I am voting to get rid of the tax

Normally I am pretty passive about taxes. I understand the need for government to take my money and I just hope that they spend it appropriately on what our society needs.

This tax, however, has made me angry.

I am not even sure how much it will affect my pocket book. Might be insignificant. I accept a more streamlined tax system without question. And I realize that the defeat of the HST may have a short term negative impact on government finances and small businesses.

But

It started as a shift from business to consumer. (And of course its implementation was a series of lies.)

The government continues to lie about its impact - The $3B hole in the budget - when in fact it was supposed to be revenue neutral.

They are changing the details on the fly to confuse us on what we are voting on. 10% vs 12% - of what? And the change came after the premier had said a lower % would be too burdensome on the budget.

They are not being unbiased in their ads when they said they would be. And they are using massive amounts of money from third party ads, from groups who gain the most.

They are using fear (the world will end if it is defeated) and guilt (what about the poor and the seniors?)when in fact the fear is unfounded and there are plenty of other ways to help the needy.

While I never voted for Vander Zalm and I am still mad at Tieleman over the STV, I see nothing in their opposition that has a hidden agenda while everything in the Liberals and Smart Tax Alliance tells me to be wary.

And I will go back to an article, Bill wrote a couple of weeks ago. This is more than just money. The people have told governments - not just this one but all future ones - that they can not take the electorate for granted.

And one last point. Tax policy is a government decision not a referendum issue. This should have been fought in 2009.

Get rid of the HST. If the tax is vital to BC then the Liberals can use it as part of their election campaign whenever one is called.

(If this post shows up more than once, I apologize. The Captcha gizmo is being unco-operative.)

Question

Will the members of the Smart Tax Alliance be able to get tax write-offs for the money they have poured into this campaign? As I see it, these expenditures have nothing to do with any of their business ventures.

The other thing that people must really consider before they vote is that why are these business types pouring so much money on a tax policy. You can surely bet that it is not because for any altruistic reasons. It is all about greed. Nothing more, nothing less.

Vote "YES" to extinguish the HST. Believe me, there is nothing good in it for you and your families now or in the future.

scrwd

Fool me once, shame on me...
Fool me twice...

If we are gettng scrwd we at least deserve a kiss on the cheek afterwards, don't we?

Seems to me, in a democratic relationship, part A should not coalesce with part B unless it is by mutual agreement. Normally, "NO means NO." This HST thing was foisted upon us by fiat, hence we deserve the kiss on the cheek. Since Yes = No, JUST SAY YES.

25% VAT in Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Hungary

Here's a list of some Value Added Taxes (VAT) and sales taxes rates payable elsewhere:

Denmark: 25%
Sweden: 25%
Norway: 25%
Hungary: 25%
Poland 23%
Finland: 23%
Portugal: 23%
Belgium: 21%
United Kingdom: 20%
Austria: 20%
Italy: 20%
France: 19.6%
Germany: 19%
Netherlands: 19%
Spain: 18%
Russia: 18%
Ukraine: 17%
China: 17%
Mexico: 16%
New Zealand: 15%
United States: 0-13% state sales taxes. Municipal sales taxes sometimes added. No federal sales tax.
B.C. GST+PST: 12%
B.C. HST: 10%
Australia: 10%
Egypt: 10%
Vietnam: 10%
Switzerland 8%
Taiwan: 5%
Iran: 3%

The countries with the best healthcare, education and other social services tend to have the highest VAT rates. If B.C. keeps the HST and lowers it to 10%, we will still have one of the lowest sales tax rates in the world.

Are Tieleman and his buddy Vanderzalm thinking of packing their bags and moving to Iran because of its low VAT rate? We can only hope!

See more at:
en.wikipedia DOT org/wiki/Value_added_tax#Tax_rates

Follow the reference links at the end of the article to verify figures.

You'll need to fix the link above to make it work. thetyee.ca's spam filter won't let me post a working link.

future CC?

Does the VAT rate you list for other countries above reference what they will be in 2014? I see that you chose to promote our HST as 10%. Why do you keep on promoting our rate as 10% when in fact it is 12%? Convenient little lies.

