Frank, you're quite right. There is no perfect candidate, in this contest or any other. I found Beers column obnoxious because it was so silly and so brazenly at odds with the facts. His claim that Kerry was to blame for the way in which his and Bush's previous military and war service played out is not a matter of opinion, it's so far at variance with what happened that its dishonest. The CBC documents fiasco ruined the whole comparison of records that Kerry and the Democrats were counting on. I am sure that was a Rove manipulation, and that exposing that bit of handiwork will be the biggest journalist project in America for 2005. Whether Beers likes it or not, John Kerry will be around for the next four years as a Senator, and will have lots to say everytime something needs to be said.

As a democrat/independent who worked on the Kerry campaign here in Virginia, the loss of this election has been heartbreaking, but I feel we gave it our all and did the best we could. I am still licking my wounds and am ashamed to be an American. Being surrounded by 51% of people filled with hate, fear, greed and ignorance is not a good feeling - and certainly not acceptable. While yesterday was spent in shock, today was spent pouring over the CIC site and planning for a permanent move to BC. Though we're not sure exactly where to start as we head out on this journey I do know that America is no longer my home, democracy here is dead... The word expatriate had never crossed my mind, till today.

I never understood why the Democrats never asked Bush during the debate about the 7 minutes reading "My Pet Goat" after the World Trade Centre was hit. The Repubicans made up lies about Kerry(the swift boat vets) but the Democrats had the goods on Bush and didn't use them.

Democracy in the US isn't dead, intelligence is. Anyone who was truly informed and not caught up in patriotic nonsense could clearly see that Kerry represented the lesser of two evils. Oh shit...wait a sec...maybe being the lesser of two evils wasn't enough to throw out a Texas cowboy who says nucular. If our prime minister couldn't pronounce nuclear we'd collectively laugh him/her off of parliament hill.

There are more problems than an intellectual void and a dying democracy in the US however. I have a real problem with presidents and would-be presidents who say things like "I (we) will hunt down the terrorists and kill them" and "God bless America". Seeing and hearing a world leader talking about killing someone, even the most vile and cowardly type of human being, is very offensive to my Canadian sensibilities. As well we did away with religion and politics many eons ago, imagine a Canadian would-be PM talking about his faith in god during a campaign a la Doris (Stockwell) Day.

So you wanna come to Canada? Fine just be ready to accept a social democracy where we support the legalization of marijuana and a recognition of gay marriage. We would never support candidates who are so wrapped up in religion nor would we ever put up with our leaders talking of killing.

It amazes me that more people don't talk about these leaders and their references to killing terrorists, it made me angry everytime they said it.

How did Yeats put it? "The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity."

That's a good point Tha Geek, I had the same kind of reaction to "the hunting down and killing of terrorists", especially disappointing when Kerry said it after Osama's`photo-op. In Canada, we would have said the challenge would be to end terrorism - we would never presume to have sovereignty over the international courts with that kind of posse mentality.. though to be honest I can hear that coming from Stephen Harper. And don't say the Canadian approach is a wimpy one because it is ironic that the less religion intrudes in the state, the more evidential is the respect for human life and human dignity.

As for "the best candidate", well that's the problem isn't it -it's all about mechanics, image, and advertising - about our own insecurity to be ourselves and how we constantly cast about to find salvation in someone else.

Ms Breton, Canada has a shrinking population without immigration. I hope Immigration Canada welcomes you. Political refugees don't seem to have a problem you may want to try that category :)

Shoot, geek. I just got a posting from the Calgary Professional Arts Alliance bulletin board promoting a play about gays trying to get married in Alberta and running up against the notwithstanding clause which Klein is invoking there. On Tyee (last month, I think), there was another article about exactly how intolerant some Canadians are to the idea of decriminalizing marijiuana. So while I appreciate where you're coming from, I wish we really were as Snow-White and Daisy-Fresh as you paint us out to be. Not only that, but the intolerance to gay marriage isn't just an Alberta-thing. I'm pretty sure that Reform MP Jim Gouk wouldn't have beaten out NDP Alex Atamanenko had it not been for the way a good many Canadians have been indoctrinated to perceive homosexuality as unnatural.

You're welcome here, Deb, especially to the Tyee community, but be forewarned: We're fighting the same parochial forces as you are in the States. This is a global battle.

I posted here on The Tyee some weeks ago that I rather expected that the DNC weren't all that interested in winning this one and that in the long term it would probably be better for the US's survival to elect Bush anyway. As much as it deeply saddened me to watch Kerry's defeat I think it really is appropriate that the repugnican's be forced to confront the scope of the mess they've made and will yet make. A democratic administration without a near consensus mandate and without a very solid majority of at least one of the Houses, preferably both, would be utterly hamstrung by the media and the rabid dogs of the right. Impossible to deliver on anything and 4 years later the repugs would be running on "see, we told you they were impotent". As Butch and Sundance once did, off the cliff is the only survival option.

