Opinion

You Go Patti!

Vancouver School Board chair's tart-tongued defence fits fresh trend: politicians sticking up for the public interest.

By Shannon Rupp, 16 Jun 2010, TheTyee.ca

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VSB chair Patti Bacchus: 'Yeah, I guess this is politics'.

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Forget soccer, give me political sparring

When it comes to spectator sports, you can have your Stanley Cup and your World Cup. For sheer entertainment value give me a political dust-up of the sort happening between Education Minister Margaret MacDiarmid and Vancouver school board chair Patti Bacchus.

With functional illiteracy rates in this country around 40 per cent, I've been amazed to see successive governments scoring short-term political points with education cuts while doing long-term damage to the B.C. economy. Yeah: so much for the Liberal claim that it's the party of business.

The hypocrisy is palpable, which is probably one of the reasons the fight between Bacchus and MacDiarmid has taken a personal turn. MacDiarmid started it when she accused Bacchus of politicking, while implying the school board was incompetent at best and possibly corrupt. Ironic coming from a minister forced to defend a government that is fast losing its authority as evidence of its own corruption and incompetence mounts.

That irony wasn't lost on Bacchus, who fired back that, having done her undergrad degree in political science, she recalls a prof defining politics as the struggle over the distribution of scarce resources. "So, yeah, I guess this is politics," the increasingly sarcastic Bacchus told reporters at a news conference.

It's fun to watch them sparring like a couple of mismatched boxers. While the impolitic school board chair is the more fleet-footed of the two, the plodding education minister carries weight and power -- including a hefty budget (of public money) for communications consultants.

No doubt they're the ones who advised sending in the comptroller-general -- MacDiarmid's minion -- to claim that school board trustees mismanaged their budget.

Getting to be a pattern

I relished comptroller-general Cheryl Wenezenki-Yolland's solutions to the budget shortfall, including wringing "concessions from unions." In one phrase, she managed to combine the Campbell government's contempt for working people, like teachers, with an endorsement for a kind of institutionalized theft. A government that has been using legitimately-acquired funds to benefit its cronies is now demanding that specific members of the public pony up a few more bucks to deliver a service that that benefits us all?

I'm not sure what is more breathtaking in that suggestion: the arrogance, or the sheer unmitigated gall.

It's only fair to admit that I get a particular kick out of this spectacle because Bacchus and I were students together in some antediluvian era and I'm amused to see she's as tart-tongued as ever. But I also suspect MacDiarmid's personal attacks on Bacchus have to do with the Liberal party wanting to slay a formidable adversary at the municipal level, rather than face her across the legislature

This is about more than education funding. Bachhus's angry, snide, exasperated voice is not just the sound of one seriously pissed-off electorate. She is another in a growing roster of politicians who are standing up and speaking for the public interest, in disregard of their own careers.

You go Spencer!

I first spotted the trend last year when the NDP's Spencer Chandra Herbert (Vancouver-West End) challenged the Campbell government on its fiscally irresponsible cuts to the arts. That put him at odds with his own party, which has never had anything but contempt for cultural industries.

When it comes to the arts, politicians tend to be of one Philistine mind, albeit for different reasons. The earnest and dull-witted lefties think art is a luxury for the so-called elite. Meanwhile, the right-wing crazies dismiss it because it doesn't generate big, corporate-sized profits. It doesn't employ their friends, which means it can't give them fat-salaried jobs after they leave office. As a result, the sector which employs about half a million people nationally is a political orphan. With no voice in government, it gets more bashing than a piñata.

But as Herbert pointed out, the arts deliver big profits by small-business standards -- 38 cents on the dollar invested in B.C. (And more nationally, and in provinces like Quebec and Ontario, where the investment is greater.)

Arts or lumber?

I watched in disgust as that Liberal-party-of-business eviscerated a profitable industry to buy the illusion of being tough on "handouts" -- well, at least handouts that don't benefit their pals directly. Most people don't realize that all other industries, including forestry and energy, receive heavy government subsidies. But they come in the form of tax breaks and complicated formulas for things like stumpage fees. That's what the never-ending battle over softwood lumber trade with the U.S. is about: the U.S. argues that B.C. timber is subsidized so heavily via the public purse that it amounts to an unfair advantage in the marketplace.

But the beneficiaries of this kind of grant are "a handful of B.C. lumber producers," as the U.S. Coalition for Fair Lumber Imports points out. Arts grants, by contrast, are an investment that benefits the economy and the public by making theatre tickets affordable for everyone.

You go Blair!

Last week another politician, Blair Lekstrom (Peace River South), gave me the hat trick every journo needs to prove there's a trend. He opted to represent his constituents in the Peace River country and oppose the HST rather than play toady to the Liberals. His riding includes many small-business people, like retailers, who will lose their customers to nearby Alberta when the government rams through the ill-considered HST.

Apparently Lekstrom noticed that when Campbell et al became public servants they decided to define "public" as themselves and their buddies. Who knew that when they claimed to be the party of business, they meant their personal business? Or possibly monkey business? They certainly didn't mean the Peace River's business.

At this point, it's impossible even for Liberals to ignore how the Campbell government's self-serving, short-term thinking damages our economy again and again.

As individuals, the politicians standing up for the public interest are all likely to take it on the chin. They're not good little party drones, which means they won't have the party apparatus to promote them into high-profile jobs. Their careers as politicians will be stalled. Or ended.

But they are remarkably good citizens, reminding us of how government by the people, for the people is supposed to work. If we're smart we'll re-elect each and every one of them.

Back up the fighters

In the case of Bacchus and VSB, the public may have to stand up for its representatives sooner rather than later. The smart money is on MacDiarmid firing the elected board and robbing the scrappy chair of her platform. The embattled Liberals don't need to be fighting the public on two fronts, and as governments lose their authority, they usually resort to abusing their power.