Oh and if HST does go down to a mere 10%, looks as though you will still have a great argument to keep social services substandard here in BC.

12% now

crh, I picked up on that also.

The HST in BC right now IS 12%, not 10, as cycling commuter lists.

10% may, and that's a big may,(if can you take their word and believe the liberals) only come into effect totally, 2 years from now, not today, not tomorrow, totally in 2 years. Can we believe the liberals now???

Vote YES to get rid of this tax.

What's the End Game?

The primary reason that I will vote "yes" to extinguish the HST is because "they" won't stop there. And by "they", I mean the corporate interests that pull the strings in every jurisdiction currently ruled by a right wing government.

Their goal is to reduce the corporate tax contribution to "0" ... and they're winning. My understanding is that corporate taxes once made up about 40% of total government revenue, and is now about 16%. That means the contribution from individual tax payers has grown from 60% to more than 80%. Eventually, it will be 100%.

This might make some sort of sense IF corporate tax reductions led directly to economic and job growth, but the evidence supporting that theory is flimsy at best.

In reality, all it means is that "we" pay for the infrastructure that businesses need in order to earn their income and profits, and they (grudgingly) hire a few people (at the lowest possible wage and few if any benefits). Wow, such a deal.

If the HST survives the referendum, stay in your seats for Acts II and III. The plot thickens.

PERCENTAGE POINT

For the HST to be equal to the GST/PST it would have to be reduced to at least 8.25%. That is more than a little different from the 10% that we may or may not get. The question is, will the neo-conservatives in Ottawa still honor their "Order in Council" to lower the HST to 10% in 2014 if the people of B.C. are smart enough to dump the Lyberals?

Everyone, mail your vote in NOW!.

With the deed done, all Christy's propaganda and mind spin will be for naught.

AH-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!!

(Love the cartoon... love it.)

Walkin' all over you.

Seriously, Folks, the time has come to stop rewarding diabolical and treacherous leaders with our support.

Boots on. It's a two-step. First the HST. Then the Liberals.

BOOT! BOOT!

CC's youtube update

Even Ms. Clark is 'confused' about the HST as opposed to the 'old' PST/GST.

In her July 4 youtube update she states that the HST will save us $120 annually because it is 10%, and if we go back to the 'old' GST/PST we will be paying an extra $350 annually.

The 'truth' is that we have paid an extra $350 already under the HST, and when and if they reduce it to 10%, we will only be paying an extra $230 annually.

If we go back to the 'old' GST/PST we will be saving $350 annually from what we now pay extra on the HST.

No wonder their is confusion when CC does not understand the tax herself.

Or does she, and she is just being a Campbellite?

a few more facts

I spoke to a local contractor on his lowering his costs and he came back with "we haven't had an increase in a couple of years so we are going to use our savings here as an increase in products and service.

As Bill states only a Federal Order In Council can reduce the tax. And after July 1, 2014 we will lose all control in BC over taxation. If we do not get rid of this unaldulterated theft now, we will lose that right forever. And the spin doctor above list above is just that. A spin. I see Greece is conveniently not on the list. A country whose taxes are over 40%. The country started out low and the people started going underground. As there was less revenue more people went underground. Taxes were raised. And so on. There are people living in mansions and driving Mercedes and they are NOT paying taxes.Now Greece in a situation where they are bankrupt and there is no hope of getting out short of a total forgiving of the debt.

If the governments of BC and Canada think the underground Marijuana economy is big, just wait till small businesses join it to get business and save money.(which by the way I already have seen evidence).

For Cycling Commuter

Your mentioned countries that have high VAT rates have very high corporate taxes (25% up) and income inequality very low. Lot of social programs are paid from corporate taxes. People like paying taxes because they value equal partnership with businesses in paying taxes with very high percentage of unionized workforce that keeps income inequality away. In Canada and US, big corporate elites wants to have it both ways, caring just about themselves and ruining our society with high poverty and cutting social programs. I hope that answers your questions.

Thanks again Bill!

