Hunter; try KVI 570 AM out of Seattle, they have good investigative hosts. They are strengthening their signal so we will be able to hear them more clearly very soon. Available, sometimes, over the internet.

CKNW still a strong station?

The production values alone... drum machine loops and sixties freedom ballads between hyperbolic sound bites have me wondering if CKNW exclusively hires BCIT first year interns? Or perhaps that's an unfair snipe at BCIT interns.

And am I alone in having trouble distinguishing between their paid ads and so-called news programs?

Here's a rough transcription of what I heard on the CKNW morning program a week ago...

Host: "That's _______, host of our afternoon program"

Traffic reporter: "She's so pretty"

Host: "Yes, but that't not her real hair. If you watch closely, you'll see that it's fake."

Newsman: "Is that the only thing on her that's fake?"

Hyuk, hyuk, hyuks all around.

If this is the best we're going to get during the CBC lockout maybe better to snap the dial off altogether. Might I recommend CKUA.org for a sublime selection of excellent tunes? Yes, they're Alberta based but don't hold that against them. A little light on the news though, sadly.

You're absolutely right, Rafe, there's little room for hard-hitting news & muckraking
in today's corporate MSM, all bent out of shape to stay on the good sides of business and governments. But this sad trend doesn't mean there isn't a need, and where there is need, innovative people will find ways to fill it.

The Web is increasingly filling the void and stealing audience/readership away from the MSM. Interesting developments include the rise of The Tyee, blogs like Holman's Public Eye, and the cutting-edge innovation of "citizen journalism" at South Korea's successful online "OhMy News". Check out "About Us" at http://english.ohmynews.com/

ronny why would a Canadian want to listen to american station, a fox station no less, don't we get enough right wing propaganda from canwest!!!

Ursus; only to broaden my horizons, you should try it.

Ron: I remember talking to a cab driver in Seattle who told me a station there (Probably that one) talks to Vaughn Palmer (I think, I was hammered at the time) on a weekly basis. The fact that a station in Seattle takes notice of our affairs to that extent and we don't do anything similiar is a good indication of the laziness here.

CKNW is crap now. The afternoon comes outta the prairies and I hear their news network is shutting down sometime next month. It's a garbage station... perfect chance for someone with vision to open a new talk radio station.

Peignoir!

"The production values alone... drum machine loops and sixties freedom ballads between hyperbolic sound bites have me wondering if CKNW exclusively hires BCIT first year interns?"

Yes, that is their policy. They have an exclusive internship deal with BCIT. Which I'm sure explains their crappy journalism. BCIT teaches you how to use the equipment, get a soundbite...it appears that's it.

The news industry for the most part is crap, regardless of who is presenting it!

No in-depth reporting, no setting of context, repeating news stories, choosing what is news, too much focus on personalities, scripted supposed good natured humour, not enough "local" news, news ticker news that never actually gets reported on, etc.

Yes thanksfully there is some more depth on the internet but you have to watch that what is reported is actual fact, though I sometimes wonder about facts on traditional broadcasts (tv & radio). I recall when the port truck drivers were on strike/locked out/refusing to work or whatever that news channels had the economic cost pegged at $35 million a week, $70 million a week, $70 million a day .....

So which was it?

In my opinion, some people say that they do not watch the news, listen to the radio or read the paper because the news is too depressing (saddens me that people seem to prefer an illusion of golly gee things are nice!!). For me I have limited watching/listening to the news because the news (content) is not comprehensive, little context, too much concern about presentation (the set or newsdesk for example) and so on. News as entertainment or infotainment is what we have now.

Back to Rafe's article-how many "hard-nosed" reporters, or news programs are left? The news seems to be more propaganda (from any side) and tries to influence the viewer rather than just inform the viewer and let them form their opinion from the "facts"

Thanks, Jamez. That would explain a lot.

By the way, I listened to the local Fox radio station while visiting Seattle recently and not only did I get to listen to the man himself, Bill O'Reilly, but O'Reilly was actually voicing most of the ads (air conditioners and hair oil or something).

It makes me think of the little guy behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz -- a bit of an embarrassment and nothing close to the menace we all believe him to be.

Golly, maybe Ron Erwin is Bill O'Reilly (or, at least one of his locally-based misanthropic minions -- I hear he actually has some).

I can remember phoning in a news tip to CKNW exposing the "secret sale" of St. Mary's Hospital. I recieved a follow up call from a reporter wanting to know where I got my information from. I asked him if he was going to do the story. His reply was that the CEO of the hospital was going to make a public announcement in a couple of days. So why does CKNW insist that they are the top news group in the city when they obviously avoid hard hitting stories?

ronny I don't need to broaden my horizons by listening to a radio staion specializing in right wing fanatics get enough of that from you.

"So why does CKNW insist that they are the top news group in the city when they obviously avoid hard hitting stories?"

Well, what are you gonna do?
Have your ads say "CKNW news, Vancouver's third rate newscast!"

The reason for the death of hard hitting, investigative journalism is that now we live under the collectivist depression of a forced on neoclassical market economy, which doesn't tolerate dissent, as it interferes with the insatiable profit takings of its owners and controllers.

I remember the times when the Sun wouldn't publish sports stories that included the names of corporations and sponsors. Now they don't publish any that don't. Ed Deak, Big Lake.

I agree with Ed from Big Lake. Its all about the corporations and what works for them, and to H. E. double hockey sticks to everything else!

Amen, Rafe

As a long time CKNW listener I am now ungluing my radio tuners and finding other stations. Do I ever miss 'Big' Al Davidson, Jack Cullen, Jack Webster, etc. Aside from Bill Good, most of their programming seems to be controlled out of Toronto. There's so little local flavor left.

I believe that was Lionel Barrymore behind the curtain in Emerald City. As you will remember the gang that travelled there searching for the things missing in their lives.... The Lion searching for courage, the Tinman wanted a heart, Dorithy a way home and Ron Erwin/the scarecrow is still searching for a brain.

I still get a kick out of Berner, and Smythe can still ask a question or two. The rest of the programing is often sensationalist hype and, corporate blowjobs, as Rafe once called it.

Did I hear someone mention Bill Good? isn't he the guy who turned "fast ferries into a trite cliche?

Bill goode is so damned boring. I do like Michael Smythe though, I enjoy his column too.

A good indication of how we are served (more often ill-served) is a newspaper's "letters" page.

Frequently, topics referred to in previous issues get no reader comment, even when the editor has asked "What do you think?" on a particular topic. This is NOT always because letters were not written.

Two examples are, the lack of reader response to the story of the "London" memo (challenging the legality of US/UK action against Iraq) and absent comment on seizing at the Mexico/US border of computers and parts (assembled by Pastors for Peace, and volunteers) bound for Cuban special needs students. That story was followed by , "What do you think?"

More examples will follow of how consumers are really ill-served by the media.

NW, or more commonly know as Brand-X, is now a garbage station, where 'paid-for' advert shows are now the norm. How can anyone respect a radio station that shills for questionable medical cures.

Bill Good - Mr. politcally correct, never can take a stand on anything. A real Casper Milktoast.

David Berner - an acting 'legend in his own mind', silly and rude.

Peter Warren - arrogant, ignorant, crude, and rude.

Adler (who ever he is?) - dim.

Smythe - a know it all that knows nothing.

Phillip Till - the only class act in a floundering station, wasted in the morning.

The Premier's brother, what's his name - tiresome, repeditive, shrill. Never complains about the waste and/or missmanagement of the BC Liberals. Now, can not be believed.

The rest - timid, unschooled, mostly a waste of time.

Now you know why I don't listen to NW anymore.

Grumpy I mostly agree with you, except on Smythe. I wouldn't say he knows nothing - I find alot of his stuff in his column to be rather interesting.

I sometimes wish we had an NW up here in the boonies to ignore, but alas we don't.

Instead we have a handful of radio stations catering to the provincial Liberal government, that seem to play either "golden oldies" (and god I feel sorry for anyone younger than 45 who has to suffer through yet another "blast from the past"), heavy metal or over-inflated DJ egos that don't know when to stop blathering.
Oh yes, there was CBC out of Kelowna until the lockout (that's lockout for you young reporters who have rounded the edges on that issue and now call it a strike.)

But CBC regional in recent years has fallen further and further from the old ideals of accuracy and balance.

An example was last years story about the "wild boys" in the Okanagan. CBC radio, not to be outdone by the commercial guys in the region, ran that story as though it was a second coming complete with extensive quotes from the two "wild" young men.

Unfortunately, none of the reporters who got near those young guys thought to ask any pertinant questions, apparently because the bullshit they were feeding the press tasted pretty good, that is until a national reporter with CBC TV spent an afternoon with the lads and had debunked the silly fraud for what it was quickly.

I still think I'm owed an apology for having to listening to that story by the local media over and over for close to a year before a reporter actually investigated.

Eddy Haskel, your comments about the St. Mary's hospital is a classic case, I think, of subtle intimidation by management to avoid controversy and its impact on a lazy journalist.

Easier to rewrite a local press release than to expose your bosses pals.

But I think the fact he called you back, suggests he knew he ought to look into that story a little further.

However, I have to question why the reporter would call the health board before talking to you to confirm or expand on what you had told others. Until he understands your point there is no story to take to the health officials.

But it's an easy way to blow off a story you don't want to do. Sad, sad.

I'm not too sure if I should thank Rafe. While this article is getting lots of hits, one must remember it is the dying days of the dog month and there really isn't much meat out there to digest so the old days look even better for many of us..

The point about the letter to the editor:

Funny how even poiticians use that section to voice their platform or defend their decisions(as if they do not get any other opportunities!).

