Referenda

California has has a recent history of a lot of citizens initiatives, questions that are put on the ballot at election time. These have hamstrung the government in a lot of ways and have had a significant impact on the difficulties that the legislature and governor face there.

ME2

"Success...?" Some say they have, others say no.

Google 'Prop 13' for some opinions.

BCLiberal grassroots are crying too

Things are pretty awful here down at the grassroots in the BCLiberal party. Nobody shows for meetings, individual donations are nonexistent. There's lots of talk from Christy Clark's people about the timing of all out assault. You hear rumors about Diane Watts. Nobody is even mentioning any of Gordo's odious henchman like Coleman, or Falcon as leadership candidates

Will Canwest force Gordo out after the Olympics? Will Canwest/Gordo still be around telling the voters what do after the Olympics? Will MSM pundits Palmer, Baldy, and Smythe actually become journalists?

The federal liberals went from Trudeau and Cretin to conservative PM squared then back left with Stefan Dion. Come on over all you disaffected liberals, buy a party membership and help us out. There's a good chance we can get the fascists out of the party or at least blunt their sharper edges over the next year.

The NDP and Greens have no legislative influence until the next election. Gordo will just ignore a referendum if he loses it, hoping that Rupert Murdock buys Canwest/Gordo, leaves him as boss man, and reaces the next election against Carole James.

Recall might work but once again with Carol James as an alternative and Canwest/Gordo still running the media show with the CBC castrated by Harper, the odds are really bad.

Gutless Gordo

Do you think the so called "LIbERalS" and gutless Gordo will allow a referendum. Right now they're squirming trying to figure a way out of this mess. Diann Watts is a Pretty Face but can she stand the heat of a not so popular office that the GUTLESS one will leave? CC is just a shrill voice from the past. Not too bright but really LOUD. Both of these potential leadership candidates of course will have to the pass the Bildeburger test and of course they will but, can they hold up to the heat of the public test?

The Far Right have to redesign their policies to make them palatable for the general public. The call from Seth to unite disaffected LIbERalS to rejoin and boot out the Nazi's is ludicrous in its deception. There are no LIbERalS in the Federal LIbERal Party just reformed red Tories that disagree with Iggy and the rest of the toadies that call themselves the CONServative Party.

Anyone who follows Seth will certainly find themselves in the Bildeburger wilderness without corporate support. The LIbERalS will not win an election without that support.

When you really assess the situation here in BC we must elect a true left wing government with the will and gonads to say to hell with the Bildeburger's and get on with legislation that really serves the general public. Unless we do that we can kiss our ASSETS good bye.

Where are the controls?

How is it that the system or processses that were there to keep politions honest and busy doing the work for the electorate are now non-existant or so weakened that the electorate may as well not exist. Where is this democracy we keep hearing about. Come on opposition. People from this liberal government should be in jail for all of the things they've done. Members who are under investigation should not be allowed to govern while this is going on. Where is the opposition? Things are so bad now that all the opposition party's should band together to rid us of these idiots and then call another election with new rules in place that will protect us from sell outs like the Lieberals.

BC ceased to be a democracy..................

................sometime during Glen Clark's administration; call it the Millennium Line job.

After SkyTrain's non too stellar stats, (oh yes ridership was high but that was because and still is TransLink's penchant for cascading every bus rider it can on the metro) there was a grand consensus for LRT to be built in the region. But no, Clark and McPhail masterminded the great SkyTrain caper and forced the metro on the region, again.

The public and BC Transit's (later TransLink's) consultation was a complete charade.

Fast forward to the RAV/Canada Line, again the Premier forced TransLink to build a SkyTrain subway so his friends at YVR had a metro to brag about and those good Liberals along the Arbutus Corridor didn't have to worry about a tram operating there.

There was absolutely no meaningful consultation with this projects and only when the cost of RAV spiraled out of sight was a cheaper (Hyundai) metro used in a cheaper cut and cover tunnel.

In the USA just about every rapid transit system has been approved by public referendum and honest public consultation.

Not so in BC (and Canada) where autocratic dictator style Premiers, wielding immense power decree as they wish.

