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Monumental Lessons in Nelson
The draft dodger memorial flap, and what my town learned about war, peace, art and (some) Americans.
Please allow me to express my outrage at the citizens of Nelson proposing to celebrate dishonour. Honouring those that deserted the U.S. for sanctuary in Canada is a dishonour to those brave enough to go, and those braver still who refused to fight and stayed at home and faced prison. A monument to cowardice is silly. A monument honouring criminal behaviour is disgusting. A festival celebrating draft dodgers appears to be a lame attempt by cowards to slap each other on the back and pretend they are really misunderstood heroes. But silly people enjoying the benefits of a free society have the right to celebrate any way they choose, standing on the corpses of those brave enough to fight and die for their freedom.
That email was written by a resident of North Carolina in mid-September. It appeared on the electronic guest book on the City of Nelson’s website. It is one of a thousand letters and emails received by the city and the Chamber of Commerce after local resident Isaac Romano, speaking for a group called Our Way Home, announced plans for a conference of Vietnam draft dodgers in Nelson in 2006, and a memorial statue to be erected at the same time.
Here’s another typical quote, this one from a resident of Iowa: "Say what you want about us Yanks, you should know one thing, we're smarter than you, tougher than you, and we will kick your inbred ass.” Many of the writers threatened never to visit Nelson or Canada again.
This issue has provoked an extraordinary public discussion in Nelson about war, peace, Canada-U.S. relations, the power of the media, tourism, and public art. Many people have reacted very personally to it, and as a good example of that I highly recommend the recent article in the Tyee by Nelson writer Don Gayton, himself a Vietnam-era draft dodger.
Flood of hate mail
The controversy started because Fox News got wind of what Mayor Dave Elliott said when the project was announced, and they really liked it. Elliot has since said he was speaking personally and not as mayor when he off-handedly spoke approvingly of the project proposal, and he says he was agreeing with the conference, not the statue. Fox’s news broadcast of Elliott’s comments triggered an American hate-mail assault on Nelson led by several conservative American websites and the group Veterans of Foreign Wars, who appealed to President Bush to censure Canada for this insult.
In response to the emails, there was panic in Nelson among many people who thought the monument and the controversy would hurt tourism. Others were simply alarmed by the rude and aggressive language of the letters from the U.S. So the City of Nelson posted on its website a declaration that the city was not involved, and passed a resolution that there would be no public funding for monuments that did not have broad public support. In the meantime, the pro- and anti-monument debate grew within the city of Nelson, and letters started to come in, first from Canada, then from the U.S., supporting the project.
I interviewed Mayor Elliot about this issue on Nelson Before Nine on Kootenay Co-op Radio, after he’d spent the previous couple of days talking to major media outlets all over the continent. Commenting on those interviews he told me, “When I explain to them these are war resisters and that this is what veterans fought for in past wars, fought for freedom of speech, they begin to turn around and think about that, and I also tell them Nelson is the most livable city in the interior of B.C. and what a great tourism town we are, and we are a very liberal and open minded and we like anybody to come here. The interviews are very positive and I think the tide has turned.” Elliot speculated that this controversy will be good for the city because now millions more people have heard of Nelson.
Elliott’s next media interview after mine was with Fox News, up from Seattle to follow up their original story. Elliott told me he intended to ask them for an apology for misrepresenting the project as one sponsored by the City even after they had been told this was not the case. After that follow-up interview with Elliott, Fox then reported that the City of Nelson is now backing off its original plan to build a draft dodger monument because of dissent from the U.S. and Canada. Then they quoted George Bowering, Poet Laureate of Canada, from his letter of support for the project printed in the Nelson Daily News the day Fox was in town.
Controversy still not over
From my point of view as a radio journalist covering it, this issue has been fascinating because of its multifaceted nature and also because it has been so capricious: several times we’ve thought it was over or that we understood the issues, but something new always comes along to rejuvenate the debate.
On October 5, for example, everything changed again. Isaac Romano, the local organizer of Our Way Home called a press conference. At the speakers table with Romano was Our Way Home member and Vancouver historian Jeff Schutts, along with a teenage boy in a backwards baseball cap. Romano and Schutts announced that the monument would now be a monument to peace and refuge, honouring Canada’s role as a place of refuge from all wars. Romano said the conference and monument would not necessarily be in Nelson and that groups and individuals in other communities had expressed interest.
Then Schutts introduced 19-year old Brandon Hughey, who recently deserted the U.S. army and is applying for refugee status in Canada. His hearing is later this month. Hughey told us he is here because he doesn’t want to kill innocent civilians and he doesn’t want to go to prison. This was the Our Way Home group making the connection between Vietnam and Iraq explicit.