Yeah I know all that "Barking Mad" but I was just rambling off. In fact though I think we are moving in a different direction than our neighbours down South on the issues of weed and gay marriage. I know were far from perfect and have much intolerance but I still think that we are years ahead on those fronts.

I wish there was something I could say that would hearten you to stay where you are, Dana, and continue to build your community. If the secret police start knocking on your doors, it's not as though our border is going to stop them, is it? Not with our premier at the helm. So you might as well just stand in your light. Almost half your country feels exactly the way you do. Most of the western world thinks the way you do. That's a lot of people with whom you have something very important in common.

Cheers, geek.

This piece articulated very well the feeling I had throughout the US election: is John Kerry the best the Democrats could come up with? By saying this I'm in no way saying that John Kerry is not a worthy politician. I just think he was the wrong man at the wrong time, as I didn't think he as a candidate resonated well with most of the US population. And Deb, as an expat myself who is now a very proud Canadian, all I can say is while Canada is not the "perfect" place to live, it's sure one of the very best.

Dana, of all of the conspiracy theories making the rounds, the idea that the DNC saw this election as a throwaway makes the most sense. Most of the pros were on the sidelines. Kerry himself was not particularily well liked inside the Democratic establishment. For Hillary to have her shot, someone had to go down this time. He did.

I think the "Dems lost on purpose" theory is baseless, preposterous nonsense. (Hillary isn't all-that well-loved within the party either, Jay).

But when I look at Kerry, I really can't blame others for entertaining conspiracy. He was an awful, awful choice.

Tom Cruise for President, 2008.

Isn't this "Hillary in '08" talk a tad optimistic? If the bulk of Americans will not like a guy because he has a priveleged, outspoken woman for a wife (among other reasons), will they want a priveleged, outspoken woman in the White House?

Are there any lessons in all this for bc/canadian ndp -their union allies, their strategists, their chosen leadership, their vision or lack thereof? Can the BC Fiberals, allied as they are with big business & big media, just like the Republicans are in the US, draw any conclusions to widen their base of support? ...if the conclusion is ...is that the US electorate is essentially 'not too bright' and 'fear/security motivated"..can that same conclusion be said of the Canadian electorate, if so, what are the implications for political strategy within BC/Canada?

Good point, Mr. Tupper.

Republicans would brand Hillary as a godless, family-hating, foetus aborting, gun hating, fag loving *FEMINIST* on the first second of the first day of her campaign, just as as Kerry was branded as a (god forbid) *MASSACHUSETTS LIBERAL*.

If the Dems wanna win, they're gonna have to recruit Hanks and Cruise.

Hillary Vs. The Governator in 08, doesn't that kind of sound, or seem, like the summer's past movie of Alien Vs. Predator. Not sure who's which though.

After Tuesday, I'd embrace a Schwarzenegger '08 campaign without the least hint of irony (well, maybe a little)...

Check it: He's gay poitive, pro-choice, and strong on the environment.

That all looks really good when you stand him next to Bush.

Just to play Devil's advocate, what if Jeb Bush runs in 2008 with Guiliani as his VP. I say the Blue states should tell the Red states they're kicked off the public handouts.

Many thanks to all your responses, Frank, we may try that route of political refugee. Where we live, here in Virginia as of June 2004, they passed a bill (751) that makes any gay relationship and it's legal documents illegal. Our living wills and durable power of attorney papers locked in our safe are no longer valid. So we are essentially paying 40K in taxes for 'rights' not enjoyed. For us, it's not so much a question of 'marriage' rights, it's a question of BASIC rights. Also, we are paying taxes for a war we don't believe in. Brenner, I have to agree with you that Kerry was not the right man at the right time, but a vote for him was a vote AGAINST Bush, we supported Kerry because he was the lesser of two evils. My partner and I both took offense and cringed at some of the things Kerry said (hunt them down and kill them), we are very much live and let live folks - vegetarian granola girls - truth be told. Bottom line I think, is that with the >51% of the people here who are ignorant and unenlightened, it wouldn't have mattered if it was Bush or someone other candidate like Jeb or Guiliani. The 'theocracy' mentality would have prevailed no matter who the candidate was. I believe that it's time to put down the bible and pick up the bill of rights, unfortunately being peaceful and mindful are not conducive to living here. Brenner, if you or anyone has any information on immigating to Canada, would you be willing to PLEASE share it with us... We have furballs (kitties) so it's not as easy as just putting everything in storage. We want to do this right and want to become citizens, but what about the social security$ (hah, if it's even there in 22 years) and 401K???. I'm really sorry I got off topic here - I haven't had my morning cup of Java/Tea. Thank you for any help and for listening to me vent...