The lickspittals (both NDP and Liberal) are afraid of change, lest they loose their turn to be dictator for a term.

Until we get selfless politicians who will change the way we vote and hold government to account, BC will drift into a totalitarian state where dissenters are treated as enemies of the state.

Sadly when that happens, only a revolution will change they way we are governed.

Democracy

The world is run by those who show up. BC had it's chance, last election, but nobody bothered "showing up". The NDP didn't even show up. The current government is rotten to the core, the opposition is just a bunch of repetitious bleating rabble who have lost any credibility. Big media carries on beating the right wing drum, this media regurgitates the radical left-wing/union directed drivel.
Even Rafe has to read a book to find any inspiration.

The topic - Best Reason for a Referendum

Rafe first said, "The buck stops with us" and then asked the quintessential question: Is the public to be condemned because the process has failed them?
To me, the answer is an unequivocal "Yes." Why? Because although, in a democracy, a referendum is a polite, neat and tidy way of obtaining public opinion, if people are denied that opportunity, the last thing they should do is sit back and do nothing...especially if and when they are being lied to.
As things stand right now, we have become an apathetic bunch of enablers - too lazy to get off our derrieres and stand up for our rights. If we are not prepared to march in the streets over BC Rail, over the TYPES of cutbacks that are happening, over the HST deceits, and now over the eHealth scandal, we might just as well hand Campbell and his Cabinet the Nobel Peace prize.
You're so right, Rafe; the buck does stop with us, but it seems we don't know what to do with it!

Exactly right Mr. Mair

The Bill Goods,the Baldrey`s,the Palmer`s the Les Leyne`s have already started telling their readers that the anti-HST drive is over,Canwest news over the week-end have been saying the HST anger is over.....
Their wrong,it`s just getting started,right now the BC Liberal support,according to Ipsos Reid is about 30%.......
Well,with Ipsos`s track record on polling in BC you can knock another 7% off that total....Recall must happen, the HST may have started by then but to be involved in recall,a recall to remove a criminal organization from government,I can`t wait.

And a note to Seth and Grumpy,I am getting sick and tired of you two saying the NDP are useless,they might be but it`s better than having criminals running government......

And, you keep parroting along with others like Palmer and Bill Good that....Boo hoo,recall is too hard,it`s too onerous,we can`t do it,wah wah wah......
Bend over boys......enjoy your capitulation.

Cheers-Eyes Wide Open

Vaughn Palmer latest column

Enjoy Vaughn`s column.....

Funny,Vaughn Palmer talks like the capitulators here at the Tyee...ooh..recall is too hard...wah wah wah
Perhaps someone with someone with some talent should look into how much Plutonic and private power stock the ledgie boys and legislative reporters have bought....

After all,who knew more about Campbell`s push to private power than the reporters who followed government and rubbed shoulders with government staffers who fled to Plutonic/Naikun and other projects...their motive for the Campbell pimp job is financial....Follow the money,or in this case...follow the investments of people or reporters who hung around Victoria.

(Vaughn Palmer column here)

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Anti-drive+going+nowhere/2090472/story.html

Ooops...messed up the link

Vaughn Palmer...

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Anti+drive+going+nowhere/2090472/story.html

referenda

It does appear that "democracy" has been hijacked.
Does anyone here actually believe that "writing your Congressman" (sorry MLA) will actually make a difference?
My mother has been writing letters lately to politicos and even received a few answers. She asked us to dismantle her computer years ago due to offensive spam so everything she sends is pen and ink and stamped. I need some form of word proccessor 'cause my handwriting was bad before I got old and now it is illegible even to me.
But I often wonder what the ease of delivery with email and comments has done to us - possibly distracted us from the job at hand?

Thanks Rafe - get ready for a rumble over HST - Bill Tieleman

Thanks for this column Rafe - indeed, both Vaughn Palmer and Global TV have recently declared the HST revolt is over, finished kaput. But nothing could be further from the truth.

A few facts - the HST was only announced on July 23 - we have yet to see any detailed government explanation of what is and is not covered by the HST nor any of the provincial legislation to enact it - that won't come till spring.

