Jow come we never see any people from Iraq at any of these war protests ? I suspect you would have trouble finding anyone.

Maybe if you went to one.

Their are many minority groups at the rallies, and people from all walks of life. Last year we had 50,000 people show up , don't forget that Saddam was a puppet of the US and they overseen most of his massacres and supplied the arms, no one voted for Saddam, no one liked him. So first we install the puppet and the people suffer and then we bomb and occupy and the people suffer, their were other ways to deal with Iraq, the US record is not looking good when it comes to supporting dictators. SO show up and show you care,

Saturday, March 19. 11:30am
Gather at Seaforth Peace Flame Park (South end of Burrard Bridge) Vancouver for
March to 1:00pm. Rally at Sunset Beach, Music & fun Speaker: Walden Bello, Focus on the Global South, Walden is just returning from the 5th World Social Forum held in Porte Alegre Brazil.

The Doukhabors hold regular Peace Rallies. Thousands of them will gather for a weekend at their cultural centre in Brilliant, across the Columbia from Castlegar, bring in speakers, filmmakers, street theatre activists from around the world; they prepare and serve three hot meals a day, and spontanously break out in four-part a capella choral singing too, in Russian. Children gather in a different building or outside where they can run around, make noise, and do all sorts of different activities under the supervision of various adults and older kids. Everyone's welcome.

The Quakers also hold regular meetings.

There seem to be an awful lot of happy people in the streets of Beirut these days. Can anyone remember a demonstration in Vancouver against Syria's occupation of Lebanon?

Did you ever try to organise one, Norman? The same goes for anyone else: anyone can organise a rally for or against any particular issue or cause. Sure beats taking potshots from the sidelines at those who do turn out for demos.

Actually Norman, Lebanon seems about evenly split, for and against Syria. (And foreign troops should get out of all countries not their own.) And who the fuck is the US to be pontificating about one country occupying another-, and the Syrian occupation of Lebanon skewers the outcome of free election possibilities there? Why does Iraq again immediately come to my mind? (I remember when the US and Israel were relieved that Syria's presence had put a lid on the civil war there-, as I'm sure you do as well.)

The main source of unrest in the Middle East, indeed around the world, and the driving force of the proliferation of nuclear weapons and "terrorism" ( One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.) is the global rampage of the US Empire. Resolve that problem, forcing US imperialism back onto its own territory, and ending its military and cash support of the religious jewish state of Israel, as well as numerous anti-democratic regimes everywhere, would quickly resolve this problem-, forcing Israel to suddenly be realistic in its neighbourhood, and mitigate against the rage that fills much of the Middle East, that is the source of your so-called terrorism.

And by the by, the only threat posed to us by terrorism from that part of the world, comes about as a result of our involvement with, running interference for, and acting as an apologist for the US Empire and Zionist Israel, (populated largely by European Jewry, as a legacy of resolving the issue of Nazi Germany and greater European anti-semitism, by foisting it onto the Palestinians-, who are supposed to then submit "peacefully", lest they be described by such as yourself, as "terrorists".) Canada is such a Norman Spector Nation, it is pathetic.

The MAIN threat to peace in the current world is posed by this particular axis of the US Empire, and its maintenance on Middle Eastern Arab soil, of the Zionist state of Israel. End that, the fundamental problem is resolved, along with the issue of going some ways to taming an out of control US Empire.

The best outcome for us all in Iraq, including those US citizens who want to see an end to the Endless War scenario of the PNAC (Project for a New American Century)cabal, is that the US Empire should be defeated in Iraq. That outcome especially, would reduce the threat to us all, posed by this aggressive new face of fascism represented by Neocon USA. (Hitler and his Nazis were elected to power in Germany too, which made them no less dangerous to everyone else.)

Your star spangled red, white and blue slip is showing, Norman.

I wish I'd heard about that event in Castlegar earlier. Being near enough, I would have attended it, RBMFC.

Pretty sad that the province's most ubiquitous right-wing talking head also sees the need post comments on alternative media sites. Perhaps Norman's worried people are going to stop reading CanWest's crap now that the internet is levelling the playing field...

Face it: most of you are ideologically-driven and couldn't give a fig about the people. You'll side with the most horrible fascists and dictators if it gives you an opportunity to poke Uncle Sam in the eye.

Isn't it amazing how supportive America is of Syria when it wants to extract confessions from political prisoners? Norman, you sure love a fallacy. I doubt anyone here supports Syria's dictatorship (or that of any country, including Pakistan). It's just that we contrast the effects of their presence in Lebanon with the period during the 1980s when the country was largely occupied by Israel and devastated by civil war. Right now, the Americans want credit for peace in the region and so they feel free to interfere even at the risk of blowing that country apart in another civil war. No one in Lebanon elected the US to butt into their politics. At the global level, America is a horrible fascist dictatorship.

Coyote, the contact phone number for the Brilliant Cultural Centre is:(250) 365-3613. I don't know the name of the Peace Conference's main organizer, although Peter Verigin is the cultural group's main facilitator. You could always leave a message and ask ...

Coyote, the contact phone number for the Brilliant Cultural Centre is:(250) 365-3613. I don't know the name of the Peace Conference's main organizer, although Peter Verigin is the cultural group's main facilitator. You could always leave a message and ask ...

I have no contact information for the Quakers. Their meetings take place in the Argenta-Meadow Creek area.

Quit picking on the kindergarten kids Norman. Someday they'll learn to chew before they swallow.

" Norman, you sure love a fallacy." writes RBMFC.

Ain't it the bloody truth! And more than one or two right wingnuts here, lead with their chins besides Norman.

"Someday they'll learn to chew before they swallow." says appropriately monikered Harpo.