Although, given Bacchus's style, I'd ask MacDiarmid if she really wants to knock a captain and her brigade out of theatre and have them come back as guerrillas?

Meanwhile, I've fired up the popcorn maker. This is way more fun than soccer. [Tyee]

Shannon Rupp is a Tyee contributing editor. Find her previous columns here.

80 Comments:

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  • rantnic

    1 year ago

    BEAT THE BULLY

    The best way to beat bullies like MacDiarmid is to gang up on them, give a good dose of their own medicine and chase them away. Bacchus is off to a very good start. Lets hope she can maintain and score in an even bigger arena. Campbells riding, on recall, would be an excellent place for Bacchus to start. After all this is an area where she already enjoys a good amount of notoriety.

  • off-the-radar

    1 year ago

    Libs fighting on three fronts

    Patti Bacchus is so inspirational, I actually watched her entire half-hour June 4 press conference (posted on CBC).

    What with HST and the Basi-Virk trial, I think the Liberals are looking for a wedge issue to regain political popularity. Bashing the VSB and the BCTF through a hatchet job masquerading as an "independent" report may be their best shot.

    Thank goodness British Columbians have:
    * a well-informed public (for example, see citizens' thoughtful comments sharply criticizing Gary Mason's latest anti-VSB article at the Globe and Mail).
    * an energized electorate;
    * recall, recall, recall.

    No doubt about it, this is a fundamental fight about democracy.

    Do we want even more control in the Premier's office or do we want school boards with elected local representatives who support public education?

  • Jeffrey J.

    1 year ago

    You Go Shannon

    Refreshing and funny, Ms. Rupp is always guaranteed to enliven ones day!

    I hope others will step forward to provide support for people like Patti Bacchus because she will need it. This government, like all of our neoconservative, anti-democratic regimes in Canada today, do not tolerate criticism.

    I would encourage everyone who admires Ms. Bacchus (and anyone else standing up to these LIberal creeps) to write or email her with our unconditional admiration and support.

    Great coverage!

  • Barryeng

    1 year ago

    MacDermiad a sacrifice?

    It seems that every time Dr. MacDiarmid opens her mouth, she put her foot further in. I've watch her answering questions in the House, and it is HER credibility, not that of Patti Bachus that consistently comes into question.

    The better question now though, is wether or not MacDiarmid is seriously questioning the competence of the Vancouver School Board, or just providing another front to take some of the preassure off Campbell and Hanson. Given Campbell's known penchant for controlling everything that goes on, I think that this is a case where a weak minister is being hrown to the wolves, in order to give him some breathing time.

    Is MacDermaid on the list of MLAs to be recalled?

  • Van Isle

    1 year ago

    This whole squabble with the

    This whole squabble with the VSB is s set up so the Liberals can fire all the School Boards and create there own regional boards with hired 'yes-people' to do the Governments dirty work. They did it with Transit and the Health Boards, why not the School Boards too?

  • jim1966

    1 year ago

    Hats Off To This Person

    I admire Patty, she's got guts, she honestly cares about the system that she works for, our kids. I think it would be interesting to see her in the legislature debating with Campbell and Co. I also watched the CBC interview and Patty looked as though she was done talking and wanted a piece of "Maggie" right then and there. This regretfully is yet another symptom of an arrogant, uncaring and a dishonest government, when they are voted out or removed from office is when the people of BC will be able to breathe a little easier.

  • Name

    1 year ago

    Well-behaved women rarely make history

    Here's to Shannon & Patti! You go, girls!

    And with apologies for the sexist quote, because I guess that applies equally to the men!

    So here's to Spencer & Blair too!

    And here's hoping the rest of the flock of lemmings in the Victoria Legislature find the guts to stand up and start thinking for themselves!

  • Barryeng

    1 year ago

    Remember When?

    Do any of you remember the old social Credit slogan during one NDP era, " Will the last person out of BC please turn out the lights"?

    Funny, but I recall schools being built during that time, not masss unemployment, job pools, and schools being shut because of declining enrolement. People keep bringing up the Fast Ferry Fiasco, but Canadian Latitude is right, the ferries provided jobs to British Columbia not Germany.

    Campbell has been bragging about tens of thousands of new jobs since 2001, but the British Columbia economy is in the tank and getting worse. This is provable by the simple fact that the school enrolment is down throughout the Province.

    It seems that the Socreds were right, it just took a lot longer than they thought, and one of their own to do it.

  • deeby

    1 year ago

    Van Isle hits the nail on the head....

    ...this is a preliminary salvo in an ideological fight, taken at the easiest target: the board with the largest budget, the most intractable social problems, and the least amount of ideological alignment with the govt.

    First they'll fire the board, electorate be damned, then they'll announce the inevitable restructuring across the province.

    Can't wait to have corporate CEOs calling the shots on my daughter's school funding....

  • chevy

    1 year ago

    Fight for public services

    This is one of those rare occurrences where a stand needs to be made. Stripping funding away from public education when at a time it is needed the most is something totally unfathomable. This is a key time when gangs and drug dealers portray themselves as successful and regular people as suckers. School programs, like the music program shown in the news which is danger of being cut, give students identities. They give young people pride and in a higher sense, give them a sense of belonging to Canada. Apart from the teachers dispute with the government over proper funding, we are seeing programs out of the realm of actual teaching and in LIFE EXPERIENCES. You can't teach kids everything, they need to experience, touch, feel play. I think Ms. Bacchus needs to keep this fight up. I see sports programs being cut. You can work in groups in school, how about learning the value of working within and as a part of a team. What about swimming lessons? How many children who's parents cannot afford swimming lessons? We are surrounded by water!!! How does that work for kids who on their own leisure and are around a beach and can't swim.... What about arts programs. The stories of kids that were shy or too afraid to speak up do activities like drama and gain personal confidence!!! I can post so much more and I see what Ms. Bacchus is doing and I realize that this is something over and above the school experience, this is a fight for children's social maturities as Canadians. I don't know what doctorate Ms. Macdiarmid holds but it seems she knows how to be a bully, something we teach our children not to be.