Meanwhile, key industry groups who were stunned by the BC Liberals suprise HST announcement and most negatively affected are still in the denial stage. While the restaurant associations, tourism, homebuilders and real estate organizations all try to bend the ear of Finance Minister Colin Hansen and Premier Gordon Campbell, the reality is that the hard cap on HST exemptions is so limited that none of them can be helped.

Meanwhile, the Fight HST group started by former Socred Premier Bill Vander Zalm and backed by myself, deputy BC Conservative Party leader Chris Delany, the Refederation Party and many others with NDP, non-aligned and former BC Liberal backgrounds are working on launching a province-wide initiative.

As Rafe says, it isn't easy - it requires 10% of voters in every riding to sign a petition within 90 days to succeed. That means it needs serious organization in every corner of the province, and that takes time.

But it is being done - and it won't be launched until the framework and strategy are in place.

So don't listen to the obituaries written by those who've never been involved in a single campaign in their lives - the game is just starting.

But one clarification - this is an Initiative not a referendum - it is not binding unfortunately. But if the BC Liberals ignore a successful campaign they are committing political suicide and recall will follow.

For more on Initiative check my Tyee article at:

http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2009/08/18/NoToHST/

Referendu maturity

In Geneva last month they voted on a number of referendum questions three of which were hotly debated and would have some familiarity to BC voters:
1) A proposed sales tax increase.
2) Stricter antismoking rules affecting restaurants and pubs who advertised their strong opposition.
3) A proposal to privatize a portion of a major public lakeside park to allow a new office building for the World Trade Organization.

There seemed to be an active public debate. To make its pitch the WTO opened its doors to the public for the first time in 29 years and defended not only its building program but also its international policies.

Astoundingly to me, all three propositions passed, demonstrating that a society used to referenda can pass nonpopulist propositions.

We got an Olympic referendum, and, despite my dismay at the result and at the way it was bought by the business community, I have to accept the legitimacy it brought to this enterprise.

Bring on the votes.

Democracy?

It seems that too many people think we have a democracy because we get to vote every four years or so. Newsflash-we don't! All we really have is the choice of which dictator to put in the cat-bird's seat to rule the roost. As long as we have political parties we will have this situation.

Just reflect on the last few federal and provincial elections. All the advertising in the main-stream media is focussed on the party and its leader. The candidates that are running for the various parties are nothing more than a necessary evil. In a true democracy we should have the choice of voting for whomever puts their name up for election. Instead we get candidates that have been filtered a party, its riding executive and probably input from the movers and shakers hired by the party to run the mother ship. This system is great for the media as they only have to concentrate on a few parties and their leaders and just marginalize the individual candidates. The question is, does it serve the general population? The answer is a resounding NO. All we do is make it easy for big business to control the government's agenda, and that does not bode well for the individual. Big business is only interested in the bottom line and the individual is nothing more than a speed bump impeding their goal.

The bottom line is dump political parties and get true democracy or embrace the system as we have it now and just bend over!!!!

Too busy attacking each other

Gordo must read this stuff and laugh his ass off.I doubt that anyone can get a bunch of people too lazy to vote in an election to get out and vote in a referendum,or for a referendum.Until the NDP smarten up and find a new leader,one with an ounce of political savvy,what can we do?I voted green but not for anything Jane Sterk said,just because there was no party offering anything except the Greens.It adds nothing to the discussion for two people to have an argument that takes up half of the space allotted for discussion.Just a thought.

Initiative, referendum

There is a way to make sure politicians keep their promises, debate policy and keep citizens responsible for their choices. Since we have fixed election dates there could be a formal audit of government finanaces. On the basis of that audit each political party could develop a 4/5 year budget. In addition to electing MLAs there could be a ballot on which budget the citizens want implemented.No matter which party was elected the citizens budget would prevail. The role of the opposition would be to oversee the implementation of said budget. In the case of dire unforseen circumstance some method such as a unanimous vote in the legislature or agreement of an all party committee/leaders would allow for changes to the budget. In this way citizens would have to take responsibility for the way they voted, election campaigns would be about policy not personality and promises would become binding. It's time to stop the us/them idea and become 'we.'

