Which is the hoax? Morton's

Which is the hoax? Morton's list of lawbreakings, or our "wealth creating foreign investors", who bring nothing to the country, except destruction and legalized theft ?

The first demand of any democracy must be the elimination of government secrecies. Secret government deals are typical fascist, dictatorial habits and traditions, but people go along with them, because ignorance is bliss. Until the whole corrupt system collapses around their stupid necks and then they cry: "What happened?"

Ed Deak.

Illahie thou doth protest too much

"Morton's claims just keep getting wilder and wilder."

Shakespeare would agree. Verbal irony was never so dramatic. Wilder and wilder indeed. Let's hope ...

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

She is asking for Freedom of information

How exactly is that an Hoax?
I claim to have seen Sproat Sockeye being carried up the dock in Pt. Alberni last Friday - sport fishermen limiting out while commercial boats get a six hour opening about once a week.
I claim to have been shocked at the number of net farms throughout the Broughton Group while boating there a few years ago.
I claim to have seen drastic decline in fin fish stocks in the Salish Sea over 35 years.
I do not claim to know what is responsible for this stuff but I would hope that any actual information regarding these "farms" was made available.

This is looking more and more

Like the record of the provincial and federal governments in the demise of the Eastern Cod on the Grand Banks.

These people just don't care - they, and their apologists, know the price of everything and the 'value' of nothing.

IHN

IHN is a naturally occurring virus which is present in most if not all Sockeye stocks.

IHN is the reason why Sockeye enhancement efforts are limited to spawning channels and lake fertilization.

The government hardly hides information about IHN.

http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/ahc/fish_health/IHNV.htm

Morton is a master at her craft

Unfortunately it is not a very noble craft.

When she is at the top of her game she makes claims that are very difficult to disprove. Sea Lice as an example. It took DFO a number of years and millions of dollars of taxpayer money to disprove that myth.

She slipped up a bit recently with her claims of drug resistant Sea Lice, that claim could be easily tested and was disproved as a hoax in just a few days.

Now we have IHN and Fish Farm Secrecy. That is a very good claim. It is very hard to disprove. If there was secrecy, who could tell because it is a secret.

Hmmmm

Well I guess we all know who Illahie works for now, don't we. I'm just surprised he was able to get the internet hooked up to his cave where he has been living for the past 20+ years. If you go down to the ocean it is a good idea to open your eyes and look around. And if you are not sure what you are seeing then take an old timer with you, he can explain to you that something is going on in our oceans and we had better listen to some of the learned advice coming our way. When will common sense prevail, when will politicians do the right thing, how far do we have to push our luck before the tipping point? Fish farms may not be the only problem with our wild fish stocks but they are a great place to start!

OK Illahie, how are you

OK Illahie, how are you involved in this ? Working for the fishfarms, investor, government employee, or BCLib voter ?

Personally, I don't eat fish, because I don't like the taste and stink of them, and my wife is highly allergic to fish, so it makes no difference to us if all the fish in the seas die.

But it is our long experience, that when economies, which means governments, are run by special interest sectors, as they are now all over Canada and the world, the corruption and lies become out of control, so, I would always believe Morton before I believe any PR hack for "investors".

Especially when they show government "secrecies" and open lawbreakings, kept from the public.

When you have nothing to hide, you don't have to be secretive.

Ed Deak.

DFO disproved nothing

they are digging a hole they can't get out of.

http://sustainablecoast.ca/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=231:press-release-a-visit-to-norway-and-the-sea-lice-follies-of-bc&Itemid=114

"Despite the simplicity of the mechanism, and the many peer-review studies that support
it, there is confusion in Canada because of a small group of scientists in Canada’s
Department of Fisheries and Oceans (DFO). Those scientists have an explicit duty to
support government policy, and the current Minister of Fisheries and Oceans favors
salmon farming. This is not a recipe for good science. Judging from their papers, this
group lacks basic training in the population dynamics of host-parasite systems, and their
intention is to mislead their readers. In plain English, their papers appear to have been
written mainly for propaganda purposes. In Norway, by contrast, government scientists
now accept that sea lice from salmon farms are responsible for declines of wild salmon
and sea trout.

Dr. Larry Dill, a world-renowned Canadian ecologist, has described DFO’s Minister and senior bureaucrats thus: “They are either extremely ignorant, misinformed, or they are lying to us.” Dr. Daniel Pauly, easily the world’s most eminent fisheries scientist, agrees with Dr. Dill."

