Frank,.... I was talking

Frank,.... I was talking about polls, not votes.

In any case, if people wouldn't change their votes we would always have the same numbers and the NDP would still only have 2 MLAs.

Ed Deak. .

The Liberals will lose if Vanderzam or others manage to get enou

The Liberals will lose if Vanderzam or others manage to get enough life into an alternative right wing party to split the vote. AND/OR if the Greens support the NDP. IF NDP has some secret way of splitting the right wing, great. Tieleman's supporting the VdZ anti-HST campaign might be part of it. But let's say this works. Then what? What would an NDP gov't actually do? Would it repeat the errors of last time, being anti-green (remember the Clark green/terrorist quote)? cut welfare further? promote Hydro foreign adventures? Get lost in pro-business posturing (remember Miller)? Allow major excisions from the ALR on political grounds (recall the Kamloops case)? We need, YESTERDAY, clarification of party values, vision and policies, and start working on how to implement them if the right wing splits (NDP wins). Examples: Why hasn't Carole James supported clear anti-poverty targets (as suggested several years ago by CCPA)? Why not announce removal the special tax advantages to gas and oil exploration? Why not argue for putting teeth into environmental assessments? Why not suggest re-introducing the capital tax on banks? Why not comb the Green agenda with a view to getting their explicit cooperation -- or at least support from green voters who have a snow ball's chance of getting elected. If the answer is that an upfront policy alienates the right sufficiently to keep them from fracturing, so be it. Last time, NDP ended up doing right wing things for lack of long-term commitment to an alternative vision, and working on how to realise it. Let's not repeat.

offended

You have no reason to believe NDP support would be higher. For the rest of us to believe the NDP should be at 60% or something I would have to have some historical evidence that's even possible.

The NDP is a badly divided

The NDP is a badly divided party, with useless socialistic principles that died with the Soviet Union, Mike Harcourt, and Glen Clark.

At least the BC Liberal caucus are fully united behind a man that has done so much for the welfare of British Columbia.

BC did very poorly under the Barrett stint of the 1970s, and hopelessly poor under their decade of discontent in the 1990s.

Look at the radicals in charge of Vancouver right now? Do you seriously think that the NDP has any chance, with or without James as leader, to defeat the BC Liberals?

Unfotunately, the NDP is not a credible alternative. And, until a credible alternative is found, the BC Liberals can do anything that it wants to do (and get away with it), with or without Campbell as leader.

The common people are not of the left. They prefer the warm and caring, kind and sharing attitude exuded by the BC Liberals. They want a government that supports free enterprise and fair taxation for all. They are opposed to redistribution of wealth and pandering to the union community.

BC truly has the government that it deserves.

Gidget

For crying out loud. Campbell has sunk to a 12% approval rating in opinion polls. Pathetic. And he has let the BC NDP legitimately nail him for the minimum wage, which should have gone up along time ago amongst other reasons.

When Campbell first came into office in 2001 he promised lots of things. But what we saw was the same cutbacks province-wide that caused Bennett problems - in conjunction with tax cuts. He should have slowly decreased taxes but he didn't - and then we had a few years of large deficits as a result.

Campbell has always been a negative lightning rod and, as Ed Deak so rightly points out, Campbell's post-2001 actions resulted in the major NDP rebound in 2005. Even if the NDP ran a broom as leader in 2005 and 2009, they still would have made those tremendous gains. Carole James or whoever had nothing to do with same.

And the Liberal "brand" is not tarnished in BC. It' Gordon Campbell's brand that is tarnished. Replace Campbell with either Carole Taylor or Dianne Watts then the political dynamic/narrative in BC will again substantially change.

Ya might on the mark in a certain respect. Damn I used to admire the Soldiers of the Guards Regiment "Friedrich Engels" marching at a changing-of-the-guard ceremony at the Neue Wache on the Unter den Linden in Berlin. Their Prussian military uniforms, jackboots, and goose-stepping made their West German counterparts look like sissies. :D

Gidget

I can see it tears you up inside to hear the economy and population growth and forestry and manufacturing and hospital waiting lists and school class sizes etc etc all did better under the NDP.

Although you are right that some things are bigger now, like poverty and the debt.

You go girl

Oddly Frank

You never heard that idiot Carole James saying the economy and population growth and forestry and manufacturing and hospital waiting lists and school class sizes etc etc all did better under the NDP either

She smiles sweetly (stupidly) like the programmed automan she is, and let the politicans and pundits walk all over her on that one like a true doormat.

The woman is dumber than a bag of hammers with a her empty head open for programming by the likes of Moe Moe Moe Sohata. The voters sees that and stays home on election night.

seth

Not being one of her advisers I don't know why she doesn't defend the NDP record.

I assume she expects people like Vaughn Palmer and Bill Good et al to make snide comments about it and since they're the media and she isn't she wouldn't be able to defend that record.

Kind of like what Vaughn did to Corky last week. Twist an old comment of his about the Berlin Wall. Corky can't defend it. No one else can either so Vaughn's comment stands.

So she's probably getting advice that says avoid fighting with the media, instead smile sweetly and act non-threatening.

"The common people are not

"The common people are not of the left. They prefer the warm and caring, kind and sharing attitude exuded by the BC Liberals. They want a government that supports free enterprise and fair taxation for all. They are opposed to redistribution of wealth and pandering to the union community."

