I'm sorry NDP, but it's over. James makes GW Bush, of all people, look like a genius. Love 'em or hate 'em, the Liberals are assured of another 4 years as long as Carole James is party leader. Joy McP will certainly be missed.

I couldn't agree more. James will take her place in history along with Bob Skelly, Alexa McLaughlin and Audrey McDonnaugh, (they're interchangeable :-), as zero-impact NDP leaders

I think your wrong about Carole James, she missed getting her seat by a handful of votes in Victoria When the NDP was at their lowest. Not in mention that the greens had also ate up allot of support in her riding. The Liberal winner had less votes that the Greens and NDP combined vote. You can criticize her all you want but the fact is that Gordo is the most unappealing man ever, he enjoys the lowest opinion ratings of any leader. He runs in a safe riding where BC's most beautiful live and vote for their tax cut like cheap hookers. Lets just look at the BC Liberal record so far before you put down Carole James 1) Huge tax cut, 80% going to the top 5% of BC income earners. (this created the largest deficit in BC history justifying the huge cuts) 2) 100 closed schools around the province, some kids ride over 1 hr to get to school 3) 100- 150 % increased tuition placed on the back of students and parents, (less kids can know afford to get an education) 4) cutting programs for rape relief for women, cutting the books for the blind funding, cutting Legal aid(mainly affects women and children) 5) Tried to cut the $ 35 dollar per child gift allowance for Christmas for kids in foster care (what kind of prick does that) 6) Broke legal contracts, lied about cuts to health and education 7) Gave away BC Rail ( profit making crown corporation) to a private company-- Details of Of sale still being investigated by RCMP. 8) Gave away BC Ferries to private company, 9) New BC Ferries company decides to build new Ferries oversees, kissing of 2000 BC jobs and Over half a billion in direct and spin of benefits, 10) BC cuts funding pharmacare to seniors, 11) Cuts funding for disabled people, makes them reapply, throws mentally ill folks back To the streets, 12) Closes St Mary's hospital, 13) Crime rates in the GVRD have gone up 8-17 % around the lower mainland, 14) Gets busted for drunk driving 15) Ongoing investigations resulting for the raid of the BC leg Okay that's just what I could think of for now. Now please enlighten us with the good things the Liberals have done for BC, maybe just come up with one thing.

Stuart, this is a perfect example of negative voting...voting against a party you don't like. Which is fine. I don't think that I want the Libs to form the next government either. But doesn't the other side need to be represented by a strong, credible, and VISIBLE leader?

I feel we do need a change, I like the NDP. Things CAN West and other media outlets in BC Neglected to tell the voting population. 1) The NDP left the province with a surplus( allot Of it was due to good returns on energy prices , however still a surplus.) 2) Lowest child Poverty rate in Canada, 3) 2nd most affordable tuition in Canada, if you think education has Gotten better just go and ask any student. 4) Lowest small business tax rate in Canada, 5) The only area recognized by the UN as meeting protected environment standards. There are just a few good things, yes they made allot of mistakes but pail in comparison the Neo Liberal crooks running the province now. We need to vote for a party that can win and then rearrange it after.

The one thing that Carole James has going for her is that compared to Gordo, she comes across as a fairly normal human being, not a drunken liar.

How long do people of BC have to put up with the lesser of 2 evils? Despite some differences, both parties perch on top the same foundation, an economy based on further consumption of natural resources. Both labor and management are simply sitting at the same table, greedily grabbing, voraciously feasting, and conspicuously consuming everything in sight. It is a fight over getting a share of the plunder, a pirates game. Maybe we should be talking limits to growth, conservation, doing more with less. These drunken fools, NDP/Conservative/Liberal, need to get on the wagon. And be sent packing.

Haha, I love all this talk about the lesser of two evils, this is great. I'm thinking about changing my nn to lesser of two evils.

Ah, the timorous reactionaries crawl out of the woodwork. Perhaps james would have more visibility if the corrupt and cowardly vancouver sun would ever allow her an opinion piece. James will nevertheless become increasingly visible in the leadup to may 17, 2005 as it becomes obvious to voters that, unlike gordon liar she has a conscience, a plan and is willing to be accountable through something other than propaganda, lies, and hairsplitting legalese to british colombians.

Mr Mcmartin, I am increasingly disappointed with your tyee articles as opposed to your performance on cbc's political panel at 6:45, generally on thursday nights, where I note you are no longer employed. While on that panel you vigorously castigated the gordon liar government, and repeatedly stated, "there is no good news for this government..." Well, canwest lies not withstanding, there still is no good news for this government as all but the most terminally stupid and reactionary shills are well aware of. Carole James grows on people; gordon campbell grows on the consciousness of the electorate like a cancerous hemeroid.

"Observer," (although I.ve really never seen you actually OBSERVE anything, you do regurgitate a profound amount of neoliberal pap, however) how many suicides of the disabled so far thanks to the genocidal policies you are helping to implement????

lewis, call me a timorous reactionary, but at least call me a brave one—I’m going to disagree with you.

You’re making the fatal assumptions that (1), voter discontent might be enough to beat Gordon Gamble & Co, (2a), Carole James will have the opportunity to become more visible and get her message out, and (2b), that enough people will actually care to think during the election.

(1) Discontent with Gordo will garner some votes, to be sure, but I would argue it will not be enough to kick the BC liars to the curb. Like it or not, many BC voters need a viable alternative to Gordo, and while she’s nice and all, Carole James is just not it.

(2) Unfortunately, Ms. James will not have the opportunity to “grow on people.” You know as well as I the Canadian media monopoly views the NDP under any leader as inept and corrupt. Gordo will have no trouble getting this message out. In fact, I bet Gordon Campbell will at some point start saying, “Carole James is just not up to the job.”

(2b) is that you’re also assuming many BCers are going to think during the election. The reality is that Gordo's got the message, the stats, the cunning and the machine. Add these things together and he’s got the edge. Many BCers will just absorb his pap and think about other things.

The common message among several of the posters, and mine too, if you have read my posts on other articles, is that Carole James does not have what it takes to win the next election.

I agree with Mr. McMartin—Carole James must become more visible, and more politically ruthless and adept if she thinks she’ll have any chance of beating Gordo. Voter discontent will just not be enough.

I see little evidence that Carole James has the right stuff to be an effective leader of the NDP. This party presently exists in perpetual suspension, wedged between reforming itself and the mendacious same-old, same-old cabal that controlled, and still controls it. If it can't come to grips with its highly regrettable past, doesn't clean house and make an authentic break with the slimy elements that were responsible for its pathetic showing in the last election, then the voting public is going to continue to vote in the brown shirts ad infinitum. Unfortunately, I seriously doubt the NDP, or James has the cajones to face the past, admit mistakes, and conjure a vision that doesn't look just like 1996. Adriane Carr, on the other hand, has demonstated she is a very effective leader and continues to attract intelligent moderates to the Green Party. If you want to build a future in politics in BC, the middle ground is where you plow. By mining the fringes, the NDP is going to be relegated to a perpetual marginalized party, the place it has long occupied in BC and Canada, and often very effectively I might add. And that's where it belongs. One byelection in Surrey, for which I cede to the NDP, hands-down, has little to do with how the rest of the province will vote in May, however.

Rob does have some very good points. I feel the frustration of the 3 kinds of BC Liberal Voters. Staring with the smallest to the largest group. 1) BC Liberal hard core supporters, aware of his policies and very educated. The small number who Benefited directly from his tax cuts etc. They vote their class, put another way they act like Cheap hookers who sell out for the highest buck and burry their conscience in ideology . 2) The I'm okay bunch - The ones who are doing okay, have jobs and feel comfortable, they Don't think of others and frankly don't care, they are afraid that If something changes they will Lose their piece of the pie. They try to convince everyone else things are great because their Great. 3) The drooling masses - To busy and lazy to care, uneducated, uninformed, the Media tells Them how to think and how to vote, they learn by repetition and idealize people like Michael Campbell and Bill Good and yes even Peter Warren. So Rob is correct in that the BC Libs have a machine and the left if fighting a uphill battle, In Europe they have large Unions owning Radio and Newspapers etc, not one Union owns a paper in Canada(they have the money) , Until we democratize the media or start owning it we have a uphill battle.

The Green Party has never won a seat in the history of Canada and never will. They are actually A very right wing party, the Sierra club recently gave the NDP a better grade on protecting the Environment. The Greens will never garnish enough support to take one seat, anyone knows that If you want Gordo out you vote NDP. Its funny how the BC Libs make coalitions with the old Socrates and old BC Reformers while the left divides the vote with the Greens, the last Green vote was a protest vote against the NDP, these people will come back once they see what they have to lose.

Hey there Stuart The right hates the media because of the left wing biasis of the media. The BC Liberals are frustrated that their message does not get out. Media concentration is less than ever before, with the internet (and sites like this one or Sean Holmans Publiceyeonline.com) there is no way that anyone can control the media for any political point of view. You may not like, but to many people the Liberals are preferable to the NDP. There is no confidence that the NDP is capable of governing or that the NDP has learned from the mistakes of the past. Given the political disaster of the fast ferries, the NDP could have shown a break with the past and said that the new indepedent process the government created for BC Ferries is a good idea, but everything seems to say the NDP did not learn from touching the hot stove of interferring in ferry building. The issue in the election will be confidence in who can deliver the better governance for the province. Yes, the BC Liberals have not done well in many areas, but on election day they will get many more Xs than the NDP and be re-elected

Oh my goodness, Bernard what planet are you living on...(The right hates the media because of the left wing biases of the media) Anyone knows that sometimes the CBC plays a tiny spot or lets a left winger on the show and everyone yells bloody murder. Are you trying to tell us that CAN West , who owns both major New papers and 14 local papers and Global news, and then the Chorus Radio network which owns CKNW, Fox, Rock 101, CFUN, News 1130 are left wingers, you mush be joking, Actually you come under category 3 of my above posting. And come on, the Liberals are frustrated the message does not get out, You think Bill Good, Peter Warren, Michael Campbell(Gordos brother ) and Phillip till are socialists, Can West is just an infomercial for the BC Libs, anyway read my above posts of the BC Fiberals record. And if you think that out sourcing 500 mil in spin of benefits and screwing 1200 plus BC ship builders is good I don't know how to respond to you. BC Ship builders built the Fast Ferries exactly as they were instructed to. And by the way Gordo then Sold them for pennies to the company that built them. Who is now rejigging them in our docks in North Van to use them as floating casinos, gee I guess we could not have done that. 90 % of media consumption in BC comes from the mainstream media, most folks like you are to lazy to get the facts, 5% of the top BC income earners took home 80-85 % of the tax cut which justified the huge cuts, the rest is just spin, the poor will pay for the cut in raised tuition, more fees, less schools and hospitals, and by the way crime is up 8 -17 % in the lower mainland. Check my above Post and stop annoying us with your ignorance.

It always amazes how people willingly turn a blind eye to the obvious.Take,for example,Bernards comments about "Left Wing Bias" in the media.When Little Mikey Campbell isn't ranting about unions and "welfare cheats" he's sucking up to george bush and how we shouldn't be bashing the us because,gee they're our best friends in the whole wide world and they'd never let us down and so on.And Bernard's right about the fiberals not doing well in many areas.BC Rail,olympics,P3 RAV line,cuts to education,health,and social services.Whew! I'm getting tired just trying to type this! Have a nice day folks! P.S. Totally agree with Stuart about the three kinds of voters.

To add to Stuart's list: the BC Liberals 1. reduced provincial funding to the Vancouver Police by 40% forcing the closure of some of the commmunity police offices.

2. are replacing a park at the corner of Oak and 12th with a P3 Ambulatory Hospital. Why are they not using the hospitals that were just closed?

Thanks Will, A must see for everyone is the new documentary Outfoxed. Its about fox news and the Murdock Empire and how he uses his immense power to push his right wing agenda. It's not Bernard's fault Let me explain. In the old Soviet Union the people knew the media was just gov propaganda, in Canada and the US we don't even know we're being brain washed making us more susceptible to it. They say their fair and balanced while 95% of their guest and comments push the Neo Liberal Agenda and praise its accomplishments. Some of my favorite examples,,,, 1) When Christy Clarke was education minister she closed almost 100 schools killing many Small communities and putting undue hardship on our kids some traveling by bus over one Hour to get to school. CKNW reported this as tough choices that had to be made cleaning up the Mess left by the NDP , In fact the NDP left a surplus , the story should have read Christy new role of lapdog is to close as many schools as possible to help pay for Gordo's huge tax cut for BC's most beautiful, 2) Or when over 80 % of Canadians opposed the illegal war in Iraq, CKNW pounded the drums for weeks , interviewed all the hawks, and basically let us to believe their was no options. Any opposing views were shouted down or cut off. Most people our good and moral, that’s if they have the information which of course they don't 5 % of the population have benefited directly for the BC Libs and no one else. I think the Big unions like CUPE should form their own paper or radio station to give some balance.

I see the tyee editor has pusillanomously deleted my post despite the fact that it was an effective rebuttal with a coherent political strategy. The worse thing I said on it was gordon campbell has the ethics of a pimp (he does) ansd that people who betray their kids for a tiny taxcut not caring about the harm it does not only to other people's kids but also their own, ade despicable. I stand by that. It also contained a very effective and coherent sytategy for the ndp to win the next election, but my guess is thet the tyee editor on duty is more interested in placating his rightward leaning friends at harbor center. How disappointing and how pathetic that the right, with all the manifold resourses on its side can not even go mano-a-mano for the space of a few hours...this is of course yet one more reason why the bc liars are going to lose the next election...stay tuned for my jungian analysis of why all bc liar supporters are either ignorant, selfish or psychotic, or all three -coming to you in sparkling, iridescent prose real soon...

I would also like to reiterate one of my most important deleted points: however much the right would like it to be, the next election is NOT going to be a referendum on carol jame's character, but on gordon campbell's and that 62% personal disapproval rating can only get worse...

Lets hear it, it its not illegal or inciting violence it should come under free speech , lets have it. I will be waiting.

I do not post on canada.com because they edit my posts thetyee has also removed several of my posts which annoys the hell outa me and I will go elsewhere for my local unbiased news if they persist in doing this.

Bernard - How does anyone go from governing to 2 seats in an election and not learn anything? I mean, Dosanjh took out an informercial a week before he dropped the writ in 2001, proclaiming (quote)"BUILDING FAST FERRIES WAS A MISTAKE" - it doesn't get any more explicit than that. As for the byelection, the Liberals lose no matter who gets elected: either the NDP builds on their momentum, the Greens get a foot in the door, or the Liberals are stuck with Mary Polak driving an even bigger wedge between the social and fiscal conservatives in the Liberal caucus.

Essentially what I said stuart is that all the ndp need do to win is to get the truth out, (which we should be heartened is overwhelmingly in favor of the ndp) campaign on gordon campbell's character not james, and perhaps most effectively campaign on what gordon campbell's hidden agenda this time, which irrefuteably will bring the privatization of icbc along with insurance rates akin to those in the maritimes of $5000 per annum, and the sell-off of hydro with attendent quadrupling of hydro bills(the bc liberals are already sending out feelers for private sector payroll and accounting, accenture encore anyone?), and the that the ndp should never be ashamed of their record: glen clark was just one man, unlike gordon campbell he was found innocent, at least he meant well, perhaps most of all the ndp should campaign on communities, for strong communities build strong economies, not the reverse, and the bc liars have irrefuteably lowered the standard of living for all but 5% of british columbians...will write it up a bit more lively later...my complements on your very well-ordered and thought out posts -ls

Essentially what I said stuart is that all the ndp need do to win is to get the truth out, (which we should be heartened is overwhelmingly in favor of the ndp) campaign on gordon campbell's character not james, and perhaps most effectively campaign on what gordon campbell's hidden agenda this time, which irrefuteably will bring the privatization of icbc along with insurance rates akin to those in the maritimes of $5000 per annum, and the sell-off of hydro with attendent quadrupling of hydro bills(the bc liberals are already sending out feelers for private sector payroll and accounting, accenture encore anyone?), and the that the ndp should never be ashamed of their record: glen clark was just one man, unlike gordon campbell he was found innocent, at least he meant well, perhaps most of all the ndp should campaign on communities, for strong communities build strong economies, not the reverse, and the bc liars have irrefuteably lowered the standard of living for all but 5% of british columbians...will write it up a bit more lively later...my complements on your very well-ordered and thought out posts -ls

I have to agree with Lewis- the Liberals are not going to win the next election. We don't know Carole "doesn't have what it takes" until she tries- and since when is that a prerequisite for being a leader?? And Stuart, I don't fall into any of those categories- I'm somewhere between "I'm okay, have a job and feel comfortable" but I do care, and have friends from all walks of life (the so-called "highly educated" and those who are barely hanging on- including the mentally ill) and I will be voting, and it won't be for a drunkard, and I believe there are enough folks out there like me who can make the difference. Let's hope...