And maybe, besides Norman and Sdgreen, we left-wingers will finally be able to teach the rest of you wingnuts how to speak in more than single word, or at best, single sentence grunts. We might even be able to teach you how to prepare your ideas and string them together in paragraphs, so that what passes for your ideas, are perhaps "some" intelligible, at least. (Though, on reflection, this is probably too much to expect, like using the po-po, instead of doing it all over here, like untrained diarrhoeal babies.)

But then, there's no doubt, right wingnuts know how to swallow it. :-) Eh, Norman?

I think the important thing, Coyote, is to keep bringing it back to actual documentation:

http://tinyurl.com/4l4bu

I'm beginning to suspect this isn't the real Norman Spector. Much as I dislike the real NS' political views, I had thought he was more erudite than to play the silly game of: "If you oppose the invasion of Iraq, then you support Saddam" . Talk about a kindergarten mindset! And Slim Harpo: stick to playing the blues.

slim, the good news is that few Canadians turned out to support the Iraqi fascists fighting against a democratically-elected government. They never demonstrated against Saddam, they've never demonstrated against the Assads--any dictator will do for these ideologically driven folks.

SteveH, not only does he resort to the kindergarten style reasoning that lumps everyone who doesn't support American fascism in with those that support dictators (even though those self-same dictators have been propped up by the Americans for years), but he also resorts to the typical prayer-wheel logic: "If I repeat myself over and over, I don't need a thing called evidence; by the Force of my endless repetition, it will just come troooooo."

Norman, Uncle Sam is the one who has been consorting with dictators. Only they are kind of fickle with their choices, waltzing with one dictator until a more benefical one comes along. Saddam was one of America's closest mid-east allies during the 1980's and received substantial US military and financial aid until the music stopped. I wrote this down recently and no longer remember who said it but it's quite apt all the same:

"To applaud the US Army's capture of Saddam Hussein, and therefore in retrospect justify it's invasion and occupation of Iraq, is like deifying Jack the Ripper for disemboweling the Boston Strangler. And that after a quarter-century partnership in which the Ripping and Strangling was a joint enterprise. It's an in-house quarrel. They're business partners who fell out over a dirty deal."

...The headline said "Anti-War Movement Very Much Alive" ...possibly true....but perhaps a moot point....as "being alive" and having 15 million people plus in the streets --and a few thousand out on a Bridge and a Park in Vancouver...hasn't thusfar, and won't amount to a hill of beans in halting, reversing, dismantling Empire's permanent war economy that has besieged this war-weary, troubled planet.

I'm not sure what it will take.

Even most lefties were too ashamed to demonstrate in support of fascist murderers fighting against democracy in Iraq.

Poor Norman, he is confused about the demonstration. The demonstration was against the fascist murderers in Iraq. It was against the US fascists. Remember, it is the 'insurgents' who are fighting against the imposed US Capilist, so called democracy, in Iraq. Remember, Norman, democracy cannot be imposed. It is something people have to want and then fight for.

"They're business partners who fell out over a dirty deal" and that goes for the US in regards to Saudi Arabia and Syria, too.

I wonder what the odds are that the Shiite Party in Iraq turns into a fascist dictatorship over the next decade? That would make an interesting wager...

Norman knows well enough that the history of the US Empire consorting with dictatorial regimes is legend around the world, and is the wellspring source of the rage in these places. So long as it is their trained seal regime that facilitates the US Empire need for a home grown militarism that will repress its own people for them however, whilst the US absconds with all the oil, or whatever else it is of particular strategic interest to them, that is merely a practical global reality that must be accepted. (Example, the Saudi Royal Family, Musharraf in Pakistan, and for so long as they did what they were told, even the earlier Noriega regime in Panama, now in jail in Florida after that earlier US invasion, even currently the dictatorial Royal Family in Jordan, so long as they merely run interference for Israel in the Arab world, or the present anti-democratic regime in Egypt that represses its own people, and yes, even Sadaam was their man in Iraq, whom they provided the gas used against the Kurds and the Iranians. We won't even get into the former Peacock Throne regime in Iran, that was their puppet regime until it was overthrown from within by a popular uprising.)

But Norman actually knows all this, it is merely that he is onside with that policy of His Master's Voice in Washington. He is "ideologically" committed to defending its world wide rampage against the non-jewish people of the Middle East and elsewhere. That is what these people's are there for, in his mind, these untermenschen (lesser people, subhumans)-, the good of the Greater US Empire for which we are a toady state ourselves, and thus should be expected all, to play the same toady role of a Norman Spector.

And for so long as Sadaam was useful to the needs of the US Empire and repressed his own people's democratic ambitions, like Noriega in Panama around the same time, they were encouraged, financed and armed. The problem with them both became, that they developed ambitions of their own, for themselves and their societies, and sought to correct, in the case of Sadaam, previous "partitioning" losses imposed by a previous British Imperialism (Kuwait). Noriega, on the other hand, worked to recover the territorial control of the Panama Canal from the US Empire.

At which point they both had to go, and suddenly became the enemies of democracy, US Empire style.

But, like I say, Norman knows all that. It is merely that he is a committed ideological marionette of this rising US Empire fascism, that carries its own particular threats for us as well, in our territorial northern waters, their desired shared/favoured status access to our water and other resources around which NAFTA developments are already making it doubtful we are in full sovereign control any longer.

The source of the current world's tensions is well enough known by everyone. There is no serious mystery to it. Even Norman knows this, I'm damned sure. He is merely ideologically committed to not acknowledging it, and obfuscating around it. A rational analysis and explanation has can only be, that he is "one" of "their" men in Canada. (But then we have so many of them, who control the economic, political and intellectual life of this country.)

