Is nothing sacred? I can't bear the thought of fat cats swanning about in Luxury Class on B.C. Ferries while the rest of us have (my favourite grease) The Breakfast Special.

Thanks to Tom Sandborn for sounding the Man Overboard sirens on this awful development. I hate having to stand by and watch something so good, like BC Ferries, abused and mishandled until it goes bad.

What can we do to stop this two-tier system?

Tyee: could you please remove Item #1 ... which didn't go through ... so I rewrote my posting ... then TWO of them popped up ... which must annoy other readers. Sorry.

This is a clear indication as to where British Columbia is headed, like in the US the gap between classes has widened. After all the BC Liberals have put so much faith in US corporations and leaders that they have forgotten what it is to be a British Columbian and Canadian. Yes we have downtown east side vs British Properties, but we all pay the same taxes, therefore keep class distinction out of BC corporations that are there to serve ALL British Columbians. The same story applies to the new train that will be running up to Whistler, it will NOT be available to use for British Columbians, but for cruise ship patrons only! What a crock of BS! Those BC commercials tell it all, this "is" the best place on earth! Yes! if you are just visiting and have american dollars in your pocket! Vote anything but Liberal!

So I guess this is where the money from the income tax cut will be going into. Horrible use of money. Horrible.

To post to the site, select "submit comment". The site will appear to refresh, but your post will not resolve (as in "appear" - to you) at that first "refresh of your monitor" - even though it will appear to others coming to the site site ( after you'd selected submit comment).

To view what you posted (as in to check it) - and to see it on the "refreshed" page - on your monitor consider this process (it works perfectly).. Hit "submit comment" when you want to send your post.. Then, immediately after it refreshes the page on your monitor, hit the F5 key, which is the "refresh display key" (on Windows) - and then your post will materialize on your personal monitor on that second refresh.

Do not re-submit the same information. It's there. The above technique works every time.

To Sask; BC Ferries raises it's own capital. Tax payers don't pay for it anymore. It's that loss of control of our treasury that irks so many on the left.I have enjoyed spreading around my extra after tax dollars. This stimulates our economy.

This is an ugly development alright. It's been nice for me the last few years to travel from Tsawassen to Swartz Bay as a walk-on passenger for only about $9.75. Maybe that's such a good deal, too many humble folks like me have been using the ferries, pissing off some of the well-heeled fellow travellers who had to rub shoulders with us. But the union's attitude is inexplicable, because most members of the public will not support this.

They are offering an area where you can pay more if you want for some more comfort. What’s bad about that? It's called responding to consumer wants, and it's an integral part of business. The vast majority of the customers are going to get the same service so what does it matter too you? It seems that it all comes down to jealousy. The left is jealous at anybody who can get something that they can’t so they will do everything in their power to stop everybody from enjoying any luxuries. You should be happy the wealthy are going to be paying more for essentially the same service. In the end the more money that the ferry systems makes, the more can be turned back into improved services.

Love this kind of reporting. Sets the Tyee apart.

Waydago, Tom

Jim - In theory I agree with your comments, but in practice it doesn't always pan out that way. Take the reservation system for example. In theory it works, but the reality is that on a Sunday afternoon you have to have a reservation or you will have to wait 4-5 sailings. Before you might have waited 2 or, a maximum of 3. The reservation system has made it so that you have to pay more if you want to travel on the weekend. The luxury class refit could possibly work the same way. The luxury class will undoubtedly have fewer people in it, leaving less room for those people in the non-luxury class. Will we soon see less people per sailing, but those people paying more for the service? Will we be able to buy our way to the front of the lunch line? Will we be able to pay to reserve a table in the cafe at the back? Sounds silly, but it's no more ludicrous than what the reservation and luxury class system proposes.

Billy: 4-5 sailings on a Sunday? Which ferry route are you talking about? Surely not one of the main Vancouver-Vancouver Island routes! For the past three years, I've been travelling back and forth between Horseshoe Bay and Departure Bay on a regular basis (1-2 times a month), always on weekends, and I rarely bother with reservations except on long weekends or over Christmas. In all that time, I've had perhaps half a dozen one-sailing waits.

The reservation system has been wonderful for those times when I've really needed to make sure I got to my destination on time (i.e. job interview). A surprisingly small amount of deck space is available for reservations, and the majority is still available as first-come, first-served. The real problem with increased waits is simply the larger amount of traffic between the Island and the Mainland, and that has come with economic and population growth.

One more point, and I'm done. Many people don't realize this, but reservations have been a reality on BC Ferries for many years prior to the current system. It was previously called "assured loading", and users would buy a 10-pack of pre-paid tickets at a premium. On arrival at the terminal (I believe you had to be there 30 minutes before the sailing you wanted), you simply handed over one of these tickets. I much prefer the current pay as you go system, with its fixed reservable deck space and instant updates through the BC Ferries website.

BC Ferries has its problems, but those primarily stem from a lack of capacity. I won't get into the whole ship-building location debate, but I'm glad to see that at least we will be getting some more ferries.

I, too, dislike the concept of separate class service. Those who suggest that it's fair for the wealthy among us to pay more for their luxuries fail to question the fairness of our wealth distribution, accepting extremes of wealth and poverty as the natural course of nature. In fact, the cards are stacked against those who are born poor, black, aboriginal or female (Yes, I know there will be hue and cry about that statement; check the facts - visible minorities & women still get far less of the wealth than white males); those who are "downsized" and unable to find well-paid employment; those who have barriers to employment such as mental or physical disorders; those who are undereducated. The "game" favours those who are born into wealth, those who head corporations (frequently as a result of being born into wealth), and those who have amassed fortunes from exploitation of the "means of production": i.e., other people's labour. So, to return to the discussion of the BC Ferries Luxury accommodation, I believe that any BC Liberal MLAs who travel by ferry will be the first to belly up to the free coffee, pastries, newspapers, and magazines so they can facing the "riff-raff" in steerage - the electorate: you and me.

Above should have said: "so they can AVOID facing the 'riff-raff' in steerage - the electorate: you and me.

OK this is an old one but the symbolism still gets me steaming every time I travel to the Island. space

I am disappointed and perplexed BC Ferries has changed their Dogwood Logo. The use of the Dogwood flower from 1958 goes back almost as far of the adoption of the flower as British Columbia’s own in 1956. The fact that our flower is from a tree further supports the culture of our Province. The distribution of this plant in BC is similar to the majority of BC Ferries routes; along the coasts of Vancouver Island, Gulf Islands and the Mainland. Furthermore, continued use of the Dogwood Logo supports awareness of native plants and associated ecosystems. Even from a strict marketing perspective ‘nature’ is hot now. I mentioned I was perplexed as well. What did this new logo mean? It appears to be waves or smoke. Ferries don’t make waves, they make wakes. Was this supposed to symbolize the effects of diced sea life, eroded shores and damaged docks left in the wake of a ferry? Or does it represent the smoke and carcinogens billowing from the diesel engines? Calling it simply the Environmental Degradation Logo should cover both of these interpretations. I guess that is what a good logo accomplishes: Suggests several of the company’s activities and is open to more than one interpretation.

"I like luxuries" kind of replies demonstrate the opaque, status riddled stench of glib, right wing apologists. Let's start at the beginning. We dont own the ferry anymore. Guess why. Jim would probably blame "the left" for starters.. "Luxuries" on who back? (even if you squint that question wont go away). Jim's sounds like he's found a way (LOL). "The wealthy" do not pay their share in taxes (unlike workers) - period - coupled with "earnings" gouging of non-working "shareholders", which inflates prices of products and services by default to all. It's, I'm alright jack, I'm "entitled" to luxury...I (joke coming) "earned it" - and F-Y. Enough of little red herrings. Let's not confuse reservations for people who may need to get on a particualr Ferry, and opulence in upper class.

This Ferry sham in another outcome of the "tax cut", as in "give away the store" and then say "Privatise or die !! The cupboard is empty !! "- Let's cut public services and claw it back from the rest of the public assets (like the crowns). Let the downward spiral begin!! (Fraser 'tinkers).

I think I've seen this movie. It started with a "T", I think. All I remember is the line: "I'm the king of the world!" Note to BC Ferries marketing execs: include access to prow on luxury decks. And lots of lifeboats.

My fondest wish is that ordinary British Columbians will visit this website and read the nonsensical rantings of the left-wingers who dwell here. I would never have to worry about an NDP government being elected again. Instead, most will listen to and some believe Carol James trying to be "balanced". But the true feelings of New Democrats are laid bare in these threads. Businesspeople do not travel on BC Ferries at all if they can avoid it. They fly harbour to harbour and save 4 hours each way. Fancier surroundings will mainly appeal to tourists (You know, those people who are guests in our province). They are a clientel that BC Ferries is actually trying to cater to for once in their history. I'm glad they are. And there already is a "first class" section on the Super Ferries. Its called the Pacific Buffet. Many people choose to eat there and pay the extra because it means a quieter, more relaxed crossing. So I am not the least bit bothered by BC Ferries putting a lounge on board as well. Someone made the point above that getting some passengers to pay more for the same crossing helps BC Ferries keep the cost down for everyone. That's especially important given that BC Ferries is in the midst of either replacing or upgrading almost its entire damn fleet because of years of neglect from when politicians in Victoria ran it.

First Class Ferries In an interesting twist of events I took a fast ferry from Buenos Aires to Montevideo this past December in the very same week that Bob Williams did! The fast ferry was incredibly expensive and more so if you are a tourist. There is a two-tiered system, where nationals pay less but the moment you show a foreign passport as ID you pay more. Lots of passenger room was sacrificed on the ship because there was a huge duty free shop. Because it was a 45 knot ship it was impossible to go to the deck and we were confined to a badly air-conditioned room much like in a huge Airbus. There were two levels. The upper levels had the first class section which I did not bother to explore as there was a “guard” at the bottom to stop the curious. I would concur that most don’t want the class system being imposed on our BC Ferries. Still some forget that private cabins are still available for those who ask and want some sort of “dirty weekend” trip to Victoria. The class system had a curious twist in Communist Yugoslavia. In my trip to Belgrade from Toronto on Yugoslavia Airlines we were sipping champagne in the all-class cabin when the plane took off and we were still sipping the stuff when the plane had landed and was wheeling towards the Belgrade terminal. That’s the best first class I have ever experienced.

“The wealthy" do not pay their share in taxes (unlike workers),” explain this to me please. This is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard. When you make a statement like that you lose 100% credibility. High priced union labor inflates prices more than any shareholder.(compare N. American goods to Asian goods) Why is increased services on a ferry bad? Without getting into some ideological driven rant about how labors are abused. If you don’t like the service don’t pay for it. Why is a company that is trying to better service their clientele, me and you, evil? Maybe we should strip the ferries down to the core, remove all food and seats so we can all be equal. That way it won’t be unfair to the people who get the bad seats, or to the people who get the cold fries. That’s a good idea lets offer no services at all. If everybody loses does that equal a win in your books?

'Comma' is correct the lounge is for the MLA's and political assistants to avoid the public who are only too willing to bend the ears of the elected on the trip. Nothing like making an MLA squirm where they can't run and hide. If the lounge was available for everyone it would be advertised front and center. 'Hiding' it and the cost smacks of political string pulling and payoff for 'favours' rendered.

