Here's another interesting point..

It is inherently obvious that this government is not listening to the people and is way too arrogant to learn anything. One of the fighthst.com organizers was invited to a senior's organization in Victoria to speak. The government was also invited. They declined to go THREE BLOCKS down the street to allay the seniors' fears around this tax. The reason? "All the information is on the website". The only problem is that only 3% of senior use computers and the internet. You can do a lot of things in BC, but you can't piss off the seniors. They are hard workers and they have long memories. If the HST goes ahead, this government will fall.

Just a thought

In Harper's perfect world he would get the HST passed and a majority government come next election. However, the reception of the citizens in both Ontario and BC has been so negative that he may be secretly hoping that the HST fails to pass in the House of Commons. The Conservative MPs here in BC have received a lot of negative feedback and I'm sure their Ontario cohorts have heard from their constituents as well.

Ask yourself, which would please Harper more, passage of the HST or a majority government. I would bet on the latter, because if he fails again there is a good chance that he would be replaced as the leader of the Conservatives, and I doubt his ego could handle that. Passage of the HST could well deny him his majority because of the backlash both here and in Ontario.

For all we know he may secretly allow his BC and Ontario MPs to vote against the HST under the guise of breaking ranks with their party. Power hungry people will use whatever means necessary to obtain their goals and no one fits the power hungry model more than Harper.

Another reason that Harper may not be all that upset to lose this vote is that when the offers were made to both Ontario and BC, the Tories were still pitching the line that the recession would magically bypass Canada. Now that the deficit is approaching $60 billion, their appetite to part with another $6 billion may not seem to be such a good idea. And don't forget that Quebec is looking for a couple of billion dollars because they got nothing from the feds when they implemented their version of the HST.

This vote could turn out to be one of the most interesting we've seen in ages.

Actually the BQ is giving

Actually the BQ is giving Iggy an out as it sounds like they will back this.

I would of been interested on how Iggy and the Libs would of voted on this had the BQ decided not to support Harper on this.

Tielman

There's no GD way I'm going to your facebook page, Bill, if I have to sign up to do it.

For Mr. Tieleman to rail the

For Mr. Tieleman to rail the masses against the tax is fair play for someone who is trying to promote the interests of his party. He's good at that even if a little on the weak side if taxation was his forte. It's not. Public relations is what he does. If his party were in power and this wasn't an issue among the electorate then we wouldn't hear boo. Social Democrats view taxation as a matter of promoting good social policy

Taxation is the price we pay for civilization as a learned jurist once said. There is nothing inherently wrong with the HST if 1) citizens feel they are getting value for money 2) taxes are being fairly applied which they are not 3)credits are granted to low income earners to offshoot the additional burden.

There are administrative advantages to a combined provincial/federal tax. It means less paper work for large and small business. Where my frustration lies is in tax policy which has been largely skewed in favor of those who already have a lot of wealth. To me opposition to the HST is a red herring since sales tax is a very efficient way of bringing in revenue. That's why the Europeans, and in particular the Social Democrats in Scandinavia, embrace consumption high taxes as fair. The difference is you never see it as it is included in the purchase price.

It's highly visible issue in Canada and gets people angry whereas unbeknown to those who do not study tax policy one can earn up to $71,000 tax free in BC using the provincial dividend income tax credit if you have no other source of income. That's the highest in Canada. In other words if you've got the capital - and I mean a lot of capital - to purchase
Cdn dividend paying stock this is what you can earn as income without paying a dime.

Well Bill - are you ready to take that one on?

"Taxation is the price we

"Taxation is the price we pay for civilization", isn't true. Taxation is the price we pay to support the elite because we are ignorant of where money comes from. The justification for the hst and any tax disappears in the clear understanding that money is not scarce, that we are being conned by the elite's financial shell game. Whether we win the battle against the hst or not is ultimately futile. The only question worth asking is where does money come from.

In the first few minutes of this movie, elite tool Paul Martin is asked that very question. Watch him squirm. http://www.ohcanadamovie.com/

"Social Democrats

view taxation as a matter of promoting good social policy". That's true. However, this particular tax will not move us towards that goal. This tax will simply take from us and give nothing back. You'd have to be naive to expect that the business who benefits will actually lower prices on their goods. When was the last time that happened? The government has already said that liquor prices won't be lowered because it will represent a loss of revenue to them (???) If they won't even lower prices, why would anyone else? And there are no tax credits being applied to help the few remaining "middle class" who are being nickel and dimed to death from all areas: users fees, retail, municipal, provincial and federal.