Even NDP'ers like Jack Layton and Alexa and Carole James are too embarrassed to be identified any more with demonstrations like these. Reading this thread, it's no wonder why.

Someone please hand noman an antacid tablet. He keeps repeating himself and spews indigestible nonsense over the forum.

Or better yet, investigate the Amnesty International website which archives the history of abuses:

http://amnesty.org

Though I am sometimes fond of it myself Norman, especially with thee and your fellow brownshirts, mere invective and bluster is not a reasoned, evidence based response-, which we are all still waiting to hear from you. Give us something we can sink our teeth into, or don't embarras yourself any longer. Watching a "great man" reduce himself to this common brownshirt level is just too painful, even for us. ;-D

Good morning, Mad Fox. More snow here, though it is already changing to rain.

Even Svend, who went to Ramallah to express solidarity with Yasser Arafat, was too embarrassed to turn out this year in support of Iraqi fascists fighting against democracy. And where, pray tell, was Judy?

CBC reports that tens of thousands have appeared in demonstrations across Canadian cities. Not a bad turn-out at all.

Cheers, Coyote. The area needs snow and rain. Otherwise it will be more droughts and forest fires this upcoming summer. I'm off for another stint in tsunami-land. Interesting how quickly it dropped off the radar. I thought it might hold attention for at least, oh, one or two more seconds.

i must confess, i don't know the current source of the world's tension. is it money, oil, racial intolerance, religion, ignorance ? the list is endless. i do know that as i get old and grey, i'm grateful to the youth that get out and protest as i did in my youth. it seems as though too many of our youth have fallen victim to slick marketing that tells them to spend spend spend rather than think think think.

In truth, barking or whatever your name is, CBC reported, "Tens of thousands of anti-war demonstrators marched through the streets of Canadian, American and European cities on Saturday to mark the second anniversary of the invasion of Iraq....In Toronto, about 2,000 protesters filed through the downtown streets and past the U.S. consulate. They said they wanted to mark their opposition not only to the war and occupation in Iraq but also to potential attacks on Syria and Iran. Demonstrations were also held in Montreal, Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Fredericton, Halifax and Winnipeg, as well as a number of U.S. cities."

I never saw the point of peace marches, even when millions rallied against the American occupation last year. Bellicose regimes ignore them. Given the ugliness, density and contempt of people like Norman Spector, I shall be sure to attend future events. It would behoove the peace movement to send a letter to Carole James and our other political leaders asking her why she didn't attend.

I noticed at least 4 Iraqis at Saturday's rally in
Vancouver. There were probably more there - these were just ones I
recognized.

Speaking of the Syria and Lebanon - there were also a least of
couple of Lebanese in attendance. One Lebanese women actually drove
up from the U.S. to attend the anti-war rally in Vancouver.

After the rally I had the opportunity to have a long conversation
with a group of that included a couple of Iraqi-Canadians,
Lebanese-Canadians and Lebanese-Americans. The two Iraqis had been
to Iraq recently and another one had toured throughout the Mid-East in
the last couple of months. They all agreed that the U.S. occupation
must end, that the U.S. has committed war crimes in Iraq, and that
U.S. policy is making the situation in the Mid-East much more
dangerous.

Of course maybe Norman, who has probably never been to the
Mid-East, knows more than these people.

Most of the world strongly opposed the attack on Iraq, the patently false pretext for pre-emptive warfare (WMD) and the disgraceful American treatment of prisoners of war. This opposition wasn't--and still isn't--an endorsement of Saddam's evil regime, as the right keeps trying to spin it, but simple outrage at America's bullying, hypocrisy and naivete in believing that a display of Western testosterone would do anything but make matters worse in a complex, deeply divided society where common themes include machismo, disdain for the West, grudges that go back centuries and "an eye for an eye".

So the predicted mess has come to pass, along with a small hope that some good can be born of it, if only Bush and everyone else could put the Iraqis' interests first, for a change. Of course we're all speculating here, but were the U.S. to simply walk out of Iraq right now, it might very well make matters worse for the Iraqi people. Continued reliance on U.S. force probably won't help either, not least because the American public will likely soon tire of paying the costs.

It's important to remind the world why military solutions and pre-emptive war (a euphemism for unprovoked aggression) are not the answer. But if we focus on addressing the reality that is Iraq today, I suspect that simplistic answers--like demanding that the U.S. just pull out of Iraq tomorrow--will be no more helpful than their initial invasion was.

"U.S. to simply walk out of Iraq right now, it might very well make matters worse for the Iraqi people." writes Name.

Interesting comments, though I discuss with much of your conclusion. This same thinking, that better US power than letting the Vietnamese resolve their own conflict, went on for a long time in Vietnam as well.

Because let's cut to the chase and stop bullshitting ourselves, now that US Empire power is there, there is no longer any nice guy solution, at least, not bloody likely. So the choice is, dither, as you suggest, which is an argument that effectively winds up maintaining the status quo of brutalizing US power, or get them out of where they didn't belong in the first place, and at least end this imperialist/foreign invader phase of the conflict. Which is going to be done sooner or later anyway, one way or another.

Then at least, what you have left is at least just an Iraqi problem, which they are going to have to work out/fight out at the end of the day anyway. This variation notion of yours, of the white man's burden needs to be exposed for what it is, just more of the status quo- which allows the US to go on killing Iraqis, and driving the divisions there even deeper.

And as for the quisling regime installed by a bullshit exercise of US so-called democracy, they are simply either toast, or they will flee with their masters for the Gulf.

The longer US power is seen as a possible solution, the longer it remains just a foreign occupation, with its baggage of corrupt quisling regimes, the robbing of the precious Iraqi oil resouces, a natural resistance impulse to drive out a foreign occupier, and still in the end, the Iraqis have to resolve the problem through negotiation or armed conflict anyway.