Near the end of the press conference everyone, including the organizers, got an interesting surprise. Someone circulated a press release from Vietnam Veterans in Canada, which outlined that group’s plans to have a conference in Nelson on the same weekend as the Our Way Home conference. Everyone assumed this would be an attempt to discredit, disrupt, or compete with the war resisters’ gathering.
‘Night sweats, heart pounding’
I interviewed Woodrow Carmack and Jerry Flowers of Vietnam Veterans in Canada the next day on Nelson Before Nine. Carmack is an American who moved to Canada after the war, and Flowers is a Canadian who went south and volunteered for Vietnam. They explained they organize a gathering every couple of years, attended by several hundred veterans from both Canada and the U.S.
“Our main business is reaching out to veterans of the Vietnam War and trying to provide counselling services and access to benefits and programs,” said Carmack. “When the news broke of the proposed memorial to the war resisters we saw this as an ideal opportunity to draw people out and provide them with services. It’s not a counter-event. We saw it as North-America-wide publicity for our services.”
Carmack described the acute need the need for counselling services among Vietnam war veterans. “Our entire Board of Directors is disabled from post-traumatic stress disorder, and most of the membership too,” he said.
“I have a sleep disorder,” said Flowers. “I have a big-time startle reflex, I like to sit with my back to the wall in restaurants, I don’t like crowds, I wake up with night sweats, heart pounding.”
“Many times it’s the wife who brings these guys kicking and screaming to our events. She says, ‘Look, this husband of mine needs help, he says he doesn’t need help, but I need you guys to talk to him and to talk to me as well.’ Then when they get there, the husband sees people just like himself….”
Flowers said they have gained one new member from the Nelson area as a result of the monument controversy.
What is public art?
When I asked them why they think the proposed monument to war resisters caused such controversy in the U.S., Carmack said, “Although by calendar date the Vietnam War is 30 years ago, for many people it was simply last night. It’s a current issue in their minds. It never goes away.” Carmack and Flowers told me that by having their conference at the same time as the war resisters conference, they hope to build bridges with “those who chose a different path.”
Meanwhile, on a more mundane level, this issue has provoked calls for a public art policy in Nelson. It turns out we may already have one, contained in the draft report of the Arts, Culture and Heritage Task Force that has been waiting for months to be put on City Council’s agenda. Council has been divided over the monument issue, and presumably they’ll get time to consider public art policy when they decide to take a break from debating things like courage, conscience, international ethics, and commercial garbage collection.
Some people in Nelson are saying the monument controversy is a good thing. Nelson is already on the map as one of the best small arts towns in North America, and as the most livable city in the B.C. Interior. Now maybe we’ll become known as the town that can spur a more passionate continent-wide debate about war and peace than any other town of comparable size in Canada.
Bill Metcalfe, host of Nelson Before Nine on Kootenay Co-op Radio (KCR) , contributes regularly to The Tyee. ![]()



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The REAL barking mad fox channel (not verified)
7 years ago
I don't know why the more froth-mouthed American patriot nut-cases think their like is welcome anywhere. Who wants loud-mouthed bullies? No, Canada did not support the Vietnam war, and it doesn't support the current Iraqi war. The Vietnam war was a waste of life initiated by a criminally colonial president (Lyndon Johnson) and perpetuated by a criminally cowardly president (Richard Nixon). Americans got their asses kicked participating in that disgusting abuse of power, and the draft-dodgers and deserters who saw the waste of life for what it was, and could no longer support it, were and are truly heroic.
The Observer (not verified)
7 years ago
I tend to agree with Real Barking Mad -- and I consider myself somewhat right-leaning in terms of the Tyee readership. The raving lunatic hawks from south of the 49th have no place visiting Canada. Don't like the monument? Then don't visit. Yes, we are a peace-loving people and we ain't afraid to fight for it. But to wage wars for war's sake? Give me a break. As for these hawks banning us as a tourist destination, don't want em, don't need, don't wanna see them. We didn't support the Iraq adventure, nor Vietnam. Both wars are the cause of plenty of bloodshed, and for what reasons? In both wars, thousands of innocent civilians -- in many cases children -- were killed. Neither country posed an immediate threat to the well-being of the US or Canada. The taunts of cowardice are pure and utter hogwash. When the Germans invaded Poland in '39, Canadians shipped out to the battlefields of Europe long before the Americans ever cared to. Ask the Dutch just how "soft" and "afraid" our Canadian boys were. It disgusts me to know end that GW Bush and his cronies have dismissed the friendship of Canada, let alone its contributions to world peace over the years, simply because it wouldn't tag along with this Iraq fiasco. And while I'm ranting, shame on Tony Blair, John Howard and Junichiro Koizumi for dragging three otherwise respectable countries into this debacle. How, and why, the British-Japanese-Australian electorates are tolerating this is a huge question, but one that will have to wait for another time.
