Nice work David. Are you going to post her response? Assuming there is one.

"the expenditure of more than $13.1 billion over a period of six months, or from April through September 2006"

Is that correct? Or should it be "April through September 2005?"

Thank you David for showing us what a good editor can do when looking abuse of power and neglect in the eye.

Thank you David for showing us what a sloppy editor can do with an incorrect interpretation of Constitutional Law.

23 (1) The Lieutenant Governor may, by proclamation in Her Majesty's name, prorogue or dissolve the Legislative Assembly when the Lieutenant Governor sees fit.

(2) Subject to subsection (1), a general voting day must occur on May 17, 2005 and thereafter on the second Tuesday in May in the fourth calendar year following the general voting day for the most recently held general election.

Thank you, David Beers, for speaking truth to power. Thank you for preparing the solid grounding for this forthright defense of the public interest.

I can't help smiling, as I imagine the scene where B.C.'s Lieutenant Governor must confer with Premier Campbell ... and a big balloon rides over Government House saying 'GOTCHA!"

The cynical abuses to the democratic process by the provincial liberals must be stopped.
Our province is not a banana republic and gordon campbell, inspite of his delusions of grandeur, is not a dictator.
If real and meaningful steps are not taken to address the liberals flagrant and contemptuous abuse of power the very rule of law in this province will be threatened.

Coming from a 3rd world country, I thought I'd seen the end of this kind of skulduggery from our elected politicans. Run Gordon. Run Liberals. Hide and spend our money in your constituencies in your campaign of damage control.

Fooled once, will not be fooled again.

To add insult to injury, the taxpayer is paying these schmucks to be in parliament while they are not there. Why don't we just all give everything we have to the Liberals to do what they wish.

I sure hope this goes somewhere.

zen: Thanks for catching the typo. Fixed now.

Running entirely in parallel with the NPD mentality, De beers completely ignores his gaffe -(2) "Subject to subsection (1), a general voting day must occur on May 17, 2005".

(besides even if it could be done, Ionna might respond "well how else could you shut the redhead up")

I am hoping that the Gov General does HER job,exactly what the letter tells her to do!
Right on!

The Jean Binette panick factor is glowing Fiberal red.

Good letter, David. These ARE extraordinary times indeed. And we need to ready ourselves for them, in extraordinary ways.

Jean Binnette; Surely you can't be taking that provision seriously. This law is akin to the 19th century attempts to legislate the value of pi as 3.

What if the day before sees a disaster, I hear Mt St. Helens is smoking again, which way is the wind blowing? What if Liberal involvement with drugs, conspiracy and money laundering is exposed later this week, and the government falls due to several key ministers being arrested? what if, what if, what if somebody decides to use parliamentary provisions as they were made to be used, the Governor General or whoever? To function properly, Parliament demands that Governments must fall if certain things happen, and an election must be called then, not at some arbitrary date set by a fool who thinks he's an American.

With a fixed date AND a strong majority we are not a parliamentary democracy. We are a term dictatorship. Just like the one the Americans are building.

Regarding the "gaffe" alleged by Jean Binette: If the fixed election date of May 17 is subject to subsection one -- that is, if it is subject to the dissolution of the legislature by the LG -- then I'm not sure I see where Mr. Beers has erred. While the "subject to" provision is likely included to deal with a situation in which a minority government is defeated, since it would be absurd to wait until the next scheduled election before going to the people, there's no reason to believe that it wouldn't also apply to a situation where the LG dissolved Parliament for another reason. The likelihood of that happening, of course, is another question.

Too bad Bailey, it "says what it says". What if the sky falls next week? What's important here is the immeasurable ignorance of Tyee "editors" - Go to the front of the line with Spud.

I agree with 'cd'.If Campbell asks for a dissolution before April 19th, the fixed election date law accommodates an election before May 17th. David Beers is exactly right to raise hell about the Liberals' actions relating to the budget but we'll have to wait and see if Campbell actually asks the LT to dissolve the House on Thursday. He might just end the session rather than dissolve the House and then dissolve the House later (sticking to the April 19th schedule). Anyway you slice it the Liberals are treating the parliamentary process like a toy to play with when they feel like. Makes me sick.

complete garbage david. very cheap. but, hey, it worked. your fans are enthralled.

This letter is rather laughable. When did you guys start caring about the taxpayers dollar? I guess you have concern for taxpayers money when political points are up for grabs. Just another NDP grandstanding move that really accomplishes nothing.

The legislation provides for a general election "no later than" 17 May.

There appears to be a growing comfort amongst the right in BC, indeed in North America, with autocratic rule and government by fiat.

Perhaps democracy really was just a moment.

"Libertarian" Jim and no accountabilty whatsoever "the Jean Binette" barometers glow one and the same, if 'brighter', to all their extra low wattage. "Jean" wants to defile the pratice of law and tries out petty-fogging about "sections and sub-sections".

The point of the open letter - the unaccountable sham in Victoria, is beyond their navels and thus any credible personal reflection.

This is not about any particular party (wish all you might, you two), but about elementary democratic process and credibility. And in this administration's - its blatant lack.

Yea! "brother Kit", So educated you are ...

Excellent letter David. A few cocker spaniels will make little noises of distraction, hoping this will go away.

Jean Binette. You made me study the act for an hour. Mr. Beers is absolutely correct. Subsection (2) is SUBJECT TO Subjection (1). In law this meants that subsection (2) does not come into effect unless the exigencies of subsection (1) are met. Perhaps you might wish to have another look at the meaning of the words, "subject to." I applaud Mr. Beers for reminding us that the Lieutenant General has a role besides doling out metals and welcoming dignitaries.

hope all you want kit, but we're not going away. in fact, the libs are in for at least 8 more years. lots more time for you lefties to whine away to your bleeding hearts content.

Seems the editor tapped into something powerful enough to overturn a couple of stones.

Look at the critters that have slithered out all confused, puffed up and hissing at the daylight.

I am very curious, griper, about your values and what kind of society you hope will emerge from 8 more years of neo-con/corporate rule in B.C.
If you truly believe in this vision I CHALLENGE you to share it with us, in detail.

Oh how our memory fails us. Remember in 1996 when NDP leader Glen Clarke released the fudgit budget in the morning and then proceeded to motor over the the L.G. that very afternoon to call an election. There was zero debate of thar budget. Give me a break.

Griper, Jim and Jean:
I can appreciate your political stripes but to suggest that this is "ok" is outrageous. Gordon and Co. are using the legislature as petty theatre and it is very much comparable to a banana republic.

Griper: 8 more years? Perhaps if they got rid of their criminally convicted Premier they might have a chance. I think that if the Liberals continue to insult the public as they have been lately, they wont have 8 more months.

ron; as you can see from kit's 'cocker spaniel' comment, the lefties don't like debate much. it's too hard to make any sense of their antiquated, for lack of a better word, ideas.
they prefer to blame everything on corporate boogeymen and neo-con cyclops. unfortunately for the more pragmatic and realistic members of society, they don't really understand what these things are, but they do come in very handy when you find yourself not able to make any clear and logical arguments. lucky for them they have public sector unions where they can surround themselves with like-minded zealots.

Jean and Griper. Your response exposeses you for the blind morally corrupt puppets you really are. No matter what disgusting things your party does, you support them to the bitter end. I can just imagine your response if the NDP were to pull a move like this, you'd be frothing at the mouth. As much as I dispise the Liberals, even they must be embarassed to have you as members.

sorry chuck, i'm not a member. in fact i voted for the ndp in 1991. biggest mistake i ever made. sorry i don't fit your convenient right-winger mould.

Hi,Ron Erwin. Didn't your mom ever tell that two wrongs don't make a right?

Chuck, I can't think of anything more disgusting than throwing your support behind Hairy Lali.

Truman:
That's the funny thing about the BC Liars. They claimed that they would "bring accountability and integrity back to the legislature" back in 2001. Now, screw up after screw up, all they can say is "Well the NDP did it too". Their credibility - or lack thereof - would have been seen in a much better light if they just once accepted responsibility for their ideological blunders. They act like a bunch of petulant children who either blame the previous government or hide in their holes when held to account.

A classic example is the Health Minister of the day, Ms. Bond, when she went on to blame the NDP when they neglected to create the additional 5000 beds they promised. Not their fault, no way.

Griper: similar to your story, I voted Liberal in 2001 .... biggest mistake I ever made.

Not being a Canadian by birth I was never able to understand either parliamentary democracy or the hockey penalty system. “Naughty boy for hitting that man with your stick. You will now sit down and not play for five minutes.” I cannot imagine that working in soccer. Tried as I tried to understand Mr. Beers’s letter I cannot comprehend the legality of it all. Is it legal what the Liberals are trying to do? What Glen Clark did as posted Ron Irwin, is that true? Was it legal? Or are we looking at legality in good faith (bona fide). What a government can do and should do must obviously not coincide. And if you are the government in power you then do what you want to do.

For me it is far easier to understand the Mexican system. Government officials from the president down are in power for exactly 6 years and they (the president) cannot be re-elected. The task, then, is to steal as much as you can while in office. That I understand.

The BC "Liberals" seem to have modified the Mexican idea to "sell as much as you can while in office" and "cloud everything in secrecy".

Can someone tell me what extending the legislature will REALLY do besides giving Joy McPhail another couple weeks to hear herself talk. Will the Liberals dramatically alter their budget because Joy is squealing? I doubt it.

griper, you are exactly right. I actually like it when they call me names, that way it confirms my belief that they have nothing intelligent to say.

Sam, you said that the Liberals are using the legislature as petty theater. Don’t you think moves like this are “petty theater” and grandstanding? I would have to say that the legislature has become Joy McPhails own personal petty theater.

And yes Glen Clark tabled a budget then called an election later that day, with absolutely ZERO debate on the budget.

By the way Liberals did try to move the election date into the fall so the budget could be passed and the Auditor Generals report could be in, but the NDP jumped down their throat. I guess the NDP doesn’t really want the books to be exposed because then everyone will know that the Liberals are prudent fiscal managers and the NDP won’t be able to grandstand like they are now.

While we're all confessing: I voted for the "Liberals" in 2001. Biggest mistake I ever made. Try to imagine, I thought they were moderate. Not the heartless lying thieving anti-democratic corporate-puppet tyrants they've sinced proved themselves to be.

But aren't things great now that we've got a billion (maybe) in dirty CN money and another billion and change in equalization payments? Wonder what we're going to have to sell off in the next four years to balance the budget one time? ICBC would be my guess.

stretch; you've chosen a perfect nom de plume.

I suggest we start a populist movement to drop the word "British" from the province's name. Let's be who we really are.

It was wrong when Glen Clark did it. It is also wrong when Gordon Campbell does it. This should not mean that now every future Premier of B.C. is allowed to table budgets without debate.

Neo-Columbia.

Re Ranbir. I want to know by wrong do you mean illegal? What Glen Clark did and Gordon Campbell is about to do is it against the law?

griper, you're probably thinking that I'm exaggerating the equalization payments. Ho w's this? 195 million in 01-02, 332 million in 03-04, and 824 million in 04-05.

Great to be a have-not province, eh?

Griper, you never answered my CHALLENGE. Please grace us with your enlightened vision for our collective future in B.C. (Maybe it will be millionaires and wal-mart workers only in the golden new era. Giant mining pits under massive clear-cuts populated by the ghosts of extinct plants and animals. Free labor in the golden new decade era will be provided by privatized "pattison-for-profit" prisons (P4's) poulated with left-wing dissidents, the unconnected, raging grannies, young children, minorities, elderly people, sick people and last but most certainly least, poor people.)
-fade out with Louis Armstrong's Wonderful World-

May I suggest timidly, wary of incurring too much incoming venom, that perhaps our comments should be accompanied by our names. I did pretty good in school, eh, but I just can't understand why anyone would ever post a comment under a nom de plume. Ideas are us, eh.

Picture Argentina losing against Uruguay at a World cup by one nil. There are 10 minutes left in the game and the Uruguayans are playing safe and passing the ball backwards and sideways forcing the Argentines to dance the tango and foul. The Argentine crowd will scream that the Uruguayans are not playing like men. The will say that they are not allowing the Argentines to play their wonderful game. In years past I watched Oscar Robertson dribble the ball to use up the last minutes of a basketbal game away. Are we, in the Tyee, asking them (the Liberals) to allow us to play our game?

Sure. Like your name is Truman. And like it matters anyway.

I don't think it does.

I don't like the idea of going to the queen's representative in B.C., the Lieutenant Governor, for help now that one of our elected-representatives did something we are not happy about. Although it may be written-law, human written-laws are changed and modified by elected-representatives all the time, it is not like the laws of physics. I don't like the idea that the queen's "unelected-representative" has any power what so ever. The position of Lieutenant Governor should be eliminated completely, or atleast reduced to that of completely ceremonial with either no official residence or maybe a subsidized apartment and either no pay or maybe a dollar/year.

ws, i had intended to do so later, but i like yours better.

Mr. Truman Greene has a point to make and I respect his point. I also believe his name is Truman Green. He and his name both matter as every human being has an inherent respect due for just being human. I may not like Gordon Campbell by I respect him for the person he is. To say that someone's name does not matter if anything probably shows a person's lack of respect for his own self. This Tyee should be used for the discourse of ideas (be they political or whatever) but is should not be used to insult.

I apologize. I believe him too.

"wrong", may involve breaking a written-law, or it may involve an action which is against the best interest of human/planetary society.
ie:destroying eco-systems, selling toxins (cigarettes, certain pharmaceutical drugs etc.) is wrong, but not illegal in B.C.

Well as has been siad before by Gordo It is all the NDP s fault for asking questions.After all in BC we have our own weapons of massdestruction the BC not DEMOCRATIC but Autocratic LIBERALS (Not).

Mr. Beers is to be applauded, for it is rare these days for any editor to pay attention to our legislature in any way, let alone defend the rights of the people of this province entrenched there. Our legislature has become a total farce, for quite some time now, with the premier refusing to answer questions directed at him and refusing to acknowledge the opposition or it's questions in any way. Question period has been tampered with, debate has been replaced by endless partisan grandstanding, and now we have no debate at all.

The question remains whether Ms. Campagnolo will have the courage to address the injustice. I hope so. It could be an extraordinary and historic moment, both for her and this province.

The lovely and talented Iona, whose future as a remittance woman was determined by the grace of having served a single term in the House of Commons as a (gasp!) Liberal 30-odd years ago, will of course find the Beers letter amusing. Beers might also have noted that the lovely and talented Iona has the authority under S.48 of the Constitution Act to return the supply bill to the House with suggested amendments prior to assent. So what will she do? Probably her hair.

Hey griper, why don't we meet in person and discuss our differences?
Dont pull a bush n' cheney on me man.

Yawns to Sister Lynn

"but I just can't understand why anyone would ever post a comment under a nom de plume."

Because some of us have ideas that scare people. Scared people do dumb, dangerous things.

Surely introducing a budget and then dissolving the House is not an original idea of Mr Clarke's. Perhaps distasteful, particularly as these documents are typically the opening move of the campaign and at least to some extent created by government employees, this is (I assume) seen as more credible than releasing a raft of disconnected proposals. Fine. But is that really what the current case is, Mr Erwin? Here the proposal seems to be to get a temporary spending permit to implement the budget that is written but not debated and passed, and not for the month of the campaign but for nearly half the fiscal year. I guess this seems a valid distinction on the surface, and not one that augurs well for the goal of more accountability in government. Perhaps, one of those who see no difference can help me understand.

Stretch, the article that you linked to states, “The way equalization works is that the amount due for any fiscal year is not finalized until 30 months after the end of the fiscal year.” Doesn’t that mean that although we started receiving equalization payments under the Liberals the NDP were the ones who put us into the have not category? The Liberals figured since we were in this mess we might as well make the best of it. There is also a strong possibility that the unprecedented growth in equalization payments to BC is the result of effective lobbying. They have managed to get the Federal government to return our money to us. What’s the problem with that? I view that as a benefit.