To think otherwise at this point is purely delusional thinking, that still sees US Empire power as the solution.Their ongoing presence only fans the conflict.

As it became in the end anyway in Vietnam, the only real solution now is, that US imperialist troops should be gotten the hell out of there, again, by whatever means-, be it singly or in combination, a world wide peace movement, and/or armed resistance from within Iraqi society itself.

Good intentions at this point, especially those that effectively opt for a continued US presence, is delusion more than the recognition of the nature of the reality.

US Empire troops out NOW!

It is their presence that is destroying Iraqi society. They are the problem.

Name, lefties never demonstrated against Saddam, and they never demonstrated against either Assad. In their ideologically driven world, any fascist dictator is preferable to Uncle Sam--as are the fascists trying to kill Iraqi democracy today.

I agree, Coyote, there is "no nice-guy solution" and I did say that continued reliance on U.S. power isn't the answer either. Pressure to end the occupation is important (though I suspect their budget people are probably doing a far more effective job than protesters in that department at the moment). The best way out for "the Iraqi people" may well be one of those non-straightforward and not-entirely-satisfactory-to-anybody compromises (not dithering) that acknowledges the complexities of the reality that Iraq now faces.

After so much suffering to this point, it would be tragic if an uncontrolled U.S. pull-out (like Russia's flight from Afghanistan) were to leave Iraqis with a brutish new regime like the Taliban or another Saddam. (Of course, we could all then say "We told you so!" but sometimes it's just not worth being right.)

So in addition to pressure to get out ASAP, and accountability for what has happened to date, the U.S. must be made acutely aware that they will be held accountable for handing over power in a way that benefits Iraqi society in the long run.

I disagree, Norm--I'm quite confident that many lefties demonstrated against Saddam until it became clear that Bush was going to invade his country on the WMD pretext. While I certainly can't speak for "The Left", what troubles me deeply is U.S. hyprocisy and short-sightedness in creating and supporting brutal dictators like Saddam when self-interest so dictates, and then taking them out in a swoop of self-righteous indignation when that suits the day's agenda.

Concurrent with Iraq, for example, the U.S. has quietly stepped up support for the new Aliyev regime in Azerbaijan--with its strategic and logistical role on Iran's border and a new $3 billion pipeline set to carry oil to the Caspian Sea--despite heightened reports of torture and other human rights and democratic abuses following elections last year.

It was Jimmy Carter who framed the still-current U.S. doctrine re the Middle East at the height of the 1970s oil crisis, with U.S. self-interest in terms of access to oil clearly stated as the centrepiece of Middle East policy.

It's all pretty creepy, really.

"So in addition to pressure to get out ASAP, and accountability for what has happened to date, the U.S. must be made acutely aware that they will be held accountable for handing over power in a way that benefits Iraqi society in the long run." writes Name. Hmmm. I've changed my mind. (Ehhh! If you ladies can... :-) We are not "so" disagreed. :-)

But especially your response to Norman indicates to me that you really do get it-, more than I had initially, and it turns out, incorrectly thought.

It is creepy.

Thousands rally in Vancouver against war and occupation
 
Close to 4000 people took part in the March 19anti-war action in Vancouver, marching over theBurrard Street Bridge to a rally at Sunset Beach. Music by Kibwe and Dave Quigg's Band entertained thecrowd at the rally, while the Carnival Band helped tolead the march. Father de Cortina from El Salvador spoke on the legacyof U.S.-sponsored repression in his country andthroughout Latin America, and celebrated the memory ofArchbishop Romero, who was murdered 25 years ago. Independent journalist Dahr Jamail spoke on what hehas witnessed reporting from Iraq, including thedevastation of Fallujah and other Iraqi cities.Jamail, who is planning to return to Iraq in May, alsonoted the crucial role that the American anti-warmovement can play in ending the occupation of Iraq. Author and veteran activist Walden Bello expressed hisview that the U.S. is losing the war in Iraq, andurged the anti-war movement to
step up itscoordination and activity with the aim of thewithdrawal of all U.S. troops. Bello emphasized theimportance of Arundhati Roy's call to campaign againstcorporations profiting from the occupation of Iraq. Healso emphasized the importance of ending theoccupation of Palestine, and the need for the anti-warmovement here to demand an end to Canadian involvementin the occupations of Afghanistan and Haiti. A number of local politicians were on hand to showtheir support for peace and justice, including allfive NDP Members of Parliament for B.C. (Bill Siksay,Libby Davies, Nathan Cullen, Peter Julien and JeanCrowder), city councilors Tim Louis, David Cadman andEllen Woodsworth, Parks Board commissioner andVancouver-Langara NDP candidate Anita Romaniuk, andNDP and Green candidates from Vancouver- PointGrey MelLehan and Damien Kettewell.

Norman I would expect you to support the Facists of the USA being you are just a shill for Israel Zionists. The war in Iraq is not about democracy its about resourse "OIL" if this country had nothing of value to the US the US wouldn't be there.Even our own LT General of Canadian Forces and commander of UN forces in Mogadishu
said "Don't trust ANY unilateral Coalition they are driven by self interest" example Black hawk Down. The USA got a bloody nose and they went running. I believe that was from City Speak 03 where you Norman spoke your self, and you your self said in Irael neither side is capable of peace. The USA way of life is threatened because they can't get enough cheap oil so that fat asses can drive their SUVs that get 7 Miles to the gallon to work everyday. the war in Iraq is about money and one would have to be either part of it or brainwashed or blind not to see it. If we don't question these kinds of military actions from taking place then we will see a Hitler all over again. if you look at the situation in The states its getting to look and sound like Hitler's
Germany, they not that far off they just haven't put a certen group of people in death camps yet they just hold them without charges and no day in court. I agree Saadam is an evil bastard But I don't see The US in some central American country to try and liberate the people there from death squads and evil dictators in fact The USA supports those death squads and dictators.