Why hasn't anyone mentioned my main pet peeve about the ferries - the lack of drink? I mean, come on! I don't drive, so why can't I get a nice civilized G+T en passant? Ferries between the UK and Europe pratically run on a river of lager! (Okay, maybe not the best example...)

Another opinion,let two or more teirs existbut why should i pay for them inever use the ferries but my taxes pay to subsidize the system,quite possiblily i think. Make the ferry riders pay for what they get, Set the price high and drop it til the market fills the capacity. Otherwise it should be free for all paid for by general revenue htis mixed economy bugs me.

Class ...finally ..the Fiberals and the privatized Ferry Corporation....have done the analysis, albiet, financial, and voila there is an elitist class...who living in the lap of luxury, believe they are entitled to extra 'benefits' especially if they pay for them...of course, more space for that minority elitist 'class', implies less space for the majority...doesn't this really reflect BC's class division anyway...and they are so up front about it. I'm against it...but I think we ought to speaking more about 'class analysis" in BC politics, not less.

This ferry "class" politic, is an extention of privatisation ideology, of tiers. Does two tier ring any bell? Multiple applications - same ideogogues. Cut the union / left blame crap. Shareholders do not produce, yet "profit". They create a secondary need for margins. Who pays for that? Simple math. Whom is "downsizing" serving. Come on now, you can figure that out. You'll will probably chirp "the customer". That's good if the people own the enterprise, and the money stays here. Only cooperativism - not heirarchical ownership can achieve that.

Offshore shareholders and their companies generally pay reduced taxes, and take their margins out of the local economies. Similarly about outsourcing ouside of the country - because of ideology - not price Whom does that penalise?

Some ideogogues (like yourself) might actually want to believe the BC Ferry CEO. As a civil exercise, don't float the word credibility around until you actually check with what that means.

Further, "Jim", If I'm not mistaken, you post similar right wing troll gas on every single thread. The ferry corporation was sold without debate nor consent - no mandate. Do you know what a mandate is? A government sale of as public assest, without a mandate lacks credibilty on all fronts. BC Ferries is one example of several. Not enough room on the thread to educate minds that work like yours.

That's it Jim! Tell us who is credible and who isn't credible. While your at it maybe dumb down the issues so my 2 year old can make sense of it all, pucker up, and accept her place in this world. AMEN

B.C. Ferries is a public-entity and as such it is not appropriate for it to distinguish between members of the public in this way. This is essentially providing differential subsidies to citizens for the EXACT SAME SERVICE ie: if you pay $10 your trip is subsidized $50 by government, but if you pay $25 (first-class ticket)your trip is subsidized $100 by government. "Subsidy" refers to the fact that an individual is allowed to use certain sections of the ferry that taxes paid for while not being allowed to use others that taxes paid for.

I'm not clear on why anyone would ask why a union would remain silent on this. Surely there is construction labour to be paid and dues to be collected. The world is not wanting for examples of unions benefitting from bad public policy that results in an immediate benefit to members. Personally, I'm for simply improving the ferries for everyone. But, really its a bit silly to get wound up over an extra lounge or two with free coffee, pastries and internet access. Good post from JRG re. the logo. The Dogwood was perfect and the new look lacks vision, imagination and warmth.

Educate me on communism please Kit. Personally, I prefer free and open societies, but you are obviously in favor of government controlled monopolies. North Korea sure is a great country isn't it. If the consumer is paying for the extra service what is the problem? Jealousy? Lets put the ferries back in the governments hands so we can run BC Ferries back into the ground. How many ships do they need to replace? Oh ya the whole fleet. Without the investment of shareholders there would be no economies and we would have a communist state. I forgot that’s your goal. With thinking like yours we would still be using horses to plow our fields. Do you enjoy the computer you’re using? Chalk that one up to evil capitalism. Chicken Slinger your problem is obvious, your kid is 2 and you have already given up hope based on ideology. Now I see why you guys have your attitudes, you gave up on life. You have already destroyed your kids’ dreams by telling them that they can’t succeed. You don't have the motivation and desire to succeed so you try and bring everyone down to your level. I would rather have the vast majority succeed under capitalism than no one succeeding under communism.

BC Ferry rates are already class structured. In addition to those that can afford the buffet we have walk-ons, Greyhound passengers, commercial vehicles, personal vehicles and personal vehicles with reservations (which has been in existence for years). Once on board all “classes” already have the option of renting a stateroom.

However, fare increases for the wealthy will never be in direct proportion to the capital outlay necessary to add luxury business lounges few will use. One more example of the not-so-well-off subsidizing the costs of pampering the well heeled.

BC Ferry logos after refit: Welcome to BC where we Privatize. Socializing the costs and privatizing the profits works for us. We're keeping Socialism afloat, for the rich.

It is rude note to truly read (nor answer) anything, but troll and re-cycle unresearched ideology. The cooperativism (easy Jim, not communism) that I refer to is evident in Argentina and elsewhere. I sense you think of cooperation as "Stalin" or "Mao" or some such. Here's a thought for you...freedom without responsibility is license. And I dont mean a "Libertarian's" responsibility to just one's navel and ass. For but one example od cooperativism, consider to view Klein / Lewis's film "the take" (dont worry, you catch anything bolshevick), and see a Canadian first hand view of conditions before and after. See what private shareholding looks /looked like, how it lorded over people - it social practises and outcomes, and what worker run coops create. No "I love the state" (nor the corporation) anthems, and no paranoia. btw, I wouldn't be taking cheap shots at two year olds. Makes one look like a fool.

I am tired of the NDP and supporters walking the walk and talking the talk of the so called less fortunate, and this story is a perfect example of why. My family is borderline less fortunate, and I say bordeline because I know there are people and families less fortunate than ours. But here is the real beef about BC Ferries from people like me. Who cares if BC Ferries want to add a big wig class who really cares. The two tier crap is political mumbo jumbo. If some rich folk think sitting in a leather seat and watching the stocks on a big screen is more important that standing on the decks and looking at the beauty of gods country than that is a price rich people pay. What enrages me is with the reserved loading crap. Yeah, you have to phone in a half hour in advance and book your spot with your credit card and you cell phone and bango you can waltz onto the ferry. Not everyone in life has a credit card and without a credit card there is no special statius loading for you. You get to sit in line. Maybe I should write a story to the Tyee about what it is like to sit in blistering heat on a long weekend Friday with your family going nuts while you wait in line only to watch all those credit card people drive up and drive on the ferry while you sit there roasting. Why can't you buy the special loading pass at the gate, fine if you have to wait a half hour, but that would still beat sitting there for hours just because you dont have a piece of plastic to phone in with your fancy cell phone. I sit on those ferries and listen to those winers on the ferries decks as well. I would love to make what they make and sit there with all kinds of benfits and whine and complain. I bet they get to ride the ferry for free even. I am tired and pissed off at the NDP for pretending to care about people like me and they do nothing but help people in ferry Unions and hospitals that make way more than I ever will. The crap has to come to an end sooner or later. People like me are tired of it.

I don't like it myself. I hear alot of people complain about the cost of BC ferries to the tax payer but nobody seems to mention all the other ferries BC has in inland waters that are DEPT of HWYs. Needles Ferry ROUTE: Across the Lower Arrow Lake, about 59 kilometres south of Nakusp on Highway 6, between Fauquier and Needles. DAILY SCHEDULE: Every half hour from Fauquier 5:00 am - 10:00 pm. Every half hour from Needles 5:15 am - 9:45 pm. on demand 10:00 pm - 5:00 am. CROSSING TIME: 5 minutes Upper Arrow Lakes (Galena Bay - Shelter Bay) Ferry ROUTE: Across Upper Arrow Lake, 49 kilometres south of Revelstoke on Highway 23, between Shelter Bay and Galena Bay. DAILY SCHEDULE: WINTER From Shelter Bay, 6:00 am - 11:00 pm. From Galena Bay, 6:30 am - 11:30 pm. Dangerous cargo sailings, Tues and Thurs, from Shelter Bay at 9:00 am and 2:00 pm and from Galena Bay at 9:30 am and 2:30 pm. SUMMER: as above plus the smaller vessel, "M.V. Shelter Bay Ferry" will provide additional service May 21st and 24th, 2004, June 24th until September 7th, 2004, and Friday, October 8th and Monday, October 11th, 2004 (Thanksgiving Weekend) -- with the hours of operation from 10:00 am until approximately 7:00 pm. Follow this link for a detailed schedule CROSSING TIME: 20 minutes DANGEROUS CARGO SCHEDULE: On Tuesdays and Thursdays the following trips will be reserved for fuel and Dangerous Cargo: Schedule Tuesdays and Thursdays 9:00 leaving Shelter Bay 9:30 leaving Galena Bay 2:00 leaving Shelter Bay 2:30 leaving Galena Bay Canadian Coast Guard Regulations require that not more than 12 passengers be carried on sailing with Dangerous Goods which are explosives. Not more than 25 passengers to be carried with Dangerous Goods other than explosives. When the reserved day coincides with a statutory holiday the Dangerous Cargo trip will be cancelled. CONTACT INFORMATION: General Enquiries: 250-837-6676 Fax: 250-837-6645 http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/bchighways/inlandferrysch edule/ferryschedule.htm#needles that link has all the routes One of those runs is the longest free ferry ride in North America our tax $$ go to subsidise that too ya know. so are the first class passengers get better life jakets too? or maybe a seat on a life boat and the rest of us must float or swim. This government gave away our fastcats for far less than they were worth this government was so against the fastcats and the NDP stupid spending habbits with them, now this same government wants to spent millions more on TVs seats and carpets and fancy new countertops.Sound familiar? We don't need first class seating and thier already is a board room on the Super Ferries for biz people and their are state rooms available. One person wrote about biz people and weathy fly, This is true and I would too if I could afford too on the other hand I would drive on the ferry more if I could afford it.

Sorry about the long post but it gives alot of info about the inland ferries that seems to be little known to most of us on the coast. This link here has a photo of one of the ships they use and it is a very nice looking ferry check it out:) http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/mot_org/marine/marinehome.ht m

The Ministry's 16 fresh water ferry routes are an integral link in British Columbia's transportation network. The freshwater fleet consists of five certified vessels, six reaction ferries, four aerial tramways (for winter use) and five cable ferries as well as tugboats and barges. The fleet carries more than 3.2 million passengers and 1.7 million vehicles annually.

Interesting to see all the *newbies* carping hissing and b*ching about private lounges. BC Ferries has had private staterooms for rent aboard it's boats for decades now. Have a look on the top deck of the Queen of Nanaimo next you're on the Donkey Express to the Gulf Islands. OK so it's not exactly The Wedgewood but hey if you want someplace to sit bring your own blanket-we're only going to the 'Goofies'(!)

Those staterooms are cute. Very 1950s! But besides joing the maritime equivalent of the mile-high club, what are you going to do in a stateroom on the way from Sturdies Bay to Puddleduck Harbour?