Well, since you put it like that:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/

Deb, you can't "just pick up and go" in any event. There's a process to go through with Immigration Canada that takes about a year. Essentially it's a line up with qualifications. Look here for more information.

Hillary is not going to be the candidate in '08. The '08 candidate needs to be a guy from a red state with an easy grin, a gun rack in his pickup, a cross burned into his forehead, a limited vocabulary and the skin of a crocodile.

Thanks for the link Barking Mad, got it. I am up for fighting the same parochial battle up there, but at least I wouldn't be surrounded by 59mil people with ignorance and hate in their heart. Dana thank you also! ARGH.. the thought of the next candidate is just as depressing - I'm sure it will be that same mentality that you describe - and with 'more of the same' for the 'new addition(s)' to the supreme court... It won't affect me personally, because I won't be here, but it will be sad for the global community and the other 1/2 of the 'enlightened' folks in the US. Kindest thanks for the links and the good word both of you.

The best thing about Canada, Deb, and I'm not sure how meaningful it is, but we use paper ballots which can be counted and recounted :)

The "best candidate" may win the key to the Oval Office or the Prime Minister's Residence but if we are really interested in change at some point we have to move past that and make the best candidate one that continues to function with intelligence and wisdom the day after, and on into the years after, he or she wins the Holy Grail of politics. If I had to choose the next Democratic candidate I'd choose John Edwards because he grew up with the values the left believes in, he knows what struggle means and he enjoys the struggle and debate of fighting for what he believes in.

As to the new approach the left must take, William Saletan above makes a good point, similar to the thought of linguist George Lakoff - the left will have to learn how to frame it's language to counter the moralistic framing of language by the right. For example, instead of saying "same-sex marriage", you frame it as "the right to marry"... thus defending the freedom and the right of each individual to marry whom they want.

Deb and Dana, there's a good commentary on Canadian immigration in Salon.com's War Room -- just scroll down a few newsitems.

I think that the Prospect and the Slate exerpts get to the core of how the Democrats lost the election. What people look for in a leader is vision. Policy is what happens behind the scenes. Bush talked vision (myopic as it was), and Kerry talked policy. In a world where politicians are awarded 4-second sound bytes, policy simply cannot cut it. /c

Psssst...Barkin' mad canine...I'm a Canadian, don't need no steenkin' eeemigrayshun.

Barking mad, great article at salon, great site too - THANKS! Breathing a major breath of fresh air after reading that article - I'm ready... Anyone need a web designer, graphics design person or woodturner, I'm your gal! thedebs.com

Q: How many years has it been since the United States elected a Yankee Democrat president? A: 44 (JFK) If the Democrats hope to win the 2008 presidential election, they should start looking now for a good ol' boy (and I mean BOY) who can hide his IQ under his NASCAR cap. Yeeeeehaaaaaa!

Thanks, I'll take that as a vote for 2008! Yeeeeeehaaawwwww!!!

Hey Frank paper ballots are VERY important, especially after the latest Ohio disclosure, hmmmm 3k + votes for w, in a precinct of only 400 or so voters. So, having paper ballots will be a blessing. Cannot wait to get their and vote (after 3 years to become a citizen that is). Have you seen the latest: blackboxvoting.org ???? Did I mention I can't wait to get to BC :)

Deb, I am so glad you mentioned blackboxvoting.org because that is the whole problem and how American politics get stolen. Solution - the one and only, this being a paper ballot (good for recounts, close election and early ballots count).<<>>I fervently, passionately, revolution if computer voting trys to come to my country or province (B.C.). PLEASE CANADIAN CITIZENS do not let our governments go that way.<<>>Paperless ballots that have no trail (confirmation) are truly easily lost votes. All those professional Hackers out there - $hit!!

Although I too am very leery of blackbox voting there are ways to make the contained information non-refutable. It just depends on how much effort a government is willing to put into creating a hardened unbreakable voting system. Of course every computer system may be cracked but there are many ways to lock down information which would make tampering virtually impossible. In fact I would go so far as to say that you could make an electronic voting system which would be harder to rig than forging paper ballots.

To bring us back to the Democrats, I think they have two bad choices open to them.

Dear Geek when you say it just depends on how much effort the government is willing to put into creating a hardened unbreakable voting system, I want to weep. In the U.S. the people who run the election operation are party partisans, not unbiased, arms-length government bodies like in Canada. The fiasco of Florida 2001 happened because the woman in charge of elections was a Republican working for the Bush team. It was/is no secret, and people there don't seem to have a problem with it. The woman (can't bring her name to mind just now) won re-election last Tuesday.

