Let me guess Ben Quick is actually Lewis Swift.

The BC Libs also made a mess of the apprenticeship programs as well and many first year apprentice had to do that year over again for some reason i'm not clear on all the details but i'm sure you wouldn't have to look much to find that out.

A handwringing situation no doubt,where will those high taxpayers of the future spring from? In Spain a disaster in teaching of english as a second language occured in 2003 when a reputedly respectable school with over 100,ooo students crashed and left with the funds and students had loans .The banks demanded payments ,the Gov't had to pick up the tab,since many of the students were from other EC countries . What happened to the teachers is any one's guess,scrambling to keep head above water no doubt. This was detailed in El Pais english edition. It could happen here,the shareholders or owners could take the money and run. As for the public sector Universities,unis., since a large portion is paid for by the taxpayers already it does not seem a stretch to imagine a new think is required as to qualified scholastic students getting preference/low tuition and others that stay in for social reasons to pay the full shot as do the foreign {non resident in Canada}students who attend a public supported institution do now, at least that is my understanding. Good luck convincing a reluctant taxpayer/voter group that ages and lessens in empathy with students ,hopefully I am wrong in my analysis of this topic!

http://www.canspiracy.8m.com/index.html Exposing the Continentalist Agenda

In first year university classes there are several hundred students in a single class, and no class discussion except for tutorial once a week. Class was just so boring. In highschool, where there was one teacher per 25-30, and class discussion every class was a superior learning environment. "Discussing a topic" is important to learning, not just "Read a 100 pages test next week!" Quality of education should be measured by the "actions taken by educators", not simply medium-of-exchange(dollars). Curriculum-design is very important, there is a lack of interdisciplinary studies, many related- subjects are taught as if they had no relationship with one another. Political-science/history and anthropology are related, physics affects biology yet this is not taught...and the list goes on.

So Ben how exactly have the Liberals ruined post secondary education? By adding more seats in the classroom. Maybe we should re-freeze tuition, then we can also put a moratorium on all post secondary education expansion. Your post is high on derogatory statements but low on substance and fact. This article seems to take Cindy Oliver’s word as gold which is very suspect due to her association to the Federation of Post-Secondary Educators. Not very balanced. They are currently campaigning together with other unions against the Liberal government right now. So are you reporting facts or are you reporting union propaganda. Oh I forgot the union doesn’t care about their self interests they’re looking out for the public, ya right. There is always a lot of complaining about CanWest in here, maybe you should look at yourself in the mirror.

This article makes me wonder just where all those postsecondary graduates that are of my age (older and slightly younger) managed to finace their education. I do believe it all came from taxpapers who funded the post secondary institutions and who are now reneging on eduation for those younger. This lack of $$'s for education are really shameful for this era of students as the haves now do not wish to have their tax $$'s spent on present education but had no problem when they were getting their education. And disgustingly selfish.

bevinBC: I don't think it's necessarily a lack of taxes (though I could've done without the extra $40/year in favour of more dollars for education & healthcare), but a misappropriation of where the funds are being spent - both by the government and the universities. I was lucky enough to be in my last semester at SFU the first year of the tuition hikes, and the university fully admitted that the extra money would not directly benefit students, and instead would go to upgrade the equipment being used by administrative staff. Somehow I don't think the admin. staff needed their 1st generation iMacs replaced by 2nd gens to run their database programs - but what do I know. There didn't seem to be much of an uproar on campus about it - so perhaps they do need that kind of equipment (while the student labs are furnished with 1st generation or older computers). I think it's high time both students and taxpayers started getting more informed and involved not just how much of our money is being spent, but where.

Yes, Bevin, whenever I hear the Campbells (Gordon or Michael) speak about the funding of post-secondary education, I find myself wondering how much they paid for their University education. It'd be interesting to see how it compares (in ratio) to what students pay now.

With 3 sons headed to University, this year, all that Baby Bonus carefully saved (and invested) for each (many $K per) doesn't amount to a hill-a-beans, now! Thanks, again, to our Government Education "Assistance", coming up way short for even the so-called middle-class kids (future low income tax dodgers)! The Gov't instead spent the wad on Edu-propaganda advertising, to no avail. We all still hate the Gov't, with a passion! Nothing's changed since Crawford got my '71 College paper on a projected Sales campaign for, of all things a new Deodorant, containing "DMZ". Cheers bud! Power to the Press (Tyee)!