Francis using Columbia is interesting since they have militant Marxist socialists who hold their country hostage. We can call the NDP FARC lite.

JIm, you have raised that canard about your party being blocked from having a fall election date by the big bad NDP before and you have been asked, but have yet to come up with any details regarding it.

Until you do, I will treat it as the lie I suspect it is.

You are a classic example of the BS this pack of liars will spew to avoid telling the truth.

You and Ron Erwin can trumpet all the BS you wish about the so-called fudgit budget of '96 and Clark's refusal to debate it.

Two points on that. Ron the Supreme Court threw out any suggestion the '96 budget was cooked.

Perhaps you have a bit of selective memory that keeps flashing back to the joint RCMP-BCTV bust of the premier at his private residence a couple of years later.

That embarrassing issue, brought on incidentally by complaints by one Gordon Campbell, was also tossed in the trash when it finally got to court.

As for Clark introducing a budget and then dropping the writ without debate, Clark was seeking a first term election as premier.
If I remember right the Liberals barely raised an eyebrow over Clark's election call without budget debate, presumably on the assumption that Gordon Campbell would walk away with the '96 election, which he lost bigtime.

That loss by your hero, is in fact the real cause of so much angst and bitterness among you neo-cons.

Campbell had that election in the bag and then lost it all himself.

Your buddy Campbell has now had four years in office during which he promised this province would succeed, nothing would be privatized, contracts would be honoured and, well the promises just went on and on.

He broke virtually every promise he made other than to give his wealthy friends generous tax breaks and we ended up as a have-not-province thanks to his bizarre actions.

To top that off Campbell and crew, without a hint of embarrassment, then took billions in federal transfer payments and are now trying to tell us the money was the result of prudent fiscal management.

That's like saying a six-year-old is a wonderful truck driver because he hasn't yet run anyone over. The brakes are burned out, the windows are cracked, there hasn't been an oil change in eons, but the kid hasn't killed anyone yet. Wow.

I think there is an onus on Campbell in his effort for a second term to tell the truth for once and show us the real financial picture.

I'm still extremely curious why the last Finance Minister exited in such a hurry before this budget. Especially since his last three budgets were all losers and here was his chance to shine.

Just what did he know that we don't yet know about?

Ah, Jean, it sounds like this is all so beneath you. Must be nice to be so sure of oneself...

I think the letter is an interesting tack to take on this. At least when Glen Clark did it, he called an election right away. With the way that Campbell has done it, we have no debate AND no election.

With respect to the musings of the Liberals about changing the fixed election date, the spin they gave was that it would give time for the books to be finalized before going to the people for a vote. A cynic might say it would be so they could fix things before calling an election...kinda like it worked before we had the fixed election date....

Obviously that he was a loser, allan.

Ah, Lori-Lynn. YAWN

Allan, that is a classic response, you’re ignorant to the facts so you call them lies. I guess if you’ve never heard this before it defiantly didn’t happen. Last time I brought this up there were other posters who confirmed the story. I'm sorry I do not keep years worth of papers to prove Allan wrong. I burn them to do as much damage to the environment as any good neo con would. (Joke).

Jim I would only correct and say that it is British Columbia and the Marxist country you mention is Colombia. In Spanish the extra o makes a big difference.

I'm all for real names. In point of I think there should be a registration and verification requirement. Bite me.

Sometimes gestures are all that are available to those in disagreement with policies of government. Will Iona use any of her archaic powers? No chance in hell. Would any provincial government in Canada pay attention if a LtGov did so choose? Not likely. Would that government be forced to by the feds or the courts? Again, no chance in hell. The feds wouldn't care for the notion that one day a GG could usurp their right to govern as they see fit and would immediately engage in a round of constitutional foofaraw aimed at delimiting the offices of LtGov and GG all the way back to ribbon cutter.

I repeat, sometimes gestures are all one reasonably has.

But...it is equally true that gestures, and the impulses motivating them, repeatedly scorned and ignored can build compelling popular potency.

Campbell's crew is probably headed for a second term. And even I, who is prepared to vote for a comatose NDP member before a live Liberal, am willing to admit that they have not screwed absolutely everything up. Most of the things that matter, they have not done a very good job of. It seems almost as though they spent so much time figuring out how to become the government that they didn't put in much timesorting out what governing was going to require of them, how it might stretch them. Governing a real world place is significantly different from governing a paper pile of statistical data. Real world dilemmas and paradoxes don't succumb to theoretical constructs with anything resembling ease. And their first term has been marked more by application of ideology and econo-political theory than by much resembling actual governance.

Allan: Well said. With any luck, Campbell's failure to win a "sure thing" in 1996 will happen again. That picture of him sulking in Victory square (oh the irony) after his failed campaign of '96 was beautiful. "What happened" written all over his puffy drunk face.

All rhetoric aside, as a law abiding and tax paying citizen, how can you elect someone who was sent to jail for committing a crime during his term in office? Is it just me or does that cement the whole "banana republic" image?

Hope some of you are watching the legislative channel...you will hear the utter malarkey the government is spewing in order to avoid telling the public how and where it will be spending billions of taxpayers' money in the months to come, without debate or scrutiny. Or are they simply election promises that will never materialize, so that the fact that they have not been passed makes it all the easier for the present government to break their promises once again. Kwan and MacPhail in fine form as usual.

Allan here you go - http://www.thenownewspaper.com/issues04/072204/news/072204nn5.html - I apologize I don’t know how to hyperlink.

Sad day for democracy, as for the two twin JJs, all I can say you must both work (or is it one person?) for the premier's public affairs bureau you both seem to post M-F and spend most of your day defending this government on this website. Glad to see my tax dollars are going to whatever dirty tricks this government can think of to get elected.

Ah, crap. Who pays for this money-losing venture??

Just like other dubious online business concepts, this one will sink when the investors fail to see a return. In the case of The Tyee, it will eventually fold up when its labour backers pull the plug.

David, as an American are you really as incensed by the abbreviated budget debate in the BC leg, or are you merely mouthing NDP talking points? In your effort to be contrary to the CanWest newspapers, you've merely become a shill of another sort.

Shame.

What the BC Fiberals are doing is disgraceful, but then, there is the precedent of the NDP under G. Clark doing a similar thing.

As for David's letter - it is a great publicity ploy David, but it has not a hope in hell of motivating dear Iona to intervene - as someone said in the thread - about all she'll be doing is her hair!

What a low level democracy we live in. That 13.1 billion of taxpayers money can be spent via this Supply Bill- with barely a whisper of a debate is to my mind outrageous- whether perpetrated by a Fiberal, NDP or any government.

What is also unbelieveable - is to witness the tepid reaction of the people of BC, of organized labor, barely a 'yawn' , barely a 'blip' . If this were to occur in Italy - there would be hundreds of thousands of people in the streets - organized by an effective opposition - hell, even the Ukraine beats our response all to hell.

Despite these comments, the situation illustrates the utter dysfunctionality of our low level democracy in BC.

We cannot possibly have a higher-level democracy without modernizing our institutions of governance - and the STV is not the 'silver bullet' .

As I have said before, we the people of BC are the ones with the sovereign authority to decide the rules by which we wish to govern ourselves - we need to discover within ourselves the 'vigor', the creativity, the 'courage' - to formulate a 'constitutional constituent assembly' to discuss and decide an internal constitution for this province - not this 'cap in hand' please help us poor electorate bullshit letter to the Crown's representative.

Once we, the people, reformulate those 'rules' ...then no party and no premier can again run roughshod over citizen's democratic rights. But --don't look to the NDP or the Fiberals to do that - because each of those parties understand -that whoever occupies the Premier's chair --calls the shots and that is just "fine" by both those parties. ...and thus we have perpetuated 'low -level' democracy ..ala "Columbia" as someone suggested.

JIm, you've been asked a direct question. I know you have a thing about answering questions. You really never do it. In spite of the fact that good evidence has been placed before you on several topics here, you never deal with the issue, you never answer the question. If you had actual convincing reasons to believe the things you say you probably would, if you were sincere.

It occurs to me that it might be because you have some scruples about what you're saying here, which can at best only be called mean spirited, even for an accountant. So, answer Stan's question please.

Are you paid to post here? Assigned to read this site by anybody?

peter; you've inadvertently come up with a fabulous idea. why don't all of you short-sighted lefties move to italy?
as for diog and stan's suspicions of paid posters here; do you really think the gov't cares one bit about what is said on the tyee? no offense intended, i like this site, (beers stunts notwithstanding) but come on guys, give me a break. are you really that desperate?

David, A (refresher) course in the constitutional powers of the Lieutenant-Governor, particularly the "reserve" powers, is in order.

JIm, I couldn't track down anything I thought relative with those digits, so perhaps you can tell me what I'm to look for.

Thank you Norman.

Griper, paying web trolls happens every day in the good old USA. A non-stop highly-paid campaign of right-wing proganda in the name of "balance" rather than objectivity. The BC Liberals as right wingers are not capable of seeing objective truth, so they have to rely on clowns like you, griper, and JIm to write all forms of denials and lies to distort the truth.

Now gripers doing it. A non denial denial. Answers a question with another question. A rhetorical one at that.

The answer to your question is yes. I do think the government went to extraordinary lengths to stifle all dissent and opposition. Paying people with tax money to distract and deceive taxpayers seems right in character. You've done exactly that since you began the last election campaign. Let's test my theory again, just on the chance that somebody might feel there's a difference between making an employer's case for money and denying themselves with their own mouths.

Has anybody assigned you to read and post here griper? It would be a yes or no type of answer.

Mr. Norman Spector is the one who appears to need a "Democracy 101" refresher, on open budget debate in the legislature, and appears farless interested in the point of democracy, and abscence of debate within the house. A post and attempted side swipe at the Tyee the editor instead, about sub-minutia. We've seen that here already Norman (and laughably attempted). De rigeur avoidance tactics.

How do you feel about the absence of any debate on the budget Norman? The early rising of the legislature? Try not to change the subject, if you can.

Sue Clark is really afraid of conservative ideas taking hold in Canada. This isn't something to fear. It should be embraced as a way of lifting ourselves from the grey soup we are now boiling in. Long live people who beleive in individual freedoms far removed from her "Nanny State" objectives. Are you wearing your bicycle helmut today ?

To anybody who has ever dealt with an alcoholic, trying to make a political columnist to answer a direct question is as difficult as trying to make the alcoholic admit that he or she hid this bottle or that in some drawer. Getting the person to admit to such a thing is an empty victory. It is curious that with all that cross border copying we have never adopted one of the most practical of American political customs. When Clark fell we should have drafted Mike Harcourt. He would have won and now we would be imposing on the Liberals a budget without any further discussion.

Alex Waterhouse; Would you mind re-entering your comments so we understand what the hell you are talking about.

What really gripes me about this is that my tax dollars are going to the Liberals campaigning. I really resent this. If the budget isn't going to be scrutinized by the opposition I wish they would just drop the writ now and stop playing games.

Ron:

I'll bet Susan Clark doesn't need you to interpret for you. If you don't have an opinion to share, that's fine, but please don't post just to tell us what someone else is thinking.

Chances are you're wrong unless you're a psychic. And if you are (a psychic) go pick some lottery numbers and report back to us.

Good for you for standing up for "individual freedoms" Ron Erwin.

Please do ride your bike as much as you can without a helmet.

In fact, get out there on the freeway or find long curving hills to race down in wet weather.

No, you don't need a bike helmet, you need some of the stuff helmets are made to encompass and protect.

I'm curious, do you drive vehicles without buckling your seatbelt in your never ending campaign to stifle those government regulation as well?

"What a low level democracy we live in. That 13.1 billion of taxpayers money can be spent via this Supply Bill- with barely a whisper of a debate is to my mind outrageous- whether perpetrated by a Fiberal, NDP or any government." says Peter Dimitrov, who actually gets it in the fullest possible way I think. (I think David's letter is a good one, but let's face it, as a response likely to produce a desired effect, it's pretty low level stuff. It's greatest benefit has been to flush out the right wing nut jobs lurking here on the edges of Tyee.)

Even though, at this point, it is most likely I will feel compelled to vote NDP next election, though far, far from certain, what Peter gets especially right that we all have to come to fully appreciate is, that we really do live in a low level, minimalist democracy capitalism. And until the great collective "we" get it, and we get off our collective asses and vigourously mobilize to expand our collective influence within, first and foremost, the economy, that which underpins all material and social life, creating a real democratic system of management and direction there, current capitalism, whether under an outright dominant Neocon influence or a "Please, let me play with you NDP!", is on the downhill skids. (From which two world wars only previously saved it, in just the nick of time.)

With our place in control of the economy more firmly secured, just like the capitalist class itself understands secures its dominant position in the current socio-political arrangement, indeed, even in the course of "popular power" wresting that position within the economy, we begin to create an entirely "new" political dynamic and power as well. (Which is likely to even test the relevance of all political parties per se even-, with new forms of exercising "democratic" political power evolving from that base of "democratic" control of the economy.)

All of which may seem pretty remote from here, but only because of the abyssmal condition of first, the labour movement, and secondly the other movements of the poor, and people generally. Which is the first task that needs to be achieved, of course; a great awakening, and the creation of a movement or movements of the the people that can really shake the streets when they walk about, and strike fear into the heart of either the Liberals or the NDP, and even the ruling class itself. This latter who really controls both of them now, in any case, in many subtle and not so subtle ways-, directly with their cash and their own class control of the economy.

Until this latter element is secured, and in place however, a great popular movement of the people, there's no hope of any greater level of democracy than current minimalist democracy capitalism, and writing letters of protest that, while they may read well, are really about as effective as making armpit farts.

(Aye, the ruling class WILL commence to whine and threaten, "We will take our money and toys to other parts of the world."

Which is where that little matter of cojones and marracas comes in. :-) Take 'em up on it. Let 'em go. Only you leave "our" economic plant and equipment here, and a chunk of "tax cash" for our inconvenience, and to cover "environmental issues", and we, workers with the help of unions that know a thing or two about how economies work, with the help of academic economic expertise, just like the capitalists themselves, even hiring management expertise if we need, again like the capitalists themselves, will work out the hows and wherefores to keep things humming along. It's not a black magic art or heavenly mystery beyond our ken, but an element of social life eminently understandable to most of us-, especially once nothing is deliberately hidden from us and we come to understand it, and work through the problems-, again, just like "they" do, only in secret, to create your dependancy on them.

But first we, radicals and progressives, need a more all encompassing view of future politics and ideology, that has more realism, depth, imagination and daring than what we have tended over the last few decades, and look beyond and outside the narrow box of current "electoral" politics alone, and the gamesmanship of current "minimalist democracy" capitalism, reflected here by these raving right wing nut jobs, such as Jean Spinette, the self-adoring Spectre, Jungle Jim and The Groper.

A very articulate post Brother Kit, but who cares? Do you seriously believe that debating a budget with the redhead (who wrote the cheques in the 90's) would be of any benefit whatsoever?

Besides, everybody knows where the money is going, just tune in to the nightly news.

Mr Erwin, Sir, The subtlety of the English language could be lost to anyone used to a Canwest media diet.

"to hell with them all", cry's the wiley coyote, as he deposits yet another fresh steamy pile in his own backyard.

There's nothing quite like the Ron Erwins of the world preaching about the great "individual freedoms" that can only be delivered by neocon governments such as the one we are presently suffering with. What would you rather have Ron, the freedom to not wear a bike helmet, or the freedom of an accountable government. Let's see, the liberals refuse to debate; they've essentially shut the doors making them (in my opinion) the least accountable government in my lifetime; they rip up contracts / privatize / increase tuition / etc. making in virtually impossible for people to actually get ahead. But in their philosophical world, the very few people that they've helped get richer serve as a model for the rest of us. They fooled you Ron into believing that their great economic system (and I've argue before that it is not capitalism) provides you with the means necessary to get rich beyond your wildest dreams. Individual freedoms! What exactly does that mean to you Ron? Wearing a bike helmet? Boo-freaking-hoo.