They took the Sunshine Breakfast off the menu months ago. Too many people made fun of it, they said. I was among them, but I ate it, and now I miss that glutinous lemony pseudo Hollandaise. Who do I call to say I'm sorry?

If you want to make money for ferries to keep fares low, get rid of the private sector component with the necessity for profits. Totally nationalise the service back to the way it was before Gordon Campbell messed it up.

There are lots of good reasons to bitch about BC Ferries, as this thread makes clear. Turning to Mr Sandborn's article, I seem to recall that Air Canada had a first-class section when it was a Crown Corporation owned by the people of Canada. I also recall that BC Ferries had private suites when it was a Crown Corporation. Finally, MLAs of all political stripes have been getting favourable treatment aboard BC Ferries for years. And, after they retire or are defeated, they all receive free lifetime passes. (Perhaps this has changed recently; I don't know.) I don't recall any ex-MLA, of any political stripe, turning down the pass--much less condemning the practice.

As a subscriber to The Tyee and an avid reader and supporter of this online publication. I found the stories on media ethics recently posted to be fairly thoughtful. As well there were many thoughtful posts on those threads from readers. With that in mind I am curious why Tom Sanborn would call into question the BCFMWU's decision to refrain comment. Usually in a story, if a party does not wish to say anything and you want to have a dig at them you say, "the party was contacted by the (publication) and refused to comment. That usually is a pretty decent poke in the eye. But Tom says "curiouser and curiouser". He goes on to say, is the union bruised, from its last run-in with management and unwilling to pick a public fight. Where does this come from. Is he editorializing as so many complain in this space about Canwest etc. The BCFMWU and a few others are the only organisations that have stood up to this Government. Toe to toe. Isn't that worth a mention?

No surprises here. If you are, you ain't been paying attention. It fits with the entire direction of the BC Liberals "class warfare" politics and economic policies. Which needs to be responded to with a class warfare strategy of their own by the left, and the great common herd of average Joes and Janes. Until it is, expect more such good old fashioned blatant "classism" that benefits the ruling class and its loyal retinue of ass kissers, of whom we have a few examples here. "The left is jealous at anybody who can get something that they can’t so they will do everything in their power to stop everybody from enjoying any luxuries." writes Jungle Jim. Blow it out one of your bodily orifices, Jim. You're just jealous that trade unions can get something you can't, a little bit of power, a better share of the collective economic product, and some respect. Eat your heart out, sucker. More goes to the top strata of society for such priviledged digs on a public carrier, only by taking it from the bottom stratas, and impoverishing them. That's what creates the sharp demarcation of class lines that are emerging more and more blatantly, though they have actually always been there. It's just more obvious now, because we're all feeling it more and more. That ain't roses you smell, but ruling class hubris, with its unwiped butt bared for you to kiss. (Though it's not so much the "ruling class" per se, one is likely to see in even a "swank" ferry lounge, but more their political and mid level managerial minions. They have their own "private" means of travel, usually air, that doesn't require they be in such close proximity to the unwashed, plebs and prols. That being anathema to them. It is important to maintain the separation of the classes as much as possible, for fear it arouse "envy" that can lead to ugliness.)

rower's benches! excellent idea. it seems like this all part of the grand scheme to cater to the jet set that will be coming for the 2010 games. it's vital to spruce up the province to lure more euro hunters for a little trophy hunting.

Anyone who travels across the English Channel, or from New Zealand to Australia, or Sidney to Anacortes, can see how absolutely terrific B.C. Ferries is. Was. When I had overseas guests I wanted to impress, I'd make sure we caught one of the big beautiful Spirit ferries; it worked every time. As for 1st class vs steerage, who needs it the division. Remember Wardair? Max Ward understood this factor. His aircraft made every seat 1st class -- 3-course meals served one course at a time, on fine china! -- and it was a joy to be on board.

They BETTER post new era private cops at the entrance to these elitist staterooms otherwise I'm coming in to get a good look at the enemy. I kind of know who they are already, I see them on their way to wife-swapping parties in Whistler, driving their pretentious euro-suvs and humvies, everyday.(I wonder if all humvies have armour plating? Actually maybe the reptublicans can make sure the elist ruling class get first dibs on the armoured humvies and stop wasting them on lowly grunts from poor families in Iraq.) Remember gordo aspires to bush and sees the good ol usa evrytime he makes another policy dcision in Victoria.

Peter Lahay makes a good point, although I suspect we are all guilty at times of reading more into non-action than is there to read. I expect now that we all know about this latest lttle "government secret," the sentiments of the union membership will be made known. Despite what some pundits are suggesting, there is little chance of seeing any government cabinet ministers hiding out in the hi-priced ferry seats. They have access to quicker city-to-city heli-service. That is if they haven't graduated to hitching rides on jets that are supposed to transport the ill. So if your intent is to spend a bunch of extra coin to give a captive government MLA an earfull, I'm afraid the best you'll likely get is some backbencher, who's helping himself to seconds.

Another fine bit of Tyee reporting. How long will it be until we are force-fed non-stop advertising on the "Telus" deck?

The class system is all about low self-esteem, about people who need lots of labels, special treatment, and special lounges to tell them who they are. They don't have a clue themselves. Pity the poor bastards who need a big screen tv to amuse themselves for an hour when all around them are natural wonders. I like BC Mary's idea that every seat should be first-class and everyone treated well. Of course, with the bedecked and be-labeled corporate mentality that reigns today that may take an evolutionary grand leap forward...

Hey folks this might not be so bad having MLA’s locked up in first class, the opportunity would be there to give them your opinion for a few extra dollars! :)

Oh, this is funny. Yes, I love it when the tv show clips of the neo-fascist fundraising dinners and who attend. lol These immature, underdeveloped 'boys' (and girls) are so much like the barroom drunk with their 'bigshotism', buying rounds of Chivis for the bar room, while the children are home without any milk. Always working on the the 'big deal' which involves a whole lot of (someone elses) money with out any hard labour on their part. Of course, we all know what happens to that drunk if he doesn't sober up and change his character. What a bunch! It is too late for them. I can hear th stampede left again. We don't want to keep up this swing, but it is about balancing this boat we all reside in. Maybe one day we'll have whatever part of the ship is that keeps it floating and not tipping over. But, it's not this election and not with these people. sigh.

There should be three classes of ferries,one class for the wealthy,as they are most unappreciated of sharing their air with those of lesser wealth,to prevent imposters from boarding, a current income tax receipt must be presented, acceptance for boarding will start at $225,000 The next class should be reserved exclusively for the NDP,to allow them to mingle with the normal population in such confined quarters would cause contamination of the gene pool, all windows would be removed on this class of ferry as to allow NDP'ers to disembark while on route,there would be no need for life boats, NDP'ers can walk on water, and of course Lewis the Swift would be their greeter, The last class of ferries would be for all us normal salt of the earth people.

Obviously Tom and the majority of posters here use the ferries on a very infrequent basis. Tom you may be standing on the deck waiting for the Sunshine Breakfast, but I'm afraid you'll be waiting for a long time. It was axed several years ago (great little breaky it was with the delectable sauce, synthetic ham and powdered eggs served with an ice cream scoop). I would welcome a lounge to relax in. I use the ferry quite frequently, and spend the majority of my trips in the car, rather than go upstairs. You see, in the winter on the 5pm sailing, it's sort of dark, so that kind of makes it tough to admire the "heart-stopping scenery". So pity me for working on my laptop during the voyage, but when you take the ferry more than once a year for a vacation to the island, you understand that while whale and scenery watching is a great summer activity, you have to find something else to do in the winter. When it's busy on the sailing, there is nothing more frustrating than trying to read, do a bit of work on the laptop, or eat when there are no seats, or you have trouble thinking because children are screaming and running around like the entire ferry is their playground. I would gladly pay a bit more to sit somewhere quiet other than my car, with internet access, and a good coffee, that is void of kids and rude pushy people trying to get in the food line in front of you so they can get their Triple O burger first. And lefties - stop trying to turn this into some proletarian, industrial revolution-like working class struggle of the poor against rich. It's simply a service for people who use the ferry on a regular basis. A place on the ferry where regular users can do what they want to do without listening to your kids scream. If you don't like it, don't use it!! It's a service you would pay for, so I really doubt it will increase fares, so get over it.

Talk of mandate rouses my hackles,did not he liberals -so called get voted in on an agenda to privatize everything possible . Maybe it was just antiNDP swing voters,noneless my impression was this crowd won now a mandate is what this group says it is till next election. The promise of privatization of all ,that could be, was not refuted nor confirmed i think by this group. Help me delinate that bhut i think it is moot since they are the ins. Why not privatize the ferry totally and have the market place and its myriad wonders to behold? Are we squeamish or not? The better able to pay or want to pay for a service should drive our ferry service. By the way why should the swartz bay twassen run subsidize loser runs. Make the ferry either total commerical based [private sell shares] or total gov't drain. This mixed compromise economy is bound to displease all. The medical community where the docs say they are not a union, self employed blah,blah is an example of what happens when the taxpayers are screwed as the education dept. and policing all under the auspices of union protecting the "worker".Subsidizing one segment of services from the seemingly bottomless pitof taxes gets my craw. We ,the taxpayers get screwed over time and time again, almost makes one think about not voting.

Many excellent comments to balance the status quo apologists.

"I like BC Mary's idea that every seat should be first-class and everyone treated well. Of course, with the bedecked and be-labeled corporate mentality that reigns today that may take an evolutionary grand leap forward..." wrote Lynn, with whom I frequently agree, and no more than here, along with BC Mary's observation.

But I also agree with "anonymous, directly above, when she/he says, "Maybe one day we'll have whatever part of the ship is that keeps it floating and not tipping over. But, it's not this election and not with these people. sigh."

I fear similarly, though she might take some umbrage; me being one of that left urging, well... not so much a stampede, that being a suicidal course, as whatever has to be "rationally but determinedly" done to change the course of this behemoth shoal bound ship of state. And if that means, as I suggest it does, taking on the ruling class and its minions, then let's quit whining and get to it. Sighing, like faint heart, or wishing upon a star, never won fair maid, or changed the world and the course of history either.

Beg'n yer pardon Capn' but I does wonder how a man likes yerself with all yer high falutin' words an' edjamacation calls sumtin' like TV 'something to do'. As to 'kids screaming' well Sir there is large body of evidence that suggests you yerself was once a child-as long ago as dat might 'a bin.

The future, like power, rightly belongs to those with the hoozpah, testicles, vagina to seize it, and make it theirs. If that be them, as it has to here, then so it will be-, until the meek finally find the wherewithall to sieze their promised inheritence. :-)

For the meek do not really inherit the earth. They just get used as door mats by everyone else.

Hey Sammy, did I say TV? No I said somewhere quiet to read and have a coffe or do a bit of work. And yes TV, would class as something to do. So I was a kid once. Big deal. I'm just saying if there's a place where I can sit on that river scow and not listen to your brats, then sign me up. Otherwise I'll stick to my car thanks so I don't run into povs like you in the food lineup.

Cap'n-30+ yeers I bin travellin' de ferry and I ain't never et on one yet-an' I nev'r will. Ignerunt don' meen stoopid-not by a long shot.

