First-past-the-post gives power to whoever the centre votes for. You may as well have 2 or 12 parties with the same platform because the only one that gets elected will be the one the centre supports.

What Rafe is really calling for is an end to idealism. No longer should we believe politics can make a difference. Instead we should all think the same and always be ruled by the party of the centre.

That's fine if you look at politics as a game where being elected is all that's important.

However, many people want more out of their politics than to simply cheer for a party as if it was a hockey team and about as relevant to their economic well being.

Parties ahould exist to represent the diversity of the population. If that calls for 50 parties, so be it. From communist parties to those that would join BC with the US. They should all exist if they have support. There should be a modern electoral system that is not based on the old British tradition of 2 parties that both represent power and privelege under the illusion of providing choice.

Parties should not move to gain support. Parties should work to move voters to support their platforms. If they fail they disappear.

Having said all that, we live under first-past-the-post so the NDP should cut its union ties and get elected.

I agree with the poster Frank. Once parties become so "prudent" or "pragmatic" that getting elected is their only goal then I'll stop voting. I think the whole move into the center strategy is as misguided as it is overplayed. Ever political pundit seems to think they know the golden ticket and that is move to the center, turf your values and you'll get votes because you won't stand for anything bad (ie. anything at all).

If anything, the parties need to move beyond the simplified and traditional definitions of left and right. The NDP knows it must attract business, but it should attempt to insert them into the framework of its social value system rather than dropping one for the other. I see "green" issues (the environment, not the party) as being some of those things that goes beyond left and right and could do well to attract voters. A lot of these ideas are already being milled around by the federal NDP.

Anyway, bottom line: give the people something new, something innovative, something that everyone can participate in and they will vote!

I agree with Frank too. I get annoyed that all this political pragmatism means that everything is now perspective and opinion fighting for brand recognition. Even if we think a belief we hold is "right"..."just"..."better"... whatever, if we are practical minded, we are told we have to "moderate" that view to appeal to some statistical and fictitious group called the centre. I think that approach generates an incoherent jumble.

Rafe succumbs to this jumble in this article I think - would he adopt
( a few examples from some of his recent concerns) a "moderate" position on the question of damming the Fraser for Hydro power to appeal to the centre? What would the centre appealling position be on Iraq does he think, and is that really the right question? How would centerist views best have been served in 1938 in the UK in the face of Hitler? When the rubber hits the road, whatever Rafe says in this article, I suspect his position would come from his sincere convictions and deliberation and not some nonsense about appealing to the centre.

Besiddes, you might as well adopt principled positions of sincere conviction - since the centre moves! Trying to move it towards you might be better than swimming to a moving target. Didn't that use to be called "politics"?

I agree that the NDP should cut it's union ties, but so should the Liberals cut their big business, Chambers of Commerce, Board of Trade ties. And and especially donations. Political parties should not be associated with special interest sectors and this rule should cover all.
Ed Deak, Big Lake.

Rafe is right, the left is lost, as they are in all the Western democracy's. Slowly things have been shifting to the right and I guess Carol James has caught on. My question is, where are the socialists going to go ?
There really isn't that much room in the middle unless the B.C.Liberal Part and the NDP merge.

I don't think you're right, Ron... it may look like the left is lanquishing, but only if you don't stop and consider the great variety of leftist notions that were seen as radical a generation or two ago that are now very mainstream. The left is alive and well. Sometimes I think it has to grow a sense of humour, and cut down on all the chatter - but that's another story.

That's right John, over at Fox sports where the right seems to manufacture all their own statistics, the mood is fear. Having been virtually uncontested to call the games as they see fit there is now a challenge from the left. The alternative press hounds are now, finally, getting some recognition. Yes Jimmy the Greek is gone from view, but something tells me he is alive and well, working behind the scenes at Fox...

Left and right are constructs that serve special interests. Labelling allows the best means for the media to portray electoral politics with the maximum amount of conflict.
Labelling closes real debate by taking shortcuts in assumptions. It is a cynical exercise that presupposes everything and knows nothing.
Our provincial Liberals carry a label that is more likely to apply in the laissez-faire approach to the market, than in its commitment to social welfare for residents. But the empirical evidence to suggest that they are business friendly (and interfere in the market) would imply that they are not anything other than opportunistic, with better reality spinners.

"I get annoyed that all this political pragmatism means that everything is now perspective and opinion fighting for brand recognition" -John

The unfortunate truth of this comment is despite it's annoying tendencies, political pragmatism is something that has to be factored into a party's thinking. It's great to hold onto the idea that brand recognition has nothing to do with politics, but the nature of democracy has changed to the point where no party's ideal is pure or set in stone, and if it doesn't look good, it ain't gonna sell. Politics changed on a surface level when TV made a splash in presenting the JFK/Nixon debates (with TV watchers saying JFK won, and radio-listeners claiming Nixon the winner), and makes a deeper change on a political-platform level where in order to be a party that can compete with the big guys, you have to play their game (while trying to keep an idealist mentality). Unless we can shift outside this seemingly pseudo-democracy that poses as "free and diverse choice for all", the game will have to played. Maybe the medium really is the message; if all we want to see is a party "appearing" to follow what we think we want, it's right that we get it.

indeed the bc ndp and the bc liberals are all trying to capture the middle of the political spectrum - the fiberals are to the right of the ndp, but in my view the bc ndp is right of centre as well. As for those who tendencies are more on the 'left' ...I don't see much political space for them within any mainstream political party. Where those who can't stand 'blairite 'don't rock the boat muddle of the road democratic socialism' will vote in the next election is unknown ...will they abstain from voting, be lured in the ndp camp, or ??? is unknown....anyways...all this is moot...the next bc election is way off in the future...and the winds of change will blow in due course.

I hope that Carol James cuts the NDP's formal ties to labour. A government with the widest possible support is a good thing. They might do some things I don't personally think is in the best interests of our province, but I'd be the last person to nominate myself as dictator. I'll be surprised if Campbell can get to the middle. Anyone who changes the labour law to ensure that 12 year-olds can work for $6 an hour is way out there in my mind.

A whole bunch of political parties, all pretty much single issue or hardcore ideological? You can imagine how much would get done. You can imagine the dirty, backstabbing politics that would undoubtedly occur under such government. No thanks, Frank, I'll take the middle anytime.

Carmen, your final line is a brilliant one.. in the end if we buy the car, eat the cereal, or settle for the government that "appears" to be what we want...if our desire, our want, goes no deeper, then unsurprisingly, as you say, in the end we get what we want...which unfortunately is only the appearance of the thing, not the thing itself.

Left - right, it makes no difference. In today's politik, the winning party favours those who financially supported it. The Liberals have handsomely rewarded all its friends who contributed to the 'party'. BC Rail sold at a firesale price to the CNR; fish farms are given a free hand, and so on. The same is true of the NDP.

It is foolish if one thinks we live in a democracy, we don't. The sheep are trotted out every 3 to 5 years after 6 months of being bribed with their own money, for the 'election', which results mean little for the vast majority.

The only real change will happen if a revolution of some sort takes place. Quiet or violent, it won't happen here as we just 'get along' alays complaining but rarely doing anything about it.

Until the public wake up, we will get more of the same until the whole damn thing collapses.