"A very articulate post Brother Kit, but who cares?"

Obviously you do Jean, otherwise you wouldn't take the time to read and respond.

Atempting to respond to the rightist ideologues is like trying to pick up water with your fingertips, kids. There is no dialogue with them. It's the primary reason I don't show up here much anymore.

The Tyee will conntinue to be an eminently readable alternative but these pseudonymous cowards have quite intentionally dealt this attempt at participatory journalism a blow from which it likely will not be able to recover. Trash the discourse enough and those wishing to engage go elsewhere. The righties have learned this lesson well from all kinds of US examples. It's what's going on here.

It was a good try David but until everyone is required to register and post under real and verifiable identities, it's a wash. See you around.

Thanks for setting me straight N, (Kit's my Hero)

Has anyone seen the Hombre'

So what was your last name Dana?

I know Dean, but posters like Jean drive me nuts (all part of their plan I'm sure). Jean is the worst kind of poster. He/she make claims about Beers article, calling him a sloppy editor and when Truman Green calls her/him on it there's no response, instead Jean hurls invective at other posters, hoping his/her "yawns", "steaming piles of dog crap" and "who cares" will pass itself off as debate.

Then there's Mr Spector who also adds nothing to the debate. He criticizes Beers letter, but won't post why he such a problem with it, except to vaguely point us in the direction of "reserve powers". I'm sure in a weeks time we can look forward to a rebuttal on his own blog (that will likely have little to do with the topic at hand re: see his recent post about weblogs)

And yes, I've contributed nothing to this thread because I know little on the topic and have nothing to add. Instead of posting like I know something about it, I'll read and hopefully inform myself on it.

And that's really my point, some of us are here to inform ourselves about the issues. Sometimes are minds are not made up. Maybe a sound reasonable argument could sway us one way or the other. If you can't represent your point of view here in a convincing, or gasp, even civil fashion, you're just adding to the noise.

No one's trashed the site, Dana. I'm sure there are others here who cannot afford the luxury of unlisted phone numbers or addresses to prevent insane stalkers.

It's the "ideas", or what passes for same, that are important Dana, not the monikers or even the number of them that people choose or use, especially the rightist nutters. And it's those ideas that have to be engaged and explained, or countered as necessary. (And most of the Rightist Nutters don't even need to be engaged at all, like Spinette, simply spinning his wheels. They are obvious enough, again, in most cases, and a simple waste of time. Feed the Brownshirts and the little buggers simply breed more. :-)

On this "names" issue, I think you are missing the forest for the trees, however well intended. And actually, the stats, according to David, indicate that Tyee is growing and evolving, not falling by the wayside-, sensing which is what makes the Brownshirts so beside themselves here.

Eat your hearts out, Brownshirts. :-)

diog; yes, you're right. the gig is up. here's the truth: i have an office in the basement of the parliament buildings. i share it with jim and jean, and we get along quite well, as we're bound together by our love for the neo-con ideology. i'm independently wealthy, thanks to the original cp rail deal, which was conceived by the ultimate neo-con bastard, sir john a. himself.
he instilled in his descendants an extreme hatred for anything liberal, and, of course, for seniors, children, the mentally challenged, the unhealthy, the environment, unions, and of course animals, especially small ones. i'm overweight, bald, wear suits and shiny brown shoes, read the sun and the post, drive a lincoln, live in oak bay, and have one eye firmly planted in the middle of my forehead. i'm happy about our progress, but, for the life of me, can't get coyote to keep his posts to 100 words or less. remember mark twain big fella: 'i'd have written a shorter letter, but i didn't have the time.'

It's all true - and he never puts the seat down either.

Michael continues to be at least partly right, in my view. Really, with dominant "corporate capitalism", the system has, in a very important sense evolved beyond certainly small business, individual enterprise "traditional capitalism", as it began and existed for a brief historical while (perhaps a couple hundred years??).As we have discussed here before, the "frontier" capitalism of the Brownshirt's wet dreams has not existed for a very long time now, in fact. That capitalism has evolved into its logical and extreme extension, being "the army of the corporate clones".

I would say, more accurately I think, that we are at that point with what started out as "individualist capitalism" where, like the pupae cocoon of the caterpillar, there is a need for the "new societal life potential" within it, to make the effort to break out, free itself from its confinement, and fly free on its own as a "higher life form".

Even I must wax poetic, once in awhile, as no doubt, even the Brownshirts here will appreciate. :-) No!!?? I am shocked! :-)

"but posters like Jean drive me nuts". As much as I would like to take the credit N, with all due respect, you're already there - Gasp! (nut's I mean)

Coyote, please make your posts as long as you feel you need to make them. Most of us prefer your wisdom to the reverse evolutionary drivel of binny et al.

I actually think it's the reverse, Dana, I think this participatory journalism threatens there "no debate" mentality. That's why they slithered out, tails rattling, so quickly at the mere mention of "debate" and horrors of all horrors, "democracy", in David Beers letter.

ooops, I meant to address the post above to Dana, not Dean -- sorry.

Ms Campagnolo will do nothing. She has had opportunities to act before this and has been silent. The speaker has been partisan beyond belief and silence.

The NDP will win this election. The Liberals lost in 96 because they did not hide their policies. They lied to get in in 2001. Now, the public knows who they are. Neo-Conservative, just like Harper, George Bush etal. They will lose.

Well said, lynn. I agree with those on this board who indicate that it's a hallmark of success for a writer when this is the level of opposition a piece musters. I think it's very important that the sort of comment and mentality that we see from rightwingers on this board continues to be identified with the rightwing. The more so, the better. As Coyote mentioned with the moniker 'brownshirts', it's the true face of conservatism.

Do any of you read unsigned editorials? Uncredited news stories in print or broadcast?
Do you give a lot of weight to "anonymous sources"? How about newscasters who wear bags on their heads to conceal their identity? Ever get to vote, get a bank account or line of credit or a mortgage under a pseud?

Didn't think so.

Why is it still expected that this media should be excepted from those norms?

For a while when I first got online, lo these many years ago, I found it refreshingly cavalier to be a made-up name. No longer. That novelty has worn off. Now I just find it childish. My apologies to the sincere among you but there it is.

See, the trolls and troglodytes have no intention of conversing or engaging in any kind of legitimate dialogue. They're here solely to disrupt conversation and/or dialogue. They have no concern whatever with ideas, only with disruption. And to a very great extent they are empowered to do that and get away with it because they can do it anonymously. Some of them, I grant you, are loony enough to do it under their real names but they are the rare exception. Most of them wouldn't be caught dead saying to peoples faces or under their own names things that they feel perfectly free to say anonymously and unaccountably. They are unwilling to be known for what they say here in their day to day lives.

Authentic dialogue is going to be required to face the challenges this century is presenting. Anonymity is the enemy of authenticity. Even in AA meetings nobody wears a bag on their heads or gets to sit in another room and speak via speakers.

So maybe this is fun for you.

It's just meaningless and empty fun as far as I'm concerned.

That's my piece.

Thank you for the odd answer, griper. I take it my perception of heavy sarcasm is not in error?

So we have an answer from you that, far from the one word yes or no answer needed to clear up the matter, says yes but implies no, and couches both answers in a strong suggestion that to ask the question at all one must be very stupid.

Another non-denial denial in fact. No answer, but given in a way that demeans the asker. Where have I run into this strategy before? Oh, yes. On the legislative channel. The Liberals use it every Question Period.

And of course we have no answer at all as yet from JIm. Could we try again? Please put your hurt feelings aside, if that's what inspired your sarcasm. I don't object in the least to your participation here whatever the truth of you is. I just think I'd like to know what that truth is. Fair's fair after all.

"Where he weak are protected and all are safe" - excerp from todays memorial speech for the fallen RCMP officers in Alberta.
What do you believe in griper, jean and jim? what cause would you find worthy of sacrificing your own existence?
Its seems to me that you are fighting for the opposite of that most noble idea so it leads me to ask "what do you stand for?"
sarcasm and stereotypes aside please answer my question?

Another personal ' methane moment ' from looking for a sibling Jean, who fires off, without even a civil "excuse my gas" -
"who needs a debate..you can just tune in to the nightly news" -

CanWest as the legislature. And Jean's possible long lost "brother" Michael Campbell as chief scroll reader.
But first...

Maybe you can apply for a job at Canwest, Jean - you might still get to keep your 6 dollar an hour
troll pay, and maybe get a complimentary copy of any of the papers to use when you visit the throne and compose your next speech.

Well Dana, if you're going to try to swim up the Tyee creek without a paddle in a canoe full of Loonies, be one, and be "fiesty" (courtesy of Jay) - Don't worry, Eldorado's just around the corner...

Dana, a named source automatically confers credence? I don't think so. I've known editors to confer pseudonyms for controversial pieces. Not frequently, but it happens.

As for the bit about the lack of desire for 'trolls and troglodytes' to engage in any sort of thoughtful dialogue, exactly! The dull and ignorant should be allowed all the room necessary to show off their dullness and ignorance. Let them hoist those petards even higher!

Plenty of newspaper articles and editorials are un-signed. I still read them.

I've heard more enlightening wisdom from some dude going by the name "Coyote" than plenty of folks who sign their name.

An idea doesn't need an individual behind it to be worthy of debate. Why does who sez it matter so much Dana?

Huh! You can get six bucks an hour for troll pay. Where do I sign up. By the way Brother Kit, you ought to check out your voltmeter, those are kill-a-watts (sic) on the scale. the reason you might only see dimlit bulbs is because it takes very low brain activity, thus little energy, to participate in a Tyee scrum.

"it takes very low brain activity, thus little energy, to participate in a Tyee scrum."

Jean Binnette is proof of his/her own assertation. All ad hominem bluster and not much else from my perspective.

ws,diog; sorry for not being as direct with my answers as you require. i think i've been giving you guys too much credit. i really did think you were a lot smarter than that. by the way, ws, i'm watching the memorial as we speak, as my line of work requires professional relations with the rcmp and, as a result, i have the utmost respect for them. not sure they should be brought into this discussion though.

Anonymity does rather put the game in the hands of the juveniles who think(?) they are scoring points. Having the editor remove obvious trolls is not a perfect solution, but why should anyone keep coming here to read endless "in-group" slander sessions? Maybe the deleted posts could be archived somewhere they don't detract from the discussion. When a poster claims to have been repeatedly denied the right to speech, interested readers could judge for themselves the value of the missing contributions.

The world contains trolls, juveniles and troglodytes. They can speak. They should speak. Their posts here are not a distraction, nor should they be denied the chance to score points.

I think their presence in these threads is crucial, a mark of tolerance, of honour. It wouldn't be much of a conversation if it were only with those who speak with our own words.

I don't know the laws of hate speech or libel, but I hope they are the only criteria for deleting anybody's contributions.

They won't speak, won't feel safe to speak honestly if you threaten their anonymity. Then how will you know their thoughts? How will they know yours?

Bailey, in spirit I am with you (although I've yet to meet a troglodyte; however, I have noticed that something (deforestation?) is driving the gnomes out into public)...but all these comments seem to converge to the *same* off-topic slanging match, revealing little in the way of anybody's thoughts. It simply drives away people wishing to engage in conversation: those people are important to me also. The last thing I want is to hear a echo of my own views: in fact, I like these sorts of forums because they help me form opinions. (My interest in calls for activity by the Q and her representatives is quite orthogonal to the specific topic at hand, as it turns out, but I hoped the conversation might shed light on our feelings about this strange institution.)

I confronted a liberal mla at a War memorial cerimony a couple of years ago and told him that brave soldiers did'nt sacrifice their lives to build the type of revolting society gordon campbell clearly envisions.
Look at those poor bastards in Iraq because of cowards bush and cheney, who by the way shirked when they could have anted up for their country.
What are they dying for?????????????????????????

Of course, there is another solution. If, while looking over the posts from a certain period or topic, the webmaster notices that certain IP addresses only come up in conjunction with abuse and disruption, then he or she should feel free to post those IP numbers and email addresses for all to see. That allows for heated discussion, even the odd loss of temper, without the ritual abuse.

boy you sure told him ws. too bad none of your soliloquy's make any sense.

Good idea RBMFC, why not have the Tyee enforcement people break the Coyote's bones while they are at it.

Baily, take two pink pills in the morning and one yellow pill at night. Just stop mixing them with your drinks.

It's the Tyee's website. They can do whatever they want. I think posting the IPs, pseudonyms and email addresses of the ritual abusers is a reasonable alternative to removing the protection of anonymity from all the other posters who just want to discuss, debate, argue, bicker, carp and complain. There aren't very many sites where, with impunity, a backbencher from the Kispiox. let's say, can call Gordon Campbell 'an ass-scratching mouthbreather' or where a shelf-stocker from the Waneta Walmart can talk about how shitty it is when his managers keep threatening to burn his house down whenever he tries to organize a Union. There's many good reasons to be able to say things anonymously. But that protection doesn't have to extend at all cost.

Somewhere in all that rhetoric RBMFC you have a point (I'm sure). Is a "ritual abuser" like a serial killer?, or more importantly, are they "fiesty", who decides?

Baily, your position on free speech is correct and anyone who really wants full debate (rants, conspiracy theories, accusations, even long-winded denials included), should be willing to wade through.

Tedious maybe, but you may have noticed life tends to be that way quite regularly, isn't it?

Personally, I don't think sage advice has to be preceeded by a "eureka" or a drum roll each time it's presented.

I do believe that some collective understanding does develop as opinion from one extreme, across the middle ground and all the way to the other extreme spews out.

We may not appreciate the form it takes, but at least we'll appreciate the consensus if it occurs.
It isn't always unanimous, but then surely no one is wants to agree with everyone else.

That is the reason The Tyee is such a great asset.

JEAN BINNETE, I haven't dug through the archives, but I do sense a pattern of you popping up in a defensive mode on most articles that touch on the BC Liberal government's policies or practices.

And you do tend to dump on the upcoming BC NDP goverment a lot, with special emphasis on leader Carole James. Maybe you are more astute then I thought.

But do stick around. You make such a great (verbal), punching bag.

Who's Carole James?

By the way, I have never defended any Liberal goverment policies or practices.

Dont forget to E mail Empress Iona, address at top. Her assistants want to hear some of that anger,especially Jeanies.

Jean et al,
Take two pink pills in the morning and one yellow pill at night. Just stop mixing them with your drinks. Get a grip[ on reakity.

For those who missed it because up can't stand "The Sun" or other Can-West" ( and I don't blame you - but I'm a sucker for the comics, I read them before I look at Michel Campbell column -the comics puts me in the mood) drivel you missed 2 articles critical of the BC Liberals.
The first titled "Child deaths on coroners'budget now" describes how the BC Liberals shifted the budget of investigating child deaths to the BC Coroners' Service without increasing their budget.
The second article "Liberals thumb noses at legal process" by Ian Mulgrew describes the process that the BC Liberals went through to deny the Crown Prosecutors due process to reach a contract with agreed to arbitration.

Even BC Liberal supporters, at some point, must realize that this government is lying to us. I want to know what you are going to do about it! Do you have the JAM not to support them even though they have made incredible erroes in accounting and judgement.

Kit, anyone who refers to the Constitution as "sub-minutia" is not motivated by a concern for our parliamentary institutions.

"I don't know the laws of hate speech or libel, but I hope they are the only criteria for deleting anybody's contributions." writes Bailey.

The "ayes" have it.

"That is the reason The Tyee is such a great asset." added Allan.

Indeed.

Most folks here are smart enough to know how to take and deal with a handful of Brownshirt trolls. Most of them, the lower life form ones who can't walk upright yet, but slither about on their own intellectual drivel, one simply ignores. The one's that actually manage to score a point, with some accidental intelligence, which happens, rarely, but it has been known to happen, one engages for so long as their IQ streak runs-, generally not very long.

Other than that, some of them can be a source of amusement, like watching fucking porcupines. or horrific fascination, like observing an Anaconda swallow a whole goat.