You should try it sometime - those Triple O's are good. Except you lose your appetite a bit when it costs you as much for something to eat as it does to bring your car on the ferry.

bc ferries should concentrate on better service for the majority. by installing a parking spot for the rich and spoiled tender asses out there, they are ignoring what the majority really want. On time sailings, no long line-ups, a fair price to get back and forth. We can't even get a parking lot, tho have tried for decades. The real question is, "Who is BC Ferries working for now?" This is a vital transportation link for BC'ers, not a luxury cruise.

McGeer had it right years ago. Let's build a bridge. If a tiny place like PEI deserves such federal largesse, then surely BC does. If Paul Martin wishes to earn his stripes as a PM with his ear (and pocketbook) open to the West, he might consider resurrecting this idea.

I wans dem taxpayer dollahs, you bets. I runs your ferries and we nevah runout of patties for the whitespot triple oh (my god, that tastes offal) and i has da free ennerprise plan...jes set yo' kiddies and da ol' lady down on those benches I be puttin' inna basement, hand 'em a set of oars, and let my 300 pound overseer crack th' whip...cheap fares, you bet, oh boy...

Idi, I want that job, I can do it! I'm your man...I hate women and children, please Idi, PLEASE, I'll do anything...

Mr. Christiaaaannnnnnn! I said Triple O's and Heineken were for 'the lounge'! The breadfruit is for jim's women and children at the oars!

so are B.C. ferries working for the Bushinator now. Whats next are the life rafts and life jackets only reserved for the rich too. is this what the tickets will now say.(so long you poor slobs if the ship goes down, well see you on the bottom, and p.s good luck hope you can swim) gotta luv canada ey...

Excerpt from the Journals of Moodie Susanah, a west vancouver yuppie: December 23, 2008, from the deck of the new ferry fleet flagship: "The Spirit of Neoliberalism" -Oh, my gracious, another tiresome morning, another of those homeless street urchins you're seeing so many of today tried to beg a quarter from me this morning...The nerve...why she almost acted as if she had human rights, the government STILL won't let kids work until they're at least three years old, why the poor can't all just die, I'm sure I just don't know...it's been a funny morning, dear diary, some bc mla announced from his private suite to be on the loookout for a man who keeps trying to tell passengers we're sailing for "the heartlands of darkness," but I just wish we'd sail faster, Damn it, CAN'T THOSE BRATS ROW FASTER...DOESN'T ANYONE CARE ANY MORE? Well, as I was saying the captain, captain collins, was by with a strange look in his eye earlier talking about spending more time with his family, Gord's been so cold and distant lately. MANAIACAL, in fact, some say, I don't know, Gordon Never tells me anything, but those horrible genetic experiments he allowed the fraser institute to conduct, and now we're sailing up, way up, that endless river DENIAL, the longest river there is, you know, I'm WORRIED about Gordon, dear diary, he's really worried about bc voters not knowing he just gave texas bc hydro and legal claim to all of BC's water "for spit and a handshake," as he put it, I don't know what the fuss is though, like gordon says we still own the bedrock under all of our resources, AS LONG as the bedrock doesn't have any resources, I don't think that's a broken promise, do you, dear diary??

"McGeer had it right years ago. Let's build a bridge. If a tiny place like PEI deserves such federal largesse, then surely BC does. If Paul Martin wishes to earn his stripes as a PM with his ear (and pocketbook) open to the West, he might consider resurrecting this idea." What the hell are you thinking Al Lehmann, this would make the BCFMWU redundent, and would shorten trip time. What a stupid idea.

Respectfully, Coyote, that is not the biblical definition of meek, but a modern definition of meek. My interpretation of meek is to fight for what is right and I do mean fighting for social justice. The meek do inherit the earth.

I am against privatisation, but I am not so sure that we should be fighting against having "business class" or "first class" areas on the ferries. We need high calibre medicare for all and we should fight for that without the watering down that would occur with two-tier medical coverage. Are we not wasting our time fighting against this change on a couple of the BC Ferries?

A bridge would cost up around $4 billion and i have seen high estimates I read someplace once the problem with a bridge across the gulf is its deeper and its tons of sand as it makes it differant than PEI and not to mention creating another obstical for deep sea ships heading for burrard inlet. A tunnel has been looked into as well. A floating bridge would get beaten to a pulp in the winter months and the bridge to PEI does get closed often in high winds. the bridge is only 13 KMs long, it is long enough. the crossing from lets say sand heads to nanaimo is like 30kms + - don't have a chart infront of me so i'm estimating. it would save tax dollars and bc ferries money to put a fixed link to Rowell River then onto the island that way. their is alot shorter span to the island that route and that would get rid of 2 money losing routes. It still cost money to get to PEI the toll on the bridge there is like $38.00 and for some reason it was a 3 hour crossing on the ferry there but only takes 15 mins to drive. here is a post fromthe ministry of management services that has some short responce from the ministry of transport............................................ Privatize BC Ferries Feb. 15/02 A submitter suggested: I believe that BC Ferries is a tremendous waste of my money. I would like to see the liberal government eliminate or privatize the ferries. Or a more drastic solution would be to construct a bridge to the island. I write this after taking the ferry from Horseshoe Bay to Departure Bay. I was disgusted with the terrible service and I feel something should be done about this dog of a crown corp. Solution: If PEI got a bridge why can't we? We responded: The Ministry of Transportation responded: With respect to your suggestion to privatize BC Ferries, all of the activities of the BC Ferry Corporation (BCFC) will be reviewed as part of the provincial government's Core Services Review. The Core Services Review is a comprehensive and rigorous examination of all provincial programs and activities. Its objective is to identify and to confirm the provincial government's core roles and responsibilities, and to identify ways to improve the delivery of government services in the interests of the taxpayer. Under the Core Services Review, privatizing some or all of BC Ferries will be one of many options considered. Your suggestion of constructing a bridge between the mainland and Vancouver Island has been previously studied in the early and mid-1980s. The cost-estimating portion of these studies was recently updated to reflect inflation rates in the construction industry since those studies were undertaken. The updated preliminary cost estimate for a bridge from the mainland to Vancouver Island is now over $4 billion. It is unlikely that the provincial government would undertake a capital investment of this magnitude. However, if the private sector were to express an interest in financing constructing and operating such a bridge, the Province would not be adverse to looking at this option more seriously. The Province would only be willing to consider a bridge crossing from the mainland to Vancouver Island if the project was primarily financed by the private sector (as was the case with the PEI Bridge). Engineering, environmental and social challenges associated with the construction of a bridge between the mainland and Vancouver Island would be of much greater complexity than those faced during the construction of the PEI Bridge. These challenges would obviously need to be addressed prior to such a project proceeding. from............. http://www.wastebuster.gov.bc.ca/popt/sample_10.htm

C-gull, 1/20/2005 1:07:48 PM, writes: There should be three classes of ferries that was too funny!!!

the feds pay for the east coast ferries. why? they`re inter-provincial. does that suggest a solution? like a new separtist party. ei matey!

What a good idea for having luxury class! Similarily, one should apply the same to the roads and highways. Therefore those who can afford it can have a dedicated lane, with smooth road surface; no pot-holes definitely; no flooding during storms; no drinking ban; no speed limits; may be a nice car wash and car detailing at the end of the trip. This will be the end of democracy where "Liberty, Equality and Fraternity" will disappear.

What an eho

I love your post eho - this is what the debate is really about - the struggle to free "life" from the dollar value marketplace. When Capt. Bligh says he wants a quiet place to read on the ferry, that is understandable but it has nothing to do with money. Any kind of logic will tell you that. Since every passenger has a seat on the ferry, make some small area ( a simple sign will do), an area where adults and children are expected to tone it down a little, libraries function on that same principle of goodwill and consideration of others all the time. Why does it have to cost more money? What does it have to do with money?

This is the same mentality that is taking place in our parks, where once what was free, a public space, has been infiltrated with user fees. When we already pay taxes, what does money have to do with enjoying nature in our public parks? What's the price of gazing at the sky?

Just as in the use of private clinics, money is the determining factor for quality of life. The tier system feeds off this. And don't think it is just a two-tier system, for those of you who are willing to pay more, because above that top tier there will always be another higher tier looming, that has more money to buy your privileged position on the line out and supercede you once again...because it's all about money and pricetags, and as eho says not about "liberty, equality and fraternity" , not democratic at all.

I'm with coyote with not being so meek in our resistance, though I understand your interpretation of it, Sue Clark. For those of you that think we are making too much of this, Rosa Parks, could have just said it was only about a seat on a bus...but that seat and where it was placed was highly symbolic and every time Rosa sat in it she knew she gave up a piece of her human dignity. What she did was revolutionary because she demanded she be treated equally, that she was worthy of a good seat on the bus like everyone else. Fine article by Tom Sandborn.

Excerpt from the diary of Moody Susanah, a West Vancouver Yuppie, January 3, 2009: "Today gord was talking about two -tier AIR, and I'm just SO excited. The idea is to install in all public places and workplaces, an INNOVATIVE system that takes at least half the OXYGEN out of the air of the worker bees, and THEN PUMPS IT OVER TO THE MANAGERIAL OR FIRSTCLASS SECTION OF THE BUILDING. I'm just SO excited, and Gordon says it will cut short the lives of children of the poor, and save the state, and the wealthy taxpayer, well, just HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS!! I got so excited I SPIT ON A PANHANDLER EARLIER TODAY, and then, GOSH!! I got excited the other way...I sure hope gordon comes soon, even if he isn't much in the sack...

Well the feds pay for ferries in the east because that was part of the confederation agrement, on Vancouver Island the agreement was rail service for the Island Vancouver Island and BC joined just before confederation and the capital of BC was moved to Victoria from New West Minster. The Island rail way plans were to go as far as Campbell River then on to the mainland to Powell River but the story was they ran out of money, that was back in the late 1800s

See you in 1st class. If it makes my trip better and I feel its worth it. I like it. Just like on airplanes and executive class whats the big deal

The big deal is that we have being paying for years for the ferry system and continue to do so. No matter what restructuring they have done it is still our service. We want the lowest fares possible and expedient service. Not, a 1st class lounge. Oh, by the way, for the fellow who thinks first class bans children... lol They don't. They just provide the crayons and a snack pack. You're not suggesting children should be banned from the lounge...are you? Geesh.

"What a good idea for having luxury class! Similarily, one should apply the same to the roads and highways." wrote echo, in a wee piece that I loved.

I don't know what the rest of you think, but I think it has actually been a fun thread, with nonetheless, a number of interesting layers to it. Even Cap'n Bligh and his associated merry pranksters have been a part of that.

Like Lynn, I think this has been a very good article by Tom Sandborn, which this conversational thread with, like I say, its many layers and subtleties makes clear, that most of us, at least, really see the "class" implications of what is unfolding here in this province under the so-called "Liberals". Even the Liberal apologists that have posted here don't dispute the "classism", but merely seek to explain it away and celebrate it. Which those of us on the underside of the "class pile" may not feel quite so anxious to do.

What is occurring within current society is really not a mystery or so difficult to understand. Indeed, it is transparent as hell, for eyes and intellects not wearing blinders or rose coloured glasses.