Notice how the paper (Sun) also includes pictures of the authors of some letters to the editor -why? Why not leave room for actual reader's comments!

Frankly I think the idea is to kill real dialogue amongst citizens. Note how most often "we" are referred to a consumers and not citizens!
I like the idea of posting the newspaper publicly on a large bulleting board so peole can read it for free and likley strike up a dialogue with other citizens reading also.

Of course that reduces the profit and market of the corporate newspapers. I would bet if you tried such a display the paper would try to sue!

"Oh yes, there was CBC out of Kelowna until the lockout (that's lockout for you young reporters who have rounded the edges on that issue and now call it a strike.)"

Sadly, it ain't just young reporters. I actually saw an article the other day worded something like this;

"The Terry Fox marathon will not be held because of locked out CBC workers."

Not "Because CBC workers are locked out" mind you, but "Because of locked out CBC workers"

I was going to phone and yell at someone...but didn't.

Oops! "I meant the Terry Fox Marathon will not be broadcast"

Jamez, that's why they call me Grumpy.

NW, the former Top Dog 98, is now just a stray dog, ready to be put down. Hey, AM 600 from 8:30 to 10:30, then AM 650, lets forget about "paid for" talk radio and start readin the news papers again. The provides an unlimited supply. Try it!

One of my pet peeves is infomercials are taking over more and more. It used to be in the wee hours NW would repeat shows from the prior day. Now if I have insomnia and my dial happens to stray to NW, I'm likely to get a tout for some overpriced health supplement of dubious efficacy.

In a way, CFUN is worse, in that they have elevated one infomercial to prime time. It gets played 3 times each weekend, mornings and afternoons. Worse, it kind of masquerades as a "personal finance" show, when it's just an ad for one particular financial advisor who gets "interviewed" each time by a CFUN personality.
You learn virtually nothing about managing finances. The only thing you're intended to learn is that you really need this particular woman to manage your money for you! Funny, they never mention how she charges, leaving me doubting that she charges the only fair way: an hourly rate.
I'm fearin' she likely charges a hefty % instead, to separate you from as much of your money as possible.

Now,I'm not a fan of either Campbell brother, but, in comparison, at least 'NW still broadcasts honest to God financial programs, with real guests that actually pass along useful knowledge now and then, and are not infomercials masquerading as
informative programming! One glaring ommission though (is this the Campbell touch?)is that corporate ethics, or lack thereof is off their radar. Here 'NW pales next to ROBTV which makes an effort to present views of business reformers such as forensic accountant Al Rosen,
who heads an organization campaigning for greater oversight and rules/laws enforcement
when it comes to Cdn. corporate "creative" accounting. He sees a lot of cooked books and he says our system allows most of them to be buried. Only the grossest of violations draw serious attention from regulators.NW's biz shows never touch corporate shenanigans. Shame.

All bark and no bite, the article says. Oh yes, there is bite, but the wrong ones are being bitten.

Three industries in particular "own" the media - the auto, real estate and gambling.

Can anyone honestly claim that the consumer is served by the media in matters relating to these industries?

My son was just quoted $1,000 to remove, clean and replace an intake manifold plus a $100 for oil change and filter on a small diesel car. Justified or not, would a complaint regarding this attempted gouging (to me) appear in the letters page of any daily?

Any letters regarding car problems are rare to non-existent on the letters page. The odd complaint may be handled "safely" by the paper's "safe" auto writers one or two days per week. But note, thoughout the week, how much of that paper is given over to the automobile.

I quoted a French newspaper yesterday that referred to a "scandalously speculative housing market". Is not such a situation assured by a complicit or willfully blind media. For all the outrage at commissions, fees and taxes, we see few letters.

On gambling, we have been deluged with puff pieces to accompany the media's lucrative advertising take. Only after the industry's foot is planted firmly in the door are we given the token, mealymouthed criticism of the industry.

I'm sure others have their own examples. I haven't even touched on political bias.

Start the Revolution!!!

What about RAV? Here we have a Federal, provincial, and regional governments pouring billions in a transit project that is marginal at best.

The Vancouver Sun doesn't print anti-RAV letters and no anti-RAV articles are printed on the Op/Ed pages. Only Vaughn Palmer was allowed to write on the subject because the cost soared from $1.1 billion to a present $1.9 billion. Put another way, RAV's cost has exceeded two FastFerry fiascos, yet the Liberal friendly media on heaps scorn on those who ask pointed questions on the project.

Good old NW is more blunt, they just banned any anti-RAV guest, except for the DoRAV Right folks, but they are only against cut and cover construction, not the project on the whole.

Misleading statements about RAV & TransLink are the norm for our major media. See no RAV, hear no RAV, Speak no RAV is the motto of the CORUS and Asper bunch.

I actually hear RAV people all the time on Corus... mostly it's the Do RAV right, but I've seen some stuff about the overall costs.

I've been reading Tyee for a few months now andsome of the followup comments. After reading many of the above (most of which I agree with), especially those comments regarding letters to the editor, I wanted to ask why people are hiding their commentary behind a login name/pseudonym. When one writes a letter to the editor of a newspaper, a name and address must be included or it will not be published. I have had several letters published in local papers and the Vancouver Sun over the years and of course have had direct feedback from colleagues and friends, most of it positive. I feel that these blogs/comments following Tyee articles lack seriousness and credibility b/c of the anonymity involved. In regards to the above discussion which went off on an interesting RAV tangent in the last few postings - Major cities have rapid transit, need more rapid transit that looks to the future for energy needs, and must build rapid transit NOW to be ready for the future transportation needs of the region. I can't understand why anyone who has ever visited a major North American or European city could ever argue against rapid transit of any kind for Vancouver and surrounding area. Let's build rapid transit instead of increasing the size of HWY 1 (could save that beautiful median natural area that is home to hawks, blue herons, coyotes, prey species, mature and new trees, meadows, etc...). We need good journalism, some news stations that are independent of big corporations (CBC works for me) AND good rapid transit. Sorry to be so longwinded on my first visit.

American radio will leave you in shock and awe over the stupidity of Bush and his base.

If you can't get CBC, Co-op radio's the way to go. Someone mentioned CKUA out of Alberta. There's also Kootenay Co-op Radio, if you're in range of the signal.

vgladish Re: use of pseudonyms.

Well the use of a pseudonym allows people to both voice freely and react to points without fear of retaliation at some point or another. Some people have political aspirations, others opinions could be used against them at the workplace, or whereever, or some, just really don't feel like using their real names on blogs etc. I also believe that its a carryover from chatrooms etc, plus it could also be a security thing as well. Everyone has their reasons.

Now back to the topic at hand... the tired old "top dog" NW 980. You could seriously hear the toilet flushing once Corus starting wrapping their pig farming paws all over it. The elimination of any type of music on air due to licensing costs (Phil Till's signature theme "Always look on the bright side of life" or other musical interludes played by either Frosty or whoever was guest hosting... gone in a stroke of a bean counters pencil) Changing the branding from NW 98 to Newstalk 980 or whatever catch phrase they're using for their drivel.

Then of course the bs involved with Rafe and that entire fiasco. I drive all day professionally, and at that point, I listened to NW up until the end of the Rafe Mair show then put something else on, namely due to a lack of tolerance for Not So Good Bill's BS. ("My taxcut paid for my roof deck")

Then once they cut Rafe and he was on 600, it was up until the end of the Frosty Forst show, then onto Rafe, then onto some music or something. Once again, tolerance for fluff radio hosts (Mather and Good... Warren's comedic) is low. Then they screwed up and Frosty told them to shove it. That's when I told them to shove it as well. I listened to the first (and at the time was hoping the last) Phil Till morning show. To go from cut ups and humour in the morning to frankly bland boring radio full of interviews rather than good natured humour, was depressing.

Alot of their good news reporters have gone onto other things... good and not so good. Vivianna Zannaco is the head squawkbox for Vancouver Coastal. John Ashbridge just retired, and Yvonne Eamore is communications with the Vancouver School Board. It's become the Ted Field News Show. BORING. Shaw should do themselves a favour, hold a farewell party and put the "Top Dog" out of its painful misery.

The control of the media is a long standing and carefully executed plan for mind control and on the long run to world control by special interests. It is part of the so called "globalization" and going on, together with the control of certain university departments, like economics and some sciences, all over the world. I have worldwide contacts through my work in economics and they all report the same in all the countries, be it Australia, Asia, or Europe.
Ed Deak, Big Lake (Nom de plume, of course, as I'm scared somebody could object to what I write)

Wasn't Rafe one of those promoting Christie Clark when she was a fresh young face running for the first time with the Liberals?

If he was promoting a party with a corporate agenda for governemnt then, but is now whinging about the corporate media, doesn't that come across as at least a bit hypocritical? Wasn't he a part of the corporate echo chamber? Maybe he didn't always jump when they told him to jump, but that was the thrill of some acts of futile rebellion - he was fired in the end.

I do not think Rafe's articles fit The Tyee. I really do not regard his voice as being progressive, but I guess it was a move for the Tyee to boost their name a bit and get some of his radio audience. Let some budding muckraker take his place. I think that is what Rafe is asking for in this piece, anyhow.

oh, fiat lux. how i love opportunities to pull out my favourite barsamian quote:

"One of the intentions of corporate-controlled media is to instill in people a sense of disempowerment, of immobilization and paralysis. Its outcome is to turn you into good consumers. It is to keep people isolated, to feel that there is no possibility for social change."