There is much about the observation and study of lower life forms that can be instructive about the complexity of nature.

For those of you who have difficulty coping with these Brownshirt trolls, and they are generally a retarded lot who speak typically in short monosyllabic grunts, and have short attention spans and a distinct inability to string so much as two ideas together, for sure, think of most of them as an opportunity to explore and understand your enemy. That's what I do with them.

Though in the back of one's mind, one should always be aware that they can, in a Brownshirt pack, be potentially dangerous in a mindless sort of way. Hence the need when called for, to be prepared to squish them.

OK why bike helmets are in this post is beyond me.
lets stick to the real issues at hand and stop going on about little minor things that really don't have anything to do with what is happening here in BC and Canada. i don't think conservitive ideals are anything to embrace and I don't think that fanatical left wing ideals are good either.
I can't remember what Premire in BC that hasn't been in a scandal or were corrupt in someway.
conservative ideals gives Individ, freedom to those who can afford it the hard left thinks you're a rich pig if you have 20 bucks and demand 15 from you in taxes.
What we need is a middle ground government that represents PEOPLE not Unions & not slimey mega rich cheap ass American corporations.

I think ideals of any sort are something to embrace. Conservative, co-operative, societal, behavioural, Socialist, financial, all kinds of ideals are good things.

Our problems arise when the people who promised to represent our ideals for money turn out to have different ideals than they said, or worse, none at all.

When someone in power starts insisting that his will must be supreme, and others who differ in abilities, beliefs, status, associations, race, gender, geographic location, or whatever should be denied consideration, that power freak is not expressing any ideals, Conservative or otherwise.

He's abandoning all pretence of having ideals at all.

The topic ... the topic!! Cripes, there's an important issue involved here!!

Support David Beers. Write to the Lieutenant Governor yourself. Never mind that she MIGHT not comply with David's polite request -- keep asking the questions!!

And maybe read the article again. It's important.

Your comment is a non sequitor, norman spector. Concern for institutions doesn't have to supercede concern for the way a constitution is manipulated and abused by those in power.

Simply musing out loud.

The Spectre, on the other hand, is a more Goebbelesque kind of rigthtist character, nearly as obvious, but certainly more intelligent and slick, thence actually more dangerous than the typically more thugish, low forehead kind of Brownshirt. He is an example of the more polite/genteel society, high-end neighbourhood sort of fascist, than the mere street goon variety we more often see. Though there have been others like him here, for sure, demonstrating that there certainly are "smart cookie" fascists, or neocons, if you prefer.

Clearly Nationalist, on the other hand, is just an honest fellow, whom though he gets much wrong , in my humble view, actually presents himself as he is. There is very little artifice I detect in him. Though I am a trade unionist, such as he would be "suspicious" of, as he has probably been conditioned by the media, even hostile/resentful on one level, I rather like him. He reminds me of one of those Molson (?) beer ads, where he proudly proclaims, " I am Canadian."

I am Canadian too, of course, except I prefer whiskey and dining in a nice restaurant with the old lady. But then, being a trade unionist, I can afford it, along with annual vacations, maybe a new pickup every ten years, a fairly new home that is paid for, and a "comfortable" retirement. But then I have learned the value of acting collectively with my social class mates, as opposed to those "individualist" workers who have not.(Though we are becoming an endangered species in "Minimum Wage, New Order Capitalism", I got in just under the wire, thankfully.)

And oh, Nationalist, though just a working stiff all my life, from the time I was fourteen, shovelling coal in my first job, I have considerably more than 20 bucks in my wallet right now, and I think you would agree, certainly at least a "respectable" bank account(s)-, and I'm pleased to pay my taxes to help provide UI and welfare for those who need it, roads, sewers, medical and all the other services a civilized society needs for ordinary folks and communities, even non-union folks. And you know I help maintain many an "individualist" small business, such as bake shops, auto repair, huge sums on tools and bike parts, rv parts and outdoor gear, clothing shops and restaurants etc., such as folks who only make minimum wage, or scarecly better, are simply not able to do. (When/if we well paid trade unionists ever go entirely down, so will many a small business, I fucking assure you. And non-union folks are going to earn even less, when we aren't around to set a benchmark that your employer has to at least come close to, in order to keep unions out. :-) You "might" want to think about that, in even an entirely "self-interest" kind of way.

Your comment is an ad hominem attack, norman spector--something which I was fairly proud of you for not doing until now. What makes it ad hominem is the fact that instead of accusing David Beers of needing more education, you could have just as easily pointed out what, in your opinion, was wrong with his interpretation of the constitutional powers of the Lieutenant Governor, which I hereby invite you to do--especially in light of your statement: "Anyone who refers to the constitution as 'sub-minutia' is not motivated by a concern for our parliamentary institutions." One might point out that, in view of your appreciation of our parliamentary institutions, you might wish to provide us with a clarification of Mr. Beers' error.

my point, griper, is that neo-cons like bush or harris or campbell are cowardly crooks who put other people in harms way to acheive their own cynical agenda.
they do not possess any courage and hide behind police or layers of security as they knowingly harm the very public who they had been entrusted to serve.
i await your next installment of "duckspeak" (mindless right-wing rhetorical bleating)

Nationalist, the issue of bike helmmets was raised by Ron Erwin, who like you, also paints himself as an individualist first.

As a life-long cyclist who has had my share of spills and injuries, I find anyone who cynically puts down safety rules because they don't like government regulation to fill the "dumber than a sack of hammers" role quite well.

There are institutions and groups home around this province filled with the brain injured and many of them are there because they laughed at safety regulations.

Go ahead and visit one of them and I'm sure some who can communicate will explain the facts of life to you.

That same me, me, me attitude gets picked up on by the young and impressionable, and carries over to the workplace.

Putting aside the massive pain and misery the "victims", their families, friends and others have to deal with, such absolute individual stupidity, just like not wearing seat belts, is a drain on our taxes.

Go ahead and be all the individual you can be. But don't mooch of our "public" health care system if you want to practice an I-can-do-what-I-want attitude.

In short Nationalist, the bike helmet debate got going because I'm a sucker for responding to stupid comments. Ok?

my god this is getting boring. don't you people ever get tired of listening to your simplistic rhetoric? most of the time i start off thinking you're being humorous or sarcastic and am looking forward to a chuckle, then i realize you're actually serious. this naive lefty blabber is very tiring and monotonous. fight the power man!

How do you find out if someone at the legislature has even received your email? Having dutifully sent my protests over Bill 20, I'm left with the usual foreboding that emails get chewed up by spam filters, or at best, ignored.

(Does anybody drink Molson's anymore? Not that I ever had any inclination to public displays of patriotism based on beer commercials, but haven't they dropped the "I Am Canadian" bs now that they're American?)

Thank you BC MARY for expressing what has been started. Here is a sample:

WARNING! If you think sitting MLA's NEED a financial advantage in elections, DO NOT READ THIS!
Isn't it enough, we pay for all the "feel good ads" before every provincial election? Let us "move on it" and do something!

The Honourable Iona Campagnolo
Lieutenant Governor of British Columbia, Government House
1401 Rockland Avenue, Victoria, B.C., V8S 1V9
email address:

and to all Citizens of British Columbia.

Your Honour and Citizens

In the interests of moral, ethical and fiscal responsibility in our democracy, the Legislature of the Province of British Columbia should not be used to fund partisan political campaigns! This government ploy using Taxpayers money to pay sitting MLA's election campaigns (salaries and staff time) during the period prior to the 17 May 2005 general election is unconscionable!
I thank you in advance for your action on this Parliamentary process. Although possibly legal, it seems to be lacking in moral integrity. A most serious breach of the Legislature's duty to steward Taxpayers resources properly!
Please be so kind as to implement the suggestions in "extraordinary" letter by David Beers of "The Tyee"!

Yours sincerely,
CIAN
Buffalo Creek BC Canada

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PS To the Citizens of British Columbia: Should you agree as well, please add your name and community and forward to your email lists of British Columbians and of course, to the Lieutenant Governor of British Columbia. Please use the BCC function for emailing, Thank you!

Cripes Innona, Please ignore Beer's "important issues", (apparently he's an American and probably doesn't get to vote anyway.) Even if he were eligible to vote, anyone can clearly see his (several) supporters are not playing with a full deck - see above.

Moreover, he most certainly does not appear to exhibit any real "Canadian" characteristics, and it's quite possible that he is in favour of BC separation. One thing for sure is that he doesn't know much about our Constitution and how our nearly perfect system of goverment has evolved. you might explain to him that the LG was chased out of council chambers almost 150 years ago by Amor de Cosmos and that no lieutenant-governor has tried to sit in on the affairs of goverment since

(The only thing I can think of that I might change would be to make it mandatory that only members of political parties who were registered voters could vote for political candidates).

I didn't know that David Beers came here from the US; is that true? If so, perhaps he could get one of the Canadian-educated Tyee contributors to explain the constitutional powers of the Lieutenant-Governor.

"As a life-long cyclist who has had my share of spills and injuries..." writes Allan.

Ehhh, right on. I'm getting myself ready to do the old C&W Railroad bed between Castlegar and Midway, hopefully in July. I did a lone wolf ride Midway to Kelowna last spring, on the old KVR.

Though bejeezus, I do hate a helmet in my small town and in the bush, which I nonetheless do wear riding in the higher traffic density cities, like Vancouver, where I commuter cycled for a number of years. Still, you are right, of course.

" ...haven't they dropped the "I Am Canadian" bs now that they're American?" asks TRBMFC. (Chuckling) Good one, bro. Which demonstrates the pointlessness of patriotic displays in this country, at least of the chest thumping kind, waving bottles of frothing beer overhead. We scarcely have a country left, in reality, and what remains is fast slipping south anyway, as part of Neocon policy, and virtually that of every other NAFTA supporting/tolerating chickenshit party of capitalism. Better we should focus on giving real meaning and content to our democracy, and meeting the quality of life needs and expectations of ordinary folks who occupy our geographic space, wherever and with whomever our future intersects, and whatever formal "form" emerges out of the future.

Increasingly, tying our future to that of the USA right now is just not a smart, safe, desirable or equitable place for us to be-, not for the forseeable future. That option, favoured in fact by most Neocons/fascists, is the choice of the lamb to lie down with the lion. Which is okay, until the lion gets hungry.

Better we should play with, and form alliances with other players/lambs in our hemispheric neighbourhood who likewise have a problem with the lion. (Cuba, Brazil, Venezuala, maybe Mexico, even Chile, Bolivia perhaps.) You know, the old trade union slogan, "In Unity There Is Strength!" :-)

But getting back on topic, though there is nothing wrong with connected wandering, I will have an email off to the AG today-, just to piss off the Brownshirts. :-)

boy that'll shake things up coyote.

Look, it's clear you aren't really getting this. There used to be more opportunities to have our views heard and discussed. In recent years there have been few. The instruments of public communication have been deliberately co-opted and dedicated to the chanting of only one view to a degree that is harming our democracy.

At least half of us held different views, and found ourselves stifled, cut off from any means of expressing our sincerely held political beliefs. As these Liberals have systematically victimized the poor, the elders, those who think differently than themselves, the frustration and dissatisfaction of the people has risen. Now along comes this Tyee site which allows people to speak out, and hear the voices of others who can speak out.

You call it naive and complain it's not funny enough, but I don't understand your objection. What is it you find wrong with it, exactly?

dg; sounds like you don't appreciate opposition much. would you like me to go away?

Griper:

It must suck to have somebody hold a gun to your head and read the Tyee. You don't like it, don't read it. You think you're tired of lefty-babble.... Man, I'm sick of neo-con-nattering parading as the voice of reason.

i like the tyee stumpy. some very good articles, especially will mcmartin's. always good to become more educated. i even read tieleman once in a while.

please disregard griper
clearly griper is a disturbed person with a pathological hatred of what he? refers to as left-wing nut-cases.
Responding to his? foolish entries, which are either a childish provocation re serious matters or a cry for help or both, will only encourage his self-destructive behaviour.
good-bye griper.
I hope you get it all sorted out.

You know what WS, name-calling ain't much better coming from you. Try and stick to the issues people.

Truman, With great respect, there's nothing ad hominem in my argument. I am not attacking David Beers' as a person, or his motivation or his character. Writing that he's in need of a (refresher) course in the powers of the LG, is a polite way of saying that he does not know what he's talking about, or that he's clueless, in suggesting that Her Honour can do what he's asking her to do in this letter--as anyone can readily ascertain by reading any basic book in Canadian political science. Had I known that David Beers was an American, however, I would have pointed him in the direction of the Byng-King affair of 1926. I also would have told him that dragging the Crown into partisan politics is not the Canadian way.

sorry griper, lets meet and shake hands.

Coyote, your in for a treat on the Midway to Castlegar trail. The scenery is amazing.

No more than 2% anywhere on that entire section. I'd recommend starting in Midway and going east. Trust me on that one.

We are definitely going to have to team up on those rail trails some time.

Of course it may have to be after the house cleaning in Victoria this May.

And put that helmet back on. We don't want to lose an old rabble-rouser who has a way with words.

I agree with Dana that folks who post here and whose contributions reveal them to be trolls (looking at, say, half a dozen of their posts) should lose their "posting privileges" for a significant period of time. That would make these post-article exchanges more civilized pretty quick. Otherwise people will soon be saying about the Tyee what they used to say about Playboy, i.e. "I just read it for the articles", except they'd really mean it!

Will you be the arbiter of access Jimmy?

Free speech has a price. Listening to idiots. Get used to it.

"We are definitely going to have to team up on those rail trails some time."

Anytime bro. I'm sure we could set up an exchange of email addresses through the Tyee editor. (Eh, editor?)

And thanks for the tip, doing the C&W, starting from Midway. I was going to do it starting from Castlegar.

My plan, at this point, is anytime from the last week of June. Thus far, it's another lone wolf ride, figuring on a week to a week and a half (allowing for "in depth" photo shoots), self-contained, but if you're into it, just let me know. (I did the KVR packing almost 80 lbs, which I'm going to try and lighten this trip.) I'd be honoured, brother.

Ehh, a good rap to here, even allowing for the Brownshirts. Who really are good for some heat and a laugh. :-)

And Stump, Michael , ws, Truman Green, the Mad Fox and Bloody Mary, and of course, sweet Lynn, (and where's Anne?) always good to read ya's, and know you're out there. Us folks got to hang together. There's too damned few of us. :-)

And Allan, you think about that.

I'll just leave The Spectre above, twisting in the wind, with his "...dragging the Crown into partisan politics is not the Canadian way."

Always good for a laugh, The Spectre.

coyote; why do you think it is that there are so 'damned few' of you?

Are we sure we want to live somewhere, where the legislature can be dissolved on request by interest groups?

gripper, I think he was referring to the non-facists. Sorry, don't get me wrong, I'm not referring to you and your friends who post here because you're awed by intelligent debate.

Pay attention to that old canine and you might actually learn a a little, but take those blinders off first.

What a sad exchange all around.

To clarify, despite what Mr. Spector says, it's not that the LG can't dissolve the Legislature as Mr. Beers suggests. Theoretically, dissolution remains within the Crown's reserve powers. It's just that were she to do so, she'd set off a constitutional crisis to rival the King-Byng affair he mentions. Hardly seems worth it just to bump the election date up a few weeks. But then perhaps Mr. Beers was just setting out to make mischief, which, if one is to judge by the heated response, he seems to have done.

"Interest groups"? "Setting out to make mischief"? From the reactions, it sounds like David Beers has tapped into something which could be effective. I think the zeitgeist is that people are heartily sick and tired of politicians (both ends of the spectrum) abusing their privileges.

Beers is American - end of story!

I'm with Mad Fox, it's interesting that defending our democratic rights and legislative interests has become synonymous with "making mischief". If that's the case, we all better keep our helmets on...and let the mischief continue.

Mr Beers may have known that his plea was hopeless, but that doesn't make this talk here mischief. Very much to the contrary. This is debate.

