The sea lice of fish farms, the clearcuts, the climate change, the cancer epidemics and the million stress related illnesses, the truckers's strike, the foodbank lines, substance abuse, etc, etc, are the results of screwed up, fraudulent and self destructive economic theories. Period!!!!!

Until the human race comes to grips with the fact that all human activities cause unwanted reactions, there's no hope for improvement. There ain't no "win-win" in economics, because all economic activities are causing reactions in ecological systems, that may show up immediately, or a hundred years from now, but they always do.

This brings on the question: "Are we not permitted to do anything to improve our lives?" We can do a lot of things that would really improve our lives, as long as we realize the consequences and take the necessary precautions not to move too far outside the Earth's natural self balancing and recovery potential.

As long as we go along with the present fraudulent definitions of economic efficiency, GDP, growth and productivity, we'll be going downhill from one disaster into another until some new Stone Age. Ed Deak, Big Lake.

It's scary that we are now talking about no salmon on the Fraser River. I, for one, hope it is a conspiracy theory. One of the problems with the fish farms and wild fishery is that the provincial and federal governments seem happy to keep passing the buck to each other.

Now Fiat Lux, I do not know what your problem is but my friends and family here in Vancouver are all doing very well, with a high standard of living. Why? Because we made choicesthat led to this outcome. Sure, everybody has low points in one's life but hard work and adaptation bring success, not blaming governemnts. Further, the REAL WORKING PEOPLE I know here are doing waaaaaay better than they were ten years ago.

You can certainly improve your life if you are willing to take control of it.

There you go again, Working Man, spouting bullshit. REAL WORKING PEOPLE, eh? Does that mean people doing real work, or real people?

Who do you think you are? What about real old people? What about real damaged people? How about real disabled people? How about my friend who got a poorly assembled crane dropped on his real head at work one day? Poor choice, that right?

You just cannot make the real world anywhere near simple and cartoon like enough to support your nitwit theories just by saying it's so.

You social awareness seems to rest at about the level of Homer Simpson's. May you never become one of those you shower with such disrespect. I just don't think you would be able to handle the life.

Working man........ I've spent 50 years working in 4 countries, qualified to train apprentices and to teach night school. Never collected a penny of UI in my life, laid off once, then became self employed in BC in 1957. Never had a holiday, hardly weekends. My wife and I have carved our ranch out of the bush in the past 26 years. I can build houses, install the electicity and plumbing, build all the furniture in any style, right up to heavily carved Louis XVl, paint the pictures for the walls and carve all the sculptures. Since we "retired" 13 years ago, we get up at 6 and go to bed at 11, working every day 7 days a week.
Right now I'm building a twin axle stock trailer from scratch, painting a series of pictures and in my spare time, eating economics professors for lunch. What's more, I can prove every word and am not hiding behind a silly nom de plume, snapping at ankles walking by.

I hope, you can beat my record and one day may even learn to read.

If you think the life of working people has improved in the past 10 years it is because you haven't seen and worked in Canada in the 50s, and 60s and haven't seen a Canada and BC without daily growing foodbank lines. Ed Deak, Big Lake.

Question-- When is a bribe not a bribe?

Answer---- When it's a political contribution.

Mr. Mair, I'm beginning to really like the way you talk. Any chance of documenting the actual amounts and dates of contributions, and comparing those to the decisions made by the recipients?

It's just, I think corruption really ought to be exposed. It's just too dangerous to let it slide.

The 50's and 60's were a result of the post war boom, which was the largest consumer extravagnaza in the history of capitalism but only for a few nations, our included. That boom gave Canada the social programmes it has now buy delivering the tax base to provide it. It could not last and did not, the collapse of Bretton Woods in 1973 was the beginning of the end.

I am really glad of your accomplishments and abilities but the ecomomy has changed; no longer can undeucated people demand high salaries. People need skills, which our post secondary instutions can provide for people who have the drive. I also do not buy the "I am poor becuase of _______" argument, I hardly come from a great background and certainly not a wealthy one but I have built myself a very nice life. If I can, others can, too.

The fact is the NDP is locked, mentally, in the boom that I alluded to of the 50's and 60's. Until it can adapt to the year 2005 it will not form governments anymore. Have a look at Tony Blair if you want a model.

Times have changed buy socialists have not. They are really the most conservative people out there. No matter what socialist-conservatives think, do or say, we cannot roll back the clock sixty or so years.

The economy has changed in the early 70s. because big money decided that people had too much freedom, so they hired twisted brains like Zbigniew Brzesinski and Milton Friedman to come up with a new economic system that will divert benefits from the majority into the pockets of a self appointed ruling class.

The name of this fraudulent game is "neoclassical market economics", originating with people like Friedrich von Hayek of the Austrian School, who brought it to the Chicago School of Economics. From there it was forced on the whole world by hired guns, through the buying up of university departments, political parties, taking over the control of the media with more success than the nazis and communists ever been capable of. This criminal theory is now destituting and killing more people and destroying more resources on a long term daily basis and the death camps of Stalin, Hitler and Mao put together. A child dies of starvation every 5 seconds. 850,000 Candians live of foodbanks. Is this your 10 years of improvement?

Bretton Woods did not die in 1973. It was killed by the conspiracy of multinationals, like the Bilderbergers, the Trilateral Commission, World Economic Forum, World Bank, International Monetary Fund and lately by the FTA, NAFTA etc. etc. All crimoinal organizations, designed to push people under the command of a self appointed ruling class.

Under the present system a few Western banks are permitted to "create" unlimited amounts of imaginary capital out of fresh air, which is then used to colonize their own peoples and take control of countries, depriving them from the benefits of the ownership of their own resources.

Disclosing this has nothing to do with "socialism" or any other "-ism", or any harberained ideology, but simple logic and facts. Back in the 50s and 60s corporations have made good profits and their executives good salaries, but nowhere near the obscenities they're stealing from people's pockets now to gorge on undeserved luxuries, while billions starve.

You'd better get your history and economic facts straight before you try to take on anybody with shopworn nonsense like "today's economy has changed". Of course, when thieves are permitted and encouraged to run rampant, blessed by our politicians. Ed Deak, Big Lake.

Give up on the "loved ones" already Working Man?

Boy, you've displayed about as much credibility as a truant parent today fellow.

Now you're trying to spin economics into history? Wow.

if war is the great boom as "working man" suggests then the usa should have been in a perpetual boom and at the crest right now. and canada, by all rights, going by the same logic, should be sharing the crest of that wave as a stalwart adjunct of the same military-industrial project.

the dismantling of bretton woods was a conscious decision undertaken because it hindered profiting of the capitalist-imperialist class. the same reasoning underlies the dismantling of social programs. there has been a redistribution of wealth and wealth isnt being redistributed to the working class!!

Do REAL WORKING PEOPLE include all the dotcom millionaires that made a ton of money and produced absolutely nothing 10 years ago, Working Man? Just a thought.

Can anyone out there tell em what a sea lice does to harm wild salmon ? Do they bite? Do they infect ? Nobody has ever aswered this question. Can you ?