Name, these folks don't care about the Iraqi people; their only objective is to poke Uncle Sam, even if it means turning Iraq over to the fascists fighting against democracy. They don't care about occupation--they've never demonstrated against Syria's occupation of Lebanon. Here's the Canadian Press report on the demonstrations, which is somewhat at variance with the one posted here: "Canadian demonstrations mark second anniversary of U.S. invasion of Iraq

Eilis Quinn
Canadian Press

March 20, 2005

MONTREAL (CP) - Small but noisy protests were held across Canada on Saturday to mark the second anniversary of the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

In Montreal, antiwar demonstrator Denis Morton, 48, hoisted a 1.5-metre skeleton on his back as he prepared for the march through downtown.

"It represents the death and destruction that the war on terror is bringing us," Morton said of the scythe-wielding puppet. "If I stay home and don't do anything it's like saying I accept (the occupation)."

Organizers said over 3,000 people turned out for the march to the U.S. consulate.

The colourful crowd banged drums, chanted slogans and pumped upside-down American flags in the air as they called for the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq.

Marilyn Rheault, 24, travelled from Trois-Rivieres, about 140 kilometres northeast of Montreal, to attend.

She said the Jan. 30 elections in Iraq didn't mean life had improved for the average civilian under U.S. occupation.

"There's a lot of misinformation - that (the Iraqis) have chosen their government so things aren't as bad," Rheault said.

"But it's the contrary, it's not really them that have chosen . . . . We have to send that message to the government - both Canadian and American."

Although the demonstration drew just a fraction of the tens of thousands who clogged downtown Montreal to protest the war in 2003, organizers called the march a success.

Raymond Legault, a spokesman for the antiwar group Echec a la guerre, said thousands of Iraqi civilians died in the war and continue to suffer.

"There's no significant improvement in people's lives," he said. "The people are more and more insecure and more divided then ever. For these reasons we think the occupation should stop immediately. That the troops there should leave."

In Toronto, about 500 protesters snaked through the downtown core, shutting down traffic as some shoppers looked on curiously.

"I've been protesting for some time now and it does seem to make a little difference," said Beth Learn, whose ex-husband dodged the U.S. draft for the Vietnam War in 1969.

"I think Canada ought to open their arms to (draft dodgers). They've nowhere else to go."

Security was especially tight as the crowd marched past the U.S. Consulate. At one point, minor shoving broke out between several protesters and police, but no arrests were made, police said.

A similar number of protesters gathered in Vancouver opposite one of the city's armouries in preparation for a march through downtown.

The marchers included the well-known Raging Grannies, a singing protest group known for their gingham dresses and colourful hats.

In Ottawa, about 100 protesters, mostly young students, waved signs and took over a major intersection a block from Parliament Hill to protest the war.

War is Terrorism with a Bigger Budget, said one sign. Dead Iraqis Don't Vote, said another.

Cheryl Clark, 19, said she came to support the Iraqis.

"We have to show our solidarity with the Iraqi people who are being killed by the occupation," Clark said.

Mark Donald, 18, agreed.

"We have to show George Bush that the world opposes what he's doing in Iraq."

Protests in Fredericton and Halifax also drew about 100 people each.

Antiwar protests were also held Saturday in countries throughout Europe."

Hey Guys! Norman is yanking your chain and SOME of you deserve it.

``People shouldn't expect the mass media to do investigative stories. That job belongs to the 'fringe' media.'' -Ted Koppel

Well, it looks like Norman Spector was wrong about NDP MPs being too embarassed to support an anti-war protest that he believes has been effectively hijacked by those who are simply anti-American and to a degree anti-Israel as well. According to the organizers of the Vancouver rally, all five NDP MPs, including Nathan Cullen from Prince Rupert, attended the rally. BTW, Norm, what did you mean by "where, pray tell, was Judy"?

I personally believe that the invasion of Iraq was a reckless act of poor judgement on the part of both President Bush and Prime Minister Blair, though the latter may have felt he needed to go along lest the Americans be acting alone, without any restraining allies to contend with. The New York Times said it best within a month or two of the war and the failure to find any weapons of mass destruction. Basing go-to-war decisions on intelligence guesstimates (which is all they ever are!) is simply an unreliable practice that cannot be justified.

Can the US now simply cut and run, with Iraq in turmoil? Hardly. Once a great power invades, they must accept the responsibility for what follows. (But if the problems intensify, I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprise if Air Guard no-show G. W. Bush doesn't decide to do just that, cut and run!) The US and Iraq need the help of other Arab and Muslim countries to internationalize and in particular de-Americanize the occupation until there is stability and peace in that country, which will probably take three to five years. That's what John Kerry said and he was right. Too bad for a lot of people that too many American voters were more worried about gay marriage than foreign entanglements!

Budd, You're right. I was wrong. I gave BC's NDP more credit than they deserve. They should be ashamed of themselves for lining up on the side of fascists who are trying to kill Iraqi democracy and a lot of Iraqis in the process. I'm pleased to see, however, that Jack Layton and Alexa had the intelligence not to be seen with these people. Mark, continuing with your metaphor, it's quite amazing what spills out when their chain is pulled, isn't it?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1442261,00.html

In a warped reality

Two years on, the occupiers justify the war by embracing the irrelevant and ignoring the inconvenient

Gary Younge
Monday March 21, 2005
The Guardian

This is a tale of one war, two anniversaries, three different demonstrations - and inconsistencies, contradictions and civilian deaths that are too numerous to count.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/antiwar/story/0,12809,1442245,00.htm l

Tens of thousands mark second anniversary of invasion of Iraq

Monday March 21, 2005

The Guardian

The sun shone and banners waved as thousands snaked through London to Trafalgar Square on Saturday.