@Ed

I, and others, have already posted the 'connections' which tie a particular 'consultant' to certain 'comments' here at Tyee.

The 'person' in question denies the connections and, since these posts are anonymous, there's little in the way of proof that I can provide.

However, you can look at the following:

http://twitter.com/bc_iconoclast

And, please note the 'blogs' listed on this site:

http://www.blogger.com/profile/15951619465188564252

Then, as I know you can, draw your own conclusions,

Do you suppose

"Cohen Commission hearings delayed over document hold up" and
"The evidentiary hearings for a federal inquiry into declining Fraser River sockeye salmon stocks have been delayed for at least one month because the federal government has yet to disclose key documents to the commission council."

include the disease information (which would then become public) Ms. Morton is talking about?

Hmmmmmmm!

The hearings for the Cohen Commission were originally slated to start September 7, but a spokesperson for the inquiry said the date has been pushed back to October 25.

"We need to review tens of thousands of documents, and the federal government is disclosing those to us, but we don't have all the documents yet," said Carla Shore, director of communications for the inquiry.

That post messed up meant to credit By Robyn Smith

That is where the quotes are from.

Why isn't our media all over this?

Where's our media on this...a few minutes on the Bill Good show every couple of months...one or two phone calls from the public at large get through and that's it...that's all we get...it's a joke...it's like CKNW is afraid to confront both governments feds/prov...call them out on their deceit and delays...Rafe use to speak up...for what is right...for the salmon...for the people of this province...native or otherwise...we are allowing private interests (Norwegian)to destroy our natural resource...read National Geografic a few months back and see what happened to wild stock in South America...we'll lose our Sockeye...I guess that's ok with Gordo...another sad day in B.C.

Could there be a pattern here?

Let's see:
minimal media attention
various attorneys requiring delays for their trials
No access to "pertinent" records
Looks to me like the "think Tank" monkeys are earning their keep

There was something on the

There was something on the news this evening about the feds changing some rules, only applicable to BC and about fish farms. I didn't hear the whole article but I'm pretty sure others must have and will enlighten us.

DPL

Is this it?
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/dfo-announces-new-rules-for-aquaculture-in-bc/article1637257/

The criminals we elect

To think we elect and pay each one of these politicians to protect and serve our interests only to see them conspire to purposefully destroy a national treasure is truly beyond belief. Sadly it is just one more example of the corruption which has overtaken our governance at every level. Jail is too good for life this low!

Where's our media on this...

Pretty sure Ms. Morton has "cried wolf" so many times, not too many people are "biting" any more.

Where's the Revolution?

Why anyone is surprised about this or that the mainstream media isn't on it is beyond me.

I see the boiling frog syndrome where we have creeping fascism and people are too enamoured with weapons of mass distraction (entertainment, shopping, sports) to even recognize it or bother to do anything about it.

The people are the only ones who can do anything about this because government and media have already been taken over.

Weapons of Mass Distraction

Good one, because that is an apt discription of how the 'wool' is pulled over the distracted sheeple!

point us to the "sheeple"...

As I have said before, I guess eveyone - except those of us posting here - are sheeple? I mean, just point out the sheeple and we can set about re-educating them...so simple, yes?

These same sheeple, or the ignorant voter, or however you might choose to characterize 'them'...are actually, us. News Flash! We share the province and the planet.The revolution lies within us...after all, is not the pen mightier than the sword? (In a paraphrasing that seems rather quaint.) I wonder how many letters (it is said that letters are taken more seriously than emails,by the way) it would take to the appropriate politicians to stir up some backlash...

In any event, I can't help but wonder if the average sheeple is tired of reading these comments.If our only contribution was to an intelligent and thoughtful public discussion, that could be a profound and might force indeed.

A report that Morton does not want you to read

http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/ahc/fish_health/IHNV_report_2003.pdf

Fiat Lux

"Working for the fishfarms, investor, government employee, or BCLib voter ?"

None of the above. I am not a fan of Fish Farms, nor am I opposed to them.

I just think that it is important that people should be told the truth.

Is it time for the Enviromental Movement to cut Morton loose?

When Morton's Sea Lice allegations were disproven, Morton faced a dilema.

Federal and Provincial Fisheries managers were aware that Morton's claims were unfounded.

Morton was aware that she had lost credibility with Fisheries.

She then had a decision to make. She could do the honourable thing and withdraw her campaign against Fish Farms.