Ron Erwin asked if anyone could tell him what a sea lice (sic) does to harm wild salmon. Sea lice create lesions on the surface of the fish which compromise the fish's ability to maintain its salt-water balance. When infection rates are high enough, the lice feed on the fish faster than the fish can feed, which means the lice literally eat the fish alive. Adult salmon can normally withstand sea lice infection, but smolts (juveniles) cannot handle sea lice in any numbers because they don't yet have the body mass or resistance needed.

The infected smolts that have been found in the Broughton Archipelago have been literally covered in sea lice, a situation that is normally never found in the wild. Normally sea lice die off when the adult salmon that carry them return to freshwater to spawn, as sea lice only survive in salt water. However, the farmed fish in saltwater netpens all along the migration routes in the Broughton provide a perfect overwintering environment for sea lice. With hundreds of thoussands of farmed fish in the netpens, sea lice are able to proliferate. Wild salmon smolts en route to the sea must pass by these farms. Independent researchers have found the wild smolts to be heavily infected with sea lice once they pass the netpens, to a level that is lethal for the young fish.

When it comes to conspiracies I am usually a skeptic but I have taken to heart the saying:

"Just because you think everyone is out to get you doesn't mean you're paranoid."

After having Raif beat the farmed salmon issue into my head over the past year (since I stumbled upon his radio show and became hooked), I am running out of reasons to stay a skeptic on the issue.

Besides the inevitable tirade that is to come, about global conspiracies, a Martian plot to overthrow food supplies and what have you, does anyone (or Raif himself) have a reason or theory WHY governments would turn blind over mounting evidence that fish farming is bloody catastrophic?

Governments have been known to make the odd (said tongue-in-cheek) mistake and even some plain idiotic moves, but they are usually based on some fundamentally simple idea or belief. In addition, some particularly stupid choices made by governments and government officials have spouted from but a few reasons: greed being chief among them.

But where's the payoff? I know I'm missing something and I rather like how Raif has, over time, tightened the noose around this debacle, but I truly am missing what I need to wrap it all up in a neat package: the 'why'.

A generation or so from now will think us all idiots for destroying our enviroment. Campbell & Co. should be tried as enviromental terrorists and gaoled!

...not to mention living off the largesse of resources extracted from someone else's bioregion, utilizing non-renewable hydrocarbons to transport them to Vancouver.

Get off your high-horse Working Man. Unless you're a very special breed of person your Lower Mainland lifestyle is not inherently sustainable. Please enlighten us all about how you're giving back while you're 'taking control'?

Last year I attended a seminar at the Georgia Basin Conference which presented findings that the pre-spawning mortality rates for salmon in the Fraser River for 2 years in a row had been close to 100%. That means, that fishermen see millions of salmon swimming by but they die before they spawn. So, no young ones for the coming years. I have seen no major paper reporting this. Does anybody have more information on what is happening this year?
I think the station doing the research was in Mission.

Laurie; How many sea lice on an adult salmon is too much ?
Why would farmrd fish be sitting in their pen over winter ? Wouln't they be sold ASAP so the farmer could get paid ?
I read skeptical accounts of the science around this "independant" experiment around the Broughton Archipelago.
Has anyone done DNA samples on the sea lice on the farmed salmon is the same lice that are on Wild Salmon ? Is this cooncidental or causal ? Remember , in Australia that shark attacks go up with the increase of consumtion of cream.

writerdave,

You asked, "Where's the payoff?"

There may have been ignorance in the beginning but there is now, and has been for some time, strong evidence that many fish farms in open tidal waters have been, and are, damaging to the wild stocks.

I believe that attacking the organized workers in commercial fishing (whom the Socred/Liberal governments saw as a group strongly, and actively, electorally opposed) took priority over maintaining the natural fish habitat in a sustainable fashion. Some might even call it sabotage.

It won't be news to you that that there are those among our elected who may be bought. That buying may even involve more than donations to election campaigns.

Given the thousands of miles of Canada's tidal shorelines, I am outraged that a fee is required from me to cast a rod into the surf.

Those fees have gone primarily to maintain a bloated bureaucracy as it has overseen the near-death of cod-fishing in the East and severe depletion of natural salmon stocks in the West. Canada's Great Lakes have suffered equally.

Whether trout or salmon, fish farms must be totally contained with all exchanged water being filtered of contaminents.

Ron Erwin - Sea lice kill the smolts by suckung the life blood out of them. It is well documented, but no, you are too confused by your right wing 'I'm all right Jack' attitude.

Our present way of life is in dire jepordy as the so called 'free market' ecconomy devours precious resources to feed an ever expanding world ecconomy. Trouble is, resources are finite and when in short supply, what then?Future generations will ridicule us for being blind and greedy idiots.

A revolution of some sort will come and the outcome will be very dangerous as present political systems will fall. The future is very bleak.

I'm sure the creatures and plants of the Taku water-shed are comforted that the DFO, with it's outstanding record in protecting our coastal fishstocks, was part of the recent rubberstamping of a sinister mining companie's project universally decried by local bands and environmentalists.
Also don't forget that the objective and science oriented senior politicians of the provincial liberal goverment were involved in the "stringent" environmental assessment process aswell.
In other words the Taku just got double teamed.
The only thing missing was the funky channel 147 soundtrack by Isaac Hayes.

Grmpy; Is there one of these dead smolts in a jar somewhere ? I doubt it. And what does examining this issue have to do with right or left wing ?

writerdave, try this out

The government (and DFO) are totally supportive of anything the fishfarms do. Sea lice do kill smolts and in some cases adult salmon. Sea lice will wipe out salmon runs.
Fishermen will go bankrupt and have to give up there licences. No more wild salmon fishery. Fish farms will multiply by the thousands to feed the masses. Then since there no more salmon runs the way will be open for big business to dam up all the rivers because ther will be no complaints of killing the runs.
It all fits.

writerdave,

you asked "where's the payoff"
re: fishfarms vs. wild stocks
The payoff is for the multinationals to maximize profits by eliminating the competition.
A byproduct of the killing of wildfish stocks is control of the masses through eliminating public access to naturally grown fishfood stocks.
The same process is well underway with genetically modified food production, another way for multinationals to control food production.
The commodification and corporate control of freshwater and it's distribution may be next.
Sound like paranoia or some food for thought?

A few action plans,

1) Don't buy and eat the crap, ask at stores and restaurants if the fish is farmed , if it is, register your complaint and don't patronize the store.

2) Join action groups that target farmed fish sellers, I think wild Canada, they target stores like Safeway etc.

2) Use the courts, take the fish farms to court over using slice and other harmful chemicals. Their must be regulations
over what can be used. Sue the DFO over the use of these chemicals.

3) Get involved and be creative as to how to stop these crooks.

Oh and everyone, please don' t discourage Ron Irwin from eating farmed fist. Tell him its good for him.
Lots of hot dogs and farmed fish.

Farmed and dangerous activist network. check out the linke.
and have some fun.

http://www.farmedanddangerous.org/activists/index.html

The amount of work and effort that has gone into protesting what everyone (who has paid attention to it) already knows, but in particularly Rafe's work on these fish farms, is truly incredible, when you realize at the end that in fact the government doesn't care, and won't do anything. They are banking on the idea that there aren't enough people ready to aggregate around the problem, and ultimately to stop what is happening. The only thing that will remove those fish farms is structural sabotage, (which we aren't advocated, but simply using to make a point of the real circumstances here).