Oppositions don't get elected, governments get defeated. James is smart to sit back for now and let Campbell garner all the attention. The more people see of him the higher his disapproval rating goes up, especially among women.

James can slowly make herself more visible before the next election so that everyone knows she isn't Campbell or Clark. That will probably be enough.

Dear Will, In your article, "Why James Isn't Running in Surrey", you have given your considered opinion about the NDP Party's leader, Carole James', decision not to run in the Surrey by-election. I would like to address the way you characterized her taking "more than three weeks" to consider whether to run in this riding. To say she was "dithering" implies she was "nervously hesitant, trembling, quivering and quaking" (as the Webster dictionary defines dithering); and I feel it was your political intent to denigrate a leader who, in my opinion, has not met the standard of a dithering leader since being elected to her position. In response to your article, I would like to give you my opinion of Carole James and the way she has conducted herself as leader. In her brief term as leader of the NDP, she has demonstrated a calm, considered resolve on a great number of issues. In each instance, she has shown herself to be a woman who listens to opposing views and addresses them in an intelligent, thoughtful, and sensitive manner. She is been anything but "nervous and hesitant", as implied by your article. In saying she "dithered", you are making inferences about a political decision to run as a candidate when you were not privy to, nor do you know, all the factors she needed to take into account. I hope that the electorate will not agree with your view, and will recognize that this pervasive trend to rush toward a political agenda without considering the issues carefully and without taking into consideration all the consequences in a thoughtful manner is a pattern that needs to be broken. We need a leader who will not run roughshod over those she or he is entrusted to care for. We need someone who listens carefully to all sides of an issue before making a decision. To lead our province is not a game, and it should not be seen as a race; it is a privilege and one which should not be carried out in haste. Carole James has shown herself to be a politician willing to risk the traditional accolade of being a "decisive" leader in favour of being a leader who accepts the fullness of the responsibilities for the decisions that must be taken for the benefit of all. However, I do feel that the decisions she has made have been firm and resolute. You are a respected political commentator; and I have appreciated the forcefulness of your comments when you feel someone is not doing a good job. However, in this article, I feel you allowed your bias as a conservative to denigrate a potential leader of BC without any real evidence of incompetence, and it seems to me a cheap shot to call a newly-elected leader a "rookie" and a "ditherer" when there is no evidence that she took more time than she needed to make the "correct" decision. In my mind, taking "more than three weeks" to make the "correct" decision is not a "woeful lack of political acumen." It is the sign of a political leader who listens and considers carefully before making a decision which will affect her chances of becoming the next leader of British Columbia. Charlie Smith characterized a political campaign as a "war". I hope we will not have any more wars in BC. Enough people have been hurt already. I feel confident, from what I have seen of her leadership, that Carole James will allow all of us to remain standing, fit, and included if she becomes the next Premier of BC. I feel it is fair and necessary to criticize when someone is not thoughtful or makes decisions which benefit only one segment of the population; but in this case your criticisms seem unduly harsh. Sincerely, Cathy Woods

www.creativeresistance.ca

James can debate rings around the lot of them. I mean that seriously. Listening to meally Carr (I've seen her in public debates)..trying to make some semblance of a point, is akin to waiting for Godot.

Perception is everything. Sure Ms. James might be a great listener and debater who is sensitive to others. And by god, she might brew her own beer, ride bike to work and spend the weekend reading Tolstoy in sexy underwear. But telling people about these qualities is not going to win the election.

Do you think sensitivity and debating skills matter? Debating is boring and sensitivity is out. BCers are busy. They want to know what Carole James can do for them, and they want to know succinctly. To impress BCers, she first needs to prove she’s not part of the old school NDP that were so recently shamed—getting Paul Summerville in there would help immensely. Then she needs to get in our face and tell us how she’ll protect the environment, create jobs, improve healthcare and education and sustain the economy, etc, etc.

At the same time, she can ignore Gordo. But, certainly, no matter the level of odium he attracts, sitting back and doing nothing while waiting for him to fail just won’t cut it. Do you think he’ll be hated even more by election time? I doubt it. Don’t forget the tools at his disposal. It’s a long winter and he’s already started flooding minds with feel-good propaganda. I guarantee it’s starting to work its magic.

I’m not saying that Carole James wouldn’t be a good Premier and that BC-ers don’t like her. I’m saying many don’t know a lot about her, and what they do know is not super positive—just ask Mr. McMartin.

Carole James should get out there now and start shaking her rep as a debater and vacillator. It’s too late to do it during the election when perception is more than everything.

Notice how Rob Q. does not have the tiny amount of intestinal fortitude to admit how entirely ideological and partisan his bias...why not just say it, Rob Q. -you're a bc liberal and you support gordon campbell and you could care less about a rational assessment about jame's qualities as a leader; you only care about your taxcut no matter who gets hurt.

And while we're on the subject of leadership, Carol James does have an inner toughness, only her toughness is matched by compassion unlike the whining little piece of human garbage, who after assaulting little old ladies, the disabled and the poor blubbered, whined and moaned in front of all of bc for "understanding, compassion and forgiveness, after being caught driving with 2 bottles of wine and a jug of martinis sloshing around in what would be his guts, if he had any. If you think the majority of british columbians have forgotten this kodak moment and that it won't surface at the next election, then you're either willfully delusional, or simply not very bright. Tyee editor I expect that this post will be left up, even if Rob q. is a personal buddy of yours...I also expect an article on the bc liars' odious "safe streets act" as soon asd possible.

Sorry I didn’t reply sooner lewis, but I was busy laughing. Let me wipe the tears from my eyes and type out a response.

Frankly, I’m not a BC Liberal supporter. But that’s as far as I’m going to dignify your super-human leap to conclusions on me. As for my post(s), I have tried to be as clear as possible, but let me try to re-clarify for you what is my position on this subject.

I would love to see the Liberals go down in flames in the next election; but I believe that while voter anger exists, BCers need a better alternative than Ms. James before they’ll turf Gordo. So, rather than rant angrily, I try to present logical, albeit, generalized, solutions to the challenge of beating the Liberals.

Consider if you will, lewis, this year’s Federal election. There was an unprecedented amount of animosity to the Federal Liberals. Well, as you know, sir, the Libs almost lost, and I believe the only thing that saved them was Stephen Harper. Had Bernard Lord, Peter McKay, or anyone else who the public perceived as more tolerant and less right wing been the leader of the Reform/Alliance/Conservative/whatever, the Fed Libs would be sitting on the Opposition bench today. I believe the same will occur in the BC election. The NDP will win more seats, but the Liberals will remain in power no matter the amount of animosity to Gordo, and no matter how many times Gordo’s drunken mugshot is flashed on the TV screen. The reason? Carole James.

So, my message is—Carole James must improve the public’s perception of her in order to win next year’s election.

What Carole James and the NDP need to do is more than talk. The best promotion is that you provide a desirable product. Anything that they can give us, the leadership-thirsty rabble, an idea of their mettle is worthwhile. Now, what could that be? Innovative thinkers, respond. Starter ideas: raise impressive amount of cash and services for worthwhile cause; establish must-see political website; issue sexy calendar.

Then you should have stated your perspective from the outset, Rob Q.,; you also ignored the general canwest refusal to even give james a voice and you piled on side with will mcmartin...in fact I can hardly think of a way at all that you made your outlook transparent in any way, nor was the "common message" in the right wing posters that preceded you any thing but unbiased and partisan. In short, if you want to criticize james, fine, but at least make it clear what your perspective is...I will take your word that you are not biased against the ndp, but you are obviously biased against james...

I should have been more clear. Campbell is not well liked. Saying James should not do anything at all was probably wrong. So I'll modify it. She shouldn't say anything to rock the boat. Smile and say whatever platitudes people want to hear, they'll write what they think she meant in their heads. Use phrases like fiscal responsibility, community values, clean streets, and whatever else. Be like Bennett, the Zalm and last time Christy Clark, your answer to everything will be a simple phrase while smirking. It works, BC'ers lap that stuff up. Just call the other side the Campbell-extremists now and then to let everyone know you're not like him, you're cuddly and safe.

I knew Bill Bennett, and Carole James is no Bill Bennett. Let's face it: the NDP blew it by not persuading Andrew Petter or Moe Sihota to go for the leadership. Either of them could have eaten Campbell for lunch.

har har. Fact is, the Bennetts, Zalm and Campbell demonized their enemies and said whatever was popular to get elected even when they had no intention whatsoever of following through. James should copy their example. Just smile and let everyone know things will magically work better with her in charge instead of that demon Campbell.

Frank, get yourself a good history book. If you don't read good or your lips get tired easily, find someone who was alive from 75-86. Jack Munro, maybe.

Actually I was alive, when Bennett was premier we left BC to find work.

Rather than childish rhetoric and name calling Norman, throw out some facts or at least some decent opinion. Do you have a history book to recommend or should I just go by my memory?

Also, you may want to remind people that you were one of Bennett's advisors were you not? My shot hit a little close to home? Well Senator Quayle, you may want to get over that. Seems that both Bennett and Lyin Brian quit before the voters could throw them out. Did you advise them on that too?

But please, I'm natually curious to hear that history has been turned upside down and governments no longer defeat themselves. Considering I know your record and am still very certain I know more about history than you ever will I'll be keen to hear your biased version of how Bennett was a misunderstood knight in shining armour.

" Like it or not, many BC voters need a viable alternative to Gordo, and while she’s nice and all, Carole James is just not it." writes Rob. <

I'm late to this discussion, nor have I read all the posts this thread, plus I'm in a bit of a "turned off politics" spell-, which is less a serious thing with me, and more a breather, to play (Being really more a "physical" than an intellectual person, I need time to play.), so I will be quick and dirty here: but I must say that I essentially agree with Rob, reluctantly, but nonetheless.

And while I think Carole and the NDP are "part" of the problem right now, I think the fundamental character of the problem is even much greater than they. Firstly, "The Left", even the "pale" NDP version of it, as Rob alludes, is quite conciously and deliberately being "cut out of" or "excised" from the "public" picture, quite altogether, by the corporate media and the other major institutions of "the system". (If you have been paying attention to this latest "parliamentary deal" avoiding a "confidence vote" in the confederal House of Commons, you will note in the minutia, that in the end, rather than cut a deal with Layton and the NDP against the Bloc and Conservative "provincial rights" alliance (echoing the mantra of "state's rights" in the U.S.), as it looked might happen, briefly there, Martin instead chose, at the critical hour, to "snooker" around the NDP and cut a deal with "the right" to resolve matters. Ominous, I suggest. It says to me, that the NDP is about to get the "Big Time" Rodney Dangerfield Party treatment in the coming session of the House and thereafter until the "next" election, from ALL parties of the right.) Indeed, the whip for the Conservatives, at the conclusion of the deal, when asked about the NDP said, that really, they were irrelevant to matters of this parliament.

Now, as important as that is, for what it says about the current "rapidly right moving and cut out the left altogether" period we are in, in which ALL the major institutions are conducting themselves as if they are reading out of the same single copy of the "status quo" hymn book, I suggest that it is an even bigger and more convoluted problem than that. < P>

For secondly, "the Great Unwashed" are pissed off, surely, and the non-participation rates in elections and politics themselves are a "negative" measure of this sense of futility, but still only in part because the NDP has been such an overall abyssmal failure as a serious and credible alternative, in part due to media and "legal" manipulations (i.e. Clark), to be sure, and is (viewed at least) as no serious alternative, but also for the "Unwashed's" own selfish reasons of right now, being more preoccupied with trying to cling to its rapidly deteriorating standard of living and familial finances and deteriorating relationships... At which Unions have been of precious little help lately... and for a multitude of other self and family-centric reasons, "the great mass" has stopped believing in and giving a shit about the political processes of "the system". Period. And that includes the NDP, of course. And maybe even especially the NDP, because it gets no respect from just about everyone.

In this environment, Carole is just another in a long line of politicians with no really seriously distinguishing features or earmarks, and from a Rodney Dangerfield Party at that, but simplly another cookie cutter politician in a long and eminantly forgettable line. Okay, so she's a "chick", this one. Big hairy deal.

Now, I was going to be quick and dirty, and instead, now I'm launched, so I will curtly attempt to pull it all together here.

In short, we are in the low point of a new period that has been coming on for at least a couple of decades now, since the late 70s, and I say to you, that for "the left" to pull out of THIS tailspin, bland and business as usual is no longer good enough. The G forces arrayed against us are just too great and of no mind to make concessions. Carole, in her current packaging and packing her current ideology and that of her party, is not going to fire any imagination or tent revival, catching "the masses" need "to believe" in the "second coming" of the left. It's going to take more huzpah (?), sensuousness and ideological fire and brimstone to cut through the cycnicism, self-absorbtion and "suspension of belief" that exists out there in current society-, and the system's simple undertaking to carry on as if "the left" doesn't exist at all, in any case.

I'm sorry, but "the left", regardless of whether or not that includes the NDP in the future, is going to have to be prepared to advance "something" by way of an ideology, a programnme and a face perceived more "threatening", and "in fact" BE more threatening to the "power status quo" and "the system", if it hopes to cut through the cheese thick atmosphere of Rodney Dangerfield "disrespect" extant out there in prevailing socio-political society.

And even IF the NDP "flukes" into power one more time, always a possibility... Yawn!! Eh, now, ain't this deja vu.

"Wha' d'ya mean, we have to accept the fact that the changes that have been made are irreversible, or can't quickly be undone? And the tax cuts?"

Norman Spector? Norman Spector? Wasn't he one of a foursome with Larry, Curly and Moe, in the Four Stooges?

Hmm, one should take a deep breath before hitting submit. So allow me to offer my sincere apology for my rude response to you Norman, one should act here like you would in person and I would normally never be so rude.

Coyote : true left-wing government, which is your desire doesn't come about at the ballot box. Whether it be the Paris Commune or national revolutions, true change in society flows from the barrel of a gun. Anyone who considers Glen Clark and Moe Sihota as socialists are seriously deluded. Doesn't mean that's bad, I voted for them. And I know you don't consider them to be very left-wing either. Its no coincidence that war is the precursor of real change. Its only when society has been shattered that people are willing to try real change because the previous system is so discredited. Anyone who has followed parliamentary democracy for any length of time knows that loyal oppositions are a government in waiting and invariably they get their chance. Governments either change leaders and rebuild their cabinets or they run out of ideas or the people just tune them out. I'm sure you would agree that Gordon Wilson would be either the current premier or the next one if he had stayed with the PDA. The NDP will be back in power before long or Campbell will be gone and replaced with a fresh face. That's as certain as power passing from Democrat to Republican in the US, from Labour to Likud in Israel, from Christian Democrat to Social Democrat in Germany or from socialist to conservative in Sweden. Even Alberta, where new conservative premiers have to campaign against the record of the tired old previous conservative government. Every government runs out of gas in every democracy and the opposition gets their chance as long as they don't shoot themselves.