- David Barsamian, The Daily Texan, June 25, 1998

it's fun to coincide with rafe mair, particularly because i've spent most of my life disagreeing with him or being enraged by him.

but i do think he's sliding left when the decay of quality journalism is so evident locally, nationally and internationally.

that's the theme of a mair-coincidental piece i punted out this morning:

http://dgivista.org/2005/08/headline-ambiguity-in-political.html

Vgladish, just a note.

Building rapid transit, doesn't rapid transit make. The Expo & Millennium Lines have yet to carry their predicted ridership, in fact SkyTrain is only carrying less than 1/3 of its predicted ridership, the result: maintenance costs suck vast sums of money from the rest of the transit system. SkyTrain, being driverless, must be maintained at 100% or else it doesn't work. The present costs are not justified with present ridership.

The Calgary LRT is carrying about twice as many passengers per day as SkyTrain, yet its operational costs are 60% less than just the skyTrain Expo line!

RAV will be more of the same.

Despite investing over $3 billion in direct costs and over $2 billion in debt servicing. SkyTrain has failed to achieve any notable success and is carrying about the same ridership as a LRT system would, cosing about 1/3 less to build and much less to operate!

On another note, i don't think Rafe promoted Ms. Clark as he hates Liberals, only as an ex liberal can.

Back to NW, I used to listen to the station for years, as I felt it was a BC station, concerned with BC first. Now, sadly, its another Eastern Ontarion job, that treats the locals as colonials. Too bad, BC needs a voice and RAFE and a very few other BC types are the only ones sticking up for us. Love him or hate hin, Rafe is sticking up for BC and its bloody well time we start doing it for ourselves!

I used to be an NW fan, but I was down there this summer and all I heard was crap. Even one guy telling callers to shut up and disconnecting them like a Bill ORielly wannabee.
All this whining about 'liberal media', and I can't seem to find any....

I can't stand to even listen to CKNW most of the time - especially on week-ends. It has turned into a cesspool of rightwing talk show hosts that fuel anti-Canadian government and pro-American Republicanism for Canada and to constant pitch for Western alienation and separation is enough to make me want to barf. There is a definite agenda being pushed in my opinion and it to divide and conquer. The Conservatives would love to see Quebec separate and Alberta yaps about separation and keeps including BC in the rhetoric - well I'm a BC person and not a chance that I'd ever want to break up our country. Of course their hope is we would just meld into the US. Rafe is always bitching on and on about the East as well. I'm sick of it. In my house we have a visit with the rest of Canada from coast to coast when we sit around the kitchen table playing cards and listening to Crosscountry Checkup where a topic of interest if discussed by callers from all over Canada and lots from BC I might add. Listening to a lot of really fine Canadians restores my faith in our country because there are still a lot of good sensible people out there. eh? Its on Sunday afternoon from 1pm to 3 pm - unfortunately with the CBC lockout we miss it.

Cross Country Check Up was nice but I'm rather liking the exchange of ideas right here on the Tyee -- although I can't attest to the niceness of everybody nor to their origin as I can when listening to Check Up (At least we don't have to deal with censorous producers and Rex Murphy's ridiculous turrets-like regurgitation of dictionary words).

The more I think about it, I'm not keen to push too hard for the CBC status quo. It has a long way to go before I could fully put my faith in it. I expecting the lockout and the CMG's coverage of it would reveal more of the internal censorship and pro-government bias that has so blatantly set in.

Maybe these CBC staff need to spend a bit of time in the street to face again the common everyman and remember why they got into journalism in the first place. I get a kick out of comparing the strikers at the CBC with those up the street at Telus. As a friend said, they are definitely a cut above the average teamsters what with their trendy eyeglasses, panama hats and other somewhat contrived lockout gear. I can only IMAGINE what Toronto looks like.

have to agree with you rebel it seems that the right wing isn't going to be happy until they split this country into little bits and pieces for the americans to gobble up. A few years ago people would have called us crazy for saying this but not anymore, shows how bold and arrogant they have become! Now why would irwin suggest we listen to a fox radio station in seattle.

With regards to RAV and public transit, and costs consider the following:

I would suggest a system that makes use of busses, trolleys/streetcars and commuter train.

The bus, trolley or streetcar require no new right of way, take space from cars which continue to be driven thus contributing to congestion which will make some car drivers take public transit, until they see less traffic, and return to their car commute, which then gets congested as the car drivers begin driving again, and so then return to public transit and so on.

Building new roads or bridges, or widening bridges will result in eventually just as much congestion; at tremendous expense; and if in 1, 2, 5, 10 years oil is prohibitively expensive much of the road infrastructure built today and the next couple of years may be relatively unused-would that be a good investment of public dollars?

Oh and public transit should be free as it contibutes to the common good of all citizens, rather than the car which contributes only to those that can afford to drive, as well as the corporations that "service" the car.

A point was raised about letters to the editor and why there are no letters about crappy cars, over inflated real estate and a third topic that I can't recall at the moment.

No paper is going to allow its big money makers (car ads, car classifieds, real estate ads, etc)to be critisized by letters to the editor! Even on television the car shows(endorsements) never have anything real negative to say about the car that the manufacturer/auto dealer let then test drive!

Sure the cup holders may be too small and the dome light too bright, but all in all it rates a 4 out of 5! Look at the friday Sun-two fricking sections on the car!!!

Luckily the well (s) will soon run dry and the "food" of the automobile will get real expensive and hopefully bring about real change. Do not believe this will happen? Look, now every time there is a hurricane in the states the price of oil goes up. Do you think it will soon go down?

DREAM ON!!

I could not agree with Rafe more. It's sad how compliant BC journalists have become over the last decade. I can only guess they are afraid of being fired for pursuing stories contrary to the interests of their corporate paychecks.

I would ask Mr. Mair, however, how he views his retellings of his book purchases on his latest trip anything better than what is currently be offered by other media?

I don't think there is anything seriously wrong with the CHOICES we have to access almost any viewpoint that we seek. It's all out there so I don't know why there is all this complaining. I can access anything I want, and so can you. The question seems to be that some people think their points of vies are not carried by the OLD MEDIA. Yes, probably not, that's why we have the Tyee and others who offer a forum for views that collide.

you are not complaining ronny because your idiotology is very well represented and the people who just want the facts to come to their own opinion on major issues are poorly represented in media world.

Freebear, good point about the politicos using the letters to the editor section to continue their advertizing.

I've notice in recent years a return to that phenomena, which is strange because when the NDP were in power in Victoria, a great many BC papers took the position that politicians were not welcome in the letters section.

I guess now that most of the media chains have slashed their political coverage the editors are starting to worry that government can't get it's message out or something.

Back to this story line, I think the first obvious sign that something was really amiss in BC's media was the Gustafson Lake stand-off coverage back in the mid '90s.

It was virtually impossible to find one reporter who was not deeply embedded within the tight RCMP view of the event, as exemplified by Sgt. Peter Montegue, then chief spokesthingy for the Horsemen.

Oddly enough, good ol' Peter made a brief cameo in another media embedding event, this one played out on the lawn of former BC premier Glen Clark.

Last I heard he took paid leave from his job and actually considered running as a provincial Liberal under Gordon Campbell, the man who tipped the RCMP off about the lies that led to the police raid on Clark's home.

I know Clark was vindicated in court, but what ever happened to the sarg? Did he too move to Hawaii?

discoverthenetworks.org

Ron,

Complaining and whining are good. We need more of it. As a nation we are too quick to roll over and accept the excrement that is dumped on us. As the title of a book says, Tax me. I'm Canadian.

You are correct in one area. We who post on The Tyee are smart. Unfortunately, the vast majority will never log on but will be reading the dailies which will throw us titbits between elections but come election time will act as one.

This has meant that the NDP has not only to oppose other parties but a mainstream media as "together" as any trade union.

Who can forget the media excesses over a piddling porch to a modest home, the milking of the FastCat situation and the exploiting of some penny-ante bingo games - this latter from the at-the-time Opposition sanctimoniously against gambling but which has much expanded it to include thousands of slot machines and raised maximium bets, originally $5 to a maximum of $2,500 - on the turn of one card.

Almost anyone can bitch about media bias and make a case. That's why you have to seek out media that stimulates fair debate.
Last Saturday I listened with amusement as CBS, ABC, NBC, NRO, PBS aired a story that said that ONE American freedom fighter was killed in Iraq that day bringing the total deaths of Americans in the Iraq conflict to 1838 dead.
One ! Is that worth making an big deal about ? I don't think so.
Take 150,000 people and send them into the desert in a foreign third world country for three years and you are bound to have at least that many deaths no matter what the circumstances are.
Old Media B.S. is easy to spot.
If you require further information go to ' discoverthenetworks.org

I find he double-stantard the most annoying.

The local media in Calgary go on about the federal Liberals being in power for 12 years being too long yet they love that the conservatives have been in power in Alberta for 33 years and that is fine.

They condem the federal Liberals for under-estimating the federal surplus but when Ralph Klein does the same thing it is called prudent.

It goes on and on. The scary thing is so few people notice this double-standard.

so it is ok for you ronny that young american soldiers are getting killed? This is the point you are making in claims that the media is biased towards the war in Iraq, the invasion for oil, that they are biased towards the right wing??? Why are you not on the front lines, let me guess because cowards don't do they dictate!

1838 dead is a hell of a lot of people, most of whom have mothers fathers children brothers and sisters and a life at home, dead for what???

So fools can run around in Hummers, look at me I am a bigshot because I can afford this gas guzzling piece of sh!t. Jeez! I have never seen one off road and probably never will!

I find it sick that you find it amusing that so many are dead for oil, how many Iraqi children are dead women and old men who are innocent of any crimes against george w and his sick supporters like you.