You're being sarcastic, right? Either that or completely out of touch or somethin'. Holy cow.

Anonymous comments should end.

It appears quite clear when something favouring the BCNDP is published, the comments are more than ever on the attack and as usual, anonymous. Certainly if I worked as a communications person with the BC Liberals, I would post as often as possible, anonymously.

As for Bob Simpson and his friends, I've spent months speaking to thousands, fundraising for the BCNDP on the phone. Sure there were some who expressed their frustration with our leader and most of them were men. But it didn't amount to an unusual number and certainly, the polls show that our support is stronger than ever.

Right now, the BC Liberal spin machine is in full mobilization, trying vainly to support Bob Simpson's rather baseless claims.

Will there be a leadership review, if we the members want one, yes.

As for the NDP record - and defending it...

I don't have much use for Moe Sihota - either before he became the president or since...in fact, it was at least partly his incompetence as a cabinet minister (from time to time) which led to the near-demise of the party in 2001.

But, I digress.

That same political panel on the CBC from which Luke so fondly and frequently posts (it came on this past Tuesday and about 30 minutes later in the morning show than it usually does) also included a speech by Moe Sihota which was a pretty strong defence of the 1990s and the NDP record in comparison with the Campbell regime's numbers.

I'm surprised Luke doesn't 'quote' from that part of the panel's transcript.

As for James not defending the Clark/Harcourt record - the suggestion that she hasn't - or that the party's website hasn't done so too - is nonsense.

You can't get the press to report ANYTHING the NDP says - that doesn't mean they haven't been saying things. But stir up a little shit on the party and 'everybody' throws it around.

Again, James screwed up on this file - but she has a far better record as a party leader than Gordon 'fuck you Elayne' Campbell - and that’s the only comparison that REALLY matters.

Folks, re: Gidget --don't feed the trolls

NM

Fellow Posters We Have An Even Bigger Problem

That The BC Liberals are now hated and also Carole James has recently used too much ammo. Seems to me some changes need to kick in and the sooner the better, Perhaps it's as part of our return to democracy. BC has a lot of problems but neither party is necessarily really working on any of them.From reports on both sides I've read about some nasty infighting, dissagreement on policy and Campbell's dictorial style of so called leadership, Choas does seem to rule but we the voters must rely on mostly media to see it or understand it view a website like here at thetyee

membership leadership review?

Not likely since the crew that programs autobot James also controls convention delegate selection.

Get the real skinny on this issue here.

http://powellriverpersuader.blogspot.com/

David - Or the loyal New Democrats

who don't care for this "new direction" that Carole and Moe (why is he back?) are taking us in could leave the party, thus killing it, since I don't see a huge influx of new members clamouring to join.

Do you listen to people David? During the campaign and all throughout this HST debacle, people have said again and again, "who are we going to vote for? We don't believe a word the Liberals say and I wouldn't vote for Carole if she was the only candidate." You need to get out there and listen...

Schreck missing the point

David Schreck's article only points out that the current system and way political parties "play" politics is stale and deeply in need of change.
I think Bob is trying to point out that no one is inspired by what the NDP is doing (regardless of what the liberals are up to) and that things have to change if the public is going to take an interest in more than media stories 30 days before voting.
How about real inspiration everyday?

Just asking:

So, why is Moe getting paid for a volunteer job?
Who decided that his advice is worth paying for?

Leadership Review

I personally believe Carole James has a lot of integrity and will do the right thing by stepping down. But I fear her strings may being pulled in an effort to move the NDP to the right (thanks Moe) which will doom the party to opposition status once again.

As a long time union and NDP supporter (since 1972) I will also be voting Green if Carole is still leader.

SeaG

Carol James has my vote

All the same and Simpson well he would have my respect if he would have quit like the census guy or like the advocate who was speaking out for the war vets or like the Liberal minister who quit over the hst.
But this is cry baby stuff and it is a shame. I hear the riding association wants to hold a leadership election and its a good call so party can focus on the province and its people rather than the parties politics.
Teilman asked if someone knew what 2015 was going to be all about as things will be stagnate for someone time to come. Who is going to make the difference the really rich or the working stiff in getting us out of the financial crisis we are going to be in? Its the working class that is going to bring us out the mess the rich got us in and with a lot of hard work things will turn about with a party that backs the people rather than big business who is more than capable of looking after a couple of politicians and itself. As long as there is a party that looks to the rich for solutions you will have problems to no end.

Voting Green

And if the NDP wins power without the support of the Left I'm sure Leftees will claim it proves they were never left-wing to begin with.

Fine, I'll happily accept an NDP government without so-called left-wing support. After all, the Greens are further to the Right than the NDP so maybe most left-wingers aren't as left-wing as they claim? It would certainly explain a lot around here.

I can see the campaign slogan now, why stop at the Greens? Vote for the Campbell team if you're a true left-winger that hates Carole James.

Economy, economy, economy

Is going to be the number one thing on voters minds
and with the knowledge that the BC Liberals are going to be voted out along with the Federal Conservatives you will have those that feel they would be a better leader instead.
Campbell was voted back in because many felt the NDP didn't understand business enough during the recession and Campbell did. We can now all see and feel how the Liberals close affliation with big business helped the province out. Or was that big business helping themselves to the province is more what it is all about?