Mr. Mairs comments may be an acurate discription of our situation, but he did not say this means we are a democracy, in the usual sense of the word. If there is no difference between paying taxes, and paying a bribe to the mafia, then Carol and Gordon are both irrelevant, terrorism is all that I am left with, right? Or is there another option, it's for Carol and Gordon to decide!

Until we know where the centre is, this is all irrelevant. There might not be a centre. Left of where? The universe has no middle and the political spectrum is potentially infinite. It's really more opportunism than anything else. The labels just follow.

Hang on a sec.... There is no right, there is no left. There may not even be a centre. The universe has no middle and there may not ever be any solutions to anything?
The more I talk to people the more I like animals. They don't twist meanings or misunderstand things. They have a better sense of humor than most people, especially on this site. They understand the food chain. They understand it better than us. Eat and avoid being eaten. Take away all the laws we have created in the name of god, country and morality and thats what would be left. So, do you think you might park that pompous attitude if you knew the next person you offended was going to kill you for dinner? The political spectrum is potentially infinite? Sorry I don't buy that. The more complex you make it the less chance it has of working, it will break down. Just like our economy with it's specialization, it will soon break apart. And no one has any knowledge of how we might move forward as all the low lying fruit has been picked clean years ago. The complications have come in many forms, religion, politics, TV advertising, the whole consummer driven world applies the gentle pressure relentlessly, and eventually we crack under that load. Find the simple truths in this life and then live the best you can. Friends and family and play time. That's what matters. Lighten up for Christ's sake....

The NDP should not break it's ties with the unions, and Campbell should not break his ties with big business. Neither party will institute STV even after a majority voted for it.
It is time for a new centrist party that applies common sense rather than ideology, that encourages input from constituents and responds accordingly rather than the top-down governments we are used to.
The Liberal flag would be the natural banner for such a party, so perhaps a movement to 'hijack back' the party would be in order to force the conservative element to run under their own banner.

I think the centre are the people who like ideas from both the Libs and the NDP and actually have to think about who to vote for.

That is not "the centre" in the overall political scheme but in a 2 party system I think its safe to say the centre is between them.

Chris, stability and order are positive things. Its what kept the Austrian Empire going till 1918. However, I think its an illusion to reduce politics to an ideological battle for the centre because it ignores the marginalization of a lot of people who will thus simply give up on the democratic process.

I believe that our current level of prosperity and the level of trust we still place in our institutions (trust that I think is eroding) is all that keeps our society moving along. If we were a poorer society our undemocratic political structures would be ignored and we'd have a real crisis.

Hey Ron... if your claim that the left is all washed up because they are moving towards the centre what does that suggest about el Gordo's shift towards the left? Are you suggesting that the els are lying again and are just pretending to be socially concerned?

Instead of "The Blair Experiment", I would have titled that section "The Blair Witch Project". Look at where Blair has taken Britain. Do we really want to drag the NDP that far away from their traditional positions?

(Note that the war in Iraq does not signify here, as provinces don't get involved in foreign policy to that degree. I'm referring to things like mandatory school testing and health care privatization.)

Clubofrome:

Take a deep breath. Democracy, which is not seen practiced by animals other than humans, is an arena for any potential viewpoint, including yours and mine. Democracy is not neat, and doesn't lend itself to facile simplification.
By the way, I think you are mistaking animal instinct for understanding. I love non-human animals too, but I don't romanticise their existence on earth.
Does reading something that you find offensive make you want to eat the offending writer? You leave this impression.

Breath in, hold....breath out.... Thanks! Having an infinite set of variables isn't going to help us out of this mess we are in. I assume we are both of the realization that time is running out on society as we see it now. So in order to effect change, I propose everyone take several deep breaths and re-evaluate why they are here. The reasons aren't that complex, so why should our lives be so cluttered with all of these distractions. Prying you away from the real reason you are here. The big wheel of industry keeps on turning and we keep on buying. When enough people stop buying or the economic system collapses then change will happen. That's where hope comes in, cultural revolution is now the last option. They have the wealth, the power and the weapons, while we hurl insults. We are all animals and the minute you forget that is the minute you will be eaten. I haven't seen any man made system yet that works any bettor than that of nature, is my point. As we are soon to find out when Mother earth regulates us off the planet.
Sorry if my rants leave you with the impression of canabalism! You'll be safe with me in the life boat.....

Simple truth #1
A happy animal is a healthy animal. Positive feedback loop! The body functions better when you have a clear mind and feel good. I am happiest on vacation. I would make an excellent millionaire. You can be of any shape, size or color to be happy, it's a choice not a destination. It has nothing to do with how fit you are. It's more a fitness of the mind.
People should be encouraged to explore this aspect of human development. It should be taught early on.
I just can't believe the average person on the planet would rather fight than spend the evening at home with the family/friends.

The left and right are splattered misconceptions from the erroneous plurality of which we have framed our democracy around. The lowest common denominator rules, and the question is not what is best for our country and province but which is best for the party.

The only definition of the right comers from the left, and vice versa. It is not as much of a description as a slur. Rather than electing representatives to best deal with regional issues, we choose parties who best incite fear-mongering against the other. For to long our electoral notions have ensured that you do not vote for a representative but against it. Policies of fear rather than policies for the future serve no one, except for the parties themselves.

As long as we reward winner takes all majoritarian systems, we will maintain the horse race.

If our elected officials aren't planning policy for our future then that would mean that they are only worried about re-election. Oh my God!! Does this mean David Suzuki is the only one looking out for the future?

clubofrome, Suzuki? I thought you were an educated guy? Its Goodenow, Linden and Bettman who are the only ones concerned about the future. They put the future first in their every thought.

Uh, and Brian Burke who thinks of the future all the time.

Oh, and the Chinese who I hear from Kissinger are still puzzling over the long-term ramifications of that French Revolution thing that happened awhile back. So who could be more future-looking than a Chinese hockey management guy I ask you?

No, David Suzuki is a eco fraud looking for your money.

"No, David Suzuki is a eco fraud looking for your money."

Ron, I find it staggering that in your world, Bush is a hero and Suzki a fraud.

Just saying.

...You think they want a franchise?

Civility is a human construct that seems to have evolved out of a desire to reduce bloodshed when interests collide. We are ALL animals, with reptilian brains. But we also have higher reasoning ability and brain space devoted to holding our impulses in check. We have not evolved outside of nature, but we sure rationalise our destruction of it, including other humans, especially if they look different.

BTW, RON ERWIN:

Pretty well everyone here, except you, gets by without deliberately slandering reputations. What bothers you the most about David Suzuki? That he is right, more often than not? Or that he actually provides evidence when he makes statements? Go away and raise the IQ level of the lair you reside in.

Clubofrome:

Thank you for the reassurance, although let's hope a call for the lifeboats is still far in the future...

clubofrome:

Is it possible to even have a millionaire is a sustainable world?
http://www.clubofrome.org/

David Suzuki? Now there's a laugh. I saw him say, in 1985, that there would be no trees left in B.C. by the year 2000, and that all of the world's oil supplies would be exhausted by 1998.
But back to Rafe's piece: The NDP's (read: the B.C.Fed's) strategy will be to pretend that they are not aligned with labour, but at election time labour will put another massive effort into getting rid of the Libs because they think they're ideologically opposed to them. If they'd open their eyes they'd realize that the Lib's policies are better for labour in the long run, but Mr. Sinclair loves to wear blinkers when he spouts his rhetoric.