Repair kit

Since the Regan/Thatcher/Mulroney assault on democracy began the kinds of damage done have become pretty obvious. Checks and balances intended to counter undue influence by special interests are now almost completely dismantled.

If we're gonna talk about referenda and public input, it's purely in the nature of reparing the thing to make it function again as it was designed to.

Used to be that necessary changes would be shouted for by the free press. No longer. This was the reason for anti-trust laws about how many outlets one could own, until those laws were repealed at the demand of the obvious people. This was an intentional protection. If we were to have a referendum mechanism, it would really be to replace that possibility of public input into the processes of our public decision making.

It would be by that means that we could oppose the misappropriation of public property and utilities. Some paper or broadcaster would do an expose, then people would, in outrage and with good information, be able to run the crooks out of town on a rail.

Would a referendum replace that outrage and information with anything effective? Especially in light of the not-so-private press' ability to disseminate contrary BS and stifle truth at will?

What about some new laws defining campaign promises and statements as contractual obligations, and breaking them as fraud. A criminal offense, and grounds for charges and trials and public judgements and sentences.

If a politician did what ours have made such a habit of, swearing to the electors that they were really really fish, then flying away with the rest of the foul as soon as the electiuon is over, then that would be a crime, and even a small voice like ours in this Tyee might be able to force the police to act. Even against their will.

That public control over misbehaving public officials in the essence of democracy, and is the thing that crooks really fear.

It might even be possible to hold the referendum to create such laws outside the control of said crooks, then use the results to force their official adoption.

Thought Police

If it ever were to be considered that politicians must not lie and were they to do so they could be sanctioned for it, the what is to be the forum and what will be the definition of lying.? Judge and Jury, or some committee?

Referenda are tricky because they can be used to great effect - by both sides. A casual glimpse at the Porposition 13 California referendum result, in lack of funds for education and public services exists to this day. Some will say that the resulting rise in property values was due the capping of property taxes after Prop 13 was passed. Some say this was good, some say no. Business and wealth boomed but services suffered until assessments caught up to increased evaluations.

General referenda on tax issues could be a road some might regret going down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_13_%281978%29

Referenda versus Budget Ballot

It's true that most citizens are happy with tax cuts but a budget also reveals curbed services. Those of us who cannot afford private schools, hospitals, police services etc. should wake up to the fact that it all costs money but it is well spent if we have a happy, healthy,secure life style. We are the majority of the people and if we so wished and had an effective tool for expressing our wishes we would all benefit.

P.S. Referenda versus Budget Ballot

We already have a legislature. The government's job would be to implement the people's budget, the opposition's job to make sure this was done. A public forum just as we have now.

Not Thought, only actions can be crimes.

Such actions would be crimes, rman, not thoughts.

Lying is not always fraud, only lying to obtain benefits illicitly. If we define paid public office as a benefit, and required officeholders to faithfully hold to their oaths of office, as we in fact used to do, then the list of malfeasances that would be crimes would be manageable by the courts.

It's currently legal to bribe our officials if it's done through party funds or even directly if done before the election is held. And then when crooks sell off public assets to contributors they need not even hide the bribes. They feel that safe from current laws against bribery. Hiding behind perceived loopholes.

If bribery were redefined, then examples like the minister who changes banking regulations then goes immediately into banking, or the minister who destroys wild fish stocks while his or her family own fishfarms, could easily be viewed as evidence of crimes, and investigations begun with an eye to exposing corruption.

Fraud, bribery, malfeasance, misappropriation, corruption, conflict of interest, falsification of records, perjury, influence peddling, breach of trust. Just a partial list of the things that either used to be or ought to be offences, and have now become business as usual among our elected officials at every level, if even a small fraction of the obvious indicators point to any variety of truth.

They no longer even pretend to be ethical, let alone bound to their proper duties.

I point out the dismantling of the Auditor General's effectiveness and the abolition of the Ombudsman's office, the curtailing of legal aid and the removal of social workers from our communities just before the property of British Columbians was stolen, the services for our pioneers and our weakest citizens, and the protections for our children were wrecked. All of which were debated properly and agreed by electors and paid for by our taxes for generations.