What would it take for most of us to be absolutely satisfied that the university experience were being offered as effectively as possible (think maximum internet/archived video, lots of seminars with experienced people, not necessarily PhDs), and as efficently as possible (think the role and payment from foreign students, the role of research in the average instructors worklife and its cost in time and budget, etc.) Also think about the large number of students who treat university as some kind of alcohol/drug fantasy land, and consider both making UBC a dry campus, and adopting a minimum entry age of maybe 20 or 25 for undergraduate admission, and add some much needed maturity to the undergraduate experience (both student and instructor).

I teach a part-time studies class on Saturdays at BCIT where the computer labs are full every Saturday. Post-seconday Institutions do not need to add any seats at all: just run the places 24 hours a day, seven days a week! I guess that you could offer a shift differential to the instructors who taught graveyard, and a tuition discount to students who took classes on graveyard also. BCIT already runs day and evening classes 5.5 days a week. Think of the increase in capacity if it were open 7/24? At BCIT it would mean adding just one more shift and one day per week! Food for thought?

For more information on the challenges to providing education opportunities, check out the Opening Doors for Every Student website at: http://www.opening-doors-bc.ca For more details on the numbers I provided Crawford, check out our association's brief to the provincial Finance Committee at: http://www.cufa.bc.ca/briefs/ProvFin04.pdf

DON'T even get me started re: deregulation of the private training colleges. In particular of language schools... It's going to be a free-for-all...

Clearly, Ms. Chong will be a short-term Minister with no time and no money - except those distant FTE's and their reduced value - so why bother with her. Better to note Ms. Bond's legacy: tuition increases and the gutting of college collective agreements. She would not even travel 2 blocks to attend an annual meeting of faculty in Prince George, her home riding. The apprenticeship debacle was predictable, given the input from business leaders with no intention of empowering British Columbia workers with such things as a Red Seal apprenticeship. The BC Liberals have done a lot of stupid things, lying, padding their rich friends' bank accounts. But, the worst thing they have done is squeeze young British Columbians and those who have to or seek to follow another career path out of public post-secondary education. As for the private institutions. they do it for the money, nothing more. It is a buyer beware world, with the Liberals trying to make the private institutions look good. It isn't working.

If Carole James is intended to freeze tuition once again, it will make Gordon Campbell's re-election that much easier and possibly my first time also. The last tuition freeze just about wiped out any quality to our post secondary education system. The unionised staff and faculty faced masses of layoffs and cutbacks due to the NDP's lack of vision. Students always need a break, but a tuition freeze was too artificial and created a financial vacuum that Campbell was there to fulfill. Moderate increases to keep up with inflation and the quality of education is what is needed. Too often we have seen the ying and yang of NDP/Liberal policies - from one extreme to the other. A signifcant amount student owned Mercs and BMW's are in the parking lots of SFU these days. The Greens would offer a more balanced approach, moderate increases to education and even FREE education to those wh qualify. However, there has to be a corresponding increase to the post secondary budget to accomodate the loss of revenue.

Again the socialists want the golden egg for free. Well there is no free lunch. The basic problem is that labour costs are just to high. I would just that a 20% decrease in College and University staff salaries ought to be invoked. Money saved would then offset the tuition fees and other costs. Taxes are too high as it is. We have to be realistic and tell the unions to bog off!

sdgreen, non-academic UBC salaries are low. The 20% wage rollback that you are suggesting would totally decimate the universities. They have a hard enough time keeping good staff as it is.

Carole James NDP is promoting a stupid election promise. A tuition freeze? I was a student, and the tuition hikes were totally a joke. UBC was cutting First and Second year biology labs, so students were enroute to gett a degree that wasn't worth their cheap tuition, and wasn't worth the thousands of dollars the Government spends. The NDP has to learn better than to pull out unthought out election gimmicks. That being said, I'm glad they got Shirley out of there, the doornail had no long term for plan for students, and really didn't care too much about her portfolio. At least Ida has a CGA, rather than Bonds and her xth year of well, I took a few courses so I know what its like to be a well paid middle aged part time student. What really needs to be done is tie the government and the students contribution, so if a tuition is to go up 5%, the governments per seat compensation goes up by an proportionate amount. The biggest problem with the tuition hikes, is that students didn't know how much they were to be paying until half way throught the year. Oh, well, we're only increasing it by 30% this time around. The truth is, the university is supposed to be the highest source of education. Its costly to get good profs, but it benefits in the long run. University educated individuals earn significantly more and pay higher taxes in the long run. Its an investment that the province should put forward. That being said and this may anger some people on this list, is that the BCGEU unions on campuses (weel expecially those on UBC) should be send into exile, and should be fired enmasse. Not only are they overpaid for positions that students could and would gladly take to help pay for their tuition, but the fact that on numerous occasions they have gone on strike and disrupted students education. (its fine to go on strike, just don't picket the classes) show that this is one area of all the Liberals union bashing where they didn't go nearly far enough. I've graduated now, but it makes me sick when I see classes being picketed and students being held pawns. If they choose not to work for the wages offered thats one thing, but to hold up their silly signs and close campuses, just show they should be banned from all college lands. As a student, when you're scrounging for every last cent to get your degree, and your faced with this kind of crap, cancelling classes and wrecking your yeats, you really wish this province had a mandatory arbitration board and outlawed labour action in public jobs. We're not talking abouot sending people down coal minds, we are talking about this constant whine from people who don't bother going on the job search like the rest of us when we feel stagnate in our current positions.