NEMESIS:

I saw the same thing. Your critique of Suzuki's soothsaying abilities has the air of an armchair expert about it. His point wasn't in predicting dates exactly, but what happens after finite resources run out.
Please provide evidence that the Campbell liberals have policies that "are better for labour in the long run". After you take your own blinkers off. Oh, the rhetoric...

Nemisis:

I saw suzuki in the 80's too (as a young person who could be, and was, influenced by him), and one of the big pushes was for wilderness preservation in BC. Of course, Harcourt did then nearly double the amount of protected areas as Suzuki and the WCWCW (and valhalla) were asking.

10 years working in the bush also taught me that yes, there will always be trees. But no, there will not always be uspoiled wilderness.

Go get to know Vancouver Island. Try to find the untouched valleys. Carmanah was one of the valleys that Susuki was talking about. It would've been gone by 2000. Kitlope, Kutzamateen(sic), etc. etc.

As for oil, yes, new reserves and new ways of extracting it have been discovered. And people still are using the stuff. It now costs $1 a litre. I ask you this, if we had listned to people like suzuki and taxed gas to all hell when it was cheap (let's say 50 cents additional tax when it was 49 Cents), imagine how our transit systems could have been built, and our cities greened. All our quality of lives would be higher. Now we pay that same price, and get nothing. Maybe it's time to call for $1.50 gas and see what is possible.

Look. I liked cutting down trees. I also like unspoiled wilderness for future generations. And I certainly respect David Suzuki and all he's tried to do to moderate the rampant ignorance here on Earth.

I am sitting
In the middle
Of a rather Muddly
Puddle,
With my bottom
Full of bubbles
And my rubbers
Full of Mud,
While my jacket
And my sweater
Go on slowly
Getting wetter
As I very
Slowly settle
To the Bottom
Of the Mud.
And I find
that What a person
With a puddle
Roud his middle
Thinks of mostly
In the muddle
Is the Muddi-
Ness of Mudd

--------Dennis Lee

Good point RickW. The obvious answer is no. As previously posted, it should be a crime against humanity to accumulate great wealth on the backs of others. The accumulation of wealth undermines your life support system.

To not respect David Suzuki for his efforts on the longest running CBC production is like saying Mr. Dressup was a joke too. If you can't acknoweldge his achievements and celebrate his dedication to his work, then you are simply not worthy of belonging to this society. Please remove yourself from the gene pool. It's a nightmare to think you may have children.
Camgra: Correction, you were perhaps correct. There are somethings I find so offensive that yes I would like to eat the offending writer...

Dear clubofrome; I'm curious.

Do you have recipes?

I mean, would you maintain the veneer of civilization by cooking those who annoy you?

Or would you prefer to revert to the more traditional and emotionally satisfying ripping out of the throat with bare teeth?

I agree with Rafe on some things but find him the old sleazy politician on the other, he talks about the public like a
football strategy and ponders the best way to manipulate them. The only way for people to follow up and your vision is
to speak the truth , just put the truth out their. We live in a society of super heroes, we are all waiting for David S , Michael Moore or some hero to say what we wish we could. ( BIG NEWS FOLKS, WE can say what we want we just
need a little courage to do so) Do you think David S alone can save the environment, he basically just provides a platform
for the public to act and get info. Do you think Carole or Gordo are the saviors, do you think the figure heads alone can
change the way the public thinks, NO. The leaders pull a mandate from their parties, ordinary folks can run the show if we
act, as far as financial support goes , unless folks put their money where their mouth is on both sides then their will be
special interest, special interest comes form the average citizen having no interest, If the masses got of their collective asses and acted than this kind of patronage could not exist.

As far as the so called middle, the left is the left and the right is the right, the middle is just a compromise of values and a routs to the right.

Left wing values are powerful and should be sung from the treetops, people should not compromise in an effort to pull in a few votes. What could be stronger than . Peace, Social Justice, Equality and a more equitable society.

Just put up BUSH, Mike Harris , Preston Manning as right wing poster boys and see who the public relates to.

Just like the last BC election, even with the MSM putting out all the positive spin on the economy , the Fiberals lost the popular vote, people know and I think would have come in huge #'s is Carole had just put it out their saying. Look folks voting Green risks propping up this corrupt, money grubbing, inhumane , and arrogant government again, she should have come hard and. We need more leaders will balls not a drift into mediocrity.

Hey, i bodada dell u, the economy is going great guns!(if you can get in on the circle j that is! Right Mr./Mrs. Coleman?)
Otherwise let us continue with the policies of economic apartheid, planet rape and mindless adherence to religious fanatisism!!(the last ones next-our lord who art thou in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven.)

p.s.- global warming is a hoax!!

Do you think I was a bit harsh? Oops, so sorry! I'll try and tone it down a bit. I'd love to stay and chat, but I have to run..."I'm having and old friend for dinner"

Mrs Clinton is experiencing a major backlash right now because of her recent attempts to capture the 'center' and comments about the left and the DLC.

People have had it. I think it is a big mistake for left leaning politicians to assume the left will always vote for them and so they can abandon the values of justice and equity to capture some imaginary center which the extreme right is promoting. No. Personally, I will not vote at all if there is a so called move to the center. Already, the NDP are the center. They even could be considered center right , if one compares them to basic Canadian values. I have voted my whole life. If Ms James etal abandon the principles of justice and equity for the citizens of BC, and instead take up the cause of increased corporatism, they will lose my vote.

One effect of the right wing extremism of late, is that the 'left', have solidified their values. One reason Howard Dean is so popular at the grass roots level is that he is actually representing many people's views. And, he is, at least perceived, as being real. It's so ironic that the 'left' actually appears to be rather traditionally conservative as opposed to the 'reactionary' right wing of late.

Blair's 'thrid way' which Rafe always advocates for the NDP is nothing but Neo-Con by stealth. No thanks.

Needless to say, I am using the terms left and right as shorthand.
I agree with the purposeful misuse of language for manipulation and gain by the 'right-wing reactionaries has rendered the terms inaccurate.

The right talks of less government but actually wants to control very personal aspects of peoples lives e.g. abortion, marriage.

Right wing politicians scare me because in Canada they parrot the worst aspects of the George W. Bush government.

What I find interesting is the darlings of the right wing press Mike Harris, George W., Gordon Campbell are all big time deficit spenders when they are supposed to be about "fiscal responsibility".

They never mention the success of Saskatchewan's NDP government who inherited a mess from the conservatives and subsequently have turned Sask. into a "have" province.

Whatever happened to those great PR ads that ran on TV just before the election and told us about the terrific Province we live in? You would think that now that the tourist season is here the Libs would want to tell the rest of the world what they are missing and could be investing in.

Rafe appears to be really stretching his imagination in recent weeks as the dog days of summer do little for fresh thought.

Seldom met a politician, Rafe included, who didn't think he or she wasn't the centre island to which the great unwashed naturally gravitated to once they were aware of it.