Even while Sue and I "discuss" our semantical difference over the meaning of the word "meek", for example, her a "believer" and I not, we share an understanding that the future involves the unavoidability of "conflict", I think.

A further reminder to me, at least, that I should be careful of judging people by the labels they hang on themselves, or that others do. We should at least be "careful" of judging, lest we be judged. Better we judge others by what the do, instead.

By which the BC Libs and their new found Brownshirt friends still stand condemned.

Hmmm. That's the first time I've tried a Jack Daniels. Not half bad, for a Yankee liquor. (I mean, it's not a Scottish single malt, but still... acceptable to the "mature male" palate.)

Eh! It'a Friday evening! Cut me a little slack will ya.

Back to the Jack Daniels. A better "sipping" Canadian whiskey, in my opinion, is a Forty Creek Whiskey, which one generally has to "order in", at least out here in the deep boonies. It's not quite a "single malt" quality either, but beginning to crowd in on the best of what the oatmeal savages have to offer. :-)

A pleasant evening sisters and brothers.

Now, now Coyote. Those "oatmeal savages" left me some DNA and, while I don't share your fondness for their now legal moonshine, I must point out they didn't all eat oatmeal.

Ah, yes. let's bring back the good old days of nationalized BC Ferry Corp and the "half-fast ferries." Fondly I recall travelling half-way across the strait from Duke Pt aboard one of these fine vessels, and how endeared we became of our glorious and visionary leader, Herr Glen.

Driving on, being told to get off the car deck and leave the pets inside the car, for safety reasons. Walking upstairs where we were jammed together like sardines, no place to sit, and the miles of brushed and polished aluminum with some garish colour and bright lights adding to this sardine tin ambience. All it needed was a row of slot machines and big screens with Bobby Darin crooning and one might have thought one had entered the gates of Hades, or at least Las Vegas. The Captain coming on the PA and suggesting that the people on the outside deck with the "funny cigarettes" should douse them because they causing discomfort for the handful of passengers lucky enough to find a place to stand outside. The crappy fastfood dispensery was vile too.

Then, the piece de resistance: the thrumming of engines died and we were spinning round and round in choppy water. Look outside the starboard window of our half-fast ferry, I said to my wife, there's Vancouver, no wait, I think it's the Gulf Islands. You're wrong, she replied, that's Nanaimo, no, sorry, you're right, that's Vancouver... where did it go? The ashen-faced elderly couple standing next to us glared and muttered, soto voce, that we weren't funny.

Of course, the Captain returned to the PA to inform us that the engines had died and that there would be no extra charge for this part of the trip, and to remember that we were strictly verboten to go to the car deck or smoke our last cigarette outside. We were well pleased with this information, as we got the best part of an hour aboard this vessel at no additional charge.

Just as we were wondering whether Herr Glen had equipped the vessel with row boats or life jackets, or had blown the cash on a defrocked bust of himself to adorn the bow of the half-fast ferry, the engines suddenly burst into song. We sent a fine tsunami of wake towards the hapless citizens ashore, and before long we were in Horseshoe Bay. Yes, we made record time on our half-fast ferry.

We scraped the doggie vomit off the back seat, put it in a fast food bag and left it with a steward, with our compliments for the glorious people's revolutionary leader in Victoria. Aye, those were the good old days.

What worries me, when I read through this thread, is that too many of us are fighting against one another, instead of co-operating. It gives party politics a bad name.

Let's focus on the serious issues which beset this beloved province. Pick one to support or to protest as best you can.

My particular concern is the significance of the unprecedented R.C.M.P. raid on a Legislature (ours) with its national implications of electoral corruption powered by organized crime.

As I see it, pirates are assaulting our ship of state; they'll sink it if they can't succeed in stealing it. All of us (together, at last!) risk sinking with such a torpedoed ship if we don't take a more positive way of working together toward a safer, saner British Columbia.

Oh Kurt, I wept bitterly when I read your TRAGIC TALE of someone of your obvious social class and sterling character having to endure the insults of the hoi-polloi! Why, I had to take another five prozacs right away. Like you, I wish that all the underclass could JUST, DIE!!..But Gord says Rich Coleman is going to be the next premier, and with abortion then being ILLEGAL, I fear the rabble, who you so rightly despise are going to breed more than ever...gee Kurt, I just read Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale (Well, ok, so I fibbed a little, I don't actually READ that much, I saw it on video) and I just can't understand what all those women in red robes were complaining about...looks like they had it pretty good to me...and don't worry about all those nasty lower class people, Gord says we'll EXTERMINATE them soon anyway...bye, for now, kurtsey, hope to meet you some day soon, I can tell you're a REAL man...

Moodie Susanah I guess it,s presently PMS time for you poor confused dear thing,take 3 ndp,s and go to bed, you shouldn't feel any better tommorow.

BC Mary, of course you are right. It's just unfortunate that we have to deal with the Kurts of the world, who appear intent on trying to distract us from the real bags of "doggie vomit" in the legislature. The fast ferries were chump change compared to the deal CN got on BC Rail. Of course, there is much speculation that the deal involves many more millions of dollars lost to the public, but the government is keeping it all secret. It fits in quite well with the current case of laryngitis RCMP communications people have suffered through since the police raids on Liberal cabinet ministers' legislative offices in late 2004. But I remain optimistic our police will soon regain their voices that were so crucial in providing details about raids and investigation into Glen Clark, which incidently, were found by the courts to be much overblown. Oh, now I get it, the police are a little gun shy and are quite concerned about hurting a politicians reputation. Talk about "doggie vomit."

See -gulled, was it YOU I saw on the ferry deck having the unnatural relations with the dead fish? Oh for shame, Its the tiny remnants of your conscience that drive you to such unnatural acts, you must delete your conscience as I and Gordon have done in this Brave New Era. And please, no corpses, either, while they are a triumph of dear gordon's "policies," they were simply NOT intended for your personal use...

Re Allan's comments it's interesting that Gordon Campbell has just USED ANOTHER NDP strategy -TARGETTED TAX CUTS, to save the movie industry. Of course he's proved beyond all doubt, that ACROSS THE BOARD TAXCUTS, like the disastrous uncampaigned on cuts brought in after the 2001 election have BEEN A TOTAL ECONOMIC FAILURE, BC HAVING LOST 22,600 FULL TIME WELL PAYING JOBS LAST YEAR. But then many of you, such as Kurt still have your tainted money. So what if your kids no longer have a future? How many BILLIONS of dollars worth of work has gordon liar given away so far? Counting BC Rail with new coal revenues thrown in, its average 80 million dollar a year revenue over 19 of the last twenty years, its sale for half of its assessesed value, BC Rail alone must be a 3 billion dollar giveaway. Add on a half billion in ferry work, billions in accounting work, that once paid decent salaries IN BC, the tax revenue and economic spinoff from the 22,600 FULLTIME WELL PAYING JOBS the vancouver Sun itself reported on December 7, 2004 that the liars lost year, the guttting of BC's rural econopmy by the closing down of dozens of essential services must be good for another billion easy...Five billion here, five billion there, and pretty soon you're talking about real money, but never mind, the wealthiest STILL have their TAINTED, filth-ridden taxcut that the rest of us got snatched back in user fees....

Has anyone remembered the doug hall incident , how about an update? Lost 400 thou of tax payer funds allocated to Carenet but was not, according to some ,tendered as per gov't rules. Perhaps those funds can go to pay for high ticket ferry rides lounge,somewhat like private boxes at GMplace, reserved for ever written off on corporate balance sheets so less tax goes to Ottawa? That's the spin offs i like empty seats or boxes while the plebes ride in steerage.

"Oh Kurt, I wept bitterly when I read your TRAGIC TALE of someone of your obvious social class and sterling character having to endure the insults of the hoi-polloi!" weeps Moodie Susanah.

(Chuckling.:-) He just can't hide behind his wifes skirts enough, can he, doing her good works the dear, that it isn't red faced obvious his hoi poloi snobbery's penchant for standing up on his hind legs to "try" and pee on the rest of us unwashed, who unforgivably deign to breathe "His" air. Except, of course, His Lordship but dribbles all over his own slippers. What a caricature of a fine educated "gentleman" this ridiculous eunuch is.

Better he should stay down on the car deck with his yappy little toy dog, than befoul the air of us prols in steerage class.

We're not so uneducated and unkempt that we aren't onto this feigning do-gooder, playing the role of our better.

Our better! What a joke.

Moodie Susanah that wasn't a dead fish I was haveing a go at,although she did smell that way, it was one of your NDP sisters, there is some thing really fishy about you NDP gals.

Kurt, what a tragic experience for you. You must be damaged for life. All that mingling and inter-mingling amongst the gumboot set, poor you! Before you take too many more bites into the Captain on the ferry, you should know that they have more years of training than a medical doctor and that there have been many dark, stormy nights we have arrived home safely over the years because of the expertise of a skilled captain and crew. I think you should stick to mall shopping. Definitely avoid Calcutta or Rangoon, Machu Picchu or gosh even downtown Moose Jaw...it could be the end of you. Oh, the fragility of it all...

Kurt does have a point the fast cats were problematic. I rode one of the fast cat ferrys 2 times I didn't like the size it was too small and those ferries were not sutied for that run. but all that aside and as much as I hated the way the ndP government just messed it up completly we should have kept them and used them and fixed them. When i took the fast cat it was 1/2hour late leaving and got to horseshoe bay on time. I was impressed with that but not impressed with how much they cost. they would have been better used for duke point to tsawassen during peak season.

You obviously have a problem with women, C-gulled, of any political stripe. That your monicker is that of a scavenging bird that craps all over the landscape, and is fond of eating baby ducklings raw, says volumes about your "character," which is nearly as crude and deficent as your "wit."

BC Ferry crews are Canada Transport safety trained and safety approved, but Gordon says he's "fixing" that. And dear Gordon couldn't keep the fast cats, they actually kept decent paying jobs in BC, kept the ship building industry alive, and contributed to BC's economy, why the working people of BC actually thought they counted for something, and as Gordon always says, "the fraser institute didn't like it..." and besides, Gordon needed another excuse to attack those nasty ndpers, -"it's not enough that I have CAnwest Media so far up my butt you can see their logo in my eyes," dear, dear, gordon sobbed at the end of a long tiring day at Waikiki beach, "I must control everything, all must bow down to me, all..." gordon continued, and that night he and gary dressed up as sailors and went out assaulting indigent beggars, oh my darling Gordon, life has dealt you such a bitter hand, oh, oh, my darling...what wuthering, weathering, withering wonders shall life reveal next, and why has someone been using my diary for toilet paper? "Gordon!!!????"

"And dear Gordon couldn't keep the fast cats, they actually kept decent paying jobs in BC, kept the ship building industry alive, and contributed to BC's economy..." writes Moodie Susanah.

Sorry, Nationalist, I agree with Moodie on this one. Aluminum Fast Ferries was/ is still a relatively new concept, that like many new ventures and technological developments, requires fairly extensive periods of development, and large quantities of up front R&D investment. What it held out to our economy, now dashed by Gordo, was an updating of our own shipyards, more good paying and skilled jobs, an important secondary industry development alternative to simply bulk freighting offshore all our resources for others to produce into products that we should be developing the capacity for ourselves.