  • happy

    1 year ago

    One problem with that deeby

    Vancouver isn't the largest school district. Surrey is. The Surrey school budget is around a hundred million more than Vancouver. That ain't peanuts.
    And no drama from Surrey. They had fiscal problems like many other districts and dealt with them. Like they are paid to do. Are Surrey students worse off than Vancouver?
    And why are administrative costs over a hundred dollars higher per student in Vancouver than Surrey?

  • Skywalker

    1 year ago

    I enjoyed that Shannon.

    Same goes for all the posters. I'm with Van Isle on this. This is part of the plan. Put the whole education system at arms length. Appoint your buddies. You can waive any responsibility and any criticism can be deflected to folks who care even less, if that is possible. Just look at the Health Authorities.

  • Dr Alexander

    1 year ago

    An interesting but softball article.

    Quite frankly, I agree with premise of your article, but it does not really take a lot of journalistic chops to write this.

    Why not write an article that everyone at the Tyee seems to be avoiding.

    Israel's attack on the Gaza-bound flotilla for example.

    Or how about Libby Davies recent criticisms about the illegal occupation of Palestinian land.

    They both have local ramifications as a Victoria man was part of the flotilla and Libby Davies is a Vancouver member of parliament.

    C'mon Shannon. Show us that you are cut of the same cloth as Patti Bacchus and not just a cheerleader.

    This is your chance to make a difference.

  • happy

    1 year ago

    School board fired! Read it here!!!!

    http://www.theprovince.com/technology/List/2909187/Vancouver+School+Board+battle+Martyr+minded+rebels+thin/3140433/story.html

  • cp

    1 year ago

    The play rough

    I'm glad too to see Patti Bacchus standing her ground. The Liberals play rough.

    But where is the uproar from the parents? I've been to a couple of the demos in Vancouver, but I am shocked that there is not universal uproar about this. There is just a sad complacency amongst the parentariat, a sense that nothing can be done. And don't even try to get people to talk about it on the kids' soccer sidelines.

    Come on, people, show some real outrage.

  • Skywalker

    1 year ago

    happy

    Have you nothing better to do than to refer us to an article by Smythe written for the Canwest crowd to please their liberal friends. Come on man it doesn't take any insight from Smythe to come up with this screed.

  • Wendy Bradley

    1 year ago

    Thanks, Patti & Thanks, Shannon & Thanks, Tyee!

    Have you noticed in the past few years that when government officials are asked to comment on something of importance that's occurring within their own portfolio that they can get away with "No Comment" or "Wasn't Available" or "I can't speak to it because it's under study..." MALARKY! We pay them to LISTEN TO & ENLIGHTEN us! Where is the dialogue? How dare they not speak with their electorate?

    I recently heard someone say that the Liberals think democracy is 50% of the electorate marking a ballot every four years. Brilliant statement. Which is why I want to sincerely thank Patti for listening & speaking up with such clarity; Shannon for writing a thoughtful article; and the Tyee for presenting this forum – I love that Patti will get to read our thanks. Hopefully some of the 'no comment' politicians will too.

  • happy

    1 year ago

    Skywalker

    One simple question, answer yes or no.

    Did the NDP fire the NV school board?

  • myworld2

    1 year ago

    Distraction?

    I doubt that the Libs really need more distractions because all of the news is pointing to the same place, Cambell's style of leadership that has been well defined by commentors. I suspect that McDermmid is just carrying on with the Liberal play-book, the chapter on Shoot the Messengers or as stated in The Trial, "Shoot one monkey, scare a thousand" Campbell is probably thinking 'did McD have to do this now?".He's losing control of his crew. It may be the plan to get rid of school boards, but the timing for such a strategy is questionable.
    Great article, but I still can't see Lekstrom as a hero. The Libs will not stand up and speak out on the basis of courage: It will be more about fear. Bacchus is a hero. She just needs to stay within herself and not let us go to her head.

  • happy

    1 year ago

    I'll save you the trouble Skywalker

    Seeing as you don't like Canwest....

    quote:
    "On a rainy Sunday in March 1996, one thousand parents and children marched dom
    North Vancouver's main avenue to demand fairer funding for education fiom the province of
    British Columbia. Their local school board had been removed two rnonths pnor, by then
    Minister of Education, Art Charbonneau, for accurnulating a projected deficit of $5 million,"

    https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/bitstream/1807/11344/1/MQ29149.pdf

  • Carol Pickup

    1 year ago

    NDP Support for Arts and Culture

    Shannon Rupp's putdown of the NDP regarding support
    for the arts is pure fiction! As a lifetime member I
    chaired an arts and culture committee which produced a
    comprehensive arts policy. My co-chair was MLA Emery
    Barnes and we travelled the province for input into the finished policy. The original purpose of a lottery in B.C.(established by a NDP government) was
    to fund arts and culture, heritage and sports. Under
    the Harcourt government the NDP greatly assisted the
    film industry in B.C. As a school trustee in Greater
    Victoria and as a Saanich Councillor I fully supported
    ed the arts in schools and in the community. I was
    following NDP policy. Do your homework Shannon-I would be happy to fill you in!!

  • deeby

    1 year ago

    Two out of three....

    Happy wrote:

    Quote:
    Vancouver isn't the largest school district. Surrey is.

    Point conceded, however I stand by the other two: VSB has the most social problems, and the least amount of ideological alignment with the current govt.

    They were the obvious target for a deliberate attack, which happens to have the added bonus of undermining Vision trustees and the Vision brand.

  • Skywalker

    1 year ago

    happy

    Are you BC Boy who claimed that the NDP fired the VSB and I challenged him on it? He/you were wrong it was the NVSB. and it had nothing to do with Charbonneau. Sihota was minister at the time. You can read it here http://www.leg.bc.ca/hansard/36th1st/ha0807a.htm#1515
    and you will notice that there was a lot of discussion with the North Van MLA's and it almost appears as though they concur with the decision.