People should once come to

People should once come to the realization that business is not the "economy", only a part of it, and when the public permits the loss of the control of the economy from their hands, disaster follows.

Endless historical precedents on what happens when a special interest sector takes control of the "Management and distribution of scarce resources", which is the textbook definition of economics.

I've been in business in BC since 1957 and never had the slightest problem with following the public interest and never demanded legalized thieving rights to fill my pockets.

Ed Deak.

Schreck should stick to his forte - number-crunching

As he says, any party that puts out an election platform until just before the election will find the media yawning. Never mind the media, the electorate has rejected her last two platforms, and she won't reveal her next. So how, pray tell, has she "taken the NDP to record highs"?

Others here have noted the obvious answer. She hasn't taken the party anywhere. Any spike in polling is the result of the litany of transgressions piled up by Campbell and his merry band of acolytes. Most, and certainly those Schreck listed, were inflicted before, during, and between the last two elections. The electorate still didn't buy what she was selling.

Now he would have us believe the secret to NDP success is a "new direction", developed by the same leader who brought us the last two. And in case anybody has any doubt that it will be her direction, Schreck says, "She is showing that she can stand up to elements in her party who resist her in charting a new direction."

Seems to me the only heads rolling so far are those who have the temerity to propose a new direction. Good news for the Fibs.

James Rode the anti-HST Gravy Train to Polling Highs

Mr. Schreck cannot beleive that Carol James is responsible for this fragile bump in the polls. If so what has she done to produce this? Once the liberals have a new leader who opposed the HST and without policies, sound alternative ideas to offer, and either a changed or new leader, the NDP will be where they were at the last election, at best.

Ed Deak said:

People should once come to the realization that business is not the "economy", only a part of it, and when the public permits the loss of the control of the economy from their hands, disaster follows.

This is a fundamentally important set of points. Far, far too many people seem to be harbouring under the impression that business is not only the be-all and end-all of the "economy", but that business is also somehow holy. Well damn it all, it ain't holy, and it ain't sacred, and neither are the thieves, crooks, liars, and cheats who are the majority of the so-called business leaders.

I am really confused by the few s bits of strong support for C James. Zalm, in another thread, has some good points about James's approach to media, and I think zalm also rightly questions who is there to replace James. Nonetheless, I think she's useless. I cannot recall any party leader who so consistently and frequently dropped the ball on so many critical issues and occasions.

Ass Kissers and The Co-opted...

"And if the NDP wins power without the support of the Left I'm sure Leftees will claim it proves they were never left-wing to begin with." Frank

No. You are wrong. Each and every one of us, with their heads on, will hope that you prove us wrong. Power is important, Frank. But there is also more to it than just "power". And it's that you folks don't seem to have.

We just think y'all have become part of the system, and are as full of bullshit as the rest of them.

"I have often wondered if those powerful forces of Big Capitalism would ever allow a duly elected New Democratic government to function anywhere again. " BC Mary

While the NDP certainly poses no real threat to capitalism and its big corporations, the ruling class's fears can certainly be irrational in precarious times... and you could be right. Certainly history wherever the NDP has been elected waves a red flag as to their hysterical irrationality, even in the best of times. Also, the current fascist period and the success they are having with it, dismantling the old Social Democratic State of Capitalism, has made them even less tolerant of anything that might even have one or two lefties in a closet within it, in some dark, dank recess where the sun never shines. 8-)

We shall see how these co-opted bourgeois Social Democrats fare, IF... On the other hand, my experience was that the system certainly uses ass kissers and those that they can co-opt, but they don't get no respect... from any side. :-)

They came for the Jews first, last time around. This time it will probably be Natives, and then us, and then you. :-) Just about the same as last time.

Armchair Politicians

Politics is a "team sport", and all members on a team should be working for the team. Just as employeees shouldn't be airing their dirty laundry and undermining their companies and bosses, a quality politician should understand that he/she should discuss and forward their views with other team members, but not in public.

Bob Simpson obviously doesn't understand this concept, and continues not to. It is very unfortunate that a good number of people writing comments here don't seem to understand this concept either.

If Carol James didn't do what she did, they would be damning her for being weak kneed. No wonder Campbell was so able to pull the wool over the populace's eyes with all of his lies and deceit. Being honorable and true to one's beliefs doesn't seem to be enough in our political world; and that is why the Clarks and the Vander Zalms get into power with their personas.

David Schreck is a seasoned intellect who puts forth valid arguments in this article, and forgive me for agreeing with him rather than several of the armchair politicians who write here!

"Politics is a "team sport",

"Politics is a "team sport", and all members on a team should be working for the team. Just as employeees shouldn't be airing their dirty laundry and undermining their companies and bosses..." gsarahs

Wow! I think I will just let this stand on its own. And this is an NDPer... from the way she talks here.

Again... Wow!

We have a serious problem Houston.

Politics is a "team sport"

Coyoteman is one of the armchair politicians I was talking about, with all of his fanatical ranting and random sprinkling of words like "fascists", "Social Democratic State of Capitalism", and other twaddle.

You should try to avoid sarcasm as it tends to weaken your argument, and obviously from your previous response to my comments, you are unable to grasp basic concepts like the ones I made! Sports teams like the Canucks and Lions understand, but not you. While you are "showing your spots" by resorting to labelling me, I am not an NDPer, rather a non-right winger!