But in the larger scheme of things it won't make a whit of difference because the NDP are not a revolution. We could elect the NDP in every province and consumerism/consumption would still be the way our society's success is measured and the planet would continue to get sicker. Real societal change in Britain didn't happen because of a choice between Gladstone and Disraeli. The NDP is only left-wing in comparison to the parties it runs against, and even that difference isn't much. Considering we live in a century where its possible that we won't have ice in the arctic by 2100 I find it hard to get excited by an NDP government where capitalism will still hold sway. We can't vote for real change and have any hope of seeing it happen, all we can do is vote to change things around the margins like a choice between private and public auto insurance, big deal. I'm afraid if the NDP really did threaten the status quo as you said, they would be derided by the press barons and give the tired government in office a new lease on life.

Democratic change cannot be imposed by a minority from above. In a democratic society social change must evolve by consensus. Therefore, the NDP is bound to move with public opinion. When they try to impose radical change without public support or even understanding, it doesn't work. Like the "good" and egalitarian effort at equalizing wages by giving better wage awards to unions like HEU, which got destroyed by the Liberals because there was no public understanding of what the NDP government had been trying to accomplish.

Ah, the endless defeatism of the left, no wonder we lose so often when we should be winning! Want a winning campaign slogan for the ndp? Try "strong communities for a strong economy" a phrase that both counteracts campbell's lies that the reverse is true, and defends and distinguishes the ndp from the bc liars, whose attacks on communities have led us to the current economic mess. If only the left spent half the time discussing ways to win as opposed to whining about why we're going to lose...Ever hear of self-fullfilling prophecies? If we fight to win, we can win, remember the vancouver civic election? And I repeat the next election will be a referendum on gordon campbell's character, not carol james. Try rallying behind james for a change, instead of continually accenting the negative is my advice, let's fight canwest, not help them....it seems many people would rather be right than win the next election.

Here's my last posting over at the David Schreck thread: "This is rich: Over in the Carole James thread, I'm arguing with some guy who says "She shouldn't say anything to rock the boat....like Bennett...your answer to everything will be a simple phrase while smirking." Over here, he's Darth Vader. Here's a fact: Bill Bennett was the last premier to be re-elected in this province. He did so, against a hostile media, because the NDP had the albatross of public sector unions around its neck. That's Gordon Campbell's biggest asset today. Two more things: I was the first columnist to break open the Official Oppostion issue after the election. Re Mulroney, check out this book reviewed in last Saturday's Globe. (http://www.mqup.mcgill.ca/book.php?bookid=1759)"

Norman, there's nothing wrong with being allied with unions. Bennett demonized the NDP over it, as does every other politician who sees the NDP as their opponent. And yes he was re-elected but even he saw the writing on the wall after the big solidarity hulla-baloo. Fact is, I still recall people telling me the NDP would collectivize their farms like in the soviet union. And that was in Pitt Meadows and the Okanagan. If that's not demonizing your opponent I don't know what is.

Yeah, gee norm, I guess the sun, colonist and slobbince were bastions of liberal thought back when bill bennett ran for premier, like the way they are now, presumably? Give me a break!

Lewis, I don't think you're referrring to me but just in case. I think the NDP will be back in power as long as they stay off the front pages and as long as the Liberals ride the Campbell train. Don't rock the boat and simply smile and pretend you have the answer for everything. If you don't agree don't attack me personally, give me some evidence of where governments don't defeat themselves. Even very conservative Alberta ran Klein against Getty. Even lefty Saskatchewan elects somebody else every 10-15 years. Otherwise everything in your post I agree with, the next election is a referendum on Campbell, not James, she shouldn't switch that focus.

Hey frank it is the divide and conquer stuff, if you are miserable in your job underpaid with no appreciation it helps to have the evil unions to hate, the other grass being greener. The union movement had no choice in siding with the NDP if they wanted to survive, most of the buidling trades members were socred until bill got elected. Wacky bennet put everyone to work and most if not all of the big projects built under him were built union. The building trade unions were hiring halls who supplied their contractors with skilled workers properly trained to do their job, wacky had a lot to do with the very high level of training available to anyone who wanted a trade. Many of us were of the opinion billy attacked the building trades and shut down the rail plant in squamish (460 jobs) so kerkoff would have access to skilled union workers being starved into going non-union, and it worked! I suspect spector was involved in this attack on B.C. workers and families! Btw norm I voted for bill the first time. Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me...

"Coyote : true left-wing government, which is your desire doesn't come about at the ballot box." critiqued Frank."

Certainly that has been one of the lessons of history to here, to be sure. Which having been true, to my mind, doesn't indicate that it will always be so in all historical circumstances, or need be-, and I offer a current example of Venezuala, which to here has at least evolved "relatively" peacefully. (Though, no doubt, there is a special circumstance there, with large masses of people mobilized to defend the Chavez government's revolutionizing programme, and with the main elements of the army onside as well. But which still "suggests" that "peaceful", or at least "relatively peaceful" major changes in society "MAY" be possible in the emerging future. Though, one must ever be ready for a contest of "muscle" as well, and have other eggs in other baskets besides the simply "electoral" one.)

The problem with the NDP has always been, of course, that it has chosen to put all its eggs in the electoral basket, and has, in fact, largely used its dominant position in the trade union movement, for example, to reduce those class organizations effectively, to secondary "extensions" of the party electoral objectives and apparatus; as sources of support funds, campaign foot soldiers, and a backup instrument for the NDP. The potential independant role of the labour movement, its provincial and regional councils, as vehicles to mobilize and defend people's interests in their own right, has been subverted in fact to all practical effect, underline a sense of their futility, for the purpose of, so it seems to me, artificially foster an impression of "the party's" own indispensability. "Just elect the NDP, and all your problems will be resolved. There will be pie in the sky when you elect us." Both which objectives are now clearly revealed to have failed.

Only, with Carole, though actually beginning even before her time, the NDP doesn't even pretend to be offering pie anymore, but a simple, "Well, at least with us, matters won't deteriorate any further-, if we can help it."

By and large, I don't much disagree with you, Frank... Though in some details and emphasis, I do. And, after this long time of mine around the left and the trade union movement, I certainly don't expect the NDP to suddenly change its spots. Not really. (Indeed, Social Democracy everywhere, like Tony Blair, is moving ever more to the right.) But there does need to be a cogent and critical analysis of its history and role out there, because the NDP are not, quite frankly, in my view, though I am likely going to vote for them again, measure up to the task of the current period of decline within capitalism, and where the socio-economic trends of the period indicate we are headed for; deepening economic instability, further integration into U.S. economic ambitions on this continent, and the "corporate capitalist" model of globaliztion, characterized by plant and facility outsourcing to poor, low wage "off shore" areas, and the concomitant "standard of living" race to the bottom.

Given the NDPs expected historical role to here, their role will be to "attempt" to put a human face on that for capitalism.

So it is fundamentally my suggestion, Frank, that part of what the times call for, as this latest period of capitalist development, or decline if you will, rolls out, is frank talk amongst all the elements of the left. And while I appreiate your observation that the NDP is naught but Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition in waiting, for its turn to, at least appear to be "running capitalism" for the ruling class, though that is more appearance than reality, it needs to be said that, in this period where there are larger ruling class objectives than most appreciate right now, the NDP is neither ideologically nor practically equipped to make much of a real, let alone significant difference. Someone needs to say the obvious, I think. I find it difficult to breathe with my head in the sand.

That said, I concede that people's lives likely have a lot further to unravel, and that there will be even steeper declines in participation rates in the system. My friend KWD here, periodically likes to remind me that life and people's responses to it are all much about responses to pleasure and pain. (Which I think he sometimes applies a little "mechanistically", but still, is no less true.) For I much understand the delights of pleasure and its role as a reward for "correct action" in the grand scheme of things, and as well, the indispensible and inevitable role of pain, for not getting it right, and to correct an incorrect response.

I enjoy my friend Lewis Swift's boundless positive thinking, for example, however much I suspect it is more affected and hopeful than real, but my critical judgement just won't allow me to wander there, in that fairy garden. :-D

I don't mean to attack either you or coyote, frank, and you both should know by now I respect your posts -but don't you see what the right is trying to do with this thread, change the election from a referendum on gordon campbell to a referendum on carol james, and we don't need that...and if you keep letting them push this same button and get you to jump on the pile-on-james-bandwagon as well, you're just being played...but have it your way, if you must, and coyote I am far less in the realm of boundless positivism than you are in the realm of boundless negativism, and please don't just depend on the ndp, make an effort to build ndp support yourself...and I repeat, every time you help the right pile on carol james, regardless of the fact that you likely support the ndp, you are doping the rightr, not only a favor, but their work for them...

The above should read doing the right a favor, the right is dopey enough, already...

"I don't mean to attack either you or coyote, frank..." wrote Lewis.

Frank will speak for himself, of course, but neither is it my wish to attack you. There are disagreements on the left, always have been as long as I've been around, and we must allow room and respect for those to exist, as part of the overall creativity of "left" ideas and their development.

On the other hand, Lewis, those folks who know me best, would be surprised to hear me described as being possessed of "boundless pessimism", I am sure. Rather, I take life as it comes at me. generally quite cheerfully actually, though mayhaps a bit of a loner, with maybe, maybe a bit of a bad temper, and combative, and with a disinclination to be a joiner and a "true believer". You don't raise a large family and have a "reasonably" successful marriage, however, being an entire "negativist". Though I can see how you might take my insistance on making my own analysis, over following anybody's given "party line", as being "boundless negativism", especially if being a party loyalist is ones natural bent or desire.

In any case, I find these discussions useful, and respect yours and "most" of the other opinion here(non-Brownshirt), how e're contrary to my own.

Vick, agreed. divide and rule. That political strategy probably goes back to Ur and Ninevah. What frosts me is the constant attacks on unions and the left by smiling ideologues. Wacky Bennett would be spinning in his grave if he saw how many today say his economic policies would paint him as an NDP'er nowadays.

Lewis, I don't see what you said as an attack on me. The thing is, I'm not attacking Carole James. I don't believe I said anything negative about her unless you mean when I said real societal change doesn't come from voting NDP or anything else.

I don't have a problem with NDP supporters being positive. I tend to be a pretty positive small business guy and I vote NDP. Don't confuse theoretical political discussion and realpolitik strategy with thinking I'm depressed about the NDP's chances. I'm not.

What I am depressed about is the US takeover of 10,000 Canadian companies since free trade (Duncan Cameron on Rabble). I'm depressed about global warming. I'm depressed about the killing of children in Iraq and Israel by terrorists and counter-strikes. I'm depressed about the number of people in the world trying to survive by selling each other oranges. I'm depressed about the number of species facing extinction. When I look at my kids I wonder what kind of world they'll pass to their kids. I want real change and feel unable to do anything to bring it about. All of which has little if anything to do with Carole James.

Well, of course everyone has a right to their positivism or negativism, and I'm sure coyote, that your probably an upbeat guy, compared to me, and no doubt a much less angry one. The point I keep trying to make is that what you see on this thread is a major upcoming bc liberal election strategy: make the election about carol jame's character and not gordon campbell's. Personally I thought james was a good choice, and that her experience and smarts are at least up to campbell's whose only real talent is as a backstabber, proven by both his uncampaigned on agenda, and the way he gained control of the bc liberal party.

I get depressed too frank, and I'm not pointing at you, however, when I say at least until after the election, it would really help if people wpould a little more upbeat and positive, to not always talk as if we had little chance in the next election, or as if an ndp government would not be a major improvement over the liberals, but all some people seem to want to talk about is how we're probably going to lose, and well, hell, if we did win it'd probably be barely worth it anyway...now contrast this with the mindless, the glass is half full optimism of the right -which do you think ae an attitude is more effective at winning an election? Because you see the tyee could well have an effect on the next election...why not try and come up with ways to win, rather than how we're going to lose, and carol james is a good candidate, why not get behind her, because in politics a losing attitude often makes for a lost election, but again suit yourself, although I always thought theb way to win an election was to support your candidate, not help the right drag her down, but then, I guess, as you all know I'm just an excitable boy, as warren zevon had it...

" I want real change and feel unable to do anything to bring it about. All of which has little if anything to do with Carole James." wrote Frank.

Which about says it for me as well. A damn fine wee bit of writing, Frank. I just decided that you are probably a bit alright. :-) Regards, brother.

And I understand your concerns Lewis, but I really think they are misplaced. I know it is the nature of formal political structures to seek to be all upbeat and positive, and not infrequently turned about as a weapon to quell any serious discussion of policy and means as well, in my experience, but to me, it is always more important to be real. And the NDP is under no serious threat, nor any other left organization, from us being frank and open here. The threat is far greater that comes from seeking to shut down the free flow of ideas and debate on the left, and to impose a regime that would have us all speak in lip synch.

Now, time for me to make supper. We got a new Cuisineart rice cooker I'm anxious to try on some brown rice. (Brown rice always being a little more difficult to get "just right" than white rice, in my view.)

Once again, I don't want to shut down any debate -I just wanted to point out definitively that the way the right is attempting to leverage this thread is identical to the way they will attempt to leverage the next provincial election: by attemting to turn the election into a referendum on jame's character and abilities -which are more than adequate- rather than what we need to have it be a referendum on, ie, gordon campbell's abysmal record and tainted character and ethics, let's keep the referendum on gordon liar, where it belongs, although not at the expense of free speech...

For what its worth Lewis, I think James is the perfect NDP leader at this time. The antidote to Campbell. In fact, the contrast between this nice woman and the despised Campbell couldn't be more stark. She wasn't part of the last government so the fast ferry thing doesn't taint her. She's not an ideologue, she's not an in your face type like Glen Clark. Which I liked about Clark. Nobody not blinded by ideology could not help but like Carole James if they met her, again the contrast with Campbell is obvious. But after Clark and Campbell the voters of BC don't need a fight between two ideologues. I think they want some peace where the daily news isn't full of cuts, strikes, overblown rhetoric in the manner of "J'Accuse" etc. And I think James will provide that. She should play to her strengths, stay somewhat invisible but travel town to town and really meet people in the community halls and school gyms of the province. Those kinds of settings are where she performs well in my opinion and people will remember her at election time as they contemplate 4 more years of the BC version of Bush-Cheney. Let's face it, Ronnie Reagan didn't win a 2nd term because of his policies, he won because he seemed kind. Coyote, thanks, you're probably a wee bit alright too :) I'm sure it won't stop us from attacking each other over day to day tactics though :)

Narrow mindedness prevails at the extremes of the political spectrum. Neoconservative governments categorize small 'c' conservative governments and all parties to the left under socialism. In the same way, hardline NDP'ers like Lewis tend to paint all philosophies to the right with the same brush. Extreme philosophies can only survive with their opposites being the main opposition. To break this cycle requires the emergence of an open minded middle of the road party. Don't think that Ralph Klein, Mike Harris and Gordon Campbell haven't appreciated the NDP as their main opposition. Hardline NDP'ers on here have painted Harper's Alliance and Martins Liberals with the same brush, with seemingly no understanding that it is only because of the Liberals, that Spephen Harper is not running this country. The NDP in Manitoba just won a second term only because the party saw the big picture, and realized that if they wanted to carry out 'some' of their policies, they would have to move more toward the middle to get elected.

Will for Premier: I think it's "because of" the federal Liberals that Stephen Harper almost won the top job of running this country.

lynn - Who do you think would have kept them out, if not the Liberals? Sure, the federal Liberals have moved somewhat to the right, probably a necessary move to eat into the small 'c' conservative voters, whom otherwise would have gone to the Alliance. As I said, sometimes you have to sacrifice something to get anything, and to ward off something much worse.

"I'm sure it won't stop us from attacking each other over day to day tactics though :)" replied Frank.