Instead she chose to make new allegations, first with drug resistance, and now with IHN and Secrecy.

We actually have some serious issues with our wild stock fisheries.

Is the Environmental Movement going to do the honourable thing and cut Morton loose?

Slam, dunk exposé

Thanks for this summary of a very tangled web, also for the damning graph.

Treachery is the BC Liberals' strong suit, treason comes to mind.

Let's get it straight

Federal and Provincial Fisheries people don't manage fish they manage money.

"Sea-cage farming of carnivorous finfish has been an environmental and social disaster
wherever it has been allowed to scale up. Production of each pound of farm fish
consumes 4–5 pounds of pelagic forage fish that are an important dietary item in poor
countries. Sea-cages function as unintended pathogen culture facilities that amplify
diseases from wild fish, causing infection rates in wild fish to increase and wild fish to
decline. The sea-cage industry employs many disease specialists with PhD’s, but
wherever it proliferates, commercial fisheries, subsistence fisheries and sport fisheries are
reduced or destroyed, causing loss of social license and widespread public protest. The
loss of subsistence fisheries is especially hard on aboriginal peoples."

"Myth: “Scientists favor aquaculture.”
Fact: Sea-cage aquaculture is a full-employment program for fish pathologists,
bacteriologists, virologists and so forth. Financial ties to the aquaculture industry promote
a kind of techno-arrogance (sensu Meffe 1992) and wishful thinking. The only scientists
who seem to be able to think clearly about sea-cage aquaculture are epidemiologists,
ecologists with training in the population dynamics of parasites, and (in my experience)
physicists and mathematicians."

Neil Frazer May 10 2010

So KWD is not a fan of Fish Farms

That is OK with me.

He/she does not say how he feels about honesty, integrity and ethics. Does the end justify the means?

Is it OK for a corporation to use the same tactics against a competitor if it helps them be more competitive and gain market share?

Is it OK for a politician to do the same if it helps get them elected?

Heard it before

A few years ago Morton predicted the pink salmon species would be extinct by 2010.

Not even close.

http://www.thefishsite.com/fishnews/11781/broughton-pink-salmon-return-in-large-numbers

Full disclosure. I have no personal nor monetary interest in the fish farming industry.

bait and switch

Honesty and integrity are the products of distortional thinking that wants to believe judgment is reality.

Surely you're not claiming ethics underlie corporate (or political) plans to gain market share?

Everyone agrees, money lacks conscience.

As for those sockeyes

Looks like they haven't read the script either, just like the pinks...

http://www.theprovince.com/Signs+point+healthy+return+sockeye/3274557/story.html

Bird Flu Outbreak Taken More Seriously

I honestly have no idea if Alexandra Morton is full of crap or not - but it does seem odd to me (if she is right) that we don't treat these fish farms like we do our chicken/turkey farms.
A single instance of Bird Flu forces the complete quarantine of the infected farm and destruction of ALL the birds (infected or not). Even bird farms in the vicinity can be quarantined and birds destroyed if inspectors believe the risk of the disease spreading is too high ( http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN24329170 ). The outbreak in 2004 and 2009 are recent examples.
The same is true of Mad Cow Disease, when a single instance shut down virtually the entire beef industry in Alberta not so long ago.
So why wouldn't the appropriate federal and provincial agencies have the same inspection and regulation power over fish farms?
I don't know if the level of secrecy alleged is actually true, but it certainly makes sense that fish farms get treated exactly the same as any other farming endeavour in our country and province. They should be forced to report any disease outbreaks, and then have the appropriate health & safety measures invoked immediately.
If these fish farms are actually operating outside the laws other farms must follow, then steps should be taken immediately to bring them back into the fold.
Obviously no farmer wants his/her 'herd' destroyed so there is little incentive to report diseases unless the penalties through enforcement outweigh the costs. Since both sides of the fish farm argument deny each other's claims, one can only hope that the government at all levels will finally step into to determine the actual facts. History has sadly shown that allowing any group to operate outside of the common laws and use only their self-interest to guide them inevitably leads to community failure (eg. US banking, BP oil, buffalo hunters, etc). Why we would allow fish farms some special exemption(s) makes no sense at all - even responsible fish farmers can hardly argue that they should be treated differently than other farmers. If everything is above board, and there is nothing to hide, then everyone should feel good about transparency.

Why Morton's anti Fish Farm campaign may be totally misguided.

Morton may not like any fish farms, but she seems to especially dislike Atlantic Salmon fish farms.