Besides, the biggest argument is that the Liberals lied to us about instituting this tax, at the same time they lied to us about the size of the deficit, while they are busy cutting our services and spending everything we have on the Owelympics. If it's a fair tax, let's slow down a bit and have a conversation around it, instead of having it jammed down our throats, especially at a time when we are all suffering.

ME2

You could just go to fighthst.com. You don't need to sign up to visit that website.

I appreciate the rhetoric

I appreciate the rhetoric Cynic although perhaps this quote from just one prominent member of Vancouver's Financial elite may temper your "analysis" You can read it in full at his website.

"The impact of Ontario and British Columbia's harmonized sales tax will be negative for investors" Tom Bradley at Steadyhand Mutual Funds

Doesn't sound very good for the elite, does it.

And if taxation is sordid in your world just how do you propose to fund health care? HST is an efficient way of gathering income to replace depleted revenues from, amongst other things, declining natural gas prices. Provincial and Federal deficits are rising and money needs to be found. Moreover I suggested one other taxation source which wouldn't deter the investment needed to create wealth, by bringing the provincial dividend tax credit in line with, shall we say, Ontario ($46,0000)

And perhaps you can enlighten us as to "where money comes from"? It's easy enough to promote an agenda for radical change if your theory holds. It's quite another to convince the public of its benefits when most, rhetoric aside, are primarily concerned about their bottom line. This is why Mr. Tieleman sees an opportunity to garnish advantage for the party he represents, by encouraging the NDP to support public displeasure. However, that's just his way and under a NDP government and facing similar economic malaise I think they would look seriously at the revenue potential. HST can be applied fairly so as to enable low income wage earners tax relief through increased credits.

Sunshine coast girl - a

Sunshine coast girl - a value added tax is standard in every northern European nation. What isn't is egregious wealth. The relationship to money and social solidarity is quite different from this country. I have lived there and here for an equal number of adult years and most people are nonplussed about taxation in Denmark since they get something for it. Of course dialogue between all concerned social partners is essential, something which is lacking in our "democracy". Hence the feeling you're getting rammed in your throat.

bpither aand ME2

The HST is about shifting taxes to the consumer which is shifting the burden mostly the middle income and poor citizens. That has nothing to do with whether taxers are good or bad; it is about fairness. Unfair taxation is what we pay for corrupt governments and oppressive governments. If the governments actually listened and consulted with more than the corporate sector this would not happen.

So you get one quote to say it is not good for investors whoopie! It is good for business but only for business as they pay less. Not good for investors in business. You are kidding me right?

Iggy announced they will support the HST and

the tax shift to the working citizen who can afford to buy things, but likey less and less!

The Real Tories

Imagine, the PC initiative from Ontario that is anti-HST! It seems the Ontario Tories are putting up a fight against the federal Conservatives. The Ontario Tories have seen the light; they know that their is only so much blood that can be wrung from the hides of average working people. I hope the silent majority finally rises up and says that enough is enough. It is time for the HST to be killed. The HST may very well be the death of those who support it. There is only so much gruel a worker can be mandated to eat while he or she works to package the good stuff for the aristocracy.

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2286464

Pardon the drippiness...

but people need to watch this YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVV5ks0BbOg

Mary Polak explains the HST is:

If you take a look at it from the perspective of someone who doesn't have a lot of money to spend on the additional toys and trips and all sorts of extravagances that many of us now can enjoy, this is the kind of tax that the opposition should support. This is the kind of tax that if you're a person with lots of money and you spend lots of money, you know what? You're the one who's going to get hit. If you're the kind of person who lives on a low income and you don't have a lot of money to spend, you know what? You're not the one who's going to get hit.

The fact of the matter is that it's obvious that the opposition doesn't support the implementation of the HST simply for political reasons. Because if it had to do with their social democratic philosophy, they'd certainly want to hit the rich and wealthy harder than they'd want to hit the poor, and that's exactly what a consumption tax does.

It certainly is far better than back in the day when people on low and moderate incomes actually still had to take more money out of their pocket to give to government. Imagine that there was a time when those who had the lowest income in our province were still having to pay income tax. It was a shame, but that's what happened. Now we've recognized, thankfully, with our government, that the important thing to do is to leave that money in people's pockets and to let them have the choices to make.

That's the other aspect to the HST that is empowering for people and in particular those on low income. It gives them the choice of how they spend their money and then how they are taxed. It doesn't just randomly say, "You've got income; we're taking it," which is what income tax does.

Now do you mind supporting that HST?