    How would you expect that a Smythe column , just because it is printed in some other place would have any more credence than one in Canwest? I never claimed that the NVSB was not fired. LOL

  • Skywalker

    1 year ago

    Maybe it was even Charbonneau.

    In any even sooo what!. It was one of Charbonneau, Ramsay or Sihota.

  • yuri1969

    1 year ago

    is this the ndp unofficial newspaper

    Unreal this bloq won't put up anything against the NDP, BCTF, COPE or any of the other coalition of chronic winers.

  • happy

    1 year ago

    Skywalker

    At no time did I ever say the NDP fired the Vancouver school board. Show me where I did.
    I said the NDP fired the North Vancouver school board.
    You agree. How many school boards have the libs fired?
    Charbonneau was the minister, he retired soon after.
    Besides, what would it matter, it was the NDP. The NDP fired a school board. Over funding. EXACTLY like the VSB situation today.
    Please read the THESIS I posted, which you obviously didn't to try to claim its a Smythe article, before you say another word. Your foots in deep enough.
    Thanks for the conversation,, I shan't be responding further, work to do. But do read the thesis. You too Ms Rupp.

    Cheers

  • Skywalker

    1 year ago

    Happy, in summary

    You posted a link to a Mike Smyth column in which he disses Patti Bacchus. As though that carries some authenticity. So I question why you would bother referring anyone to a Canwest rag let alone a shill for the liberals. Everything he writes about the liberals is done with kid gloves - nothing like he once wrote on the NDP. Anyway you come back with something out of thin air, "Did the NDP fire the NVSB?" The only time that question, or something similar, has come up is when BC Boy, I think it was him, said the NDP had fired the VSB. That's odd unless you are one and the same.

    Regardless, what does it have to do with your posting of a link to Mike Smythe. Nothing he says is unpredictable.

    So now, you make a case that the NDP erred in 1995. Maybe they did. Conclusion then is The liberals are making a mistake threatening the VSB with the same fate. You can't suck and blow at the same time. If the NDP did wrong then , the same standard applies to the current situation, Smythe's position notwithstanding.

  • Skywalker

    1 year ago

    yuri1969

    This is hardly an NDP Blog. Post something other the a "whine" about your perception. It only appears that way of late because there are very few Campbell Gang supporters out there particularly on certain high profile issues on the public's radar these days..

  • Skywalker

    1 year ago

    Happy

    An obscure Master's Thesis written by a Susan A. Carson does not in itself become factual. In fact most of it is conjecture and hypothesis. There is no evaluation as to accuracy or whether the evidence supports the hypothesis.

  • realisticman

    1 year ago

    Skywalker

    "This is hardly an NDP Blog." You are joking, right?

  • circle A

    1 year ago

    politics

    "the toughest sport in any town and the only game that counts" we need a lot more of Patti Bacchus and a lot less of carole james.

  • lorraine winter

    1 year ago

    You go girl!

    Shannon -- great writing and a lively subject you've pinpointed your talents upon. Keep going -- you're onto something -- and I live a long way away from Van but will watch how this 'give us more' story plays out.

  • Skywalker

    1 year ago

    realisticman

    Right, you prove it. Now if you would post something besides a whine, your time would be better spent.

  • happy

    1 year ago

    Skywalker the literary critic

    Well Skywalker....certainly your opinion on that "obscure Masters thesis" full of "conjecture and hypothesis" carries far more weight than the National Library of Canada that accepted it for publication. I guess they just put any old book on the shelf huh, without evaluating it for "fact or accuracy."
    So what would be acceptable to you? Besides the CCPA, which goes without saying. Certainly NO bias there.

    But thats immaterial anyway. My whole point was to show that the NDP had exactly the same issues with what was claimed to be school underfunding. When the local school board wouldn't comply they fired them. Thats a historical fact. And it didn't happen that long ago. You would think that might have been mentioned in this article. I guess lefty voters have short memories too, just like the slow witted rightys, huh? Or is it more a matter of selective memory and lets sweep the dirt under the carpet and pretend it never happened while we work oueselves into a lather and set our beards on fire raving at the libs who MIGHT do the same thing?

    BTW, drop the BC Boy shtick. I don't like his style. Clowns to the left of me, clowns to the right...

  • Skywalker

    1 year ago

    I think I understand your point Happy.

    So does the National Library of Canada research the accuracy of a thesis before it judges it to be worthy of "publication"? and what does this have to do with using a Mike Smythe column to make a point? If we take your word and Susan Carson's (I assume you are not the same person) that it was unnecessary in 1995, then it is unnecessary now, right? If education was underfunded in 1995 and that led to a firing, it must be underfunded now, right? If the NDP was wrong, then the liberals are wrong, right?

    All this from your asking us to read a Canwest column and my suggestion that it was not worth the time. Happy now? Clowns in the middle too.

  • Badger Billy

    1 year ago

    Mark Twain on school boards

    Mark Twain observed : "First the Lord made idiots. That was just for practice. Then the Lord made school boards."

    There is another old saying that might apply here. The function of the Board is to manage the railway, not to play with the trains.

    The trains, in this case, comprise the "10,000 things" as the Taoists would call them that comprise the Vancouver school system -- students, teachers, programs, bricks-&-mortar.

    If the law of the land is that school boards are not permitted to run deficits, then it is up to the bureaucrats to present options to the Board for them to manage within their means. If instead they see as their "mission" to play with the trains by their own rules, then they have engaged in a form of electoral misrepresentation.

    Spar on, Patti and Dr. Peggy. Cat fights are always fun to watch, aren't they now.

  • happy

    1 year ago

    Well Skywalker...