These people run the whole show. The show is based on computer systems owned by a couple of companies. Their owners/CEOs just happen to be major Republican contributors and benefactors. There were numerous irregularities, frauds and gross errors documented in e2001, and other elections prior to e2004. This is no issue of how willing or unwilling the government is to put controls in place -- they already have put controls in place, it's just skewed in their favour. All those TV images of people monitoring the vote "count" from behind glass walls just stunned me -- when are people going to get it? What do they think they're going to see -- 1s and 0s flicking by at warp factor speed?

I realize the "common man" in some dusty Texas town probably doesn't get computer programming, but surely what's left of Silicon Valley must.

The "hackers" are sitting at the table with BUSHBABY. They don't need to hack, they already own the vote manufacturing factory.

Dear Americans: fix the corrupted computerized voting mess first before you even think about which magnetic personality might win the hearts and minds of the religious right. Even if Jesus Christ was the next Democratic candidate, BUSHCO would still win. They hold all the cards, and then some. Don't have any idea how you might change this though, they have a strangle-hold on your country. Best wishes.

I still say that even with a paper ballot Kerry would have lost. Are you telling me the results would have been different? Yeah your right blame it on a cracked voting system not a shitty candidate.

Eventually we will have electronic ballots it just makes sense. Don't give me this crap about weeping because I am not sticking up for the US system, I'm only saying that it is possible to have a highly efficient and totally secure voting system based on computers. People are so reactionary to things like digital identification and electronic voting systems and many people make totally unsubstantiated claims about hacking etc. You may be right that the US system is rotten to the core although I'm a little skeptical of that claim, after all didn't the same system bring in Clinton?

Please remember I am not endorsing the US system I'm only trying to make the case that it is possible and likely that some entity will create a worthy electronic ballot system.

If all those progressive Americans immigrate to Canada, wouldn't this ensure Republican rule in perpetuity? Even without mass emigration, the way things are going you might find the Democratic candidate in 2008 supporting capital punishment and re-visiting Roe v Wade--in addition to being against same sex marriage. And who knows what he/she might say about national security if you attract all the UN supporters to Canada, where their votes would be wasted in any case.

Once many of the progressive Americans find out that moving to Canada (or anywhere else for that matter) isn't something that can be done impulsively but has to be done deliberately and with significant forethought and planning and that it takes more time than they think I expect very, very few will follow through.

The other side of the coin for me in this is their simple assumption that other countries would be particularly pleased to absorb them. With all due respect to American citizens who truly do want to escape, which I completely understand, there is also an cloyingly superior undercurrent to much of the emigrate to freedom chatter coming out of various quarters. Consider this pice from Philly reprinted in The Star.

David Beers is wrong on this one. John Kerry was a strong candidate, a war veteran with a heroic record, he was on the right side of the Vietnam dissent, had a centre-ist voting record, and he was articulate on domestic and international issues. During the debates, he made Bush look like a fool. Even in places like Texas, he garnered nearly half the vote. In states like Pennsylvania, he blew Bush out of the water. Bottom line is, this election was decided by religious fundamentalists and terrorism-fearing suburbanites, who would have voted for "indiscriminate force" versus "internationalism" no matter who the candidate. I wasn't sold on John Kerry when he won the nomination either, but during the campaign, I came to respect his policies, his history, and yes, his character. It's been said before, but what a shame for Kerry and for the US public to not have him as president. Instead, they get the candidate who read "My Pet Goat" for 7 minutes while both WTC buildings were in flames.

Dana could you re-link that article, it doesn't seem to work for me. Thanks.

Deb Breton, we wish you and all progressive Americans safe passage to Canada, our doors are always open. We were here for Vietnam and are still here if the legal ways do not pan out. I heard a news report today that immigration Canada has 100,000 requests this week compared to a regular 20,000 a week. Anyway you seen very web savvy so you probably know that Vancouver has a very large gay community and is 49% non white, we had the largest peace protest in the country(50,000 plus in Vancouver) and protest from coast to coast. I'm also proud to admit Victoria BC is the only city in the world that the G8 summit was cancelled due to protest concerns. BC politics like the US are very divisive, we have a right wing neo con in power now and is up for re election next May, but unlike Kerry the BC NDP is way further to the left in my opion. OK enough basic facts.... The good news is that all the progressive states fell democrat and the others were very close splits, I feel the democrats need a running mate who is a good old boy . Every time the replicans make a moral comment have him just agree etc, take religion out of it. That bit of confusion will swing some voters. The other point is to have a Democrat who is more critical and less careful in what he says.. Kerry should have pounded home the point a man of faith does not outsource 1000's of jobs leaving "Middle America" holding the bag . A moral man does not cut funding to the poor for the benefit of the rich.. The democrats need a simple message , Most Americans probably seen no difference between the two so why fix it. Ask the president publicly why he dishonored the dead by not even attending one funeral. You know if you can't show America how immoral Bush is you have problems. And one more thing, most of this is a show, let’s make collations and start the political process from the ground up. See the Movie THE TAKE, it has good ideas on how to rebuild. And get to know your neibours and organize groups etc, You don't get much respect when you visit once every 4 years.