Mel
It's an Orwellian hallmark of the right-wing to simply call themselves or whatever evil they perpetrate as it's diametric opposite.
Hence "FREEDOM" actually means imprisonment
and John Kerry, a war hero, becomes an enemy of the state and an unpatriotic traitor. Massive cut-backs to EPA funding regarding industrial atmosheric pollution control become the "CLEAR SKIES" act and that which they call the "PATRIOT" act, at it's most fundamental level, is an affront to the very notions of what the founding fathers envisioned when they created the US constituation.
Here in BC, where under gordo et al(weyerhauser and intefor etc) raw log imports have vastly increased even while many local processing mills have closed we have the "WORKING FOREST".
By THEIR OWN WORDS(transcript of george "bag-man" abbott speech available upon request) the liberal's hugely degraded version of the environmental assessment act largely administered through the ministry of land, Water and Air "PROTECTION" is , in fact, a cynical rubber stamp process by which multi-national corporations who contributed to the bc liberal election campaigns are allowed to ravage our wilderness area's with little or no contraints leaving a trail of DESTRUCTION and EXTINCTION'S behind them.
The inverse correlation between what robber baron puppet fascists say and what they do is a testament to their true identity and purpose.
There is only one way to deal with people like this.
On a lighter note: "HEY BUSH, YOU SUCK!!!"

Please, in my rant above, replace "constituation" with "constitution" and "imports" with "exports".
Oh yeah and also please add "HEY GORDO, YOU SUCK TOO!!!"

I love the image, the headline and the metaphors all floating around here. The lifering being what we fling to the drowning as we shout 'man overboard!'.

Camgra, lynn and others notice that the terms of reference for the article are imaginary things. There's no such thing as right, left or center. Not really things, merely slogans. But then, we seem most attached to words with no real referents. 'Democracy' is one. Love, honour, God, peace; none can be held in our hands, none can be kept in a drawer.

For all that, these 'p.r. terms' can be the most important realities in a human life, can't they? To live or die for. Dynamic systems of meaning to rally around, to create ourselves as we would wish to be.

'We don't say these things because they're true; we say them because we need them to be true' as I recently heard somebody say.

I'm reminded in all this muddle of strong feelings of John Lennon's 'Imagine' where he lists all these terribly important things, these things we will eat each other over, and wonders what if we just let go of all that, fell back on the things that are real, the way we treat each other, the way we live, every day.

Not as right wing or lefties. Not as rich or poor, clever or fools, men or women, black white red or anything else. Just ourselves, every day, among ourselves.

What then? If the existence of a poor family was a discrace to all, and everyone admitted it? If business owners valued workers, and honoured them, and workers were safe from them? If Muslims and Christians and Jews really did love one another, and acted with integrity and charity and grace, as they tell us God commands them to do?

It's a thought. Something to cut through all the distracting imaginary distinctions that those who want to act badly love to hide behind.

Eric Blair (no relation to Tony)was a student of totalitarianism and Animal Farm is a brilliant satire of the Communist revolution. He might have lumped all the extremists into one pile: they are extreme by definition, not because they are labelled by some politician, somewhere. All that really distinguishes one politician from the other are opportunistic tactics.
Corporations have hi-jacked democracy. Call me anti-corporation but don't refer to me as left. It is an empty concept.The left vs right debate is like shuffling deck chairs while the ship sinks.

Yes, it's about right and wrong. Fair, or unfair.

It's time we started talking love again.

The Irish have a saying and it is that it is in each other that people find shelter.

Individualism to the extreme it is now being taken to, is anti-life. Anti who we are at the most fundamental aspect within us. Not for any spiritual reason, although that may also be so, but for our DNA which dictates that we are communal.

One finds few 'rugged individualists' within Chimp communities. Even the most dominant ape is also the one who carries the stress of looking after the community and maintaining social relationships through his place in the group.

I can't remember how Atlas Shrugged and the Fountainhead ended now, it's been so many years that I've read them, but it should have ended with the hero choosing to put a bullet through his head in the name of maintaining his own superiority. The only way to prove his status. Hmm. Did it end that way? Maybe I mentally rewrote it when I read it. I have a habit of doing that at times. Yikes, I'll have to google Howard Roarke to find out.

What an immature philosophy that appeals to frat brats who don't know enough to pound sand. And, who mostly, except for the few true psychopaths, will look back on this stage of their life with shame.

Carole and Gord
Rafe in some ways is correct with one main error I feel. True both are vying for the center. But there is a basic difference here. Ms James has from what I have viewed existed in the center of the political spectrum. Mr Campbell is attemtpting to become a 'Born Again" member of the center of BC Politcs. And that I feel is where the difference in all of this lies. Ms James is trying to take the NDP to a place she is commtied ideoligically to being. MR Campbell on the other hand is desperatley trying to capture Middle ground. An attempt in direct opposition to where he has lived in his political life in BC. The right is where he was as an alderman. Its where he lead his NPA cohorts as Vancouver's Mayor and as Premier he set BC on a path that followed the political lines of Mike Harris and Old King Ralph of ALberta. Ms James may or may not win the battle for middle ground. ONe often minstakenly defined as Union vs the rest in the NDP. Truth is often nothing is further from the truth. It is simply a power grab. Wild eyed left winged idealogues these people are not. But the media does love to create this myth. Campbell long ago silenced any middle ground in the Liberals. Gone are the voices of Liberal thought in this party. Replaced by right wing regurgitated Socreds and others from a pockets of the far right. SO the battle will be intersting. We will see how long either Ms James can carry the center sphere in the NDP and if Mr Campbell can convince both himeself and his fellow right wing friends that the middle is a place they feel comfortable in being.

BTW Allan,

I think you are on to something, suggesting Rafe is being affected by summer.

You're all on the wrong track. Gordo will retire in two years and the Libs will win in a walk in 2009. The NDP had better get used to being in opposition.

Nemesis:

You are keeping me busy on two threads!
Gordo doesn't plan to miss presiding over the Big Owe in 2010. I plan to stay in BC at least long enough to help spoil his party. And I'm not even a member of the NDP. The Libs are at the bottom of the barrel for leaders and are stuck with Gordo. Unless he kills or maims someone driving drunk. In their lurch to the "centre" they may need to recruit Svend Robinson, although this might cause a few howls in Chilliwack and some other places.

Assuming for a moment that a spectrum that is finite exists, where does Lord Brayencourt fit on it? Perhaps he is too close to the ultraviolet end and his brain has been permanently altered.

I think Nemesis's comments about 2009 are worth considering; if only to find ways to make it untrue.

I believe that the NDP was 'successful' in the most recent election because Gordo and crowd did a horrible job. This is especially so considering the true strength of the BC economy. Good management (and humane management) of the 2001-2005 government could have produced large surpluses, but for the regressive cuts.

I say this because I do not believe that a 'negative' strategy against the Liberals will be successful next time. The BC economy is too strong, its citizens too creative, and its population base too consistently growing.

On the other hand, I reject Rafe's reference to Tony Blair. Blair is a psychopath and a criminal. Further, rather than being considered 'successful' for the left, he is an absolute disgrace and tragedy. If it weren't for Blair, Bush would be gone by now. Blair has disenfranchised the honest centre-left and left.

So...what to do? It is my believe that the NDP needs to focus on taking control of the positive's in BC's economy, and not let Gordo take credit (as it certainly has nothing to do with his doing). More specifically, I think we need to really push creative entreprenureship and recognize it as a cornerstone of NDP policy. This is not heresy. In order for (especially) rural communities to grow, it is the creative class that will do it. And this group tend not to be right wing ideologues. There are many examples from the islands to the Kootenays.

But unlike Blair, we mustn't ever sell out internationally, formally, or socially. We are creative because we want our communities to grow. Nevermind Jimmy P, we'll make jobs for our friends too.