I enjoyed the article and all the posts particularly the post from notdarkyet and tangler. The media won't question the spending by the Smart Tax Alliance because they don't want to look a gift horse in the mouth. They don't want to risk all that advertising. I would like to think that the public which is being taken to the cleaners again is not going to be fooled again. I sure hope so.

I too would like a simple tax system but simple is not synonymous with fair. What is simple for the corporate sector may be neither simple or fair for the rest of us. All the manipulation and money being spent to convince me that the HST is a good deal proves there is something fishy about it and something really slimey about all those groups telling me this is good for me.

HST tax rate

Cycling Commuter repeats the same dishonest tax rate for the HST as the pro-HST forces do. He says it is 10%, using the present tense. It is not 10%. It is 12%. That is right now, not some fictional time in the future.

This is absolutely typical of those supporting the tax, deceive, deceive, deceive.

This is really outrageous

This is really outrageous yet Goebbel BC and other main stream media will never mention it so the vast majority of people will never hear of this. (There is a lot of people who swear by the 6 pm Global BC news as the truth instead of the BC Liberal Party propaganda arm and many of those viewers view alt media as conspiracy theorists)

The fixed election law has yet to be rescinded and what is the point of having one if it can be revoked and used for political advantage? I thought that was the point of bringing it in to take away political opportunism?

almost amusing

Both sides of this discussion are quite amusing at this point. I have a laugh when I see NDP in favour of lowering taxes, and the Libs trying to hold taxes higher. Has this world gone upside down?
On the Smart tax alliance, my explanation is much simpler than all the sinister motives: because they are pro-lib and this hst vote has morphed into a pseudo-provincial vote they are putting their money with the party they favour. Yes there is some windfall for business but I don't really think that that's what got them going for this.
I think the provincial vote is later and this is a vote on the tax. And people that say otherwise on both sides are just muddying the waters. My wife and I are voting differently on the HST thingie even though we voted for the same candidate last election (and will likely vote the same next election). That's proof enough to me that this is not an electoral vote...
Like I said before - I am just counting the minutes for this thing to be done. I am usually interested in politics but this topic just makes me yawn. And no - not because of Christy's hypnotic capabilities - I found it a big yawn well before she became premier. I've been in Canada for 20 years and I've seen taxes go up and down by tens of percent without so much as a chirp from anyone - to see all this bickering about what amounts to nothing in the end is sad and amusing. And before everyone screams: Yes, I know, there is all of $100/year on the table based on my decision (or -$50, or +$200, who knows?). Sigh - gimme a break!

Post HST PST rates

Almost guaranteed that if we go back to the PST all the previous exemptions will be gone and I would expect at least a 1 or 2% increase in the PST to pay for the roll back and replace the lost income. Get real folks, it isn't going to go back to the way it was. No way.
So the real question for 2012 is 11% HST or 14% GST plus PST with no drop in 2014.

Bottom line

All the supporters of HST ignore the simple truth that introduction of the tax is a major tax shift. If industry receives an $800 million tax reduction (or is it $1.2 billion? – the numbers seem to change) some other taxpayer must make up the difference. So to state that ordinary taxpayers (or as the politicians now like to say, “families”) are going to save money under HST cannot be correct unless government is willing to forego the amount of tax that industry will save. Of course this would mean less services for "families".

Liars

After all is said and done who is to say it won't go up before it goes down. Before the HST referandum there was a graph on the BC Liberals website that showed HST 14% personal income tax 14% = 28% out of our pockets now corp. was a minute 4% out of corps. pocket now who is being taken down the garden path. That graph has disappeared from the website. Hmmmm I wonder why oh I know the Fiberals haven't told the truth since 2001 who is going too believe them now NOT me that is for sure

questions questions

From what I have read the Smart Tax Alliance had enormous un-paid PST problems that were to be forgiven if they supported the implementation of this tax. Not sure of the truth of that statement.

Four questions to ask yourself today;

#1. Who is it that benefits from having this tax implemented; business or consumers?

#2. Why has the pro-HST side not gone to the Maritimes to find advocates to promote the benefits of having this tax? After all, the Maritimes have had this tax since 1996. And we all know what a successful economic engine that the Maritimes are; heck they are propping up the entire country correct?