Remember debate? Used to be a crucial part of Democratic processes? Something people needed to engage in before spending 13 billion dollars of our money?

Let's see... $13,000,000,000 devided by 3,000,000 British Columbian men women and children, probably a few bears and marmots in that figure, but what the heck..,that comes to $4333.33 each. Without debate. Hardly worth mentioning, really, for people who don't believe those who disagree need to be listened to at all.

So how many British Columbians in your family? Cause of course then we'll have to multiply...

Ah, all the buzzards come home to roost: The androgyne, little jeannie spinette; the quisling "teacher," graper, who supports BC liar gutting of the education system; JIm, who wouldn't know a coherent and fair argument, if one bit him in the ass, and the white collar crowd: erwin, hayward, and the spectre of Norman, all too hypocritical and self dishonest to even smell the stench of their tainted money that so overpowers every decent citizen, and all too COWARDLY to post more than a one paragraph argument. What a pathetic and obscene cluster-grope. Democracy, who, US???

Spinette puts down his bottle to have one of his aides research the legalities re the leuitenant governor's office, graper, an educator, God help us, descends to rhetoric, no doubt like that he likely uses to bully any of his students that don't fit into his tiny little universe, and the rest of the prima donnas cowardly refuse to respond to both critics and logic. But then, how else would we know they're BC LIAR supporters??

And little JIm, sonny, EQUALIZATIION PAYMENTS HAVE BUT ONE MEANING: THEY ARE GIVEN SOLELY TO TO TOTAL ECONOMIC FAILURES LIKE THE BC LIARS, WHO TURNED BC INTO A HAVE-NOT PROVINCE 4 YEARS OUT OF 4. That's it, JIm, end of story, although the forthcomingness of equalization funds may have something to do with the federal liberal's DESPERATION to prop up the BC Liars, over BC Rail and-or drug scandals, and the ties of both to the federal liberals.

I must also disagree with Truman Green whose views, I generally respect on the question of anonymity. This is a callous, vindictive, morally indefensible government, whose contempt for democracy is as palpable as a stench. They may be reelected. Therefore anyone, at any way, under the DIRECT, as well as the general influence of this government, should be dubious about proferring their true identity. This includes those with government jobs or contracts, disabled people dependent on a government pension including a workman's compensation pension, government employees, and who knows, possibly every home owner at the mercy of a government calculated assessment of their property. The BC Liars have shown time and time again, that they regard ethics are merely something you use to attack the other guy...

Finally, I would suggest that Beer's assertion that the BC Legislature is not scheduled to sit for a FULL 28 WEEKS, is all the damning proof needed that the BC LIars, are the most unnaccountable and piratical pack of thugs ever to rule in BC. Shame on the pathetic substitutes for human beings that support them...

Whether Beers is Americam are not is simply irrevelant, when BC has Gordon LIar, aka, "CAPTAIN AMERICA," for a premier, with little jeanny spinette, as his all too eager faithful companion, "BUCKY," as general factototem, and butt-kissin' sidekick. How 'bout if you end this anonymous posting by postin' your true identity, Spinette? No, huh? I thought not...

Yep, Gordon Liar, aka Captain America, who gave away BC Rail, for a song to American CN, who gave away both accounting revenues and privacy concerns to the not-so-tender mercies of the American Patriot Act, who kisses Yankee butt on every possible issue at every possible opportunity...but Spinette wants us to worry about Beers possibly being American...do all the neighbourhood children STILL laugh at you, jeanie???

Beers' letter made me laugh, but that is all it will do. The LG is not going to dissolve the house, no matter what her powers, to call an election a few weeks before one is going to happen anyway. I agree with him that the BC Liberals have shown contempt for our Legislature, and if his letter does something to point that out then good for him. Participation in political debate is something we dearly need in BC. And to Jean Binette, who would like to limit voter participation, a big, fat YAWN. Congratulations for being the most boring person to post on the Tyee.

Your welcome!

looks like hombre still hasn't figured out how the equalization formula works. poor guy.

hombre, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, but that's only about one percent disagreement. Enjoyed your last few posts! Okay, I more than enjoyed them. You've almost got me rolling on the floor. But then, apparently laughter's really good for coronary blood flow--according to recent reports. I mean all this "in a good way," of course. (As in, I'm laughing WITH you.) All the best!

Tell us about how equalization works graper, old sot, and don't forget to factor in the 26,200 full time good paying jobs the bc liars lost last year, as the vancouver scum reported on december 7, 2004, albeit with the attempted concealment of TWO INCH BLACK TYPE HEADLINES, bragging about an utterly unfounded drop in the jobless rate, which turned out to be only BECAUSE gordo had quit counting those who had given up looking for work. One bit of job creation the BC liars excell at is taking good paying jobs that support community economies and transforming them into low wage, no benefit, part time jobs...be seein' ya, teach...

NO worries Truman, enjoy your posts as well. Best wishes to you and please keep posting, I only attack hyenas anyway, except in the odd case of a trigger happy mistake, for which I have and will always apologize for...

Chris H, I also laughed, and here's the column I wrote-- http://members.shaw.ca./nspector4/vansun87.htm
The column referred to in the first paragraph is posted at http://members.shaw.ca./nspector4/vansun88.htm

Hell Spectre, "tried" to read your most recent in The Scum, but lost you in your attack on Tyee when your tail wound up in your mouth, about the second paragraph in. After which you simply went round 'n round, fellating your own tail, endlessly, until your piece finally fell in an exhausted, incomprehansible heap. Which seems to be your writing style.

My wife's comment was, that she was surprised that "anyone", even The Scum, would actually pay you to write that incomprehensible gobblygook. Which was fair, I thought. :-)

"Remember debate?" asked Bailey.

Which is precisely why the Brownshirts and The Spectre have so much trouble with The Tyee, and are reduced to their short, monosyllabic grunts that typify Spinette, the Groper and Groovypimpin'. They are used to an environment like the Daily Scum and the other mainstream corporate "interest group" media, that edits out and sanitizes left wing views, to the point they only ever have to really "debate" (?) with themselves. Or what passes for debate there.

Coming here, they fall into a state of shocked apoplexy, "abababa, but..." where up against a real test of their ideas, they become tongue-tied and fearful of spitting it out there, for serious critical examination.

Real democracy is just beginning to happen here, Brownshirt apologists for the corporatist interest groups. Watch us and the "average citizen/ working class" interest in real democracy grow. And we certainly are an "interest group", no less than you folks are, and those "corporate interests" you mouthpiece for.

The May election here is our first test, of course, and is important, but regardless of what happens there, and a loss of this or that battle is always a "possibility", "the war" is just beginning to be engaged. For which we all, on the left, in the labour movement, working-class women, the poor, and amongst the other movements of the people need to prepare ourselves. One election in little old BC, regardless of the outcome or who "wins" it, is not likely of itself, to turn around global corporate capitalism from a development path it has quite conciously and deliberately chosen, and staked its future success on. We have already come too far down this road of New Order Capitalism, for it in all probability to be that simple.

This is not the short-lived post WW2 capitalism period, flush with war cash, afraid of Communism, willing to cut deals with the working-class and cuddle up to "mild" socialist programme ideas. This is a "triumphalist" capitalism everywhere, that doesn't have to be afraid of anyone-, at least, not yet. :-) Be patient, though not too, and be strong, my friends. This could take awhile.

as everyone can see here coyote, you certainly aren't tongue-tied. have you already forgotten about mark twain? and as far as respect for healthy debate goes, i doubt if calling your opponents brownshirts qualifies, but judging from the intelligence of your posts, i'm sure you don't understand the implications of such an accusation anyway. keep on dreamin' brother.

did anyone happen to catch norman spector's column in the sun about this letter? he has the nerve to accuse the tyee of bias because of its ties with the bc federation of labour, but his column appeared on the editorial page of a canwest owned neo-con, fraser institute controlled paper. "Since it receives its funding from the B.C. Federation of Labour, you can guess its political agenda," writes spector. And since the Sun is owned by CanWest, and the editorial page editor is a fraser institute transplant, you can guess that papers political agenda. Maybe Spector should write a column criticizing the Sun and the Times colonist for recieving funding from a massive conglomerate with a spotty track record for bias, but as tyee editor David Beers found out, that's a fireable offence, and I highly doubt Spector would come down off his soap box to actually criticize the company he doesn't even work for.

his heart and head seem to be in the wrong place, but that doesn't matter, he's not concerned with abuses of political power, he's concerned about a nice CanWest paycheque showing up in the mail. Go ahead Normie, go after CanWest in your next column, and after they discontinue your column for "cost cutting reasons" no doubt, maybe you can write for the tyee who won't stifle any dissenting opinions you may choose to express in something you write for them. But that's never going to happen, and the op-ed page of the sun plastered with your picture every so often will continue to be fish wrap, rather than an influential, thought-provoking medium that lenny and david so wish it to be, as long as Israel and the liberals and the politicians that sit on their board, like Frank Mckenna, look good. Keep ranting and raving about rabid left wingers and right wingers on the internet, and go to sleep knowing that you're part of the problem and not the solution. But perhaps your surname will have some real meaning one day, and you will just be a ghost in people's memory of the joke of an editorial page on which your byline appeared. Keep going normie, but like your name suggests, you're a ghost, and we see right through you.

For the Tyee, with its transparent political bias, to call any of the papers for which I write biased is like the pot calling the kettle black. For fans of the Tyee to parrot the line is pure hypocrisy.

" Keep going normie, but like your name suggests, you're a ghost, and we see right through you."

Good one. That'll keep me chuckling for the rest of the day.

"For the Tyee, with its transparent political bias..." writes the harumphing spectre of Stormin' Norman.

At least the "bias" IS transparent Norman, and still tolerant enough of Fraser Institute/ Corporatist mouthpieces such as yourself, that we will actually engage you here. The Scum and the other corporate rags you write for, like yourself, attempt to hide their "corporate class bias" behind a phony portrayal of themselves as an above it all, non-partisan, non-interest group objectivity. All of which, with the help of Tyee, making it possible for a seriously "alternate view of the economic and political universe" to be heard, is at the same time helping make "transparent" the nature of your own biases.

Time to drop the bullshit Spectre and the Scum. You represent one set of class interests and biases, while such as myself and others here, quite another. That's the honest truth of it, that ourselves, you corporatist hacks, and everyone needs to face up to in these times. It has historically been called "class war", and we are in it, big time.

Oh Norman, you're just so silly! The pot calling the kettle black - you beat me to that ol' cliché. The biases of the tyee are obvious - it's articles project progressive (call them left-wing if you'd like) ideas and there isn't a soul who is regular reader of this site that would deny it. In fact i don't think that the tyee has ever made the claim that it isn't biased. My understanding of the tyee is its existence is due to the fact that a very small group of new era capitalists and thinkers (and i use that term loosely) control too large a chunk of the media in B.C. The tyee is an answer to the scum and the provincial daily sportsmag - it, in essence, uncovers the stones that the dailies refuse to. There are multiple sides to every story Norman, the tyee tells just one of them and "uncovering" its bias is like exclaiming: "the sky is blue". It seems Norm that like most neocon idealists out there, any debate that does not coincide with your world view, is dismissible as hypocrisy (or worse, as left-wing whining) - perhaps it's time to look in the mirror.

Anonymous, Coyote, Michael and Chris H are quite right in their generally collective assertion that the Tyee is at least upfront about its biases, whereas Canwest never is. When I think of the spectre of Normal, I will always remember him on the regrettably short-lived "Island Voices," at the new VI, and his desperate attempts to shout down callers who disagreed with his views, along with his perpetual ganging up on Moe Sihota, with the odious pia shandel, on the sunday political panel, "Right On." In fact, when specter started regularly posting on the Tyee, his desperate strategy for the first two months was to simply ignore other posters, and to post his remarks as edicts, or Moses-like tablets, carved in the stone of his inflexible opinions. However, it finally became obvious to even Norm's dense little brain, that he was simply manufacturing contempt for his posts, and he now responds to about one out of 5 Tyee responses to his fawning attempted ameliorations of right wing thought...Norm, I hate to break it to you, but the majority of Canwest content, and its pernicious and dubious hidden agendas, continue to make Canwest "newspapers" UNFIT for a diarhettic vulture to void its bowels upon...

The recent DISGUSTING OPPORTUNISTIC crusade against marijauna grow operators -they're all dangerous psychotic criminals, don't ya know- over the death of 4 mounties that had EVERYTHING to do with the import of an American assault rifle and exactly ZERO to do with growing marijauna, is just one more reeking example of Canwest's incredible bias against truth and against the public interest, as well as their endless wilingness to act as stealth moral entrepreneurs for their friends and owners. Canwest "sound-off" threads are also notoriously stacked with the mindless opinings of reactionary dimbulbs like "teddyden," who seem to be able to post 6 times in a row, while those on the left must struggle to post once...perhaps you KNOW Teddyden, Norm, a buddy of yours, perhaps...??

I'm pleased to see the consensus in this thread that the Tyee is biased and upfront about its biases. I'm waiting to hear the same level of honesty from the editors, who are quick to accuse others of bias. For those interested, Moe Sihota and I can be heard debating politics on the Bill Good show on CKNW tomorrow and every Monday at 10 AM.

And we're still waiting to hear the same level of honesty from yourself, "Spectre of Normal".(Love it, Hombre! With you around, I don't need a J to get to grinnin' :-)

Come on 'fess up. It's said that confession is good for the soul, Far From Normal. Then maybe, with our biases on the table like pistols, we can get down to having an actual honest debate with each other. (Groper, like the androgynous Spinny Binnie, is a waste of time. They only grunt, like pigs in a wallow. But then, thus far, so is the Hit & Run Spectre.)

I'm beginning to think that I over-credited your intellect above as well.

"Oh Norman, you're just so silly!" :-D You've all been toking up, right? :-)

My views on the question of media bias can be found in the Tyee archives, in an exchange related to a Charles Campbell article on why he left the Sun. In light of the consensus in this thread that the Tyee is biased, I'm even more puzzled now that he--and Barb McClintock, for that matter--can lend their good names as journalists to the BC Fed-funded political agenda. But that political agenda certainly explains why David Beers would have written an open letter that has no chance of success, since it does not lie within the constitutional powers of the Lieutenant-Governor to do what he asks of her.

At least David Beers is out on the battlefield with the rest of us. He called attention to an outrageous abuse of legislative power and asked that it be addressed while the emperors at Canwest fiddled about where they should place their umpteenth article on Whistler and the 2010 Olympics... the top of the front page or...

the top of the front page?

"I'm even more puzzled now that he--and Barb McClintock, for that matter--can lend their good names as journalists to the BC Fed-funded political agenda." self-righteously opines The Spectre.

No more difficult than you can justify acting as a "journalist", how e're questionable, for the corporatist Can-West underwritten and financed Vancouver Sun, which depends on corporatist and general business class advertising revenue for its financial existance and raison d'etre. To say that corporatist/ business class "bottom-line cash" dependancy doesn't come with an effect on the editorial/ content bias of the Vancouver Sun, or its choice of columnists such as yourself, is no less "transparently" bullshit and sheer crass hypocrisy, of which you sre clearly possessed to overflowing.

The organized working class, represented by the BC Fed, assuming you are even right here, for I do not actually know that, has the right to similarly "invest" in media, where it deems it prudent and in its interest, as Tyee has the right to take that investment and cut what business deals it decides are in "its" interest, certainly no less than does the ruling class interest represented in part by Can-West, and apologized for by yourself.

Pull up your trousers here in public, Norman, your bare ass and the flaccidity of your bias is "still" showing. And a sorry sight it is, here in polite company.

"Oh Norman, you're just so silly!"