Canada, deliver us from King George HOWARD GENSLER Adopt us, O Canada!

As a blue-red split continues in the Divided States of America, we note that every blue state is contiguous to Canada or to another blue state that is contiguous to Canada, except Hawaii — that's not contiguous to anything but a lot of blue water that's contiguous to Canada.

Therefore, we've got an idea. How about a sort of second American Revolution, Canada, in which you annex all the blue states, liberate us from King George, and thus become the world's sole superpower.

What Canada Gets: higher education. All eight Ivy League universities, Stanford, U. Chicago and Northwestern all just lowered their admissions standards for the kids from Saskatchewan.

Serious sports: Forget the Super Bowl. With the Eagles, Patriots, Steelers, Jets, Vikings and Packers, the Grey Cup is where it's at.

You get the Expos back as they're now in D.C. But who needs the Expos when you've got the Red Sox, Yankees, Twins, Mariners, Giants, Dodgers, Angels, Padres, Phillies and Pirates. The Raptors are Canada's favourite basketball team? We don't think so. What about Flyers-Maple Leafs? Flyers-Canadiens? Settle the strike and drop the puck.

Warm-weather vacations: Sun yourselves whenever you want in Southern California or Hawaii at Canada's beautiful beaches.

The cultural arts: Tourists will love Canada's museums including the Smithsonian, the Museum of Natural History and the Philadelphia Museum of Art.

The entertainment industry: You already love our movies and TV shows more than those red-staters and now when that rare production shoots in California or New York instead of Vancouver or Toronto, you still get credit for the jobs and the tax revenue.

The automobile industry: Ohio can keep its Honda plant. GMs, Fords and Chryslers are made in Canada.

The biotech industry: With many of the world's top biotech firms located in Massachusetts, New York, Washington and California, it's likely that Canadian scientists will cure cancer and heart disease within the next 50 years.

The computer industry: That's right, we keep Microsoft, Apple, Hewlett-Packard and Silicon Valley. "America" gets Dell.

A burgeoning tourist industry: You've now got a lot more to sell than Toronto, the Cabot Trail and the glaciers in Banff. Even red-staters love to visit Atlantic City, the Liberty Bell, Maui, the Space Needle and Disneyland.

Fresher produce: Canada, the artichoke, garlic and strawberry capital of the world. And Canadian wines just got a whole lot tastier.

Arnold Schwarzenegger: He can't be president but he'd make a swell Canadian premier.

What the Red-Staters get: Exactly what they want.

What Blue-Staters get: Canadian citizenship: And we don't even have to move.

O, Canada: A national anthem that's much easier to sing than The Star Spangled Banner.

Free flu shots. (Not to mention free health care.)

You don't like our "values," red-staters, you've got your wish — we're outta here. But remember, the next time you want to see a Broadway show, visit wine country, Hawaii or the birthplace of liberty, don't just bring your Visa card, bring your visa.

You're in Canada now. And we're tightening our borders.

Don't delay, Canada. This offer expires in four years.

Not only would an exodus ensure continuing Republican dominance, as Norman Spector notes, but I would hate to see Canada become home to a massive influx of people who didn't stay in their country and belly up when their convictions were put to the test. It would be bad for both countries. I think once the wave of initial disappointment has passed most Americans will realize that it's their country, right or wrong (so to speak), and they'll stay on and fight. The exception might be gays who live in States with anti-marriage constitutional amendaments, who are being overtly oppressed. But even that battle, though it may be disheartening to have to fight, is far from unwinnable.