Re-do of comment

I didn't get the italics I requested so here goes the case for the HST in the words of the best performer in the House - also on sweet YouTube, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVV5ks0BbOg - now read if you'd like or don't care for the rock n roll pump-up.

-----------
If you take a look at it from the perspective of someone who doesn't have a lot of money to spend on the additional toys and trips and all sorts of extravagances that many of us now can enjoy, this is the kind of tax that the opposition should support. This is the kind of tax that if you're a person with lots of money and you spend lots of money, you know what? You're the one who's going to get hit. If you're the kind of person who lives on a low income and you don't have a lot of money to spend, you know what? You're not the one who's going to get hit.

The fact of the matter is that it's obvious that the opposition doesn't support the implementation of the HST simply for political reasons. Because if it had to do with their social democratic philosophy, they'd certainly want to hit the rich and wealthy harder than they'd want to hit the poor, and that's exactly what a consumption tax does.

It certainly is far better than back in the day when people on low and moderate incomes actually still had to take more money out of their pocket to give to government. Imagine that there was a time when those who had the lowest income in our province were still having to pay income tax. It was a shame, but that's what happened. Now we've recognized, thankfully, with our government, that the important thing to do is to leave that money in people's pockets and to let them have the choices to make.

That's the other aspect to the HST that is empowering for people and in particular those on low income. It gives them the choice of how they spend their money and then how they are taxed. It doesn't just randomly say, "You've got income; we're taking it," which is what income tax does.
-----------
As you can see, the HST is a great idea.

If you conduct some research

If you conduct some research you will find lots of investors - or a substantial number of Canadians who own stocks/bonds in their RRSP - opposed to HST because it is a goods and services tax - they'll have to pony up more to buy and sell a mutual fund for example. Whereas if you own a business your paperwork will diminish; your administrative costs will drop.

And yes the "middle class" will pay more, and the poor should pay less if tax credits are increased. The poor already pay a disproportionate amount of direct tax in my opinion.

I would like to know from the general public just how do you suggest we fund health care in the coming demographic bomb which is an ageing population. And how do you propose to bring down a growing budget deficit?

Federal liberals are extinct......

Iggy has made his biggest error....He has ordered his party to vote on masse to support the HST....

I was wrong in thinking the HST was going to fail federally....

The good news is...Iggy is finished...He is voting AGAINST 80% of BCers and 76% of Ontarians...How foolish is that...In talking to Ujal Dosangh..he claims he`s opposed to the HST but will tote the party line...

So my friends,in a province with the lowest minimum wage,highest cost of living,municipal taxes going up...MSP is going up...Translink is putting 3 cents per litre on fuel as of January 1/2010.....And were getting another 3 cents of carbon tax on July 1st.

The Federal Liberal party doesn`t stand for anything anymore, they`re backing McGuinty who falling like a stone and Gordon Campbell whose political career is over.....

Congratulations in becoming the official opposition Jack Layton, and when the HST drives Canada into another recession and doesn`t create jobs,when it costs jobs,drives the underground economy,brings in net less tax dollars there will be nowhere left to go.

Rest in peace Iggy...Rest in peace McGuinty...See you in Hell Gordon Campbell

Cheers

bpither

Direct taxes on the poor will increase with the HST.

The tax is revenue neutral for the government so health care will not be getting any additional funding.

So I ask you, how are you going to fund health care in the future? By increasing consumption taxes?

HST has already passed.

Today the Federal Liberals stated they are in favor of the HST, so its over.
I guess "We the People" is only for those living in the USA.
Proud Canadian, I think not, not any more.
Today I was at the foodbank getting bread for a local grade school, the PAC budget was cut in half and we have spent all our budget on feeding kids. While Harper is building jails to hold these 5 year old kids waiting in the bread line today.

Frank. There is a difference

Frank. There is a difference between direct and indirect taxes. Direct is implicitly on earned income. Indirect is on goods and services. As I've already outlined you increase tax credits to the poor to offset the HST on lower income earners. Simple as that.

The term revenue neutral is theoretical in Economics 101 and any government spokesperson which uses this term is just playing up to the public. HST is essentially another source of revenue which will give a one off 1.6 billion federal contribution to provincial coffers, for "implementation" (actually a euphemism for bribe)

I'm afraid with an ageing population, plunging revenues and increased federal/provincial expenditures to fight the consequences of unscrupulous financial mismanagement you are going to witness an increase of fees and taxes everywhere as one alternative ... and none of the rest sit very pretty either. And consumption taxes fall in this category as well. Or, the feds will offload responsibility to the provinces and they to the municipalities which will have to raise revenue or cut services as they are presently doing in Vancouver. It could be worse except ...