What really pisses me off is that el gordo is meeting behind closed doors with bushes right hand man, this put on by the fraser institute, a lobby group for the american cause in my opinion!

Invasion for oil ? If the Americans wanted an EASY target for invasion for oil they would only need to move a few dozen troops up to Canada and they could have all the oil they would ever need. I don't think it's that simple, but to a lazy mind I guess that's some comfort.

it is that simple, why else! They don't have to invade us, they have politicians like el gordo and klein, have you actually taken a look at who owns the oil and gas here?

gordo has just delivered Terasen to the americans, lock stock and barrel, oh yes lets not forget nafta and the federal liberals crawling all over themselves to help out american corporations on shopping spree. Read Mel Hertigs book Vanishing Country.

In no way am I defending Ron, but I think he was trying to point out that the american media or "War on Terror" propaganda machine are quick to tell a story of one american soldier killed in Iraq, but not so quick to do a story on the civilian dead in Iraq.

Of course Canada is selling off our future energy reserves for short term gain (jobs, royalties, income taxes, etc.), however when gasoline is $5 per litre and oil is $200/barrel will they (citizens) still think it was a good idea?

Why should america invade when they own (or at least they own the company which then decides who to sell their oil or nat. gas to) the companies who sell the energy they find? Is no one in Canada worried that if oil is runnning out, why are we in such a hurry to sell it? If it sells for $70 per barrel today, just imagine the royalties when oil is $200 per barrel!

Freebar; no, that is not what I was trying to point out about the war. What I was trying to point out is exactly waht I said.
Also, the oil supply will never run out, we have barely scratched the surface.

you might be right freebear but I would never expect ronny to be concerned about iraqi civilians? It doesn't make sense to allow a foreign state to control our oil or set the price we pay at the pump.

didn't think so.

All this talk about oil.

A U.S. talk show moderator last night mentioned gasoline for Venezualans at 12-cents per gallon while across the U.S., motorists were paying almost $3.00.

Perhaps with this storm that's just hit, that $3.00 will have been reached and passed. Certainly this venal industry will offer the storm and any other excuse it can conjure up to further milk the motorist and all reliant on oil.

For those whose mantra is to privatize everything, Venezuala's oil is nationalized. PetroCanada was a pale model.

It is little wonder to me that there are those in positions of power in the U.S. that would like Venezuala's President offed - and even advocated that. The social responsibility of one and the greed of the other are so starkly apparent.

hey ronny you better do a little research on peak oil!

So I was wrong Ron, you realy are a heartless bast...!

That is the last time I will mention your name

P.S. check out peak oil Ron, denial of the problem will not work though it may soothe you!

I Googled ' peak oil junk science ' this is merely a controversial theory like Global Warming.

try peak oil then ronny, do you really think the oil supply is that endless, China India Korea Europe North America are all consuming oil, do you consider that to be junk science also.

Why if the oil supply is endless are we not producing more, why is it costing 5 dollars a gallon here, because the oil companies are greedy and they know it won't last forever you fool!

Anything that challenges your greed you put off as junk science, well I have news for you ronny your ass will be bitten too!

...cknw and peak oil...you guys are pure class !

commentor: Crass posted: 21 Hours Ago
Start the Revolution!!!

commentor: netscaper2 posted: 1 Hour Ago
...cknw and peak oil...you guys are pure class !

??? Oil - not a hot button issue?

I wish lazy one-liners would try to do better.
Such pathetic bait

I agree 100% with Rafe. First thing that happened when Liberals came in...was a sudden decline in print and TV ( owned 90% in BC by right wing Canwest ) political reporting.
The the papers went on a spree of printing Liberal press releases word for word...then gleefully posting the pro Lib one pagers you and I paid for leading up the election...
( that and the election TV ads we also paid for )....ignoring any sensitive issues until after the election. Staggering lack of democracy in the past few years...

Ron, the southern USA has just been devestated by their worst hurricane in history. Why was it so devestating, you say? The Gulf waters are 3 degrees warmer than usual and hurricanes thrive off of warm sea water. Global warming a theory? Not, its happening and the $30 billion (in 24 hours the cost of the storm went from $15 billion to $25 billion! Just heard an ecconomist on CNN saying $30 billion is a most realistic number!) clean up will put costs up all over North America.

Oil reserves are down and that is no theory either, you best give your head a shake and join the real world!

The pine beetle devastation of BC is also caused by the global warming. We didn't have a cold winter for years to kill the eggs and the beetles got out of control. This is how we're paying for the transferred costs of "cheap oil".

Anybody who denies the fact of global warming is either a brainwashed "conservative" nutcase, or some pimp scientist paid off to say anything his/her masters demand.

A very good friend of mine, who goes to China sevaral times a year on business, just wrote to me of a 5 hour road trip out Beijing the other day. The "economic miracle" of China is choking the whole country under smog, incredible pollution, mess and garbage, poverty, people piled into huge towers. Filth and sickness all over.

So much for the "oil economy". Those who deny the destructive facts of it remind me of Dr.Josef Goebbels, who made his last broadcast about the coming great nazi victory in WW2, then went home dodging Russian bullets on the way, poisoned his children and then shot himself. Good example for some of our politicians. Ed Deak, Big Lake.

Just overheard on this morning's Bill Good program...

Topic: What can be done to help the flood victims in the US?

A caller asks, "Has anyone thought of sending the striking (actually locked-out) Telus workers so they can actually be doing something productive?"

Good's response, "I have to admit I hadn't thought of that." Then deflects the caller's question to a Red Cross spokesperson.

Netscaper2 wrote:

Hey look...this idiot is back again. His MO is to drop into a thread, tell everyone they're stupid, classless and out of their depth, then move on.

No comment on Rafe's opinion, no comment on the on-topic discussion, no comment on the meaningful tangent re. oil prices.

Do you have an opinion about anything Netscaper2? Please share it so we can see how classy you are....

Glad to see someone else finally putting RE on permanent ignore. We have not even scratched the surface eh? Wow! This rivals your claim that 99% of all the worlds wealth is still out there just waiting to be exploited! What a fuc*ing moron, and you don't have the balls to drop the gloves with me. I slap you repeatedly and chalenge you to a proper debate and you run to the next thread and spew garbage. No more. You and I will have it out here and now...to the death. The loser leaves Tyee forever.

Grumpy; The National Hurricane Council has data that shows hurricane strikes (landfalls) by decade in the US since 1900. The 1940's were rather busy, the 70's the quitest and the 90"s pretty close to the long term average. There is no reasonable scientific way to draw a conclusion that greenhouse gases or so called Global Warming contributed to Katrina.
In fact there were 19 hurricane strikes in the 20's, 15 in the 60's and 14 in 1999.
Global warming storm surge is bunk.

The claim that human caused Global Warming is a fiction, ranks up there with Ronald Reagan's assertion that a good deal of air pollution is caused by trees!

The problem with the deniers' position is that
they seem unable to produce a single credentialed expert such as a reputable climatologist to back up their claims. The "scientists" they've produced so far have no credentials in the field of climate studies.
They trumpeted some guy who wrote "The Sceptical Environmentalist", who opined on global warming. Too bad his credentials are
as a statistician, not a climate scientist.
He's a red herring. And the G.W. evidence has grown in the years since his book, not diminished.

Even the Bush admin., long time deniers, no longer deny. Bush now admits Global Warming is a problem and that it is at least partly human caused. His position has morphed from denial to
acknowledgment, but he is disinterested in actually tackling the problem.I wonder why...

Is it a coincidence that the Bush admin., once deniers, but now reluctant acknowledgers, and
dedicated foot-draggers, have strong ties to the oil industry? Forunately, many individual States are ignoring Bush and going ahead and passing their own laws to lessen green house gasses, with, eg., tighter coal power regs.

The fact that the Bush admin. would deliberately act to the detriment of both
the long term interests of the US and the World, in order to serve short term profit interests of their friends in the oil industry,
is another example of just how corrupt, cynical, and treacherous the US system of "democracy" and "freedom" really is.
And an irresponsible media, by keeping the public misinformed, has helped allow
the Bushies to get away with too much for too long.

It's ironic that one effect of G.W. may be more and stronger hurricanes - hitting right where it hurts for the oil industry - the US Gulf Coast!
The oil industry in lobbying for a do nothing approach to G.W. may end up wrecking
the US oil industry itself! Katrina may be just the start for the US's oil hub, as major hurricanes may become common instead of rare.

as per usual ron, you've completely ignored the facts supporting the link between hurricanes and global warming. i backchecked grumpy's post and he didn't mention anything about the number of hurricanes and global warming. you brought it up and you're right, there has not been a increase in the number of hurricanes. but that's where you stopped in you (very weak) assertion. global warming has been linked to the intensity of hurricanes - since the 70's hurricanes have been more powerful and have caused more destruction. do you even understand science and the scientific method ron?

btw, what's the National Hurricane Council? I googled it but it turned up nothing?

Everything is President Bush's fault isn't it. The man has only been in power for 5 years and yet he has been able to heap such destruction on the world. It doesn't matter waht he does he is still going to be hated by the left (out). He is a great leader who doesn't govern to special interest groups or by the polls. The man's job is ONLY to protect the interests of the United States. That's it, it's not complicated. He doesn't give a shite about anything else, nor should he. And major hurricanes are not becoming common. They were more common in the period of 1910 to 1919.
So what are you talking about ?

Sorry' it's The National Hurricane Centre.
And again I suggest you Google Global Warming junk science.
To BOB999 congradulations for joining Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and other political oppotunists for using this disaster as a vehicle to score goofy political points, disgusting.