It amazes me that so many commentators are treating the recent US election as though it was some stellar example of the democratic process in action. John Hopkins University in May of this year raised all kinds of warnings about the fragility to a hacker attack on the electronic voting machines and optical scanning machines in this US federal election. I was very surprised with the result last tuesday. But the emerging hard evidence cries out for further investigation. News today of unusual voter turnout in the precincts within Cuyahoaga County, Ohio: Over 29 precincts show voter turnout between 90% and 1,161 %. We have trouble in Canada getting 63% voter turnout. Perhaps the folks in Ohio could let us know how to get 1,161% voter turnout in some of our federal ridings next election? Visit Cuyahoaga County precinct data: http://pages.ivillage.com/americans4america/id20.html In Florida,even more surprising are the changes in votes per party that occurred on November 2nd. Counties using e-touch voting machines in Florida showed an average vote gain of 29% for Republicans and a 23.8% increase for Democrats. However in the Florida counties that used optical scan vote machines showed drastic differences. Republicans gained by 128.45% in counties using optical scan voting machines while Democrats had a -21% loss (yes, that is negative 21%). Some districts in Florida showed gains over 400% while one, Liberty County, gained over 712% for Republicans. For a county-by-county breakdown of this visit: http://ustogether.org/Florida_Election.htm Only in the counties where optical scanning machines by Diebold INC were used in Florida, did the Republicans deliver a voter increase in 27 counties of between 91% and 712%, while the Democrats at the same time were decreasing their voter turnout by 40-70%. And in many of these counties the registered Democrats made up over three-fifths to two-thirds of the voters in the county. In Calhoun County, for example, Republican strength increased by 433% while Democrats lagged from their 2000 tally by some -57%. In Calhoun County the registered Democrats in the county were 59.30% of voters and Registered Republicans made up 25.40% of voters. Expressed in Canadian federal election ridings, this would be like giving an additional 433% turnout to the Green Party in the BC riding of Prince George-Peace River, and discounting the opposition parties by -57%. In this scenario for the next federal election compared to the actual June 2004 recorded vote, the Conservative party would decrease it's turnout from 21,281 to 9,150 (-57%); the Liberal party would decrease it's vote from 4,988 to 2,414 (-57%); the NDP would decrease it's vote from 7,501 to 3,225 (-57%); But the Green Party would increase it's vote tally from 2,073 to 11,049 (+433%). This would enable the Greens to send their first MP to Ottawa. Multiply this effect on 27 counties in Florida and you can begin to see a method in the madness of such a stunning Republican result in Florida. Never mind that over 88,000 more ballots were cast than there are voters in Palm Beach county, Florida. I hope that these kinds of election returns, if something like this happened in Canada, would not spell busineess as usual.

Ray that was a great example of what is going on down here south of the 49th... It is a flawed system to be sure, way too many improprieties, makes one feel that waiting in line for hours to vote - was all for nothing, very disheartening. With repugs controlling the house & senate there's no chance of impeachment or any recourse... I wish I could stay and change things here, but have been campaigning for equal rights most of my life. I'm getting tired, and old, and it feels like life is getting shorter - just want to settle down and ENJOY and LIVE my life. Hey Stuart, moving to Canada has long been on our mind, I think 4 more of w was just the last straw for us. We chose BC because of it's diversity and it's 'live and let live' outlook. I thank you for the warm welcome and can respect that maybe not all Canadians are as accepting, it's certainly not our intention to be burdensome. I am anxious to be in BC amongst that beautiful countryside and wildlife that speaks to our hearts. Dana - thanks for posting that article - much needed laughter!!!!!

I agree with you Ray, the stories of voting problems that have been coming out would normally throw the entire election into disrepute if it was happening somewhere else. I think Americans are more afraid of yelling "the election was fixed" than they are of Dubya.

We're yelling - no one is listening, yet.... http://www.michaelmoore.com/ www.airamericaradio.com http: //72.3.131.10/gallery/104/

Good Post Ray, I refuse to admit that Bush won. I know the voting system is corrupt. I don't Trust these machines. But the fact is life for the vast working poor and so called middle class would not have changed much with a Kerry win, it could be the US or Canada or any other G8 country . Most politicians are front men or gangsters for the elite of America and the corporations , that top 1% of America that takes in 50% of every dollar made. The election process is a farce in general. Yea I hated Bush wanted him to lose but we must see a bigger picture of society and stop waiting for a savior to come and rescue us. The elections with all The grand promises come and go, it should be called the election between special interest of the Defense contractors vs giant bio medical Corporations we vote for. We need to stop the mentality of hoping these elites do the right things for us. We must take back our communities one at a time. The fact is , the most important elections are the local ones that all of us could take a shot at , if we make local laws and band together with like minded people we can shape the Way our communities look. If you have strong communities these outsiders and corporations cannot come in and change things. In short support your local stores and don't support these huge multi nationals, once we can show a model that works we can promote it on a larger scale. Within 15 miles of where I live there is 27 theatres(3 silver cities) and they have bankrupt 3 locally owned theatres, this happened only because our local population feels like its someone else's job to fight for these things. These corporations are working threw your local councils everyday while we watch the Simpson's and how to become a millionaire. And the same local population will line up And support the Silver cities. Get to know your neighbors , make delegations at councils , arrange movie nights and town hall meetings etc. The ruling elite is counting on us being lazy , the Vancouver council has blocked Wal Mart, and made the Home Depot have a limit to its size. In short if our communities have been localized and its working it is almost impossible to change it, Start caring about where you live and get out and talk to folks, not every 4 years on A election campaign. Some strategies. Below, 4. How can I get involved in my community. Talk to the people directly affected by injustices, and to the local activist groups that support them. How are they surviving? How are they resisting? What would it mean and what would it take to stand in solidarity with them? You can look for groups and organizations working on specific issues in your region by checking the posts on the local indymedia site, or by doing a web-search. Get in touch with groups that seem to be doing tangible work. Then go to a couple of their meetings, and find out how you can contribute. Most activists groups are resource-poor, and need help with everything from fundraising to the artwork for their publications, from proofreading their newspaper to helping with logisitics at demonstrations. Build solidarity between local movements by drawing connections between issues that are perceived to be discrete. Draw parallels and make links between the struggles you're involved in locally and similar struggles taking place internationally.

