cry me a river, nobody held a gun to your head and made you drive truck. If you can't compete, get out of the business instead of holding the ports hostage! How do you like them free market apples?

You're contradicting yourself, applying a double standard, and frankly not making much sense.

Luceo, I appreciate the explanation of how the pension plan works.

Rjay, you refer to all other professionals as working 40 hour weeks, or getting paid a "full salary" right out of university, but that is unheard of.Â* Lawyers article.Â* Doctors slave as residents.Â* We all have some form of apprenticeship where we work hard to become experts in our field.Â*

I think there is some confusion as to what "professional" means.Â* Teachers are definitely professionals, and deserve to be treated as such.Â* Most of what the teachers are fighting for boils down to being treated as professionals.Â* But you can't have it both ways.Â* You can't demand to be treated as professionals and then hide behind a Dickensian union that uses principles from the Industrial Revolution intended to defend un-educated, parity workers.Â* Professionals are not paid overtime ANYWHERE.Â* And I cannot think of one other profession where compensation is completely un-related to competence.Â* A bad teacher, even with years of documented incompetence, can not be fired.Â* That is not professional.Â* Even the teachers on this forum seem to be confused, comparing their salaries with non-professionals like mill workers, and their overtime.Â*

The BCTF is holding its own teachers back.Â* Yes, many young teachers leave the profession in the first five years.Â* Not one of my friends who graduated from education is still teaching in public schools.Â* But they didn't leave because they didn't like the job.Â* They just were too bright and ambitious to work so hard on their lesson plans, report cards, the yearbook, coaching, counselling etc. for half as much money as the old bat down the hall who hated kids but had seniority.Â* Principles like seniority, and protecting the weak and incompetent, are not found in other professional careers.

On the other hand (stay with me here if you can.Â* In this time of punditry we're not used to reading opinions that are not one-sided blame rants) I understand why the teachers' union needs to be strong.Â* As government employees, teachers are subject to the whim of each new government, and as one teacher here wrote, each new education minister who wants to put his or her mark on the education system.Â* This too has too stop.Â*

Teachers want to work in a strong education system.Â* The government needs educated workers.Â* They're not as far apart as they think.Â* If we can find a place of reconciliation with First Nations as has been happening, we can with education.

Teachers must free themselves from a history of victimhood represented by the current union model, and step into their role as true professionals.Â* The Government must show transparency in its dealings, as it has with the First Nations, to gain the teachers' trust.Â* And a new framework for negotiation must be put in place that provides stability regardless of changing governments.Â*

There has been much Liberal-slamming here, but the fact is that the NDP also legislated teachers back to work.Â* In fact, no agreement has been successfully negotiated in 15 years.Â*
There has been some comparison on this thread to Alberta, but the fact is that what I have described more closely resembles the Alberta model.Â* Alberta has more of a pioneer spirit, every person for his/herself mentality. There is not the strong union history that there is in British Columbia, and the teachers and government do not have the same union/management antagonistic relationship.Â*

I have no idea where those question marks came from.

I am hearing that many writers and teachers are supporting teacher pay raises because the government is running at a surplus. Isn't that thinking a little divorced from reality?
The 'shoot themselves in the foot' statement by BCTF union lawyer Diane MacDonald would turn off the public's sympathy for wage increases. Although it was made a few years ago and Diane was slapped on the wrist.
That statement is, as follows....
"We have had job actions in the past that have been up to three-months' duration without significant impact on the student body".

I may be wrong but wasn't it decided a while ago by the BCTF to include children with learning disabilities in ordinary classrooms?
I agree with smaller class size but the teachers must be aware of what the other provinces working conditions are and what they are paying - and apparently BC isn't exactly suffering by comparison.

The BCTF may claim that their grievances aren't dollar related but who is it trying to kid?