You've graduated you say? No fear of becoming "stagnate" in a coal "mind" for you , is there? And your solution to angry unionised workers expressing their disgust at this travesty of a government (aptly named The Lieberals)? (They)"..should be send into exile.." Your spinelessly selfish and skewed view of the inherently righteous outrage most unionised labour feels toward Gordo and his gang of criminal thugs stems from the "I've got mine, I'm ok Jack - get yer hand offa my stack" attitude prevalent in many, many misinformed voters. Now that you are a university graduate, you expect to garner a large salary, capitalize on your capabilities, and generally do very well for yourself. I wish you luck. But remember this: the economic impetus that fuels the resource-based industries integral to this province's success comes from many of us without a lambskin; loggers (like me), millworkers, construction workers, oil/gas workers, and many associated support services. If you think a government busily marginalizing and attacking organized labour is a good idea, a corporate takeover of all profitable industry combined with a race to the bottom of real workers' wages a viable strategy, then I'm afraid you should ask for your tuition fees to be refunded - you haven't learned a darned thing in university. (Oh, and the next time around, try an English course; it may help..)

Hey, before you go pinning too many words in my mouth, believe me, I would love to see Campbell go into exile with all the union heads in some barren land where he is the only source of food. His dismantling of profitable industries and his outsourcing of contracts is a slap in the face to a lot of Britsh Columbians, whether they our free enterprise or union. Whether I believe organized labour as it exists it today, with multinational unions and clear partisan connections is something that should be dismantled is another question. Trade unions are one thing, smaller unions often have better leverage because they can negotiate on a basis by basis level, rather than trying to strong arm across the board collective bargaining settlements. I have specific problems with certain unions, and for you to blanket yourself with blind solidarity, does not take away from the value of my own education. I like to believe I can both appreciate certain policies while condemning others. I strongly believe in the resource based nature of this province, and I'm also quite against multinational companies freebasing our province's resources without reinvesting in industries. I think trade unions should be treated with much more value, on condition they treat themselves as professional bodies. If they want to set wage standards across an industry, let them do so, providing they allow flexibility for individuals who want to work longer days to get ahead, and for employers who offer incentives to those who perform well in their jobs. My grievances with public sector unions are something that a lot of British Columbians share, whether you like it or not. In the public sector, and with universities, you're not talking about challenging a multinational company who is looking to increase shareholder dividents, for British Columbians are the shareholders. I respect you as a logger, you weren't the one forcing my classes to be cancelled and yelling at me as I tried entering into a library. You also weren't part of the CUPE union who forced a First Nations program for recovering youth to shut down, which was designed to help them develop chef skills, but conflicted with the unions monopoly on food services. Nor you were part of the union who had raised up labour rates to construct our new buildings on campus, and shut down an attempt to put them to tender. Nor were you part of the union who wouldn't let my student society bring in a private electrician to fix the wiring that kept shorting out whenever anyone used the photocopier, and yet stated they wouldn't be able to fix in for months due to other obligations. Nor were you part of the union that meant we had to pay both a Janitor and a supervisor to clean our athletic facilities...or were you? I guess thats the whole solidarity thing. It its us versus them, you're either with us or with them. You can go rally all you want, rant away all you want, and I don't care. But when you're dismay at the government turns into increasing the cost of running an university, forcing the cancellation of classes, (there were no MLAs attending my university), then you better watch who you're calling spineless. (Oh, and I'm glad I'm debating with such an esteemed language critic such as yourself. Thanks for commenting on the value of my education, I really appreciate it. )