And lest you think that was a job for the overly stroked dog of "the private sector", for example, without huge investments of public cash, in straight up front money grants and forgiveable loans, tax breaks, market development assistance, and R&D investement forms, we nor Ballard Corp. would be as far along in the development of fuel cell technology as we are. This has been a money losing sinkhole for many, many years, but is still viewed as having potential technological development significance, such that it will be worth it in the end. Indeed, is just now beginning to be so. (But being perceived, at least, as an example of "private investment" initiative, it gets a pass card against too close a scrutiny from the corporate media and the other apologists of Big "Private" Corporatism.)

Indeed, the entire history of "private" capitalist development is full of such examples of public "risk" underwriting, state largesse, and various forms of "public funding" assistance too numerous to mention here-, starting even before the building of the railroads in this country. Indeed, without it, so-called "private" capitalist development would not be the "relative" success story it is. Behind every major capitalist success story, like the legendary woman behind every great man, is the great "public purse" provided by ordinary citizens, whether they know it or not, into which all the Corporate Greats have frequently dipped on their climb to fame and corporate glory.)

And this country is, afterall, a seafaring nation, though in the spirit of current "corporate globalization" much dependant on low paying "off-shore based carriers". We would be better served over the long haul, instead of idly watching our shipbuilding industry wither on the vine of marginalization and disuse, needs precisely this kind of "new product research and development".

For all the faults one can rightly sling at the NDP, this initiative of the Clarke government is not one of them. Gordo and his Neocon Liberals selloff of this asset will in years to come, in my view, be seen to have been short-sighted-, for the purpose of merely the own politically opportunist gain, on which the co-called "free media" all stepped into obedient line.

They preferred that we absorb a huge loss instead, on this "public" investment, rather than even continue to use them for ourselves, or risk them becoming an ultimate success story for the NDP and "public" initiative. The myths of capitalist development need constant protecting, and is, unfortunately, much assisted by a large reservoir of public gullibility out there.

When Toronto needed a Fast Cat last year to link up with New York State, they would probably have bought one of B.C.'s Fast Cats if those classy ships hadn't been trashed by an aggressive chorus of opposing politicians. [Remember how the NDP government brought in a team of U.S. engineers to evaluate the Fast Cats and they gave the ships almost 100% approval -- a fact buried in CanWest newspapers on p. 16 in a small paragraph.]

So, fearing a public back-lash if they bought something so thoroughly blackened by bad publicity, Ontario bought a Fast Cat from Australia. Pity.

Sad but true, words can kill. Oh. And our Fast Cats, I believe, are going to be used as floating casinos off the U.S. east coast. Quelle surprise!

Ben Quack ever heard the saying don't get into a pissing match with a skunk,you wine just like your NDP brother lu-ass Swift,could it be possible your both quackers.

NationalistI agree with your views on the NDP-Fastcat fiasco.I asked a supposedly NDPer insider that very question, Why did they not use the Fast Cats on the Tsawassen-Duke Point run, the only answer was a shrug of the shoulders, maybe some one on this site could provide us with proper answer to that question.

I look forward to a full implementation of class-based accomodation on the ferries, where the riff-raff and their boisterous brood can be sequestered on the upper decks with their big screen sports tvs, stuffing their flabby faces with White Spot muffins, while the rest of us, or at least I, can sit comfortably in steerage and read a book and watch the scenery go by, at water level, and pet my dog, since that's probably the only level I will be able to afford.

It is interesting to google "fast ferries" and see that they are successfully operating all over the world and that Mr. Clark, in this instance, perhaps made the dangerous mistake of being ahead of his time. Though personally I don't mind a slower ferry ( but then I still like our old patched canoe as well ) I have a friend whose husband is a marine architect and he said the fast ferries could have easily been saved by making some adaptations but as Coyote says above this would have made an NDP and "a public initiative" successful which is definitely a no-no in the GC Liberals handbook. BC Mary's reference to "words can kill", the toxic potion brewed by a combined effort of political sabotage and a co-operative media (her reference to page 16) basically poisoned any chance to save the fast ferries and a healthy shipbuilding industry in BC.

"... the only answer was a shrug of the shoulders, maybe some one on this site could provide us with proper answer to that question." wrote Nationalist.

I don't really know for sure, of course, but suspect by then that the NDP was all running scared from the corporate media hysteria-, for which they have long had a tendency in power, when the really big boys begin to shove, and which is one of those legitimate faults/shortcomings one can rightly sling at the NDP.

Which is the really serious problem that arises for that particular brand of "social democratic" socialism, that basically leaves the existing capitalist economic and political power structure unchallenged, in favour of contenting itself with a "Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition" role. You then have to live with and accept the reality that, that class which controls the economy holds the trump card over politics and democracy, and knuckle under when they seriously apply the thumbscrews.

The only solution that really exists out there for that societal state of affairs, like my jaw sometimes wearies of saying, is to broaden the base of power within the economy by increasingly circumscribing "private corporatist power",and expanding democratic control and decision making within the private and public corporate sector economy-, to include workers, the appropriate ngo's such as environmental groups, and broad community interests.

Though, going in to that, one has to understand you are talking a major fight over fundamental "power issues", which means you are going to need a view of politics that extends out further than merely this or that particular election, and that there is the need, over some greater or lesser period of time, to build a broad interconnected power base which will provide the "muscle bulk" to overcome the inevitable ruling class resistance to any change in their dominant position within the economy.

Nothing truly significant, however, is achieved without significant risk, in my experience, and the preparedness to take it on, for however long it takes.

Waxing philosophical, on the heels of thinking about the previous

To overcome ruling class "push", it really is necessary to "push" back with greater vigour and determination. Until one finds the wherewithall/ huzpah to do that, your politics can only be that of retreat and concessions.

In "class" politics, if you are not gaining ground, you're losing it. There is no permanent state of balance in the class war, only a brief state of rest from time to time, whilst both parties are equally exhausted. Which is the experience with capitalism from the time of the Industrial Revolution to January 23rd, 2005. The nature of the contest is, that somebody has to win in the end, and it goes on until somebody finally and decisively does. (And "they" can't win in the final analysis, because they always need "us", as "producers" and "consumers", in order to realize their precious private "profit" at all. It is their unresolvable quandry. We, on the other hand, just have to learn to do what they do, only for ourselves, then we don't need them at all anymore.)

Coyote that was my question regarding the Fast Cats Tsawassen-Duke point crossing, Lynn if it was a simple fix up, as your friend of a friend indicates,the Ndp gov't would have carried out those so called simple fix ups, ask your friend of a friend what happens to aluminum in the presence of fire, then advise us as to your findings, maybe then we'll all be a little closer to the truth.

First of all C-Gull, I didn't say a friend of a friend, I said my friend's husband. Secondly, he never said it was a "simple fix-up", he said some adaptations could have easily saved them. Personally, I think the fast ferries were more well-suited to be used on a Vancouver to Prince Rupert run, largely because of their infamous wash.

I'm not an aluminum expert, but we own an aluminum boat in our business and have used it for the last seventeen years. Almost everyone in this inlet owns an aluminum boat, largely because they are hardy boats and easily maintained. More and more commercial fisherman are also turning to aluminum. As far as I know, marine grade aluminum is non-combustible, and non-sparking. Aren't oil rigs using it in their construction now?

The only fire I know about is the fire sale of our fast ferries. The NDP will have to answer for their own decisions but they certainly were demonized for the fast ferries out of all proportion, which, of course, was the GC Liberals election strategy all along. (Googling "fast ferries" will reveal they are used all over the world now.) Now what about that BC Rail fiasco, involving the Fiasco of all Fiascos, the Raid on the BC Legislature? Any hot news burning there?

Excerpt from the journals of Moodie Susanah, a West Vancouver Yuppie, February 28, 2009: Well! We have been at sea for weeks now, Dear Diary, and I just don;t know WHAT'S going on anymore. I can hear the pounding of the drums on deck now BOOM-BUDDA-BOOM! BOOM-BUDDA-BOOM! and Gordon says we are sailing full speed FOR THE HEARTLANDS OF DARKNESS NOW, and then he gives out another one of his crazed little chuckles...There have been some VERY disturbing activities on deck last night, including a quasi-human sacrifice, of one "SEE-GULLED," A MOST FILTHY AND DISREPUTABLE AVIAN CREATURE, and also a once strong supporter of Gordon's. It seems that Mr Gulled is very upset that Gordon gave ICBC to Acccenture for the sum of $1.00, and "the promise to be nice to BC," and it seems that Mr Gulled is VERY upset, Dear Diary, that his personal car insurance is now $5000 a year...Well, Gordon set HIM straight, last night, at the full moon, at midnight, Gordon strangled Mr See- gulled, while frothing and foaming at the mouth, screaming something about, "Remember the brown shirts in Germany, well I don't need you any more, EITHER!!" Ah, the middle class, I guess they were actually STUPID enough to think Gordon was working for them, instead of just the upper 5%! My, dear diary, aren't they just INCREDIBLY STUPID!! BOOM-BUDDA-BOOM! BOOM-BUDDA-BOOM! Oh dear, they're at it AGAIN on deck, dear diary, and I understand they've started on the rowers now, mostly women and children, I KNOW Gordon, said "we ALL have to make SACRIFICES, but I never took him so LITERALLY, Dear Diary, until now....

The middle class have been just so upset since their hydro rates quadrupled after Gordon gave BC hydro to Accenture, over a loss in a poker game, why the way they talk, you'd think they were important dear diary, WHEREVER, did they come by such ideas

Captain Collins staggered off the bridge a few minutes ago, announcing that we'll be docking in New Orleans tomorrow, (after which, he said he's QUITTING to spend more time with his family...) where dear Gordon will swear an oath of fealty to president for life, his majesty, George W. Bush...Gordon plans to lick the presiden's cowboy boots, as a special token of his affection and regard...Well, I must go beat my handmaid, now, she's been SO slack lately, that a taste of the whip is long overdue, and she STILL just doesn't seem to get the way Gordon's "FIXED" BC. Oh, the dreadfull and terrifying burdens of the elite!!

Much fun, Moodie. :-)

"There have been some VERY disturbing activities on deck last night, including a quasi-human sacrifice, of one "SEE-GULLED," A MOST FILTHY AND DISREPUTABLE AVIAN CREATURE"

But as for this creature, he/she, obviously very young and immature, has been with us in one guise or another for quite awhile, and is generally content with scraps of Lewis Swift, for whom it seems to have a particular hard-on.

This is our old friend Binette, who likes to shape shift, once he/she's worn out his/her welcome, even embarassing itself, I suspect, in one guise or another.

Just leave a little road kill out on the highway of life, to occupy it, and it is not much bother to otherwise useful discourse.

This is a fledgling, just learning to fly, afterall.

"The only fire I know about is the fire sale of our fast ferries." wrote lynn.