About which you can certainly expect to be proven right, this tactical piece being your latest offering. :-)

More NDP "bland", especially in a "non-threatening" female form, may indeed be the answer, if the objective is merely to "sneak" by the electorate and into power "one more time". It may just work, on the lesser of evils level of choices most folks generally feel compelled to make each ritual go around.

But again, like I say, "Yawn!", to what good purpose, other than to underline one more time, the fact that it is a mere temporary way station, a brief respite from the pace of social deterioration, resumed and on its way down again, once it becomes clear one more time, that the NDP has run out of ideas as well, on how to seriously deal with this "new stage" of capitalist development.

It "MAY" work, yet one more time, I grant, from the classic "opportunist" perspective, of merely looking to success at "the next election" game, and set of "career moves", but its a vacuous game in the process of playing itself out and, in the end, likely to be exposed for what it really is; a part of the problem of the historical period. Conceding, to be sure, sometimes that being an important part of the process too, of making who and what clear, and as such, of necessity to be gotten through.

This next election is already beginning to have a strange and deeply cynical atmosphere about it-, that may, just may backfire on the best laid plans of the RDP, errr, NDP wiggle and jiggle, slither and slide strategists.

What I was trying to say was that the failures of the federal Liberals actually made a loopy party like the Alliance look good enough to govern this country. That said, I think Chretien deserves much credit for keeping this country out of Iraq and I like his grittiness both against the US and when the going gets tough. Still, I think his and the Liberal party's greatest failure was not the sponsorship scandal but their failure to defend the idea of a strong federal government against the increasing "all about me" threats of the provinces - resulting in a strong turn towards the americanization of our country through privatization and the diminishment of our national health care system.

When you consistently compromise your principles whether you be liberal, conservative, or ndp, the result is, that inevitably one day some guy who ordinarily wouldn't even be allowed to wade in political waters shows up in a wetsuit riding a skidoo, believing he can steer the big ship - all the while creating one embarassing but still lethal wave to a country after another. Just look south of our border for more evidence of this same phenomena.

Not easy to type and stuff a turkey at the same time...hope this makes sense.

Sorry, forgot to include... my above comment is to "Will for Premier".

"to what good purpose, other than to underline one more time, the fact that it is a mere temporary way station, a brief respite from the pace of social deterioration" Aye, that's the rub isn't it? I agree, its only a temporary respite. Not only does it not recover ground, it doesn't even stop things from getting worse, just at a slower pace provincially.

Suffice to say the big and important battles are not fought at the Canadian provincial level so in that sense it doesn't matter. Unfortunately I believe the NDP and Trudeau Liberals are just better at putting a nicer face on a clearly destructive system.

But on this somewhat meaningless provincial level I still believe Carole can win if she plays to her strengths and Gordon's weaknesses and lets history take care of the rest.

And on that note here's another thought. Somewhat convoluted but what the heck. Let's say you're a left-wing Frenchman in 1870. Your great leader is none other than Napoleon III who loves to spend the treasury on lavish masquerade parties, mistresses, foreign wars and Expo. Sound familiar? He's an idiot and he has to go. The Prussians are under the very unfunny Moltke and Bismarck. But as the war reaches the decisive battle of Gravellote-St.Privat who do you cheer for? Your heart may cheer on your chassepot-wielding brethren but deep down you know that if you win, Napoleon III will come out of this stronger than ever whereas if you lose it will bring on his ruin and the collapse of his entire system. Following that you will get first the Republic and then the Commune.

Now if I'm there, I'm cheering on the Prussians quietly. Doesn't mean I can bring myself to vote for Gordo, Harper or even cheer for Bush but I think their policies make a destructive system even worse and will hurry on its collapse even faster than voting NDP.

Bruce Little reports more bad news for Carole James today, in a non-CanWest paper: Indeed, there's been a sharp western shift in Canadian jobs over the past three years, one concentrated in British Columbia, which has finally shucked off the weak showing that plagued the province through most of the 1990s, and Alberta. An easy way to compare the provinces' record [on employment creation] is to look at their share of all Canada's jobs. Reading these numbers is simple: A rising share means that employment in a province has risen faster than the national average; a falling share means a province has failed to keep pace with the rest of the country. B.C. is a standout winner by this measure. In the third quarter, 12.94 per cent of all Canadian jobs were located in the province, up from 12.7 per cent at the end of 2001.

Please see my complete, accurate and total rebuttal to norman spectre on the shreck thread to norman's nearly identical post there, unlike the spectral norm, I believe that duplicate posts indicate laziness and an essentially flawed character.

Will, the day of the compassionate conservative is as dead as your lifeless prose. The last red tory in canada was joe clark, who very accurately warned against the monolithic lack of both real morality and democracy in neoconservativism, a policy that infects the federal liberals only slightly less than harper's conservatives, however much they may try to hide it. And it was PRECISELY the aim of neoconservative ideology to insure absolute uniformity of point of view, an aim in which they have largely been successful. Neoconservative ideology is remarkably simple in its mindlessness and can be distilled as: if it's good for the rich then it's good for you too, everybody's stealing from you BUT the rich, and if we give the rich even more power and unearned privelege, then the benefits will rain down on us all...well, the benefits have been rainin' down for some time now, and while they may be golden, they're certainly NOT money, if you follow my drift...compassionate conservativism is simply neoliberal speak for destroy the social safety net, and let the churches give the poor three day old hot dog soup and a flea-ridden cot for six hours if the temperature falls below minus twenty.

Frank, and coyote, eloquent analogies, but once again you both seem to be saying it will barely make a difference if campbell is reelected, let me reiterate once again that I too am dissappointed that the ndp must occupy the middle ground in order to regain power, but to say that campbell's reelection will not make that much of a difference once again strikes me as both ludicrous and bad strategy to boot. Here is what British Columbians will almost certainly face if campbell is reelected: the irreversable loss of both bc hydro and icbc with $5000 a year car insurance and quadrupled hydro rates quickly becoming the norm; the total rewriting of our legal code in bc so that it benefits the wealthy to a shocking degree of bias -you can see the trend in this by the bc liar's attempts to reform civil law, their law cutbacks, and in the weaselly behavior of geoff plant ever since the bc liars were elected; the complete gutting of what remains of bc 's social safety net; the complete handover of all social transfers to big business as outright gifts, and last, but not least, the creation of a massive olympic debt at taxpayer expense designed to hobble social responsibility and human decency in this province forever...sounds a little worse than a middle of the road ndp government, doesn't it? To use your analogy frank, we can't afford to wait until bc or paris is burning, to get rid of these parasites, the bc liberals. Lynn Smith, I found your analysis of the federal liberals spot on...

On behalf of the Alliance party Norman, thanks for your many counter attacks against the Socialists (anti neoconservatives) contributing on here.

"Not easy to type and stuff a turkey at the same time...hope this makes sense." by Lynn.

Too much good writing and many good ideas to do justice to, here today, being a busy kitty covering poop myself. So I will just do my genuflections to Lynn above, of course, always lucid, principled and with good solid depth to her analyses.

And Frank, I think Lewis and your own most recent piece above has actually helped me see, that we share more of a view and from a shared analytical viewpoint, than we differ-, even day to day tactically. We just come at it differently sometimes. Good piece, with which I do not significantly disagree.

And Lewis, you are in part right, of course. Though, what I am really more saying, again not speaking for Frank, is that I don't think electing the NDP will really make much of a difference to outcomes here, and that is subtly but importantly different than saying, don't vote NDP, or Campbell being re-elected will barely make a difference.

I think that the NDP being re-elected, yet one more time, is probably "relatively" important, in part because they MAY marginally give us a temporary breather, at least from the pace of social deterioration under the Neocon Liberals, and because, I "think", it is probably part of a historical process of folks coming to understand the "limits" of the usefulness of the NDP, with its Social Democratic ideology and programme.

Conversely, however, should that fail to happen, because folks have already "instinctively" come to know that, or for whatever other reasons, the Liberals do come back to power, while certainly not a good thing, is not an entire "negative" either, in the Big Picture-, for it will actually hasten the social disintegration of the immediate postwar society, and work in quite another way, involving yet more "pain" to be sure, to stimulate a more appropriate response, or learned behaviour, on the part of larger numbers of people. And to be clear, I AM NOT ADVOCATING THAT. I am merely saying that , objectively, the process of "transformative" social change is typically preceded by a relatively prolonged period of "pain" that acts upon and changes people's thinking and the way they see their social relationships and roles; in effect, their "politics".

In short, IF I am right, all roads from here, by whatever political vehicle travelled, NDP or Liberal, lead in the same essential direction. And that is because of the more important underlying reality, that changes have been initiated within the larger "capitalist system", by its ruling class of wealthy and powerful economic elites, beginning from about the late 70's, through their "mouthpieces" in the persons of Thatcher in England, Reagan in the U.S., Klein in Alberta, Harris in Ontario, Bill Bennet Junior in B.C., and of late Gordon Campbell, to transform capitalism into a globally integrated, lean and "mean" socio-economic system, reversing the organized working class social and economic gains of the immediate post WW2. That process with NAFTA and all the other global agreements that have been cut between states and corporations, though signs of strain are emerging as a result of unilateral U.S. actions, nonetheless continues apace, and will, regardless of who sits in the governing party benches in the next BC Legislature. They are only the nominal rulers of society, in any case. The real rulers do so from corporate board rooms, outside these "formal" democratic processes. And the former will always tend to bend to the latter, unless you have a quite different social and ideological dynamic at work than currently prevails within most politically ritualized, "advanced" capitalist societies.

That is why I say, the really important and driving decisions are not being made in the BC Legislature anyway, regardless of who holds what "formal" power positions or benches, be it NDP or Liberal. (Which is not to say they have zero influence.) That is largely a figmentary creation, towards which "the masses" attentions and illusions can be focussed, to take the blame and hold out the false hopes for what actually takes place elsewhere, in secret, in a boardroom, or over cigars with good port, or maybe a good single malt and a round of golf in a very exclusive club.

So, we do not so much disagree in any major way, Lewis, but in what importance or weight we attach to some of the pieces that are in play on the board. I hope Carole and the NDP win. They MAY do less harm, over the short term.

I am watching Gary "the ferret" Collins on Voice of BC this week and hearing him lie about employment and people moving into BC. Jock Finlayson poses beach ball questions. Is it fair to say that 60 to 70% of what they are saying are deceptive lies?

Are the people of BC are stupid enough to vote for these reprobates? They are extreme right-wing morons. Go ahead and dismiss me for calling them a name. The BC Liberal government is on a par for stupidity with Ralph Klein, Ronald Reagan, and Mike Harris.

Harcourt's NDP government took over a $2.8 MILLION deficit from the BC Liberals (back when they called themselves the Social Credit Party). The NDP did have to make relatively small cutbacks and allowed the growing economy to take care of the rest of the Socred deficit. The NDP balanced budget was real despite all of the dim-witted nonsense coming from the extreme right-wing Gary Collins. Nonsense about a resource boom during the NDP government. The Liberals have benefited from record resource payouts as well and no one is going around calling them bogus surpluses. The BC Liberals are not capable of managing the financial resources of BC. They are in the business of enriching themselves and their friends.

Mr Harper, if that is indeed your real name :) You don't need Norman to throw out insults and copy-and-paste one-liners. You can form your own opinions and post them. I'm not going to call you names for expressing them.

If you think its a major accomplishment to go from 12.7 to 12.9&, or whatever, then fine, tell us why. I think that that difference is so small and the year it begins with (2001) is so significant economically that the stat is meaningless garbage.

But if you look to Norman for inspiration, please read the article linked from his own web site

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/environment/story.jsp?stor y=570734

and let us know your thoughts. You may love the idea of rugged individualism and capitalism in its most laissez-faire form but don't let the day to day fighting with the BC left blind you to what's happening globally. I think global warming is going to end capitalism and change society. Better to talk about how to either save it or what we're going to do to survive it. But ignoring it is the worst possible scenario.

Lewis, This election will be significant for many people living here. Like you say, under Campbell, auto-insurance rates will rise, poverty and income disparity will grow, privatization will continue etc. No question. I will vote for Carole James because I hate seeing married couples split up in old folks homes and the ongoing incompetence of the ministry of children and families. I would vote for Carole even if all I got out of it was never again seeing Campbell do his stage act where he walks up and down and waves his arms like a PNE vendow.

But in the big picture, what do I care if I my insurance rises to $5,000 a year if at the same time a glass of water is costing me $5 and there's no ice in the arctic and Ozzy Jurock is hawking beachfront property on Baffin Island?

Perspective is all I'm saying.

Coyote, agreed. NAFTA and WTO and Bretton Woods and Kyoto etc are more important overall. Using the world like a giant strip mine is the problem whether the miners are unionized in some spots or not.

To the Editor : I would like to offer the following comments. From a Region which traditionally voted CCF/NDP I would like to make reference to two recent decisions made by two MLA's . One a very high profiled Cabinet Minister and the other from a " ground perspective " , a - THE youngest serving MLA in the legislature - future politician , as did the higher profiled one.. , QUIT! As you might or might not know it , this particular region also held the votes that made Dave Barret the first Premier ever elected by the NDP. Another interesting bit of information ... , was the defeat of that individual , as with the defeat of his government circa 1975. Is this a bellweather constituency?... time will tell .. Perhaps a review of the HISTORICAL POLITICAL PERSPECTIVE and ROAD TRAVELLED ( Politically speaking ) of a PROVINCE like no other would serve the readers of the TYEE... ANYBODY UP TO THE TASK?

" Using the world like a giant strip mine is the problem whether the miners are unionized in some spots or not." says Frank.

And from the position of a unionized worker throughout "most" of my working life, and one who at least highly values the "potential" role of unions of workers in society, and the fight to transform it, I agree with that statement, without reservation.

Coyote, Lewis, and Frank: Great to read all your comments and very interesting, perceptive discussion by all.

I agree that political transformation, like personal transformation, unfortunately usually involves much pain. Most of us have probably suffered through a few of those transformative "dark, bumpy nights of the soul" in our lives and we are no doubt finer for them, which I think is your point, Coyote.

However, Frank, I think it is the times that we live in now that make a total collapse of the system much more treacherous than ever before. Mel Hurtig has an extremely important new book out "Rushing to Armageddon". Briefly, the main idea is that we are merely lucky to have escaped a nuclear conflict during the Cold War and that the United States' obsessive fascination with the weaponization of space will be the most dangerous road ever travelled by mankind. Hurtig is furious at Paul Martin's and Bill Graham's (Minister of Defence) deferral to the US in the promotion of the missile shield (which he compares to the Maginot line). Hurtig states that it is vital we protest and stop the weaponization of space now. We must also retrieve the nukes( much, much more lethal now than the ones dropped on Hiroshima and Nagaski), and presently guarded by Russian officers making $3 dollars a week, before they fall into terrorist hands and are smuggled into the continental US and detonated in a major city - really, the end of humanity as we know it and a world held hostage. Hurtig's book is an enraged, eloquent outcry that we stop the denial, pay attention and take action.

Now what has this to do with Carole James? Well, it is the small careful or careless steps we take now that are going to tip the canoe one way or the other. We are buying time - time to stall the americanization of our province and the militarization of our world - time to take action against those who would run rough-shod over us and time to allow room for those whose steps though measured are measured with decency and caring. Those small steps could make a difference and buy precious time when there is little time left.

Allowing the gung-ho Campbell americanization of our province to proceed ( another vote for Star Wars) in the hope that it's collapse will happen sooner than later (in order to start anew again) is really betting big odds, Frank, against the possibility of a nuclear event with a "Fatter Man" and a "Bigger Boy" this time round.