#3. If this tax is such a great success as all of the pro-HST people have claimed, why was this not made an election issue in 2009?

#4. Regarding government credibility,did the government lie about the implementation of this tax? If the answer is yes what else are they lying about?

It might make elbillug yawn....

...but some of us are not willing to let blatant lies during an election campaign slide, especially when the referendum provides a direct means of chastising the liars for it.

From my own perspective, if my balance sheet suffers from removal of the HST, so be it. Whatever losses I incur will be worth it if I get to kick the Liberals in their collective arse for their actions.

As for the province's fiscal situation. I'll look forward to the government's defense of its record in an upcoming election, including the decision to lie about implementing the tax, and I'll be anxious to hear about how they plan to deal with the consequences of the lost referendum, including the costs of reinstatement of the PST/GST, and compensation for the federal government.

They are, after all, the only party qualified to manage the province's finances in today's global economy, (Christy said so). And since they'll likely take every day possible of their term before the fixed election date, they'll be plenty of time to judge them on their performance.

I wish I could deliver my referendum form in person to Christy !

Despite the (misleading) snake oil pitch; I am still voting Yes to extinguish the HST.

With all the 'mistakes' made by the Liberals on the HST, should the MLA's take a pay cut because obviously the increased salaries for MLA's have not drawn 'better' candidates!

elbillug

HST and any other VAT system favours the rich!

Is that too simple to understand?

We all have to eat and conseqently everybody pays an equal tax on consumable items , that is an easy ride for people in the higher tax brackets and a burden for those who barely can afford to eat.

HST is value added...really?

The idea was great in terms of simplifying the taxation. The implementation was sloppy and one sided. The burden is taken on by consumers and the industry is gaining everything. Or are they?

Tourism is down by 10% I believe. Now why is that? Could it be that tourists will choose a city where they won't be mugged blind by taxes?
Hello? Is anyone home? Everything is connected. If one area suffers it will affect others as well. There is no business without customer. I already cut back a lot. Probably others too. And if more would do it business would maybe get a slap on the face - something they really need to wake up.

Cycling Commuter - your VAT list is impressive but it has its flaws. Just because the VAT is what it is in most European countries it doesn't mean everything else is great there. In the case if Hungary I can tell you for sure that the country have been robbed blind by opportunistic former communist leaders for the last 20 years - someone (read the middle class and the poor) has to pay for that - hence the 25% VAT. Inequalities are getting bigger and bigger - thanks for a neo-con, neo-lib government for the last 25 years.

BC HST is 12% !!! - not 10%. Funny how people translate information and miss the small print. That is the first thing you should read!

Healthcare, education and other social services - yes - we are paying for it. And is it getting better? No. It seems we have to fight more and more for the existing services because the government is telling us there is no money. Where does the money go? Ah, yes. They gave themselves 30% salary increase not long ago and all the shannigan that they are not telling us.

The HST must go! If it is that good then the next government can bring it in properly and with common sense. Enough is enough. I'm sick and tired of sending my hard earned money to crooks and greedy corporations and not getting anything back for it.

HST is a horrible tax.

Cycling Commuter, Most of the countries you have listed are close to bankrupcy. Is that what you want with the HST? A bankrupt province? Little or no one pays the VAT in Portugal and Greece. They find ways around the tax because its too much money. Hence the reason why those two countries are about to default on their loans.

The HST is horrible tax policy. Consumption taxes are bad for the economy and bad for the voter. They discourage people from making purchases. And as for taxes on services, well thats just another tax on labour. We already pay taxes on labour. Its called income tax and the HST constitutes a tax on top of a tax when you tax services. We don't need to pay anymore. The government needs to look at the costs of government operations and make some tough choices. It isn't fair that they are spending like drunken sailors and we have to pickup the tab.

Bill Says:

Money doesn't always produce the results the spenders would like:
http://www.news10.net/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=99877

Jerry Brown won the thing.

@ RickW

I still have faith because I'm not hearing the support of the HST that would suggest all that money is producing the desired effect for the Smart Tax Alliance.

I finally got it in the mail.....

....and I have to say that it didn't feel "natural" to check off the "yes" to get rid of the thing. My instinct was to check "no" because I didn't want it. Had to catch myself.........