And as much as I know of the facts, Lynn, which is modest, I concede, you are entirely correct in your understanding of modern aluminium -, which has come a long way in its usefulness and industrial applications, since it was first developed in my youth. And it is its relative lightness to strength ratios that has, in fact, made it so attractive in aircraft and marine applications. It's problem has been, especially at the level of these fast ferries, if I understand my facts correctly, that it has some tricky "welding characteristics", in order to avoid developing cracks, requiring special skills and attention to detail. (I know that, though I have been a pretty good "farm level" welder, I never did have the right special equipment and techniques knowledge to do a good job of aluminium.)

That said, it seems to be the metal of choice, where "relative" lightness and strength, and minimum potential for corrosion is desired, such as marine applications-, and there is now a considerable body of knowledge known about how to do it properly, which Gordo and Co. chose to sell off in order to score self-serving political points. (With a chorus of approval and urging on from the corporate media.)

Like I will say again, I think in future years, it is going to come to be better known as having been a very harmful decision taken by the Neocon Libs, to our industrial development. It was they who, in the end, chose to flush all that investment down the toilet, not the NDP.

Why is it that BC Ferries (now being so very private) still feels that it partly belongs to me, little 'ol taxpayer??? The sell off of the fast cats was so transparently a political move of Gordo's. Said it would make his peacock feathers brighter. Now he can struut thru Victoria bigger than ever. Look at me, the biggest arse in history! The fast cat sell-off was a HUGE waste of our tax dollars. They have potential, and not having them now is costing us more moola. Interersting to note the corporations and neocon government mentality of the day is to lie, and then lie some more. The German shipyard building these new ferries had to get all employees take a 5% paycut to build them. If you want to keep your job, then you'll suck it up. We bid to low, waaahhh....

C-gull, what happens to wood in the presence of fire? Coyote, you bring up an interesting point about killing off our industrial development and accumulated skill sets, all to satisfy political ideology. It reminds me very much of the time my uncle lost his job. He was working for Avro near Toronto in the late 1950s when for some strange inexplicable reason the federal government stopped production of the Avro Arrow and then methodically went about confiscating and smashing all the parts of what was the best jet fighter technology of its day. This type of political action in both cases is, in my view, akin to burning books. Lynn, you are absolutely right. The problem with the fast ferries could easily have been corrected for one hell of a lot less than the hundreds of millions the Liberals gave away when they fire-saled those boats. In part, I believe, the then NDP government acted too meekly in trying to defend the fast ferries, but given the well orchestrated opposition's sense of spilled blood and its relentless efforts to undermine the government, it surprises me that government still managed to improve BC's economy, preserve large parts of BC for people in the form of parks and bring people of all walks of life together to negotiate and bring stability to so much of this province, improvements, I dare say, that have since been overturned by Gordon Campbell's impaired sense of fairness and decency.

Thanks for this, Tom. If you want a real hair-raising experience you should read the Corporate Plan. Available on the BCFS website at http://www.bcferries.com/files/AboutBCF/BCFStratPlan2003-2025.pdf

This is starting to look like that Seinfeld episode where Jerry happily scoots into a first-class seat while Elaine is stuck with the business class wretches. The BC Ferries went two-tier some time ago with their so-called "assured loading" system, which is nothing more than an extra fifteen bucks just for the privilege of getting aboard the goddamn thing. Those of us who refuse to pay get to eat SUV exhaust for an extra couple of sailings. Now, private luxury lounges with coffee and pastries for the BMW crowd while the rest of us line up for the grease du jour?? Nuts to that. Sink the fleet and start building the bridge!!

What about beer and a pool table?

Jim-I have no problem catering to the wealthy, however, not at the cost, or on the backs of the elderly, the mentally ill, children, education, health care, public infrastucture, or anything else that is forcing the wedge between the haves and the have nots. Party on you fat bastard! JYD

Thanks for your comments coyote and allan. It does seem ludicrous and narrow of vision that we have one of the world's largest ferry fleets ( in 1997, BC Ferries was the world's largest, whether that is still true I am not sure) and yet an opportunity to strengthen our own economic independence by developing and supporting our own industries is once again forfeited, this time out of sheer political spite ( and peacock feathers as ch says).

Nelle Maxey, thanks for the link. I have read your letters to the editor in our local paper and I have always wanted to tell you that they are some of the best I have ever read.

i will be the most open and accountable government you wil ever see,yah bull**** BC Lieberals

Is there ANYTHING left these Neo-Con twits can destroy, with an American here on a Visa doing it for them ? Roll on May election.

Well, when we had the people's airline "Air Canada", during its crown corporation phase, *first class* and economy class were the order of the day (and still is). I did not hear any of the class rhetoric against this *class* separation of passengers. We have premium lounges at YVR. I do not hear of any class rhetoric against these facilities. We have Helijet, an expensive travel option to Victoria. We have ferry reservations for those who wish to have guaranteed boarding. I do not hear of any class rhetoric against this financial option. We now have proposed premium lounges on BC Ferries, which will undoubtedly provide additional cash-flow to the corp. If this proposition will attract additional business passengers (with its likely more peaceful environment as well as internet access) or provide another option for current users, then so be it. Like any transport mode, it's all about providing market niches with what they want and earn extra cash-flow while meeting those needs.

I tried to send this article to some family members but was told repeatedly to enter a valid e-mail address. All addresses were valid and correctly typed. :-( Just so as you know. And I detest the idea in the article. If true, it's another step on the road to princes and peasants :-(

Lynn: thanks for the compliment re: my letters. Here's a few more tidbits: 1) Where are the Fast Ferries now? The Washington group is re-engining the fast ferries (that modification refered to) which they bought back at 4¢ on the dollar (less then scrap value). Now they won't be fast anymore, but they won't create the wake problems in our unique costal waters. They still can't carry the big heavy truck traffic, but Washington Group is maybe looking at that little problem too. How about some ships that CAN carry trucks and are designed to fit in the BC Ferries docks. Will the not-so-fast-cats appear on our waters soon in competition with BC Ferries (then the Commisioner can discontinue routes) or as alternate service provider for BC Ferries. We'll just have to wait and see, won't we? Taxpayer Subsidies: It seems little remarked that not only did we GIVE AWAY the ferry vessels to the new company with no money changing hands, but the taxpayer subsidy to BC Ferries has INCREASED by $32 million in the first year of commercialization: As a Crown Corporation:

Forgot to mention that BC Ferries CEO David Hahn is appearing in Powell River tomorrow night (Wed, Jan 26, 7pm, Evergreen Theatre) for a Town Hall Meeting. Should be very interesting!

Lynn thanks for setting me staight in regards to reg. aluminum versus marine grade aluminum,I admit I was unaware of marine grade aluminum and it's properties ,I asked the question,and you provide me the answer,again thank you.

What next?? A three-tier system as we had in the old days of the BCCS when members of a certain racial group were not allowed "above" the car deck? But what the heck can you expect when you put a 'good old boy' at the helm?

Allan see how Lynn answers to a question and or remarks, you could learn a great deal by her example, she never hid around cliches, insults,or continuly evading questions by answering with questions,which is what you do,(wood burns), what book of knowledge did you research in order to come up that, Lynn I can respect,you your still a nimrod,say hi to mommy and daddy for me will ya.

I seem to wonder where the voice for reason went in this province. Perhap, we mice have to look at the fact we keep on electing cats to look after us. Perhap we should be taking care of ourselves at the voting polls. Pick the ones who will use their voice to represent you, not the party policy. Party policy is where the voice of mice seems to get lost.

I think allan's question was a good one...his suggestion was that a wooden boat would also burn and probably much more rapidly. I guess almost all substances in the presence of fire are at the risk of burning which I think was his point. Fire on any vessel made of any substance is always a serious threat. Good night, sweet dreams to all.

And the Age of Entitlement continues in BC....the socialists in this province will not be satisfied until the gov't takes us from cradle to grave, supplying everything, and protecting us from any sort of reality. You lefty pinkos should wake up and realize the good shape this province is in, and stop being so bloody selfish because the gov't isn't wiping your butts and giving you everything for free. NDP and Liberals aside - this province is doing GREAT because we have all sacrificed - it's about the good of this province, not one person's special interest. YOU are responsible for your well being, NOT the gov't, me, or the guy across the street. It's YOU. All this complaining about a separate area on ferries that you can CHOOSE to pay for or not use - WHO CARES? It's a pay service, fares won't go up. We all want better fares and improved service. But face it - the ship is not going any faster, nothing gets cheaper these days, and you're dealing with a major infrastructure, involving lots of variables - you can only streamline it so much! Get over it already! I maintain that it sounds like you people travel on the bloody things once a year, and to you it's this happy little tour boat to watch whales from. Wake up!

C-gull, did someone clip your wings or something? I think I asked you a pretty simple question in response to your cynical reply to lynn on 1/23/05-15:32pm. I do agree, Lynn responded more pleasently to you, perhaps because she is far more patient of your inanities than I. She mentioned that there were options other than giving the ferries away as the Liberals did. You came back telling the world that aluminum boats are a major fire hazard and certainly suggesting that "her friend of a friend", as you put it, is out to lunch. Now I'm not a boat builder, but I've burned my hands a number of time around the old campfire confirming the relative ease of igniting wood. Sometimes I've even used an aluminum poker or rod to stir the flames. About the biggest concern I've come across is the need to grab the aluminum rod by the cool end. I asked you about the fire properties of wood given that I'm of the understanding it was the material of choice for boats until the last century. Please correct me if I've misread history. That you later acknowleded to Lynn you were not even aware of marine grade aluminum, which has been used for years in the manufacture of boats, really doesn't shore up your logic or your cynical line of questioning, does it? And speaking of cynicism, I would encourage anyone interested, to go back in this thread and read C-gull's input.

Bang on Cap't Bligh, your 100% correct, Im going to add on my two-bits later today, unlike many of the the cadilac socialist on this thread I have to go to work.

Remember when Captain Bligh said to Fletcher Christian: "They respect but one law, the law of fear. I expect you to carry out whatever orders I give, whenever I give them." With an attitude like that, no wonder Fletcher and the lads sent him on a little private voyage. Our modern-day Bligh seems to be cut from the same cloth, so, for him, fare for car and driver will now be $1,000. $50 for coffee and croissants in the new neo-con, anti-pinko section! Oh, and somebody give C-Gull a medal for going to work!

Nicely summed up, allan. The cynical line of questioning was more about discrediting than a quest for real information no doubt. Fire ladders are even made of aluminum, as well as some fire trucks.

Anyway, aluminum is not my life but those like Capt. Bligh should read Nelle Maxey's piece where it becomes quite obvious that in this reckless giveaway of BC Ferries, this so-called public-private pose that is all pretense, (well, let's just say that public control of this asset has vanished except when it comes to our ability to pay, pay, and pay again to prop up private business)...that it is the public ( the taxpayers) paying more and more, both in increased subsidies and in increased liability for defaults in service. In Nelle's piece it is quite obvious who is making the profits and who is paying for them.

Who is BC Ferries really benefiting now? Hopefully, some of the good questions Nelle Maxey is asking (re: increasing fares and subsidies... and the Return Of the Fast Ferries to our coastline courtesy of the Washington Group) will be investigated by some fine reporter like Tom Sandborn.