If anyone should be saying "Wow!", it would be anyone else after reading your constant rants!!! They are almost funny. It's too bad that you seem to be serious.

"Sports teams like the

"Sports teams like the Canucks and Lions understand, but not you." gsarahs

Again, you are on your own, good woman. :-)

Leadership

Why can't anyone in the NDP persuasively make the case to British Columbians that we don't have to cut shady deals to sell everything we own to CN or GE or Kinder Morgan? BC is a smaller marketplace and insisting that everything has to be sold to the highest bidder just means that most of the wealth from our resources will go to somebody outside the province.
Instead of jumping on a sleazy political opportunity to "fight the Carbon Tax", why couldn't anyone in the NDP embrace the chance to explain it the way the Liberals apparently couldn't (ie: it is NOT a new tax, it is a reallocation of taxation to finally make those who pollute pay for the real cost of their contamination of the air, land and water we all depend on).
I see little leadership to lose here, and the gains are mainly the result of Liberal fumbling.

last election

She got a grea6t deal of feedback about her performance in the last election and her stubborn position on the carbon tax. She needed to show flexibility and openess rather than rigidity.
This feedback came from disappointed card carrying NDP members.

I LOVE IT, TOTALLY LOVE IT....LEFT VERSUS LEFT!

Hahaha!

Your party is being torn to pieces with one pinko wonk going after another; all just because your leader refuses one MLA to freely express himself on his blog....How pathetic! No respect for democracy! You people have the nerve to have "Democratic" as part of the name? Democratic Centralism as espoused by various Communist parties, maybe!

Meanwhile, Recall will fail.

Bill Vander Zalm and Chris Delaney will be proven the jerks they are.

Those who were duped into signing the anti HST petition will finally come to their uneducated senses and realize how good Premier Campbell has been for us.

The NDP is as dead as the Communist Party.

People Are Pissed at Carol.....

....because she doesn't exude brimstone and damnation over the "misdeeds" of the Liberals. And they are almost equally pissed because she doesn't lay out her agenda for "fixing" the "misdeeds" of said Liberals.

Well, with voter A.D.D. the vitriol would be wasted with 2-1/2 years yet to go until election day. And, if any of you were leader, would you invite the opposition to examine your strategies, so it could run all over you on the day of the battle?

Frank: Switching Support

"ou know of people who were actual Campbell voters in the 2009 election that are now supporting the NDP?

I don't. Not even one."

I know two, my wife and I. IN Cariboo South. We watched the NDP do all sorts of dumbass stunts, like freezing college tuition(that starved universities of income), "re-organizing government departments" every year, pie in the sky nonsenser and we voted for the soclibcons. NOW wwe have watched the GordoGang give away BCRail, it's properties and every river in BC, as well as every damn timber license.
I PERSONALLY fed BCRail swindle information to the NDP, well PRIOR to the last election. Did they use it? Nope. Most of urban BC remains in the dark as to the giant BC land swindle that happened.
I am waiting for policy and a CLEAR direction of the NDP. How long is it going to take?
Shreck can make excuses, quote stats and figures, blah, blah, blah. Guess what? PERFORMANCE is what counts. NOT "Image", NOT PR, just real, down to earth RESULTS.

Gidget.... I have a 45 year

Gidget.... I have a 45 year record of fighting communism, with the scars and records to prove it.

Do you have the faintest idea what the hell you're talking about?

China is tbe best showcase of how communism and capitalism work together, enslaving people, because they're brothers under the skin for the collectivization of the economy in the hands of ruling classes.

The communists have persecuted, jailed and murdered hundreds of thousands of people in the occupied countries, who were suspected of having been, or were known social democrats.

The capitalists haven't reached that depth yet, but with people like you it is only a matter of time.

In the meantime their theory is killing 30 million, most of them little children, every year, with starvation, bad waters and easily preventable sicknesses, to feed the insatiable demands of the multinational corporate mafia. .

Some record to be proud of, with ignorant idiots waving their flag .

Ed Deak.

NDP plays BS Obama card

coyoteman~ "We just think y'all [NDPers] have become part of the system, and are as full of bullshit as the rest of them."

Maybe more so since they also claim to care about people whereas the Liberals make it abundantly clear they are here to pillage resources for corporations. It is BC's version of The Obama Deception.

gsarahs~ "Politics is a "team sport" ... a quality politician should understand that he/she should discuss and forward their views with other team members, but not in public. "

Yes, gsarahs, we are well aware of the political gamesmanship in- and out-side of Party politics. The concern is this 'sporting event' works in secrecy and without open representation of the constituents for any riding. It is undemocratic, at least as far as riding by riding is concerned.

If an MLA gets a clear signal from his/her constituents and it happens to be contrary to the Party line, and assuming he/she was unable to persuade the Party to change its view, how does a publicly mute MLA kowtowing to the Party serve democracy?

I do not think it is our job to save the corrupt party system of politics haunting BC/Canada at the expense of true representation of the people. Stoop to gain power -- even if it means not fulfilling your duty as an elected representative of the people in your riding. But this is exactly what you propose.

Nothing to Offer...