    I could only assume the NLC would want to cover their asses and make damn sure that a publication they accept as the definitive report on a certain historical event is accurate or we should all be on the phone demanding Harper yank thier funding too.

    You couldn't have read that Smythe article past the first paragraph. I thought it was obvious. Here is the relevant qoute:

    "For this radical bunch, getting axed by the cruel, right-wing government they despise would be worn as a badge of honour. Though I hate to remind them: the last government in B.C. to take such extreme measures was one of their own political stripe.

    In 1996, then-NDP education minister Art Charbonneau fired the North Vancouver School Board for failing to control costs and letting a deficit spiral out of control."

    OK? Theres the NVSB reference.Then you said Canwest is propagnada so I provided Federal Government instution publication, full of immense detail on the same event. NVSB firing. I hope I've connected my dots for you now.

    And again, you never read the thesis did you. It never came to the conclusion education was underfunded, or that the firing was unnecessary.

    In fact if you'd read it the parallels between the VSB and government in power today and the NVSB and government in power then are amazing. Or maybe not.
    It is BC.

  • Stickman

    1 year ago

    misunderstood

    One significant aspect of the Comptroller’s report was the suggestion to gain concessions from unions. This is offensive because it singles out employees (who are also taxpayers) to shoulder the burden of gov’t underfunding, but perhaps more significantly, shows that the comptroller has a major deficit in understanding the school system. Boards don’t negotiate monetary matters with their employees – only the government puppet BCPSEA does that – rather poorly as well. It also makes me wonder, what other aspects of the school system does the comptroller not understand?

  • Skywalker

    1 year ago

    Happy

    Does the NLC also have a copy of Mein Kampf or Das Kapital? Either way so what? What does a previous wrong (in your opinion) justify this one. I don't remember much of the NVSD event. Probably because even the right wing media didn't make much of an issue of it. Nor did the liberal MLA's in opposition set their hair on fire in protest. Otherwise we would have had their comments thrown back at them by the current opposition. I conclude then that the issues were different and the famous or rather not famous thesis by a student (which I have gone through) doesn't do anymore than support the original hypothesis formed at the beginning.

    So do I accept Mein Kampf as fact because it exists in some collection for historical purposes? The CTF has written books that are no more than right-wing propaganda shite, do I accept them as factual?

    Now Stickman makes a point that is very different from the points in the not famous thesis even if we were to accept the thesis as the last word..

  • happy

    1 year ago

    Atta boy Skywalker. Godwins law attained

    Where did I say what the NDP did in 96 was wrong? I didn't say one way or the other.
    I'd actually like all the commenters (besides YOU)to tell me what they think. Whether it was acceptable for a left wing government to fire a right wing school board over underfunding while its not for todays right wing government to do the same with a left wing board for the EXACT same reason. Running a non allowed defecit and claiming underfunding while the government claims they have all the funding they require. Sound familiar? You'd have to be pretty thick not to see the connection,
    Your Mein Kamf argument is pure gibberish and I'm ending this with you. You're displaying the worst traits that I and my ilk don't like about socialism. Telling me what is acceptable to post here. Canwest not allowed by order of Skywalker who speaks for all lest "some" get offended.
    I'd much rather but heads with Frank. He's just as intractable as you but converses with reasoning and fact.

    Ciao

  • Skywalker

    1 year ago

    Happy

    Your right. I never told you what to post or not. You can post Canwest all you like. We were debating the merits of your sources and the reasoning that says it was wrong for one, but if they did it so then it is right for the other. Now you have resorted to insults, which is typical when you are out of ammo. You are right. Time to call it a day.

  • G West

    1 year ago

    @happy

    Tell me, what is the total amount of all the possible deficits of every school board in the province at this time?

    I assure you it's a lot less than the total cash this government is going to pay to private schools this year.

    It's time the CEO got his priorities straight

  • G West

    1 year ago

    Right on Carol

    This statement of Shannon's is pure hyperbole:
    ...that put him at odds with his own party, which has never had anything but contempt for cultural industries.

    Furthermore, in addition to what you mentioned, the fact of the matter is that the NDP has been in power in this province for only 13 years out of the last 60...the suggestion that the NDP had enough time in power to show 'contempt' for anything is laughable.

    However, as seems to be the case with most 'working journalists' these days ( I guess Shannon qualifies if Mike Smyth does) there seems to be some unwritten rule that - no matter how bad the current government is at messing with the public sphere and selling off public assets - every account of that mismanagement and corruption has to include some obscure - often untrue and always out of context - reference to the NDP.

    Even my friend happy, who is, among right wingers, a pretty straight shooter, isn't immune to this phenomenon.

  • happy

    1 year ago

    Thats not the point here West

    And you know it. This isn't a debate about public/private funding. Its a debate about politics and school boards.

    Why is no one willing to answer my questions?

  • G West

    1 year ago

    I think they have answered your questions

    And I disagree about the point - the point is that the taxpsyer funded obligation on government is to create and sustain the public system - not its subversion.

    The public school system in this province has been starved for the past 10 years and probably longer.

    The solution - right now - is to cut off the pikers in the private system. Against which I have no resentment - they just don't have any rights to the public funds they're getting now.

    The CEO would rather pay for private schools and starve public ones.

    That's immoral and needs to stop and it is at the centre of the current crisis.

    THe money's there - it is being spent on the wrong things - that's all.

  • G West

    1 year ago

    The private school funding issue

    Is as political as it gets - and I think you know that too my friend.

  • happy

    1 year ago

    No the point isn't about private funding Its about Patti Bacchus

    Scroll up to the title if you don't believe me.
    I'll repost one single question:

    What was the difference between the NDP firing the NVSB in 96 and the liberals and the VSB today?

    To make you happy and also so you'll quit avoiding the real issue I demand all private school funding cease.

  • myworld2

    1 year ago

    Is this blog NDP?