We recently spent some time with some monitors (and others) with BC Ministry of Environment staff who will tell you to a person that the matter of fish farms being sewage sites is not even up for debate. The debate (from the BC Liberal government side) is laughable. This is most unfortunate when you find out that there are some very good improvements being made in the Province to monitor the environment, and to get more staff on the ground doing the kind of work which is not only essential but necessary to sustaining the well being of the environment in our province.

What the fish farm ordeal has become is some sort of sad ugly commentary on the type of politics that makes BC a 'sick place', that of 100% denial and deceit, rather than one that is positive and pro-active about all aspects of the environment without cowtowing to every conceivable whimsy (though BC will continue to have to improve on the environmental account because like Hollywood movie stars-how we look is our bread and butter-and believe me people are watching us more and more from Boston to Norway.)

As simplistic and naive as this sounds, it would be truly wonderful if the Campbell government would just say to the fish farmers, look we can't do it this way, its wrong, and I am a Premier with a concious and principles. It is my last term in office, and I want to do something I can actually be proud to have linked to any legacy I leave behind.

This is doubtful when our Premier is a man who probably doesn't actually 'get this stuff'. He is a man locked in a previous time, and isn't a person of vision in our opinion.

Also, this is a doubtful outcome when most of those people who are supposed to bring pressure to bear on the Premier in these circumstances (mainstream press; Adriane Carr-why is she having 'meetings' with him-I liked her better when she was strapped to a tree), are operating for the money, power, attention or other unfulfilled child stuff and dont' have sufficient principles to care.

Also, as I travel from time to time on the social circuit and listen to some 'quasi-confused' soccer moms and their quasi spineless husbands talk about what they bought for themselves or their kids, and even where they were when they discoverd that the government is pretty much a scam and they can't do anything about it,which tranlates to "who gives a shit I've got mine". (The difficulty is that people from other countries have figured out that Canada is the world's doormat-tell us were nice and you can have anything you want).

Until these people stand up like Rafe and some others have done and get a backbone, people like Gordon Campbell etc. will do as they please, and nothing will ever change. That is just how it is.

i'm guessing rafe was a salmon in a previous life or plans to be one in his next life.

i wish he would get a new topic. we all know he thinks fish farms are evil, yet he continues to preach to the choir.

writerdave

Joe Badaracco, in the film The Corporation, stated that "everything should be owned". Wild salmon stocks are not owned,and do not recognize international boundaries, and are subject to catch by, well, just about everyone! Much too haphazard.......ergo....

Oh, billy pilgrim, give it a rest. How can he be preaching to the choir when there are buffleheads trolling his columns? You aren't part of the choir. Ron and Working man sure aren't part of the choir.

Rafe isn't usually someone whose opinion I respect. However, where the net cages are concerned, I agree completely. They'll kill off the wild fishery, then they'll bring in the feedlots arse to appetite, elbow to ankle, with little "roads" left between so the supplies can be delivered...the stink will be horrible...the sport fishery and attendant tourist dollars will be gone but those in government whose families have interests in fish feedlots will do fine, just fine Jack, thanx for asking...and more and more and more of our food will be controlled by corporations who have no allegiance to anyone or anything except profit, profit, profit. Your grandchildren will spit on you for what you in your deliberate cavalier insolent disregard for independent research have caused to happen to a one vibrant and bountiful coast.

And I'll be in jail because more and more and more DIRECT ACTION seems like the only option.

These fuckers have slandered Alexandra Morton and lied about the entire industry. Amazing that Scotland, Ireland and all of Scandinavia have been wrecked by net cages.

And now they're genetically modifying the fekkin things, why they can get an Atlantic Salmon to grow to amazing size in virtually no time flat. Of course it takes twentyfive pounds of "trash fish" processed into pellets to get one pound of genetically modified chemically enhanced superfish but what the hell, go for it, full speed ahead and damn the consequences.

You really should be ashamed of yourself.

Go find another bridge, troll, before we spray the one you're lurking under with some of the shit they use in the fish industry to control sea lice and rampant infection.

fuckin' morons, I tell you, I'm getting too old to put up with them.

Jesus, Raif, this is FOUR TIMES I've agreed with you. And for years I was convinced you were a drunken disgrace, a womanizer and a fucking idiot.

Maybe I should go for a medical checkup, my serotonin levels might be a bit off.........

Anne Cameron:

I think this is what it's boiling down to, and not only about farmed salmon.........

Classy post Anne. Where's the editor?

Anne Cameron, it was very good to read you here again and despite what our nemesis (he dreams) pronounces, you are a breath of fresh and honest air.

I realize Rafe was a flash point way back when for many a good BCer who didn't buy the Socred story.

But sometimes you just have to suck it up and say 'an enemy of my enemy is my friend'.

And I too worry the natural wild salmon stocks are being allowed to die off for a number of not very nice reasons including the economic benefit of a lot of Liberal financdial supporters.

Once lost they won't be back other than as an oddity on a handful of rivers where they will struggle to even keep balance in their withered populations.

Boy, it's strange how so many of these neocons seem to disappear for the weekend and then reappear full of piss and vinegar when the new workweek begins.

http://www.yptenc.org.uk/docs/factsheets/env_facts/extinction.html
17th Century
By the middle of the century there were about 450 million humans on earth and 7 animal species became extinct.

18th Century
550 million humans on earth and 11 more species became extinct by mid-century.

19th Century
By 1850 the human population had increased to 900 million and 27 species were lost.

20th / 21st Century
To date there are just over 6000 million people on earth. So far this century we have lost 68 species of animals.

The bison were actively hunted as a means of depopulating the American West of it's native residents, as well as making way for domesticated species, which required fences, somthing bison didn't "respect". The average person likely thought it a good plan, if they thought of it at all. The salmon, cod, and 90% of big fish stocks that are "on the verge of extinction" ( http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/05/0515_030515_fishdecline.html )
are likely not given much thought by anyone living inland of coastal waterways. This is what the corporate "psychopaths" are counting on ( http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0743247442/commondreams-20/ref%3Dnosim/102-5585705-4028927 ) and it has worked up to now.

Nemesis: what, the word "****" bothers you. The destruction of the coast doesn't, the lies don't, the slander aimed at Alexandra Morton doesn't, the rampant corruption doesn't, but the word "****" forces you to your knees, tears welling from your eyes?

Tender little fellow, aren't you?

Clam and oyster tenures are going to be another area of scandal and dispute in a few years. The re-introduction of the otter isn't going to happen easily. Already there are areas around Esperanza and Tahsis inlets where all the rocks have been stripped of mussels, barnacles, etc. and as the food supply here diminishes the otter will move on, impacting futher areas. Right now the cute little fur balls are pretty much restricted to one area but they are breeding and multiplying at an incredible rate. They've started predating the manila clams, now... and that's a commercial species, the clam diggers are getting very upset...

