Campbell's in the soup...

...but is it hot enough to cook him?

dissent form within

WIth Gordo's popularity hitting towards George Bush's levels, perhaps internal dissent helped out with a lot of strategic defections from the NDP and Green's can unseat Gordo and his henchman.

As we all know Canwest/Gordo is not a liberal he is a Neocon and along with Falcon, Coleman, Kruger, Polack and many others belongs in the BC Con party. We liberals in the now BCLiberal party want our party back after the Neocon hijack of the 90's. With this precipitous drop in party support we think we may have a chance.

We need liberals out there to come back to the party of Gordon's Gibson and Wilson. We need to stop Campbell now before he completely destroys BC with his five year license to kill. Suspend your NDP and Green memberships at least until the next election gets closer and buy BCLiberal party memberships Participate in constituency association elections and boot the Neocon supporters from their positions. Help us to rid the party of the yoke these fascist hijackers have put around our neck. Lets give them the boot at the next convention. I'm tired of being ashamed when I whisper my political affiliation to folks.

We can do this!!!

Well seth.

Perhaps you should be addressing all those true liberals of the party in the 90's who suspended their principles and selected Gordon the Socred to lead them, rather than wasting your time on the folks that probably never voted for Gordon and likely never will, at least not now. You want them to join Gordon's party and try to boot him out and then run the risk that they will be part of Liberal party that will have to define itself after an election. Given the power behind it, it could prove to be just as bad as this one.

You would be better off to argue for an anybody but BC Liberal and keep doing that until some liberal actually defines himself or herself as a true liberal and not just some spineless liberal in the pocket of big business - a conservative without backbone.

If you are tired of being ashamed of your affiliation there is a simple solution.

Borrowing from Seth's plan,

Borrowing from Seth's plan, why don't the former NDP supporters get involved with their party and help redefine the party in their image? There is no individual waiting on the sidelines who is going to step forward and lead us all out of this hell. Its going to take a concerted effort on everyones part to make the changes we so desperatly need.

And Grumpy, if the NDP were to abondon their ties with labour, they'd be lucky to have two seats in the legislature. Who do you think provides the manpower to carry these campaigns off? I'd be very happy if a small group of non partisan citizen showed up at local NDP campaign offices and offered to help.

No political party is ever going to develop policies that are good for the majority of people, if the people refuse to participate and speak up.

I'm a Unionist and an NDP'er and I'll contiue to support both,because they are the only tools I have to help fight for a better future. Could they both do a better job, absolutely. Is there a viable alternative for me, no.

Thanks for the history lesson

Rafe, thanks for the history lesson. You raise some relevant parallels. Let me add a couple observations.

I do recall 1983 very well. I recall the massive anti-restraint protests, which damn near brought Bennett to his knees, were it not for Munro flying in to prop up the Socreds with the Kelowna deal. Some of the anger over the current HST, Campbell budget lies and gaming grant cuts vaguely parallels the public outcry heard back in the Bennett restraint era. My question is, where is the massive response. There is none. We have HST rally organizers like Bill Tieleman exaggerating the turnout numbers, saying 5,000 (which was actually closer to 2,000) protesters is a smashing success. This is a far cry from the 10's of thousands pouring onto the Legislature lawn in '83 and the general strike that forced a leader to cut a deal with his arch enemies. For this reason, I still think Campbell has a good shot at number 4 if he wants it. But I don't believe he wants a 4th term. And here's why...

My political deductions, based on all that's happened since the original budget in February, is that Campbell (in counsel with his closest allies and colleagues) had made a conscious decision around that time that the March election would be his last, and he was going to do whatever it took, including lie about the numbers, in order to get the team elected. This drama is still unfolding. The closer we get to the next election, the more blows Premier Campbell will absorb for the team, and the timing of his resignation will be staged to strategic perfection.

Mark my words, in three years, you are going to see an untarnished, highly popular and well-liked Liberal like Dianne Watts be Crowned leader, followed by a party makeover leading up to the election. Campbell will be but a fading memory in the minds of voters as that election nears. If Carole James is still fumbling political footballs at that point, the NDP doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell.

Dianne Watts, Carole Taylor, Leadership Convention?

