- Ms Kaye is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Mary Carlisle is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Prem Gill is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Nancy Flight is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Justin Everett is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- John Westover is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Nora Etches is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Edward Henderson is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Bharadwaj Chandramouli is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Dean Chatterson is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Marius Scurtescu is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Robert Parkes is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- James Murton is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Susan Doyle is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Vincent Strgar is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Helen Spiegelman is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Subir Guin is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Kimball Finigan is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Joanne Manley is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- David Leach is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
Come Back Gordon Wilson!
Further thoughts on why BC could use a new party, and who might put it together.
Gordon Wilson founded BC Liberals as centrist alternative.
-
Why the Death of the Liberals Won't Matter
Or, a brief history of the many manifestations of the Business At All Costs Party in BC.
-
Another political party needed in BC: Gordon Wilson
-
Anti-HST organizer Chris Delaney quits BC Conservatives, jumps to BC First
I've recently floated the idea that there's room for a third party of the middle in B.C., and have been inundated (well, some people wrote... hell, a few folks have voiced opinions) such that I thought I should flesh out my thoughts and await another avalanche of responses.
The expression of political opinion as left or right goes back to the French Revolution, referring to the seating arrangement in parliament; those who sat on the left generally supported the radical changes of the revolution, including the creation of a republic and secularization. Those on the right were satisfied with the status quo.
In B.C., the left has been associated with the NDP, and recently, the right with the Liberal party; thus the NDP are seen as strong on social programs and weak on business management, while the right is the other way around.
For 31 years, the voters preferred a sort of hybrid called Social Credit, led by Bennetts I and II from 1952 to 1986. The successor to Bennett II, Bill Vander Zalm, was seen by many within the party as taking it too far to the right, making way for the surprising success of the Gordon Wilson-led BC Liberal party. The reason the Social Credit party was so popular until Vander Zalm is that it occupied the centre, marginalizing the right into an ineffective Conservative party, and forcing the NDP to fight for their recently successful movement to the centre.
Change, indeed dramatic change, came with the demise of Vander Zalm's administration, resulting in the emergence of the Liberal party as a centre party under Wilson, while the right was shoved together in a lump as Socreds and reformers. The Socreds collapsed so completely that a "fencepost with hair could have won, and in fact a fencepost without hair did." (I've used that joke a lot and hope that Mike Harcourt has a laugh because it arose out of an irresistible, but by no way malicious, tickled funny bone.)
The fact is, the 1991 election was "won" by Mike Harcourt and the NDP not because of a sudden conversion to socialism by the voter, but the collapse of the Socreds and the surprising occupation of the centre by the Wilson Liberals. In 2001, a scandal-ridden NDP (whose sins were to pale into insignificance after Gordon Campbell took over) were all but wiped, leaving the traditional political boundaries so blurred they were unrecognizable.
A vacuum needs filling
Politics, like nature, abhors a vacuum and always seeks the proper balance between left and right. In B.C.'s case, that also meant a buffer party in the middle which would, in the past, mean a party that freely pinched ideas from its rivals, forcing the NDP further left and the right further right.
What, then, do we have now?
We have a left unable to lead and present itself as a government in waiting, and a right which is the most unpopular government, if not of all time, certainly since the 1952 coalition which W.A.C. Bennett I drove from power. There is nothing in the centre, leaving an abhorred political vacuum which cries out to be filled, meaning a ripe time for a party of the centre.
Before addressing the challenges of a third party, can the Liberals and NDP prevent this happening? If so, how?
The NDP leadership, so far as we can determine, wants to occupy the centre-left but is having a serious case of political indigestion. It has a leader who wants to move her party towards the centre, but whose tentative utterances have encouraged dissent from many of the party's "Young Turks," while not helping her image with the traditional conservative wing of the party that never liked her much in the first place. At least, this is what appears to the public, and in politics appearance always trumps facts.
The NDP have often trotted out one of their favourite slogans -- they being the party of slogans -- attributed to Tommy Douglas. Namely, that when the government is collapsing, the opposition should just stand back and let it happen. This is nonsense. That's the very time the opposition can stake out positions clearly and firmly.
Unfortunately for the reformers, Carole James is evidently a disciple of the Douglas doctrine.
After Gordo goes, then what?
The Liberal party must, of course, get rid of Campbell as fast as it can, but this doesn't erase the problem if only because there is no leader on the horizon that isn't associated with the Campbell serial scandals. Carole Taylor has all but taken herself out of the game as she has accepted the job of chancellor of Simon Fraser University for three years. Diane Watts, the popular mayor of Surrey, seems uninterested.
It's very difficult to see how the Liberal party can recover its traditional role as champion of the centre.
What, then, of the centre?
In politics, six weeks is an eternity, and what I say in this regard must be seen in light of that aphorism.
The Gordon Wilson and Chris Delaney party?
At present, I see two people who have the ability to raise money and to set up 85 constituency organizations, not to mention a corporate management team for the party -- namely, Gordon Wilson and Chris Delaney. I know both of them well and believe that if they could get together, form a party, cobble together a mission statement, put together a party program, elect a leader, thereafter working together, they could put together a party that would be in contention.
As in everything, overcoming inertia is the problem. An anecdote about Churchill is illustrative of this problem.
Back in the 1920s he wanted to paint, and his ambition was simplistic. As he put it: "... experiments with a child's paint-box led me the next morning to produce a complete outfit in oils." Unfamiliarity with technique could not lessen his determination; discipline and lessons would have to wait. Yet a sense of awe seemed to impose restraint. The budding artist was caught by the wife of Sir John Lavery (distinguished leader of the Glasgow School of Painting) tentatively handling a small brush.
"Painting!" she exclaimed. "But what are you hesitating about? Let me have a brush -- the big one." She showed him that a brush was a weapon to subdue a blank, intimidating canvas by firing paint at it to dazzling effect. Never again did he feel the slightest inhibition.
Thus it is with Mr. Wilson and Mr. Delaney -- the canvas is there to be filled, you have the equipment and knowledge, and all you need do is overcome inertia.
How about the Greens?
On a final note, I've been asked, "What about the Green party?"
If we had a proportional representation system -- any variety of that -- then I would have a different opinion. The problem is that under first past the post, they can't even elect an MLA, much less form a government. The same must be said about the BC Heritage party which clearly is a Christian, right-wing party without a prayer of electing anyone, in spite of their devotion to the Creator.
For the political junkie, the next few months will be fun to watch. ![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
- BC snuffs out AirCare test program
- AFN national chief Shawn Atleo to launch re-election bid
- Citizens group releases video to fight undead Bill C-30
- Conservative MP says he might vote against budget, then 'clarifies' his position
- Genetically modified plants won't take root with councillors in Richmond, BC
- Hundreds at Vancouver rally to support Quebec students
- Could Fort Mac become an eco-tourist hotspot?
- Rick Hansen's Man in Motion anniversary tour concludes in Vancouver
- The Gem of Canadian Science that Harper Killed
- Who Mowed Down the Premier?
- Canada's Economy, Deconstructed (by a 12 year-old)
- Death in Remand: a Tyee Inquiry
- Now Is the Time to Talk up Big Ideas
- Bill C-38: the Environmental Destruction Act
- Sexism Tinges Criticism of Teachers' Job Action
- 'A Gut Feeling'
- Bias in BC's Pesticide Decision? Follow the Bouncing Verbs
- Why Blackberry's Embrace of HTML5 Is Good Karma
- The Gem of Canadian Science that Harper Killed
- Sexism Tinges Criticism of Teachers' Job Action
- Now Is the Time to Talk up Big Ideas
- The Ethics of Addiction Studies
- Bill C-38: the Environmental Destruction Act
- Alberta Fills Pipes with Corrosive Denial
- Bias in BC's Pesticide Decision? Follow the Bouncing Verbs
- How Our Immune Systems Exaggerate Fear
- BC biotech company seeks approval for GM apple
- What's Behind BC's Doors?
- Should You Run from that Medical Test?
- 'The Dictator'
- Death in Remand: Stacked Deck
- 'Moonrise Kingdom'
- Tyee Builders Tally: Amazing!
- From Financial Advisor to Occupier
- 'Storage Wars'
- How Our Immune Systems Exaggerate Fear
- Does Simon Fraser University Need a Men's Centre?