When the first feedlots began to appear some people tried to get effective and enforced controls. Bafflegab and euphemism from the industry and government flowed almost as thick as the crud coming from the cages. And here we are twenty years later and the filth runs unabated. Twenty-one species of groundfish have been negatively impacted, wild stocks are threatened, the sea lice are thriving, and more and more antibiotics and other powerful chemicals are being used. There is huge money involved now, and powerful interests are involved. There is some worry that even if we could get the floating cages moved or removed we've allowed them to harm the ocean so much it will take generations to undo the damage and some areas may not ever fully recover.

But Nemesis wants the editor to scold me for using the word ****?

Strange priorities.

People need food to live. Farmed salmon is high in protien and haelthy omega fats.
The postings above are emotional and illogical.
Another reason to believe the eco-frauds want mankind to starve to death.
Why do these eco-terrorists hate people so much ?
I know why, it's because they hate themselves.

Don't let some people's ignorance get you you down. How can you argue with a sociopath? They have no soul, no moral conscious. Look at who's running the whitehouse and our own province. They're insects and will devour the entire earth without hesitation.
If you challenge one of them to a fair fight to atone for the damage they've done, they'll scurry away like cockroaches when a light comes on.
Pay them no mind.

cameron tells me to give it a rest? how often do i post on this site? very rarely!

cameron lives on this site and considers herself to be to the oracle of knowledge. her and rafe could be the next penn and teller. please note my lack of profanity.

Ron Erwin: Dead smolts with sea lice, there is plenty about, maybe you do not want to look. You seem to be a member of the 'Flat Earth Society' or a paid shill for the fish farmers.

Ever heard of BSE or Mad Cow disease? no/yes? Let me tell you it is real and was spread by sheep, which had dies of Scrappie (a form of BSE) being rendered to protien and fed to the beef stock. Trouble was, the rendering process did not kill the BSC and it infected the population.

The farmers & government in the UK at first, did not accept this, but now it is well documented and since the late 80's, animals infected with BSC/scrappie, etc. are cremated.

Guess what the farmed fish are eating, rendered protien from dead animals which have died of many diseases, including BSE. Sea lice, infected fishes, make farmed salmon a poor product wgich one should eat at ones own risk.

Rafe is quite right on this issue and should continue fighting the good fight against our corrupt provincial and federal governments.

This is one of the best examples of junk science since global warming. I don't get it, why do people look for trouble where there isn't any ? Are they that bored with the truth that the need to invent junk science to justify their goofy views.
Millions of people are starving to death and we are worried about a few innocent sea lice.
Give your head a shake and put out the joint.

Ron Erwin; you are a very dangerous man, i can go so far to say, you are evil. You live in a world where your preconceived notions are considered fact and if the 'real' science doesn't fit, it's considered junk science.

The Americans are now coming to grips with global warming as good old 'Jeb', Bushes young bro, and governor of Florida is now a believer. Warmer ocean water is spawning more and more powerful hurricanes. So many now, that if the same frequency of storms happen as last year, the state will be bankrupted in about 10 to 15 years.

By the way I don't smoke.

So RonE, you are saying that its okay for the fish to live with "a few innocent sea lice".How many lice (head or body, take your pick) are you willing to live with feeding off of you?

You said it " if the real science doesn't fit "
So true, that's what breeds JUNK SCIENCE.
Tell me, how many huricanes did Florida experience in the year 1605 ?
What a bunch of crap this is. We have only been recording weather for 100 years. What were the trends before that ?
Real scientists think it was warmer before any industrial revolution.
Talk about dangerous, your views scare me to death.

Can you request Tyee to block posters for stupidity?
Dear Ron Erwins Mom:
Please check your purse, no doubt Ron has been using your credit cards on the internet again. Please follow through with your threats to send him to military school, this is what he secretly wants anyway. He looks forward mostly to the hazing rituals.

Just the facts clubofrome, when you can't deal with facts you default to insults. This is a method of hiding ones own intellectual weakness.
How much rain fell in Spain in the year 1605 ?
Could you tell the difference between a wild and farmed fish under a mictoscope ? I doubt it buudy boy.

You really are a strange one Erwin. I think Ron that you are the last person who should be criticizing someone for his or her tactics in debate. Constantly do you reject people’s arguments without a counter argument while at the same time stating that they should “accept the facts” without actually ever providing any. Rejecting all of the evidence of global warming because we don’t know how much rain fell in spain in 1605? That’s unbelievably weak Erwin, even for you. I get the point that you’re trying to illustrate but you fall under the fallacy of oversimplification. Look at climate trends Erwin, and I’m going to leave that for you to do – you know, let you actually put some effort into supporting your claims of junk science. Furthermore, SCIENCE, Ron, has been able to tell us climate patterns well back beyond the advent of weather stations. And one last thing, buddy boy, one doesn’t need a “mictoscope” (sic) to tell the difference between farmed and wild fish. All one needs to do is a simple taste test: I’ll take wild any day…

Please change your name to Ron "Obvious"
You are comedic relief here at best. I enjoyed the episode where you attempted to jump across the English Channel with a load of bricks attached to your back! Funny stuff. The resemblance is uncanny! The shady manager/promoter who puts you up to these stunts, like digging to China, is so appropriate now. You standing at attention, listening eagerly to everything the US says then you go out and try and launch yourself into orbit by flapping your arms because the US says if you do it hard enough you can fly. Do you write all your own material? Like when you said 99% of the Earths resources were still available. Just plain sillyness Ron. Not sure what a mictoscope is but I'm sure that your one brain cell and an invertebrates' will also appear the same.

Club; I am quite comfortable in my skin so don't go to sleep at night worrying about me. Lets be clear about this. You seem to think the USA is bad and I think it's good. Is that okay ? Or should I read The New York Times more closely so I get braiwashed into thinking like 8 to 14 % of the people that still believe this crap.

I think you are sheep number 378 when I go to sleep at night. It amazes me that anyone debates you period, as noted, you lack any credibility whatsoever. The biggest problem I see in your learning disability is inability to listen. Without that key component you cannot learn. Sure you hear, or read but you don't really take it in. It could be your cult doesn't allow change. You fear it don't you Ron... the world changing, faster and faster each day..... gay marriage and next decriminilzed pot....what's the world coming to Ron....? Keeps you up at night doesn't it? Those voices and the lithium of course....

Ron, you call it "junk science" (predictable) but you haven't been able to debunk the science. Show me something that debunks the independent research and I'll listen.

I hadn’t considered a dam on the Fraser I thought more of the oil field development the province seems to want to do. Possibly the province wants to do both. It is not just people who will feel the lack of salmon, eagles, bears, whales, the forest it self all need the salmon. I fish a native food fishery on the Fraser and last summer when the water was hot and low the bears even quit eating salmon. The salmon were dying with holes in their skins. At the fishery commission meeting in Kamloops in Feb. Fish with holes in their skins wasn’t a concern .The report to the federal government didn’t mention skin holes at all. I spoke at the fish commission hearing about the holes and they wanted me to sit down again quick.

Verso; just Google " global warming junk science ". You do kmow how to Google don't you ? I am sure you could also Google " salmon farming junk science " as well.
Or read the book called The Sceptical Enviromenalist.
And Club I am prepared to listen to the answer of my question, how much did it rain in Spain in 1605 ?