Tens of thousands of people - the organisers said 100,000, the police 45,000 - converged outside the US embassy to mark the second anniversary of the start of the Iraq war.

There were also protests in Rome, Madrid, Istanbul, New York and San Francisco. In London a procession headed by two soldiers who had resigned from the army put a black cardboard coffin outside the embassy. Strewn with daffodils, it commemorated civilian deaths in the conflict and bore the words "100,000 dead". Protesters sang: "George Bush, Uncle Sam, Iraq will be your Vietnam."

The demonstration moved to Trafalgar Square, where people gathered to hear speakers on a platform organised by the Stop the War coalition and the Muslim Association of Britain.

Rose Gentle, whose son Gordon, 19, was killed in Basra last year, told the crowd: "Mr Blair needs to know that we will not be quiet, and it's time he got the troops back. It's not just one mother saying that, it's mothers around the world."

Gulf News

Editorial, United Arab Emirates, March 20

"From the perspective of Mr Bush, the 'mission' has been, and still is, a success. But is it? ... Since [9/11], a loose coalition of interested nations has assisted in the fight to make the world a safer place. But many people in Afghanistan and Iraq still live in fear; killings still take place by unknown insurgents, and the move towards democracy has not held sway with a significant majority in both countries.

"In Iraq, two years on, still the basic utilities in many areas are not working, still people are suffering. To them, democracy is meaningless. It cannot be said the world is any safer, for in some countries people go in fear. While in the west, those very freedoms being fought for are being curtailed in the interests of national security."

We all know who has kept anti-war and anti-tyranny groups like Amnesty for all these years.

"The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side. He has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them."

For those of you who care, for those of you who can cut threw the corp media, for those who still think they have power . Call to action.
All this happened under the radar, no reporting and no mention in any news outlet, Not CKNW , NOT CBC etc.
Its simple , put down your views and point out the rallies both local and world wide that were not reported and send a email to

Nicole Lafrance
she is with Canadian Broadcast Standards council,
She can force the stations to respond to you.
1) Bite back at the corp media, this action has a cost to them.
2) Support independent media , boycott business that supports this illegal war.

Just my 2 cents, do something or go to back to your mediocrity. you know go back and act like Norm S.

Thanks for the contact information, Stuart. I will use it!

I went to the presentation by Dahr Jamail on Friday, it was the first images
I have seen of places like Fallujah. The city looks like those after the Nazi invasions,
Not a single building standing. The mass collective punishment has been almost invisible in the mainstream media, it does not look like this good vs. evil Hollywood scene when you see
Kids and women scouring the rubble for loved ones and the only source of water being
Filthy ditches etc. The massacre was so large , they converted the soccer field into a cemetery. We must take on the mainstream media, we must support and create a vibrant
Independent media. We must list and boycott corporations supporting the war, we must lobby gov to do the right thing ( Canada pulling troops out of Haiti and Afghanistan) Canada is supporting the US by helping out in these places. The US has already 6000 deserters in the military and its having trouble recruiting , . We must help out like we did in Vietnam.

One last thing, we must continue to be visible, our protest march Sat turned out a army of Police, why is that. They know when folks see the truth for the first time things can get
Happen quickly. Be the change you want to see.

Peace protests haven't highlighted Syria's "occupation" of Lebanon because quite frankly, most people probably thought, like I did, that Syria was keeping the peace after their long & bloody civil war (I don't recall reports of Lebanese protests outside Syria's overseas embassies either). So I don't think this can be taken as an endorsement of Syria, which we all know has a nasty record on human/civil rights abuses (like most of its neighbours).

Maybe Syria's being there was simply the least unacceptable option at the time, and maybe times have changed and it's no longer appropriate; maybe Lebabon is set to be an inspiration to the rest of the Middle East, or maybe it's about to slip back into the hellhole of civil war. I certainly don't know and I doubt anyone else on this site does either.

I doubt that any of us here are evil fascists--perhaps naive and impetuous on occasion, or a little heated when our wisdom is challenged, as we all are. Bottom line is that being for/against the war in Iraq does not equate to an endorsement of fascism or a rejection of democracy. Underlying the back & forth above are fundamental, complex ethical dilemmas: when, if ever, is the use of force or pre-emptive force appropriate; do the ends ever justify bending rules, how to reconcile self-interest with the greater good; how can anyone measure the horrific potential costs of war against potential outcomes, when you can't possibly predict either in advance.

On that last point, I recently read a great quote from a Chinese leader whose name I forget. When asked his opinion of the French Revolution, he replied: "It's too soon to tell."

Norman, perhaps the insurgents in Iraq are fascists, I really don't know what their "philosophy", if any, might be. That they are probably motivated by some form of nationalism, that is to say resisting any foreign or foreign looking occupier, would seem to be obvious. That's why I believe it's critical to internationalize the effort there, something President Cheney and Vice President Bush are unwilling to do since it would compromise the security of Haliburton. BTW, Norman, have you heard that the contractors driving trucks over there for Haliburton are making several times the pay that the soldiers trying to protect them are making? I guess that's just one more extension of the universal conservative principle that public sector salaries shall not lead those of the private sector, no matter what!

Coming back to the BC NDP MPs for a minute, I think one should remember the old Brian Mulroney principle that "you dance with the one that brought you." BC NDP MPs are attending this rally no doubt because many of their riding association activists are involved in the StopWar.ca outfit, and because in Lotusland all parties are normally quite short of activists and cannot afford to offend any of them. Eastern NDP MPs may have more practical choices and an opportunity to be more choosy.