- Now Is the Time to Talk up Big Ideas
- Double lung recipient dances on Ellen show
- ISS astronauts grab DragonX space capsule by the tail with Canada Arm
- Metro Vancouver gas prices peak at record levels
- Ottawa posts $9-billion deficit in March despite pledge to avoid spending spree
- BC phases out AirCare to focus on fighting bigger vehicle emissions
- Tsunami senors to be dropped into deep sea off of Vancouver Island
- Student groups file court challenge against Quebec protest law
- ...while on the streets, pirates and ninjas put aside mutual animosity to join student protests
74
Login or register to post comments
airwin
1 year ago
I only partly agree with this analysis
I do agree that there is a huge opportunity in B.C. for any party right now that can get its act together. But a new party lead by Wilson would have the same issue as the Green's; first past the post discriminates against parties with no incumbents.
Wilson does have an amazing track record for overcoming this disadvantage. His Liberal party came out of nowhere to almost win the 1991 election that put Harcourt in power.
However, that was a very long time ago, and he has accumulated a lot of baggage since so I actually think the Green's have more chance to gain some seats than any other "new" party. After all, right and left are pretty old-fashioned ideas, and the environment concerns an ever-increasing number of voters. Who do you trust most on the environment; the Greens, one of the old parties, or one of the proposed new parties? The answer is obvious.
samuidave (not verified)
1 year ago
rinse and repeat, ad nauseam
"Politics, like nature, abhors a vacuum and always seeks the proper balance between left and right."
What nonsense. 'Left' and 'Right' are meaningless in any empirical sense, being merely relative to the propagandized thinking of the day. There is no such 'proper balance' possible when every party is beholden to its financiers and not the electorate.
The only 'balance', if one wants to usurp the meaning of the word, is between which version of governmental overstep we are willing to stomach. None of the parties is willing to go to bat for the people against the corporations-organizations that give them life, and we know this as fact.
Another party is more of the same BS - unaccountable, unethical, secretive, and indebted to forces other than those credulous enough to cast a vote in their favour.
Fill the House with 85 honest independents willing to take on the oil industry and corporate bullies; let these 85 find consensus through open debate; and let the people finally have a say where this province goes in the future.
archer2006
1 year ago
Wilson? Pleeze, no.
Wilson used to have a picture of a lone wolf hanging in his office in Victoria. Too true. A lone wolf incapable of working in a team.
And then Samuidave suggests we elect 85 lone wolves. Give me a government that presents a common sense plan for righting the wrongs of the last ten years.
James made a good start criticizing the insane tax cut Campbell announced last week in a desperation move. She's on the right side of run of the river and private healthcare. She's been all over the province talking about the connection between education and the economy, arguing against cuts.
Some people don't like how her voice sounds? Give me a break. I'm interested in what she says and it makes a lot of sense right now.
peasant43
1 year ago
it's all gonna be different this time
utopia
An impractical, idealistic scheme for social and political reform.
dark ages
an era where dominant ideology prevents and discourages people from finding rational and scientifically-verifiable explanations and solutions.
Grumpy
1 year ago
In an age of pure malevolent
In an age of pure malevolent evil in BC, Her Majesties Loyal Opposition whimpers in the corner, its leader made unintelligible by media spells.
As Ms. James whimpers and snivels like a little lost dog in the rain, will cost her leadership in the near future and unfortunately for the NDP, long ago discredited dogma will once again cost them the next election, even with a new leader.
that all being said, I will vote for the party or man/woman who demands a full criminal investigation of the BC LIBERAL PARTY as part of their election platform.
Barryeng
1 year ago
Rafe, You're wrong
"For the political junkie, the next few months will be fun to watch."
Rafe you are wrong. Politics in BC used to be fun to watch, up until about 5 years ago. Till recently you could pick a side, any side, and argue your point vociferously. Even the first few years of the Campbell regime could be seen as more or less theoretical.
Now however, it has reached a point where railing against the present government has become a desperate, matter of survival move. Campbell and his cronies have done so much damage to the province that we cannot afford a third party, or even more or less polite argument. If we have to replace every "Liberal" MLA with an NDP MLA, then so be it. At least then we will have stopped the deliberate damage being done to the province and even though it could take a very long time to repair all this damage, we could go back to polite arguments about what is the "correct" way to run the ecomomy. Right now, we have no choice but to replace what we presently have as soon as possible.
Bob Wiley
1 year ago
Artificial Divisions in the Political Spectrum
Leftwing, rightwing and centerist are symbolic terms used to artificially divide the continuous spectrum of political philosophy into manageable groupings. This averaging not only doesn't reflect the true nature of the political spectrum it also frames the discourse into a linear relationship when a circular one far more accurately symbolizes the body politic of all western countries.
Just as red, blue and yellow are used to simplify the continous spectrum of a color wheel into 3 'primary' colors when in reality no such divisions exist we try to label political philosphies into groupings that in reality exhibit no hard divisions. Instead a continous circle of political thought morphs from one position to the next to the next without any sharpe divisions.
In America the media uses terms like RINOs [Republicans in name only] and Blue Dogs [DINOs?], conservatives and liberals, libertarians and anarcists to divide the continuum into bite size chunks. The emergence of the TEA Party has begun to melt these arbitrary chunks of the spectrum. Are TEA Partiers Rebublicans? Libertarians? Blue Dogs? Conservatives? All of the above, a bit of each or none of the above? If we follow the linear logic of the left-center-right metaphor we'd probably put anrchists are the furthest 'left' next to them, heading toward the 'center', would be socialists then mainstream Democrats, then comes the DINOs and RINOs, the mainstream Republicans, the TEA Partiers and the liberatrians furthest to the 'right'.
The linear metaphor puts anarchists and libertarians as the two most apparently distant groups when, in my opinion, these two artificially labeled groupings are kissing cousins philosophically. Anarchists and libertarians are no more different in political philosophy than say RINOs and DINOs. The circular metaphor, in my opinion, much more accurately reflects the real relationship of America's, and all western country's, morphing political paradigms.
The circular metaphor offers an alternative to the political dead end of our current artificial divisions. With it libertarians who see big government as anethma realize they have cousins at both shoulders not just one. Anarchists, who equally despise big government, do too. Likewise issues like gun control and marijuana legalization can be understood as philosophical cousins. So too for any of the diverse and colorful combinations on the political wheel. Circular logic shows us we are all cousins because, seen through the circular metaphor, all people and their intricately woven individual paradigms are equally distant from the 'center'.
Fiat lux
1 year ago
The international corporate
The international corporate mafia, owners of the Liberal/Reform/CRAPP, now ruling Canada from coast to coast, will see to it that their choice will win, so they can get total control.
The threats and blackmail against an NDP, or any other government, will start within a year, or so, and with their power of "investment", begged for by all parties, they now have the opportunity to wreck BC and Canada, forcing people will beg for their dictatorship and total takeover.
Politics are not fun and games, but legalized theft and in many cases, mass murder, excused and licenced by religious and ideological theories.
History is full of examples and precedents, yet keeps on repeating itself because of humanity's ingrained gullibility and stupidity.
How on Earth people like Campbell and Harper can get elected to any office with power over people's lives, is beyond comprehension ?
Ed Deak.
Fiat lux
1 year ago
The political left and right
The political left and right are not on the horizontal, but on the vertical scale, like the letters C and F on thermometers, divided by a thin line.
With the kissing cousins of communists and capitalists at the top, both sides dreaming of the death of any degree of democracy.
With their dream fulfilled in China and spreading all over.
Ed Deak.
stver
1 year ago
Third Party?
Rafe, in the last election you told everyone you were going to vote for the Greens?
Now, you're telling us that you want to see a new party, whose commitment to the environment is totally unknown at ths ppoint in time.
Why have you turned away from the Greens?
Could it be that their leader is absolutely hopeless and that the Greens support the HST?
Recently you have spent a considerable amount of time critizing Carol James. Why don't you turn your attention to YOUR party and start asking what the Greens are going to do with their leader and why are they supporting the HST when it is so obvious that it is a loser?
stver
1 year ago
Third Party?
Rafe, in the last election you told everyone you were going to vote for the Greens?
Now, you're telling us that you want to see a new party, whose commitment to the environment is totally unknown at ths ppoint in time.
Why have you turned away from the Greens?
Could it be that their leader is absolutely hopeless and that the Greens support the HST?