You can all be thankful that Paul Martin saved this country from growing debt which now places us in far better stead to tackle this mess than most of the developed world as our debt/GDP ratio is now much lower than all other OECD countries.

You can rail against that as you will but no government, including an NDP one, would have acted any differently. Saskatchewan under Tommy Douglas and Roy Romanow had to make the same tough decisions to eliminate deficits and debt. In the case of the latter when the unions told Finance Minister Janice Mackinnon to simple renege on the debt ( hang the bankers so the speak) she quietly informed them that no financial institution would lend money to that province again. And if they did the interest would be ruinous.

I thought Harper's decision to lower the GST as politically expedient but financially dumb. Now we've got a big hole to fill by getting the revenue from ... where?

And for the financially literate will someone please explain to me what they would do to fund services? It's easy to be a critic.

Balancing the budget is easy

How about getting the rich to pay their fair share instead of allowing them tax loopholes.

Iggy, you are a gutless creep and the federal liberals have forever lost my vote.

Time for a Little Trudeaumania

A note to a neighbouring Liberal MP:

Dear Mr. Dhaliwal:

Even though I am not a resident in your riding, you are the closest Liberal member of parliament in my general area.

Please carry this message back to Ottawa and the Liberal caucus:

I have been a supporter of the federal Liberal Party for my entire adult life, dating back to the Trudeau years. Through thick and thin, during difficult times under prime ministers Chretien and Martin, I continued to believe that the Liberal Party had the best interests of average Canadians at heart.

Although I was somewhat skeptical about Mr. Ignatieff's ability to lead the party out of the doldrums and form an effective opposition, I gave him the benefit of the doubt - because that's what a believer does.

That changed today when I read that Mr. Ignatieff intends to support government legislation on the HST - and will require Liberal MPs to vote accordingly. I believe that this is a fundamental betrayal of average taxpayers, particularly in BC, who have made it abundantly clear that we do not support a major transfer of tax burden from corporations to individuals.

For the first time in nearly 40 years, I will not support the Liberal candidate in my riding when the next election comes. While I cannot bring myself to vote Conservative without gagging, I will either vote NDP or abstain entirely.

Enough is enough. It is time for the Liberal Party of Canada to "do the right thing" for a change, and let the chips fall where they may - instead of doing the "politically expedient" thing and destroying what remains of your credibility.

A little Trudeau-esque "just watch me", and the occasional finger gesture, might actually inspire Canadians to believe again.

bpither

Its not as simple as giving low income earners tax credits because that isn't being introduced.

And the HST is not a source of revenue because its being offset by a loss of revenue from business.

On the matter of Tommy Douglas and Romanow, they didn't like being in debt and as usual for left-wing governments, they paid off the debts that right-wing governments had run up.

As for the rest of your logic I have no idea why you're claiming that it has to be consumption taxes or doomsday.

And its you that is claiming that lowering income and corporate taxes and raising consumption taxes is a good thing, you simply haven't explained how that makes us better off or pays for the services that were already cut.

Oh man

Are you telling me I'm actually going to have to volunteer with the NDP in the next federal election to kick out my Liberal MP?

Whatever, I'll giver her a chance. Here's the (second) letter I'm writing to Hedy Fry:

"Dear Dr.Fry,

The party can not afford to lose you. Please break party discipline and vote against the HST bill. We're not calling an election any time soon and by the time the whole thing blows over Iggy will be gone. Don't let yourself be seen as supporting Gordon Campbell. Please do the right thing - you know that this tax is awful and wrong."

HST

Well we all hate taxes but we need them. To me it's not the overall impact of this tax but a few things that do bother me about it are, 1) Government was dishonest in revealing thier plan, 2) No public input or referendum, 3) Nothing except a mealey HST credit for low income earners and 4) The complete arrogance of gov't to avoid people's questions,concerns and disapprovals. Iggy has stated that he will support this bill, guess what?, A lot of people won't support him or the cons.

Frank and Polakite

I went back and reread the Mary Polak explanation of the HST. It reminded me of the Sarah Palin interviews and her trying to explain Health care reform. Uncanny the similarities. its the kind of explanation that would appeal to Republicans of the George W. variety.

The NDP is opposed to the HST only for political purposes? You must be joking? It is a "bread and butter" issue! If anything the liberals are in favour only for political purposes. That is easily proven. It's a bribe from the federal government which they can't turn down because they are desperate for revenue. If that isn't a political decision with a little "damn the public" what is?