    I am an NDPer. My comments are not a reflection of this political party. I am a member because this party best reflects my values. I will work hard to get the party elected. If, as government, the party fails to reflect my values I will look for another party [allowing for the fact that the party has to govern on behalf of all BCers, not just New Democrats.]
    If you would like to see comments that seem more balanced, then tell us about the following;
    - Why it is wrong for a school trustee to speak against continuous cuts to school districts.
    - How Basi and Virk can run their own little scam under the nose of a highly attentive premiere.
    - How Cash Heed's entire election campaign can function outside of the rules without him noticing.
    - How the liberals could decide within days after an election that the HST would be a good idea and at the same time realize that they were a couple billion dollars out on their deficit estimates.
    - Why it is good that the Supreme Court needs to tell the gov't to cough up documents so that programs can be properly audited.
    - Why is it a good idea to cut services to children who have been deemed to need protection.
    I could go on, but I want to keep it to recent
    news.
    Explain these things to us and there will be a balanced train of comments.

  • Skywalker

    1 year ago

    I thought I cleared that up.

    It was wrong for one in the past, and it is wrong for the other now even though one inherited a $2.5 billion deficit and the current inherited about $2 billion in surpluses.

    I couldn't resist adding the last part - only fair.

  • Dr Alexander

    1 year ago

    Actually happy and G West, you folks are on to something

    If Shannon really wanted to stir the pot and provide something informative and hard-hitting, then an exploration of just how much the tax-payer is on the hook for private schools, including religious ones, would be a good place to start.

  • G West

    1 year ago

    Disagree

    patti bacchus is just a symptom of the problem - the problem is chronic underfunding of the public school system AND the misallocation of scarce resources in this province - to wit, hundreds of millions of dollars each year being paid to Campbell's friends for contracts that could be done cheaper by and in BC (German ferries, for example) AND, especially in terms of education, supporting private schools instead of public ones.

    The suggestion that Surrey school boards are any better or more efficient than other districts is absurd - How much was it that Heather Stillwell and Mary Polak wasted on their prejudices?

    Oh, I remember, something to the south of one million dollars.

  • G West

    1 year ago

    Whoops!

    Dr A: thanks for that - the 'disagree' applies to happy's post about what the POINT of the article is.

  • myworld2

    1 year ago

    You tell me Happy

    Context is everything. I don't recall the details, but remember being queezie about it. Seem that you have studied it a bit, Happy. Tell me. Is it the same or is it in some way different?
    In this case, the trustees may be fired for not adhering to the legislation. From my point of view this would make Bocchus a martyr not a loser. I don't think I felt the same way about the earlier incident. Does this mean that I am consistent or inconsistent?

  • happy

    1 year ago

    No myworld2

    Its not one bit different. We have two ideologically opposed bodies sqauring off against each other.
    As in 96 the right wing North Vancouver board refused to make decisions to balance thier budget and instead blamed the problem on chronic government underfunding.
    All the other boards in the province balanced theirs.
    Including the VSB, which some here say has more problems doing so than other richer areas. Like North Van.
    So it was, and is, political theatre. Of course Bacchus wants to be a martyr. Its all part of the game. She refuses to take the advice of the professional school board managers and dismisses the comptrollers report as "not worth the paper its printed on"
    Nice slap in the face to the comptroller. Class. But I'm sure the comptroller is only a Gordo stooge anyway.

    Heres an idea for Patti. Since she refuses to take the advice of the professional staff, may as well let them go, don't you think? They must rake in six figures and being government employees the benefits.....we're talking major cost savings here. Sound like a plan?

  • G West

    1 year ago

    But ...and this is important

    Bacchus is not refusing to balance the budget...there is a fundamental difference between the situations - you're right about the Comprtoller being a stooge though happy. The comptroller general, unlike the auditor general, is not an officer of the legislature but an appointee of the Executive Council.

    The report is not the report of an independent body...

    There is a BIG difference.

  • G West

    1 year ago

    Oh, and one more small but important point

    When it comes to wrestling concessions from unions, I take it the CEO's minion (that's the Comptroller General) really ought to be looking to a former Finance Minister for lessons on that score - I mean, wouldn't you think that Mrs Art Phillips might have a thing or two to offer. Maybe a one billion dollar signing bonus?

    Y'think?

    Y'see, happy, the BC Liberals now have a 'reputation' of their own to live down - it's not so easy to shift the blame any more and there are still those 200+ millions a year going into private schools.... THAT'S a real Campbell legacy.

  • happy

    1 year ago

    Gretzky would be proud West

    So since shes a stooge you must disagree with her opinion that BC Ferry management is way overpaid then of course. I don't.
    Or do you want it both ways.
    Shes right about that but wrong about this? Or right about this but wrong about that?
    You've been doing some pretty wicked stickhandling tonight but the clocks run out.....

  • G West

    1 year ago

    Nope

    I disagree with her opinion - which has none of the specificity that one would expect from a professional auditor (but you have to actually read the 'report' to appreciate thet)...One of 'her' recommendations was that the VSB should wring more money out of the unions: Pointing out the irony of that recommendation coming from a government that paid a one billion dollar signing bonus to provincial employees should be 'ironic' enough for you.

    I wasn't actually thinking about the grotesque salaries of Hahn and his bunch...but that's an excellent point too.

    I'll add it to my argument in future. School funding in this province is in crisis - this government has been in power for 10 years - it's their baby and they're throwing it out with the bathwater - at the same time that they're paying more than $200,000,000. a year into private schools.

    You stick handle all you like - that sucker's in the goal and neither you nor the CEO can dig it out.

  • G West

    1 year ago

    By the way

    Never had much use for Gretzky. Probably only one thing I agree with Don Cherry about - and that is that Bobby Orr is the greatest player who ever laced on hockey skates!