There are several conventions in our system that prevent a vice-regal representative of taking the kind of decision Beers' has requested--foremost of which is a limitation upon unelected officials. However, as Iona Campagnolo says, the office of the LG is an evolving one. We all know that, for instance, LG Lam was apparently prepared to fire Van der Zalm if the Zalm did not resign. Such an act would have been, by necessity, outside of the convention that the LG act only on the advice of the first minister. The reserve powers of the LG have been severely restricted and used only twice in the last century. The LG has the absolute power to dissolve parliament on her own initiative. If she concluded that "extraordinary circumstances" had arisen in BC, she could act as Beers suggested. In fact, the prime obstacle to such a developement would be that--ironically--it would not have been her idea, and she would be seen to have taken her lead from a political opponent of the government--something that, even Bill Clinton, probably wouldn't survive, if he were BC Lieutenant Governor. I still think it was a hell of a good idea for Beers to send his letter.

It is obvious that The Tyee has a left-wing, liberal, and progessive (or whatever you want to call it) bias. It is also obvious that FOXNEWS has a right-wing, fundamentalist christian bias. I do not need the editors/producers to admit this fact to me. The difference is when the organization pretends and boasts that they aren't biased. FOXNEWS' byline, "Fair and Balanced" is what drives all us liberals crazy! The Vancouver Sun continues to be biased against the NDP; just as it was four years ago. When you can walk into the Fraser Institute and see all your buddies sitting there, you probably cannot call yourself an objective and unbiased reporter/journalist/editor.

"I still think it was a hell of a good idea for Beers to send his letter." concluded Truman.

With which I concur.

Memo to Jean:

Your = 'belonging to you', as in, "i don't like your shirt"

You're = 'you are', as in, "you're welcome"

good article norman. i wasn't aware that this website was funded by the b.c.fed, but that is par for the course. the union leaders in this province certainly don't mind spending their members contributions on partisan politics. the figure for the campaign against the libs is rumoured to be $10 million, with $5 million coming from the bctf, who are in the midst of contract negotiations. kind of like telling your dad to f off and then asking him for his allowance. i miss watching you and moe go at it nightly on vi. it was good to see that moe finally found something he was good at.

$10 million, hey? Good rumor! Where exactly did you say you heard that figure, griper? Make it up, by any chance? I'd be interested, because before the last election there were some wild rumors going around about who was funding the NDP's campaign there. Turned out after all that they were total BS too. Apparantly somebody from some Liberal "PR firm" made them up to lend credence to their other false claim, that the NDP was secretly in league with the worldwide Big Union Communist conspiricy, for which read 'Satan'.

Also, of course, total BS. At the time the Labor movement and the NDP were quite distinctly on the outs, as demonstrated by the huge proportion of union people who must have voted Liberal to bring about that result we saw.

So name your source, Bucko. Let's hear it. Where do you get this crap?

I'm glad I could give you a laugh coyote, but don't let the tongue-in-cheek stuff distract you from the fact that Normie and guys like griper can bash the tyee for being funded by a politically active organization, and not turn that on CanWest, also quite politically active. CanWest donates money to the Liberal party of Canada, and the Conservative party of Canada, but obviously a little more lines the pockets of our governing party of the day, just in case they ever feel like raising corporate taxes, in which case Lenny Asper would probably call in a favour in exchange for all the hard earned advertising revenues he donated. Perhaps Normie will write about that next in his thought provoking columns that we have come to know and love. But probably not, he wants to stay on his CanWest/fraser institute soap box for as long as he can before his surname becomes a reality. Not that I wish him an untimely demise, it's just that I wish someone as articulate he, and in the position he's in would use his talent and intellect for good rather than evil. Emperor Asper has obviously tempted him with Dark Side Dollars, and David Beerskywalker is a threat to the media empire. And with three new newspapers flooding vancouver, it's going to be like the clone wars because the new canwest rag is recycling copy, coming out with a new clone to cloud the minds of forward thinking young jedis. Perhaps Darth Spector will change, and realize the error of his ways and he will dethrone the emperor either by writing a scathing column about CanWest's editorial noose (Asper just has to clench his hand and people in newsrooms have trouble breathing) or he'll throw him down a massive silo as lightning bolts shoot out of Asper's fingers. The fight will leave him worn-out and Beerskywalker will remove his mask and after a tear jerking exchange, Beerskywalker will leave in triumph, and the light side of the force will prevail. And when the Ewoks are dancing and Beerskywalker looks to the sky, he'll see yoda, obi wan, and Norman's spector looking and smiling down on him with their approval. The end.

wha; the teachers are spending $5m. that's confirmed. combine the heu, the bcfed,(who have already hired several people to pump their propaganda), the nurses union, the bcgeu and the rest.
does the figure sound so outrageous now? this is their only chance. if the libs win this one they're in to stay. would you hand the bank back to the ndp and carole who just before the olympics?

Tanks a lot "Kitty"

griper: Yeah, the poor BC Fibs, hardly a dime in their campaign funds, right? Poor you, no friends in high places, right? Just big donations by big corporations, to mention a few, by Mr. Wong of Harmony Airlines, Jimmy Pattison, and the biggest donor...isn't he the head of a major pharmaceutical company? And then there's all those self-congratulatory ads that have been running for months now at taxpayers expense. And how could we forget the 13.1 billion "no debate" dollars of OUR money, that will fund election promises for Campbell and crew, promises with no intention of being kept, conveniently no legislation passed to make it all the easier. $13,000,000,000... You guys make the Great Train Robbery look like a corner store heist.

sorry lynn, but i'm not a member of the bc liberals. by the way, you're comparing apples and oranges. jimmy pattison can do whatever he likes with his money. he doesn't force his workers to contribute to a political fund. do you think that every union member intends to vote for the ndp, and is therefore happy that their contributions are funding their campaign?

The BC Fed has a political agenda; funding the Tyee is an investment. That political agenda underlies Beers' letter asking the LG to dissolve the Legislature, which would be unprecedented in BC history and is not within her powers. (Truman, the Vander Zalm analogy is slightly akin to the Byng-King affair; Beers' proposal comes from outer space, or the US.) The Tyee/BC Fed political agenda explains why no one has been assigned to report on the rumours about financial skulduggery and personal peccadilloes in the Premier's Office that circulate on this site, and to confirm or dismiss them. Instead, the Tyee stands by as their readers impugn the integrity of mainstream journalists not reporting these "truths," thereby contributing to the deterioration of public discussion in our democracy.

We have to thank Norman Spector for the free advertising to the Tyee. :)

Now, Griper, all of this complaining about the BCTF!! They are just revealing the truth to the people of BC because the CanWest papers refuse to do so. To add to the BC Liberal election compaign, school closures decisions are being made before the election for the next school year. This will help Gordon Campbell so much! So many delighted parents pleased with the under-funding of their schools. These parents will be more than happy to have their children bused into schools further from their homes. Gordon Campbell's policy to drain the public school system of funding is really an effective way to get re-elected. :)

On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with the message from the BCTF.

griper, you are sounding more desperate by the post. If you had a clue about NDP financing you might make sense.

Ask your boss if you can take time away from dreaming up and sening these yarns to Tyee so you can check the NDP's books to see who is really funding it.

Forget it. I'll help you out because I understand you haven't learned to tie or untie your shoes and thus would have a hard time counting the larger figues.

The vast majority of funding for the NDP comes from individuals griper. People like your neighbours, the grocery clerk who checks your purchases, your mother.

Your kids are going to become radical socialists who denounce you and donate your estate to unions for organizing drives.

Will Dave Basi be involved in the fund raising and organising for your Liberal party again this time griper? What about CN Rail?

When Gordo steps down May 18 do you think he'll head straight to the airport?

sue; since when is it a teacher's responsibility to 'reveal the truth (as the lefties see it) to the people of b.c.'? i thought their job was to teach children in their classrooms. would you have liked the school boards to leave underpopulated schools open? we have 28,000 fewer students in b.c. today than we did 5 years ago. AND they've built several new schools and renovated several more. quit believing the b.s. so blindly. it's embarrassing if you're an adult.

you missed the point yet again, allan. i wasn't referring to ndp funding. i'm talking about separate campaigns by the unions. how have you managed to miss this one?

griper, one more thing. Unions must pass at convention a motion to contribute financially to a political cause or party.

It takes a majority of those attending and voting to be able to do that.

Anyone who is a union member in good standing, is entitled to seek election for positions that would see them attend the convention and thus be able to challege or support such motions.

Now maybe you know an instance where that
process isn't followed. If you do, you might just spill the beans on the offending union so we will all know for sure you are not just making things up.

Come on griper, gives us at least one accurate fact.

griper, one more thing. Unions must pass at convention a motion to contribute financially to a political cause or party.

It takes a majority of those attending and voting to be able to do that.

Anyone who is a union member in good standing, is entitled to seek election for positions that would see them attend the convention and thus be able to challege or support such motions.

Now maybe you know an instance where that
process isn't followed. If you do, you might just spill the beans on the offending union so we will all know for sure you are not just making things up.

Come on griper, gives us at least one accurate fact.

come on normie, respond, i'm not just some ghost poster who's talking out of my anus, i'm a real person, not someone who sits in victoria reading newspapers and filing a column for a Liberal party mouthpiece. Did i mention the how bad the palestinians are? I read that all the time in the paper you work for, or don't work for, or something. So why don't you turn your bashing inward and criticize the company that owns the paper you write for, much like beers did when he worked for it, and see what happens. No, you'd rather help the Aspers bust union balls, perhaps because you have none yourself. If you actually want journalism with integrity and civil political discourse, then why do you mock it in your columns? Journalism is about helping out the underdog, not towing party lines. Right wing and left wing are meaningless when democracy is threatened. it's about people, not partisanship. Can't you see what the letter says? Sure, maybe the LG can't disolve parliament, but shouldn't david be commended for his motives? But you'd rather mock it, rather than expand upon it. It's too bad because if you're such a constitution aficionado, maybe you can find out how someone can call an election early so the government can act with its $13 billion dollar budget with some legitimacy.

Anonymouse above, You should post in your own name and take responsibility for your views.

I'm still prepared to defend this column on the Mideast I wrote in the Vancouver Sun in 2001:

"It is time for Arafat, Sharon to fade away:

The Mideast conflict hit a new low a few days ago, when Yasser Arafat and Ariel Sharon politicized the celebration of Midnight Mass by the Christian minority. Their spat provided further proof that neither is likely to bring peace and goodwill to the Holy Land. It also demonstrated that the two are more similar than their supporters would care to acknowledge.

Mr. Sharon, a former general with a reputation for misleading his superiors, routinely calls Mr. Arafat a liar and says his hands are stained with blood. You wouldn't know it from meeting the Palestinian leader: They are small and white, dappled with large brown spots about the size of a Canadian quarter, and the handshake -- which Mr. Sharon has always refused -- is soft, almost feminine.

A charming and hospitable host, he greets his visitors out front of his Gaza headquarters. After the usual diplomatic niceties, he ushers you into his glass-enclosed dining area. Young, white-jacketed Palestinian men scurry about the large rectangular table, serving chicken soup in addition to more traditional Arab fare.

Under the watchful gaze of Kalashnikov-toting soldiers, Mr. Arafat wipes his hummus delicately, pausing every few minutes to serve guests -- spearing another piece of chicken here, one more kibbeh there. It is hard to believe that this man gave the order to attack Israeli athletes at the 1972 Olympics, harder still to accept that he launched the terrorists who killed 19 Israeli schoolchildren in Ma'alot.

A day at Ariel Sharon's ranch, Ha'shikma (Sycamore), provokes similar emotions, notwithstanding Palestinian suggestions that he is a war criminal. After leaving the highway to Gaza at about the point invading Egyptian troops were stopped in 1948, you soon catch sight of the largest farm in Israel, 400 hectares in the heart of the Negev desert.

Breathing heavily, Mr. Sharon settles with a thud into his rocking chair. His beloved wife, Lilly, was still alive at the time. Plying us with her deservedly-famous coffee cake, she re-filled our coffee mugs at regular intervals and, attentive to the conversation, added a word now and then.

Mr. Sharon has considerable difficulty getting his bulk out of the chair to gather the maps he wants to show me. Land is the essence of his existence. Even when in opposition, he would invite diplomats to tour the West Bank, showing us strategic sites and displaying an intimate relationship with the land spiced with frequent allusions to Jewish history.

He has spent his entire career asserting his people's right to settle in the West Bank and Gaza. Anwar Sadat once explained to him how for an Arab land is honour, and he says Jews should have the same attachment to their ancestral homeland. It is simply a matter of dignity, one of his favourite words.

As the conversation extended into the afternoon, I pinch myself to remember that this man resigned in disgrace after the 1982 Sabra and Shatilla refugee camp massacres, for which he was held indirectly responsible. I also remind myself that, in 1953, he led a ruthless retaliatory raid to Kibya against Palestinian guerrillas, leaving 69 Arabs dead -- half of them women and children.

Despite this past, Israelis voted for Mr. Sharon because of his brilliant combat tactics in the 1967 and 1973 wars. They were angry with Mr. Arafat -- for scuppering the Camp David peace talks in the summer of 2000, and for then unleashing a wave of violence to strengthen his negotiating position. Even Israeli doves tuned out when he disputed any Jewish link to the Temple Mount/Haram al-Sharif and demanded a right of return for Palestinian refugees, which would mean the end of Israel as a Jewish state.

While some believe he has finally decided to crack down on terrorists in the wake of Sept. 11, Palestinians are angry and the majority believe their goals are best achieved through violence. Likely, he is simply going through the motions again, to impress the international community.

The few, remaining optimists on the Israeli side believe that Sharon -- like Richard Nixon who opened relations with China -- is the only leader who can make peace with the Arabs. I wish this were true, but fear it is not. Israel's prime minister is proud of establishing 240 settlements in the West Bank and Gaza, and does not believe in evacuating any.

It is said that people get the governments they deserve. While Ariel Sharon and Yasser Arafat deserve each other, knowing both peoples I cannot believe that either deserves the leader it now has. Friends in Canada and around the world can only hope that these two shall pass before too long, before there is too much more suffering."

YOU'RE truly wasting your time Norman. Even if you were to say or do something they like, they would automatically go into denial and never admit the facts. It's too bad shock treatment has been outlawed in this country...

Here is an essay on the Occupation of Palestine, which goes beyond weird tripe about Arafat's liver spots, and shows what a difference it makes when a real journalist visits the Middle East:

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0503/S00099.htm

"Journalism is about helping out the underdog."

Not really. IMO, it's about presenting the facts, the truthes that underly those facts, and finding out who's responsible for acts of good or bad.

It's partisanship that's ruining journalism. Opinion is fine for the op-ed page, but it has no place in news reporting.

Mr. Spector:

It doesn't matter who says what. Identity is unimportant. Debate the ideas or ignore them. Your name is your branding, so for you it's advantageous to put your moniker on everything you write. Other people may not be so motivated to proclaim who they are, for a variety of reasons.

forgot the html para. breaks. sorry.

C'mon Tyee, fix that glitch and make sure line breaks can be done w/out having to know html code!

"bc unions have a political agenda"! Oh my god! really griper - thank's for filling us with that wisdom! Of course they have a politcal agenda. It's similar to the agendas of the various business organizations, yet different because union typically lobby in the interests of working people whereas business groups lobby typically for (are you ready for this) big business. and Allen is absolutely correct when he says that the majority of the NDP's contributions come from individuals. in fact, 84% of NDP contributions come from indivindual donors compared to 67% of the liberal donations coming from business. Oh yeah, only 10% comes from labour organizations (for the NDP).

What is all this, anyway? Mr. Spector, you talk as though the fact that an organization, the BC Fed, that represents hundreds of thousands of BC families, trains them and polices their work, maintains professional standards and skills, stabilizes the public service and protects it from partisan attacks is somehow not allowed to support the opposition party?

It has been a strong influence for real prosperity in BC, prosperity for real British Columbian families and communities, and moreover has been the victim of the most dishonourable and disgusting offences against democracy in British Columbia by the dishonest disaster that has befallen them. Pattison supports the Liberals, his fortune will likely vastly increase if they win. You aren't painting him with innuendo. Why not, if we're not to pursue our interests? Many foreign companies support the Liberals, in clear expectation of benefits beyond the dreams of avarice after they get in. Where's your objection to that?