To the query as to how Campbell and cronies got their post-secondary education - I think they deserve a refund if they did pay for it. I was lucky to have already begun my doctoral studies when the tuition hikes - that sent many struggling universities students into the black box and debt - were unrelentingly implemented without warning on a population of people who have relatively little political clout. The "golden egg" referred to above is education - it would be in the interest of society to have a well-educated population as you wouldn't want your doctor to be a numbskull whose parents were rich enough to send him to medschool (we all have come across one of those - admit it). We have much to learn from countries in the EU that provide free post-secondary education of equal or better value to that found in N. America to their young adults - it may be why they are overtaking as the new "super power" of the world. As a PhD researcher - I am given a "free" tuition award for the first 4 years of my PhD project - simply because good graduate researchers are the cheapest source of expertise that brings in millions in revenue for the universities since they are the ones producing all those patentable projects. On top of the millions given to the universties through federal funds - that ensure that good faculty stay aboard and lucrative research continues - the universities venture dangerously close to the private industries that take advantage of the expert slave labour for profit (I speak as someone working within the life science research community in which the line between big pharma and university research has all but disappeared). - I wonder if anyone - other than the laughing university administrators and the gov't coffers being filled - understand how money is generated in the educational corporation and whether the public is still puffing through the thick screen of smoke - still scratching their neo-conned heads at the outrage that those future fat-cats shouldn't pay through their nose to get an education so they could become a productive member of society - or at least bright enough not to vote for campbell and company.

I'm one of the ones who pay, pay, pay the taxes. College and university should be free to those who keep their grade averages at a decent level; I'd suggest a B. Those who go there to party can pay full price. If this means some smart rich kid gets free tuition, well, that's fine, better that than have the non-rich locked out by crippling fees. I propose this not because I'm concerned about the growing clout of EU nations but because we are wasting the fine minds of our younger citizens. Similarly, the apprenticeship programme should be kick-started and expanded. Will this happen? Not soon, and not for long, there are simply too many people swarming the surface of the globe, the gap between have and have-not is widening, and the haves always want more...while paying for less...Sadly it isn't just the Fiberals doing this, all neo-con parties are moving against the lower income groups with increasing spite. Hey, there , TommyMoore, how do you like being part of the Steelworkers now? Strange days, eh?

A tuition freeze is mose probably intended as a respite (and not permanent strategy)..to ease the current suffering to the accelerated increases imposed by the what's-in-a-name Liar's party.

Unfair taxation policies favouring upper strata "earners", offshore ownerships, and related right wing governmental tactics (and thus budget shortfalls) induce these upward tuition spirals.

As a side note, it's utterly pathetic that a rabid Green self-promoter like the seems-to-be-a-candidate Rockerbiff (and whatever else he calls himself on other threads)..uses this forum to flog his candidacy. Get your own website / blog - and stop trying to ride for free.

One turd to kit for using "Liar" in his post.

The NDP also had to make choices when Mike Harcourt was faced with a large annual deficit left behind by the BC Liberals under their former name (BC Socreds). Right wingers will whine about tax cuts and balanced budgets and then complain when the universities were not given more money under the NDP.

Sue yes the Universities weren’t getting enough money from the NDP, but they were also prohibited from growing their revenue in other ways like increasing tuition to offset rising costs. So they can't get money from government nor from students. So what happens? The quality of education decreases and the amount of classroom spaces stays stagnant. But who cares about the quality of education when the most important part is making sure decisions fit within your ideology.

The problem is that Gordo has just not made (post-secondary) education in BC a priority. It doesn't fit within his ideology.

Here's the same ol' tired story -

Tuition fees, for most undergraduate programs in Canada, represent about 20% of the true cost of services provided by the universities. Transfer payments from the feds, provincial taxes and fundraising and other private donations help defray the rest of the costs of post-secondary education. So, with the obvious decline of taxes in BC, decreased government funding to universities is increasing the fiscal pressures on institutions and is driving these dramatic tuition fee increases. And now it seems there's no other option but to continue to deregulate fees, as was done already, driving up tuition by 100%.

Wrong! It's possible for provincial governments to "freeze" or even "lower" University tuition fees. Check this out -

In Newfoundland and Labrador, fees for all public post-secondary students have been frozen since 1999. In addition, fees for undergraduate and graduate university students were reduced by 10% each year in 2001/2002 and 2002/2003, with a further 5% reduction promised for 2003/2004. In Manitoba, fees were reduced by 10% in 2000/2001 and have remained frozen since. Tuition fees in Québec have been frozen (for Québec residents) for close to a decade. In fact, in 2003-04, average undergraduate tuition fees in Quebec were $1,862 a year, the lowest in Canada and more than $2,000 less than the Canadian average of $4,025.