Recently you have spent a considerable amount of time critizing Carol James. Why don't you turn your attention to YOUR party and start asking what the Greens are going to do with their leader and why are they supporting the HST when it is so obvious that it is a loser?
seth
1 year ago
Rafe's just doesn't get it
"It has a leader who wants to move her party towards the centre, but whose tentative utterances have encouraged dissent from many of the party's "Young Turks," while not helping her image with the traditional conservative wing of the party that never liked her much in the first place."
It is annoying that Rafe despite being corrected many times, persists in repeating the MSM mantra that opposition to Carole James is to do with policy.
The revolt has nothing to do with policy. It is to do with a demented, egotistical, stupid and incapable leader who couldn't win election if the BCLiberals ran the town dogcatcher against her.
The NDP in the tradition of modern social democratic parties is already close enough to the centre. What it needs is a leader whose presence is not so odious that people will feel comfortable giving it their vote..
seth
1 year ago
another way
There is a way for progressive forces to move both parties to the centre.
It would require a relatively small number of organized activists to buy party memberships taking over the party and outvoting the undesirable incumbents. That's how we ended up with Harpo and Gordo.
Lets not make the same mistake misguided Green Party activists did, taking the very foolish route of another party without the help of the web-based Interactive Voter Choice System.
Read more here
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/76823
A few busloads of wacko religious nuts coordinated from Alliance church headquarters in Boulder Co was all Harpo needed to take over the CRAP political organization.
One busload from the Sikh temple and Chuckles Cadman was out.
With almost nobody interested joining /attending riding association events these days, a group of activists using IVCS and dedicated volunteers to coordinate activities could take easily over the both the BCLiberal and NDP parties.
deeby
1 year ago
I'm baffled
Rafe, I get most of your article. Not sure I agree entirely, but I get it.
However I'm utterly confused by your suggestion that Gordon Wilson and Chris Delaney could somehow make common cause and create a third party.
Apart from their apparent inclination to consider BC's interests first, and not continue selling the province down the river, what do they have in common? One is a dyed-in-the-wool small-'l' liberal, the other a small-'c' conservative.
Ideologically, they don't seem to be from the same planet. They're only united in what they oppose.
How could that possibly work...?
alive
1 year ago
GO James GO!
Hmmm, replace Gordo with Gordo?
Replace the drunkard with the one who left his wife to wash his underwear while he flirted around?
Seriously, we do not need a third party, there are enough centrist parties already!
Concentrate on replacing James, the feminist.
The one who might as well insist we elect only blue-eyed members to replace blue-eyed members.
The one who fails to grab any opportunity to explain her views and seem happy to stay as an unknown quantity to the electorate.
dustytrails
1 year ago
There is already a party rising in the middle
Hi Rafe,
There is already and party rising in the middle (where all the people are) and its called BC First. BCFirst.ca
I'm sure Gordon Wilson and just about anyone looking for a common sense alternative to both the BC Liberals (and their back-up plan BC Conservative Party) and the NDP are welcome to join.
I think we are all fed up with being told what the debate is on the right and the left. The Right is corporatist and the Left is labour in BC. They are both in bed with each other. Since most of us are not either its time to bring everyone else to the table to find common ground and work to take our province back from both corporate and union monopolies.
Cool Hand
1 year ago
Political Vacuum
Gordon Wilson? An old has been.
Chris Delaney? A retread Zalmoid.
Gordon Campbell? A goner.
Carole James? You gotta be kidding.
A huge political vacuum exists in BC right now and the individual who captures the imagination of the populace will capture the electorate at the ballot box.
Several weeks ago, Dianne Watts stated “The [premier's] job is not available so I think it is significantly premature for anyone to be looking in that direction.”
And when Watts was asked whether her mayoral run in 2011 was “carved in stone” there was a 4 second pause before she responded “Nothing is carved in stone”.
Watts is just playing coy.
An October 28 Province newspaper editorial succinctly sums it up:
"Dianne Watts! Please Save Our Province!"
"With the Campbell era limping to its self-inflicted death, with Carole Taylor off to SFU, and with NDP leader Carole James remaining stunningly unimpressive, Watts has emerged as the natural choice to lead B.C. She's honest, she's practical and cares about regular people. Think about it.
Read more: http://www.theprovince.com/Dianne+Watts+Please+save+province/3738298/story.html#ixzz1439JrLfk
Go Dianne Go!
alfman55
1 year ago
Come Back Gordon Wilson -- you CAN'T be serious
As in the names you mentioned above (the Zalm, the Bennets, Harcourt, Carol James, etc) Gordon Wilsons time in the sun has past.
There is indeed as you mentioned however, a place for a third party, and it happens to be one that while dormant for some time is already making it's presence know -- that is the BC Conservative Party.
Constituency Associations are being formed through-out the province, including my own riding of Kamloops South Thompson which will be holding a meeting at the end of this month to officially become recognized, with Kamloops North Thompson to follow.
The BC Conservative Party are going to provide our province with a clear choice and vision -- and one voters will not have to hold their nose to vote for.
Fiat lux
1 year ago
The BC Conservative Party is
The BC Conservative Party is just another name for Reform, ready to sell the province to "wealth creating foreign investors".
I wouldn't be surprised if the corporate mafia will indeed kill the BCLibs and buy the BC Conservative Party for their stooges.
Ed Deak.
anarcho
1 year ago
We Have a Centre Party Already!
I don't agree . We already have a centre party. It is called the NDP. We don't need another. Here we are faced with a triple crisis - peak oil, climate change and the global economic mess. We are sliding toward totalitarianism as the media speaks with one corporate voice, political parties all sound the same and demonstrators are rounded up like in some Third World hell hole. Where is the NDP in all of this? What we need is radicalism, not wishy-washy. Not radical as extremist, but radical as telling the truth and getting to the root of the problem. What party is honestly confronting these problems? Who is exposing neoliberalism/neoclassical economics for the lie that it is? Right now we should be planning for a life far less petroleum-dependent, where quality takes precedence over eternal growth, and where people have a say over what concerns them and are no longer controlled by corporations and the politicos that whore for them. Do you really think another centre party would meet these challenges?
anarcho
1 year ago
Greens OPPOSE the HST!
Stver, it is simply untrue that the Greens support the HST. In fact they categorically reject it. Who told you they supported it? They were lying. See http://www.greenparty.bc.ca/node/274
Skywalker
1 year ago
Just maybe.
If Gordon Wilson came back and reformed a centrist party it is quite possible that the NDP would stop trying to be centrist and get back to being progressive. That would not be a bad thing. The NDP might lose some votes to the centrists and so would the Campbell non liberal party. That might work. Then if any party won the majority of votes they would have to form a coalition with the party closest to their ideals. Maybe the extremes would perish and that would be a blessing when you consider where Campbell has been taking BC.
alfman55
1 year ago
The BC Conservative Party is ...
Hello Ed … I have no idea where you are getting your facts about the BC Conservative Party; however a few things that we do actually stand for include giving priority to the four pillars of Canadian society -- health care, law and order, education, and a social safety net.
We also believe government that must recognize the need for all programs to be affordable, effective, and accountable with clarity of purpose ... and that good government is conducted with truth, integrity and honesty. This can only be achieved through openness and by providing the people of BC with the full knowledge of government service delivery.
I have checked and doubled checked party policy and beliefs and no where did anything about the BC Conservatives being “… ready to sell the province to wealth creating foreign investors" … or being a part of the “Corporate Mafia”.
Scare mongering these days just doesn’t cut it --- people thankfully can see right through it.
airwin
1 year ago
Re: Greens OPPOSE the HST!
Thanks anarcho for that link to the Green's position on the HST. That's a thoughtful and informed anti-HST position that I can really support.
alive
1 year ago
alfman55
"I have checked and doubled checked party policy and beliefs and no where did anything about the BC Conservatives being “… ready to sell the province to wealth creating foreign investors" … or being a part of the “Corporate Mafia”.
And you sincerely believe they would tell you if that was their intentions?
Instead of reading crap, study what the federal conservatives have done, and draw your OWN conclusions
alfman55
1 year ago
Re: Instead of reading crap
As my closing comment said ... Scare mongering these days just doesn’t cut it --- people thankfully can see right through it.