Interestingly, nobody seemed to notice that Campbell's ideal, Alberta, now has a $7 billion structural deficit, as reported in their papers, caused by government and service cutbacks, taxcuts to corporations causing the infrastructure of the province to fall apart without repairs, maintenance and new projects. Klein had a longer rule and if the BCLibs keep up their "business friendly" rule, this will come to BC too.

For one thing, our interior, pardon me "heartland", roads are falling apart with the increased traffic, much of it caused by the sale of BC Rail, and no maintenance. The imported, privatized, hospital food is not fit for pigs, from what I hear, the hospital laundry done in centralized locations is a good way to spread bugs and infections across the land, etc. etc.

But, according to our economists, all this is "cost effective" and "fiscally responsible" . Like boozehead Ralphie. So, where is that much desired "centre"? Ed Deak, Big Lake.

To; Fiat lux, I am sure you don't even know what a 7 billion dollar structural deficit is. Would you mind explaining it to me ?
All I know is Alberta should be a country. B.C. should be a country. The Maritimes should be a third world country.
You can research this "structural deficit thingy " and get back to us.

For any market economy enthusiast, including probably yourself, it means that the province's infrastructure is falling apart from cutbacks and neglect and it will take $7. billion to repair it. By the way, I've been a business owner in BC since 1957, so I do have a bit of understanding of what the maintenance of infrastructures in my own businesses and ranch means. You can fix something today for $1., you neglect it and it may cost you $100. next week. Like the two bit cotter pin on the ferryboat that crushed umpteen yachts, causing heavy millions of damge, luckily, no deaths. But it must have been "cost effective" at the time. Ed Deak. Big Lake.

NEMESIS where and when did suzuki say this?

" David Suzuki? Now there's a laugh. I saw him say, in 1985, that there would be no trees left in B.C. by the year 2000"

ron irwin you still have not answered my question, are you an american?

Camgra; Gordo won't miss the olympics at all, rather he'll be given a jimmy pattison/expo type of roll and he'll enjoy it immensely. Besides, he's devoted the last 20 years to public service, and he deserves to get back into the private sector and make some real money.
Ursus; Do you find it so hard to believe that Suzuki would make so outrageous a claim? 1985: The Nature of Things. His science is delinquent, to say the least.

I do find it difficult to believe he would make such a prediction and I will when time permits look into this. Anyone who doubts that deforestation is a major concern in B.C. they should fly over Northern B.C. the area where I grew up west of Prince Geroge is a mess clearcuts right to the waters edge!

Go up there and spend some time cruising the logging roads,believe me it is not sustainable, the bugwood dissaster has given gordo and his corporate backers in the forest sector a license to steal from the taxpayers of B.C., go look for yourself.

I am an ex logger and believe in forestry but what gordo and friends are doing is hardly sustainable, rape and run is more like it! They think the whole Province is theirs to do with as they please, turning our Forests into one big tree farm and the sad part is, with gordo in power they do own our Province!

Ursus; What if I was an American ?

'the bugwood dissaster has given gordo and his corporate backers in the forest sector a license to steal from the taxpayers of B.C.,'.
As opposed to the NDP's solution to the pine beetle disaster, which was to do absolutely nothing and leave the mess for the next guys to clean up. Give me a break Ursus, those infested forests are dying in a big hurry, and you're suggesting we leave the wood to rot rather than try to get some value from them?

NEMESIS:
The softwood dispute with the Americans has cost more.
And the American side is not bargaining in good faith.
This dispute is causing many trade negotiators to seriously question if Canada can really benefit from NAFTA.
The wood does not rot, it changes colour and makes it unattractive to buyers, although some niche marketers have exploited this to advantage.

nemesis
so liberal policies are better for labour in the long run? would you mind explaining that statement for me. Don't hold back cause I'm really looking forward to this one.

ron erwin
if a corrupt government abrigates it's constitutional resposibilities by giving lavish tax breaks to wealthy citizens and corporations and thereby neglecting societal infastructure maintenance we end up with a structural deficit. i.e. taxes are supposed to pay for roads and schools and healthcare and police and public shitters in downtown vancouver etc.

NEMESIS:

It appears that I am not the only one waiting for you to support your comment that the Liberals "are better for labour in the long run".

Besides the patronizing tone, the statement makes no sense and cries out for an explanation - which you have yet to provide.

That sounds like run-away capitalism! Lets continue to issue more building permits, because we have to build more roads, sewers, schools etc. Instead of assessing the state of existing and determinining if it's sustainable. Because even Budd Campbell would have to agree that we really don't know where sustainable is, but the "experts" believe we are passed it. Whatever.... Lets not stop for a minute to evalute the state of our affairs, please do march forward without a plan.... I feel so much better about doing that, rather than any comprehensive longterm planning. It's like arguing with Ron Erwin, it's pointless. It's like trying to find logic from Nemesis' posts.
Show me that what we have now, is sustainable, and I will buy into your "build more" arguments, but until then shut the **** up.

Flat lux; Your attempt to rain on Alberta's parade is hopeless. Their public debt as a % of GDP is 3.4%. It's 27.4% in BC and a whopping 41.2% in Nova Scotia. Raisung taxes won't help. We need to grow our economy as they did in Alberta.
Public sector unions are what's dragging us down.

RON ERWIN:

Since firefighters belong to a public sector union, I am sure that you will happily watch your house burn down rather than let unionized workers try to put out the fire.
The Alberta economy is oil based. That's what allows buffoons like Klein to become premier, not sound fiscal policy.
Up with public sector unions!

BC has lot's of resources, the problem is that the NDP Govt. had a moratorium on almost everything. B.C.'s economy is now the fastest growing in Canada thank's to the B.C. Liberal Party has got us back in business. We no longer are like Saskatchewan with their NDP Govt. repressing the standard of living of their citizens.
Klein is hardly a bafoon, in fact he is one of the greatest leaders Canada ecer produced.
If my house catches fire I am served by a volunteer fire dept.
You don't have to be in a Public Sector Union to be capable. I would venture to say the oppisite is true.

RW. What would you rather have? "Overpaid civil servants" or multinational corporate gangsters draining the economy and taking all the benefits abroad from BC. Which may jack up the phoney GDP and Growth figures, but leaves people starving, in foodbank lineups. Ed Deak, Big Lake.

RON ERWIN:

You are free to indulge in your fantasy that Klein is a great leader.
I am free to indulge in my fantasy that he is a buffoon. A drunken one.
The BC libs are crooks and liars riding a low interest policy they didn't create. Let's see how long it lasts until Ralph's expensive oil drives inflation up and the central bank responds by raising rates. There is already a labour shortage threatening to bring a slow down to the economy.
It doesn't take great leadership to provide something you have to greedy countries in need. You could be premier of Alberta. No one would notice as long as you kept the taps open.

Ron Erwin,

I was a unionized forrest firefighter. Yah, there is a lot of downtime firefighting compared to other forestry jobs.

However, go have a look at the effect of unionizing forest firefighters. The efficiency gains were dramatic. Notwithstanding that global warming has made for some of the hottest years in history, the amount of timber protected for the forrest industry (i.e. subsidized) is dramatic.

When you see lazy firefighters by the hundreds on those big fires that get out of hand, you are looking at contractors. This is how all fires were fought before unionization.

Now, 94% of fires are stopped at under 4 hectares by the unionized initial attack. Now, we could have a discussion of the pros and cons of this, but my point is that the efficiency gains that resulted are well documented.