We live in the most dangerous of times. I'm not naive enough to believe everything a politician says but right now the small indications of their character is all what we've got to go on. The quieter James in her rare political decency may outrace, in the end, the rah-rah, empty- souled cheerleader Campbell. What Mel Hurtig is telling us is that the choices we make now are significant ones in effecting the neo-conservative agenda of militarization and endless war. All our fine dreams for medicare or education won't mean a damn if we're blown to smithereens first. As Canadians, Hurtig says we must speak up for international peace against those in the US who see only war. In Gordon Campbell's office he has a picture of himself standing in front of the US congress...a small difference,perhaps...but Ms. James does not.

good post lynn, I find gordo to be a real bushite neo-con who tho born in this country is a real american at heart didn't he go to school in the states, I have read that his heroes are reagon and thatcher, judging by his sale of b.c. asssets to his american friends I have no doubt he has a picture of himself standing in front of the u.s. congress. He even hired an american to run b.c. ferries into the ground. Btw my heroes are all canadians and he sure as hell isn't one of them, oh contrare. One day he will be just another has been wallowing in past glories while true canadians will speak of him in the same context as we do spectors old pal mulrooney! Carol james is a saint compared to gordo! Like how many premiers have been stopped for driving while pissed drunk?

Thanks, Vick. I apologize for the length of that piece. I didn't intend it to be that long - but Hurtig's book is moving in it's plea. All I'm trying to say is that the entwining of Canada with the US, that americanization of our country that is being led by so many of our neo-conservative provincial governments, like the Campbell liberals, has not only social repercussions, but in this most dangerous of times has the potential to topple all our dominoes of peace one by one across this country as Canada loses it's voice as an international peacekeeper through a growing identification of our neo-con provincial governments with the US and thus with it's present philosophy of endless war.

The BC Liberals offered to let James run unopposed. She would not have lost.

Adam : That's because the Liberals want her to be front and centre so they can pin voting records on her and such.

Lynn, no argument from here and I'm not advocating waiting for Paris to burn so that people will wake up. And yes I don't like the odds of surviving to rebuild :)

I'm hoping Kerry beats Bush, not because I see Kerry as a modern-day Pericles but because the US is the most influential member of the world club. The only one that can freely invade other countries. Stopping the extreme right-wing agenda in the US is very important and with Kerry and Martin in the seats of power that's an improvement over Bush-Harper. Lulu in Brazil and the Venezuelan paratrooper (whose name escapes me) are all good things too. James instead of Campbell would also be an improvement.

But the system itself has to be changed. I believe in trade and I believe in an inter-connected world. But I don't believe in the current form of globalization which is not based on raising people up its based on exploitation. Obviously I think there's too many people chasing too few resources too. But I agree that although a provincial election can't help any of this, at least it helps with many local problems such as saving salmon and wildlife habitat and easing the lives of the most exposed in BC.

By the way, I read the Peak and I assume that's you I've seen pop up there in the Letters :)

Certainly I will be voting for Carole James and the NDP...and if elected I am confident it will indeed herald a positive change from the draconian American neo-con ideology that 'soup & co' have adopted hook, line and sinker...and whic has destroyed not only the social safety net in BC --but also many elements of the BC economy. But I'm also for some structural change too. I would like to see more economic democracy in this province. For one instance, there is no reason why ICBC could not be made a co-operative, and with its $6 billion dollar reserves fuel even more development of the co-op sector in BC. Rather that corporations getting preferential treatment when they bid for government contracts, or timber licences,etc. why not preferential treatment by gov't for co-ops of workers, municipalities, consumers,etc. I especially would like to see more co-ops active in the social and health sectors to start with...co-ops where both workers and receipients of social/health care belong to the same co-op and both form part of the management of the co-op. i.e the Nelson Health co-op being a model...a model that regretfully was turned down by the Interior Health Authority. Further, with respect to 'structural change' - I would like to see more equity between the rural regions of BC...and the Coast. There is a long-standing financial and political imbalance of power in this province. The rural regions and their workers historically have contributed trillions to provincial coffers with minimal returns to their regions financially or politically---instead they have borne the brunt of the cut-backs and off-loadings. It is not fair...it certainly is not just. Reversing the flow of capital back to those regions...will allow the regions to chart their own development path and thereby not only pay off the social & environmental debt that the 'coast' owes them, but also, by more balanced development in the rural regions, it may contribute to reversing rural-urban migration, and ease some of the settlement problems that the GVRD has. Also, with regards to deeper structural change in BC which may take several generations to achieve ...I would like to see less power centralized in the Premier's office, and less power within the Centralized Crown. Equity/Justice does not flow where power is centralized so absolutely...neither does democracy prosper under such a regieme. There is no reason, in this modern age, that the Crown should own all lands & resources of this province, and collect virtually all taxes (even traffic fines...which is absurd) subject to underlying title by First Nations. Soverignity ought to vest in the people of the province and not the Crown. Executive Federalism which empowers too much financial/political power in the Premier & Prime Minister's office needs, in my view, to be dispensed with. Canada, needs a People's Constitution written by an elected constitutional constituent assembly...and we could start by writing one for British Columbia. Indeed a constitution for BC, could allocate more evenly power that Victoria has, the regions and muncipalities have. Within such an internal constitution could be a 'social charter' ..that gives legal rights to BC citizens & responsibilities, as well as requiring the state to fulfill certain obligations towards citizens (health, education, etc) and the environment. Without fundamental 'change' ...the neo-cons will win, even though we might gain a temporary reprieve with the election of Carole James and the NDP. "Soup & co" have gotten away with it...because the 'rules of the games' have institutional vested power in the Crown, and the Ministers of the Crown, especially the Premier. The rules need to be changed, regretably I see no one, excepting myself, articulating in some detail, these intellectual concepts, perhaps the internet will prove me wrong??? Finally, in my view, it should be illegal for both business and labor unions to make financial contributions to political parties...and their rights to do 3rd party advertising should also be severely curtailed. Democracy is a citizen right...not the right of a corporation or labor union.

Strange ...that the editor ...edited out this comment. ...here it is again! Certainly I will be voting for Carole James and the NDP...and if elected I am confident it will indeed herald a positive change from the draconian American neo-con ideology that 'soup & co' have adopted hook, line and sinker...and whic has destroyed not only the social safety net in BC --but also many elements of the BC economy. But I'm also for some structural change too. I would like to see more economic democracy in this province. For one instance, there is no reason why ICBC could not be made a co-operative, and with its $6 billion dollar reserves fuel even more development of the co-op sector in BC. Rather that corporations getting preferential treatment when they bid for government contracts, or timber licences,etc. why not preferential treatment by gov't for co-ops of workers, municipalities, consumers,etc. I especially would like to see more co-ops active in the social and health sectors to start with...co-ops where both workers and receipients of social/health care belong to the same co-op and both form part of the management of the co-op. i.e the Nelson Health co-op being a model...a model that regretfully was turned down by the Interior Health Authority. Further, with respect to 'structural change' - I would like to see more equity between the rural regions of BC...and the Coast. There is a long-standing financial and political imbalance of power in this province. The rural regions and their workers historically have contributed trillions to provincial coffers with minimal returns to their regions financially or politically---instead they have borne the brunt of the cut-backs and off-loadings. It is not fair...it certainly is not just. Reversing the flow of capital back to those regions...will allow the regions to chart their own development path and thereby not only pay off the social & environmental debt that the 'coast' owes them, but also, by more balanced development in the rural regions, it may contribute to reversing rural-urban migration, and ease some of the settlement problems that the GVRD has. Also, with regards to deeper structural change in BC which may take several generations to achieve ...I would like to see less power centralized in the Premier's office, and less power within the Centralized Crown. Equity/Justice does not flow where power is centralized so absolutely...neither does democracy prosper under such a regieme. There is no reason, in this modern age, that the Crown should own all lands & resources of this province, and collect virtually all taxes (even traffic fines...which is absurd) subject to underlying title by First Nations. Soverignity ought to vest in the people of the province and not the Crown. Executive Federalism which empowers too much financial/political power in the Premier & Prime Minister's office needs, in my view, to be dispensed with. Canada, needs a People's Constitution written by an elected constitutional constituent assembly...and we could start by writing one for British Columbia. Indeed a constitution for BC, could allocate more evenly power that Victoria has, the regions and muncipalities have. Within such an internal constitution could be a 'social charter' ..that gives legal rights to BC citizens & responsibilities, as well as requiring the state to fulfill certain obligations towards citizens (health, education, etc) and the environment. Without fundamental 'change' ...the neo-cons will win, even though we might gain a temporary reprieve with the election of Carole James and the NDP. "Soup & co" have gotten away with it...because the 'rules of the games' have institutional vested power in the Crown, and the Ministers of the Crown, especially the Premier. The rules need to be changed, regretably I see no one, excepting myself, articulating in some detail, these intellectual concepts, perhaps the internet will prove me wrong??? Finally, in my view, it should be illegal for both business and labor unions to make financial contributions to political parties...and their rights to do 3rd party advertising should also be severely curtailed. Democracy is a citizen right...not the right of a corporation or labor union.

My apologies..to the editor...I was mistaken...I forgot to refresh my page...there was no editing by anyone! Alas, we are all human here!

Frank : I was mearly commenting to the articles claim that she might have lost. All this carful dodging by the leader seems to suggest she is afraid of her record.(I would be too if i was a 90's NDP) Instead she gets to parade around the provice saying something to one community and something else to another community and neither end up being the wiser because neither actually care.

Adam, understood. And I can see why that impression would be made. And if this byelection was 2 years ago I would say James should run. However, with less than a year to go to the election and it not being a safe seat for the NDP, I don't see why she would. As for saying different things, I'm sure Can-West would love to catch her on that if she really did do that :)

What record is that, adam? The record of three ndp balanced budgets and of economic growth that frequently topped 4%, unlike the dismal economic growth, only predicted by bc liar spindoctors of less than 3%?

A hopeful sign, quite literally: the ndp are beginning to place large billboards around the lower mainland, like the one I saw last night, detailing the number of schools closed by the bc liars, about 125, and the 2500 teachers laid off to pay for the taxcut for those that least need it, that has done absolutely NOTHING for the economy. The ndp should place hundreds of such billboards around the province, ESPECIALLY in the lower mainland, to counteract "DECEIVE BC," bc liar b.s.

Hey Lewis - how about a record of pharmacare cuts, increased raw log exports, Gustafsen Lake, a general lack of vision to ones own political end which could have been circumvented by electoral reform - need I go on ? The lack of vision shown by the NDP in their final days shows me [and many other x NDP'ers] that nothing has changed within the party - the choice of James as leader gives us further fuel to stay away. Adriane Carr has good reasons to run in this by-election, if memory serves Tommy Douglas and Dave Barratt did the same thing at one point. This banter about the BC Greens being right-wing is inaccurate to say the least, just further evidence that you don't get it. There are big differences between the BC provincial Greens and the federal Greens. The respective leaders come from totally different backgrounds, the reality that they might have have a lot of common ground is obviously beyond comprehension for numerous contributors here. Please explain why the BC Greens were out on the MayDay parade or at the stopwar rallies. Calling the BC Greens right wing is a feeble attempt to make yourselves feel better for backing the wrong horse all these years.

rockerbiff asks "Please explain why the BC Greens were out on the MayDay parade or at the stopwar rallies." The answer can be conveniently located in the definition of the word "Opportunism". I attended these events, and the participation of the Greens was limited to promoting themselves, in much the same way they used the anti-Liberal rallies in early 2002 to sign up petitioners to bypass the Citizens Assembly on Electoral Reform and force a referrendum on their own model for proportional representation. Now, for bonus points, can you explain: 1. Why the BC Greens supported taking away the right of teachers to strike during the 2001 election? 2. Adrianne Carr's comment on pay equity during the 2001 leaders debate "Unlike some parties, we trust business to do the right thing."? 3. Running candidates like Evelyn Kirkaldy in North Vancouver-Seymour, who in conversation, related that she would support revoking 1996 anti-scab legislation and implementing Right-to-Work legislation. 4. The lack of a labour or socialist caucus in the BC Green Party? 5. The silence from Carr when thousands of jobs were cut from the public sector in January of 2002, including the former ENVRIONMENT Ministry? 6. Why Stuart Parker and other prominent Greens left the party? This isn't to pick another fight with the Greens, because in reality, it's just the same fight all over again. However, showing up at May Day (give or take the focus on HEU) and Stop War aren't ideological purity tests, they're not necessarily events that are exclusive to left-leaning progressives, and by that I mean people who advocate (in no particular order): -public health care and education -the social safety net -strong unions -a healthy environment The Greens have not shown any consistency in promoting these values, which is while referring to them as a right wing might be an overstatment, I continue to support the NDP. I want a government that protects my public sector union job, makes sure that there's affordable, reliable public transit so I can get to that job, and helps the homeless so they don't have to beg from me as I'm trying to catch transit to get to my job. This is what's important to me, is it important to the Green Party? Do the Greens offer coherent, equitable solutions that don't favour one strata of society over another, like consumption taxes or back to work legislation? I'm not prepared to label all Greens as right wing, but from what I've seen out of Adrianne Carr so far, I'm more than prepared to agree to disagree.

Frank : The Liberals offered her the seat saying they would not run a candidate It would have been a safe seat for her. Lewis : When you have less kids in school you need less staff what do you expect ? the numbers of school aged kids in Canada is going down not up, are we just supposed to keep these people in empty class rooms ? Lewis: a team of monkeys could "balance" budgets if they are allowed to raid ICBC and Hydro like a piggybank Wern't all your "balanced budgets" election years?

But Adam, didn't that riding vote something like 70% Liberal? The Libs can't stop other right-wingers running there or that 70% from voting for them. I would say that seat is anything but safe. Would be a huge political problem for James if she ran unopposed by the Libs and lost to BC Unity or something :) And for what? So she can sit in the legislature for at most a couple of months without status as leader of the Official Opposition? It would be pointless and risky. Most political party leaders have run in by-elections where the voters in that riding can be counted on to back them and they've had a sizeable party to lead when they get there. James would have neither. Better to rebuild the party than walk into a setup like that.

" I'm not prepared to label all Greens as right wing, but from what I've seen out of Adrianne Carr so far, I'm more than prepared to agree to disagree." wrote Bear604.

Good post Bear604. While I as well, am not prepared to label ALL members of the Green Party as "rightwing", for there are certainly those in the NDP I've encountered over the years who could equally as well be described in that context, in the trade union movement as well, for that matter, I agree that the Greens have not been "consistently" progressive enough that I am ready to throw my vote to them. Adrienne Carr especially, over the years I've been following her, has demonstrated, as you indicate, a remarkable degree of anti-labour and anti-poor insensitivity.

What decided it for me, with Adrienne, was being caught up in a long and particularly nasty strike on the side of CAW, as a transit bus driver, against the Transit Board led by Puil. And at the height of that strike, when matters looked the bleakest for us, and under threat of de-unionization and the contracting out of our livelihoods to Bonny's Taxi, Carr came down on the side of Puil and Co., advocating the removal of our right to strike. She effectively advocated for us becoming "public slaves" as opposed to "public workers with rights". (You know, the old, "They're public servants." With the emphasis on SERVANTS.) It played right into the hands of those out to destroy "public" responsible transit.