Many people worry about the introduction of alien exotics into our province. That is understandable.

But what if Atlantic Salmon used to live here, and they died out when Pacific Salmon evolved.

If that were true then Atlantic Salmon are not exotic or invasive.

Morton would perhaps be suprised to know that Salmo evolved right here in the Pacific. Right here in British Columbia infact.

I will try to find a comment on this that I wrote a while back, and post it here.
Welcome back Salmo salar (Atlantic Salmon)

A comment from "Morton's walk to Victoria now in fifth day"

Fossils of the oldest known Salmonid, Eosalmo driftwoodensis was found in Smithers BC , it dates back about 52 million years ago. It appears that salmon probably evolved right here in British Columbia, although Eosalmo driftwoodensis fossils have also been found in Washington State.

The Atlantic Salmon, Salmo salar is thought to have evolved about 20 million years ago, where it colonized both the Pacific and Atlantic oceans. At that time Panama had not yet formed, and fish could swim freely between the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans.

In the evolutionary record there were some examples which did not make it into todays production line. Take the Saber-Toothed Salmon Smilodonichthys rastrosus as an example. It was developed 10-15 million years ago. At 10 feet long and weighing up to 500 pounds, it would have been quite sporting when caught with a fly rod.

About 3 million years ago, while the Pacific Tectonic Plate was squishing up against the North American Plate, a ridge that today we call Panama was formed. Panama sealed off the waters between the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans.

This was probably a good thing for old Salmo salar. It has not changed much in the last 20 million years. It is still the Model T Ford of the salmon business.

In the Pacific though, things were changing. Oncorhynchus was starting to evolve from Salmo stock. There were 4 basic production lines. First off was most likely Oncorhynchus masou, the Japanese Cherry Salmon, and its other Asian variants. Next up would be the branch which led to Sockeye salmon, and its later variants, the Pink and Chum salmon. Coho and Chinook salmon were a third branch. and Rainbow and Cutthroat trout the fourth.

Oncorhynchus are fierce competitors, and they drove old Salmo salar to extinction in the Pacific. Rainbow and Cutthroat own the freshwater space, and they can also do the ocean thing as well. They are found from the ocean right up to high altitude mountain lakes. Like the Atlantic salmon, they can spawn multiple times.

Sockeye of course, own the lakes, where they spend a couple of years before heading to the ocean to get their fill of krill.

Pink and Chum salmon own the lower, slower reaches of rivers, Chinook are the kings of the large and fast water. Coho can worm their way up to the smallest trickle of water. They are often found spawning in ditches alongside of logging roads.

Atlantic salmon simply cannot compete in the presence of Pacific salmon. DFO has been trying to introduce (reintroduce) Atlantic salmon into British Columbia since 1905. In spite of introducing hundreds of thousands of fry and fingerlings over many years, they have been totally unsuccessful at establishing even the smallest population. When Coho and Chinook were introduced into the great lakes (a stupid thing to do), they set upon trouncing on the beleaguered Atlantic Salmon population.

Longer perspective always helpful

Thanks Illahie. It's always helpful to get a longer perspective on current problems - nothing like looking back 20-52 million years. People tend to fixate on the moment, which in the grand scheme of things isn't really even a tiny blip in the planet's history. I suspect earth will survive our idiocy just fine - the numerous species that have come and gone during the five major mass extinctions are proof that life is ever changing - and often out of anyone's control. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't act responsibly, but a day may come again when our species is wiped out and the process of evolution starts again with the leftover microbes.

yes, perspective is helpful

It may surprise folks to learn that slavery co-evolved right here in BC. But it died out when society decided it was time to choose a more enlightened path.

Because it was once a common occurance, does that mean we should once again entertain slavery or, at this point in our evolutionary history, that we should even enter a dialogue about it’s value?

We long ago abandoned the isolated, sheltered life in forest canopy, but apparently walking upright and becoming acquainted with the rest of the world is still a problem.

Just More Anti-Salmon Farm Propaganda

It seems that the only "research" coming out that tries to link increased infestations of sea lice from fish farms to wild salmon is from Ms. Morton and her associates. That alone raises a strong suspicion that her campaign is based in environmental ideology and politics, and not science. And of course, the Alexandra Morton Fan Club is there every step of the way, trying to discredit her critics when they can't discredit their message.

It's time for Ms. Morton to come clean and admit that she is just another hard core deep ecologist who doesn't like commercial farming actitvities in what she considers to be natural ecosystems.