I try not to hate things, but I really hate that we've allowed this system of legalized, hell, compulsory bribery that we call campaign financing to grow up here and corrupt our political system right at its core.

If you are making claims of balance and objectivity here, why is it only the NDP and the BCFed you are complaining about?

Other than for specific periods of time, I spent most of my working life being a trade union member, on occassion even occupying relatively minor elected positions, and I always expected my trade union to look after my economic AND political interersts. And the linkage between economics AND politics, I always made, in large part because I understood, even though I was never a member of the NDP, as this period of Neocon history under Campbell has demonstrated, what is won at the bargaining table can so quickly be taken away and legislated/negated out of existance, or into irrelevance, by a government hostile to the interests of the working class. And though all governments are, more or less, in my experience, given the nature of capitalism and the trump card always held by the ruling class, through its control of the economy, some still more so than others.

So, playing the political game, even to the limited extent to which the ruling class and its hacks like The Spectre seek to cripple the working class and its trade union organizations, IS important. (Even though I may have disagreed with this or that choice, very often.)

And while the trade union movement and workers have their problems with the NDP, in this overall situation, it has tended most often, to my mind, to be the lesser of the evils in the absence of a more meaningful working class economic and political democracy and power.

Which in this period the Neocons and their Brownshirt Legions have brought upon us, the opportunity to change may yet evolve out of all this right wing crap going on, and Norman, the labour movement with, perhaps even, if you are right, some use from Tyee, may become even more political, to the fulfillment of yours and the ruling class's worst nightmares. You have opened Pandora's box, my enemies. May we deliver its contents to you, in the fullness of time, is my class conscious prayer.

Griper writes: "since when is it a teacher's responsibility to 'reveal the truth (as the lefties see it) to the people of b.c.'?"

Since both you and the Vancouver newspapers are incapable of telling the truth, the BCTF is left to telling the story of the severe underfunding of the school system. Could you not read what I wrote before?

i thought their job was to teach children in their classrooms. would you have liked the school boards to leave underpopulated schools open? we have 28,000 fewer students in b.c. today than we did 5 years ago. AND they've built several new schools and renovated several more. quit believing the b.s. so blindly. it's embarrassing if you're an adult.

There is nothing embarassing about finding out and defending the truth about the corrupt BC Liberal government.

Griper, you have blindly swallowed the Gordon Campbell product line without questioning. Why do parents from small communities have to ship their kids off to schools an hour's drive away? Why should this be about saving a few dollars?
Why are private schools (many of which are of questionable value) florishing and absorbing thousands of students under Gordon Campbell's leadership and why does this become an excuse to close more schools?

The "i thought their job was to teach..." paragraph above was a quote from may pal, the griper.

"Fair and balanced" to the right wing media such as Fox means that their nutty and highly biased point-of-view is included in the news. "Fair and balanced" does not mean the objective truth.

Norman Spector writes: "Even Israeli doves turned out when he disputed any Jewish link to the Temple/Mount/Haram al Sharif and demanded a right of return for Palestinian refugees, which would mean the end of the Jewish state." Norman, don't you think the concept of a "Jewish State" is just a bit anachronistic and racist in the modern world? Imagine if Canada proclaimed itself a Christian State or a Moslem State or a Hindu State or a Catholic State. I invite you to take a "refresher course" on the Durban Conference on Racism. In spite of the fact that so many Western Leaders denounced the resolution equating Zionism with racism, it should be apparent to all intellectually honest people that a nation founded on the idea that it shall be a homeland for a group of people who share a similar history and religion, is indeed a racist nation. I look forward to the day when Palestine-Israel becomes a state, not predominately as a homeland for Jewish people, but a secular state where all are equally welcome--and all are provided equal protection and rights--and not one whose leaders fear the day when returning Palestinians shall outnumber Jews and somehow destroy the whole disgusting concept of a homeland for a particular kind of people. Why Israel gets a "pass" on this "Jewish State" nonsense is certainly way beyond me.

I feel very proud to be a Tyee poster reading over the excellent remarks and lively humorous rebuttals here today, combined the usual barrage of one part elmer fudd/one part righwing dimwitt, from our hilariously inadequate foes. Like Stockwell Day, they're all geniuses in comic relief, UNINTENTIONAL comic relief, that is.

Glad I could give you a laugh, coyote...the anonymous davidbeerskywalker post was hilarious and apt. But then the Tyee's honor guard is always good at manufacturing INTENTIONAL laughs.

David Beer's invitation to Iona Campagnola, is in the spirit of the Boston Tea Party...and rightly so as BC fights its resistance to neo-con neocolonialism. Truman's observation about the attorney general and Vander Zalm is apt. Unfortunately Campbell is still one whisker over the line of legality, but who knows what the future may hold...and the bc liars have used poor campanola again and again, as a prop for their ridiculous lies in their throne speeches, so who knows, the lady may be getting extremely annoyed...

And now to tutor the rightwing mutts once more, a thankless job as so many of them have morals that can NEVER be housetrained:Dear DIMwits -Yes, The Tyee IS biased. Give yourself a D for Dddddduuuuhhhhhh, in hooking up your thalumuses to your anal canals, instead of your frontal lobes. And as my erstwhile fellow Tyee elegantes pointed out the DIFFERENCE IS THE TYEE IS TWENTY TIMES AS UPFRONT IN ITS BIAS!!! Now, I want ALL of you to repeat that to yourselves 25 times while chewing on a moist copy of the Sun's EDITORIAL PAGE, WHICH were the Vancouver Scum, EQUALLY upfront in ITS BIAS, would be sectioned off in barbed wire sections, under such spike-print headings as: "This Columnist for Rent," and "THIS SPACE RESERVED FOR THE FRASER INSTITUTE (OR NORMAN SPECTRE) IF THE FRASER INSTITUTE RUNS OUT OF LIES." There! Wasn't that easy, rightwingers...well, you'd better run along now, you need your sleep, because with added user fees and clawbacks, your tax freedom is now WEEKS ahead of what it was under the NDP...sleep now, sleep...to fall asleep, just count sheep, or hell, just stare at one another...same difference...

I'm glad that people laugh at my posts because when I post anonymously it's to piss some people off and to make some people laugh. My chosen occupation constricts me from announcing my views to the world on the internet because if people knew who I really was when I was writing these things they'd probably fire me. My career at this point is pretty important, but if I thought I could make my living writing satire or doing stand-up I would. Unfortunately we live in the real world where comedy won't pay the bills. I would post under my given name if I wasn't fearful of shooting myself in the foot. Darth Normie can defend his Israel-Palestine record all he wants, but of course he doesn't address my other proposition of criticizing the right-wing union busters on their own editorial page. I will now post under this name as a call to action for Normie to step up to the plate and do the right thing, rather than the right wing. My brand of humour and satire will someday grace the pages of some lucky rag, and only when I can pay my bills will I come out of hiding. As of right now that's not a realistic goal. And I'm glad that being a star wars fan isn't considered geeky in this medium. But to Darth Spector, I have one thing to say, although you already are acquainted with the power of the dark side, the light side of the force will prevail just like in Return of the Jedi. From this point on I will be known as Norman's Spector, and hopefully he will continue to rattle his chains on the editorial pages of the Sun, so we can all have a good laugh once in awhile. Perhaps one day his conscience will haunt him so bad that he will move to a galaxy far, far away, or at least farther away than Victoria. Maybe he could move to Maui to go chill with fred and cathy, where he can sip on gin and juice, smoke endo, and keep his mind on his money and his money on his mind because it's obvious that it's not people he's concerned with. It's all yours Darth Spector, and may the force be with you because you'll need it.

I don't know, norman's spector, you might be being too hard on Norman. I seriously think he's actually a closet leftie, just a bit too aligned to come out. He seems to really like us. For a busy, top columnist, with six or eight columns to do all across Canada, he sure seems to want to spend a lot of time with us. I could be wrong, heaven knows, but I really believe this.

I too am impressed by the amount of commentary that David's proposal has provoked and find that most of it has been worth reading and considering. One point that I didn't notice being made however, though many posters did come close to mentioning it, is that when Glen Clark called an election instead of having debate on the budget - HE CALLED THE ELECTION THAT AFTERNOON - thus in effect asking for a plebiscite on the budget. That is far different than presenting a budget full of vague promises (promises made by the same proven liars who promised not to sell BC Rail) and then going off for five weeks of of American style pre-election campaigning on the taxpayers' dime. The Spectre is correct that it is highly unlikely that the LG would dissolve the house, even if technically she could.

It's hard to believe that Jenny, Joy and the new guy are that scary to the fiberal horde, but hey, what else can one conclude?

Truman Green writes, "I look forward to the day when Palestine-Israel becomes a state, not predominately as a homeland for Jewish people, but a secular state where all are equally welcome--and all are provided equal protection and rights--and not one whose leaders fear the day when returning Palestinians shall outnumber Jews and somehow destroy the whole disgusting concept of a homeland for a particular kind of people. Why Israel gets a "pass" on this "Jewish State" nonsense is certainly way beyond me."

And it has ever been beyond me as well. This expectation of western imperialism that the Palestinians should peacefully agree to pay with their land for the evils of European fascism in WW2, will not survive the long pull of history, any more than will the US Empire succeed in establishing a long term imperialist base for itself in Iraq.

Both are artificial creations in a sea that will eventually overwhelm them.

And Spectre's defense of it should surprise no one. He is a Goebellesque little Propaganda Minister for a colonial mentality Canadian ruling class, ever seeking to ingratiate itself to the US Empire.

Holy Mackeral! Coyote you old dog, cut the man a little slack, will you? Spector comes here with his attitudes intact and defends his beliefs and perceptions well. An honourable man, I think. Willing to engage in honourable debate. That alone sets him head and shoulders above the self-deluded bullies your post would place him among.

I hear the clear ring of sincerity in his posts. The fact that he selects subjects for his columns to suit what the market is buying is no shame. We all do that, even when no paycheck or career hangs on it. Don't be so mean. He really doesn't deserve it.

It really is a shame that the dialogue this article seems intended to create, has been bushwacked by some individuals who appear determined to provoke anger with name-calling. From here on in I will not read the comments at all and instead make my own decisions based on my perceptions of the articles.
Good day

coyote; do you bore yourself too? 'will not survive the long pull of history'. give me a break man, you're killing me.
rkewen; ya right. the fudge-it-budget. chock full of lies and deceit. but it won them the election, albeit barely, along with the january to may announcement a day campaign. glennie doled out more money than anyone could imagine, especially his poor finance ministers, who were running out of places to borrow it from. plus he froze tuition to win him a few more cheap votes, only to starve the universities of cash for the next five years. maybe that's why coyote writes the way he does. by the way, what's your little socialist poster boy glennie doing now i wonder.

Truman, The UN voted in 1947 to create two states, one for the Palestinian people, one for the Jewish people. Canada was a member of UNSCOP, the committee that developed the partion plan, and voted for that resolution. Canada also voted to repeal the Zionism=racism resolution in 1991--a resolution that will forever be one (of many) blots on the UN's reputation. A single state, given comparative birthrates, would inevitably become a Palestinian Arab state--possibly secular, possibly religious, but in either case denying the Jewish people, one of the two indigenous peoples in the area, the universally accepted right to self-determination.

Norman Spector, "[...] the integrity of mainstream journalists not reporting these "truths," thereby contributing to the deterioration of public discussion in our democracy."

Are you from another planet? The quality of 'mainstream' journalism around here is unspeakably poor. Burdening Tyee forum posters with the quality of public discussion is nuts. Not to mention ironic. Ditzy is cool in some quarters, but you've got to be cute, too.

Norman Spector, "[...] the integrity of mainstream journalists not reporting these "truths," thereby contributing to the deterioration of public discussion in our democracy."

Are you from another planet? The quality of 'mainstream' journalism around here is unspeakably poor. Burdening Tyee forum posters with the quality of public discussion is nuts. Not to mention ironic. Ditzy is cool in some quarters, but you've got to be cute, too.

I do not know why BC is so surprised that the Liberals would use this tactic first, to avoid scrutiny, and second to buy votes. Consider their first campaign that was built with "solid" planks of sawdust.Everything they said they would not do they did; they tore up contracts, put healthcare into "blue code",devastated the lives of the elderly and disabled, closed doors of refuge to abused women and their children, sold BC Rail... I could go on and on. If they pull this one off there is only one phrase yhay comes to mind;
"Fool me once shame on you,fool me twice shame on me."

The L Governor in Alberta refused the Klein governments use of special warrants while the legislature was not in session in the early 1990s.

And what if Ms. Campagnola received not only David's letter but a raft of post cards from Tyee readers asking her to .... and what if...

Brian, I don't recall the LG nixing the Alberta special warrants. My recollection is that the opposition criticized the Klein government in 1993 for approving special warrants without passing a budget. The big concern was whether Klein would pass a budget before calling an election--which was the same issue as in BC before the 1983 election. In that situation, the LG approved the special warrants over the objections of the NDP and a budget was passed after the election.

Griper, instead of griping why don't you and your friends get together and spend your $5 million dollars to send out the message you want. It's called democracy and you can ignore or accept it as you wish. You can always take the BCTF to court to get them to stop their ads if you believe they are lying. Atleast it's upfront. Not like the BCTF is doing push polls or anything.

nice work but gordo pulls her strings.

The Canadian Taypayer Dufuses are taking the HEU to court in a class action suit for hospital wait lists. The only problem with this is that the BC Liberals have allowed the wait times to increase steadily over 4 years and this had nothing to do with the HEU. I remind everyone that the surgery wait times did not go up in the NDP decade. The stategy of proving a point using litigation works only if the media is behing you, so Griper, it is true that you can help out the BC Liberals by launching another one of these nonsense lawsuits.

The fudge-it budget lawsuit was dismissed very quickly since it was just BC Liberal nonsense. That so-called fudge-it budget was a deficit only by a fraction of one percent. It was no big deal. You can safely call it a balanced budget. The NDP had the largest surplus in history without the help of equalization payments. The BC Liberals have so demaged the BC GDP that we are now a have-not province.

Push-polling should be condemned, as should be the spreading of the scurrilous rumours about personal peccadiloes and financial scandals that one routinely finds on this site. What's worse, the BC Fed funded Tyee has done nothing to investigate these rumours and to confirm or deny them, allowing them to fester out there under the allegationt that they are being hidden by mainstream journalists. With respect to Brother Tieleman, that kind of politics is equally corrosive of our democracy, if not more so.

I would gladly point out that the analysis of many years of wait list data for BC has been done by Boris Sobilev of UBC and Adrian Levy of UBC. This would be useful information for the lawyers of the HEU. Wait lists were stable under the NDP and they went up exponentially under the BC Liberals. The Canadian Taxpayers Federation should be bringing the class action suit against the BC Liberals and not the HEU. The wait times did not go up under the NDP.

Go to the Canadian Taxpayer Federation website and read what is there and ask yourself if they are representing the taxpayers. This is a web site for the Conservative Reform Alliance Party (CRAP).

Norman, in my dim mind, I alway find your nebulous criticisms unjustified. Can you be more specific about the "scurrilous rumours"? What are you seeing? My impression is that you are just trying to discredit everything that is written here.

Sue

They're are a few good examples above your posting in the McClintock/Plant thread. W

The person who identified himself as, "norman's spector" (not the real Norman Spector) writes: "My chosen occupation constricts me from announcing my views to the world on the internet because if people knew who I really was when I was writing these things they'd probably fire me."
My curiosity is really killing me. Can you give us a hint at what kind of a job that would be without identifying yourself--or maybe an analogue of that job? I feel a bit freakish, being at odds with so many of my leftie compatriots because this anonymity business is a huge issue with me, and I'd never post anonymously even to say, gain access to an Ebola cure--if I became infected--if a condition of getting the cure was that I'd have to post an anonymous ad hominem attack on somebody on Tyee-- or any other kind of comment.(Okay maybe I'm exaggerating on THAT) I'll cop, in advance, to the self-righteous plea. Can anyone elighten me? Is our society really that dangerous? It seems that the least thing we can do in memory of people who got dropped out of planes or boiled in water in Central Asia, or treated with Zyclon B, or stuffed into Palestinian ghettos, (see refugee camps) is to step up and be counted on Tyee.