  • G West

    1 year ago

    Maybe we should look at another board for a moment

    Langley

    Perhaps the comptroller general should get busy there too:
    http://www.sd35.bc.ca/district/communications/Documents/budget_ql/100609-budget_information.pdf

    Looks to me like a 'structural deficit' wouldn't you say?

  • happy

    1 year ago

    Looks like Langleys dealing with it

    Just like the rest of the province. Except Ms Bacchus.

    You just keep on trotting out the private school funding over and over and over. And over.

    Like Dr A said that would be an good subject to debate in a DIFFERENT thread sometime. B/c, thats is not what this is about no matter how hard you wish to steer the conversation in that direction and avoid whats happening in the VSB, and the VSB only.

    You're making a big deal about concessions too. What are they? Free Viagra? Wouldn't be the first. I prefer knowing details before any rational discussion can occur.

    Lets get real. This latest "crisis" (the most overused word in politics)will come and go. Its stage managed straight out of the NDPHQ's version of the PAB and I gaurantee you the general public could care less if/when Ms Bacchus is removed. There will be noise from the usual corners. There will not be people in the streets.

    No one - including you has answered my question yet. Just saying "no" or "disagree" doesn't cut it. Detail IS required. I've provided plenty.

    Whats the difference between the NDP firing the NVSB in 96 and the situation with the VSB and the libs today? Are the situations similiar or different. I say they are exactly the same. Politics and nothing but. Mr West maintains its private school funding that somehow affects only the VSB's ability to develop a Plan looking forward.
    Any other opinions? This thread seems to have gone quite cold since I posted that "additional" info about the shenanigans in 96.....

  • happy

    1 year ago

    Off topic but

    Yes, Orr was special. But you can't just ignore Gretzky's records. My actual all time favourite....Mr Hockey, Gordie Howe.

  • Skywalker

    1 year ago

    Not cold, just repetitious.

    It was wrong in 1986, it was wrong in 1995 and it is wrong now! The difference is that now the money squeeze is of the liberal government's own creation. School is almost out. Any actions by the government appointed hack will take effect in September. The protest will come in the form of recall.

  • G West

    1 year ago

    Why do I keep trotting it out?

    Because it is at the centre of the problem - that's all. Public education has been going downhill in this province since the Socreds brought in partial public financing of private schools.

    It was made infinitely worse when Campbell came to power and increased that funding to levels approaching and exceeding 50% AND when they started giving money for facilities (capital costs) as well.

    You can trace the decline of the public system in direct correlation to the increased funding for private schools.

    No one would put up with public funding for private clubs with exclusive memberships - especially at annual expenditure levels which would more than wipe out the deficits of ALL THE SCHOOL BOARDS IN THE PROVINCE...

    I'm not just talking about the VSB and neither should you be - I'm talking about the FUTURE OF PUBLIC EDUCATION.

    Mark my words, the real plan of the minister and the CEO is to take over ALL THE BOARDS (except the private ones which will not be touched of course) and run the whole operation from Victoria. With a little luck, that won't include the privatization of the actual school buildings and grounds.

    Don't count on it though.

  • G West

    1 year ago

    Sure I can

    Ignore Gretzky's records - just like I ignore him every time I see him crying about something or other on TV.

  • myworld2

    1 year ago

    Firing Trustees

    Thanks for that response, Happy. I still think the context counts. Crude example. It is wrong to punch someone in the head. Whether it is done after steeling a guy's wallet or by the victim to save his wallet makes a difference.
    My bias says that during this decade the Libs are deliberately starving education. In the last decade the NDP was curtailing spending, due to twenty years of 'tax cut' propaganda, across the board and the other school districts were not illustrating a crisis. The right wing trustees were attacking the NDP, which is fine, and they got fired for not following the rules.. Today's trustees are trying to preserve education funding. Different context; that is why I can be more upset about one than the other. My views on education are consistent.
    Generally, there is too much of this 'what about when the other guy did it?:. Context counts. I'm sure there are those who thought the same befaviour was wrong then and right now. This is actually more sensible than just focusing on the behaviour without the context.
    I gather that VSB is not going to get what they want. Bocchus could resign or wait to be fired whichever she thinks best reinforces her message. No, people won't be out on the streets much over this, but some of us will fight a little harder out of concern for public education.
    Skywalker says it was wrong then and now. I think it was less wrong then than now. I can have it both ways.

  • happy

    1 year ago

    You can have it any way you want

    I don't know if you read this link I provided upthread, if not please do. Its authenticity and factual content cannot be disputed, look at the references in the biblography at the end. The National Library of Canada considered it worthy of publication.

    Its the complete and total story on what happened in 96. The parallels between then and today are obvious. Back in 91/92 school boards were complaining about teacher collective agreement wage increases being downloaded to the boards. Sound familiar? Same old same old. Seems like the education system starvation you refer to started long ago, correct?
    You say it was "less" wrong then, what happened in 96. I'd like to know why. Funny thing is myworld2, people DID take to the steets in 96. Read the link. You may be surprised.

    https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/bitstream/1807/11344/1/MQ29149.pdf

  • happy

    1 year ago

    Ah West - I just figured it out!

    Of course you hate Gtetzky. He carried the torch! Sorry, I forgot or I wouldn't have used him. Won't happen again.
    What about that Howe though. Run right over top of you if you got in his way. Its a trait I've noticed of Saskatchewan natives....

  • Skywalker

    1 year ago

    You could try this one myworld2.

    http://www.straight.com/article-328923/vancouver/david-schreck-calls-comptroller-generals-schoolboard-review-political-document

  • G West

    1 year ago

    happy!

    As I told you before, we are talking about now - not 1996...and, as I also said, I think the problem in the schools is not just a problem in Vancouver.

    Vancouver has a Board with the beans to actually fight this battle and, for me, that's a good thing.

    By the way, I could care less what Wayne Gretzky does with his time - he was, for a period in the 80s and 90s, during the years when the talent pool of the NHL was severely depleted due to expansion, a good to excellent hockey player.