The rain in Spain that fell mainly on the plain? Or the Precipitation accumulation that fell over the entire nation?

Yes there are hungry people in the world. Salmon is not going to be their salvation. Salmon is, and always has been, one of the most expensive ways of delivering protein to the human body. Twentyfive pounds of other types of fish and "meat and meat by-products" are required for each pound of salmon. Only the wealthy can afford this.

It seems so bizarre that someone who claims concern for the hungry of the world would also support so strongly the USA which has caused so much of the hunger and misery.

Globalization will increase the famines, and the USA will continue to invade any nation with anything it decides it wants. Right now it's oil but before long it will be water and we'll be on the menu.

Snide isn't smart. Neither is specious and sophomoric blethering on about how an increasing body of proof isn't proof at all.

But it is impossible to take even the biggest hammer and use it to pound knowledge into a block of wood.

Ron, when you decide to take your postings serious and wish to debate like an adult let us now. Until then you are back on ignore...

Daer Anne; Thanyou for your thoughful writings. Where did you learn all this knowledge, Cuba ?
To call the USA anything but generous, helpful, free, benevolent and altruistic is misleading your followers. They will someday realize this, you cannot spread enough B.S. to cover the truth.

Ron, PLEASE , eat farmed fish, its good for you. Maybe your Jesus can turn one fish into a million when we run out LOL. you know the story. Maybe Jesus should have just farmed the fish. Sorry if your now talking in tongues, go shop at Wal mart with the other mutants , your feel better.

Bye the way , if you see a stupid google ad promoting something like Fish Farming, click into the site maybe 20 times.
Its pay per click, they have to pay about 40 cents per click.

Hey Ron... eating farmed salmon is not a good option for you. The farmers inject red dye into the fish and you pay extra for that. Also, the red dye looks quite sickly if it runs onto your plate. Farmed fish require protien to grow. The source of this protien is other fish stocks and requires more fish protien than is obtained with the finished product, the farmed fish. Therefore, you need to catch more fish to get less and the product itself is tampered with to entice you into buying it. hmm... dinner time at Ron's must be... well I'm scared to imagine.

Stew, I am sure Jesus can save you. Lets have a fish farm vs. fresh salmon Pepsi/Coke challenge. I bet the results would be that you cannot taste the difference.
I hear Wal-Mart is hiring if you need a job and you probably do. You will never make as much money as they will pay you.

I don't need a microscope to tell salmon apart, Ron. I just look at the fins and if the fins are missing I check the fat to see if it has been colored. Anyone can do so your doubts are not based on reality.

Anne Cameron writes:

"Nemesis: what, the word "****" bothers you. The destruction of the coast doesn't, the lies don't, the slander aimed at Alexandra Morton doesn't, the rampant corruption doesn't, but the word "****" forces you to your knees, tears welling from your eyes?"

"Tender little fellow, aren't you?"

Now, ain't that the truth...and never finer said, Anne.

Also reveals the real problem with censorship and the language police...Anne nails what is really profane... and it ain't the word "****".

The point is, Ron, why bother setting up a taste challenge. The farmed fish merely change one form of fish protien into another form. Protien itself is lost in the process. And we end up with an inferior product. In other words, you have simply been brainwashed by clever marketing into believing you are getting added value from the farmer's efforts.

"Verso; just Google " global warming junk science ". You do know how to Google don't you ? I am sure you could also Google " salmon farming junk science " as well."

Ron, it's obvious you haven't even done this yourself. Your position on fish farming is predictable and reactionary. If you could debunk the science around the independents, you would. Since you can't, you just post more noise.

"Or read the book called The Skeptical Enviromenalist."

As for "The Skeptical Enviromenalist", I'll pass thanks. I've read enough of his essays, and critiques of them, to know his selective use of science -- posing as informed debate -- is dubious at best.

Verso; And you don't use selective science ?
If anything is dubious it's the arguments from eco-fraulds who's only goal is to ruin our economy. They don't give a rat's *** about the enviroment. They are simply enemies of our way of life, hoping it crumbles so they can provide us with Socialism. Yuck

Curious thing about "our way of life" and economy, gov't and even people, RonE, is that without this planets healthy existance all will cease to exist.
Whereas, if the "way of life", economy, gov't and people ceased to exist this planet would survive just fine.Simplified this means we need the planet more than it needs us.
So showing respect and prudence in our stewardship of this planet for our childern and future generations is only common sense. Now, if you want to put forth some solid arguements in favour of fish farms backed with equally solid facts, I, for one am willing to listen. You know how to do that, don't you? You with the soo supreme intellect should find this easy, doncha think?

Ron, I just can't take your opinions on this matter seriously. You only want to speak in black and white terms. Example,

"if anything is dubious it's the arguments from eco-fraulds who's only goal is to ruin our economy. They don't give a rat's *** about the enviroment."

Are there any environmentalists you can agree with, or that you believe are motivated by a genuine concern for the planet? If you were to address this/these issues with some specific examples of bad science, or offer some evidence of ulterior motives we could actually have a debate.

You seem to have an (irrational?) problem with all environmentalists -- no matter what the science or argument presented to you. It really undermines your credibility as a poster.

Just a note: weather statistics are probably available for rain in Spain in 1605, the only problem is we have to find it.

Monestaries, military departments, etc., all kept weather records, most of which are long stored away and there isn't enough resources (man power) to find them. Beleive it or not, there is a complete day by day account of the Spanish Armada, including costs, weather etc., in store in Madrid. Japanese accounts of a tidal wave in the 1600's, to almost the exact time of the event, has given experts in North America an exact time of the last 'big one' earthquake to hit the Pacific North West!

The information is there, if we care to look.

Funny thing about the anti environmentalist hysteria of so called " right wing conservatives" is that the worst environmental destructors in history have been the so called "left wing communists" and now the so called "right wing capitalists".

Of course, talking from personal experience with both, always in the name of allegedly opposing, but in reality very similar economic theories. In other words, there's very little difference between them. Both are preaching "freedom" and both use it as unlimited powers in the hands of the same ruling classes, with the environment getting into the way of their idiotic plans. Ed Deak, Big Lake.

Man-do we need a citizens assembly for bloggers
I show these to my teenage daughter and her friends and they like it as much as downloading Zeppelin (and more recently Rock'N'Roll Girls by John Fogerty-once of CCR-does this mean a democratic is coming to US office?) Sorry, the spirit of the moment.

This Anne Cameron reminds me of Million Dollar Baby-no jerkin around-I am glad I am not on the other end of that. The good (or the bad) news Anne is Oprah simply wont' have you. You remind me more of Joan Baez meets Janis Joplin.

The fish farm debate cannot be dropped until they are gone. We are doing wonderful things in this province for the environment but often because we are forced to by other events- Walkerton etc. Our problem is that we need a very significant political push (I mean organized and effort and all that) to set the next pieces of policy in motion for complete social cost accounting concerning the environment. It is simply a case of half measures. The most obvious case of this for the province is likely the Fraser River, however Rafe and Anne are correct, you must go after and single out (like wild dogs on a hunt) that most conspicuous problem-which is this fish farm thing.