How do they do that? In Quebec, the public sector funds a larger share of university revenues. There are also lower than average expenditures on elementary-secondary education because of the fact that the Quebec system has fewer years of elementary-secondary education prior to the commencement of postsecondary education in the CEGEP system. Also, Quebec charges higher fees to students who were born outside the province.

These examples show that something can be done to harness the rising costs of tuition in BC. What are the unique circumstances in BC that do not allow for this? Are BC universities better than Manitoba ones, or ones from Quebec? Does UBC have special requirements over McGill? Where do the differences lie?

In plans and priorities perhaps, shaped by caring governments. Even though the federal government has ceased cutting and has begun restoring transfer payments, some universities appear to see tuition fees for residents as an easy source of much needed revenue. I would argue that schools in BC fall under that category.

Were there a truly qualified minister and caring premier, with vision, this issue could be resolved and tuitions could be lowered.

Post-secondary tuition is free in Cuba and Ireland...why not BC, eh?

dj, it's unfortunate your UBC education didn't include any labour history studies. If it had perhaps you would not have made a lot of the suggestion you pose in your last post. For one, "flexibility" arguments, in my experience, usually come from managers who haven't got or won't take the time to manage properly. And believe me, small unions don't have greater leverage to negotiate on behalf of their membehip. What they do have is a greater likelihood of being leveraged, because they don't have the financial or political clout to defend against hostile efforts to break them. Now you can reply that unions shouldn't be involved in politics, but that would be like saying the world can get by without water.

Free tuition won't do anyone any good. How will students appreciate the value of their education if they don't earn it? In my own situation, I went to a private university and paid full price. No one helped me pay for it, it was all financed through student loans. I know full well what I was getting into. Now, I work at a job I love that doesn't pay very well, but even when that fat chunk of cash comes out of my bank account every month, I don't regret the investment I made in my own education and my own future. If we give bachelors degrees away for free, no one will appreciate them. Students need to earn their education and have a sense of responsibility for their own education. As for loan remission, the existing program works pretty well. I had most of the BC portion of my student loan forgiven, which basically only required that I successfully completed my program. That was a large amount of money I don't have to pay back and I'm glad the program exists. However, not too surprisingly, you have to really hunt to find out how to apply for the program and go through the process, it's not like the government has a big ad on its website promising to cancel student debts. But the information is there and the program does work, unless it's changed since I went through the process in 2001. Many European countries offer free tuition in exchange for a few years of military service. Perhaps Canada could try this and mitigate the problems with its military as well as provide an alternative for students who want to go to university but might not be able to afford the costs.

It's by design, why on earth would the ruling elite want a more educated populace. As mentioned before Ireland , England and others have free tuition. England is a tiny county with almost twice our population and is out performing us on every level. Making education better is not about loading our students with debt its about proper governance and proper funding and setting priorities, lets find some money locally. This gov is spending 600 mil to widen a hwy to Whistler, 110 mil to get some extra gold medals at an event 6 yrs from now. Governments will not do the right thing unless we apply pressure. Rising tuition will not become an issue unless we make it one, what is the issue this week, oh yea Gay Marriage, unbelievable what century are we living in. Don't wine unless your willing to do something, anything, use the media, join a political party that resembles your vision(affect change in the party) Lobby the university itself and join student protests. Write letters, and raise hell. I can give you many examples of positive social change threw resistance . Take the power that belongs to you.

Free tuition in England? Somebody's a bit out of date on this as New Labour has changed the rules, and there is not perfect content among the proles on the Jolly Old Island with their education system either. Free in Cuba? Everything's free in Cuba, including re-education for the malcontents.

And why, for example, should we subsidize MBA degrees when the bright young whips who gain them are immediately offered six-figure jobs in business? They can afford to repay their loans and today they are required to do so.

My children paid their own way through higher education and have no regrets or complaints. No silver spoons, just hard work. What's stopping you?