Stuart (not verified)
7 years ago
No surprise Fox news wanted to focus on this issue. A must see is the new documentary Outfoxed. Fox news is nothing but a right wing propaganda infomercial carrying Rupert Murdock's agenda. Kind of like the Canadian Can West empire only 10 times bigger, a NeoCon paradise. There is a Higher law than state law, its your obligation to break the law when your state wants you To behave in a evil way. Once upon a time in the US it was legal to buy and sell black slaves And treat them anyway you like. If US citizens wanted to avoid killing poor people for the Benefit of US Corporate interest than good for them, we welcome all peace loving Americans In Canada. The First names we should put on the any draft dodger statues are that of George W and Dick Cheney . US citizens please educate yourselves in the history of US foreign policy, you will See that the poor fight for the benefits of the elite in America, people like Dick Cheney
allan (not verified)
7 years ago
Erect the monument. I'll donate.Real barking mad and The Observer are both right. We don't need to cater to war mongering American vets who haven't got a clue 30 years later why so many of their fellow Americans died in Southeast Asia. Accepting tourist dollars from that ilk is tantamount to accepting blood money in my view. The Nelson Chamber of Commerce and other opponent should stiffen their back a notch or two and act like Canadians rather than grovelling like wide-eyed, third-world trinket vendors, willing to do anything for a quickly-deflating greenback. Metcalfe is correct in identifying Nelson as one of the top arts communities in north America and having one of the best lifestyle settings in Canada. The town is beautiful and it is home to a unique bunch of people with heart and energy. It would be a shame if it also became known that Nelson is willing to deny its own heritage simply to appease some fringe-lunatic with a penchant for guns and a view of world history that defies logic.
Claude (not verified)
7 years ago
There is a deeply ingrained inability on the part of many Americans to concede the possibility of fallibility. Consequently, the frothing knee-jerk from a cretinous Iowan is unsurprising - expected really. Hell, I'd be surprised if many of the rabid clowns had been further than 500 miles from where they were born. What alarms me is the predictibility of Chamber of Commerce tail-tucking in the face of the slightest hint that one cheeseburger or postcard might go unsold. The folks who left their homes and families because of a principled refusal to be used as cannon fodder for a "police action" should be proud of their choice and we should be proud of ourselves for opening our arms to them.
Me2 (not verified)
7 years ago
Good work again Bill. Kick it up a notch, build the monument and formally invite the two honorary draft-dodgers: W and Dick. Now playing at the Whitehouse: W and the Corporate Fascists
Ben (not verified)
7 years ago
Although a certified draft dodger, I never could quite grasp the need for this monument in the first place. And after seeing the model of the proposed monument, I can see why some people were upset. Talk about mawkish sentimentalism! The other day on thetyee.ca, I suggested in jest that a more fitting monument would be the World's Biggest Chicken, because that's essentially what we draft dodgers were. This would kill a few birds with one stone, so to speak. It would praise cowardice, which is no bad thing in this day of false heroes. And it would pull in the tourists from south of the border. Even the most rabid war-monger would love to bring the family to look at a monument for those chicken-shit draft dodgers.
Coyote (not verified)
7 years ago
Tell me where to send my money, for this monument.
Stuart (not verified)
7 years ago
Hey brave Ben , You have a chance to be a real man. Go sign up for Iraq, a good moral War By chicken hawks Bush and Cheney, go for fight for Halliburton and United defense. Go and Fight the Elite American's and their corporate interest. Not one US Senator has a child in Iraq, Black Americans make up 12% of the population but represent 26% of the US Military. Figure it out, poor Americans become cannon fodder. In a land where blind patriotism and Wrapping themselves in the flag becomes status quo we welcome those who make a moral stance. Cowardice is being part of the Herd and being afraid to make a moral stance. There is a higher Law than state law. With things getting worse in Iraq and talks of a draft this is a very timely Issue.
Ben (not verified)
7 years ago
The day back in '71 when I crossed the border on the bus from Seattle, there were also three young black men who were turned away. The only difference between us was our colour. None of us had college educations. None of us had a lot of money. I guess if I was brave, I would have turned around with them. But we cowards learn to keep our mouths shut... Oh, Canada.