Right now the NDP has absolutely nothing to offer the electorate. There is no indication of policy direction, there is exceedingly poor leadership, approaches to Liberal policies are all over the map with only the occasional word from assigned NDP MLA critics, and this is just not good enough.

The NDP needs to express their options in detail for every sector of government services so the electorate can adjudicate then decide. Carole James and her 'inner' group in my view have done nothing to attract new voters or indeed produce policies that 'stick' in the public mind. Knee-jerk reaction to government actions just does not cut it.

If the NDP continues in this mode, then the NDP will remain in the land of limbo, and perhaps might be taken over by another party who actually produces policy that attracts voters.

The NDP needs a new direction very soon.

G'Night All...

We are all "armchair politicians", you know that? This is how these folks view an aware and enquiring citizenry that dares question them. On the other hand, the logic follows, if you are quiet and obedient little "team players", like the Canucks... Oh, and employees who do as their employers tell them. ...you are good little citizens whom we will let vote for the NDP.

Sit there. Shut up. We'll tell you what's happening when we are good and ready.

Ookayyy. Where do I sign up for this "progressive" party?

Wow! They all, including Frank, got out their NDP Bible here today, to quote us chapter and verse on correct political behaviour and their version of realpolitik. I feel full of the Holy Spirit. Cleansed of my unclean ideological thoughts.

I still can't get over it.

G'night all. I just about put in a full shift here, went for a ride on my horse and made supper (cabbage rolls and mashed potatoes). I think I will check out for tomorrow, just play, maybe drink a little whiskey, certainly do another sunny day ride. (It's hunting season here, and I'm afraid to ride very far into the bush. Somebody might mistake my horse for a moose. And one comes across hunters in the weirdest places. You wonder how the hell they got there.)

But it's been a good day. A lot of things sure revealed themselves to us in the cheap seat pews. 8-D lol

Lordy, Lordy. Ah never.

Tough Crowd

Wow...there’s nothing like politics to rip the heart out of a person. The feeding frenzy on this one is akin to sharks circling in for the kill. They smell blood. Who's right then; Tieleman or Shreck? After reading the previous comments one could assume Carole is finished as party leader. Or is she? Maybe this is her Waterloo. The opportunity she needs to convince us all, that she truly is leadership material. You know what they say “what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.” Me....I’m going with Shreck on this. Having had a few conversations with Carole I know that she is an intelligent concerned person who has the ability to become the leader we all seek. Did I always agree with her style? Not a chance. I wanted a more dominant, charismatic leader. Somebody who could put on a “good show”...that had a lot of style. Someone who could pound the other side into submission. But what does that say about politics? Not much I would think. It’s become more of a popularity contest based on style rather than substance (VanderZalm ring a bell). It’s no wonder we hold our politicians in disdain and the career ones pander to the masses. We encourage it.
Leaders aren’t born and they’re certainly not built in a day. It takes time but its well worth the wait when a good one comes along. Give the lady her due. She took on a job that most didn’t want when there were only two sitting MLA’s. Simpson chose the wrong approach to push for change within the party and now sits outside. Does the punishment fit the crime? I can’t say because I’m not privy to all the pertinent info. But I did listen to him on CKNW, the other night, trying to negotiate his way back in through the media and I wasn’t impressed. Maybe I expect too much of him. I say give Carole her year and we can deal with this issue at the next convention. You know...sort of play by the rules.

sdgreen

I remember when this site started back in 2003 or so and you and I argued over the firing of the HEU members. You supported it, I opposed it. Back then you supported everything Campbell did. Why would I care that a dyed-in-the-wool BC Liberal disagrees with everything about the NDP?

cboo44

So that's 3 if you count Simpson himself. He actually ran for both parties and now is on his way to a third I guess. He must have quite the internal struggle going on.

Bill Tieleman responds to David Schreck

I have a lot of respect for David Schreck - I've worked closely with him and know he is a first rate analyst and researcher.

But we don't agree on some key points.

David says the BC Liberal brand is irreparably damaged due to the party's repeated promise breaking.

He cites among other examples the HEU contract being ipped up and BC Rail being privatized.

Regrettably, those both occurred before the 2005 election, which despite prevarications, the BC Liberals won.

To presume that the next set of dissembling - on the HST and the budget deficit - will surely lead to the BC Liberals' defeat is highly optimistic at best.

Add in that Gordon Campbell is unlikely to be the leader in the next election - and that it's unlikely the next election will be in 2013 - and Houston, we have a problem.

David also argues that the NDP shouldn't lay out its platform too early. I doubt that most Tyee readers or BC voters could remember anything of the last two NDP election platforms in 2005 and 2009.

The "hard work" the party has done on "policy development" - what is that? Other than increasing the minimum wage and a focus on education, what big ideas is the NDP championing?

No one expects a detailed platform with costing - what voters look for are some innovative plans, some popular positions - something beyond just criticism of the government.

Lastly, David ignores some of the key points in my column - the NDP is dangerously losing members and money despite what the party being at what he claims is "an all time high" in the polls.

Why is that? Why is a party allegedly on the verge of winning government unable to even retain a relatively low level of members or pay its own bills?

These issues can be addressed but they can't be ignored. Refusing to acknowledge and resolve problems and instead shoot the messenger is no solution.