Why not elect Gordo again, give him a majority mandate to sell off, privatize all universities and community colleges...and let the corporations that buy them set the market price, and get rid of those fat-assed tenured professors and labor-union hacks. There is "the" solution, and while he's at it why not sell off all the elementary and secondary schools too. Why should tax-payers be footing the bill? Privatized schools and then the state issues a 'voucher' and the student can choose which school/college/university to redeem it? The bottom line would be fantastic on this..I'm sure Gordo is dreaming it up already. Piss on the socialist solution, sell it all to the corporations. Same as hospitals, sell them all - the private sector can do it better, more efficiently, no public sector union hacks. While we're at it...it is a great idea to sell off the highway systems, not just the Coq, but the Island Highway, the "rebuilt" Sea to Sky highway, etc.etc,...the works! Really, there is no end to this neo-liberal crap...so lets go all the way in May 2005, elect Gordo again...and this "scenario" may happen, sooner than you think --and then we won't need a legislature and democracy will be fini...so lets watch what happens.

martin can afford to give a 4.6 B federal tax break to the Corporations and Elite last January, gordo can afford to give them a nice big 2 B Provincial tax break and we can't afford to fund our schools universities colleges or healthcare? Surprised? Stuart is right we do have to let our mla's and mp's know this is not exceptable! I think the under funding of post secondary may have started with mulroney then when martin became finance minister he cut funding even further! Since we haven’t been funding our apprenticeship programs a lot of young people have missed out on the opportunity to get a decent paying job! Now klein has made a deal with the feds to bring in foreign workers to work for the non-union construction companies working on the tar sands projects, claiming we don't have enough trades! We probably have enough trades in this country for now but they don't want to work for low wages with no benefits! The real skills shortage is going to hit when the baby boomers really start retiring in the next 5 years, some trades may lose up to 60% of their work force! The arena in Victoria is another one, there were enough locals out of work with the skills to do the job right the first time on budget and on schedule but the feds gave work permits to foreign workers supplying cheap labour at the cost of local jobs, from what I have read the union contractors were not given the opportunity to bid! Another sweetheart 3P arrangement! Maybe we should start giving temporary work permits to people from third world countries to do the work of professionals and politicians then we could really save money, how about cheap ceo’s, lol!

i THINK GORDON IS JUST WONDERFULL! WAIT! WHAT'S THAT BRICK THROUGH MY WINDOW, HAVE THESE PEASANTS NO GRATITUDE, DON'T THEY KNOW WE'RE DESTROYING BC FOR THEIR BENEFIT? DDDDDUUUUHHHH!!!!

I am one of the 1/5 of the instructors who is under the age of 40 and I will be for some time. My major concern is actually the students. They don't care anymore. When I was a student not too long ago, I spent some time competing with students from overseas and to a man, they kill the North American students (almost bar none). This is not, however, due to poor education. It is due to the state of mind of our students. If students felt that education was important from a younger age, then perhaps they would be more motivated to learn at a higher level. Make no mistake about it; not every country has computers as good as the average BC university computer and yet they still pump out good students. Why is this? Our problem is more than a money problem, this is an attitude problem (although I don't deny a funding problem). It will linger until we change the mentality of younger students. Changing attitudes is a job not only for high school educators, but also for college and university instructors. How many of you have gone to a high school and talked to the students about university and YOUR program (ie, math, physics, english etc.)? I challange you all to do that once in the upcoming year. It doesn't need to be for a long time, just let them know why they should be at your school and in your program. Give them options. It can't hurt anything and perhaps it will put some of the pressure back on the students themselves. I close by saying that if you expect more from the students, you might be surprised at the result. They are better than we generally give them credit for.

If you wish to create a psuedo-aristocracy, as it seems the provinincial liberals do, you must deny or atleast restrict the proletariat class access to education. They must be mired in ignorance if they are to be controlled and exploited. This is essential. Class mobility must be eradicated and the first step to accomplishing this is to create a two tiered education system - the rest will follow. Its hard to believe that gordon cambell, buffoon that he is, is capable of such intricate treachery.(Karl Rove on retainer perhaps?) What are the other essential elements of such a state? - a secret police apparatus to brutally suppress inevitable uprisings including the mechanisms of almost constant surveillance of the populace. - physical separation of the classes thru articial firewalls such as gated communities and elaborate urban security infastructure. - a lack of economic opportunity for the proletariat to socially immobilize them. i.e. low paying jobs with little or no labor standards - a morally bankrupt and sociopathic ruling class who control the very structure of society thru false government and comlete control of the factors of production. - lots of other stuff im not smart enough to think of. Then again maybe im wrong about the liberals and all of the horrible things they've done are for our own good in some weird way that i just dont understand yet. You tell me.

Post-secondary education is already two-tiered: useful and useless. The former track produces graduates who assume well-compensated jobs. The latter produces baristas.

MORE ON-LINE EDUCATION. NOW.

How about a "P3P" mode on post-sec education. That way students are happy, teachers are happy, and the shareholders will be happy too.