The REAL barking mad fox channel (not verified)
7 years ago
Doesn't sound like you crossed the border, Ben.
Ron (not verified)
7 years ago
I agree with Ben. The worlds largest Chicken is appropriate. Why did the chicken cross the border? To escape from persecution? No, becuase he was ball less. I say let all the chickens in from all country's...and contaminate Canada's gene pool furthur, so it produces mass quantities of Chickens. Then give it back to France. They would be perfectly matched.
MF (not verified)
7 years ago
It sounds like Ben regrets his decision to refuse participation in the murder of hundreds and hundreds of thousands - maybe more. Is murder the moral high ground he chickened out from? To this day there are millions of germans who regret that so many were simply "following orders"... And dear Ron, turning your back on your "pledge of allegiance" - all that you were taught your whole life long was not "ball less", not some simple choice - not knowing whether anyone would understand your stance, leaving for parts unknown, and not knowing whether you would ever set foot in your country again etc. Remember the pictures of napalmed children screaming in agony and running naked down a road? Or how about the one with Saigon's police chief about to blow away a blindfolded and defenceless young man? What about My Lai? That was the other choice. And don't say that this stuff was not known at the time. It was public knowledge. And so much more that was gruesomely inhuman. And the stuff that was still unknown was worse... Anyway - a monument to one chicken won't fly. I'll bet there was fear in everyones decision to come north, but I wouldn't call them chicken. Just Ben.
Ben (not verified)
7 years ago
Whaaa! Come fellas (he said speaking in the un-PC lingo of the '60s). Lighten up. See, that's what happens. A jester enters the room and everyone starts blaming him for everything that happened. ("Kill a Chicken for Christ" and that sorta thing.) Perhaps the best thing I learned these past 33 years in my adopted homeland was to not take myself too seriously while never-ever forgetting. Some of the above comments remind me of the "I'm more right-on than you" attitudes of my long ago land. Meanwhile, you can send money to....
Coyote (not verified)
7 years ago
Ben and Ron are Brownshirt trolls. Mayhaps, even the same dude. Sometimes they even dress up in draq as, ohhh, a femme, say a May, a right wingnut Indian, or whatever pulls your chain. Once you clue into the early warning signs, even their attempts at "subtlty" leap out at you.
Best thing to do, though it is difficult sometimes, I know, is just to not feed the bastards. Because their point is to divert you and sow confusion. It tends to work pretty good for them in the early going of a new "left" forum, but less so over time, as folks figure out how to recognized the early clues. (Of which this guy, or these two guys, don't seem to have many.)
Ben (not verified)
7 years ago
Yes, I am sorry attention was diverted from the matters at hand. Originally thought there was a purpose to my waywardness. Now am not so sure. But it was well meant. And no I am not Ron.
Vera Gottlieb (not verified)
7 years ago
Yanks don't want to come and visit Canada? Good riddance!!!
Korky Day (not verified)
7 years ago
As a war resister myself (from California, 1968), this article really moved me. Is the writer the Bill Metcalfe I knew in Vancouver years ago? Peace, Korky Day,
anne cameron (not verified)
7 years ago
But let us not pat ourselves on our northern backs so hard we dislocate something...Canada sold all the ingredients for napalm to the USA, all they had to do was mix'n'stir then burn the kids to carbonized husks..and now Canada is selling 500 million bullets this year and 800 million for the next five years to the U.S. Army for use in Iraq...we are not directly involved? Excuse me, do some research, - we support their fleet in the region... we look the other way when profit is possible... we have done NOTHING to censure this illegal war, probably because we don't want to do anything to upset the balance of trade. And, of course, who wants their marines coming over the 49th to openly take over what they are buying out from under us...the US now controls the ferry system in B.C. , the railway system...and the list grows daily. As for those who send hate e-mails...well, they probably didn't sign their real names... and probably can't find North even with a compass. The idea of them boycotting a town where they probably have never been anyway is really very funny. Let's hope they mean it. Let's hope they NEVER cross the border!!!!
theresa tait (not verified)
7 years ago
Looks like the comments here are a good sampling of the confused Nelson bleeding hearts who started this farce - unable to tell the difference between a pro-draft dodger monument and an anti-war monument. And so knee-jerk ultra-PC they don't even blink when those baby boomer draft dodgers decide to label themselves "Heroes." Funny how they weren't calling themselves heroes before this most recent war - but then, that's been a meaningless label ever since the fall of 2001.