National Hurricane Centre
Predictions for this season.
Certain to continue the trend since the ninties of above average activity.
nws.noaa.gov

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HOME > Expert Assessments > Atlantic Hurricane Outlook Update

NOAA PRESS RELEASE

NOAA: August 2005 Update to Atlantic Hurricane Season Outlook
Issued: 2 August 2005

Realtime monitoring of tropical Atlantic conditions
Realtime monitoring of tropical East Pacific conditions

Atlantic Hurricane Outlook & Seasonal Climate Summary Archive

SUMMARY
NOAA is calling for a 95% to 100% chance of an above-normal 2005 Atlantic hurricane season, according to a consensus of scientists at National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's (NOAA) Climate Prediction Center (CPC), Hurricane Research Division (HRD), and National Hurricane Center (NHC). This forecast reflects NOAA’s highest confidence of an above-normal hurricane season since their outlooks began in August 1998.

The updated outlook calls for an extremely active season, with an expected seasonal total of 18-21 tropical storms (mean is 10), with 9-11 becoming hurricanes (mean is 6), and 5-7 of these becoming major hurricanes (mean is 2-3). The likely range of the ACE index for the season as a whole is 180%-270% of the median.

The predicted seasonal totals include the considerable activity that has already occurred prior to this update (7 tropical storms and 2 major hurricanes). Therefore, for the remainder of the season, we expect an additional 11-14 tropical storms, with 7-9 becoming hurricanes, and 3-5 of these becoming major hurricanes. The expected ACE range during August-November is 110%-200% of the median. These very high levels of activity are comparable to those seen during August-November 2003 and 2004. Given the forecast that the remainder of the season will be very active, it is imperative that residents and government officials in hurricane-vulnerable communities have a hurricane preparedness plan in place.

The predicted nearly 100% chance of an above-normal season is higher than the 70% likelihood indicated in NOAA’s pre-season outlook issued May 16th. This increased certainty reflects the fact that the atmospheric and oceanic conditions favoring hurricane formation that were predicted in May are now in place. These conditions, combined with the high levels of activity already seen, make an above-normal season nearly certain.

Ron Erwin is an old Goalie, who played back in the day before masks were invented. When you see him, please put a loonie in his pot.

Don't debate him it pointless, as Ron will tell you 99% of oil still remains in the ground. How do you debate that? Best to ignore. Had enough yet?

He usually goes away when confronted with hard factual evidence.

"He is a great leader who doesn't govern to special interest groups or by the polls"

Ron what are you talking about?

THe religious right is the biggest Special interest group out there! Notice how much of their adgenda has been taken care of since Bush's election... or how about the Oil companeis that funded him? Bush is ALL about special interest - it shocks me you can't see that.

One year does not a trend make, if you can get ahold of todays National Post please read article by George H. Taylor who is a state climatologist for Oregon and a faculty at Oregon State University College of Oceanic and Atmospheric Sciences, titled Global warming storm surge is bunk on page FP19. It's only an opinion, but there is more to this than a single year blip.

...and an update....
NOAA RAISES THE 2005 ATLANTIC HURRICANE SEASON OUTLOOK
Bulk of This Season's Storms Still to Come

Aug. 2, 2005 — A very active Atlantic hurricane season is underway, and with more storms projected, NOAA today increased the number of storms in its 2005 hurricane season outlook. NOAA expects an additional 11 to 14 tropical storms from August through November, with seven to nine becoming hurricanes, including three to five major hurricanes. In total, this season is likely to yield 18 to 21 tropical storms, with nine to 11 becoming hurricanes, including five to seven major hurricanes. (Click NOAA satellite image for larger view of Hurricane Dennis as the storm made landfall near Pensacola, Fla., as a Category Three hurricane on July 10, 2005. Click here for high resolution version. Please credit “NOAA.”)

Ron's probably referring to the National Hurricane Center:

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/

Climatology and history are here:

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/pastprofile.shtml

A cursory glance suggests the data are inconclusive re. a direct link, especially since some of the data refer to only to named cyclones that have hit the continental US.

However as someone who checks the site closely, and who tracked Katrina from her genesis as a tropical depression SW of the Bahamas, I can tell you that the forecasters are constantly citing extraordinarily high sea-surface temperatures in their predictions (2-3 celcius higher than normal in the Gulf).

They've also noted that we had the highest count of named cyclones in the Atlantic basin before August 1st,(i.e. tropical storms and hurricanes), in history.

The Northern Hemisphere season isn't over yet Ron, and the data need to be interpreted in a global context, accounting for typhoons (North Pacific, East Asia and Indian Ocean), and cyclones (Australia, Indonesia and Polynesia), as well as Atlantic and Eastern Pacific hurricanes.

Your attempt to draw conclusions from a selective reading of data at the National Hurricane Center is yet another attempt to explain the world in accordance with your political beliefs. Once again, you come across as a narrow-minded fraud who will grasp at any straw to make your point.

The NOAA clearly states....IF you were to actually read it, Ron, the increase in storms is here, the increase in intensity is here. But don't take their word for it, go read some local island publications Ron, since you are such a fan of reading. See what the locals are saying, especially the ones who have been there a while.

Deeby; you have agreed to my point, anyside of a particular debate uses selsctive information to draw conclusions that explain the world in accordance with their political beliefs. So I guess we are all frauds ! Or am I more of a fraud than you because I promote coservative ideas ? All science is junk science, especially yours.

George H Taylor, Climatologist
Have a quick look at his transcript "What's happening in the arctic." Early on he states he gets his inspiration from the bible, Solomon specifically, reputed to be the smartest man ever. He learns by observation. So to, it seems are George's thoughts, as he says "I base my research on observation." He offers his opinion on other research but I get the feeling he passes it over as not really a good fit for man and religion. Is there some sort of religious connection between these seemingly narrow views? Bush supporters, Karl Rove, Pat Robertson, Ron Erwin....

Unlike you Ron, I haven't drawn any particular conclusion from NOAA data, other than to point to some anecdotes that might indicate a trend in a particular direction. And I haven't dismissed an increasingly large body of research as 'junk science'. Remember the adage 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence', or if that isn't plain enough for you, read the following carefully:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

It's the only explanation when there is no way to reason with someone. Junk science. Of course it is when you are taught that it's man first. Ahead of woman, plant, animal and mother nature in general. You are the chosen one Ron, you and your God Jehovah. Who do think you are? Charleton Heston?

absence of logic: When you can take some simple facts like, Humans are impacting the quality of life on this planet and completely ignore it.

absence of reason: No ability to see objectively.

absence of brain activity: Ron Erwin. Makes simian gestures of observation. Monkey see, monkey do....

Deeby; read this carefully @#%$&*)&^&?:"&&%$%,
It's code that has all the answers you are seeking.

Here is an example of the kind of work Karl Rove does for George Bush, your hero Ron....

Perhaps the most famous alleged use of push polls is in the 2000 United States Republican Party primaries, when it was alleged that George W. Bush's campaign used push polling to torpedo the campaign of Senator John McCain. Voters in South Carolina reportedly were asked "Would you be more likely or less likely to vote for John McCain for president if you knew he had fathered an illegitimate black child?", an allegation that had no substance, but planted the idea of undisclosed allegations in the minds of thousands of primary voters. McCain and his wife had in fact adopted a Bangladeshi girl.

Gee clubofrome, I thought you cut me off, I am truly flaterred. Yeah we are all whores. The left and right. My quetion is why don't the left simple join the Muslim Terrorists ? They are way more effective at screwing up our life style, which must be the goal of the left, than by going at it with selective junk science.
Karl Rove is a brilliant man doing his best to see that the left doesn't gain power in the US. I am all in favour of that, so to me he is a hero, to the left he is evil.
It depends on what side you're on doesn't it ?

what are you doing on here so late in the day ronny is gordo going to pay you overtime or what? karl rove is a brilliant man??? Wow you have stopped to many pucks with your head!

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0831-04.htm It's curious how major media have so far been silent on one aspect of the catastrophe of New Orleans and vicinity:
The fact that the Bush admin. the last few years has cut slated spending to a trickle on projects to upgrade levees, etc. One reason cited is that the Iraq war and Homeland Security have shoved the Gulf Coast off the priority list (and under water).
It looks very possible that if originally earmarked sums had been maintained, a lot fewer people would have died.
-Needless deaths in Iraq.
-Needless deaths on the Gulf Coast.
Bush's grim tally keeps growing.
No wonder his poll numbers are also now under water. It's too bad it's taken this long for US citizens to wake up to reality. If the media had been doing it's job before the election,
the US might very well now have Kerry in the White House instead of Bush's "gang that couldn't shoot straight".

And it looks like the post hurricane rescue is also now hampered due to lack of National Guardsmen, helicopters and equipment.
Many of the Guardsmen and much of the equipment now needed in the US is in Iraq instead!
http://counterpunch.org/

Lost your cool have you Ron? Run out of sites to prop up your 'argument' with?

Ron's MO is to dismiss anything that doesn't jibe with his politics as 'junk', be it science or economics. This practice now extends to logic as well.

As for his code, it translates into "I no longer have anything meaningful to say".

Does he ever have anything meaningful to say? After months of reading his opinions I've decided that he couldn't be a paid troll the righties have got to have a better informed speaker to defend them out there.

From our point Rafe is on the money (not CKNW's). We began to see this some time ago.
In BC the main press is owned back east, so are the pollsters. This province has been choking on 'alien' paid for propaganda for far too long (and I of the ex Howe Street set).

These news organization are living on keep Canada together Corporate advertising and government advertising (hereinafter Corporatizing).

These two groups of news funders may not mind paying inflated prices for advertising for a viewing audience which is muuuuuch smaller than claimed. When the 'rank and file' advertisers, the smaller business starts to figure out he's getting fleeced the 'you know' will hit the fan.