Fiat lux
1 year ago
OK alf.....Where does the BC
OK alf.....Where does the BC Conservative Party stand on foreign investment, free trade, globalization, the WTO, the IMF, privatization of services, minimum wage, Harper, etc. etc.
How many of the leading lights have been with Reform ?
Asking these simple questions is hardly any fear mongering.
The so called "conservative" parties and ideologues all over the world are little more than outright fascists.
And I grew up and was educated as an arch conservative/fascist and have pretty good idea what the ideology stands for. Took me years to wake up and wipe out the brainwash.
Ed Deak.
MGS
1 year ago
MGS
I believe that we must be rid of the Liberals immedietly and can not wait for the next election date.
We know that the liberals haven't got the guts to call an election so we'll have to do the recall thing or with any luck the Liberal mla's will turn on their leader and do the job for us.
Refedbcdotcom
1 year ago
@ Seth
Seth you comment:
"It would require a relatively small number of organized activists to buy party memberships taking over the party and outvoting the undesirable incumbents"
I agree with that statement when referring to the majority of BC political parties.
However, that tactic will not work in the case of the BC Refed party, since the party constitution is set up to prevent that kind of tactic.
Much thought has gone into creating the Refed party constitution and a subsequent Refed installed BC constitution.
Once a voter ratified BC constitution has been made law, only the people of BC have the power to change it.
No future party would be able to make any changes. Which is completely the opposite to what all political parties currently do!
BC Refed will:
1) Install a constitution that the voters have agreed upon.
2) From that new constitution, Refed will transfer the ultimate power over the government to the voters by way of binding referendums.
3) Refed would renegotiate fiscal arrangements with the central government, Such as keeping direct taxes in BC
alfman55
1 year ago
I grew up and was educated as an arch conservative/fascist
Regrettably it sounds like when you were growing up there was little room for you to hold and have your own ideas.
Life however means there are very few absolute things that are black and white … and that individuals and people will have varied ideals and beliefs … unless we have a dictatorship in family or in government.
The ideals of the BC Conservative Party however give me enough confidence to believe that they will use their core beliefs to guide in the development of policy when they have the opportunity to be in government – which hopefully will be the election of 2013.
I am also personally looking forward to having input into the policies of the party as they are developed – as will all members of the party.
As some one who grew up third generation NDP, and went from there to the federal and provincial Reform Parties, I know from first hand knowledge that how we see things at one point in our lives, is not always how we will see things.
It sound like that has been a case in point for many others in BC as well.
samuidave (not verified)
1 year ago
foundation first
archer2006 ~ your shilling for the dysfunctional NDP is funny. They are continually trying to get their make-up on right while forgetting the fact that they need to remove the last application first and start with a strong foundation.
Skywalker ~ see above. Is the concern with simply winning an election, or do we want our interests represented? The NDP is willing to shape-shift however needed and in its distracted state cannot find, let alone give, a comprehensive view on the future; Solutions are light-years off its radar.
alfman55 ~ "BC Conservative Party; however a few things that we do actually stand for include giving priority to the four pillars of Canadian society -- health care, law and order, education, and a social safety net."
Yet another party that refuses to see that the foundation must be constructed before erecting the pillars. And that foundation is called democracy where the people, not entities, are represented.
This cycle of BS politics across Canada and its provinces will continue forever until the government is made fully accountable to the people through the principles of democracy: "of, by and for" the people.
MGS ~ recall, yes, before any further damage. Law suits to follow for criminal breach of public trust. Of course no party has the ethical fortitude for such high-handed conduct against its own kin.
whatthe
1 year ago
win win win
The time has come for this development.
I agree with posters who disregard the right left paradigm, it has outgrown its usefulness as the column itself refers to a "traditional" conservative sect in what is the continent's only socialist party. Which means the right left exists within the party's not without and this is what is crippling contemporary politics. You need only look south to see the "socialist" president implementing the third Bush term to understand why voters have given up completely on the old left/right paradigm.
That said the notion of a new party is warranted in BC as the traditional parties have disconnected from the electorate.
A new party could gain power with a clear and unambiguous platform and names like Wilson.(Not so much Delaney but he would be a good face for conservative support of a new party.)
In the end the result would be a win win win for BC. A real alternative is a win. Forcing the Libs to the extreme of the spectrum where they belong and allowing the NDP to take its proper place is a win.
Disciplining these parties for trying to be all things to all people while simply driving a wholesale big business agenda is a win.
Another result could be no clear majority which would be welcome and certainly halt the bilderberger's wholesale dumping of our assets.
As it stands no party at this point deserves to "win" the next election.
James is hell bent on taking Harcourt's path to power and the Libs won't succesfully dump the worst political history in BC on their leader to reinvent themselves, people simply will not accept such garbage so far removed from reality.
And the greens, well it is time we quit letting a third party split the vote for big business.
A real leader with Delaney's HST list will capture the massive swell of discontent with all things political. Wilson has that ability but he needs Delaney's list and a real team.
Build it and they will come. Rafe, Corky, Wilson, Delaney, Huntigton, Simpson and maybe a few converts from existing encumbants and you got yourself a win for BC.
fairweatherfriend
1 year ago
Political Vacuum
Right on Cool Hand!
A new and independent party headed by Dianne Watts is necessary. Th Libs are dead, the NDP is gaining, but......, and the Conservatives are a non-event.
Support or development of a new party by familiar names such as Gordon Wilson or Chris Delaney would probably have a negative impact on the paty's popularity, given their established biases. Dianne seems to thrive in a non-confrontational, non-traditional party setup: let her continue to do so.
Onhly one downside: BCs gain with Dianne at the helm would by Surrey's loss!
alfman55
1 year ago
RE: Whatthe ... and "A real leader with Delaney's HST list ..."
I for one signed the anti-HST petition; however I DID NOT sign it with the intent that my information would be used to create or further a new politcal party -- nor do I beleive most people did.
IF Delaney was to use that list for the purpose of promoting his new political party then he would immediately be starting off on the wrong footing.
Given the concerns most people have been expressing about the lack of ethics in the political arena, this would not be a very postive start.
CanadianLatitude
1 year ago
The only way the NDP can win
The only way the NDP can win other than dumping James is for a viable 3rd party to split the vote.
in spite of their devotion to the Creator.
=======
Zeus? Odin? Jupiter? Ra? Flying Spaghetti Monster?
Jerry Munro
1 year ago
Patient Heal Thyself...
"What nonsense. 'Left' and 'Right' are meaningless in any empirical sense, being merely relative to the propagandized thinking of the day. There is no such 'proper balance' possible when every party is beholden to its financiers and not the electorate." samuidave
Balance !!??
For sure what this country needs is another Party of the centre/centre right, who above all else, wants to be "business friendly". That'll balance the old teeter-totter alright.
My gonads!
What this country needs is for everyone to abandon all these bullshit parties, and instead, for the working class through unions, existing and yet to be created, and the broad community citizenry to be organized no less than these unions, to take control of the economy and society themselves. There's already too much pandering, share, and "stimulus" welfare spending going to "corporate business" mooches, crooks and bums... and all the current parties to capitalism are in on it, without exception.
Until this begins to happen, compelled by the times and the collapse of "the system", and there being no other real or serious choice but..., just keep sucking and trying not to swallow.
We're in a barren desert in these times, and all the water around is just a haze mirage, and the Lone Ranger doesn't exist anymore than the tooth fairy. Nor is there any self-proclaimed "vanguard party" sane persons with even a modicum of little grey cells should trust or follow. Nobody is riding to save you. Patient... heal thyself.
Fiat lux
1 year ago
alf.....Anybody, who ever
alf.....Anybody, who ever gave the time of day to somebody like Manning, or Harper, has little to say about understanding the issues.
The biggest collection of fascist nutcases, including Campbell, under the covers. That was one of the reasons why Manning fought against a BC Reform Party. Because there was already one, called BC Liberals, just as they're now called federal Conservatives.
I noticed that you very carefully avoided the question where the so called Conservative Party of BC stands on various issues now enslaving and destroying humanity and the world.
In the name of "freedom" of course, I had the opportunity to hear from fascists, nazis, communists and now capitalists.
Ed Deak.
alfman55
1 year ago
Hey Ed ... sorry if you feel
Hey Ed ... sorry if you feel I sidestepped the issue ...