We simply need less involment by PSU's in our economy. Monopolies are not fair to citizens. Ak anyone trying to buy beer from the LCBO today. I am sure they would like a choice this weekend. But they are from Ontairio whre they have all been brainwashed by the Ontario Teachers Union leftist dogma. That's why they elect people like Ms. Parrish.
Long live the country of Western Canada ( without Sask. )

Hmmm.... we can't just be " Western Canada."
How about the "Peoples Democratic Republik of Western Canada." or.... "The United Western Provinces of Canadian America." How about just "Hockeyland....?"

Jester; Easy answer. Their policies are economically driven. A better economy means more jobs, more investment, and more net migration, which benefits unions. Sorry about the delay, I thought you were joking when you said you needed an explanation for such a simple and straightforward concept.

Oh no, poor Ron. Always looking out for BC's elite. Conservative leaders are well know and documented for giving out
large tax cuts to the most wealthy and then looking for ways to cut cost via programs or good paying jobs. The net result is a short fall in revenue justifying more cuts. AKA the term race to the bottom. Not reported by the MSM but well documented is the absolute failures of this policy. If you check the records of the Harrisite gov or the Reagan Gov in the US, even Gordo's the facts are on record. Reagan drove the US into a major recession that they are still paying for today. he almost tripled the dept , Harris left the Ont economy with a additional 6 billion in dept, he basically wreaked health care , education and the environment is a toilet . All for what, for nothing but extra dept.
And Gordo the drunk, all the brutal cuts to make up for his blushing tax cut to the most wealthy. Sorry Gordo but low interest rates and high commodity prices will not save you. I know Ron the MSM just hates unions etc but don't be a stooge, more Wal Mart jobs do nothing for the economy.

Unions are responsible for most workers gains over the past century and have raised the standard of living for non union jobs also. I think the right wing gov just raises the question of gays etc and you lose all control and start talking in tongues, I think that's the issue, stop being such a good Christian Ron. And explain to us all how more good paying jobs is bad for BC, BC Rail , ICBC and all BC gov liquor stores make $$$ for BC not some US corporation , they keep cost low and raise money for BC, except BC Rail that is now is US hands.

P.S Ralf is a little fat ball of jelly who is riding the oil rush. About a classy as a snake in snot. AkA your idol.

RON ERWIN:

You sound, in print, like a dog barking loudly out of anger, hunger, or fear and it seems impossible to appeal to your sense of rationality. Do you have one? Just in case you do, let's review:

You say that:
-Ralph Klein is a great leader.
-The NDP government in Saskatchewan is repressing the standard of living for residents there.
-Monopolies are not fair to citizens.

I say that:
My views on Ralph K haven't changed since my comments 2 hours ago.

The NDP in Saskatchewan was RE-ELECTED mainly because they restored credibility to government there after the, er, Conservatives ran the economy into the ground during their corrupt administration. It's actually quite a lovely place, have you ever visited? It definitely belongs in Canada, a real country, unlike your fantasy world of Western Canada.

I infer by "monopolies", you mean public sector unions. Your brain must be a frightening place with so many zany "ideas" zinging around in it. The humour you provide is irritatingly therapeutic.

Creating a sustainable economy that measures effects on humans and not just corporations, would include the understanding that it is management that creates waste, not labour. This is right out of The Wealth of Nations, the capitalist bible. Must have been authored in a more "enlightened" time. A large segment of the retail price of goods reflects management waste, not higher labour costs. It's not only the cost, it's the productivity. It's a large oversimplification to suggest that a government's primary role is that of Head Server to corporate interests.

what good is a gordo inspired mcjob in a province where a teardown costs 400k.
besides which the fibs record kind of points towards weakening or outright destroying unions as opposed to fostering their growth with your so-called inspired "slash and burn" economic policy. whatever short term wealth that is irresosibly extracted is hardly shared with joe-sixpack but goes into the profit column of some corporation, the foreign shareholder pockest and don't forget the vastly underpayed executives who play golf and **** hookers with gordo.

Don't forget the golf membership is either provided by the corp. or it is tax deductible.
File the hookers under entertainment.

Jester; You're quite something. Now you're accusing the honourable premier of consorting with hookers. Great level of debate here.

Wow! I agree with the goddess of vengeance! Gordo cannot be consenting with hookers, he's too busy ****ing the people of BC.
"Honourable" is in the eye of the beholder. Driving drunk, lying to citizens, and attacking constitutional rights are strange criteria for honour.

Camgra; I recently took a drive through small town Alberta and parts of Saskachewan near Lloydminister.
You would not believe the properity in Alberta. Yes they have oil but it goes beyond that. An illustration of the difference between B.C. and Alberta can be seen by viewing the activities in the Telus strike.
Telus's wages are fine, noyone disputes that. Where the workers disagree is with Telus wanting the right to contract out some of their work. In Alberta the workers have no problem with this. In fact many of the Union Telus workers have already crossed the picket line. You won't hear this in our local press.
To hear Jim Sinclair out there barking on the picket line you would think Telus were about to lay everone off.
Albertans are not about to be sucked into this rhetoric. They know they have good jobs and good pay and they just want to get on with it.
Crossing the border at Lloydminister is kind of like crossing from San Diego to Mexico.
I guess you like Mexico over Alberta.

Mexico has nicer beaches and no Ralph Klein.
Guess you are right.
Alberta has no culture of it's own, it is borrowed from Texas.
Alberta is a one party state.
Up with public AND private sector unions!

Having moved from the cultureless wasteland of Southern Alberta, I have observed a few things worth noting. In Alberta towns and cities are made up of communities. Communities that host or are a focal point for activities. Some have built and maintained private facilities for sports and leisure. They all have one thing in common, volunteer board of directors. It is quite likely you will have conversations with your neighbors because everyone is informed as to what is going on at the "community centre." Young and old meet and spend time at these locations. They fund raise and volunteer at Bingo and work the concession stand to help offset the cost of maintaining this facility and keeping the cost of sports programs like hockey affordable. If you don't like the way things are, then you can run for an executive postion and serve to affect change. Mostly everyone is there for a common goal. It's why Calgary was so successful hosting the 88 Winter Games. The base of volunteers to draw from was huge. People still lean over the fence to talk to their neighbors. Calgary is a people place. Have a beer and BBQ with the neighbors kinda place. Put on the greatest outdoor show on earth once a year kinda place. Sure you won't find many people that share the opinion that the world is doomed and headed for hell, but they work hard and play hard and one day will wake up to realities and they'll be the first to act.
Here, if you lean over the neighbours fence to see what's happening the police will soon be at your door. There is a large population of twits here, social misfits that don't understand the value of good neighbours. The difference is subtle because people are people all across this great land. But when everyone from every other province is asking "what's with those people in B.C." you know we have a perception problem. That and the fact that some of you really are flakes. You look sour, and sometimes angry too. Quite unattractive really, and doesn't give off a very positive light. It's partly about communication. Everyone is wondering what it takes to get a return phone call out here. I invite you to join in and maybe I hear from you, maybe not? Sorry, but very soon those calls will stop coming your way. Is that the reason you are so perplexed? We hang out with Canadians from all over the country, the maritimers are a blast! Winnipegers are a tough bunch of assholes but a funny bunch just the same....
and the home grown talent is warm and freindly they just need to be loved!!
So lighten up, all you tight assed snobs, it's Friday, call that person back who invited you out this weekend, and declare! Damn it! I'm proud to be a BCer and I'm going to have fun this weekend! Then get back to work on Tuesday and be there on time for a change.