    He was no Bobby Orr.

    I'll include just two quotes - there are lots more out there.

    "Too bad they don't have another league for him to go to. He's too good for the NHL." Bobby Clarke,.

    "There's stars, superstars, and then there's Bobby Orr."
    Serge Savard.

  • happy

    1 year ago

    Bobby Clarke?

    The guy that broke Kharlamov's ankle?

    Yes I know we're talking about now. And its my contention that the "now" circumstances are identical to the "then" circumstances.
    I have nothing further to add and won't. No one has answered my question. The private funding issue is a red herring. Just like Mrs Art Phillips.
    Practicing for the next election?

  • rantnic

    1 year ago

    VSB DESTINED TO LOOSE

    UNTIL VSB SELLS THE REAL ESTATE ASSETS CAMPBELLS GOVT WANTS, THEY WILL NEVER GET A BUDGET THAT CAN BE BALANCED.

  • G West

    1 year ago

    Disagree

    $200 million per year is SOME RED HERRING.

  • Bobby Peru

    1 year ago

    More of Tyee's Agenda Journalism

    I guess local readers should expect this kind of unbalanced journalism from Tyee- a knee jerk reaction to anything remotely NDP. The feature quickly descends into partisanship with the remark. "Ironic coming from a minister forced to defend a government that is fast losing its authority as evidence of its own corruption and incompetence mounts." What does this have to do with the very valid findings of the investigator?

    It's really simple. Bacchus is just using this to grandstand, to play martyr. As a bureaucrat she should re-read her mandate and do her job instead of acting as the brown shirt arm of the unions. Of course the school board could use more money, every board needs more funding. Yet, of course, there are not just choices to be made but many priorities that the govt needs to finance. And it's the school boards' job to work for the provincial govt, not act as advocates. If every board can submit a balanced budget, then why can't this Vancouver board to the same thing?

    Don't forget that school enrollment is declining so the system must adapt to that. I know the unions hate adapting, but keeping open under utilized schools is a waste of money. And don't forget to ask Vancouver's mayor about why he spent $25 mio on bicycle routes instead of summer school programmes.

  • G West

    1 year ago

    Agenda comments

    More like.

    How many times do you think the same assets can be pledged for different debts?

    Perhaps you should expand your reading material a little more Bobby.

    There's a pretty decent long article on this subject in the BC section of yesterday's Globe and Mail.

    If you think the only School District in the province with money problems is the one in Vancouver, you need to get out more.

    And that union thing...drop it, it's a dead issue - this is the same government who decided a billion dollar signing bonus was the way to keep labour peace - and, have a look at Allan Seckel's recent revision of what kinds of job losses he expects henceforth in the public service.

    I'll save you the trouble - none....

    Now, let's talk about $400 million in public funds for a roof for BC Place before we get back to $200 million per year for private schools.

    Before we start selling the silverware.

  • Skywalker

    1 year ago

    I think I 've got it.

    The liberals sold off a lot of public assets for peanuts when the took office and many of their buddies made tons of money on the them. Some were just bought for speculation and then flipped or even bought back by other government agencies. This is what they intend should happen to the school board assets. There are a lot of school districts feeling the crunch and almost all of them are talking about closing schools and selling them.

    Lots of liberal friendly vultures are circling the skies.

  • G West

    1 year ago

    Yep! Skywalker.

    I think you've got it too.

    The absolutely clear AGENDA of the CEO is to consolidate ALL the school boards in the province.

    Excepting of course the Independent Schools which will be allowed to continue running their own show - with considerable and increasing (increasing at a higher annual rate than the miserly increases in funding for public schools) funding.

    Public boards will be combined into ONE district (or perhaps a small handful of districts) which will be administered centrally by bureaucrats (no doubt chosen from the staff of the comptroller general's office).

    Once local trustees have been legislatively shown the door, the CEO and his gang of 'educators' will pursue the same privatization strategy utilized in other sectors of the economy.

    The only hope for the future, sadly, appears to rest in the possible consequences of having a newly awake and aware electorate who may - by getting to their feet and raising their collective voices - put a stop to this nonsense.

    Which is, sadly, what always has to happen when the snakes in suits get hold of the keys to the money box.

  • Skywalker

    1 year ago

    GWest

    Have you also noticed how frequently now you hear the whine and accusation that the Tyee is engaging in "Agenda Journalism". The Tyee prints stories that the MSM won't and a few posters still defending the government whine. It makes me wonder if they are trying to lay some kind of a guilt trip on the Tyee expecting it to produce changes more favorable to the government. First there was Happy, then yuri1961 and now we have Bobby Peru. Where are the rest of the Campbell defense team?

  • G West

    1 year ago

    Umm!

    Generally I agree with you...I think I'd cite a slightly different cast of characters although some of the ones you mention would certainly make the grade.

    I have to say, in passing, that I find happy is generally pretty fair-minded in his comments. Not that I agree with him...but I find he's less intractable when presented with an interpretation that doesn't accord with his own assumptions...

    I have noticed that some of the players haven't been around Tyee of late.

    Summer holidays maybe?

    I'm not sure I really miss them though...if I had to name my least missed former interlocutors I think the lineup would have to start with 'Elliot' - followed closely by 'taxcutter 99' and 'working man'.

  • North of Hope

    1 year ago

    "I know the unions hate adapting." NOT!

    Bobby Peru says, "I know the unions hate adapting."
    There is probably no group of workers (i.e. union) more capable of adapting than the teachers. Whether if it's helping Mary trying to learn how to correct her grammar after she finds out that her boy-friend left her for her best friend. Or it's trying to squeeze into 80 classes what you used to teach in 90 classes because the school board decided to lessen the number of teaching days because the province has reduced funding.
    Teachers adapt to situations that you would not dream of and they do it admirably and continue to teach and help students learn. You do not survive in the classroom if you cannot adapt!

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