The news isn't interesting and the average person has figured out the establishment is the Wizard of the Oz, when the establishment hasn't figured out that even the 70 year old Eastern European woman who never questioned authority in her life, begins to openly remark that the courts are crooked, the politicians are in it with them, the media etc. This isn't a conspiracy discussion anymore, it is an accepted fact. As Internet use proliferates, and the information whether factual, rumoured etc. gets out to more and more people, as the younger people raised on Internet begin to control more of the means of production then the last few stitches in these dirty media britches will split wide apart.

People are bored with the media. They are more interested in what other people think (this is good) then what politicians, or academics, or other talking heads think.

LOL! Ron Erwin, I visited your beloved DiscoverTheNetworks site, and I cannot stop laughing. It's one of the most hilarious conspiracy theory sites I have seen on the internet. Thanks for the joke. No one with any intelligence could take it seriously. Obviously, it's the "right's" answer to John Stewart's Daily Show. Lots of laughs.

Chris H; boy are you ever stupid to actually visit the links posted by anyone on this site. I never do, I'm afraid of being infected.

Too late Ron you are already infected. You have a virus which is tough to cure. But yours is not genetic, it's learned behavior. Growing up in an environment of intolerance and quite likely a home prone to violence. Your condition is sometimes blamed on fetal alcohol syndrome. Therefore the behavior you saw when you were young has imprinted on your brain. You are obviously unable to think for yourself and therefore you are not at fault. I'll try and be polite to you but, just so you know, there are boundaries in society and guidelines you must follow. I assume you would rather enjoy some limited freedoms over going back under full time monitoring and daily medication. It's sad the way you have been treated. Our society will one day be judged on how we have treated our weakest members. I declare this "Be kind to dumb animals week."

More proof that the press was bought off by Liberals and has been slanting thew news ever since...

Straight Talk Straight Talk Archives
Tycoons Saw Premier
By charlie smith

Publish Date: 1-Sep-2005

Former premier Bill Vander Zalm told the Straight that he was surprised to learn that several publishing executives paid personal visits to Premier Gordon Campbell’s office in the year-and-a-half leading up to the last provincial election. Last week, the Straight reported that CanWest Global Communications Corp. CEO Leonard Asper, CanWest’s local head honcho, Dennis Skulsky, BCE CEO Michael Sabia (whose company owns CTV and the Globe and Mail), Globe and Mail publisher Phillip Crawley, and Black Press chairman David Black,chair of the British Columbia Progress Board, had each visited the premier’s office, some on more than one occasion.

Vander Zalm said that with the possible exception of Black, no publisher came to his office while he was premier from 1986 to 1991. “I don’t recall a publisher, not a single one,” Vander Zalm said.

Skulsky, publisher of the Vancouver Sun and Province newspapers, visited Campbell’s office in June of 2001, July of 2002, November of 2003, and in May of 2004. Asper’s most recent visit was on March 10, 2004, according to the premier’s day timer, which the Straight obtained through a freedom-of-information request.

Crawley visited the premier’s office on February 7, 2005, along with Globe and Mail editor-in-chief Edward Greenspon. Black was in the premier’s office in January 2004—the same month that Vancouver Canucks owner John McCaw and his second-in-command, Stan McCammon, also dropped by to see Campbell.

CanWest also gives Liberals a leg up
Publish Date: 1-Sep-2005

Prominently missing from the analysis of pro-Liberal spending [“May I take your order, please?”, “Political contributors expect results”, Aug. 25–Sept. 1] is CanWest Global’s multimillion-dollar “Believe BC” campaign. Starting in 2002, CanWest has used its media stranglehold to, in its words, “help British Columbians overcome the current economic conditions by restoring confidence in our economy and prospects”. Does anyone seriously believe this shamelessly pro-business and pro-government boosterism isn’t political advertising?

> Colin Welch / Chilliwack

JDC,

Can you say C-L-U-B ?

It's a club - and it's main purpose is to enrich its members at the expense of we-the-unwashed, over-taxed fools.

Its arsenal includes a powerful media arm with all sorts of devious tricks at its disposal to counter any revolutionary fervor it senses developing among the riffraff.

no mention from the big media hor's regarding the high cost of fuel and comondities as to what impact this will bring to the 2010 Olympics,they don't dare, this will have an effect on holdings along the the highway to no where corridor, the cost of this bull shite fiasco is not only going to go threw the the roof but will take the roof with it, guess who's going to subsidize this party for the filthy rich pigs, the fartland,again and even more, the NDP better get off their arses and start performing like a party in waiting to govern,in addition the ndp should utilize web sites more to commuicate with the people of B.C. and to hell with the big media hor's

Yeah, like the NDP doesn't spend enough on advertising. The BCTF spent 3.5 million dollars trying to take down the Campbell govt.
You can't repeat socialist B.S. over and over again and hope is sticks. Maybe a new approach is required. Perhaps they can use use the tactics of organized crime, like extortion to get their point across. Oop's I forgot, they are already doing this with a threat to strike AGAIN. As far as using the internet to get their message out, I have the perfect domain name wewantyourmoney.org

Please everyone:

Ignore Ron !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Whats a Ron? Somehing like the Runs.

no I can't ignore such stupidity it is to easy to put down, hey ronny the libs got over 8 million from business this year and that is not including the millions spent by their supporters on advertising and the millions of tax payers money spent on their feel good adds.

Supporting their media friends with our money and you think this is ok, what a moron!

The Tyee should consider its own 'awards'. The local papers give them to small business Voted the Best by readers. (no-one who doesnt' advertise is eligible). We give out Orders of Canada, and whatever the provincial version is to people who do as they are told.

The Tyee might consider Muckraker/Tell it like it is awards for efforts outside the little box. I would nominate both Charlie Smith, and yes, Bill Vander Zalm for their efforts relating to their concerns about this province, over the past few years.

Maybe Ron should get some kind of award... Like the kind you might find on the front porch on fire after you hear the doorbell?

commentor: Ron Erwin posted: 4 Hours Ago
Chris H; boy are you ever stupid to actually visit the links posted by anyone on this site. I never do, I'm afraid of being infected.
Ron Erwin 1 hr ago I have the perfect domain name wewantyourmoney.org
Ron--Ron--Ron I think your dad must have had dysfunctional sperm, therefore your the end result, can't follow your own advice can ya.

Permanent ignore is the only answer, all in favour say AYE!
...The Coalition to Ignore Ron Erwin....
C.I.R.E.

AYE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just like you might ignore the "Village idiot" !

No disrepect intended to those with actual disabilities.

Historically, Conservatives ideologically don't support conspiracy theories. On the other hand so-called socialists have been more inclined to promote the idea that conspiracies exist.

The contradition when these two positions are applied to the concept of government (size) is that one would presume the opposite relationship between conspiracy and ideology.

We believe that the reality is that conspiracies exist in some form and in some fashion at all levels. In government, in business, in institutions, and in families. Conspiracies are necessary one might argue as a measure of control. To say that oil prices for instance are controlled by an 'invisible hand' we assert would only be acceptable to a very childish mind. Moreover, if there were no conspiracies, people would be inclined to tell the truth all of the time.

Christy Clark for example would say, "Yes I would love to be the Premier of the Province, and maybe the Mayor's job is just a stepping stone, but how can the position of leader of the 3rd largest city in the country be considered a stepping stone by any reasonable person." Instead, the conspiracy, to avoid political criticism is to lie or half lie and say "well I am just interested in the Mayor's job." This is designed for that segment of the population which would be more willing to accept this silly (and untrue) explanation.

In a society where 80% of the population is in some state of denial from time to time (the remainder being drunk, drugged or watching soap operas or wrestling), obviously the truth, or reality is a difficult thing to deal with as a constant in one's life. In theory if one cannot tell themselves the truth, obviously they will accept someone else telling them a half truth, or in the alternative, a lie.

Also, psychological denial dictates that we see the term truth in an esoteric way (the Liberal way or life is inordinately grey and seldom black or white), or in the political sense, under the comfort of ideology.

The reality is that no ideology has all the answers, and cannot be considered correct absolutely. In such a state of potential flux, to deny that conspiracies do not take place, is a little like saying that the German people didn't know that there were concentration camps, when some of these were situated in the middle of their cities.

August 29, 2004

ROBBINS See Research (1998)
robbinssceresearch.com

For immediate Release

Question #1-In your opinion should the next Mayor of Vancouver necessarily reside in Vancouver City proper (and not Metropolitan Vancouver)?

Yes-61%; No-33%; Unsure/Undecided-06%

Question #2-Who would you most likely support for Mayor of Vancouver in a November 19, 2005 Mayoralty election?

Former BC Liberal Cabinet Minister Christy Clark-32%; Vancouver City Councillor and Vision Vancouver candidate Jim Green-45%; Neither-10%; Undecided-13%

Question #3-Who would you most likely support for Mayor of Vancouver in a November 19, 2005 Mayoralty election?

Vancouver City Councillor Jim Green-50%; Vancouver City Councillor Sam Sullivan-41%; Neither-07%; Undecided-02%

Commentary- This poll reveals some very interesting political sub terrain in what could end up being the most fun Vancouver City politics has witnessed in decades, (ONLY if former BC Liberal Cabinet Minister Christy Clark can be convinced to run for Mayor of Vancouver).