Why I Am Voting Yes To Axe The HST

First and foremost the BC Liberals misled the voters. Next is the simple fact that this tax shifts a burden of taxation from one group in our society to another without any concern to those who must now shoulder further expense. The other thing that is sometimes forgotten is the lack of regard to our democratic rights. Sadly the last one really nags me the most. Honestly folks can we really support a government that imposes anti-democratic principles on it's own very people?. Voting YES sends a clear message to the BC Liberals that the voters are fed up and basically enough is enough. Call a provincial election and vote these people out of office, once done we can restore not only democracy to the voters but maybe some dignity, hope and pride in a government that actually works for everyone,not just big corporations. Vote Yes on your ballot!

@mars

With respect, I think you need to read again what Tieleman wrote.

This is what he said about the mailer:

The point is that the 'mailer' was prepared BEFORE Ms Christina came up with her 10% sometime in the future gambit - THEREFORE, THE FIGHT HST GROUP COULD NOT RESPOND IN THE MAILER.

Pretty simple stuff - and, if you want to make the case that the HST is Good for the province, why don't you just do that?

I'd suggest, with respect, it's because you can't!

spoiled ballot

I may spoil this piece of paper
A stupid question with NO options

Just another tax grab......

is exactly what it is. This gov't wants us to pay even more tax - in order to allow big corps to
1. put more $$ in their coffers and
2. pay even less tax!
3. leaving us with what exactly???
4. and this will benefit us how??

IMO, they've targeted seniors/immigrants by playing dirty pool in this mail-out...

It is poorly worded, and the 'put envelope A into envelope B, then into envelope C. Oh, and don't forget to sign envelope B, and put your birthdate on it, or it won't be valid. The Yes to dump it and No to keep it ... pathetic!! I, for one, will be offering to help explain it to any seniors that are confused by this, and I'm assuming there will be many! Pretty underhanded.....

The numbers mean nothing

The promises mean nothing. These people make it clear as they can that they consider us too stupid to remember the sharp pain in our backsides that resulted from being bent over and screwed twenty minutes after we elected them based on their lie about having no intention of adopting this thing.

First they said they hadn't thought about it, a clear lie since it was obviously all arranged before the lie was told, and anyone could see that. Except for their conviction that we are as stupid as they think we are, they never would expect to get away with such a transparent falsehood.

Clearly they do expect to get away with it, though. That fact embarrasses and distresses me.

Then they said we are objecting to the tax in comparison with the PST/GST combo. Right from he outset, the objection to this tax had nothing to do with taxes at all, but was entirely based on outrage at the aforementioned screwing. They clearly think that their stickmen and flashing lights will distract us enough to make us forget our own experience, and believe that our objections are based on some financial analysis, rather that revenge for their fraud.

Are we really so stupid? I have wondered why we have so unfunded education in this province. Could it be to make us more vulnerable to these simple deceptions? To prevent us from developing the critical skills to know when we've been lied to, robbed and then fooled again?

Revenue Neutral ! Out right lie!

So what created all the jobs before the 'wonderful job creating' HST.

Sorry wool doesn't go over my eyes!

so misunderstood

Judging by the comments not just here but elsewhere, about how the HST is good for the rich, may I point out that the HST does not apply to most essentials. Groceries, for example. Discretionary spending such as dining out, should betaxed at 12%, and now, with the HST it is.

As far as I'm concerned, the HST as it has been implemented is more fair than the PST+GST, and better for the planet if it is one step away from the taxation of income toward the taxation of consumption.

Too many Adrian Dix...

I would like to see less of Bill-The-Shill Tieleman and more intelligent commentary from thinkers like Krishna Pendakur and Seth Klein.

I would like to see the Tyee tap into a few more public intellectuals like Pendakur and Klein. Why not sponsor a public debate featuring thoughtful people with a position - and again - no shills. I'm an NDP voter from way back and I happen to like Adrian Dix. But I know what Adrian thinks. I want to see LESS commentary political hacks and more acknowledgement of the gray/grey and intelligent debate in my Tyee coverage of the HST.