Thanks, Ray, that was a most revealing piece...and isn't it just mind-boggling in it's hypocrisy that that same country, presently bombing Fallejah and it's citizens to bloody mud and dust, has the audacity to say it is doing so in order to facilitate the success of the upcoming election in Iraq. Now that's democracy US style, at work for you...

I do not nor will I ever support George Bush and likely the same can be said for Repub's. I wish Kerry would have won but I take offence to this outright blaming of voting machines. Perhaps the voting machines are rigged but then you would have to believe that all of thempolls are also rigged, because the polls clearly showed that this was a tight race. Also the exit polls on election day showed a very close race. And of course the final result was very close, in fact George Bush mostly won in area's where it was kind of expected, middle America.

I don't necessarily trust the voting machines either but I do have a few comments. I followed various links off the link you posted Ray and here's something I've found:

http://www.equalccw.com/dieboldtestnotes.html#intro

Th is is a totally flawed analysis of the Diebold voting systems, in fact its so flawed that it actually lends credibility to Diebold by making itself appear as a piece of paranoid claptrap. If the voting systems are hacked cracked and rigged than why aren't the Dem's screaming? Is it perhaps that election day was really a battle of computer hackers and that the Dem's hoped that they would control the vote machines at the end of the day? I can assure you that an organization like the Democratic Party has the resources and contacts to perform a highly sophisticated audit of these systems, much more so than someone with a domain name and an axe to grind.

Now as far as hackers go I will tell you a thing or two. Most hackers are very socially responsible and very activist minded, of course there are many that would help a political party for enough money. However most hackers enjoy breaking into systems just to prove that they can do it or as a means of payback. For example, in the past few years various attacks have been launched at the Gestapo-like RIAA and at the open source detractors Microsoft and The SCO Group. I would say if anything that George Bush and the Repub's represent the establishment and many other things that hackers in general have no use for. If the voting machines could have been rigged to elect Cowboy Neal or Hugh J Assman, then I would expect a severe attack of the nerds.

I think that in blaming the results on voting machines is totally missing the point and at the same time perhaps very American-like. After all when you spilled that coffee on your lap it was Mickie D's fault because it was 10 degrees hotter than it should have been. And when the World Trade Center went down it had nothing to do with foreign policy in the middle east, it was the work of religous madmen. So lets look at the results of this election without bringing in some sort of conspiracy theory. If you believe the voting machines were rigged than you believe the polls are rigged and if you believe the polls are rigged than both political parties are also phony. If you believe all of that than you might as well just give up and perhaps turn to anarchy because you don't have a hope in hell of changing anything without taking some pretty serious action and probably violence. And if you believe all of that then moving to Canada is not an option because Paul Martin is a puppet controlled by the same masters as Bush.

Geek, what about the fact that exit polls are way off in swing states but are on the money in heavily Democrat or Repub states? What about the fact of more people voting than exist in a precinct? What about there being big swings against normal patterns in places where voting machines were used?

I don't have enough information to say one way or the other but you have to agree it smells and needs to be looked at. No other western democracy would allow a company to build machines and not provide the source code for peer review and then let the guy that ran that company run for election using those machines. The room for abuse using a closed system is there. Whether it took place or not is really irrelevant. Signs abound that abuse did take place but the fact is, like Ceasar's wife, the voting machines have to be completely above suspicion and they aren't.

Well you may claim that, Frank, but I maintain that the US Dem's are powerful and rich and therefore can or should hire some of the best analysts in the world to look into this. Nevermind all of the rhetoric and heresay on all of the websites out there, anyone can buy a domain name and publish whatever they want. I don't necessarily agree that it smells but I will agree that it should be looked at and examined by the very best people.

As far as the allegation of somebody running who ran the company who built the machine, well that's a different story. Bill Gates owns Microsoft but he may be the last person in the world that I would want to touch my Windows Server. The person you mentioned would need an army of coders and crackers.

Hacking is such a funny issue and so many people don't have a clue what their talking about. Just because some team of computer scientists at MIT can crack something that doesn't make it vulnerable or insecure. There are very few people in the world with the capability to actually hack into systems which are even minimally hardened. As well it takes very little effort to create a data structure which keeps a tight log of all transactions. People refer to the paper trail but often an electronic trail can reveal far more about what has happened.