And in academia in BC I think there's probably a more open tradition of being very critical of American foreign policy crimes and misdeamanors and of not holding back on those critiques for fear of endangering a trade and investment relationship. I would suggest that tradition has a lot to do with ex-patriate Americans who came to our Universities during the Vietnam war, as did Svend Robinson's family. Not an excuse perhaps for being critical of Israel, but never being critical of Syria, but part of the overall chemistry that lies behind these events.

Excuse me but how is explaining every incident on the globe going to change the injustice that is going on now. This intellectual blabber usually ends up with inaction but makes some of you feel a little more important. Mutually exclusive things can happened at the same time in different places, in short we don't need to fragment the injustice in one place with the situation in another. The "lets figure out and talk about everything folks" before we act usually are just trying to fog the issue or justify their inaction.
Very simple , review the US and their record of overthrowing democratic governments and their
Record of supporting dictations like Saddam ( he was their wonder boy) and look at the reasons.
Usually the countries that have been overrun are either resource rich or are attempting to get out from under the global economical system which pushes class interest. Just check out he winning bidders in Iraq, ( Bechtel, Halliburton etc) If you still want to chat and be clever go ahead , if you want to make a difference that see my above posts.

Norman Give it up!

So you saying the NDP are supporting facists that kill people in Iraq? so you are Saying the NDP are on side with the USA? The USA are facist, The USA killed thousands of Iraqi people it is said that 20,000 deaths of unarmed civilians are dead since the Invation of Iraq. The washington post reported on October 29/2004 that 100,000 civilian deaths are possible.. here is a copy and paste from that aticle...............100,000 Civilian Deaths Estimated in Iraq

By Rob Stein
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, October 29, 2004; Page A16

One of the first attempts to independently estimate the loss of civilian life from the Iraqi war has concluded that at least 100,000 Iraqi civilians may have died because of the U.S. invasion.

The analysis, an extrapolation based on a relatively small number of documented deaths, indicated that many of the excess deaths have occurred due to aerial attacks by coalition forces, with women and children being frequent victims, wrote the international team of public health researchers making the calculations.

Pentagon officials say they do not keep tallies of civilian casualties, and a spokesman said yesterday there is no way to validate estimates by others. The spokesman said that the past 18 months of fighting in Iraq have been "prosecuted in the most precise fashion of any conflict in the history of modern warfare," and that "the loss of any innocent lives is a tragedy, something that Iraqi security forces and the multinational force painstakingly work to avoid...
let me repeat this a few times.....Pentagon officials say they do not keep tallies of civilian casualties.........Pentagon officials say they do not keep tallies of civilian casualties...........Pentagon officials say they do not keep tallies of civilian casualties....

The real numbers of civilian deaths will probaly be unknown for as long as we live. I think Norman is on side with facists that kill Iraqi people, well he is a conservative, smae guy that worked in Brain Mulroney's era the Guy who was caught with a big bag of cash during the the airbus scandal the same guy working for the CIA to sell Canada out for the advantage of the USA..I wouldn't doubt for one second if Mulroney was a CIA asset here is the washington post link...................http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A7967 -2004Oct28?language=printer.

Man you guys must have really cried when the Soviet Union collapsed and the US and it’s allies won the cold war.

I love how you guys call Saddam a puppet, Saddam worked hard to become the leader of Iraq and there are lots of bodies and blood to prove it. He was no ones puppet, except perhaps to his own ego.

As for the US having interests in Iraq, of course it does. The US like the majority of Industrial countries (including Canada) depend on a supply of oil and the US is trying to ensure that it has supplies to keep it going.

The US pulled it’s support of Iraq a long time ago and the two major suppliers of arms to the region were France and Russia, not to mention help from it’s middle east neighbours who supplied the funds to keep the Iran/Iraq war going. This is why Russia and France did not want Saddam overthrown as he owed them huge amounts of money, I think 80 billion to Russia alone. Why do you think all the Iraqi tanks are Russian and not American? If you want to compare the current events to the Iran/Iraq war. In one 3 day period over 9,000 Iranian/Iraqis died in one battle, with absolutely nothing achieved.

Please tell me what your plan would have been for Iraq? If the UN had successfully blocked the Coalition from invading, how long do think the US/Britain would have maintained the no fly zones for? 15-25years? I know people from Iraq and although the invasion and occupation is painful, they know that it was the only way to rid Iraq of the evil that was consuming it and it’s people.

If the sanctions were lifted (which was already happening), how long do you think it would take before Saddam started rebuilding his military and then what would you do you think he would do with it?

The real crime here was that the Allies should have finished off Saddam in 1991 and spared the Iraqis the suffering for the next 13 years. The US is imperfect, but I am damm glad that it is our neighbour rather than most of the nutbar dictatorships that abound in the world.

Isn’t it a good thing that the US doesn’t get involved in Dafur otherwise something bad might happen, unlike the wonderful job the UN is doing.

I also knew people in Iraq, Colin. Many of them, through no fault of their own, but in the process of the American invasion, are now dead. Of the people that remain, they now face famine and disease. Their jobs have been lost through the diktat of the American occupiers. They hated Saddam, but lived with him. Now they hate the west and fear the present Iraqi government. Whether or not they live with them depends on how desparate circumstances make them. So on and on it goes... To quote Patton, "(Americans) sure liberated the hell outta that place!"