Mary Murphy (not verified)
7 years ago
I sent a short piece to the Vancouver Sun and to my hometown newspaper (Detroit News) on this topic but neither apparently wanted it, so I'll send you an excerpt. It adds another dimension to this discussion: "US Veterans ask Bush to halt BC's 'Tribute to Cowards,' proclaimed the Vancouver Sun's headline on September 25. "Monument planned for city of Nelson is an insult, they say." ... For all the broo-ha-ha accompanying this outcry, an important fact is being ignored. If a memorial were to be erected to remember the most typical American immigrant of that turbulent time, it would depict someone like this: a twenty-something, university-educated DAUGHTER of a midwestern, Roman Catholic teacher. (Egads, I just described myself 32 years ago!) Yes, the typical American who came to Canada in those days was NOT an army deserter or draft dodger. She may well have been sympathetic to the anti-war movement, but her decision to fly from the "land of the free" was based on a number of factors, not the least of which was a desire for adventure and a craving for natural, unfettered beauty, both of which Nelson offered - and still does. If so many Americans are offended by - or afraid of - their neighbour's generous and tolerant spirit, it's their loss and not Canada's.
Thomas J. Enwright (not verified)
7 years ago
To all those who support the draft dodger memorial. This is a slap in the face to all Canadins veterans who served their country when they were call. This also a slap in the face to the 40,000 Canadians that served in the Vietnam war. Why you are angry at Americans? This is a Canadian problem and you need to stand up for Canadian Veterans no matter what war they served in. Canadians and Americans have served in each others wars for years and all of a sudden it is all right to say go ahead and build a memorial to those who did not serve there country. I am a proud Canadian Vietnam veteran from London Ont. that served with 3rd Recon 3rd Marines 64/65 and all I can say is shame on all of you that support this memorial.
allan (not verified)
7 years ago
Thomas J. Enright: So you served in a foreign military in an illegal war and you expect people to honour your effort? Proud? Then hop in your vehicle and head west along the 401 until you hit Windsor, line up behind some of those garbage trucks from Toronto and go deposit yourself in Michigan somewhere. Just which wars did the Americans and Canadians serve together in. It took that great nation two years to join in the first world war while much of humanity was being slaughtered across Europe. Twenty years later our heroic friends to the south spent another three years playing neutral while more millions died and suffered, including a lot of Canadians. Your pals down south didn't see the need to help out there until they had their own ox gored. Korea? Had the Americans stayed out of that fiasco it might have actually got resolved instead of remaining a festering sore half a century later. That pretty much brings us up to your involvement in Vietnam, which everyone but a few over-the-top vets and the military industry that got fat off it now sees as a real mistake. About the only other time Canadians and Americans have been together in battle is when Canadians were busy chasing Americans back across the border. Those antics began in the late 1700s and extended pretty much up until the 1850s when someone down there appears to have recognized there is not universal love for American expansionism in Canada, you and your mercenary pals excepted.
Bob Mercer (not verified)
7 years ago
Actually, although the U.S. military entered WW2 late, U.S. manufacturers got in early supplying arms to Churchill's Britain, and the FDR administration financed the deals through Lend-lease. An early public-private partnership. Anne Cameron points out Canada's role as arms merchant in Vietnam. I hope it clarifies things to call "Canada" a misnomer. Canadian private enterprise, often U.S. branchplants, sold weapons while the government of Canada stood by. But Canada means all of us in this place, not merely mercenary corporations nor complicit or bamboozled governments. And America means more than Fox News, Veterans of Foreign Wars (Veterans FOR Foreign Wars is more like it) and George Bush 2. America also produces the deep decency and civic-mindedness that brought war resisters here in the first place. As is so often the case at The Tyee, a good article is followed by torrents of puerile invective. Telling war vet Thomas J. Enright to "go deposit yourself in Michigan somewhere" repulsively echoes the Vietnam-era slogan: "America, love it or leave it." Call yourself Canadian, eh? Pity.
Mike Spivey (not verified)
7 years ago
I have just read this article about the monument honoring deserters and as a Canadian I say to the creator and to those who agree with it, " What were you thinking " If anything, it should be a monument to those who answered the call and fought to keep communism from spreading. The Vietnam war was not a favorable one for a number of countries but when one of those countries from the free world needs our help to keep it a free world then we all should rise to the occasion.My brother in law is one of those who did and almost lost his life for it. I was a young lad when he went down to join, and although I didn't whole hearty agree with the war I did agree with my brother in laws right to fight for what he believed in,and his right to fight for freedom . If any monument should be erected, it should be for all those Canadians who were injured, died and fought , [regardless for what country ]for our right to be FREE ! God Bless you and thank all of you for your bravery.