Frank I would honestly be appreciative of any pages you can link that point out all of these irregularities. I am very interested in this. Thanks

Keith Olbermann on MSNBC has been featuring the story about suspicious voter tabulations in Florida & Ohio the past three days, so is the first mainstream reporter to get this story out. He interviewed a reporter from the Cincinnati daily paper, the Cincinanati Enquirer, who discussed how homeland security barred reporters from witnessing the voting in some of the major minority areas in town, that this was the first time the press was ever kept out of and barred from witnessing the voting. The Sec of State in Ohio says that it was under orders from Bush's Homeland Security chief, who said that these cities in Ohio were under a highly increased threat of terrorism during the election. For this reason, only one entrance was open for the voting in these (largely democratic) areas, and the press was barred from coming in to see the voting, or to have the usual offices in the building they have had in every past year. Olbermann then had Rep. John Conyers on and there are a dozen or so representatives demanding an investigation from the GAO. So it's Chicago-style voting taken to a national level -- the GOP dead vote, the GOP takes away votes from Dems and turned them into Bush votes, and they just add extra votes (for pres, not on the other issues or candidates) to the totals. In Florida where Bush scored big, on the same ballots Democratic measures scored big, such as making a Florida minimum wage $1 above the federal level. In other words, all these people voted for Bush AND voted to pass these Democratic measures, which the GOP had tried to defeat. Congressman Jeff Fisher of the 16th District in Florida has apparently filed a report with the FBi alleging that he knows who some of the people are who he alleges involvement in contributing to the stunning results in several of the Florida counties. Sheldon Dromby or Air America Radio stated yesterday, regardin exit polls (as distinct from advance polling) "As a former C.P.A and auditor, I have used statistical sampling throughout my career with great confidence. With electronic record keeping, it's easy to create a program to falsify the books. But there are ways to uncover that. Auditors have developed statistical ways to cut right through corruption in companies. You don't even need a paper trail. These statistical approaches can be used with almost 100% accuracy to uncover fraud." "There's a huge difference between polling what WILL happen and polling something that has already happened. The reliability of polling something that has already happened is highly reliable vs. predictive polls, like Gallup or Zogby, which is very risky. The reliability can be, not plus or minus 4 percent as we see with predictive poplls, but rather a much more reliable plus or minus one half or one tenth of one percent with exit polls, because those are based on asking people who already voted. I would even say that if the exit polling were done in the key precincts of Florida and Ohio, which it was, then these results should be practically “bullet proof.” " While it may be feasible to have electronic voting machines in an election, to have them provide no paper trail, and to have CEO's such as Warren O'Dell of DIEBOLD INC speak at a republican fundraiser in spring 2004 that he will "deliver Ohio" for Bush, should be a cause for concern. Bottom line: the electoral process needs to be seen to be transparent. The extent of the problems and possible tampering of optical scanning machines in Florida, and extra votes that presidential candidates got in precincts and counties where the total voter turnout exceeded 100% by as much as 1,161% - something that is mathematically impoossible (unless the voters are voting early and often) needs to be examined for voters to have confidence in the system. An example of concerns about e-voting machines and in particular some of the companies that seek to obtain contracts, the Sacremento Bee reported on May 1, 2004 that "California Secretary of State Kevin Shelley decertified every model of electronic voting machine used in the state but left the door open for 10 counties to win approval prior to the November election. Shelley's action is intended to force counties and manufacturers to quickly implement nearly two dozen security measures or risk losing their franchises for the upcoming presidential election. Shelley said doubts about the security and reliability of touch-screen voting have "shaken public confidence." "It is my job, my foremost responsibility, to take all steps necessary to make sure every vote cast in California will be accurately counted," Shelley said. Most of the measures ordered Friday were proposed this week by a state advisory panel. Shelley's sharpest attack was leveled at one manufacturer, Diebold Election Systems, which has installed its controversial TSx system in San Joaquin, Solano, Kern and San Diego counties. Shelley formally requested that state Attorney General Bill Lockyer consider taking civil and criminal action against Diebold for installing machines that were not properly certified and then lying about their status." A number of counties in Ohio and Maryland also made similar decisions to decertify DIEBOLD INC and exempt them from being apart of the vote counting process in 2004. So, to the degree that lawmakers are asking the tough questions ahead of times in various jurisdictions, the system has worked. Whether in the long run we in Canada have electronic voting machines involved in our election process, it would seem important that the oversight of the machines is not by private companies that are engaging in activities that a state or province could use as a basis for a criminal investigation.

Hmmmm....good points Ray, I'm very interested in watching this develope over the next little while. I'll read the MSNBC and others which you posted, thanks.