For instance, on the surface of this survey, it would appear that a prospective candidate for Vancouver Mayor who does not reside in the City couldn’t win. Christy Clark (who lives in Port Moody, B.C.), apparently provokes an inconsistency with some respondents in this regard, many of who support her for Mayor over Jim Green even after they have indicated in Question #1 that the next Vancouver Mayor should reside in Vancouver City (proper). Sixty-three per cent from (Question #1) indicated that the next Mayor of Vancouver should reside in that City, however statistically speaking if you consider the responses in (Question #2) this number is less than fifty per cent. In a two-candidate race fifty one per cent is required to win.

It would also appear (Question #2) that Jim Green would handily defeat Christy Clark in a head to head confrontation for Mayor, however there are a couple of underlying considerations that may make this a false assumption. Many women who think the Mayor should reside in Vancouver (Question #1), and who choose Vancouver City Councillor Jim Green over conservative Vancouver City Councillor Sam Sullivan, (Question #3) choose Christy Clark over Jim Green (Question #2). Also, Christy Clark is taking support from respondents east of Main Street. (Should she announce she intends to seek the Mayor’s job at the very popular P.N.E. while riding the roller coaster with CTV/CKNW host Bill Good)?

(Women support Jim Green in far greater numbers in this survey then men do).

In addition, the undecided number in (Question #2) is constituted by a relatively even number of men and women. According to respondent patterns (generally) in this poll, this favours Christy Clark.

Many respondents, who are undecided about Christy Clark and Jim Green, support Sam Sullivan.

(Men support Vancouver City Councillor Sam Sullivan in far greater number then they do Mayoralty candidate Jim Green).

Glen P. Robbins

(604) 942-3757
-30-

Ron Erwin:

Fox affiliate -- kills their credibility......

I find NW to be very informative and educational. For the most part their hosts are bright and well-informed, and it's hard to believe that Rafe really believes this drivel. Peter Warren, David Berner and Bill Good are easily as good at their job as Rafe the big blowhard ever was, and they're much more intelligent as well. I was thrilled when they let him go. Love to see Rafe debate the above three on this topic. How about it Rafe?

Nemesis---Peter Warren. David Warren, Bill Good, wouldn't stand a snow balls chance in hell debating even what the date is with Rafe,especially this topic, simply because they, Peter,David, Bill all eat from their masters hand,on their knees with cap in hand, they are whiners and serfs not debaters,the few times I have listened to them the moment a caller disagrees with them or "tries to debate them, their gone", arrogance in the highest order,I doubt they have had any meaningful life skills, Rafe earned his way, hard work,farmer, lawyer, politican ,radio, etc, now the internet,Im not aware of the three amigos coming even close to Rafes portfolio, their main goal in life is have their day in the sun like Fred and host Gordon in Maui, I'll simply sum this up by stating, what your three amigos do accomplise though, is simply turn good food into crap.

Woody; You quite obviously don't listen to the station, or you wouldn't make such statements. Either that or you're a complete moron.

Nemesis re read the few times I have listened to them the moment a caller disagrees with them or "tries to debate them, their gone", arrogance in the highest order,what are you another bottom feeder? or a goof.

Woodyboy; I've heard these guys challenge guests of all political stripes in order to get at the heart of a story or issue. Rafe, on the other hand, was let go b/c listeners were tired of hearing him rant and rave from his soapbox. Listen more often and more objectively Woody, and you may learn something.

After this necessary taking apart and analysis of the media, it would be useful to take a closer look at the medium we are using - the Web message board.

Questions were posed earlier regarding anonymity and the need for it. Perhaps it is not realized that the operators PREFER that we remain unknown to each other - other than by our pseudonyms.

I mention this because it was suggested to me that on some (not all) boards, the submitted message will appear on one's monitor in the thread but does not necessarily go to all posters. This would certainly be so on those boards where posters may use an "ignore" function against other posters.

I would favor just scrolling past unwanted messages since, it was suggested, the ignore feature gives power to the operator to censor messages for various reasons other than those the law may demand or are otherwise valid.

Skeptikool skip what ever want, no ones forceing you to read any thing, duh, just like I don't try to deceiver that kopply kop crap you try to peddle, I just scroll on by.

CKNW, once 'top dog', should now be called the 'old dog', and be put to sleep. Their nearly never-ending stream of infomercials on the weekends drive me up the wall. And their afternoon show from the prairies by Adler---crap! What the hell about that guy's show is "cutting edge" as the promos would have us believe? I do enjoy Peter (get on with it) Warren and David Berner, although as an earlier poster put it, he is 'a legend in his own mind'. Mike Smyth, not too bad but he's no broadcaster. There's a new guy, Dan Cook, who manages to get some excellent guests, but his fey delivery is a bit of a turnoff.

woody,

kopply kop ???

Other than not understanding "kopply kop" we seem to be in agreement.

I've aiways said that the ignore function, that was operative on the CBC boards, was for the scroll-challenged and that it served the board operator rather than the poster.

I'm for unfettered dialogue that fits within the accepted rules. How about you?

I can tell you one thing for certain. Two days prior to the U.S. election, I was speaking on the Bill Good Show, which was being hosted by Peter Warren. On the show as well was Angus Reid. Angus Reid said the Democrats were going to win and cited that young people with cellular phones were being missed by pollsters.

I said, as I had said all along, that Bush would win, (he received the 51% of votes we predicted-more than once). I commented that Mr. Reid should get on the phone himself and make a few calls, 'he didn't know what he was talking about', because the demographic of young voters simply doesn't vote in high enough numbers to support Mr. Reid's original contention about cellular phones and polling.

Well, Mr. Warren told me (with a laugh) that I should call back in a couple of days after the election. Well, naturally when I was correct I telephoned his show, which was to feature Mr. Angus Reid (the granddaddy of all pollsters in Canada). I told the producer who I was, and sat and waited. Mr. Reid was given about 40 seconds and my call was never taken.

My polling firm nailed the STV vote and was the only firm that even came close to predicting the 2005 election. Am I bragging? Well not really, I am being factual. What this little story of self-interest suggests is that the mainstream press isn't interested in the facts, it is more interested in who presents their version of the 'facts'.

In Canada, it isn't necessarily a prerequisite to be good at what you do, it is more important to be under contract.

Great scientific study Robbins. Wow, you must be right.

Nemesis: We conducted at least 7 surveys in the United States in the run-up to the election, with every survey supporting the notion that Bush was going to win. These surveys was published through all conventional news wires (even White House Communications, and hundreds of thousands of email addresses. If you do a little research, you can see the difference in the media driven polls (with hundreds of millions of dollars on the line), the alleged 'swing' they professed to be taking place in the election, which was inconsistent with what we found throughout that election, which was that Bush was going to win from 'post to post'. We don't think exit polls have the competency (people are still secretive about their ballot outside the ballot), and as mentioned, the younger demographic is still not increasing its participation totals. By phoning out important battleground states (topping up the rest of the poll), you can see how we determined the outcome. Secondly, if you do just a little research, you will find there are dozens of studies surrounding the notion of 'science'. Many modernists simply believe this is wholly trumped up in terms of a valid claim to legitimacy, to wit: control. All these discussions we hear about science this and science that when politicos are making their case are fast becoming archaic forms of reasoning. These studies are many and varied in their criticism of 'science' but this is an important element of this issue when we talk about the media and information.

You will find 1st and 2nd year University texts on propaganda etc. that will also support the idea that media, science, and the establishment are in cahoots to present a cohesive message, or a group of messages whether consistent or not that they control.

My point all through this discussion, and in response to Rafe's article is that the public is fast becoming less influenced by this. When we call the United States for instance, you cannot believe how quickly we can conduct a poll if the questions are reasonably clear.

In the last year or so we are finding that Canadians are becoming much faster at responding to the questions. If you look at some of the research and it is pervasive on the Internet, you will get a clearer understanding of the theory being advanced, which would make for a better discussion than simple off handed sarcasm, which is cheap and easy but of no benefit.

addendum: Rafe was likely let go from CKNW for his position on the fish farms on Vancouver Island. He went on and on every show ripping the Campbell government. He started a boycott. The decision to let Rafe go in my opinion was directly related to a corporate decision at Corus to move away from this old style talk show stuff and move directly into supporting advertising sales.

The result is polite news. The question is: is this really what the public wants, or do some consume it because there are no more worthwhile alternatives.

Rafe and I know each other well. We have often crossed swords and, as a frequent caller, I've often been the victim of the games (with the moderator's compliance or not) that are played by the talk shows' producers who normally take the calls before going on air.

He was into red-baiting me quite a bit and delighted in calling me a Johny One-note because I would frequently talk about electric vehicles and withheld technology etc. Given his anti fish-farm campaign, that was a laugh.

For all that, I believe the man lacks the pettiness that infects other moderators I've called and, even on fish farms, was always listenable to me.

I took and gave insults knowing that good talk radio is part theatre and should entertain as well as inform.

I've appreciated interviews with many of his his guests immensely and while, in the past, Rafe has been an absolute jerk, it can honestly be said that he is against Radio Dullsville.

I tried CKNW. All I got was this rightwing, armchair critic:
http://www.charlesadler.com/

Yep... we've got to the point on the Old Dog where they can't find anyone to host their early afternoon show, so they've resorted to piping in another dinosaur talk show host, from Winnipeg. Can't they find a political commentator or an actual journalist to actually host that slot, rather than subjecting people to more endless drivel from back east?

It's a sad commentary on the quality of our radio journalistic media out here that the Old Dog has to import a yak show from Winnipeg. I guess that with Crusty running for Mayor in Vancouver we now have our answer as to why she didn't take the slot. Here's a novel idea for 'NW, just fill the time up, instead of with Adler, how about local infomercials. Or even better... hire that Vijay character away from Jack FM, and give him his own talk show. OR use Brother Jake on there, that'll sure liven things up.