Given the fact though that I am only one member of the party; I cannot possibly speak for all. I do know however that with the following value, in which I agree 100%, the BC Conservative party does not espouse the promotion of policy that promotes, “... enslaving and destroying humanity and the world"
From the BC Conservative Party website -- Our Values
"People’s well-being is best guaranteed by the freedom to pursue legitimate self interest, to enjoy the fruits of their labour and to own property."
I don’t wish to see anyone anywhere held back from achieving their own safety and well being, nor do the people I choose to come into contact with each day.
Reggin
1 year ago
Please DON'T come back Gordon Wilson
[OFFENSIVE COMMENT DIRECTED AT A TYEE WRITER REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]
The NDP are doing exactly what they should and so are the Conservatives.
The Greens simply need to merge with the NDP. their strongest ally, to have a voice in the next government.
The liberals are about to crash and burn with no sttong leader in the wings.
Bring on the Left vs. Right election to see where the province really stands.
whatthe
1 year ago
The "HST" list
Anyone who believes the HST list is for anything else than partisan purposes is dreaming in technicolor.
It is the list that will decide the next election whether you signed it for that purpose or not.
I mean come on, people are "mad" because of the HST? Really?
There is a 3000 character limit so that would limit my critique to the first year of this government on reasons much larger than the HST to despise the campbell cronies.
HST = Hacks selling treason
Fiat lux
1 year ago
Alf....what exactly does
Alf....what exactly does "self interest" mean and who ever denied the right of anybody in Canada to own property ?
E.g. How about the $45. million the CEO of the Royal Bank took home in 08, while the employees were paid paeanuts?
I've been a business and property owner in BC since 1957. The only government that put me into the poorhouse, that took years to recover, was Bill Bennett's Socreds, causing a BC recession soon after they took power in 75 when they doubled the ICBC rates overnight, killing thousands of small businesses.
But the does the "right to own property" include, or legalize the robbing the property owners rights of millions, in the name of "globalization" and "efficiency" ?
What is the conservative definition of economic efficiency?
More imports from slave labour countries so their commie millionaires can bring our money back to buy up the country resources from under our feet ?
Ed Deak.
dorothy
1 year ago
Fiat lux
"kissing cousins", how I love your analysis! It is my hope that I'll be that kind of up and running, when I hit the eighties. Thanks, Ed, for giving me a distinct ambition for that time!
lynn
1 year ago
This is it? To quote Peggy Lee: "Is that all there is?"
Is that all you've got?
Then....
No thanks.
There has to be a better way to fill a vacuum in life than with a politician.
These strange and challenging times keep trying to tell us that, don't they?
alfman55
1 year ago
Re: ... exactly what does
Ed ... I guess I have to believe that there is still goodness left in humanity, and that we would like to give a helping hand when we can, rather than throw a person in the ditch.
I also have to believe that there IS NOT some fascist -- communist -- socialist hiding under every bed. Yes there are those individuals and corporations that will grab for everything they can, but thank goodness they are still the minority -- at least I hope they are.
You believe what you believe -- and I'll believe what I believe -- and I guess we'll leave it at that.
Cauled
1 year ago
Geens
Who needs a new party when we have The Green Party of B.C.?
Though it would be nice if they suported thier own policies "Support positive lifestyle choices so our citizens lead healthier lives" by not letting Jodie Emery run for MLA again.
She seems to have a addiction to pot as her you tube videos clearly show. Hard to vote for someone that records herself taking huge hits off the bong, just as it would be damaging to GC if he did the same with a bottle of vodka.
sdgreen
1 year ago
Vision
None of the current political parties in BC, and for that matter Federally have any vision to advance ur purpose as a society. Each of them are totally narrow of vision or polluted by imperfection of self interest groups.
The Last political leader in BC that had any vision was WAC Bennett. The rest of the pack are mere rand amateurs. The current crop of Liberal / NDP leaders are completely incompetent and deserve zero support.
Politics has become a zero sum game of manipulation and deception that really does not produce anything what so ever for our economy, our people and real solutions for our people.
The entire political party system needs to be fully sanitized, re-educated and refocussed. We need bold action, problem by problem.
The Liberals of the rightside have utterly failed and the NDP of the leftside are totally incomprehesible. There is no middle of the road political entity in BC, sadly.
We need a political movement that is truly centralist, that promotes the principals of equality, that is fair and totally honest, that treats the common man equal to that of the well to do, the disabled and less unfortunate with compassion, the business both small and large with productive support, that exploits the concept of common sense laws, that consults the people with major changes.
British Columbia needs a brand new leadership to run government that neither the NDP or the BC Liberals or any apparent existing party can provide.
Wilson, nothing more than an opportunist, is not the answer.
damngrumpy
1 year ago
wilson leadership
While I agree that people need a strong alternative, I question at this point who should lead it. Gordon was treated badly by the NDP, so if he chose a different path no one
could blame him. The truth is Gordon is short
on time even to work with Delaney, I don't think
they would agree long enough. The fact is after today voters will hit the Roof with campbell literally it appears. The Liberal will implode in the next election. I would still put my money on the NDP, but I like Wilsons position
anarcho
1 year ago
On the contrary, Cauled. If
On the contrary, Cauled. If Jody Emery was in my riding, I just might vote for her. The Greens platform is getting rid of that evil law which makes cannabis illegal. And what have you been smoking that gave you the idea that it is addictive? Yeah, and masturbation makes you go blind and you can get VD from toilet seats...
samuidave (not verified)
1 year ago
comments
marlonbrando ~ "How many people here had a tomato in their sandwich or their salad today? Guess what? ...Oil was used in its growth, transport, storage and preparation. ...Hypocrisy is such a trait amongst ..."
Did you know it takes 80 man hours to produce a loaf of bread in our society -- from plowing & fertilizing, harvesting, cooking, shipping, packaging, stocking and selling, etc? Hypocrisy is rampant in our world, and corporate-capitalism leads the charge.
alfman55 ~ "Yes there are those individuals and corporations that will grab for everything they can, but thank goodness they are still the minority -- at least I hope they are."
The corporations operating the globe are legally obliged to seek profits, that is, to grab for everything they can.
alfman55 ~ "You believe what you believe -- and I'll believe what I believe -- and I guess we'll leave it at that."
I'll go one better -- "You believe what you choose; I'll believe what I know" : Kevin Spacey - Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil
RickW
1 year ago
cool hand
Then it's quite obvious that the only way to vote is for individuals, what samuidave advocates, and not for anyone associated with a political party.
Fiat lux
1 year ago
This brings up the question,
This brings up the question, by whom and how would be the premier and other ministers, or office holders, be selected, or appointed, in a parliament of individuals?
I have no problem with the theory, being a strong individualist myself, but what would be the practice and who would make the decisions ?
Ed Deak,
RickW
1 year ago
alfman 55
All you have to do is ask yourself where the necessary money comes from the run an election, and what the donors expect in return. At present the only deep pockets are stitched to the trousers of the corporations (remember that we are going through a "jobless recovery" - which means that the traditional source of funds for the NDP, individuals and unions, is threadbare - and which means that the banks and other corporations are loaded). That is why Carole James is "courting" the business world. And that is why the BC Conservative Party absolutely MUST court the same sources. And these people do not make an investment in anything without expecting a return.
So it matters not what your constitution says - it's what hoops you are expected to jump through, should you be successful at the polls.
loblollyboy
1 year ago
Yes, But Where?
Yes, but where are we going to find a truly modern party to truly represent our interests? Both the current NDP and Socred/Reform/BCLiberal parties seem are stuck in the past. Incompetent Left vs. Corrupt-to-the-marrow Right.
And by 'modern', I mean any party capable of representing a truly 21st-Century technological reality and not some stupid 1970's ideological re-tread of 'free-enterprise vs. socialism' hack-work---which is pretty much a lot of what I'm seeing---but something which actually represents us as we are **now**, not then, forty years ago.
Jerry Munro
1 year ago
Constituency Loyal Electoral System vs Party System...
"This brings up the question,
This brings up the question, by whom and how would be the premier and other ministers, or office holders, be selected, or appointed, in a parliament of individuals..." Fait Lux
The only practical, and most democratic way, in my view, would be for the entire Parliament of Individuals (elected constituency reps_to nominate and vote on a premier and cabinet as its first order of business. It certainly beats a small corp of party hacks or even a non-elected (by the entire population) convention of party minions, again in my view. (Over time, with modern computer based systems, it might be possible to evolve a second phase system in which a field of nominees for premier and cabinet goes back to the citizenry for selection. Which would be the ideal, from my perspective. )
All this said, I am constantly reminded by myself, in these alternate electoral system discussions, that there is a need to beware of the ruling class money wealth, capable of flooding the field with "individual" candidates and propaganda loyal to capitalism, and outflanking any democratic change process.