Dear Ron Erwin;
1.Telus alienated it's workers a few years ago when they fired thousands of their techies, converting themselves from a telecommunications company into a cheque cashing company. They fired few from the accounting department, so the bills were sure to be delivered on time, but they lost the ability to properly maintain equipment or provide service. They cashed your cheques very promptly, though, and lost no part of the ability to collect.
The employees know well that if allowed to contract out, they will hire unqualified half trained bozos for peanuts, and continue to coast on the well maintained system until it deteriorates enough that the customers refuse to pay again, and the government starts to threaten action once more.
In short, Texas culture.

2. Mexico is exactly what the Texbertans think we are. Welcome to the global community.

See? No one calls him anymore!

Telus also has serious debt issues, arising from their desire to get big. This does not create wealth and actually makes the company a poor investment choice. It is time to reregulate this sector.

....so your investment choice of the week is?

If the investor has no qualms and steady nerves, gold as a commodity or shares in gold mining companies. The price per ounce has risen steadily for some time and may continue as long as bombs go off in train stations.

I'd be careful, I don't like rigged games.

As of right now, 50% of Telus workers have crossed the picket line. That's extrordinary. They don't need to fear losing their jobs. Yes Telus did rid itself of many workers. Have anyone talked to any of these former employees. I have, they were giver huge buyouts and maintained their pensions. A couple of years later they are making more money than they ever did before as they are now working for yes, Telus. As subcontractors.
Why is BC so flaky about things like this ?
I should have said above those workers who crossed are in Alberta.

The least you can do, RON E, is cite your source for such a fantastic statistic. Alberta makes the use of SCABS legal.

Also, if you dom't mind, please explain how they can pay huge payouts and rehire the same guys for more money as a cost cutting measure.

Sounds like it would have to be either some kind of magic trick or just total bullshit. If you spend more you haven't cut your costs, have you?

Hey come on Camgra and Bailey. You guys are certainly asking a lot of poor old Ron.

He's about the only neo-con who works the weekend shift here on Tyee so at least give him credit for giving others a target 24/7.

Camgra, the Telus-TWU battle is covered by the Canada Labour Relations Code, which unfortunately allows scabbing regardless of where.

In fact the feds more or less ignore the picket line. That's why Telus ran to the BC Supreme Court to get injunctions limiting the TWU's right to picket in BC.

I do find it interesting however, that the BC Supreme Court will normally ignore picket line issues when it isn't an exparte injunction by an employer agent being sought.

Let me know the next time you see the supreme court taking the side of workers in a picket line dispute.

The judges will as often as not be vacationing in California and we all know they only respond when officials come with hat in hand and a quick plane home.

It also helps if the crime suspect happens to be left wing and pro-labour.

hey al i quess you can call me neo -con #2

lets face it ,,telus is in a highly competetive market,, if your good at your job,[for dogfucking sakes] what is there to worry about,, i,m a free agent.....

the light...

the best thing about gordon cambell is that you never see him.he,s nothing but a closet control freak.

thats good for all of us, we don,t want to see gordo,,,,

this province is set for the next 15 years, quit complaining, and take advantage of the
opps that present themselves..

jim sin

oh wait a min

bud light

Ron, from what I understand, a "structural deficit" is one where the revenue is not guarenteed to be there when the bill comes due and the consequences of not meeting the revenue require borrowing to cover the bill. I find your take on the firemen ironic. Would you pay and tip each fireman independantly, according to preformance, for donating his time putting out your fire and saving your stuff? Could you afford house insurance with only a "volunteer" service? Should we subscribe to a firefighting service like a home monitoring agency? Just what does a libertarian do when his house catches on fire besides eat every word he ever said regarding lazy union bums and shabby government workers?

Hey budlight. Thanks, but I already call you something else!

clubofrome, you make some excellent points. British Columbia is full of free loader lefties who live on basement suites in Van East, smoke dope and snivel about how bad the goverment is for not giving them handouts.

They lack of success in the land of plenty we live in could never be their own doing: it is always a faceless scapegoat such as "Globalisation" or "Capitalism" that is to blame.

We working people tend to ignore them because we are too busy working in a boom economy and using our free time to enjoy our beautiful city with our families.

Snivel away, lefties, it is a holiday and I am going to enjoy the fruits of my success with my loved ones.

Hey Working Man, good for you.

However, I am surprised that such an upright dude as yourself would already be half way through the day and still not enjoying the fruits of your success with your loved ones.

Got the kids working?

You were here only a few minutes ago trying to define anyone who isn't in lockstep with your narrow view of the world as vile Eastend subterranians.

Your "loved ones", no doubt are doing their own thing because they know who is number one with you, big guy.

No need to have a faceless scapegoat any more 'cause we've got Working Man to laugh at.

You seem like such a pleasant role-model for those "loved ones".

Oh, by the way, Tyee's readership extends a bit beyond the East end and for that matter , your "beautiful city".

So what happened Working Man. "Loved ones" stuck in the city for another long hot weekend?

I point out to Working Man above that It's only a boom economy for some. There are others who are deliberately given the honour of paying for your chances for success by being completely left out of it.

Homelessness has exploded, you must have noticed. Do you see no connection?

Public works, public property, taxes paid by us specifically for social programs so that all could share in our booms as well as the inevitable busts, regardless of their health, skills or fitness, all these things have been diverted into the pockets of those who give money to those who are supposed to guard them for us.

Very convenient, I guess, to be able to dismiss a huge percentage of your society by calling them names for not being you.

But not very true. It's a shame when you have to depend on untruths to justify your attitudes and behaviour. It means that, for you, the truth will not make you free. It will only expose you.

Working Man, Please be sure to note that nowhere in my post above do I label anyone freeloader lefties. My post was more in response to defend Alberta as having no culture. While BC has the better lanscape, landscape is not culture. People are. In my experience the people of Calgary are mostly a friendly bunch. It can be a pleasant place to live. The dfference here is subtle but there is a difference. I'll put up with the few mutants because of the ocean, I need to sail.
There is intolerance on both sides, left, right whatever you label them, and I am sensitive to those extremes. They are both bullying the other side usually with more name calling and finally an old fashioned Fuc* you contest. If you truly have respect for others then you must allow them their opinion and try and persuade them otherwise. After the debate if nothing is resolved the bully starts throwing punches, because that's what he learned in the sandbox. Simple really. It's OK to admit you don't understand it. I don't understand half the stuff I read or see for that matter, so you have to ask questions and listen for the answers. All is not how it appears, would be my take on things.

hey "working man" you sound sound like a republican to me. As Howard Dean so aptly noted, most republicans haven't done an honest days work in their whole lives. Silver spoon, trust fund, draft dodging hypocrit scumbags like mass murderers bush and cheney for instance.
You don't agree with my comment maybe you and I can meet to discuss things in person?

Classy post jester. Insulting and threatening posters whose opinions you don't agree with. Seems to be a lot of that on this site. I know the left is being slowly but surely ostracized from mainstream society, but must you be so desperate? What if he is a republican? It is a legitimate democratic political party that is certainly much more honest and forthright than the Liberal Party of Canada.