I didn't cry when the sovet union collapsed.
But colin I think you watch CNN too much, a front for the CIA. But ya the situation is so much better in the former USSR with oranized crime running the country. tons of support went to the USSR from uncle sam during the cold war.
Coca-cola, pepsi Mcdonals all were in moscow long before the USSR fell. did you know that korea is still called a war zone?
how long has the US been on the 38th paralell? 50 some years now? The US will not invade North Koera because they will lose just like back in the 50s. hey I agree with your point of view on the UN, they repesent the same industrial billionairs all other political powers do but at the same time Weapons of mass destruction have yet to be found and their was enough high ranking officials said than NO weapons of mass destruction exsist in Iraq before the Invation.
The USA would invade Canada tomorrow if we said "no oil and gas for you". We have to question EVERYTHING that any coaliton does otherwise we will be lead to the slaughter house and no idea why. How many young people have to die so we can drive our SUV to the store?
The Americans are losing hundereds of young people average age 19 for Iraq and the Iraq people are losing thousands all for the sake of liberty. Well like I said before The war is about money and rich people are getting richer selling weapons to the USA military to secure oil fields.
The war is about liberation of cheap oil. Canada has enough oil to look after our selfs we import very little if any but if Canada didn't have enough oil you can bet we would be there too.

``People only see what they are prepared to see.''
-Ralph Waldo Emerson

---------------------------------------------------------- ``The best time to buy is when blood is running in the streets.''
-Baron Nathan Mayer de Rothschild

------------------------------------------------------- -----``The evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it.''
-John Hay, 1872

---------------------------------------------------------``Am erica is at that awkward stage; it's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards.''
-Claire Wolfe, 1995-Nov

You're just trying to be ignorant, Colin, hoping that people will just accept it. You know very well that the Baath Party came to power in Iraq in the early 1960s in a coup that was actively aided by the CIA. Saddam Hussein was not the leader at that time, but he was certainly one of their "mechanics", involved in assassinations.

I live nearby and went over to check out the so-called 'peace-march'. It was a lefty political rally and they talked more about gordon campbell than anything else. Pity that there were school kids there, no doubt told by their teachers that they were there to talk about peace. The teachers probably believed it themselves, considering most of them bark when their bctf master says speak.

Funny how the dissenters on this forum sound so much alike. Probably all the same person.

Dear Yaletown, I was at the march and your full of sh... , everything that happened at the march has been summarized by the stopwar.ca post above. Don't knock those who try and do something against great odds and no media support. And yes the NDP has been the most vocal against the war and should be proud of that. I know Gordon Campbell has allot of similar characteristics of George W and similar belief systems and economic policies but Gordo or the BC Libs was not mentioned once. Stop being so insecure and open your mind, or better yet go back to CanWest or CKNW were you fit in more, Colin will keep you company.

"Funny how the dissenters on this forum sound so much alike. Probably all the same person."

A drum roll and fanfare! Meet the right. Ideological soul mates of Norman, The Spectre, otherwise known as The Yankee Bootlick. Collectively, they are, ta da-a-a, the Brownshirts.

Have fun with them. They're just not too bright. :-D

"Funny how the dissenters on this forum sound so much alike. Probably all the same person."

A drum roll and fanfare! Meet the right: Ideological soul mates of Norman, The Spectre, otherwise known as The Yankee Bootlick. Collectively, they are, ta da-a-a, the Brownshirts.

Have fun with them. They're just not too bright, and given to intellectual and ideological drivel. :-D

"Funny how the dissenters on this forum sound so much alike. Probably all the same person."

A drum roll and fanfare! Meet the right: Ideological soul mates of Norman, The Spectre, otherwise known as The Yankee Bootlick. Collectively, they are, ta da-a-a, the Brownshirts. (Enter goosestepping and clicking their heels.) "Amerika Uber Alles!"

Have fun with them. They are the natural butt of jokes and ridicule. They're just not too bright, and given to intellectual and ideological drivel. :-D

"Funny how the dissenters on this forum sound so much alike. Probably all the same person."

A drum roll and fanfare! Meet the right: Ideological soul mates of Norman, The Spectre, otherwise known as The Yankee Bootlick. Collectively, they are, ta da-a-a, the Brownshirts. (Enter goosestepping and clicking their heels, robed in US Empire flags.) P> "Amerika Uber Alles!"

Have fun with them. They are the natural butt of jokes and ridicule. They're just not too bright, and given to intellectual and ideological drivel. :-D

Coyote- you've been cloned!!!

Stuart; Are you trying to tell me that the rally was not politically motivated? If you didn't hear gordo mentioned several times you were at a different rally than me.

Name, you may be right about the ignorance that prevailed in the past about Syria's occupation of Lebanon. But there's no excuse today for people who line up on the side of Syria and the fascists figting against democracy in Iraq. Even the French want Syria out of Lebanon, NATO and the UN are on the side of stabilizing the elected government of Iraq and only rabid ideologues are on the other side of this fight. They don't care about peace, they don't care about people, they don't care about occupations--all they care about is poking Uncle Sam in the eye.

How is Norman not Ideologicly driven? It sounds like you are repeating your self alot Norm, Its getting old you only come here to poke us in the eye because you assume that people who protest the war are only there to be anti-American.
Thats about the weakest defence of anyones point of view I have ever heard. in your world we should obey and not question. just remember one thing, The very govenment that you worked under in the past was as crooked as a dogs hinde leg and as far as i'm concerned so are you. ever think of the reasons why the PC government went down the crapper when your buddy Capt America Mulroney finally steped down and The PC party was almost the way of the Doe-Doe? it's because of people like you and Mulroney that don't give a rats ass about anything but money. I think you care less for the people in Iraq than 98% of the people here. tell us why do you have to be a snake? is it because you are bored? or is the Sun paying you to do this? I would think the latter.
You know by way of deception tho shalt make war.

"Coyote- you've been cloned!!!" notes Fi.

I blame Norman.:-)

And eh, fine lady! Good to know you are still around. Always a pleasure.

Enjoy your day. :-)