That said, when and as the economy is democratized (at its commanding corporate heights), and ruling class "share" and "power" base influence is minimized to the new "share arrangement", then this risk is also minimized with appropriate laws and oversight evolving as well. One cannot proceed in a meaningful way without the other however, in my view. As "the new" electoral democracy proceeds to be implemented, and this ruling class manipulated and controlled system is replaced, it is necessary as well that a new "democratic economic model" be implemented and set in motion as well. Each line of development is dependent for survival on the other. (Which is going to require the co-operation of trade unions and other yet to be created working class and community/environmental organizations, helping to carry through and enforce the new economic arrangement AND electoral system.)
Still, I see nothing wrong with allowing for a learning curve, in which a new "individual" electoral system proposal is used as the thin edge of the wedge to open up the entire power struggle game that will almost certainly ensue, have no doubt. (Which does not presume or is an advocacy of violence, just a simple attitude and action direction that says "This is going ahead over any and all ruling class/neoconazi opposition... regardless."
Also, to the degree that interest does arise around samuidave's proposal, unless there is a sudden upwelling of interest and support, which I do not expect at this stage of things, as folks do come on board, there is going to be a need for co-operation and discussion amongst all of us... sooner or later.
Skywalker
1 year ago
Say What?
Sometimes the debate here bears a frightening resemblance to the debate raging in the US this past few weeks. I mean here we have had the NDP in power in this province for a total of 13 years at various times and the rest of the more than a hundred years it has been run by a succession of right-wing groups. The last time the NDP got into power it inherited a $2.4 billion dollar deficit (not debt) and they were expected by all to change the world just like with Obama in the U.S.. The media, business interests and even the labor movement to some extent provided nothing but criticism. Now based on that 13 years out of 125 years the NDP are judged. People use the same rhetoric the only difference is we don't have the racist element in our debate.
Dave Barrett in 1971 was said to be moving too fast. The first NDP government in a 100 years and he was moving too fast? Harcourt in 1991 was said to be moving too slow for the left and too fast for the right. So now we have this silly notion that the 125 years of right wing government and 13 years of left wing government is fair comparison to make judgments on both houses. What crap.
I may conclude that Carole James is not the right person. I definitely know that Campbell is the wrong person but some of the debate gives me the same creepy feeling I get watching the Tea Party loonies in the states blame Obama for the mess the U.S. is in. After only two years and a war going on blame Obama? After 13 years out of 125 with the NDP a pox on bothe your houses?
Beam me up Scotty!
lynn
1 year ago
Equally subject to influence
Independent candidates are neither a better alternative nor a worse one than political parties.
Politics is about influence....until you make it about something else.
Once in awhile you find a really good independent candidate but most seem one-issue focused, or come out of that Chamber of Commerce mentality: They like attention. They like the sound of being a director on a board.... or They just like running things and running other people.
Palin and O'Donnell in the US come to mind.
And that new mayor in Toronto.
Better to just give them a talk show...where at least they can do no harm.
( To Skywalker: I loved Dave Barrett...and I agree - He is never given enough credit for the significant changes he made. )
deeby
1 year ago
Cue the endless repetition....
...of the dark days of the nineties frame.
No amount of debunking by Will McMartin, or anyone else with economic sense and the ability to carry out simple research can loosen its grip on popular consciousness.
The big lie is here to stay....truth has nothing to do with it. Those who propagate it have done their job exceedingly well.
kmdyson
1 year ago
NDP 'forced' to the left
As a life long CCF/NDP supporter, I would be only too happy if this happened...the NDP in its' current incarnation is insipidly centrist attempting to appeal to business...a group that will never whole heartedly embrace them... J.S. , T.C. and the rest of the old time democratic socialists are surely rolling in their graves...
Skywalker
1 year ago
deeby
But does the big lie of Nazi Germany prevail today. No! So you keep on fighting "the grip on popular consciousness" until it ain't popular any more.
Jerry Munro
1 year ago
More On Party vs Independents...
While I tend to agree "some" with Lynn, allowing for a danger to the "independent" candidate concept, no less than exists in the Party based system, with "independents" being subject to ruling class/business corruption no less than ALL the current Parties, I certainly do not agree with Skywalker that a Tea Party kind of development here, would necessarily be a negative. It is coming anyway in my view. The question is, is it going to arise "predominantly" out of a movement of progressives and the serious Left, or is it going to be the Loony Bin Right?
I advocate for the former of course, that it should be initiated by a broad coalition of "progressives". In the end it would be "communities/constituencies" that nominate and elect of course, in which environment as now, said "progressives" would still have to compete with the unequal and "superior resources power" of the Right and the business class.
What it achieves as a positive, in my view, :-) is it blows the whole so-called "democratic" system and issues agenda of society and the economy wide open. Which similarly opens up new opportunities and paradigm possibilities as well as "dangers", again in my view a positive.
A struggle for serious change needs to be begun in society and the economy, and what is, clearly, keeps it dumbed down, safely controllable for the ruling class, and is simply incompetent and ineffective anyway. It needs to be challenged with a struggle for alternatives in choices and mandate.
The Tea Party concept, with a name change of course, nationalizing it, so to speak, and with the initiative of the Left and progressives "outside" currently accepted "vanguard party movements", including the NDP, would, in my view, clearly be a positive. It would sure as hell shake things up, and cause considerable fear and trepidation in the established halls of power, wealth and influence.
But what it changes most, this "independent candidates" concept, is, outside of being an ancient tribal kind of direct democracy system almost, as well as making candidates accountable and loyal to the communities they represent, over party hierarchies. This latter being the major flaw with the current system.
A struggle to transform society has to begin somewhere, in some shattering of the norms form, and here is as good an opportunity as any to do it.... be there the courage and the will out there. :-)
samuidave (not verified)
1 year ago
You cannot even speak up...
in a party-run government. There is zero consensus building. There IS a lot of talk about tweeking what government does, but nothing about how government operates.
"Independent candidates are neither a better alternative nor a worse one than political parties."
As individuals, no. How they are able to function in government, you are dead wrong provided government is filled with independent representatives. This way one has to corrupt more than just the Party, which itself exists on high finance and is a crime in the making -- subverting democracy.
"Politics is about influence....until you make it about something else."
And that is why we put in independents responsible to their constituents first, and if they stray their influence ends. This way we can make politics about stewardship of the resources and people at large. Our human needs and humane desires are accounted for, and not just about the subsidized profit ledgers of unethical companies.
I agree with using direct democracy by the elected members in selecting the premier and ministers. But I envision a primary need to have this first transitional government pass legislation that safeguards the peoples' representative democracy for the future: limited campaign donations made by only real people; direct democratic votes on all issues in the house; quick and effective recall legislation; funding for local MLA-run polls on issues throughout the term; etc.
We cannot fight corporatocracy with money; we cannot gather in the streets and protest without fear of arrest; we have to beat them at their own game -- shaping our consent.
This means we must gain control of our thinking. We must ask ourselves some serious questions about governmental behaviour and whether we condone such acts? If not, then why have we been supporting it electoral season after electoral season?
When we understand the game, when we see the propaganda, then we can easily free ourselves from this cognitive charade.
First we understand what our vote truly sanctions. Then we use our vote wisely to liberate ourselves from corporate rule.
"Activists have to remind the American people of what they've already learned but seem to have forgotten: that they don't want more government, or less government; they don't want big government, or small government; they want government on their side." ~ William Blum
I have to break it to you folks, but political parties in BC have proven without fail that they have not been on our side for decades. Though the party system may actually allow some well-intentioned candidates, these folks are rendered impotent by the party financiers.
Don't be fooled that this time it will be different. It's broken. And we can fix it. Find an honest and competent independent candidate(s) in your area to support.
If you aren't willing to do this, then explain to me how else we are going to peacefully get out of this mess?
VivianLea Doubt
1 year ago
moving along to this thread...
"Politics is about influence....until you make it about something else." Thanks, Lynn. Yes, let's make it about something else, please.