I will not renew my party

I will not renew my party membership, donate or vote for the BC NDP until there is a leadership convention and a new leader chosen.

Too bad Jack Layton won't move to BC and run for Premier...

Unelected elites the real problem

Whoever and whatever Carole James may be in private, her public image is what is turning off party supporters. This image is a result of the tight management of the leader by handlers, image makers, pollsters and others who surround every leader. These are the real problem and changing leaders won't make a bit of difference unless the political culture of the party changes.
The unelected, paid political professionals around the leader are the real policy makers, and for quite a few years now it has been obvious these folks don't know whether to make love, fight, hold the light or carry out the dead, from one day to the next.
As a result the public's impression of the leader is that she/he is inconsistent and erratic and trying to go whichever way the wind is blowing that day.
Most activists are ideologically driven to some degree and will only work for a party that seems to have some principles they can support and strategies to work on. Under the last few leaders, it has been hard to detect any principles at all other than gaining power and installing cronies in key and well paid positions. This is what Carole James' handlers are counting on for themselves and why that group will do anything to keep Carole on as leader.
NDP activists have always been told we should support the leader without question, only to see our last three leaders go over to the other side! What does that tell us about the NDP elite?
Personally I am more outraged about Moe Sihota's presidency than Carole's leadership - Moe was a big part of the party's problems both in terms of image and substance - he is an arrogant and egotistic elitist who behaves like the worst kind of old style politician and should just stay out of the way as the party tries to rebuild - but I'm not holding my breath!

Who is running this show?

I am sure that the "handlers" are taking their responsibility seriously.

The problem is that their goal is to get their candidate elected, and to hell with party policy!

Obviously their thinking is that the best way is to emulate liberal policies as much as possible.

What they fail to realize is that if people want that stuff, they already have the liberals to vote for.

One of those handlers is Moe, and I still question why his position suddenly is salaried? $72.000 a year is not chickenfeed, it 4 to 5 times what many of us have to live on!

Pretty good for a position that used to be filled by a volunteer!

Maybe we should offer him even more to abstain from interfering?

I'm with Stewart.

Very articulate.

Why you are wrong David

David, your comments are outrageous to say the least. Firstly, it appears to be an inherent part of your character to accept that a party that is polling in the 40's has every right to form government. That's bull....!! No party with a minority of support among voters deserves to form government. If you can't undersatnd democracy, then how can you ever expect us to respect your opinion. Oh, I forgot, you and Tieleman agree on that one.
Secondly, your suggestion that policies unveiled now will only draw the attention of the Liberals and the media ( in this Province, they are one in the same thing). Personally, I would like to hear an open debate on the merits of progressive income tax versus the merits of regressive sales taxes like the HST and Carbon Tax. I would like to hear a transparent debate about the use of gambling money to finance government programs, while income taxes for the wealthy are cut to the bone. These are not issues that can be absorbed in a four to six week campaign. It is to the advantage of everyone that these issues be debated and debated. Because I believe in fair, progressive taxation and gambling revenue being used purely for charitable purposes that I would welcome Carole James to begin right now to talk about those issues.

As someone who hasn't voted

As someone who hasn't voted NDP since Mike Harcourt's time I would vote NDP if Carole James is stil the leaders. However, if the NDP dumps her and brings in Gregor Arrogant Robertson which is what I think will happen I will not be voting NDP for a long time.
I've had enough white, male arrogance in politics for a life-time. We need more conciliatory leaders who don't lead by the seat of their pants but are more reflective and open. Carole James seems honest and trustworthy unlike most politicians of any stripe.

Whalley Guano

Bravo!

Bill T nailed it

plus, everyone I talk (and I do mean everyone) does not want to vote NDP while Carole Jamess is leader. I outline all her good points to no avail. She's gotta go and Sihota too.

Simply sitting tight as an ambiguous, undefined alternative is a very risky strategy for the NDP in terms of winning the next election.

No she hasn't

I consider my decision not to join a political party to have been a good one, because I don't have to blindly follow any party line. Ms. James has not led the NDP in any real sense. She has tried to stay away from any policy statement that might interfere with taking advantage of Gordon Campbell's self-destruction, that is all. I cannot recall any policy statement by Ms. James, although she must have made some. When the Liberals took away gambling grants from charities, did Ms. James say she would give them back? Has she said exactly what she plans to do about the GST? If she has, I certainly can't recall. Under Ms. James, the NDP is more about what they don't stand for than what they do.

Gangs and Party Lines...

"I consider my decision not to join a political party to have been a good one, because I don't have to blindly follow any party line." Norm S.

It has its advantages for sure, brother. And all you have to do is read here in these threads to appreciate the value of not having to follow a party line that is pure and simple indefensible.

Parties are not unlike gangs, street gangs, or cops for that matter, who are a kind of "gang" also. They have that same hierarchical culture from lesser to head honcho, and that same rather brutal intolerance of dissension/betrayal within, and their own kind of "gang speak". This is mostly why we have to attempt to evolve a different kind of democratic culture going into the future, that moves away from this "contending gangs of New York" culture, and moves instead to simply individuals running as part of a total societal whole. If a way can be crafted out of this rather brutal, archaic and elitist "party system".

But like the rest of it all, it seems like it's going to have to get worse... unfortunately.