You Greens dump the "elitist" Ms Carr, along with the "progressive conservative" leader of the Federal Greens, and demonstrate some serious committment to left-progressive policies, and the needs and wishes of ordinary folks over the ruling elites, and I'm prepared to give you a more favourable consideration. Seriously. Until then, I feel more comfortable with the Devil I know, as uncomfortable and insecure as that makes me feel in the prevailing social climate.

bear604 - I've been to the last three BC Fed conferences on the political action day, I am former VP of CUPE 3338, I hear a lot of talk about spreading political wings but no real action, unless you count Dave Haggard running for the Liberals. You should see the looks I get when I wear my GP pins to this event :-) So the Greens are opportunists for attending MayDay and stopwar but for the NDP/COPE to do so it is what ? For Jack Layton to make a speech at the stopwar event is opportunism in it purest form. You should have seen the sly looks Carr got from the who's who of the NDP on March 20. Stuart Parker left the party because he could not envision a Green Party without him as leader, his Green Party no longer exists as it did then. What the hell does "constantly progressive" mean ? Regardless of how you interpret what Carr has done for you - have you read any GP policy on labour or poverty ? The NDP policy on social issues is mileage, mileage, mileage. If the social issue does not fit the NDP agenda it is not a worthy social cause. Look at the stopwar/MAWA split as a prime example. If the NDP are so anti-war how come they support only one of these groups ? [the one organised by labour] ? Coyote - you must have the wrong Adriane Carr. Adriane's stand on the bus strike was in the public interest after the ongoing stalemate between the CAW and the employer and a lack of vision from the NDP. A 4 month bus strike came about because the NDP were shit scared of losing even more votes b 4 an election. Sorry I can't put left and progressive in the same sentence without a major twinge, there is nothing progressive about lefty politics in this province. The lefty politics I have seen here is nothing more than a tool to promote the status quo, which in iteself is ok, but call it what it is. "left - status quo" policies might be more accurate.

Good one Rockerbiff. At least made clear. I'm not even going to bother mixing it with you here, because I think you've made it all amply obvious enough, such that there's no need. (Though I do agree actually, that the NDP is really "status quo" politics, and so are most trade unions really. It's just that, so is The Greens. So it comes down to that "devil in the details" and choosing the "lesser of evils" thing again.

We'll simply agree then, to disagree, brother. (And I'm a long ways away from an NDP stalwart. My vote is always up for grabs, and never really decided until I'm in the polling station with pencil and ballot in hand, frankly. To the degree that voting is even a major issue, though I generally do vote, largely from habit and clinging to wan hopes. :-)

good points bear, and yes coyote there were a lot of trade unionist voting to the right of center but I doubt they are now! Most of the right winger I know in the trades feel betrayed and stabbed in the back.

good points bear, and yes coyote there were a lot of trade unionist voting to the right of center but I doubt they are now! Most of the right winger I know in the trades feel betrayed and stabbed in the back.

oops sorry about the double post didn't see the first time it loaded was blank so I submitted the page again...:(

A few points: Carr's position on the transit strike was back-to-work legislation, period. Not arbitration, not final offer arbitration, not mediator Vince Ready's report, just force the operators to take what the employer was offering. Maybe the position was more nuanced than that, but that's not what was communicated. There's a fine line between acting in the public interest and pandering to anger and frustration as the result of a labour dispute. There's a big difference between Jack Layton speaking at the StopWar rally and the Greens appearance - Jack Layton leads a party which opposes the war in Iraq and has Members of Parliament who worked to prevent Canada's participation in the war. rockerbiff - We appear to travel in similar circles as I'm active with CUPE 2950, and I can imagine how you feel about CUPE BC's overwhelming support for Carole James and the NDP at our convention this year. However, I'm curious as to how you perceive what's happening in the relationship between the NDP and the labour movement, and among the labour movement in general. I've found that a lot of Greens (like Kirkaldy) cut their anti-union teeth on the IWA and other private sector unions that held sway during the Glen Clark era. Since the fallout of the Liberals assault on the HEU and the IWA yellow-dog contracts that followed, it's not like CUPE and other public sector unions are enamoured with the IWA anymore. Since IWA's merger with USWA, private sector unions are increasingly ambivalent towards putting pension funds in companies involved in P3s. THIS AN ISSUE OF SEISMIC PROPORTIONS THAT WOULD REALIGN THE LABOUR MOVEMENT AND THE LEFT AS WE KNOW IT, especially if James and the NDP don't come down on the right side of this issue. (capitals used for emphasis and to make sure you're paying attention...)

I can't believe I actually read/scanned all of the posts. I like this discussion , the libs are in trouble and their supporters know it. - Frank , I agree with your position on Carole James and keeping a low profile. the media in this province are already taunting her to declare her platform and her personal statements on issues.The minute she does they will make mincemeat of her, that is the point of calling her out. Carole is smart to set her own timetable and to time her platform release closer to the election. -The premise of the article is that Carole actually seriously considered running in this riding, my secondhand rumoured info (ok not all that reliable,but still) was that even during the federal election the provincial NDP had basically decided on the candidates that would be running provincially and most ridings already had candidates although not publically declared. - James did the right thing by not running, as anyone looking at the effect of Adrienne Carr's candidacy would realise. The whiff of political opportunism may stick to Carr for the next provincial election.

Rocking-chair biff and adamned fool, your trite cliches posing as arguments are barely worth rebutting. To put it country simple adrian carr, if not a corporate trojan horse deliberately, might as well be one. Carr running in panarama surrey is a breath-takingly idiotic political move: she can't win, but if she makes the ndp lose she will solidify the a-vote-for-carr-is-a-vote-for-gordon-liar-argument. if she doesn't win enough votes to split the vote, she simply emphasizes her political REDUNDANCY. And, in common with most of the posters above, although I know there are a FEW progressive greens a party that has a former mike harris tory as a leader federally and a smug yuppie like carr provincially WHO HAS YET TO SAY ONE WORD against gordon liar's assault on the poor, the disabled, the sick, the old, the dying, the young, and on women will be voted for only by callous mindless yuppies whose sole contribution to bc politics will be splitting the right wing vote...

Adrienne Carr has said if she wins in Surrey- Panorama Ridge ( just after hell freezes over) she will return to our riding of Powell-River Sunshine Coast and run again here in May 2005. It is clear this is just another opportunistic grab as Faith says above for ten minutes of media attention using not "one", but "two" ridings to facilitate Ms.Carr's flighty ambitions. From reading the comments of Chris Shaw and Phil Legood on the Tyee, they seem to display much more of the integrity this party needs. The Greens have always appeared to me like a nowhere party of yuppies that prefer to mirror- gaze and defend their self-righteous image of saving the earth to actually reflecting on and defending policy issues.

Good posts, the Greens have NEVER won a seat nor will they ever. I remember the media pumping the Greens as a sound alternative before the last election. Will all the media cheerleading and The NDP at its lowest levels ever they only garnished 11-12 % of the vote. Not enough for one Seat. Then I remember after the election, the media would make a mockery of her hanging out at the BC Leg . Finally they asked her to go home . The right wing has a plan and they follow it to a Tee. Anyone knows know that if you vote Green your vote goes towards Gordo. Come on folks pick A target and start to fire, I love the idea of putting up anti BC Lib Billboards , holding the media accountable. We have allot to lose, this back and forth is a joke. The NDP is the only Party that can win, win and then the progressive Greens can come in and take over the Party. The BC Libs have no problems holding together , sometimes you have to compromise to achieve a higher Goal. Otherwise go and live in the margins. Misery loves company

Stuart - not necessarily. There are a lot of right-leaning voters who are disenchanted with the Liberals, but are loathe (for all the wrong reasons, of course) to vote NDP. Playing the left and right wing allows the Greens to position themselves as an ideal protest vote. Where the real problem comes in is CanWest Global's assertation that the Greens are analogous to the NDP, the same one they made in 2001 that made progressive but uninformed voters feel O.K. about walking out on the party. I don't agree with pretty much anything Adrienne Carr says, but at least every time she opens her mouth the NDP recovers a little more of its base.

Stuart - I disagree with your idea of the progressive Greens coming in and "taking over the party" after a NDP win. This brings back haunting memories of Gordon Campbell's devious takeover of the BC liberals from Gordon Wilson - where the whole Liberal party was supplanted of it's liberalism and replaced by a coalition of weak-kneed Campbell devotees.

Bear604 is right about the transit strike; Carr's proposal was simple back to work legislation-, and if my memory serves, she went so far as to actually express the opinion that "public SERVANTS" should have the right to strike withdrawn. Again, there may be a nuance there, that my memory has not carried forward. Needless to say, those of us on the picketline, under threat of contracting out our work, which has established a beach-head in "public" transit nonetheless, through Bonny's Taxi as I say, we were furious with The Greens. (Since retiring, I'm out of touch with the current status of the contracting out issue at, now Coast Mountain Bus.)

"Playing the left and right wing allows the Greens to position themselves as an ideal protest vote.", as Bear604 points out again, is the clear, real motivation of their "above partisan politics" posturing, hoping to draw in that "left and right" protest vote. But make no mistake, in the right set of circumstances, and in a "particular" election, it has the potential to work for them.

I know "critical" objectivity is difficult for "party committed" persons in the runup to an election, with all the pressure that comes down to toe the party line and be upbeat, but, but, but, in my view, BOTH the Libs AND the NDP have big problems in the evolving political climate, out here on the street. There is, in the level of distrust and cynicism about ALL political parties, which I've never seen running so wide and so deep in my lifetime, and my read of the tea leaves, a "potential" way open up the middle for another horse, if it can find its political legs. And I suspect The Greens sense it too, which is the explanation for their desparate political and ideological gymnastics, and the mind and body bending contortions they exhibit, trying to find a way to exploit that great reservoir of anger and frustration to their advantage.

The problem is, of course, that great disaffected body politics is seriously fragmented, ill defined and focussed, and suffering serious "level of understanding" problems, and is all over the place ideologically, and The Greens trying to follow it and connect with it, are so as well, like trying to anticipate and copy someone elses movements in a mirror. It's hard to do. Which is what you do, of course, when you don't have any really deeply held convictions of your own, and aren't sure or entirely comfortably with, where your own ideological and political head is at.

Though NDPers might be some familiar with that dilemma as well. :-) While it's true, one probably doesn't have to be a weatherman, to know which way the wind blows, it helps if there is a clear and not shifting direction to it.

Still, if the Neocon-Libs are as unpopular as we think and hope they are, and I haven't seen a poll in awhile, and the NDP is not really held in much better public esteem, The Greens could just get lucky.

And it would "open up" politics in this province, in a quite new and dramatic way. And again, I'm not advocating it-, I'm just saying....

Glad you liked the billboard thing, stuart. I've just been thinking about how effective billboards could be against the bc liars, especially if they employed Adbuster magazine's style of using graphics and brief text to create COGNITIVE DISSONANCE short, simple, apt aphorisms coupled with dynamite graphics, and subtext...After all, a lot of people don't even read vancouver sun propaganda, but on the bus, skytrain, and in the car, there is a virtual captive audience, with time to think...billboard ads could be more effective than newspaper ads.

I, for one, can see your point lynn, first campbell highjacked the liberal party of bc, then the mike harris tory highjacks the federal greens, I'd hate to see the next ndp government of bc vulnerable to any highjacking whatsoever, no matter how well meaning, we need tranparency to counter the deviousness of the other side...

I was not actually advocating a take over. I was saying that the anger towards the NDP leading Up to the last election was supreme. If the Greens could not win a seat then there is no hope They ever will. A Green Party comeback is a dream. What I was pointing out is that it would Be more effective for progressive greens to be part of a party where they can become more Effective at making change. IN short back someone that can win and put your efforts into a Party that can effect change. The First Billboard could have 3 pictures, One of a squeegee kid, a homeless man with a shopping buggy and a kid sleeping in a doorstep And say BC's newest criminals, I seen one downtown that had Gordo with a huge grimacing grin Showcasing a highway. It Said Toll Highways coming to a province near you.

Needless to say the people who will probably be voting Green don't hang out here at the Tyee. In 2001 Greens beat the NDP in 12 constituencies, granted still far behind the Liberals, but in places like Point Grey, West Van, North Van etc. So according to some logic of the NDP supporters here why should the NDP even run against the Greens in these areas in 2005 ? The NDP are splitting the Green vote in Point Grey and West Vancouver !!! Back in June 2002 I made the suggestion to Joy MacPhail that the Greens and NDP could agree to not run a candidate in the constituency of each parties leader - MacPhail said she would not want to decieve the voters in this way. BTW since I am quoting MacPhail, her quote at the 2002 BC Fed conference really blew me away "How have we become a lab rat in a failing right-wing science experiment? I wish I had the answer. I don't." The 2005 election will no doubt be tough one for the Greens, however the one area Greens and NDP agree on is electoral reform. If we can get the right change on the ballot in 2005 and get a Mixed Member Pro Rep in by 2009 all this confrontational stuff will be significantly reduced. Since the NDP support electoral reform I expect all of you NDP'ers here to support it also :-) As for Jack Layton being more qualified to be at the stopwar rally, at the time Jack Layton wasn't even an elected MOP. The Greens have been against the war in Iraq since day 1, which is more than I can say for the Blairites in the UK. Was it not for Jorga Fisher [the German Green Foreign Minister] threatening to pull out of the German coalition gov't, the Germans would have been in Iraq also. Lewis - I know it is hard to hear when your ears are covered and hard to see when you only look in one direction. The BC Greens have said lots and lots about the policies of the BC Liberals, the Greens just don't get the media attention like when Carole James blows her nose. http://greenparty.bc.ca is the place to look but I bet you won't.

I hope to have an article on here soon as to why Adriane Carr IS running in the Surry Panorama Ridge by-election, it has been submitted to the editors.

I think I have you placed now, rockerbiff. We have even exchanged some coorespondence in the recent past.

In any case, I found this, your last post, an interesting one. I have my issues and suspicions with the Greens, but am always interested to hear your views. (Unlike Libs and Neocons, often one and the same provincially, I don't consider, at least ALL Greens beyond the pale.)

And I'll check out your website, just as I do the NDP, from time to time, and ANY other left grouping's sites I discover.

We're in a new time, I think, begging a new and more creative approach to politics AND economics, AND the matter of democracy.

It's actually too bad the Greens don't hang out here more, it would further enhance the discussion, in my opinion. You'd have to be able to take the heat over the short haul however, because you are perceived as a threat by NDPers, for sure, and many others of us have not been impressed with the "labour politics" of your leader, Adrienne, for good reason. That said, life is a stream, always in motion. (And I don't think NDPers have any "inherent" right of claim to the allegiance of the left, or even folks "above the political spectrum":-)

Rocking-Chair Biff, if not for the greens we could have an effective minority government in ottawa with martin and layton together having a clear majority, thus giving the ndp FAR more influence on the environmental issues you claim to care so much about. Thanks to green vote splitting, we DON'T. But do greens like yourself care? Obviously not. I also think it's most instructive that greens like yourself almost never respond to my criticisms of adrian carr's not speaking up about gordon liar's assault on women, the poor, the sick, the disabled, the dying, and young people in bc, obviously, like 90% of bc greens, you don't find such assaults noteworthy. But, how surprising is this really, from someone who thinks christy clark, who helped gordon liar gut the education system, is a liberal in the old sense of careing about others, as you so foolishly asserted on another thread? Submit your article, I look forward to exposing your self-congratulatory distortions. And thanks again, to federal greens, under the former MIKE HARRIS TORY. WE could have had an effective minority government if not for the green's NARCISSIC SELFISHNESS....And carol james is shut out by canwest media every chance they get, as you know very well, unlike their sychophantic responses when gary feral colon praises the greens -collins actually being stupid enough not to realize it's going to be mostly bc liar votes the "greens' are going to be stealing in the next provincial election...

rockerbiff - I'll say this one more time: Jack Layton was the leader of a major party with MPs in the House, and that party was opposed to the war in Iraq. He might not have been an MP at the time, but he was still the leader of the party. On another note, if the media is covering every time Carole James blows her nose, she'd only need what? A kleenex once every couple of months?

Lewis - you can't blame the Greens for the NDP only winning in two seats in 2001, I think the NDP should at least shoulder some of the blame :-) I have responded to your claim about Carr not responding to Gordon Campbells assault. However, the NDP did a lot of damage to the people you mention also - how about BC Pharmacare coverage being cut in 1996 by 10% by the NDP, Minister Joy MacPhail Responsible ? [this one effected me personally and was a major inspiration for me to leave the party]. It was also MacPhail who denied Carr access to the legislature after the 2001 election. We agree then the Greens will take votes from both major parties - glad to hear it.