This elite service for the rich and luxurious upper class snobs will be available for the wealthy price of $7. Wow, sounds incredibly two tiered, doesn't it? $7. That should be enough to keep out the pinkos, hey Sam? I mean, who else would want to have internet access and read a few different papers, and be able to afford $7 other than rich industrialists and the upper class. Whatever. Get a life lefties, it sounds to me like this is truly a non-issue. Check out the story at this link http://www.canada.com/vancouver/story.html?id=a987b650-36e0-4 d98-992a-6ff709dbf8ec

ALLAN--LYNNI must be in the presence of geniuses, Allan knows wood burns,flesh burns,pick up the hot end of a hot poker it hurts, amazing stuff and Lynn knows that firemen use aluminum ladders and that some fire trucks are made of aluminum truly amazing stuff,thanks for shareing this wealth of information,say have you two heard of marine grade aluminum, I know I thanked you for having enlighten me about this wounderful metal but hay you sounded so sincere and knowledgeable that I wasn't about to pop your balloon and desireing more input from Allan Enstein which I knew would be forth comeing I had purposely omitted the follwing information, if any one in the world would have access to and be utilizing CUTTING EDGE MARINE GRADE ALUMINUM it would be the US-NAVY , these are only two examples of useing Aluminum in ships, there are also others.

IN 1975 USS BELKNAP an aluminum ship collided with USS JOHN F.KENNEDY a major fire broke on the BELKNAP that melted most of its superstructure. In 1991 USS PRINCETON detonated an Italian made MRP Acoustic mine under the ship's quarterdeck. The blast detonated another mine three-hundred yards off the starboard beam. A six-inch crack opened in the Princeton's ALUMINUM superstructure running up one side and down the other. More than 10% of the superstructure separated from the main deck. So as you can see ALLAN NIMROD it is not I that has told the world about the unsafe use of ALUMINUM on ships but the USA who have had first hand experince with it did. ALLAN AND LYNN DUMB+DUMBER

C-gull, please come in out of the rain. You've obviously rusted something under your head feathers. Those explosive details you managed to cobble together all by yourself about aluminum is interesting, but you didn't tell us how or if the "six-inch crack" in the Princeton's superstructure caught fire. If you are going to beat us over the head with your superior research on metal combustion (you sly guy), don't drag in metal fatigue as a fire issue. Now, you might even be correct about the USS Belknap's fiery demise in 1975, but that is 30 years ago. Perhaps you might ask a metallurgist if their haven't been any advances addressing the potential fire dangers of metal over the past three decades. Oh, and that little ploy in your post yesterday, about having to go to work when you were really sneaking off to your research lab, threw both lynn and I off. I thought I had more time to warn you about the dangers of wood fires. But to sum up, you've told us about one fire that occurred 30 years ago without even telling us what kind of cargo the ship was carrying when it burned. Poor research. And next time, please consult a dictionary before you try to insult me with names such as "NIMROD". It really blows your case.

C-gull, you are truly a lark. I think what caused the destruction to the USS Princeton was the two Italian made acoustic mines that detonated under the ship's quarterdeck and near the starboard beam. All the fast ferries have to do is avoid "the proliferation" of Italian made MRP acoustic mines planted on the BC Coast!

A number of fast ferries have a Hi-Fog water mist fire protection system ( water-filled pipe work) to protect accomodation spaces, engine rooms and other machinery spaces as well as car decks. The Hi-Fog system has 100% pumping redundancy using two lightweight SPU pump units to protect the whole vessel - all public spaces, service areas, stores, car decks and machinery spaces.

Yes Bligh, we too can read, and we know the proposed charge is $7. You might also wish to check the poll on Canada.com where about 56 percent are voting against the notion of a user-pay lounge. We're just having a little fun with your hilarious anti-Socialist rant. All this hurling abuse ("get a life, lefties") doesn't contribute anything to the discussion. Actually, I think the BC Ferries were a disaster as a crown corporation, and Glen Clark's fast ferries were an abysmal waste of taxpayer dollars. In point of fact, I travel on the system way more than once a year, don't think it's a "happy little tour boat to watch whales from" and don't believe it's the government's responsibility to wipe our butts from cradle to grave and give us everything for free. I did laugh at your "it's a pay service, fares won't go up" line! To give credit where credit is due, I think BC Ferries have made a lot of good improvements, but just because I, and others, think a user-pay lounge isn't such a great idea doesn't automatically make us raving pinkos.

That's great! More room and croissants for us up in "the lounge"! I wouldn't say you guys are "raving" pinkos, maybe foaming would be more appropriate. Regardless, I agree with you here. What my question is from the start, WHY is it such a big deal? Who cares? You think it's a dumb idea, then DON'T USE IT! Some people would like to have the service. Why does it have to turn into a gov't, hate the rich, bashing session? That has nothing to do with it! But it doesn't matter, it looks like BC Ferries is going with the idea, so I don't have to try to convince anyone, I can just lounge in luxury.

ALLAN-LYNN lets cut to the chase, no amount of dialog or discussing will alter your viewes on the fast cats, the NDPers could have carved them out of big thurds,you guys would still state not only do they look great but they also smell great,sure they created many good paying jobs to build the cats,but who really made the big bucks. Now we have NELLE MAXEY-PAD putting her spin on the Washington group. Who gives a rats ass what they do with those boats THEY OWN THEM to put it bluntly NELLE MAXEY-PAD its none of your business what they do or don't do with those boats

Oh, well, what a GOOD thing you removed that earlier disrespectful post, who does he think hiis, thrashing a rightwinger like that, and so EASILY. too...will some one please mail the editor GONADS for his birthday...

C-gull, haven't you been trashed enough yet? Now you're going to beat up on Nelle, because she has better information than you? You had best do your homework more thoroughly then as she has you hands down on the details department. Trust me on that one.

See -"gull'd", your arguments approach such a velocity, such a medleyed grace of wit, precision, and the Bon motte juste, that I fear I can scarce contain my enthusiasm, my appreciation but I will try, oh yes there's one word, I knew I could find it, here it is: DDDDDDDUUUUUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! Oh decrepit avian, if nature ABHORS A VACUUM, then just IMAGINE, how she feels about YOU...

ALLAN what max-pad states in regards to the cats lacks merit, due to the simple fact that they no longer belong to the gov't, therefore being under the private owner ship of the washington group, diaqualifies her from any opinions,the washington group can do with them as they see fit, the cats are long gone, get over it,as for factual what I stated about the american ships thats factual, what she stated about the cats, the washington group , the corporation etc,etc,to be blunt about it, she's blowing smoke rings out of her arse, as far as Im concerned.

looks like old binny (jean-binnete) is back to name calling in his attempts to bully and intimidate like a little kid in a playground when once again he fails to win a reasonable discussion!! Binny=sh!thawk LOL!!! Sorry folks couldn't resist!

binny what do you know about aluminum, are you saying it is combustible? Have you ever seen steel burn, no but the coatings used to minimise rust will burn and a lot of steel ships do burn so what is your point?

DDDDDDDDDDDDDUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

MR GULLED, you have AT LAST EXPRESSED your opinion in an accurate and succinct manner. Now, go play in the traffic and leave the discussion to MATURE and ADULT sensibilities...thank you, sonny, there's a good little dimwitted, two faced reactionary cowardly moron, who likes to insult women...enjoy your $5000/year car insurance, should Campbell get reelected, lackwit!!

FLY-SHIT its not should Campbell get reelected, its he will get reelected ,you and your NDP-BCGEU extended family had better book passage on the next gray-dog to that frozen barren NDP bastion called MOOSE-JAW, watch out the door doesn't slam you in the ass on your way out,dog breath

binny old boy oops excuse me, sh!thawk you certainly are vitriolic in your rhetoric, personally I don't really care if gordo gets elected again as long as he has a minority government, I want democracy in this Province! Once we have an official opposition party I suspect there will be a lot of light shed on deals made in secret behind closed doors! gordo does not deserve to be re-elected but the asper media will certainly do everything they can to keep him in power! Once again binny are you saying aluminum is combustible and what is your point about the u.s. warships? All ships can burn, I don't think aluminum is a good metal to build warships with period it is to soft, very expensive to purchase and build, it is excellent for ships like ferries fishing boats pleasure craft, herring skiffs and packers where maintenance costs are significantly lower and they will last long enough to give owners a return on their investment! They don't rust, Electrolysis is a problem easily prevented! The FastCat projects started a lot of small industries, trades people who learned how to work with Aluminum went out on their own and now employ others building pleasure craft bumpers job boxes truck liners etc!

Have a look at the recent postings here and decide for yourselves who exactly is "foaming". What prompted all this incoherent raving and name-calling is beyond me, but it certainly wasn't Tom Sandborn's excellent article. Would it kill you to try and stick to the topic, people? Jeez. Like a bunch of two-year olds.

Sam, if the rightwing mouthbreathers on the Tyee are not slapped down, they simply take over the whole thread, squatting toadlike upon it, a la jean binette, spewing out insults, WHICH ARE NOT EVEN CLEVER, while contributing nothing but the same DIM witted and shopworn rightwing lies and propaganda. Note that leftwing posters, even at their most vitriolic almost always construct logical and COHERENT arguments. There is lots of room on every thread, for the reasonable. COME ARMED WITH DISRESPECT -EXPECT TO BE DISRESPECTED TEN TIMES OVER.

FLY- point out the the right wing lies and proaganda,your a little more than confused on that subject,but than you comi-pinkos are notorious for blaming your screw ups on everyone but yourselves, thats also is a fact! now run along and look after your maggots.

"Proaganda"? "Comi-pinkos"? Fly makes a valid point. C-Gull, you had better run along and look after your spelling! And, what in the hell is this about maggots? Is that supposed to be some kind of an insult? Are you in Grade Three or something?

FLY (flies) maggot,it's quite clear your not the brightest bolt in the box, don't concern yourself about my spelling, typo errors,that was a cheap NDP diversion on your part, DICK where are the facts I requested. Are you in grade three,Yikes, you give me far to much credit, DICK come on, thats not your real name is it, gosh thats even funnier than Maxi, ever notice all the funny and unusual names NDPers have,Do you thinkDICK thats to sort us normal folks out from you NDPers, eh.

binny is quite typical of gordo and his supporters in my opinion!

ALL RIGHT you NDPers,now you have me feeling really badly about what I've said about you, so in order to make up to you, Im going to get in touch with BC Ferries CEO David Hauna and have you all moved from steerage and located to where you all deserve be,on the POOP DECK

Duty calls, Im leaving ,I fully realize that you NDPers will sorely miss me, as well my girl friends brother who owns this computer is concerned that it may be getting corrupted, no not from me, but by the NDP entries, so long you all, I've had a great time with you. PS I asked the computer owner to watch for me what is being said in my absence.

I didn't know dogs owned computers, c-gulled! So you HAVE successfully crossed the SPECIES BARRIER in interpersonal and sexual relations!! I had suspected as much, perhaps you can run your offspring as BC liberal mlas...I'd heard the expression, "the bride was a dog" before, but NEVER before had occasion to take the phrase literally.... Is the new arrival expected to bark, or squawk, or both?????