Look, in 1986 I was public financing a series of grow-out systems for prawns with a group from USC. A world patent for this system was obtained. Aquaculture was all the rage here in British Columbia, but the systems they are using are not materially different than those that exist now 20 years later. I remember sitting in our offices in the Grosvenor building talking about essentially the same problems with fish farming as Rafe, Morton, Cameron et al are talking about now. This isn't a discussion about Global warming, (and by the way I know many Republican supporters in the United States and they are talking about the environment in much more positive and productive ways than even we are-I know its hard to believe but it is true).

It is a Global village now, and I repeat the US, and others look at BC (as does Quebec and many other places) as the opportunity for nirvana-. We produce this by being as good and better as places like Oregon on the environment, and if Anne Cameron has to open up a can of whoopass to do this-count me in. (I also was never informed that Rafe was a womanizer-sorry)

As long as the BC Ferries keep overcharging and adding more charges ($600 to visit family there), maybe they can hold back the mainland from joining the protest over there at the ARCH, but I would like to propose an organized activity -Rafe you've got the radio-how about a prize no trip to Hawaii-but rather three days in a tent on Vancouver Island.

Knock out the fish farms and I promise you the rest of the success will flow from there.

Ron I am with you. It sure is interesting when one takes a more reasoned approach towards the subjects of fish farming and man caused global warming on this site, the teeth sure start grinding by those that won't do any research themselves. The geo sciences in school should be manditory.
On fish farming has anyone on this site ever been to a fish farm, I don't think so, I have and I didn't see any lice on those fish. Oh thats because of the chemicals. There are a lot more chemicals in beef, pork, chickens and produce. I don't even want to guess the amount of chemicals in weed. Also out on the water a fish farm is hardly noticeable, they are not exactly choking the channels.
The amount of protein used in fishfarming to raise a fish is a lot less than used in other food animals. Look around folks everyday there is more people at the breakfast table and they have to be fed somehow.
AS for mancaused global warming there are more scientist that have their doubts than those that support it.
The earths climate has always been dynamic. The earth is still warming up from the little ice age that ended in the 1500's. Check out this web site for information on climate change.
Come on people do some research yourselves.

Stuart

anne cameron

Sounds like "Jesus" is turning a million fish into one through salmon farming.........

Willy, all forms of monocropping, whether it is in agri or aquaculture, demand ever increasing chemical inputs that ultimately wipe out the benefits and cause system breakdowns. Huge, once fertile areas and water tables are now completely ruined by farm chemicals and the concentrations of manure, antibiotics etc. of cattle feedlots. The same principle as chemically laden fishfarms.

My cattle get absolutely no chemicals, no steroids, no hormones, no corn and they're healthy as can be, because they live naturally and eat only grass with some small amounts of natural protein supplements in the winter. They also have the tastiest organic meat, most poeople never tasted at far lower costs than the meat coming out of factory farms.

Chemical farming, now called "conventional", to remove the connections with chemicals, is a recent idea and a crime against the Earth and humanity. I've been involved in farming since 1948, 7 years of it on a large, corporate chemical farm, now 26 years of organic, and can assure you that chemical farming, combined with our daily dose of absorbed other chemicals in the air, water and everything we touch is the cause of the majority of illnesses, especially of the cancer epidemic that didn't exist before. Most illnesses are now manmade, but this fact is desperately covered up by the "market economy" madness and all levels of government. The economy is now hooked on drugs and don't know how to quit without a major breakdown.

I don't eat fish, but if I did, I wouldn't touch farmed fish any more than supermarket pork fed with their own manuree, or the dead and tasteless, eggs coming our of chicken and egg factories where the birds are also loaded with chemicals. Until humanity comes to its senses and stops this madness, it will keep on going downhill into more sickness and environmental destruction. Ed Deak, Big Lake.

Blonde; I fail to see why I should be asked to prove that farmed fish are okay. It's kinda like asking an innocent man to prove he is innocent.
No, that's not how it works. An innocent man is innocent until you prove him guilty.
It's up to detractors of salmon farming to prove it's harmful. So far I don't buy it.

Dear Ron Erwin;

Roll up, sir I have here the most stupendous new product ever devised by man or woman. It's organic, it's effective and safe? Well...

Let me tell you about this amaaaaaazing elixir. It will cure warts, piles, bad breath, bad hair and make your mother in law leave town. It's made from the oil of the rare and exotic Amazonian Bull Snake, and nobody can prove that those people didn't die from natural causes. And all for the measly price of your childrens future. And theirs.

Please. You can't be that naive. People lie for money. You lie yourself, sometimes. We should trust the survival of species that have sustained whole cultures of humans; species held sacred by generations to the good will of these Bozos? (No offense to the actual Bozo the Clown)

The thing is erwin is that several people have offerred you plenty of facts demonstrating the harmful nature of fish farms. You've retorted with the playground equivalent of "no it isn't" without any support. This is why you're constantly asked to provide evidence: if you're so insistant that sandra morton et al. are junk scientists, back it up for crying out loud.

All I have been told is that there are sea lice. They stick to the skin of salmon. They may have killed a salmon smolt somewhere.
What I have not been told is how many sea lice on a salmon is too many 1 to 1,000,000 ?
When did these sea lice come along in 2000 BC or 2000 AD. Is there less sea lice now than 100 years ago ? What would the health effcts be if I ate a handful of sea lice ? Have sea lice killed a single adult salmon ? Is there any causal connection to salmon farms ?
I do have one absolute fact to pass on.
In Australia the number of shark attacks on humans goes up with the increased consumption of cream. In otherwords coralative arguments don't mean shit.

Shark attacks and cream consumption has absolutely no theoretical basis; therefore, further study would be fruitless regardless of the correlation. Sea lice and fish farms is worth look at because of the strong theorectical link. Corralative arguments do mean $hit erwin when there is a theorectical link - it is the foundation of scientific inquiry.

"Blonde; I fail to see why I should be asked to prove that farmed fish are okay. It's kinda like asking an innocent man to prove he is innocent.
No, that's not how it works. An innocent man is innocent until you prove him guilty.
It's up to detractors of salmon farming to prove it's harmful. So far I don't buy it."

Personally, I think the salmon farmers who prove their practices do not harm the wild stocks, with independent science. So far I don't buy it.

I thought it was pointed out earlier that you can't pound knowledge into a block of wood? You've tried big hammers, little hammers, sledge hammers, ball peen hammers, claw hammers and jack hammers. Have I missed any? Oh ya. I forgot...you can't pound knowledge into a block of wood. Until it's worth debating, and it won't be, ignore it.
"Never a breath you can afford to waste...."

Club; you forgot hammer sharks. Are you hammered ?

Oh come on Willy, get serious. Just because we are foisted with chemicals in our beef, pork and chicken doesn't mean we should put them into our fish.

This just in from the Vatican:

After centuries of confusion, bad math, cheap cynical politics and a couple of canonical rifts, the worlds wealthiest church has announced it no longer cares how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Attention will now be focussed squarely on a new phenomina that is stirring up debate and confusion and generating much faith-based doubt.

First noted in the outpourings of earth traditionalist Ron Erwin's writings, fundamentalists are now clamouring to be the first with an accurate count of the number of sea lice a salmon smolt can attract in one pass through the Broughton Archipelego.