"And that is why we put in independents responsible to their constituents first, and if they stray their influence ends. This way we can make politics about stewardship of the resources and people at large." samuidave - politics can only be about stewardship of resources etcetera if the people who are electing said representatives decide it should be about stewardship of resources. I don't have a problem with your idea of voting for independents - I like it, in fact - but it only solves a piece of the problem. The same can be said for any (democratic) political system whether currently in use or proposed - they all depend upon the voter to participate, to be informed, to show up. (Truth is, if that was happening now, we could make our current system work.) So we need to figure out the way to get people to do that...it ain't going to be done with more facts, endlessly repeated. No one is going to step forward as a visionary hero (or likely not anyway,'cause they are rather few and far between). Leaves it up to a few of us to figure out how to engage the rest...and as we all know, just showing up to vote is not engagement.
I think we are going to have to tell stories - real stories - eloquently and passionately of the people of this province,and what things could be like...I think we are going to have to be true and honest and remind people of what they value most - family, community, culture - and I think we are going to have to let would-be politicians know that 'influence' is no longer being peddled in BC...This is not in the least idealistic, but intensely pragmatic, for it is in our power...and never underestimate the power of stories.
samuidave (not verified)
1 year ago
VivianLea Doubt -- it only solves a piece of the puzzle?
That's terrific!! Nor was Rome built in a day. It all starts with the first step, and until someone tables a better solution (and I'd be glad to get on board if it was), then what's the problem? What are we afraid of: doing worse for ourselves than Campbell?
To date, we have been delivered exactly ZERO solutions to the corporatist puzzle or to the unrepresentative party system; nor have we ever been offered any effective expansion of democracy.
As it stands, I don't care if we get every voter in BC to show up, knowing we are informed with mis-information about the political party paradigm, the results are going to be the same: NDP or Liberal; Pepsi or Coke, or some generic knock-off brand.
The problem is that the system perpetuates its control through manufacturing our consent coupled with never ceding the people full democracy. We are given one chance at election time to choose something that works for us as human beings. We choose to let our own creation, the government, work for the rich kid's make-believe sociopathic friend, the corporation, rather than for ourselves.
This proposal is a solution, at least in part. There is no controlling a political party. We do not own it. We do not have shares in it. And it does not take its orders from us. Today, the political party is just a corporate subsidiary fraudulently paraded around as a representative of the people. And it can make this claim because the people continue to vote it back into control.
Are we honestly that afraid of the power structure that we don't dare act in our interests rather than its? Seriously, could 85 random people off the street do worse?
Bad ideas flourish because they are in the interest of powerful groups — Paul Krugman
Support for a political party candidate who is invariably committed to the party line, which is determined by forces unseen but with the paramount objective to make profits, IS A BAD IDEA.
Jerry Munro
1 year ago
Making Omelettes 101...
"Are we honestly that afraid of the power structure that we don't dare act in our interests rather than its? Seriously, could 85 random people off the street do worse? " samuidave.
Unfortunately, the answer to your question, even in our much vaunted, over-blown "democracy", is "Yes.", folks are afraid. And not entirely without good reason, unless there is the safety in numbers of a massive movement of people to hide within, already magically built and placed on earth :-)... and even then. (That's why there are so many folks waiting for Jesus, to come again and clean up the mess for them.) And indeed there ARE those of us here, including yours truly, who know very well the consequences their "radical", opposed to capitalism views and actions brought them in the yet not entirely distant past. (Even now, CSIS is doubtless a very attentive member of the audience here, making "lists" and writing down "quotes", you can bet.)
So, this has to be understood by folks right up front... that there are risks to political action, no less than there is in life generally, very often. It is the same danger that exists in the mere fact of living, crossing a busy street, falling trees, being a seaman at sea, a street hooker. Shit happens and risks have to be taken in the getting of near anything "significant" done. Same as in making a living.
Which is why these "big political things" only tend to get done when there are sufficient masses of folks who feel they have nothing to lose... and by the few fearless anytime.
That said, you are providing a cogent and intelligent analysis and defence of this "independent candidates" concept... and I essentially, with the warnings I indicate, agree with it.
The current party system is the definition of corruption and frankly, political cowardice. A new direction needs to be struck despite risks and pitfalls. Even though the risks and the potential for corruption will likely always exist, certainly especially for so long as capitalism exists and private money wealth is the measure and raison d'etre of all things... and are hence not an honourable excuse for inaction of themselves.
continued next post...
Jerry Munro
1 year ago
Making Omelets 101-2...
from previous post...
But, and it is a really big but, this "democracy change" notion, let alone the much thornier and even more dangerous issue of transforming the "class power equation" within the economy, is not going to be won without masses of people being prepared to commit to it and, if necessary, take to the streets in its defence. If this isn't understood going in, or its consequences are over greatly feared, we all might as well stay hunkered down in our homes and political wilderness for awhile yet. (Where I am actually quite comfortable and grown lazy in my old age. To be honest. And I am not inclined to waste my time. :-)
To be some trite, if it is an omelet you want, you is gonna have to be prepared to break a few eggs... or eat your burnt toast instead, and be satisfied with it.
(Though I am really hungry for an omelet. :-)
For Love, Peace and The Transformation of Society :-)
lynn
1 year ago
Agree to disagree
"And that is why we put in independents responsible to their constituents first, and if they stray their influence ends."
Isn't that the very same expectation we have of party candidates - with the very same consequence? eg. A straying party candidate is not re-elected and is replaced by new one. A straying independent candidate is not re-elected and is replaced by another one. Again, good 'faith' is extended to the 'new' one until he/she proves otherwise.
And so it goes.....
"As individuals, no. How they are able to function in government, you are dead wrong provided government is filled with independent representatives. This way one has to corrupt more than just the Party, which itself exists on high finance and is a crime in the making -- subverting democracy."
Again, I see no large difference between a party candidate and an independent candidate, not in terms of integrity or accountability. Independents may have a slightly later spoil date on their label - but the decomposing process of influence is the same.
I just don't see the argument being made for independent candidates convincing enough in revealing a vast difference between these two choices.
Have you ever closely followed a town council or city council? In our town, they are all elected as independents. (It hasn't as yet morphed into the open partisan groupings you see in Vancouver...not yet... not in the open...but behind closed doors, yes.)
Observation reveals that independent candidates are just as highly corruptible....and in an amazingly short space of time. The congealing jam of influence begins its work almost immediately and makes a nice mushy sandwich of the heretofore independent ingredients.
It is rare that someone stands up against these ' highly persuasive' sandwiching forces. I witnessed one brave woman stand up to the bullying forces of the council she was serving on. None of the other 'independent' members came to her defence, and she was harassed and literally run out of town in fear of her life. BC Civil Liberties later launched a suit against this council on behalf of this woman councillor and two other local citizens. The BCCL won the suit against the council.
A few years later. 'New' council. All 'new independent' members. Rebirth? Nope. Same old game now being presently played - under the same old forces of influence, immovable, clinging there like barnacles on a rock.
With independent candidates/the morsel is being packaged differently - but it is still feeding the beast.
VivianLea makes a good point here that:
" politics can only be about stewardship of resources etcetera if the people who are electing said representatives decide it should be about stewardship of resources."
For me, this is more of the issue - that our desires must become more potent and powerful than those of corporate influence.
Right now their desire is trumping ours.
They want it more badly.
And it shows.
samuidave (not verified)
1 year ago
Let's put some action behind our mouths
re: And that is why we put in independents responsible to their constituents first, and if they stray their influence ends.
lynn ~ Isn't that the very same expectation we have of party candidates - with the very same consequence?
With no ill intent, it might be the same expectation if one hasn't a clue about party politics. Which is exactly my point in trying to illustrate the folly of thinking party politics can ever be representative. It circumvents democracy by its very nature.
So, lynn, what is your suggestion? I can follow political blogs all over the 'net which offer commentary on the events that passed, relaying the public record.
I read folks in here, generally a sort of progressive crowd, digging in their heels, adamant that a move toward independent candidates urged forward from the grassroots is not even worth the risk. You say, lynn, 'their desire is trumping ours', but you are certain the problem lay elsewhere.
Evidently we have no desire. We do not even want to see a way forward. Somehow 'our desires must become more potent and powerful than those of corporate influence', but only if it spontaneously happens. Is that it?