A few points: 1/ The govt needs to increase $ for education. It is one of the best investments we,as a society, can make. 2/Tuition freezes are unrealistic but we need to help students. A scholarship if students maintain a B average (they do this in Georgia) would be a start. Reduced tuition to kids who major in certain areas and agree to certain public service after graduation. 3/ Labour reforms: Public employee unions seem to think the govt exists to provide their members w/jobs and they almost never admit even one employee is unnecessary. Private unions are different as they help provide a barrier against the vagaries of an unregulated marketplace when the govt abdicates or tries to abidicate this role (Bush, Harris,Campbell) I realize when a job pays the bills you don't care that your job is unnecessary; it pays the bills and that's that. I think the govt needs to look at helping people who lose their job due to efficiencies etc but we cannot allow bullhorns at CUPE rallies to stop us from trying to make universities run mor e efficiently so that as much of the $ as possible reaches classrooms, labs and libraries and, ultimately, students.

Mmmm, barristas, and movie reviewers for the georgia straight, a publication I otherwise admire...a rather narrow view of the role of the arts at both UBC, and in society, Mr Yamuchi...but then the superficial, uneducated viewpoint is what you seem to excell at, never mind, go watch another Harry Potter movie....

Oh my, a gauntlet! How quaint! Well, let's rebut. You infer that you speak from an educated viewpoint. What hubris! Your spelling and grammar are atrocious. You've clearly not done the work necessarily to present your opinions to intelligent audiences. Not only do you mis-spell easy words like "Excel" and "Yamauchi," the person you touchingly hope to impugn. The run-on sentences...the lazy use of ellipses... Finally, a jest at the fact that I am lucky enough to review films. It's a lovely hobby. What's yours? Oh...right. It's assaulting your intellectual betters. Mm, good luck with that.

I could write you into the ground, you spoiled, elitist little yuppie nothing...how dan mcCleod can hire a DUD like you Ronnie, with your gutless little closet-reactionary close minded opinions -you're "NOT SURE," if you will support the NDP yet after what campbell's done to YOUR betters?? Do you know what a quisling is Ronnie?...and guess what, Ronnie, YOU'RE NEXT IF CAMPBELL GETS REELECTED...I'll go "take my meds" now, you stupid, insensitive little pup...Not all of us use spell check Ronnie...you're a disgrace!

My goodness. Poor sentence structure, ad hominem attacks, random capitalization; why, you must be the former Lewis Swift. "Write me into the ground"? How charming! You cannot even maintain your pseudonym on a free forum! Your remarks are, of course, baseless. I've never failed to support the NDP with my vote, nor have I encouraged others to vote elsewhere. Rather, I have engaged in friendly, constructive criticism. You see, ",,,,,,", I would prefer that the NDP win, rather than lose, as is their habit. To mistake analysis for treason is a symptom of mindless zealotry. And here you are. Incidentally, if you wish to use a historical metaphor to slur my character, you could do much better than Quisling (a capitalization error -- how astonishing), who abetted the invading Germans. In the instant matter, it is the NDP who are the putative usurpers. So try to think of a more apt insult, wouldja? Take your time and come up with a real goodie this time; I'm sure it will be funny, and it's not like you have anything more interesting to do with your life.

So you must be Cheech to Ida's chong. And the majority of your comments Mr. Y have about as much effort in them as you put into eating a bag of Cheetos when you're watching a Harry Potter movie. If your writing is the product of the liberal arts education that you so inspiringly suggest produces only barristas, then I suggest you ask for a refund...you have been cheated badly. I have done a lot of creative writing here on the Tyee, and elsewhere. I would suggest, with all due respect of course, that the most creative thing YOU have written is your income tax return...however, I will concede that in your mastery of the trite, unexamined cliche, you are indeed unsurpassed...and by the way, ronnie, william s. burroughs among others used ellision, and was praised for doing so, just not by the likes of you....Lewis Swift no longer posts as lewis swift on the Tyee because he is mortally tired of timid editors afraid to criticise the BC judiciary...so long, Ronnie...and calm down, take your meds.

TESTING, TESTING...???!!!

TESTING.

WELL, WHADDAYA KNOW -COULD THIS BE THE RETURN OF THE SON OF LOUIE THE SWIFT....STAY TUNED.................

And bye the bye Ronnie, my li'l oxford dictionary, tells me as I thought it would, that quisling can as well be uncapitalized, as in my usage...sorry to take that away, ronnie, I KNOW winning is something that probably hardly ever happens to you....nighty-night.