But it is especially Stewart MacKenzie I want to compliment for his comment above, in an especially insightful and articulate piece.

"This image is a result of the tight management of the leader by handlers, image makers, pollsters and others who surround every leader. These are the real problem and changing leaders won't make a bit of difference unless the political culture of the party changes."

Carole is NOT the real issue here. She is but the current manifestation of it.. This "gang political culture" to which I earlier refer that has taken over and dominates the NDP and its backrooms. It has led to a reliance on deceit and trickery, the practise of trying to sneak into power, over the open, honest and upfront development of policies and a programme leading to somewhere, preferably out of this morass of current neo-liberal economic practise and neocon politics (that is really a kind of fascism lite. It's what makes the NDP like every other gang faction to the Big Party of Capitalism.) And then on that basis of a programme development, opening up a fight and building the movement that is needed to win and secure it. It's a "mandate" for real and defined change, in the economy and political structure that is needed from "the people". Not a win by default because the "other gang" has just fucked up too much and grossly, which gives you no clear mandate for anything, but to go in and behave like every other political gang that is really just a caretaker government for the "real" ruling class.

No clear programme for change, no mandate, equals just more of the same old, same old serving the ruling class... in the NDP case, "lite" presumably. And that ain't for sure.

It's all a consequence of still looking back, and not forward. It's being caught in a time loop, that keeps going back to the past, and can never get forward beyond a particular sticking point.

Stewart Mackenzie

You said on another thread which is now closed that the NDP can't win without you and those who feel the same was as you. You'll sit at home.

All well and good but the other way of looking at it is you can't win without me and those who feel the same way as I do.

At some point you have to decide whether cutting off your nose to spite your face is a sound strategy.

the difference

If the NDP does not allow members to participate meaningfully in policy development then it is no place for an activist.
I came to the NDP as a long time environmental activist disenchanted with the the so called green leadership, and found the party was far more democratic than the environmental movement had become.
When Harcourt was leader there was a real opportunity to participate. Many of us appreciated the way Mike facilitated discussions which led to such achievements as our 1992 Forest Policy.
This resulted from two years of meetings of the Environment Committee (SCOE) which was created as a forum for labour and the Green Caucus and others to develop common positions.
After Clark made Sihota Environment minister, SCOE was treated with little respect. Policies were made through private back room meetings with "big players" in labour and "Big Green" groups.
It was not worth the effort of traveling 900 miles return, often through rotten weather, to hear Moe regurgitate his latest press conference, telling us nothing we hadn't already heard on the radio!

I was in no position to challenge the powers that be, and any dissent was seen (as it is now) as disloyalty, so my voice was effectively silenced by the elitists.

When many of the Green Caucus left the party, it left the rest of us with fewer allies, and no way to resist the bullies. Eventually I drifted away, as the reasons for being active were removed by the NDP elite.
My story has been repeated hundreds of times around the province as activists have lost hope the NDP will address our concerns. We won't participate in a process which offers us no reason to get involved. It does us no good to help a bunch of political hacks get their pork and plums if they don't address the issues!
The army of activists who worked to elect the NDP in the 90s didn't sign on to be footsoldiers in a campaign with no purpose other than power for the party elite. Most of us have long realized these people have no use for us other than serving their interests.
We have nothing to lose by sitting it out as long as we have nothing to gain by participating, and that is the critical difference. If the NDP elite hope to get where they want to, they need us to work for the party - or they can kiss all those high paying jobs and PR contracts goodbye! If they don't want our input and ideas then they aren't going to get our loyalty nor labour and will stay in opposition till they figure that out.
In my view (which at 58 tends to be a long one) the interests of BC are better served by reforming the NDP than creating other parties - the Greens have already begun to emulate some of the worst characteristics of the old parties!
By supporting the party under the present leadership we can only encourage the elitists in their obsession with power at any cost and with little direction!

NINE percent Gordo

With Gordo at 9 percent popularity, I suppose anyone leading the NDP is assured a win, but would it not be nice if we got to see some changes from that new government?

What I see from James is an attitude of lets not upset the status quoe, just carry on as usual and try to drop a few more crumbs to the poor.

Gordo had no scruples favouring his supporters when he got elected, so why should we show restraints?

If they don't want our input...

"Most of us have long realized these people have no use for us other than serving their interests.
We have nothing to lose by sitting it out as long as we have nothing to gain by participating," Stewart MacKenzie

Which is the spear upon which the NDP is currently impaling itself. The faithful have stopped believing in the article of faith that says, "It's all just about getting the party elites elected, on whatever thin gruel basis we can get into there. They know. Let them run it."

Which is what I have been saying here for a long time. Their credibility has run out.

But you also say another very important thing, which likewise I have been plumping for a similarly long time: Either something significant has to change within the Party and its culture of elitism and crass opportunism, that invites programmatic input and takes a more sweeping and yes, radical approach to how you seriously change current society beyond window dressing and empty words... The preferable course to me as well, over starting over again. ...or another political development does have to occur on the Left, or whatever the Hell you want to call it. Traditional "social democracy" as it manifested itself in the Labour Party in Britain and many other places in the world, as well as the NDP here, simply does not cut it in these times any longer. Period.