Robert { a proud Canadian} (not verified)
7 years ago
It is stupid things like this monument, that gives Canadians the nickname of CANUCKLEHEADS.The Canadian men and women that went to the aid of the U.S. back then did so to fight on the side of freedom.Don't think for once that the U.S. would turn us down if we asked for their help. Freedom comes at a very high price. Paying tribute to someone who comits a cowardly and illeagal act instead of those who unselfishly comit an act of bravery and heroism, just seems rather warped, don,t you think ? Nobody really wants to fight in a war and those who do because they are asked and needed are a special breed, not like those who run in the opposite direction like a scared rabbit. Those special Canadians are really the ones who deserve a monument. They and the Americans fought to keep us free and to give the oppressed people of the world a chance to experiance freedom and sample what we take for granted .Shame on anyone who would support this monument to cowards.
Robert { a proud Canadian} (not verified)
7 years ago
It is stupid things like this monument, that gives Canadians the nickname of CANUCKLEHEADS.The Canadian men and women that went to the aid of the U.S. back then did so to fight on the side of freedom.Don't think for once that the U.S. would turn us down if we asked for their help. Freedom comes at a very high price. Paying tribute to someone who comits a cowardly and illeagal act instead of those who unselfishly comit an act of bravery and heroism, just seems rather warped, don,t you think ? Nobody really wants to fight in a war and those who do because they are asked and needed are a special breed, not like those who run in the opposite direction like a scared rabbit. Those special Canadians are really the ones who deserve a monument. They and the Americans fought to keep us free and to give the oppressed people of the world a chance to experiance freedom and sample what we take for granted .Shame on anyone who would support this monument to cowards.
Robert { a proud Canadian} (not verified)
7 years ago
It is stupid things like this monument, that gives Canadians the nickname of CANUCKLEHEADS.The Canadian men and women that went to the aid of the U.S. back then did so to fight on the side of freedom.Don't think for once that the U.S. would turn us down if we asked for their help. Freedom comes at a very high price. Paying tribute to someone who comits a cowardly and illeagal act instead of those who unselfishly comit an act of bravery and heroism, just seems rather warped, don,t you think ? Nobody really wants to fight in a war and those who do because they are asked and needed are a special breed, not like those who run in the opposite direction like a scared rabbit. Those special Canadians are really the ones who deserve a monument. They and the Americans fought to keep us free and to give the oppressed people of the world a chance to experiance freedom and sample what we take for granted .Shame on anyone who would support this monument to cowards.
Bob Mercer (not verified)
7 years ago
Obviously there is something wrong with our elementary school system that so many writers here believe that when a huge imperial power invades a small Third World nation it is to preserve freedom. Not only does invasion strip away the rights of those invaded, it strips away domestic political freedoms too. Does the U.S. Patriot Act enlarge freedom? Does Canada's War Measures Act? Of course not, because war always creates the opportunity to curtail domestic political rights.
Stuart (not verified)
7 years ago
Nobody really wants to fight in a war and those who do because they are asked and needed are a special breed, not like those who run in the opposite direction like a scared rabbit... IN the US the special breed is poor black and Latinos, poor white folk..13% of the US population Is black but they make up almost 30% of the US Military. The US has a long record of supporting dictators like Saddam, Osama , Pinochet. (go and educate your self) See Sep 11, 1973 ***General Augusto Pinochet, the Chilean Commander-in-Chief and a member of the military junta, appointed himself the new President. His Cabinet was made up almost entirely of military men. Reports claimed thousands had died in the CIA-backed uprising. General Pinochet's regime was characterized by brutal repression and 3,000 people were killed or disappeared during his 17 years in charge. *****Clinton Later admitted US involvement and said The whole thing was regrettable. Yep the US had a long dirty record on Human Rights and crimes against humanity, its poor Folk used as cannon fodder for the rich US Corporations, Chicken Hawks like Bush and Cheney sending kids to die, having a moral conscience is much better than killing other Poor people in the jungle. All rednecks alert. US Military is now hiring contractors for Halliburton in Iraq.