So far, according to Erwin, estimates vary between one and one million. However, readers need to be cautious in reading too much into his estimates because Erwin is known to some as a leading skeptic.

Hello everyone, check out this article, I can hardly wait for the comments from this merry band of commentators, http://www.aims.ca/library/Chatterton.pdf

What's the big deal Willy.... This is about communications science and strategy in dealing with the press. The only science it deals with is the science of market strategy. It makes recomendations to the aquaculture industry on how it should proceed and not worry to much about the 2 to 8 percent of the general population that are against them. It doesn't dispute or add anything to the science of Aquaculture itself period. Next....

This could easily have been written by the Fraser Institute. Beautiful piece of industry propaganda. E.g. the constant reference to the opponents of fish farms and generally to environmentalists as "activists". So what are the proponents? Are they not "activists". This is the same as the usual praopagandistic reference to union leaders as "union bosses". Also the reference to some of the salaries paid to the heads of environemntal groups smacks of the anti union propaganda by big business, who are paid in millions.

When we talk about "science", we have to remember that nuclear weapons, poison gasses, all armaments, chamical farming, GM seeds and feeds have all been developed by "scientists" with all kinds of letters behind their names. Hitler's extermination of the Jews was also based on "science" as were the idiocies of the Stalin communists ansd Mao's "Cultural Revolution" and the Fraser Institute's publications.

Couldn't you come up with a more rational argument, instead of such cheap bought and paid for piece of whitewash rubbish ? Ed Deak, Big Lake.

RonE, I guess a little informed debate is just too much for you, eh? As for your "innocent man" metaphor most will do and discuss anything that proves it. I have read about the European countries who had tried fish farms prior to us and they are struggling with the mysterious losses to their native stocks perhaps you can name an country that have seen the native stocks remain the same or increase?

Blondie; Chile and Canada

Looks like the defenders of farmed salmon have succumbed to 'mad fish' disease. It's the opposite of mad cow disease where the host developes the infection because a vegetarian animal like a cow is force fed animal protiens. The difference is that salmon are fed vegetable protiens thereby setting the stage for more mutated infections. Mad Fish Syndrome lowers it's victims IQs and causes them to lose the ability to think rationaly.

fiat lux:

And now the suggestion has been put forward to let the loggers and the beetles ravage the pine forests, until ther eis nothing left. The all that "barren land" can be turned into pasturage for millions of cows. It seems we have (all ready!) forgotten what happens when the main buyer throws a hissy fit..............

Hello, heh I am not defending anything but some of these enviromental groups have turned into corporations themselves so their motives should be looked at. Don't take everything they say as gospel. I am not against enviromental groups, they have done a lot of good for the enviroment but also take a good look at anything they say.

You are right Willy. All information you recieve on any subject should be considered suspect and regarded as opinions. I was around during the seventies and eighties. Anyone who traveled BC during those days can remember the layers of sudsy foam covering the Fraser River and also Howe Sound. Without the efforts of many groups both those huge waterways would still look like a bubble bath. At the time pulp mills said they would go bankrupt if they couldn't polute on a whim. They are still in business and bigger than ever.

There’s certainly a lot of emotion being stirred up here, so perhaps an overview might be helpful.

- Sea lice are a naturally existing critter. Every (adult) salmon has a few of them, and adult fish can handle the few they encounter.

– Open cage fish farms are a “Club Med” for sea lice. Nowhere in nature does such a prison for salmon exist, and so the numbers of sea lice bloom, and are very, very condensed.

– It is plain to see that the young salmon smolts that swim by these farms when venturing out to sea, get hammered by this unusually thick cloud of lice, and due to their small size, cannot handle it and most, if not all, die.

– Elsewhere in the world, wild runs of salmon have been obliterated by this exact same scenario.

– Due to the fact that it requires 3 to 6 pounds of other FOOD FISH (anchovies, herring, etc) to produce 1 pound of farmed salmon, fish farming is truly an unsustainable practice.

– The meat of a farmed salmon is unapetizingly gray in color. Red/pink dye (canthaxanthin) is added to the feed pellets to make the flesh the desirable color.

– Farmed salmon are also chalked with antibiotics, growth hormones and are consistently found to have high levels of PBDE and other nasty substances. I’ve often said: “If farmed salmon were FREE, I wouldn’t eat it!”).

– “Slice”, a chemical added to the feed, is used to deal with the lice problem (which the farmers also oddly say doesn’t exist, hmmmm), and is a known killer of all crustaceans. That means that all crab, shrimp, prawns etc in the area get nuked.

– We cannot rely on the wild stocks to supply human demand. They would be depleted. The thing that must happen is closed containment systems on land. The fish farming industry is reluctant to go this route because it costs more. (Ah, the love of money…) They are able to dump all of their nasty crap into our ocean free of charge, and without consequence from the DFO.

– With the mountainous evidence about how harmful open cage fish farms are to wild stocks and the environment (not to mention producing a toxic cocktail of a product), it becomes clear that what’s pushing this industry ahead is the evil side of human behavior in the form of big industry waving money in front of a salivating government. Back room deals and a myopic vision for such a valuable resource is a sad commentary on us humans.

– It’s too bad that we can’t collectively view the 5 species of salmon as a miracle of millions of years of evolution. A very real gift of nature. Instead, it must be harvested to the max and looked at through lenses of profit and short term gains. The next time you look at a salmon, try to appreciate just how long they’ve been here before we showed up. Grab a dose of humility and just say, “wow”. Be thankful and be a good steward of such a miraculous gift.

– Is it too idealistic to just keep wild salmon as a seasonal treat? Have we humans no self discipline? Why must we have it all year and cheap? Have most embraced a sick WAL MART mentality?

I’m afraid I’m becoming a little pessimistic about our long term survival as a species.

Ron Erwin, you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Mr.Erwin,6 is the number of lice that is too many.When the water is hot,the sockeye with six holes through their skin are the ones floating belly up,145 miles from the ocean.The others with fewer holes don t make it home either.And they don t look fit to eat

Ron Erwin--just who is he? Just where did he get his Phd in marine biology--from Degrees 'R'Us for $50? Tyee readers aren't shallow thinkers, so why is he writing here? Is he in the employ of the corporate media, hellbent on obfuscating the truth here in the free press? Why does anybody bother responding to his posts? Why the hell am I responding? Masochistic tendencies? As for Verso's assertion that fish farm stock doesn't harm wild salmon--a friend of mine caught "wild" Atlantic salmon in Georgie Lake near Holberg. In Norway and Scotland, in rivers where fish farms were allowed to propagate, all indigenous fish were wiped out and only the Atlantic salmon is to be found there, now. Are we willing to allow the same to happen here? Apparently Ron and Verso and a whole flock of like-ilk people are so willing! Too lazy to look at the objective research, rather than the easy sleazy twaddle put out by scientists in the employ of fish farmers? Just because someone has a "Dr." in front of his name doesn't mean he's a marine biologist, or even current. He could be a doctor of proctology. Research the guys who are writing as scientific experts for the Fraser Instapuke and fish farms. Does their research pass scrutiny? No, but their pocketbooks do! Alas, their bought-and-paid-for "science" gets more coverage in the corporate media--certainly more press than the bonafide, objective research scientific reports. Profits are more important to the pimped press. Sadly, the brainwashed marketplace faithful have the vote, and they comprise the majority.