I'm amazed how little we learn from history, how comfortable so many are in defending this government's record of abuse regarding our human and democratic rights. We can read the books, watch the movies, munch the popcorn, sit back and with convenient distance from the center of the brutal storms that have often raged through our world's pivotal moments, often silencing the human voice... we place ourselves, with the safety of historical distance back in the eye of the storm, and go on and on as to how we wouldn't have allowed it to happen, how we would have courageously made our voices heard and loudly.

So here it is again, that silence closing in on so much of the western world... and here again, also, are those who trivialize it, finding Mr. Beer's letter laughable in it's valiant attempt to defend our rights.

I would suggest then, IF the BC Liberals win this next election, every one of their MLAs elected under this premier should be supplied with their own bunker. In the end, and the end will come, they will need it.

Truman Godwins the thread!

In yesterday's Daily Show, Jon Stewart interviewed Harry Frankfurt, a former professor, who wrote and recently published and essay titled "On Bullsh*t." In the interview, which you can view at online, he said this about political spinners, "They don't care about the truth, they care about a certian impression in the mind of the people they are addressing. They are engaged in the enterprise of manipulating opinion, they are not engaged in the enterprise of reporting the facts." Sound like a CanWest job description.

On a related subject, activists in New Zealand have initiated a letter writing campaign to Michael Cullen, their representative on the World Bank, in order to protest the appointment of Paul Wolfowitz and to urge him to vote against this American's inclusion in the organization. Who is the Canadian representative, and does anyone know that person's address?

Contact John Manley, Minister for Foreign Affairs

By phone: 613 992 3269
By fax: 613 995 1534
By email:

By Email to Fax:

By mail:

418-N Centre Block, House of Commons,
Ottawa, ON, K1A 0A6

What truly amazes me in all these threads is the belief, by both left and right, that our electoral system will somehow change the status quo. I know that Poli Sci profs will tell you that Sweden and Norway actually changed an existing power structure with a vote. But that example only serves to provethe point. No election has ever resulted in an actual change in any system of power. Hyperbole aside, all "democratic" electoral systems do is change the officers on the bridge. The ship remains the same. Those of us gnashing our teeth on these pages are all complicit in maintaining the existing power structure.

I love norm, no matter how stupid, transparent, whoreish and obviously lame his every remark is...dddduuuuuhhhhhh!!!!!

Do YOU want to join the Norman Spectre fan club? Please send three Canwest editorial page bird cage liners, and a three dollar bill to DDDDDUUUUUHHHH!!!!!.com...

Real barking m-f-c, don't get your hopes up that John Manley will ever step up to the plate on behalf of anything perceived as good by the vast majority in the world.

Manley has his nose embedded so deeply up the dark side of Wolfowitz and company that he is now shilling on behalf of industry to bind us completely to the whim of both corporate and political bosses in the U.S.

He is one of three to author a recent report arguing that Canada and Mexico should essentially become, in all but name, the 51st and 52nd states.

According to him, we must harmonize our immigration, business practices and just about everything else so that we follow US rules.

On the immigration issue, this dolt has the stupidity to echo the false accusations made by American Republicans and Democrats (like Hillary Clinton), that 9/11 terrorists entered the US through Canada.

Oh, yes one FBI agent did get suspicious, but was treated as an alarmist.

Canada got better treatment on the now famous South Park cartoon segment "Blame It On Canda", than these real Americans would ever give us.

But on the other hand, it might just be fun to send that Manley guy a letter seeking his help to tar and feather Wolfowitz, especially if you can get a newspaper to run a copy of it.

If he won't help then make him publicly cringe.>

Wolfowitz as head of the World Bank, eh. Isn't that like putting the fox in the henhouse? Thanks for Manley's numbers but I don't think he's going to complain too much.

I agree about Manley, allan. His comment on the subject was "No one wants to pick a fight with the US right now." Actually, it isn't about picking a fight, unless they want to, but about refusing to grant them any further power to blackmail countries into supporting their foreign policy. Maybe the techtonic plates will do us all a favour and shrug so the US sinks under the ocean, but given how unlikely that is, let's just refuse to ratify Wolfowitz instead. What kind of draft copy did you have in mind, allan?

Dear Wally, Not so. Elections have changed the nature of societies. I'll offer you an example.

Kennedy vs. Nixon. The American economy had become addicted to war production and was having a terrible time breaking the habit.

War production is essentially both high-priced and wasted, provides nothing to meet a demand. Expensive manufactured goods are sent away to be blown up. The Viet Nam war was for sale by France, and the powerful industrial influences in the States were viewing it as the perfect sinkhole to provide unlimited opportunities to increase the production of disappearing widgets.

If Nixon had won that time, the war would have ramped up sooner, spread farther and cost more lives than it did.

After his election Kennedy, to ease the horrors of war, which he knew from personal experience, claimed the moon, thereby creating a fix that would have the same effect economically; wasted production, lots of high paying jobs,etc. But no need to throw millions of young lives away for it. Plus the advantages, whatever they are, of being mobile in space.

Even if Nixon had the wit to think of it, he would never have cared enough about other peoples live to bother doing it. There would have been millions more dead, who are alive instead.

That is an actual difference in a system of power, brought about by democratic processes.

wow! what a load of garbage. bailey, where have you been getting your history from? that is something special!

Excellent, Bailey! I really appreciated the third paragraph, "War production...provides nothing to meet a demand." and, "The Viet Nam war was for sale by France." I think your comments show a pretty unusual understanding of realpolitik. Hi, griper. Calling Bailey's comments, "a load of garbage" doesn't provide a whole lot of empirical information on why he's incorrect, incidentally.

you mean that some may actually believe this load?
kennedy flip-flopped about nam like mike harcourt did about just about everything. check it out for yourself truman. i don't have time to educate naive ideologues that would rather read revisionist history that suited their needs.

Dear griper; It may be history, but it's not ancient history. As it happens, I was in the area at the time. I saw what was done and heard what was being said myself.

I've noticed that you generally get emotionally upset when confronted by the idea that there are so many ways of seeing and interpreting things, often conflicting ones. It's just a fact of life, not a personal attack.

People don't have to be wrong just because their views differ from yours. Neither do you have to be wrong just because you don't agree with someone else who isn't wrong.

Nothing is ever quite that simple.

Hey, allan, after reading Michael Lind's essay on Wolfowitz in Salon, I'm starting to think that his appointment to the World Bank is, as Martha Stewart would say, a good thing. I mean, the guy has been consistently wrong about everything he's ever tried to pull off. Not just wrong, in fact, but so up his wazoo that Lind calls him the Mr. Magoo of American foreign policy.

This could spell the end of the IMF ...

Griper, I have lotsa time so let me try to explain why I was so appreciative of Bailey's remarks: I was 22 in 1967 and pretty much horrified by the Viet Nam War. Since then I've never heard a rational explanation of exactly why the Americans fought that war, because even then it was obvious to me that unless they were willing to bomb the major cities a la Dresden they were never going to win it--and anyway what would a victory look like? I think Bailey's explanation is, not only a recognition of Eisenhower's warning about the military industrial complex, but a very sophisticated and plausible explanation--certainly much more intelligent than anything I could come up with. Also, if Eisenhower feared the power of the MIC, I don't think it's overly "revisionist" that Bailey believes it was largely responsible for the war. Why else would they send 58,000 of their own youth to die, and kill millions of Vietnamese? I've always chalked it up to sheer stupidity, but that's probably fairly shallow of me.

truman and bailey; i do apologize if i over-reacted, and i certainly didn't mean to sound angry. you've both made some good points in your rebuttals. that war, as are most, was outrageous, but to imply that kennedy was anti-vietnam isn't accurate, and it seemed to be the crux of the argument. again, sorry to paint you with the same brush as the people on this thread that have a problem being civil.

" As it happens, I was in the area at the time." writes Bailey.

I was in Vietnam myself, as part of a minor Canadian fleet, escorting a US convoy into Saigon in, ohhh, it had to be 1958. You weren't, by wierd coincidence, part of that, were you?

Or was that much too plebian a level? :-)

It was the final linchpin in the process of my radicalization.

Thanks for missing me Coyote. Your post was on March 11 and I don't actually get The Tyee in my in-box until Monday, which would have been the 14th. I then try to read one article and its comments each day. This is why I often have late responses to things. Especially when there are hours of comments like this!

I'd like to respond to the question of anonymity. Now that I'm self-employed and no longer on Welfare, I don't really care if I'm anonymous or not. I prefer to use only my first name on this site because I sometimes get self-conscious with all the letters to the editor I write using my full name, and these comments lists are a chance to take a break from that. I'm sure if people in my community are following my comments some of them might have guessed who I am. I suspect, from something that she said, that lynn and I live in the same community. (I had a letter in the local paper last week, lynn.)

My question for Trueman and Dana (and, Dana, you don't give us your last name either--there are a lot of Danas in B.C.)is this: do you believe in the secret ballot? If so, why? There is your answer as to why some people have legitimate reasons to want to remain anonymous. (I actually ran into a friend who was campaigning for the Green party before the federal election who thought we didn't have a secret ballot in Canada!
As this seemed to be the ignorance level the Greens were aiming at with their light-weight campaign materials, it was a big factor in my not voting for them!)

Anyhow, all this talk about Jimmy Pattison made me wonder...did Glen Clark get his job with Jimmy as a reward for selling out people on Welfare? I mean, B.C. Benefits turned Welfare legislation upsidedown and that must have made it easier for the Liberals to make it even worse. They all support the corporate agenda, it's just that the N.D.P. were going to boil us starting with the cold water instead of throwing us into the boiling pot right away.

Truman green, bloggers have been fired for criticizing the wrong people on their blog. posting anonymously merely lets them speak their views without fear of retribution. the web is world wide; it's not just a clever name. Google your own name and see what comes up. A lot of hits come from posting on this site. Anonymity is sometimes necessary for that reason alone.

Curiouser and curiouser, I googled "The REAL barking mad fox channel" and it called up pages of search references, including a few to other sites who've been downloading scripts from this one.

Hi Anne. Congratulations--you have managed to embody three discredited debating techniques all within the confines of two words--"Secret Ballot."
To wit: straw man, non-sequitor and red herring. Suffice to say that I do not share your celebration of the raising of fear and secrecy from shame to virtue. I wrote a thousand word rebuttal, which waits on MSWord, but the self-righteousness of the piece makes me abhor the consequences of posting it here, even anonymously--which I have vowed never to do. To AR: Do you really think it's possible that I could resist self-googling, even on a regular basis? Thanks for the warning but my personal fear threshold appears to extend a bit further out than that of some others, who shall remain, at their request, anonymous.

Wow, Truman, you sure are defensive about this one!
One of my letter-to-the-editor (under my full name, as they all are, still) lost me employment a few years back! In a society where some people have power over others, some might choose to be anonymous for very valid reasons. The secret ballot analogy is not a "non sequitor" at all. If everyone knew how we voted, then employers would be using threats to force employees vote their way, people would be physically threatened if they didn't vote a certain way! People might choose to be anonymous on-line for the same reasons. As someone else pointed out, bloggers HAVE been fired for opinions expressed on the Net. As our society moves more in the direction of fascism, more and more people will find it necessary not to attach their identities to their opinions. Most people who are afraid of the consequences of expressing their opinions don't use false identities, they simply don't speak up at all! I think this is very sad, but, in some cases, I understand it. I am NOT "celebrating the raising of fear and secrecy from shame to virtue" at all! I find it most regrettable that people feel they have to do this. I agree that it is sleazy to "troll" under a pseudonym as some do, but there are many people using pseudonyms here who have valid comments to make.

Truman, I celebrate your courage in using your full name. Maybe, though, you have never been punished, as some of us have, for speaking truth to power.

I'd like to read your 1,000 word rebuttal! If you want to send it to me I'll actually put my e-mail address on this list, thus enabling anyone who wants to to find out who I am, since I do not do e-mail anonymously. I'd prefer to be just "Anne" here, but if that's what you'd like...

Anne, I always understand fear--in the present and throughout history--it's at the root of almost all atrocities and genocide--and I'm familiar with the secret ballot and the need for it, since its introduction in 1872 by British Prime Minister, William Gladstone. It was introduced in order to allow male labourers and workers (not female) to vote without being intimidated by their employers and landlords. For the first time renters were able to vote as long as they paid a high enough rent. Yes, I've lost jobs because of speaking out. Once as a teaching assistant--by participating in a petition against a school administrator. And I've had my life threatened on three ocassions--and lost friends and family for the same reason. You might have noticed that all of the writers, journalists and editors that we support on this site--and those government and so-called "right-wing" opponents that we criticize-- all stood up and identified themselves, often at personal risk, and always at risk of ridicule and criticism. I don't expect everyone to abide by my self-righteous personal code of ethics, but I believe that some people might be giving in to fear too easily. All the world's bullies, criminals and tyrants depend on fear to do their nefarious business. I bet there was even a time, early in the career of Adolf Hitler, when people could have quashed his murderous intentions by standing up and identifying themselves and pointing out that he was talking like a lunatic. By the time the trains started rolling towards the concentration camps it was too late. This is all fairly high falutin, I know, but it seems important, at least, to me. I'm sure many people believe that they have a legitimate reason for anonymity--but 90% of posters? Hard to believe. In spite of this, I think you made a very good point about some people being so afraid of identifying themselves that they refuse to speak up at all--and that an anonymous forum such as this, gives them the opportunity to express their opinions. But is this the ideal we should be reaching for? Please don't put your email address or last name on this site because of this discussion. I suspect that you don't really need to read my 1000 word rebuttal in order to understand where I'm coming from, as they say.

A double Godwin!

Are we here to debate ideas, or individuals?

I don't care who you are. I care what you think. I don't want to put my real name out there. My choice. Please respect it and stop intimating there's an aspect of cowardice to that decision.

Anonymous postings don't allow the reader to assess whether the writer has a vested interest, which is a legitimate factor in evaluating arguments. In any case, in light of this week's poll, Beers should be pleased that Iona did not and could not grant his request.

Thanks Truman. My loss of employment was due to criticism of a school administrator too! I too, have wished people would speak up more before we suddenly find ourselves living under fascism. Once fascism was entrenched in Europe, however, anyone who spoke against it was dead or in a concentration camp. After that, you can bet the people working in the resistance movements were being as anonymous as possible! I agree with you, it is too bad we have to get to that point at all before people nip the oppressors in the bud! But, it seems that it is a part of human nature to knuckle under to the bullies either out of fear or out of admiration of anyone with power. (I'm not saying that idealism and honour are not part of human nature too, but I have felt overwhelmed by the sell-outs in the past few years, often finding myself the only one speaking out on some issues and having to pay for that by being labelled a nutty fanatic.)

Truman Green's arguments are very good ones. He's absolutely right about the need for courage to oppose oppression everywhere. Mr. Spector's notion that you can't properly assess the speach without a good view of the speaker is very true as well.

But I have to come down on the side of protecting the privacy of posters for a more functional reason. If those who post are vulnerable then their words may be very expensive to them and their families. I've seen this government and it's 'contractors' destroy careers and families for disgracefully trivial reasons. If somebody has to risk so much to speak out, they may not speak at all.

Then how will we ever find out their thoughts? How will we hear their experiences?

We need this conversation desperately in this province at this time. It's the only thing we have even close to debate. They've closed the Legislature weeks early for pity's sake! How much more explicit can it get? We must hear this stuff somehow, and as far as I can tell, these sites are the only place.

If you know something the people should know, if you think something you want us to know, I don't care if you pretend to be Mme. LaFarge. Bring it out into the light.