"It was also MacPhail who denied Carr access to the legislature after the 2001 election." What? Did MacPhail take out some kind of peace bond or restraining order? AFAIK, Carr has the same access to the Legislature Building and the Grounds that the rest of us who aren't elected Members of the Legislative Assembly have.

bear604 - in the first sitting of legislature after the 2001 election the Liberals gave permission for Adriane Carr to use the "speakers corridor" in the halls of the legislature. Officially, this was in order to address some of the inbalances in the lack of opposition. However, after a few days Joy MacPhail complained and Carr was effectively banned from accessing the media in the legislature.

Rockerbiff:The BCliberals have never had any intentions of addressing imbalances in the lack of opposition in the legislature- MacPhail and Kwan were not given the dignity of opposition funding - They have small, little offices closeted away in the remotest part of the legislature . Why do you think Gary Farrell-Collins sings the praises of the Greens and why do you think they would promote Carr? She ran in my riding and she lost, in fact she came third after Gordon Wilson, so why should she be given a voice in the halls of the legislature? With that kind of logic all of us should have access to the speaker's corridor. In an election you win or you lose - you receive the right to represent or you are denied the right to represent. Perhaps, Ms.Carr should just find her own Hyde Park and get over herself.

Lynn - In the same way Jack Layton had access to media in Ottawa before the federal election, before he was even elected, he was being interviewed on or around parliament. Carr was given an opportunity to speak to the media, provide a third view on many issues, hell even support the NDP in opposition, but MacPhail did not have the vision for this, like so many other things. Carr was/is the leader of the third most popular party in BC. My guess is you did not contemplate this when Jack Layton did the same thing in Ottawa.

Maybe we should start giving our awards for people who come in 4th place . Congrats to the Greens for coming 3rd 10 times. And also congrats to the Marxist-Leninist who have come 4th 20 times etc. The Greens could not win when the NDP were at their Lowest . The only reason the Greens have some power in Germany is because they joined A coalition . Like other posts, why did the media pump up the Greens so much before the Last election. A party that has never had a seat ever. Most supporters as seen by polls Realize they were duped into voting Green and will not make that mistake again. Sorry to Sound so harsh but BC has to much to lose to play around with our votes. When you think Green think of another 4 yrs of Gordo

Again I remind rockerbiff and everyone else that after being elected NDP leader, JACK LAYTON WAS LEADER OF A PARTY WITH ELECTED MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS which affords him official status as a Party Leader. Had there been Green Party MLAs elected in the 2001 election, perhaps Carr's situation would have been reconsidered, but because she wasn't an MLA, nor the leader of a party with sitting MLAs, Carr had no business being treated like an MLA. Carr would better off abandoning her persistent efforts to bend/change the rules and get herself elected somewhere first. Winning an election garners a lot more credibility than whining and loitering.

My understanding is that it was an invitation from the Liberals to Adriane Carr. I don't think Carr was expecting to be treated as an MLA in anyway, I'm sure she'll have that enough after the by-election in Surrey:-) If you were leader of a political party and the ruling party gave you the opportunity to speak to the media on a regular basis, none of you would turn around and say "sorry this is unethical". You would take the opportunity for what it was/is worth and use to your advantage. My suggestion is that MacPhail could have used the situation to her advantage as a third voice, instead of only having a limited view of the situation and this was a typical lack of vision that got the NDP booted so vigorously in 2001.

Face it, rocking chair biff, the only role of the greens is spoilers in the democratic process, and in canada, despite a few progressive supporters, they have been hopelessly coopted by the right wing, BY A MIKE HARRIS TORY FEDERALLY, and by the yuppie princess adrianne carr provincially. Were it not for the greens the ndp in bc would have achieved opposition status with attendant funding. Were it not for the federal greens, we would have an effective liberal/ndp left-leaning minority government. Were it not for nader's greens in the states, who at least were progressive, george bush would have never been elected.

In short, as I said before, although the greens have a few progressives like chris shaw and phil legood, in the main, IF THE GREENS IN CANADA ARE NOT A CORPORATE TROJAN HORSE, THEY MIGHT AS WELL BE...but in the next bc election, the greens are actually going to do something useful, and split the rightwing vote...

Rockerbiff: With that logic since Gordon Wilson beat Adrienne Carr handily in our riding and even though he came in second I'm sure Ms. Carr spoke out (in the interests of imbalances in the opposition, of course,) that Mr. Wilson should also have access to the corridors. And I'm sure the BCliberals (again, in the that same generosity of spirit they are so well-known for especially when it comes to Ms. Carr) would love to give Gordon Wilson the same access, for after all, he came in "second!"

Bear604 makes an important distinction about Layton being "leader of a party with elected MP's. Once again, the Greens defend the bcliberals and hardly utter a word "about the reasons behind the bcliberals unflinching support of Ms. Carr." A good investigative reporter might want to find out if there is financial backing of Ms. Carr as well. But hey, in this province, I wouldn't hold my breath. That's saved for sundecks and love affairs of the left...you know, the really dire issues of the day.

Rockerbiff - If by 'limited vision' one means adherence to parliamentry tradition, grab me a white cane and a German Shepherd. "If you were leader of a political party and the ruling party gave you the opportunity to speak to the media on a regular basis, none of you would turn around and say "sorry this is unethical". You would take the opportunity for what it was/is worth and use to your advantage." Hmmm...If I was leader of a political party, I wouldn't be waiting for the ruling party to give me anything! I'd be organizing in the riding most likely to get me in the legislature, and pretty much ignoring Vaughn Palmer and Michael Smyth. As for the Liberals overtures to Carr after the 2001 election, I think the Tragically Hip put it best with the line "Even babies raised by wolves know exactly when they've been used".

Lynn - the BC Greens [or federal Greens] have never accepted donations from corporations or unions. The Greens would welcome electoral finance reform in BC and for their policy to be likewise applied to the NDP and Liberals [and all others]. The record of who donates to the Green Party of BC is a public record, free to anyone who want to go through the Elections BC web site. Bear604 - Carr did not ask, she was invited, she would be foolish to not take them up on it. Needless to say, similar invitations have not been forthcoming in any way shape or form.

Sorry, the Green party isn't going to attract the right wing, we picked our pony in this horse race. Enjoy watching from the gallery comrads.

The green party has ALREADY attracted the rightwing adam, you know, your federal leader, A FORMER MIKE HARRIS TORY, YOU KNOW< THE MIKE HARRIS TORIES WHO GUTTED ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATIONS IN ONTARIO, WHO SOLD ONTARIO HYDRO, OR AN IMPORTANT PART OF IT, WHO ASSAULTED THE POOR AND WORKING PEOPLE, are we supposed to believe the yuppie adriannee carr cares about people and social justice...now watch adam duck these assertions....

Lewis, I think its the right wing that attracts these people not the other way around, The PC party used to attract Environmentalists to Sepratists. Their were so many different kinds of people in the PC party you could have picked a fight on the way home from church. You seem to think I'm a Green, I'm not. I'm a BCLib and a Federal Conservative, and while I can only speak for myself and perhaps the people I know, none of us are about to switch our vote to the Green party anytime soon. Oh and to go a little farther before you call me some rich capitalist swine, I'm a student, I pay for my own education with money earned from my own hard work, and I applaud the removal of the tuition freeze. The schools simply could not afford to keep up with technology that the other schools across the country we're playing with and as a result education was suffering. Now in my 3rd year I can tell you that this is no longer the case we are again learning on cutting edge technology and repaired buildings. Sure you could whine that government should just fund education more I suppose, but I'm comfortable knowing that more people are getting surgery than cry babies who are just stepping out into the real world and are shocked about how much everything costs are getting a free ride.

Adam: Under the BCLiberals, the surgery wait lists have increased for nearly every kind of surgery in BC. There are almost double the number of people waiting for surgery since your party took power in 2001. (11,000 patients waiting in 2001, 21,000 patients waiting as of October, 2004.) They are also waiting longer for their surgery now. It's amazing isn't it that the BCLberals can afford those glossy, expensive, taxpayer-paid DeceiveBC ads but yet somehow they can't afford that education funding you refer to...

adam do you live at home or are you paying for your own food and accomodation. it is real easy to pay for your own education if you are living at home! again learning on cutting edge technology and repaired building what a joke. how old are you kid I remember when the socreds slashed funding to education and I also remember the ndp reinstating it. I think you are more of a spoiled little rich kid then someone who is from the real world and has to make their own way.

Rockerbiff it the issue that turned you away from the NDP was the "BC Pharmacare coverage being cut in 1996 by 10% by the NDP". Why do you think that the Green would be any better?

Pharmacare spending was increasing a lot each year. The NDP had a small number of Heath Economists assessing and implementing ways to save millions and this involved comparing new drugs with less expensive old drugs and the way that hospitals were used WITHOUT drastically firing everyone and reducing salaries. The thrifty, but NOT efficient Liberals got rid of the pharmacoeconomic assessments and implemented brain-dead neoconservative budget slashing.

Sorry to break your theory Vick, I live in a house with 2 other roommates. My education is funded by me, not my parents. They spent enough money simply getting me to this stage I would feel wrong skimming for more..

Lynn, your only explaining half the Situation, Yes, there are more people on the witing lists. However, there are thousands more surgeries being performed annually now than in 2001. Waitlists are snowballing problem of an ageing population. There is no simple cure or magic fix, it is just a magic number the NDP like to throw around to say the government somehow failing even when it is painfully obvious that their plan failed as well. It's almost like a reverse of "I know you are but what am I" I will speculate that if the NDP continued down their little path of just pay more money to the unions we would be far worse off than we are today and the numbers of surgeries being performed would not have increased nearly as much as it has under this government. So the Liberals are running into the same problems the Former government ran into with keeping up to demand. Is an opposition party with no new ideas and who has also failed somehow more credible than a government who is currently attempting to deal with the same mess? I say no, It's just a new shoe on the foot.

Excellent point, Sue Clark. The NDP were trying to stop the sky rocketing costs of Pharmacare through reference-based pricing ( where Pharmacare will pay for the least expensive of equivalent drugs.) Under the BCliberals we now have seniors who must choose between going hungry or filling their prescriptions.

Adam: Then why are doctors speaking out against the cuts that have affected their finding room to perform surgery? Why are nurses saying they are so overworked and understaffed? Could it be that your government's cuts to staffing (RN's necessary for surgery) and medical workers ( all those bad union people who stand on their feet for hours to help you get better) has critically overextended our medical system? You are part of a government that thinks it can advertise itself out of it's failures - you're the government now and you have only made things worse, much worse. But you're right - it is a fine mess. Been in an emergency room lately?

Hospitals actually control the # of nurses present for surgery. Infact there is no data for how many are actually nessicary for a praticular surgery it is just billed to the government. This is one of the problems when comparing Public vs Private care and when people say "Where did all the money go is that any government regardless of who never had/has any idea where the money infact goes. You're still dodging the point, sure the workers you say all admit to being overworked underpaid regardless to the fact that on the whole they are better paid than their comrads in other provinces. However, there are still thousands more surgeries being performed now than there were in 2001 and that is a point which you have no ability to argue.

Surgery wait times *were* stable under the NDP. When the wait times did go up, the NDP *did* take care of it. BC Liberals strategy seems to be to let things go into the dumper, make excuses (see Adam's excuses) and then ask for more money from Ottawa.

The BC government web pages no longer show the 1990 for this reason. Things have gone totally to hell since the BC Liberals took over.

The BC government web pages no longer show the 1990s surgery wait-time statistics because it would show how incompetent the BC Liberals are. If more surgeries are required, they have to take care of the problem and not let things get out of hand as the months pass and the problem worsens.

Adam I find that hard to believe, you are definitely a liberal spin artist, your liberal and socred friends have been developing the hell out of this province, bringing seniors here from all over the world to retire with full healthcare benefits which they have not paid for. If an american lives here for more then six months of the year they are eligible for b.c. med at the same price we get it for without ever having paid into it. Albertans come here to retire after enjoying the low taxes paid there during their working lives and we have to subsidize them since we have not been getting our fair share of transfer payments. Anyone else remember klein and harris giving their welfare people one-way tickets to come to b.c. and collect welfare? I thought we should have declared war on them but what the hell I am just an old redneck who despises liars and thieves! There was such a huge uproar of pissed of people that the ndp changed the rules, you had to live here for six months before you were eligible for welfare and the federal government stopped our transfer payments until we changed the rules, we got screwed! klein and harris got away with it thanks to the feds, they have given the drunk one hell of a lot more in transfer payments then the ndp ever got! I now live near victoria when finally do get in to see our family doctor I sit in a waiting room filled with rich seniors from the states and east of the b.c. border, this annoys the hell outa me, we are getting screwed here and the developers are laughing all the way to the bank. We are crazy in my opinion for turning this province into a geriatric destination, it makes no sense to import people who will soon be falling apart needing the expensive drugs and operations to keep them alive for another 20-30 years, no wonder there is such a big push to privatise healthcare, it is a gold mine pay for the operation up front get fast tracked and write it off on your income tax! Our kids will never be able to afford housing, we are stuck with the excess traffic, pollution, lineups and few of us are getting any financial benefit from the development. When this economy slows it is going to tank in a huge way I have seen it before in this province, and I recall all the experts saying it would never happen!

Excellent piece, vick. BC under the BCliberals has become one big garage sale. What a giveaway, what a deal for everybody... BUT British Columbians.

Oh Adam, go ask any student if you are really a student and see if they are happy with The huge tuition increase . Most students I talk to say education is no better just More expensive. You're sounding like a CKNW or Liberal press release. The Liberals have Hurt allot of people to make up for their tax cut short fall. The facts are simple. ... 1) Huge tax cut, 80% going to the top 5% of BC income earners. (this created the largest deficit in BC history justifying the huge cuts) 2) 100 closed schools around the province, some kids ride over 1 hr to get to school 3) 100- 150 % increased tuition placed on the back of students and parents, (less kids can know afford to get an education) 4) cutting programs for rape relief for women, cutting the books for the blind funding, cutting Legal aid(mainly affects women and children) 5) Tried to cut the $ 35 dollar per child gift allowance for Christmas for kids in foster care (what kind of prick does that) 6) Broke legal contracts, lied about cuts to health and education 7) Gave away BC Rail ( profit making crown corporation) to a private company-- Details of Of sale still being investigated by RCMP. 8) Gave away BC Ferries to private company, 9) New BC Ferries company decides to build new Ferries oversees, kissing of 2000 BC jobs and Over half a billion in direct and spin of benefits, 10) BC cuts funding pharmacare to seniors, 11) Cuts funding for disabled people, makes them reapply, throws mentally ill folks back To the streets, 12) Closes St Mary's hospital, 13) Crime rates in the GVRD have gone up 8-17 % around the lower mainland, 14) Gets busted for drunk driving 15) Ongoing investigations resulting for the raid of the BC leg Okay that's just what I could think of for now. Now please enlighten us with the good things the Liberals have done for BC, maybe just come up with one thing

Vick, It's easier to dismiss success than it is to accept it for you is it ? You can believe what you want but all I did was work in the Oil fields of Alberta for a a year and a half in order to have the money to pay for school. Ya it sucked, but it got me where I wanted to be.