Ed Deak: I farmed, retired only because my back would no longer allow me to do the hard physical work required. Like you , I did not use steroid-leaking ear tags, growth hormones, estrogen additives or any other such muck, and, like you, I had healthy animals which produced fine, nourishing meat. I did not hesitate to feed it to my grandchildren. My farm was MUCH smaller than yours probably is, the cost of land on the coast is so high the farmers are being squeezed out, and that has to mean the growing population is increasingly at the mercy of agri-business and imported, often unhealthy , food.

I live on the west coast of Vancouver Island, now. Esperanza and Tahsis inlets are still rich, unfortunately, we have had fish feedlots set up. I've been protesting net pen feed lots for more than twenty years, and I have done MUCH research. None of it encourages me in any way , and I cannot support any part of the feed lot industry.

What the salmon feedlot industry has done in other places should be all the proof we need to shut them down! Even if these net pens were made to go out to open water, the damage spreading out from them would be unacceptable to any reasoning person. The umitigated chemical soup added to the feed is , in a word, gross. And another word would be dangerous.

I am (sadly) aware battery production of all types of meat is rampant. To me it is bizarre and evidence of mental instability to say that because other kinds of commercially produced meat are poisoning our kids we should sit back and suck it up and let commercially produced fish poison them, too. It's such a SICK way of thinking that when I first read the correlation I thought the writer was joking.

The impact on wild fish hasn't even begun to be realized. "slice" kills off prawns, crabs, and those strange little things we call "squatters" (they look like a cross between a prawn and a lobster). The impact on bottom feeders hasn't been effectively studied, we actually know very little about the real harm these pens cause but what little we do know is, in itself, plenty of reason to shut them down.

Closed tanks on land with sewage treatment could produce "farmed" fish. But that type of fish production costs more and it wouldn't do anything about the absolute muck fed to the captive fish.

I'm not sure what Ron Erwins motivation is for his repeated putricity but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that, as a child, he was ADHD, one of those annoying little yap-mutts the other kids tried to avoid because of his unfortunate blethering and arguing.

Marysue

"As for Verso's assertion that fish farm stock doesn't harm wild salmon--a friend of mine caught "wild" Atlantic salmon in Georgie Lake near Holberg."

I never made such an assertion, you must be referring to this post in which I made a typo:

"Personally, I think the salmon farmers who prove their practices do not harm the wild stocks, with independent science. So far I don't buy it."

It was in response to Ron's assertion that it should be up to detractors to prove fish farming is harmful.

My point should have read:

"Personally, I think the salmon farmers should prove their practices do not harm the wild stocks, with independent science. So far I don't buy it."

If you read the rest of my comments you'd see I don't hold fish farms in very high regard. Thanks

In the 1930's millions of atlantic where released on the west coast to improve the fishery, but they all died off.

willy: IF that were true, escapements are only a small part of all that is wrong with this industry.

"I'm not sure what Ron Erwins motivation is for his repeated putricity"

Have you ruled out equal parts ignorance, hubris, and stupidity?

Ever had alantic on the barby, its great. Better than wild.

you are kidding right? Have you ever eaten a Nass Sockeye?
obviously not!

Someone said a ways back that he hoped the people around the Skeena know about the problems occurring in the south and that we do something about it. We do and we are doing. The Skeena Queen Charlotte Regional District has passed a motion taking a stand against open net fish farming. We also voted in Nathan Cullen (NDP) to represent us in Ottawa. We know too dearly, the fishing industry here is a dying industry and introducing fish farms will spell the end. It is incredible that within 10 years since I was fishing in a healthy salmon fishery and a commercial fisher could make a living, that it has shrunk to a trickle. The plentiful fishing areas around the outflow of the Skeena waters and the Skeena itself was not even opened for commercial fishing this season. Now the concern here is the non-return of the valuable and venerated sockeye. First the sockeye, then the pinks, then chum will go down (in this area). Speaking for the coastal migrations,there are other disasters waiting for the fish before they have to swim past any fish farms. It is unknown whether it is DFO mismanagement or warmer climate, but of course it is probably both and with more factors figuring into it. I detest the headgames on this debate about who has the right philosophy on economics. Stop talking and do something that will save the wild salmon. Don't waste your breath on writers who are talking about junk scientists. Most of us know that the science has been done and the results show the sea lice are a dangerous problem. Ron Irwin, who is illogical? I am not an eco-terrorist. I love life and know it is interconnected-all life on all planet. And to counter opinions-don't get into extremist positions like this opinion is evil. You can see the dangerous situation the States is in because of their non-belief in freedom of speech. Who is it that controls this province? Is it the people that troll our waters sport fishing or the foreigners that get off the cruise ships in Prince Rupert or is it the sports fishing camps or the fish farm corporations? I look in the Prince Rupert Daily News and see 3 jobs posted. I can only ask the southerners and city people to do what they feel is best to keep our environment from harm and do it in the way that means the most to you. Thanks Raif for the fight, thanks Anne for you willingness to put yourself out there too and Stuart-your posting is pro-active and thank you for it and the others who have posted positively in aid of our salmon. Put out the word and believe me this coastal industry is changing faster than small farms to feedlots and land corporations. I've seen them both in my life.

Brownie you mention the Skeena fishery going down the tubes, well there are no farms up there. Maybe what is causing problems applies elsewhere and not so much the farms.
As for the Fraser river fishery native poaching is the problem there, you know the stewards of mother earth.

hey willy the problems on the Skeena will be compounded with fish farms, incompentence and deceit are the biggest problem the Sheena faces and this from our Federal and Provincial agencies who are supposed to be looking after our natural resources.

Over logging, logging to the waters edge allowing runoff to silt up river and creek bottoms, the waters are warmer now with less shade. Pollution pesticides being used by logging companies (canfor in Houston) are but a few of the issues facing the Salmon in B.C., what amazes me is how quiet the sport fisherman and guides have been, they have more to lose then I do as I no longer fish, many of them will be losing their livelihood!

When you add all the problems up it is quite obvious the fish are in big trouble and so is an entire industry, the greedy corporations and corrupt stupid incompetent governments are shoving fish farms down our throats so if people don't start digging in their heels and fighting back they are going to get screwed! I don't fish and rarely eat the stuff anymore but if I did I would be really pissed at the politicians. I blame them and no one else, it is their job to protect the assets of the taxpayers not line their own pockets!

oops typo on Skeena, good thing I don't make my living typing! I don't care about typo's anyway more concerned about the content then some ones ability to type or use american spell checkers!

Just smoked two salmon last weekend, one was a wild chinook that I caught on the west coast of Vancouver Island, it had a few sea lice but was very feisty and robust, the other was a farmed salmon given to me by a friend who grows them, it had no sea lice nor evidence of any previous infection (this can show as scaring or redding of the skin near the anal fin). Both of these salmon were FANTASTIC. I have visited my friend's farm and have been very impressed by the cleanliness of the site and the professionalism of the staff who appear to be genuinely concerned about the environment.