What analysis, Ron? As you see it I mean...I confess I never noticed any actual analysis, although, there WAS the odd snippy remark followed by a hasty retreat...oh well. in the words of Kurt Kobain: "nevermind..."

Six responses, eh? Oh well, in a flame war, the quantity over quality philosophy is clearly your best bet. "," if I may use your first name, congratulations for discerning the fact that most of my comments here are quickly tossed off. When I have hours to spend writing, it's because I'm getting paid. But when it comes to the NDP, I have been in "analysis" mode, as opposed to "blithe quip" mode. Hence, previous and readily searchable remarks about the party's curious and depressing failure to address its perceived flaws (e.g. financial incompetence, hostility to business, thrall to the unions, bland leadership). Now, let's review this current tempest in a teapot. I made a comment about useful vs. useless education, using employment opportunities as a criterion. It's not an assault in liberal arts. It is a suggestion that people consider their paid education to be an investment in future income. If you're planning to teach liberal arts, then liberal arts is a fine programme. Geddit? Instead of seeking to have me clarify or defend the statement, you opted for the personal attack. This is sadly characteristic of your posting style. Your instincts are leftward, as our mine. My primary problem with you is not our shared NDP support, but your haste to depart from a civil tone. You're also creating a secondary annoyance of alluding to a publication history while hiding behind an alias. Me too: I'm actually Chomsky! Now, you do have your place. Every movement needs shock troops -- a basij of ideologues. But leave the thinking to the qualified ones, please. Because when you flail around impotently, unable to discern friend from foe, it really doesn't do our side any good. It's certainly vigorous, but more creepy and worrisome than impressive.

Then mind your GOD DAMNED MANNERS! And I'll mind mine...I never attack, unless I'm dealing with rightwing spew or I'm attacked first, and I didn't appreciate your comment about "taking my meds." Some of us, like disabled persons such as myself have suffered greatly under this "government," just as middle class people like yourself will suffer, if they're reelected, think $5000 auto insurance, like new brunswick under the marvels of the marketplace. We first met on the harper/blockquebecois thread, where i suddenly found myself under heavy attack and censorship for suggesting that at least a block/liberal minority government would protect social programs, and I was surrounded by thirdway apologist sellouts like jay currie. Canwest stacks their sound-off threads. I expect more from the Tyee...whether posting as Ben Quick, Moodie Susanah, or whatever...

I'm very sorry you're mentally ill.

Oh, the ol' hasty retreat, eh, Ron, I'M sorry that you find the subject of mental illness a continual pathetic excuse for your lame rebuttals..find the subject of metal illness hilarious, do you?...have another bag of doritos, and watch Hary Potter and The Chamber of Secrets for the 23rd time...lame, Ronnie lame...got any rapier wit abour parapalegics?...and no Ronnie, I'm not mentally ill...I'm just not a coward, and that's rare these days, isn't it??

I know that mental illness isn't funny. Clearly, I misread your playing of the "don't pick on me, I really AM on meds" card. It is puzzling. Then again, I am dealing with a person who thinks himself brave for posting anonymously on the Internet!

I see, you know it's not funny, that it's both moronic and insensitive to the nth degree, but it continues to be your favorite attack. Are you SURE you wouldn't be more comfortable in the BC liberal party, Ron? And what makes you think disabled people in BC can afford to post their own names, and be safe from government attacks. Your ignorance and smug stupidity are breath taking. Why not quit the straight and write puff pieces for the rightwing -you want the ndp to be just like them anyway. P.S. You have an additional problem, you confuse witticisms with twitticisms...

You'd love to have my problems, loser.

I don't think you so, you quisling elitist little snob...you write dreadfully, and your hit and run comments read as the conceited inept ramblings of the total poseur...who confuses once again, witticisms with twitticisms, and the smug ignorant retort, as adequate rebuttal, "problems" most people leave behind in adolescence...

"I don't think you so." Really? You don't think me so? What think you me no so? Me no think you think that much. And, in all honesty, ",,,,," I'm getting bored of it. As much as I appreciate the effort that you, my loyal fan, takes to -- what was it? "write me into the ground?" -- it's not very interesting when you just repeat yourself (e.g. quisling, wit/twit, Doritos, "Hary Potter"). You write the same bloody thing over and over again. Only your alias changes. Admittedly, it is hysterical when one of your imaginary friends pipes up to support another. But come up with some fresh lines. Or, y'know, get a job.

Yaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnn, RRRRoooooooonnnnn.........you wouldn't know a fresh line if it bit you in the ass, just like your mindless, simpering, utterly baseless conceit will one day...you're a DUD, ronneee...