The clock is winding down and ticking for them. (IF what Vaughn Palmer writes in the Globe and Mail this weekend has any truth to its material at all, about all that is currently propping up the NDP shell that is left is, the trade union movement. And lord knows its seen better days as well and is showing threadbare wear at the seams itself, for similar reasons.

If it's real power you want, that seriously means something and gives the real opportunity to transform society, then we on the Left and "progressives" need to reconnect again with that "old time tradition/religion" of MOVEMENT building. There needs to be the programme development and political vision that gives serious raison d'etre, and the capacity to inspire and motivate masses of people, and to put them in motion. For there is the real power with the potential to out muscle ruling class greed, avarice and bully capacity.

Without that, you are just warming legislative seats like the current crop of NDP MLA's are doing, or doing caretaker duty in governance.

This will be done, again to me as well, preferably by the NDP grabbing hold of itself short of the Pit of Oblivion and transforming itself first. Or failing that, by a growing body of people coming to understand that their time has passed, and that we must hunker down and build another, and the right kind of political force... the kind the times and the needs of the people and the planet are calling for.

I'm not wasting anymore time or votes on them frankly, but I actually am pulling for the NDP still, believe it or not. Though I am also already casting my eyes elsewhere too.

Stewart Mackenzie

If you have nothing to lose by sitting out because you think the province is just as well run by the Liberals then you should join the Liberals and see if they're more open than the NDP to giving you what you want.

I really don't think what you want is compatible with what the NDP wants. You have your own agenda which has little or nothing to do with the NDP. What you want could be served by any party.

Frank

Resorting to personal attacks like the hatchet job the elitists are trying to do on Bob Simpson, and as you are doing now, is childish and unproductive.

It is not about me or what I want, it is about all the potential NDP activists who will not work to serve the interests of an arrogant elite who pretend to have our issues on their agenda while trying to get elected, then ignore the issues once elected.

I actually have gained more by sitting out, because I invest the time into my home and family, both of which suffered neglect when I was spending hundreds of hours working free for the NDP.

I don't think you have a blue clue what I want or what my agenda may be as you are just looking for points to pick on rather than understanding what I am saying. Lecturing activists about how much the party can do for us will not bring us back. Showing us the door if we won't behave like obedient children willing to be seen but not heard, will weaken the party even more.
If my issues aren't relevant to the NDP then the leadership are lying through their teeth when they tell us why we must support them. In my years in the party noone ever suggested these issues were not important. They pretended deep concern but their actions in office contradicted their words.
The NDP government under Glen Clark was so pro industry and so abusive towards any dissenters that most of us really didn't see how the Libs could be much worse. The way Carole James and Moe Sihota are running the party, I don't see any more openness than under Clark. They are sucking up to business in a way which certainly was never directed by the party membership, as if they were elected to rule rather than represent. That is Harperism, not social democracy!

Stewart

There is no personal attack in my post so try and drop the martyr complex.

The NDP isn't what you want, fine. The Liberals aren't what I want. I don't spend my time telling Liberals I want to join the party but they have to change first.

As for the NDP saying one thing and then doing another, that's not exactly the most earth-shattering of statements. Have you ever read the Liberal Red Book? Have you noticed we still have free trade and the GST? You feel the NDP lied to you, fine, you should move on.

And if you gain a lot by not spending 10 minutes to vote, then great.

You said "We have nothing to lose by sitting it out"

Fact is you said yourself you're not interested in NDP accomplishments or their core values and that's why you don't vote for them. You want them to first adopt a platform that you like. Well, it sounds like the NDP isn't your cup of tea and you would be better off with another party. I can see that clearly, why can't you?

You say the Liberals are no worse, fine, they need members too. Just ask seth who says no one is attending Liberal riding meetings leaving the party ripe for takeover. Opportunity is knocking, so don't keep wasting your time complaining the NDP isn't what you want.

Changing leaders

I agree with Dave Schreck and Abraham Lincoln who about the time of his re-nomination in 1964 told a delegation: "I have not permitted myself, gentlemen, to conclude that I am the best man in the country; but I am reminded, in this connection, of a story of an old Dutch farmer who remarked to a companion once that 'it was not best to swap horses while crossing streams'."
With Carole we have a fairly reliable work horse. Now is not the time to swap. There would be a big political cost. Which reminds me of another Lincoln quote:
"I can make more generals, but horses cost money."

Frank:

If you are going to get personal: "Martyr complex"??; at least have the integrity to admit it .
I must be irritating you a lot as you are misrepresenting what I have said.

"you said yourself you're not interested in NDP accomplishments or their core values and that's why you don't vote for them".

I never said I don't vote for them, which would be an lie - but I won't give up hundreds of hours of productive time to get them elected - other than Bob Simpson, who has had my support both times he ran and certainly has it today.

"Ten minutes to vote" hardly describes the time and effort I and many others put in in the past because we did in fact believe in NDP core values as expressed by party policies and candidates. I have never stopped believing in the principles which brought me to the party; the party elite have shifted the direction of the NDP to "whichever way the wind is blowing" and in doing so have lost our support. We no longer believe those who run the party have any other interest but their own careers. If you can discern any core values in the present leadership I would like to see them in print as I haven't detected anything but selfish personal political ambition.

"You want them to first adopt a platform that you like"
Partly true - I would like to see them adopt a platform. Then we could decide if we liked it or not rather than being expected to take them on trust - been there, done that!