You and your self-serving ilk are the real threat, not only to me, but to our entire planet and everything that lives here.
Think about that next time you get in your lincoln excavator to demonstrate to the unwashed masses your lofty status in our backwards society.
As for the republican party are you joking?
Their dishonesty and repeated attacks on real democracy are unprecendented and are certain to expedite the demise of not only their society but ours aswell.
Why don't you read "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" and get back to me.
Thank "omnipotent being" that the fascist harper yet again snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.
As for "working man" I only wish for once to meet one of you face to face. Not to harm or threaten but to try and come to terms with such profound ignorance and malevolence.
Finally, I was fortunate enough to take a course in atmosheric chemistry, and I'm pretty damn sure pumping trillions of tons of carbon dioxide into our atmosphere is changing our weather patterns. If you can find someone who can, with science, convince me otherwise please do.

Only when the last tree has been cut down
Only when the last river has been polluted
Only when the last fish has been caught
Only then will you realize you can't eat money
(A Cree prophecy)

Personaly I don't think we'll have to wait for the last of anything to disappear. It's quite likely that enough damage has already been done. The residual of that and the continued efforts of 6+ billion will erode our life support system away soon enough. But that's out of our hands! So back to the topic...was I on the left or right side???

Allan,

Thanks for pointing out that the union is a federal one.

the beetle problem started long before the ndp were in power (1973 - 76?) and could have been burned out before they became an epidemic. It is our interference with the natural order of things that has allowed the beetles to spread. I was skidding bug wood in 83 on the northern border of tweedsmuir park and there was a lot of debate about burning them out in the park and they should have.

The forest companies have been spreading the bugs faster then they could ever have spread on their own. Standing green timber infested with beetles is cut and hauled as far as 100 hundred miles one way to be milled.

Hell in the early 90s they were hauling wood from the yukon to the sawmill at the east end of burns lake, over a hundred trucks a day were hauling down 37 at one point.

The forest companies have to much political power and it does not matter in my opinion which government is in power they still get their way because the average person doesn't know or care what is really going on. Period.

What does the average person living in downtown vancouver or recently moved from back east know about the devistation going on in our forests? Most of the people I talked to at a party last night didn't even know where burns lake is, there were two of us out of about 25 that were from this Province. That in itself is part of the problem. Not one had ever been to rupert or off of the trans canada on their way here to retire and live the good life as they called it, golf being more important then our environment. What chance does the environment and the industries like fishing and forestry have for future generations with the general populace uninformed and ignorant of what is really happening. All of the people at that party were from either Alberta or Toronto.

ron irwin I asked if you were an american because you seem to have the same values as a good republican supporter of bush, and if you are an american which I believe you to be why are you on a canadian site trying to spew your right wing rhetoric?

It is to late to attempt a revival of the american image here, none of the people at that party last night had anything good to say about americans like you bushites. We all know americans that we like and respect but for the most part bombing children with smart bombs doesn't go over very well with Canadians!

LMAOROTF erwin you dolt you have got to be kidding, klein is not smart he is a good bullshitter when he is sober. I have worked in alberta a lot and their prosperity is directly linked to the fact that they have tarsands and oil and they are paying one hell of a price to have it extracted by american corporations.

Did you know for example that as long as any of the corps are doing upgrades and expansions their taxes are reduced? This is one of the reasons they haven't brought in the venezualon’s to work for ledcor and flint, the Alberta taxpayers did not appreciate the oil companies wanting and getting huge tax breaks and then bringing in foreign workers so the workers will have to wait for a little while until things settle down. I think they are only paying 1% in royalties during major projects.

This is part of the reason the highway is not being upgraded between Edmonton and fort mac, the corps think it is the responsibility of the government and the government thinks the corps should show some appreciation for the nice tax breaks and pay for the upgrade. Meanwhile more and more people are getting killed and maimed on the highway of death, the diversified bus accident is a perfect example, the driver was unable to change gears to turn the bus around got stuck and the r.c.m.p. escort with flashing lights drove off minutes before the semi drove into them. Btw klein is a major share holder and nothing is being done to enforce maintenance on the buses which are breaking down on a regular basis in minus 30-50, it is inconvenient in the summer but could be deadly in the winter. I am sorry but in my opinion klein is a self serving drunken moron.

hey clubofrome b.c. used to be like that, I am from northern b.c. and it used to be one big community if you stopped on the side of the highway to take a leak even truckers would slow down to see if you were ok. Now a pregnant women can have her car break down on a side road and locals will drive by without stopping in minus 20, this happened!

B.c. changed after expo in my opinion a lot of very unfriendly people moved here from east of the b.c. alberta border and brought their unfriendly ways with them, this came up at a party last night and I got pretty riled, someone from toronto complaining about how unfriendly we are here so I asked how many people were from b.c., point made!

Billies little side show changed this province, that and a large amount of developers and land pimps! When people started snobbing us we snopped back and here we are, very unfriendly almost hostile with good reason we got screwed!

Is that Billie of Larry, Curly and ...Billy?
Before my time, I was prospering under the care of Lougheed/Getty/Klein during that era...
The seniors in Alberta seem to be more than a bit fed up with rising costs and reduced benefits, but hey the province is deficit free! Perhaps Albertans and Klein will just fall out of love and that will leave room for who...? The Liberals. Egad.

I see you admit that you are very unfriendly and almost hostile cause you got screwed. So that pretty much cancels out your other observation about people moving here after expo. Developers move in and soon you have the biggest retirement community outside of Florida and Arizona. All of this has been happening for decades. Who's to blame? Monsanto, that's who!! We all are. Globalization, Free trade, the War on Terror, the media (MSM) all created to perpetuate and even excelerate the accumulation of wealth, at the expense of all future generations.

I don't mean you personally of course, but BC in General. Get to know your neighbors and work for your community. Be charitable and mind your manners. Quit cutting in front of other people, just wait your turn for a change.
Maybe then you'll see a friendlier side to those around you. Try this, wave at a passing motorist instead of flipping them off. I shouldn't have to be telling you this stuff...

like I said we got snobbed so we snobbed back, don't go out of my way to be friendly or unfriendly but I have noticed that the people moving here are not friendly! They are not short of opinion either!

I have spent a lot of time in alberta and they are not always that friendly either, have gotten some pretty dirty looks with my b.c. plates in the smaller towns, quite funny actually. I go to Calgary once in a while and Edmonton a lot Fort Mac the most!

What pisses me off is people who come here with the attitude that they are better then us because they are from some where else, if they don't like the way we are then go back where you came from!

Billy bennet one of the biggest crooks in our history in my opinion, next to gordo of course. Do you really think the liberals could be worse then klein how could it possibly get any sleazier then that little drunk? The guy is a buffoon, I like the story about his wife being on welfare when he ran for council and his supporters jeez ralph maybe you should get her off welfare. I do not have a very high opinion of him in case you didn't notice!

You shouldn't let others moods or attitudes affect your own well being. It's a sign of great wisdom to be able to ignore those around you and still maintain your own well being. To not react to someone who attacks you or doesn't return your greeting in the morning takes discipline and conviction and also understanding that the person that doesn't say hello back, isn't for or against you. They are probably barely aware of you. So that's where awarness is a sign of maturity. To be aware of others so you can respect them. You don't have to agree, but you do have to respect their opinions. That's the key to diversity. Gentle persuasion applied relentlessly!