Stuart, if you read the Monday Oct 18/04 edition of the National Post, under editorials there is a piece entitled "B.C., reborn" to name a few things though, 1) 160,000 new jobs since 2001, 2) Royal Bank predicts BCer's disposable income will be up 4.8% this year, 3) only Alberta is expected to be better in GDP growth. 4) Retail sales are predicted to be up 6.8% this year and 7% next, I will let you just go read the article

one word describes it all adam, BULLSHITT. it is all pump and spin alberta is doing well because of the massive tar sand projects which klein gave to the americans! disposible income up, give me a break after how many people have been laid off and the jobs given back to others at minimum wage, the banks are all for right wingers so they will cherry pick the news in my opinion. leave the lower mainland and have a look at how well the new era is taking care of the rest of b.c., not very well. if they are not having a realestate boom selling condos and houses to retirees they are hurting. south island lower mainland and the okanogen are all major destinations for rich retirees so yes they doing ok but that could end very soon. there is a lot of speculation that interest rates will go up after the u.s. election and I wouldn't be surprised if it happens, thats when you will see the real estate bubble burst! I wouldn't believe the national post if they told me the sky was blue on a sunny day, I despise that paper and most of the writers who work there, same mindset as your drunken friend so why would I believe them? masters of spin and useless rhetoric like most of you liberals! neo-cons hiding behind a liberal flag is more like it! We have less leyne here in victoria spewing the same dribble as the np! I keep asking if he is a member of the b.c. liberals or just trying to keep his job at the local canwest rag!

adam I find it difficult to except the word success from anyone who supports the drunk, I have seen the pain he is causing the people of this province. Most liberal supporters I know have one thing in common they are very selfish and self centered they only care whats best for them and if it saved them a dollar on their taxes they could care less how many people die!

Adam - a few questions 1. How "Reborn" do you think BC will be once interest rates go back up? 2. What school are you going to that encourages its students to use the National Post as a reference on economics? 3. How easy would it be for someone who's female, a member of a visible minority group, or someone who's disabled to work in the oilpatch for a year and a half to raise enough money for college? 4. Why are the BC Liberals willing to pay for surgeries at private clinics, but unwilling to open operating currently being underused at public hospitals?

Adam - a few questions 1. How "Reborn" do you think BC will be once interest rates go back up? 2. What school are you going to that encourages its students to use the National Post as a reference on economics? 3. How easy would it be for someone who's female, a member of a visible minority group, or someone who's disabled to work in the oilpatch for a year and a half to raise enough money for college? 4. Why are the BC Liberals willing to pay for surgeries at private clinics, but unwilling to open operating currently being underused at public hospitals?

1) I think we will be similarly affected across the country when rates go up. 2)I don't know many schools where they wouldn't encourage you to read as many papers as you can, however Business departments are definatly going to suggest you read the Financial Post section of the NP. It is amazing how you can read articles from the Far left (like this site) to the Left (globe and mail) and from the right (NP) and from the far right (Fox News) and how different the "sky is falling" senarios get printed. Anyway, 3) Women I admit might have a harder time working on the rigs themselves but i would respect any that were able to do the job, most of the house crew like the cooking staff are women and get paid reasonablly well (not as much but sill more than average elsewhere) and due to the overtime and having no where to spend it you could do well. As far as minorities, you are only a minority if you choose to label yourself as one, many natives work on the rigs without problem, ability is all that is appriciated when its -40`C with wind. 4) Because they are willing to charge the exact same fee but with out the overhead cost of equipment to the province? Doing anything otherwise is stupid economics suitible only for comrad minds of the NDP

Vick your blindness by ideology is very apparent. While there was some initial unpopular steps this government had to do it was no more painful to people when the NDP shut down mining specifically copper mining across the province in the 90's. Take a step back, if you can't see that business both big and small are doing better than you're blind, and a business that is doing better than it was pays more tax than it did last year cause its making more money it really isn't rocket science. Whether it is for intrinsic or extrinsic value Vick everyone only does what’s best for them, go read Ayn Rand’s “Atlas Shrugged”

Also Vick it talks about the Alberta reasons for GDP Strength Only 5% of BC's GDP is Energy sector whereas Alberta's is 18% so argueably once price drops back down we will be in even better shape than Alberta.

Copper mining shut down by ndp??? The IMF and their friends lending money to third world countries to develop mines affected the mining industry. When the price of copper molly etc dropped due to the market being flooded these countries could not afford to stop production so they kept selling ore prices came down! The pulp industry has a similar problem; the Canadian government lent (gave?) the Indonesian government 285 million of taxpayers money to build a huge pulp mill. I know the guy who was in charge of construction for Commonwealth. It turns out that a 200 million U.S. contract to deliver goods and services to this mill was given to a company in Montreal. Suprised? I think this mill killed the pulp and paper industry in b.c. The bronfman's were allowed to take 2 billion dollars out of the country to invest in south america I forget how many millions of that money had been given to them by the taxpayers supposedly to bail out their companies and save jobs! Jobs in third world countries! Ayn Rand lol. We own a small business with twelve employees and the drunk has not done a dam thing for us! If business is so wonderful why are so many going broke, every time I go to Sidney or Victoria I see another business going under and this during record growth? I used to be blinded by ideology when I was a socred, now I ‘m pissed at the right wing for selling us out to the highest bidder for their own personal gain and of the opinion that anyone who quotes the national post is a right wing neo-con ideologue! I have seen this province go through good times and they didn’t look like what we have now, we have a two tiered economy, the northern interior is hurting big-time!

Vick when the NDP took power they enacted a tax that made the price of copper exactly even with the tax lets not forget turning a mine into a park shocker the NDP gave the industry either. As for all you see when you goto town, it appears from everything you have said that it is all you will ever choose to see.

Adam: Vick sees with honest eyes. We have three shopping malls in Powell River (if you like malls, not my favourite). Two of them now have only a couple of stores in them still standing. All the rest have gone out of business. The rural areas of this province have been decimateded by Campbell's government and no amount of phony advertising can hide it...in fact, perhaps a film crew should tour the downtowns of rural BC, and then along our highways that have been stripped of so many of our grand old Douglas firs and finally into our parks where you will find nary a caretaker to maintain them. We'll call it RetrieveBC.

retrieve: to gain possession of, bring back, set right an error...how about set right "a new era"...oops, forgot you've removed all mention of "the new era" doctrine from your BCliberal website.... wonder why...

The fact remains the b.c. mining industry was affected by external forces. They also polluted the hell out of the environment. leaving environmental nightmares behind that should have been cleaned up. I am a Norhterner and I know the kinds of mess left behind. How many people have died of throat and lung cancer in the Nithi Valley down wind from Endako Mines, how about the Mercury in Babine Lake, ever heard of Pinchi Lake they dumped so much Mercury into that lake it was possible to actually find the heavy metal at the beach where people used to camp and fish! The industry needs to be held financially responsible for cleaning up their mess and unfortunately for all they have to be forced to pay their fair share! If there is any seismic activity around Endako there is a huge tailings pond over 700 ft high which will end up in the river valley, you can see it from the highway! Most mine tailings are full of cyanide, the mining industry went south to avoid the real cost of cleaning up their mess, they want to pollute and poison at will with no financial responsibility! OH yes can't forget the creek running out of the Endako Tailings Pond under highway 16 into a small lake on the North side of the highway. I noticed it still running in -40 when I pulled over to clean my windshield??? No doubt in my mind that the drunk will give the mining industry a license to poison this province and the people in it with no accountability! Typical socreds! The mining industry gave the liars a huge donation to win the election and now the favour is being returned at our expense, at the expense of our children! The Baker and Huckleberry mines were built by albertans when a lot of Norhterners needed jobs to feed their families!

Hey adam wasn't there a senior bank analyst fired for critisizing the drunks tax cut?

Btw adam that creek runs into the Endako River which runs into the Stellaqo River, Fraser Lake, Nautley River, Nechako River and joins the Fraser in Prince George. How many people are using that water for cooking drinking feeding their cattle watering their crops etc...you might be eating or drinking a little of it yourself on occasion and don't get me started on the pulp mills. I work in them and I can tell you all kinds of stories! We are leaving our children and grandchildren with one hell of a mess, all in the name of the economy or if you like greed greed and more greed!

College students still read pulp like Ayn Rand? No wonder they think that Will McMartin is on the far left and people like Jeffrey Simpson and John Ibbitson are on the left. Forget it Vick, it'll take this kid 20 years to wake up.

I have to agree with you Frank.

Maybe we could all get together and watch Gary Cooper in the Fountainhead :) one of the biggest pieces of garbage I ever saw.

I have come to the conclusion that Carole James is not running in this by-election because she will lose. Adriane Carr has everything to gain and she does not need to win to make those gains.

I have a real problem with people parachuting into a riding, if you live there you run there, how is it that two people living in the same house can run in two seperate ridings? Carol James did the right thing in my opinion, why should she run there when she is living in Victoria?

I wonder after Adriane loses , will she hand around the neighborhood asking questions to anyone who will listen. Maybe the Surry City Words will kick her out.

Sorry, Surrey City Works dep

Exactly, Stuart, how long will Adrienne Carr hang around after she loses- it's adios amigos and back to the Sunshine Coast. Rockerbiff, how can you profess that your party is going to set a new way, a new integrity when right from the get go you have betrayed the whole idea of representation. Read your quote: " she does not need to win to make gains"... Gains for who? Gains for the Greens, of course, not for the people of Surrey - so descend from the green tower of self-righteousness and realize that already you are mired in the old style politics of opportunism - shocking as it may seem your party is as guilty as the rest. The greens as a new alternative? Hardly!

Tommy Douglas, Dave Barratt to name but a few parachuted in to get their seats, so why not Adriane Carr ? Lynn I totally agree with you - to win at the politics game you have to play the game, the Greens did not write the rules, we have to play by them and change them once elected or in a position of more influence. It is a sad commentary on the state of BC politics, but how else can a party win seats???We are already a party of influence, just look at a significant part of the NDP platform from 2001, written after the GP book was published.Look at the influence on the Liberal effort to bring electoral reform, the Green Party have lead the way in electoral reform, more than any other party in the history of this province. As for Adriane staying around after the election I am not sure as to what the usefulness of that would be since there would be an elected representative in place. I will say that Adriane now has a first hand experience with the area and the issues that face it and she can attest to that far better than Carole James.

But Rockerbiff, Carr already has a riding to run in. Isn't she already the nominated candidate for Powell River- Sunshine Coast? So why the need of a parachute? She has already stated if (in a case of the impossible) she did win in Surrey she would still quit and run in May 2005 for the Powell River-Sunshine Coast riding. As I said before "Adios Surrey-Panorama Ridge" "Hello, Powell River-Sunshine Coast!" Now that's integrity for you - can't get more blatant than that. And if what constitutes first-hand experience of the area and the issues is this "drive- through" approach to politics, then the hope for a "genuine" representation of the people is clearly a remote one.

Despite our many encounters here, rockerbiff, you seem like a highly likeable, decent guy , and I wish you all the best in your own personal run for office. Just be aware that playing the same old game by the same old rules in the same old way will end in the same old result. You are no doubt loyal, but I'd still keep one eye on your leader.

well i can say is if we do not get rid of cambell bc is going to be very sorry not the rich but us average folks trying to make a decent living how that man can sleep at night is beyond me if i lose what i have which is not great but at least i know i have a pay check med and dental but if that man has his way we will not even have that.I wonder if his family ever had to leave for school with no breakfast i do not think so.I see folks in my own town living on the streets kids with nothing cause parents can not afford everything a child needs on 8.00 an hour we need someone in there that cares about all people of bc not just the rich i hope that person if there is one will be elected next time around.

well it looks like the editors don't want to publish my article on why Adriane Carr is running, better late than never here it is... Why Adriane Carr should run in the Surrey Panorama Ridge By-Election Let's face it the Greens have had a tough time getting attention since the 2001 BC election. Despite seeing highs of 18% or more in polls around the province, media attention and therefore public attention has been minimal in comparison to the other two parties. Back in 2001 the Green Party of BC received 12.4% of the vote, not enough to elect anyone, but enough to shake up BC politics, particularly in the NDP camp. The number of votes essentially announced the Green Party had arrived at the door of the Victoria legislature. There have been lots of complaints that the Greens are just not there when it comes to issues and yet those same people only have to visit the party web site to see where the party stands on any given issue. We should know by now the media have a hard time in dealing with more than two opinions on any given issue, a third opinion seems to complicated the issue for them. Whilst media attention in the federal election gave some coverage to the Green party, the party was left out of both language debates, Green popularity in BC is much higher and Carr's debut on the 2001 BC televised debate elevated the party one notch in the minds of many voters. According to the her web site, Carr looks at the Surrey-Panorama Ridge by-election as an opportunity for people to express their dissatisfaction with how recent governments of both the left and right have failed to meet their needs. "It's also a chance for the people of Surrey-Panorama Ridge see how well a Green Party MLA can do the job of serving them in the Legislature. It's a seven month try-out and I'm sure people will be delighted with the results," says Carr. One of the major issues Carr is pushing is the need for electoral reform. Her views on the issue were enough to bring electoral reform in to the minds of many in 2002 with her citizens initiative. This use of legislation brought in 4000 volunteers and over 89,000 signatures. The BC Liberals have echoed the sentiments of Carr's initiative with the well funded Citizens Assembly on Electoral Reform. The Greens face major challenges in the 2005 election; one is to hold on to their popularity gained in 2001, two is the double barrelled effect of supporting the vote on electoral reform [if favourable] and running an effective election campaign on limited resources; the third is to show the voters of the British Columbia that the Greens are different than the NDP. Since 2001 there have been numerous campaigns to "unite the left"; however, these have been dismissed as unsuccessful ploys by the NDP to bring Green voters back in to the NDP. Look for the NDP to concentrate on raising the spectre of splitting the left vote at the same time criticising the Greens for being overly right of center. On the Green - NDP issue Carr's web site further states: "There has been speculation that the Green Party might seek some sort of electoral accommodation with the NDP. We recognize that some people are very concerned about defeating the Liberals in 2005. But the Green Party is a unique party with a clear vision, policies and style of politics that are different from the other parties. We share similar positions with the NDP in some areas, notably in support of a mixed proportional representation electoral system. On areas of agreement, we are willing to work with the NDP and other parties, too. However, the Green Party differs substantially from the Liberals and the NDP on core values and policies such as those concerning off-shore oil exploration, fish farms, working forest legislation, and in regard to cuts to schools, seniors' homes and welfare. The Liberal government has been a disaster for British Columbians but in many instances it is simply following the same policies introduced by the NDP when they were in government," explained Carr. Carr's decision to run in the upcoming by-election, maybe considered brash or brave depending on the outcome. However, it is essential that the Green's show the voting public they are still very much alive and kicking,almost four years after their initial success in 2001. Green supporters rally around their leader in Victoria on November 20-21 for the Green Party Annual General Meeting.

I also have a problem with the greens period and I am a member of the building trades, no way in hell will I vote green I do not trust them!

Vick - what have the Greens done to deserve your lack of trust ?

PS--ANYONE WHO KNOWS ANYONE IN SURREY PANORAMA RIDGE SHOULD MAKE SURE THEY GET TO THE POLLS TOMORROW, THIS IS IMPORTANT, WITH THE BC FIBERALS WITH ALL THE MEDIA IN HAND WE NEED ALL THE SUPPORT WE CAN GET...SENT A MESSAGE, VOTE NDP. IF THE GREENS WIN SO BE IT, BUT IF THEY DIVIDE THE VOTE AND THE LIBERALS TAKE IT, THAN THIS IS A GOOD LESSON TO LEARN BEFORE THE NEXT ELECTION.

PS--ANYONE WHO KNOWS ANYONE IN SURREY PANORAMA RIDGE SHOULD MAKE SURE THEY GET TO THE POLLS TOMORROW, THIS IS IMPORTANT, WITH THE BC FIBERALS WITH ALL THE MEDIA IN HAND WE NEED ALL THE SUPPORT WE CAN GET...SENT A MESSAGE, VOTE GREEN. IF THE NDP WIN SO BE IT, BUT IF THEY DIVIDE THE VOTE AND THE LIBERALS TAKE IT, THAN THIS IS A GOOD LESSON TO LEARN BEFORE THE NEXT ELECTION

Rockerbiff, your comments may carry some weight when your party and your leader can win one seat. People have learned their lesson with the Greens, I predict her getting less than 4 % of the vote.

Looks like both of us have been dissapointed, I was expecting 10% :-)