We folks do not have much to work with: we cannot match their control of wealth and influence; their advertising and propaganda campaigns; their embedded media and its forceful message; their indoctrination of the youth in state schools; nor can we take to the streets without being corralled and/or arrested.
But we still have the internet, at least for now. And we do have an idea that could work, but ONLY IF we can spark a fire and get the majority of disgruntled citizens on side in the old fashioned way -- by word of mouth and exchanging this simple idea. How else can we even fathom combating the system?
I've voted independent all but twice in my thirty-odd years attending the polls. It may be a battle we cannot win, but it is at least one tactic we have available thanks to our prior apathy. When is it going to matter enough to do more than complain?
lynn
1 year ago
Not complaining
I identify with much that you say here in regard to the difficulty of the struggle, samuidave, but I am not defending party candidates here - I am saying electing independents is no more revolutionary than electing party candidates, because the powers of influence still remain.
"With no ill intent, it might be the same expectation if one hasn't a clue about party politics. Which is exactly my point in trying to illustrate the folly of thinking party politics can ever be representative. It circumvents democracy by its very nature."
Independent candidates are no more representative. Instead of a party you place your faith in one man or woman - who is just as susceptible to influence.
Again, you see this in action on a small scale, in mayors, councils all around this province.
In order to get IPP's in place, in order to sell BC Rail, in order to get local citizens on side - THEY got supposed independent mayors and town councils on side first. And soon the small scale influence of supposed 'independents' inflates into large scale consequences for the democratic process.
"I've voted independent all but twice in my thirty-odd years attending the polls. It may be a battle we cannot win, but it is at least one tactic we have available thanks to our prior apathy. When is it going to matter enough to do more than complain?"
I have also voted for independent candidates - but I don't think they are necessarily any better than party candidates - because again it's an illusion that they are free of the same influence that affects party politics.
And really some of us are doing more than complaining, working hard to change things in this province...but there are also a lot of people sitting home and waiting for the moment of Godot's arrival.
He/She ain't coming.
We participate where we can most effect things ....and refuse to participate in the subterfuge.
samuidave (not verified)
1 year ago
I get it, even a small chance at a little more accountability
...isn't worth pursuing.
"Independent candidates are no more representative. Instead of a party you place your faith in one man or woman - who is just as susceptible to influence."
No, instead of a party and a shadow party, a group of two both accountable to their financiers - often one and the same, we place our faith in 85 independent people whom we have tried to pull-up from the grassroots. Folks who are not necessarily the typical lawyer-businessman-government type, but people who have proven themselves to be honest, ethical and competent.
I think we need to participate in all things we can which may bring change: shop locally; reduce, reuse, recycle, compost; behave honestly; write letters to government; attend marches for civil rights and democracy; and support an honest independent representative you know from your area.
lynn
1 year ago
Outside
"I get it, even a small chance at a little more accountability
...isn't worth pursuing."
I didn't say that at all.
I'm fine with independent candidates.
But I am not as idealistic as you are that they are free from influence, nor will remain so, or that you will easily or quickly enough find 85 independent candidates that will all act as a cohesive group...or that you will find ones that our very 'complicated/complex' Left will all agree that these are the candidates they want to represent them.
"but people who have proven themselves to be honest, ethical and competent."
That is the assumption made by every supporter of his/her candidate isn't it?
Again, I'm not saying not to vote independent, go for it - only, that this is politics, after all. So buyer beware.
Same controversial belief I hold about women and politics.
Our real power lies outside of the system.
samuidave (not verified)
1 year ago
We are getting closer, lynn...
lynn ~ re: "I get it, even a small chance at a little more accountability ... isn't worth pursuing."
I didn't say that at all.
I know you didn't, but I think you downplay its significance.
lynn ~ "But I am not as idealistic as you are that they are free from influence, nor will remain so, or that you will easily or quickly enough find 85 independent candidates that will all act as a cohesive group...or that you will find ones that our very 'complicated/complex' Left will all agree that these are the candidates they want to represent them."
Ahh, but I am not idealistic that problems won't arise. I just see, and am trying to point out, the power of 50%+1 of the 85 needing to agree versus the desires of one.
lynn ~ re: "but people who have proven themselves to be honest, ethical and competent."
That is the assumption made by every supporter of his/her candidate isn't it?
Really? I completely disagree. The folks engaged in the voting process certainly knew without doubt that Gordon Campbell was a criminal, a liar, and a corporate shill; they also know that only the leader matters in our authoritarian system of governance. So we can conclude his supporters, anyway, know but do not care about such frivolities.
I suspect there are more non-participants who do care about such things, but lump all parties and politicians into the same soup, and for good reason. The authoritarian party governments have shown their criminality far too often over the decades to be trusted anymore.
lynn ~ "Again, I'm not saying not to vote independent, go for it - only, that this is politics, after all. So buyer beware."
Absolutely!
lynn ~ "Same controversial belief I hold about women and politics."
People are generally corruptable when put into shady environments which protect such behaviour -- race, creed, sex, aside.
lynn ~ "Our real power lies outside of the system."
Here is where I disagree. We are allotted one opportunity every four years to put in the government of our choice. We simply do not recognize the enormity of this power we hold so rarely. If we act ethically in our interests, and not for the interests we are sold through propaganda and electoral season commercials, we'd have a tough time voting for these corporate-backed parties.
We make think our power is outside the system, but the system is reflective of us. We are the system. We have been intellectually persuaded to look elsewhere for results, and not to ourselves. In one day we could completely overturn our authoritarian governance, but that one day only comes on voting day. It is for our own safety, and for the future we leave our off-spring, that we all come to realize this fact.
samuidave (not verified)
1 year ago
one thought to clarify
lynn ~ "Our real power lies outside of the system."
Your personal power may lay outside the system, but our real power is within.
See my point?
lynn
1 year ago
Postscript ;-) Is any one still out there?
Enjoyed reading your reply, samuidave. We agree on much, but it would be no fun if we agreed on everything.
"I know you didn't, but I think you downplay its significance."
Not really. ;-). I'm just suggesting using the same caution as with party candidates because it's all politics whether independent or partisan as was quite evident in the co-option and politicization of the environmental movement where previously independent environmentalists clamored to be on boards alongside Mulroney, and here in BC, alongside Campbell.
"Your personal power may lay outside the system, but our real power is within."
While I acknowledge the difference you are noting between 'the one' and 'the many' I can't agree for the very reason you state here:
"in one day we could completely overturn our authoritarian governance, but that one day only comes on voting day."
You see, I believe it is all the days between voting days where change actually happens. It is in the personal choices we make in our lives. That's all we've got....and those are our weapons....and they are powerful ones.
As Arundhati Roy noted about a unique quality of tribal resistance:
"And, the real fight here is that the most totalitarian of all systems is the capitalist system. The reason that these tribal areas are under attack, and that they are able to resist in the way that they are resisting is because they are outside the capitalist system. It’s because they don’t have cell phones and credit cards and commonplace dreams. It’s because they don’t have unique ID cards. It’s because they cannot be controlled in the ways that we can be controlled."
It's why in my previous comment I brought up the issue of the deeper and deeper participation by women in the system, which is ironically resulting in a deeper and more insidious control over the lives of women, even though we now have 'the vote'.
Sadly, the imagination involved with the liberation of women only imagined women inside capitalism, so we are stuck there, just like men are.
And we are controlled by its machinations, just like men are, and this failure of imagination on the part of both men and women, this failure to imagine any possibilities beyond the corpse-like status quo of what actually constitutes 'life', has even more sadly, bequeathed this same fate to our children.
Now, with both men and women fully participating in the madness, there is little wiggle room for an escape hatch for our children.
As that really smart guy said...and I know you are very familiar with this quote, samuidave (paraphrasing now) - "you can't change anything by using the same old consciousness that created it in the first place."
It's why I continue to believe our real power lies more and more outside the tired, old, and corrupt imagination of a tired, old, and corrupt system....
samuidave (not verified)
1 year ago
re: "in one day we could
re: "in one day we could completely overturn our authoritarian governance, but that one day only comes on voting day."
lynn ~ You see, I believe it is all the days between voting days where change actually happens.
I think ideologically we agree; like it is said, give me one generation of children and I will change the world, where religion, wars and famine are relics of the past. ;)
Cheers