RickW,

Re: http://www.charlesadler.com/

Cute! Very cute, Charles.

kegler,

Few things scare the media more, and few are more controlled, than the "open" topic.

As far as livening things up, look across this board. We may not be dead, yet I seem to detect the onset of rigor mortis.

For those who prefer an 'open' media, now is probably an exciting time. A decade of an unthreatened Jean Chretien likely contributed to a more 'closed' media.

Now Paul Martin has a minority. His government is 'threatened'. This is very good, because it makes his government nervous. Their job is to survive, and they may or may not. When a situation is 'closed' and you wish it to be 'open' than those who are perceived to contributors to 'closing' it should be 'threatened'.

The media in the context of this discussion/debate/blog are seen by Rafe and many others to be 'closed'. For those who want 'to open the media up' the proliferation of new ideas, open ideas, even seemingly strange ideas would be welcome.

Eventually the pluralism of new ideas aggregates into a type of 'critical mass' which forces the (perceived 'closed') mainstream media to change or lose audience and money and face financial ruin, which is not and should not be in their mandate.

However to do so permits others with new ideas, perhaps better ideas, to be front and centre in the spotlight, and leave the 'closed' media behind. People who earn their living in the media may be so busy doing what they do, that they are unawares of the 'threat'. If change in media is what you want, than this is good. Similarly if change in politics is what you want, a concerted threat is also a good thing.

If you see the mainstream media as 'closed' and prefer it to be more 'open' than the notion that no one person can compel any political change would be more of a lie than it has ever been.

Like Kurtz in the cave, the media has placed its support with Liberal parties provincially and federally. Historically speaking, this is not new.

It would follow however that if the media does not change and continues down this path, and Liberal governments are purged, than the opportunity for change in all of media will be significant.

September 4, 2005

Glen P. Robbins

Coquitlam Now Newspaper

Re: Article by Angela MacKenzie “Clark leaving Moody”

Your article regarding Christy Clark’s departure from Port Moody for Vancouver politics provides some interesting insight into the women’s persona as this relates to the potential advancement of her political career.

Essentially, Ms. Clark says she plans a move to Vancouver at least in part to be around her friends there, and to “have coffee with” ‘friends who are at that life stage that she and her husband are “with a four year old little guy”.

This statement suggests that Ms. Clark sees herself and her young family as presently disconnected from the demographic she leaves behind in Port Moody.

When Ms. Clark and her husband were younger and without a child, Port Moody apparently worked very well for them. Has Port Moody outgrown Christy Clark, or has Christy Clark outgrown Port Moody?

The difficulty I have answering this question may provide some insight into similar questions that Vancouver voters may ask of Christy. They may ask themselves “Is our prospective Mayor looking for a relationship of (superficial) convenience, and will she evntually toss us aside as Mayor Larry Campbell did, for ‘something better’?

Or they may ask, “Is Christy Clark capable of a relationship with the people of Vancouver”? Ms. Clark’s own words seem to suggest that she may never really have had one with the people in Port Moody.

Sincerely,

Glen P. Robbins

(Glen P. Robbins is a private political pollster).

As usual, Rafe is right on.

To give you an example of how much Bill Good has lost touch, he was the only major radio personality to go against the grain in the recent referendum for BC-STV. Most of his counterparts (including Smyth, Berner, Faux and Macombe) at CKNW were for the Citizens' Assembly's recommendation.

Guess Bill doesn't believe in restoring demoracy to BC. What a shame!

Great deduction Rabble. Bill Good doesn't agree with you so he's anti-democratic. What a crock, but so typical of you lefties. You guys are tiresome, mundane and cliche.

nemesis,

The thing is, just as many believe Bush "stole" his re-election, quite a few of us believe a successful STV ballot was lost to infractions during the voting process.

There were solid reasons to take that vote again or accept the choice that the considerable majority voted for.

I don't know whether Bill Good has expressed a view on this latter.

Oh for pete's sakes, let's not turn this one into another STV forum. ENOUGH ALREADY. The point of this forum is to discuss Rafe's posted article, which has to do not only with the tired old dog of SnoozeTalk 980, but the entire idea of investigative journalism and true open line radio not just socially engineered and contrived open line.

Okay, dgiVista.org, so Rafe is siding with the left at this time on this one regarding the corporate media. But he is a rude and crude demagogue who served as a lapdog to the corporate media for years.

Maybe he would forget sometimes that he was their bitch. Maybe in histrionic delusions he thought he could bite the corporate hand that fed him and still keep his job at CKNW. But now he is here; "writing" (at about a grade 6 level) monologues for The Tyee which are full appeals to base emotional reactions. Maybe those work on the radio but in print they just read like tar paper.

"I look back at some of the issues I was involved in -- the Vander Zalm years where the sales people went to 'NW manager Ron Bremner and told him they wouldn't be able to sell advertising if he didn't shut Rafe Mair up."

Did the editor at The Tyee edit this sentence or was this Rafe? This guy spent years behind a mike, editors. He doesn't know how to use a colon, a hyphen, a semi-colon, nor a comma. Please help him. It shows a lack of respect of the written word and to other writers on the Tyee to have this demagogue's monologues appear in print.

He even admits in this piece that he is still bitter about his dismissal. What a child. He end with, "And that makes me sad. Very sad." What was this article about? The depressive side of his histrionics with a few reminiscences? He mentions anger, bitterness, sadness, hot and coldness, paranoia, fear, love, and gloats about libel. That is a lot of emotional garbage for one article.

He is the worst writer at The Tyee. Ordinary freelance writers would not be able to get away with such tripe.

I cannot financially support The Tyee if they carry on with Rafe. What kind of audience do you hope to attract from Rafe?

You know, famed cognitve psychologist George Lakoff writes some good articles on media analysis (unlike Rafe's bitter whinging) where he describes the framing of ideas. In general, he describes how the right does a good job in framing its policies in terms of moral values that fit the "strong father" type, and so he proposes that the left ought to counter this with a "nurturing parent" type. So, I am wondering where would Rafe into this? Definately not the nurturing parent type; he's a crude and rude demagogue. And he's not really a strong father since he whines on about stuff that a strong father would just deny. I guess he is something of a borderline then.

You're absoluutely right "nemesis" and "kegler", I should not have brought BC-STV into this. I apologize.

But CKNW continues to lose my faith as a bonafide talk station. I feel that a good example of this is bringing in a national show like Adler instead of giving the job to perfectly qualified local hosts. I want my information as local as I can get it, and Mr. Adler, who sounds too much like Rush Lumbaugh, just doesn't do it for me.

Guess I'll have to go back to CBC ... at least in the afternoon.

And "asher", I'd suggest you find an editor to correct grammatical and spelling errors of your own before you start criticizing others for theirs.

Hey, I am just making comments. I am not getting paid to write articles. If I were, I wouild take care.

September 5, 2005

ROBBINS Sce Research (1998)

Press Release

Vancouver CKNW (AM980) announced that ‘there is said to be “a lot of dismayed members of the Non-Partisan Association” after they received a letter mailed out to them by “Vancouver Mayoralty hopeful Christy Clark.”

The problem arises due to the fact that Christy Clark wrote her letter on NPA letterhead, which she should not have had in her possession at the time of the mailing.

Although Christy Clark was approved last Saturday, September 2, 2005 the letter was mailed out Friday, September 1, 2005, “the day before she was approved by the NPA Board”.

Christy Clark had filed her nomination papers only two days before on Wednesday August 30, 2005.

Sources have informed ROBBINS that NPA Christy Clark was provided with NPA membership lists prior to the Friday, September 1, 2005 date of mailing.

The NPA claims to keep its letterhead and membership lists under judicious lock and key. How is it possible that Ms. Clark received membership lists so quickly in order to organize the mail-out on that Friday? Doesn’t this provide additional speculation that the NPA is actually the farm team of the BC Liberal Party, and not an independent civic organization like it claims to be?

This news announcement strongly suggests that the NPA should suspend Christy Clark’s candidacy temporarily until such time as all of these outstanding questions are answered lest they lose all of the credibility they have earned over the past three years doing outreach and community work.

Glen P. Robbins
(604) 942-3757

-30-

The ROBBINS Sce Research organization also found the missing ballots from the Tim Stevenson/Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Burrard provincial race.

Kegler,

You wrote:

"Oh for pete's sakes, let's not turn this one into another STV forum. ENOUGH ALREADY. The point of this forum is to discuss Rafe's posted article, which has to do not only with the tired old dog of SnoozeTalk 980, but the entire idea of investigative journalism and true open line radio not just socially engineered and contrived open line."

LIGHTEN UP ALREADY.

Unless we are a bunch of self-absorbed jerks, and unlees this is a "socially engineered and contrived" message board, posters will respond to each others comments.

Had the investigative journalism that you wrote of HAPPENED, I don't doubt that the STV ballot would have been tested again or passed in its favor.

From our polling perspective we would characterize ourselves (and have been quoted in the Vancouver Courier) as 'Structural Conservatives.' This doesn't mean that an activist spirit isn't important. Both left and right governments and journalists alike have shown themselves to be pretty esoteric in policy after a few years.

These 'blogsites' are like near anarchistic editorial boards, or a kind of rugby scrum, sometimes you aren't sure whose knee just cut you open, but you are bleeding nonetheless, (and oddly keep coming back for more).

Like diving off the high dive-Fun.

asher, my comments were only applicable to where mair is lately. i have no intention of defending who he has been in the past.

i had little tolerance for him as a socred and for most of his early radio days.

How perceptive, Asher, regarding one of the longest threads for some time.

And thanks for idiotcracy Ursus. At first I thought it was mispeling.