allan (not verified)
7 years ago
Bob Mercer, if my comments to the U.S. vet from London Ontario sounded repulsive to you, so be it. He can be as proud of his actions as he wants and others are quite free to join in and support their nearest VietNam vet, yourself included. But don't tell me or any other Canadian that we should be standing shoulder-to-shoulder with people from a country that has for more than two centuries attempted to either take us over by arms or to squeeze us financially and through other covert means to control our resources, our politics and our relations with the rest of the world. Freedom fighters, my ass. Who's freedom was at stake in Vietnam? Only after tiring out French imperialists and then finally kicking enough U.S. ass, the Vietnamese have now reached a modicum of the so-called freedoms they would likely never have seen had they caved into imperialist aggressions between the '50s and the '70s. Go ahead and spout the apologetic bullshit of the right-wing media about our great relationship with our good neighbours to the south. The record states otherwise, but you might have to look for it somewhere other than in Readers Digest or the National Toast. ***Proud Canadian: The only thing that makes these people a special breed is that they were prepared to take a paying job killing or helping to kill people in their own homeland in a war that was declared illegal. (Funny, but a lot of American kids had the jam to say "screw you, I'm not killing people for the industrial complex" and some ended up in Canada.) Your Vietnam vet has no official status as a vet in Canada and if I had any say about it you would never get any special status for it other than perhaps as a war crimes suspect. Puff your damned US. marine medals out all you want, they carry no currency in Canada, unless of course you could trade them in and get our borders reopened to our softwood and beef, wheat, hogs and an ever increasing amount of products the U.S. is jerrimandering to keep out of the U.S. The London vet is no doubt entitled to a U.S. military pension, so I would say he has a lot more in common with Michigan than does Toronto's garbage. ***There are a lot of great American individuals and a lot of them died fighting the system within the U.S. Some are making changes and speaking up about the imperialist madness and hopefully even more will join the fight including those who come to Canada because they are repulsed by what staying would mean. Don't like my take on our cross boarder relationship. Well here's some news. The positions of Proud Canadian etc. make me sick.
Another Proud Canadian (not verified)
7 years ago
Allan, you are a sad, sad man.
allan (not verified)
7 years ago
Another Proud Canadian, this Canadian has developed his own views independent of the Walt Disneyish approach to history presented through our popular media. If you support the position of the other Proud Canadian (above), that's your right. However, I don't and a find it insulting that a fellow Canadian would tell me he joined a foreign military venture aimed at stiffling the rights of an entire nation to protect my freedom. Be proud of you country, but don't try to legitimatize your venture in southeast Asia as being for my benefit pal. It wasn't.
Stuart (not verified)
7 years ago
Allan is right on the Money, history did not start today folks, maybe some of those proud Canadians can justify 35,000 plus dead innocent Iraq's in the current conflict , I cannot. Maybe They can justify a foreign invasion in SE Asia that killed over 2 million people and used Chemical weapons made by Monsanto , I cannot. Go online for wonderful pictures of Donald Rumsfeld shaking hands with his wonder boy Saddam, They installed him and supported him When he committed his worse crimes. What the US needs in more cooperative dictators. Osama Was a good boy in the 80's and did business with the Bush family for many years. 160 countries Refused to support the War in Iraq before it started, 50 million protested , huge protest and Arrest unreported in the US, Yes these small minded neo conservatives with their screwed sense of The world are on a decline, I welcome all draft dodgers to Canada, don't die for someone else's Greed.
allan (not verified)
7 years ago
To those Americans who read this, please don't take my diatribe above as as statement that I am a sworn enemy of every last one of you. My ire, as I suspect Stuart's (above), is directed not at the typical American citizen, who has even less control over his or her country's actions than I do over mine (ok, it's debatable). It's a government administration that has lied about Iraq and been found out that angers me. It is an administration that has attempted to bully the world into jumping into the same folly, only to sneer at the near unanimous rejection within the world body. It is an administration that is riddled with conflicts of interest and too many financial and political ties to companies that are reaping billions off the death and destruction of an entire country. It's an administration that calls former family friends (Bushes-Bin Ladins), terrorists and then conveniently finds an another target, right in an oil patch and, guess who needs oil. I won't budge from my view of the history of our two countries and would invite you to do your own research right here on the web if you can't buy my line.***Now, this forum has included exchanges about Vietnam and I want to make clear that I believe American citizens who stood up to the status quo and braved censor, abuse, jail and worse to oppose that madness (including a true hero to me, a great, great American and citizen of the world, Mohammed Ali), were as responsible as any non-combatants in finally ending that ugly war. What I await is another awakening of that same spirit among like-minded Americans, so it goes without question I will be watching for signs that you want your country to steer a new course. I would encourage you to vote on Nov. 2 for anyone, but George W. Bush, to be president.
Robert (not verified)
7 years ago
It seems a shame that some people never learn from the past. Every time dictatorial powers abuse their citizens we sit back and wail and moan about the injustice of it all, but don't want to get involved personally. Yes the rich hold the power. Yes they are the ones that decide which wars to fight. But fighting wrong for whatever reason is only right in the end. Fighting abuse by any Dictator or Government is always morally right. Our Second World War vets gave us the continued rights we have today. To disparage the efforts of our vets is reprehensible. You may not agree with the final reasons for going to war in Vietnam or Germany or Iraq, but denegrating the actions of those brave enough to do so is ignorant.
allan (not verified)
7 years ago
"Yes, the rich hold the power. Yes they are the ones that decide which wars to fight. But fighting wrong for whatever reason is only right in the end." So there you have it folks, a succinct thumbnail view of democracy from Robert the international soldier. "Robert, the young guys who hijacked the airplanes that were then flown into the World Trade Centre, the Pentagon and even the one thought to have been heading for the White House on 9/11 would, in my estimation, fit nicely into your recipe for bravery. Belief in the rightiousness of and the willingness to carry out a mission doesn't turn anyone into a golden hero, unless of course, you support their goals. Lumping WW2 in with Vietnam and Iraq, in my view, is among the lowest insults you could come up with for the thousands of Canadian soldiers who didn't come home from Europe in 1945 to enjoy the perks and privilages offered to many who were more fortunate or didn't even make it to the front and yet claim the right to somehow speak for the dead. This is especially so when most Canadian "vets" have never spoken out about the racist treatment afforded those vets who returned to Canada only to learn that because they were Indian or First Nation, they were not entitled to the same benefits as other vets. I had an uncle who came home from that war shell shocked. He was one of thousands who were hospitalized for the rest of their lives and treated as basket cases, ripped off for their pensions and forgotten by their more fortunate returnees. I also remember an old soldier I met in the early '90s, a veteran of some of those truly heroic WW1 battles, who on a certain Remembrance Day (I believe it was 1994) waited patiently at his tiny home all so proudly decked out in his medals and then-aging uniform for a ride to the ceremonies. I offered him a ride, which he decline gratiously, assuring me that younger vets, by now wallowing in bullshit and cheap beer at the legion bar, would come to pick him up. If he didn't die a couple of years later he would still be waiting for that ride, so don't give me any of your brotherhood of warriers stuff. If I were to follow your argument any war would be a glorious event. Correct me if I am wrong, but I suspect what you are really doing here is attempting to justify and defend a specific political order called capitalism or whatever politically correct euphanism you employ to pretend you haven't wasted a life only to find it was all about letting McDonalds, Walmart et/al bespoil the world. You read far too many Sgt. Rock comics as a kid in my humble opinion. If you have a pension from the U.S. military for your involvement in one of its past adventures, enjoy it, but remember Canada didn't ask you to participate so I owe you absolutely nothing but the contempt I feel for those who are willing to kill for a paycheque. I'm just old enough to remember Lester Pearson warning Canadians who were considering joining the U.S. invasion of Vietnam in the mid '60s that they risked losing their Canadian citizenship by doing so. Did you heed that caution or were you out on "gook" patrol? I have all the respect in the world for people who died defending others, whether its in war, in the workplace or in the slums of so many of the world's cities where the bright lights of capitalism continue to treat them as fodder for production and or distribution.
Robert, in Vancouver (not verified)
7 years ago
Ben, I appreciated the self-effacing levity of your comments -- seemed sorta... Canadian. And the poignancy of your moment at the border made a deep impression on me. Thank you. Cowardice? The judgment is too simplistic and doesn't help anyone. But I know that no one is free until everyone is.
Mike (not verified)
7 years ago
It seems that everyone has forgotten what this forum was all about. It is about a town in B.C. Canada , wanting to erect a monument to honor a group of individuals [ ethically, right or wrong ] who broke the law. Their laws made by their elected politicians of their country by their people,in the USA not Canada. So if they want to honor law breakers let them erect a monument in their country, and make it their tourist attraction but leave us law biding, concientous Canadians alone !
allan (not verified)
7 years ago
Mike, I don't want to drag this on too long, but could you please outline what Canadian laws this "group of individuals" as you describe them, broke? Do you know specifically of any of that "group of individuals" who were actually charged and convicted of any illegal actions? My understanding is that most of the people proposing to erect this momunment are, in fact Canadians. Some are natural Canadians, while others have adopted Canada, just like most of us or our ancestors. Yes, you see an awful lot of Canadians came to this country by various means that required breaking the laws of the country they were fleeing. Wake up Mike, this country didn't pop out of a Walmart crate ready for assembly once you find the instructions. This is their country too and if they want to erect a momument to their version of reality, why are you so prepared to force your version of reality on a memorial? You are free to ignore it and, unless you undergo an extreme conversion, you will not be contributing one damned cent to it regardless. My advice, rub some calming salve on your neck and the redness will eventually fade.