Sounds like a leadership convention coming up. Time for progressive activists to join the Liberal party, make sure a lefty takes the leadership and boot the neocons.

You can talk all you like about replacing James and new political parties but the fact remains that Gordon Campbell has total control for the next 5 years unless either the party or a recall campaign boots him. If NDP and Green progressives switch to the the Liberal party they are at liberty to quit at any point hopefully after the neocons are gone and workin away at the BC Conservative leadership.

Both Frank and Skywalker loving the BS, know full well it wasn't liberals who put in Gordon Campbell, it was massive membership buys by ex Socreds that put him in. The exact process I am advocated here but in reverse.

D'ya thunk Frank that 20000 in $10 membership buys means anything to the party that gets tens of millions annually from corporations. Besides 20000 progressive memberships would end Gordo's rule for certain. Well worth the money.

Good discussion

The earth is finite. With global warming, and dwindling resources, we know that we must, therefore, tread lightly and share our planet's resources in measured ways. Hoarding by the wealthy and the power-mongers depletes our planet's resources faster than need be. Politicians like Campbell cater to like-minded, narcissistic power-hungry hoarders. Campbellites cause our planet's resources (which includes living things) to be consumed by us at ever faster rates. When I think of North American and European political movement since Nixon gained power and our having Campbell running our government for a "golden decade", the irony of Warhol's soup cans is almost unbearably sadly surreal.

I admire and tend to agree with the kootenays of the Tyee: to do nothing makes one complicit in the demise of our province, our country, our continent and our world. I wish I had the heart to be continually optimistic. I would be able to recognize that what coyoteman says is happening could be the way of the future - if we do not change. In my darker moments, I give into believing that coyoteman's words are true, and my grandchildren are doomed to chaos because our species, with all of its analytical intellect and all of its data storage and sorting capacity, allows for selfish, "damaged" people, like Gordon Campbell to destroy this beautiful world.

I was hopeful that Barack Obama would represent a “movement”; kind-minded others would rise to the occasion and that the neocons were done. In my darker moments, I fear that Obama may be just another Jimmy Carter - a truly brilliant and good leader that gets politically assassinated by the true ruling class of the planet - the uberwealthy hoarders. Rather than follow the US voters' lead and elect a government that cares for its citizens and the planet, Germany has just elected a conservative government. With all of the dirt upon him, Harper leads in Canada’s polls!

Perhaps coyoteman is right: the time is drawing nigh that we will fall under the crush of our own self-destructive choices. Perhaps it will mean the end of humans; perhaps human population will enter a bit of a trough where our numbers are drastically reduced. One thing is for certain we cannot maintain our current rate of consumption of the planet’s resources. Yet, Earth will survive humans; living creatures of some sort will evolve and repopulate the planet again, repeating the cycle as has been the case for past eras. The cycle of life in the pulsating universe will continue long past our human capacity to measure and divide it in our myopic ways.

Seth

"Both Frank and Skywalker loving the BS, know full well it wasn't liberals who put in Gordon Campbell"

Seth, the Liberal party of BC is mainly a home for federal Conservatives. Most federal Liberals vote NDP provincially. Even Liberals like Wilf and Luke have admitted that in the past.

So given that reality what makes you think a few Dippers can join that party and elect a new left-wing Liberal leader as you put it?

There is no way in hell that could happen any more than a bunch of Reformers could join the NDP and replace Carole James with realisticman.

Your idea was fun to read at first but you're flogging a dead horse. And even if you somehow could pull off this incredible turn of events while everyone's back was turned you'd still have to face an election. And your left-wing Liberal leader wouldn't win a seat.

"D'ya thunk Frank that 20000 in $10 membership buys means anything to the party that gets tens of millions annually from corporations."

I know the NDP needs that money a lot more than the Liberals do and starving the NDP to feed the corporate party makes no sense to me.

"Besides 20000 progressive memberships would end Gordo's rule for certain. Well worth the money."

In a short amount of time he would be replaced by someone to the Right of Wilf Hanni.

coyoteman

I think your key plank is the belief that people will get a big dose of right-wing governance and will look for something new.

Years ago I said the same thing in regards to BC.

The thing is, you're expecting revolutionary change whereas my expectation was that Campbell was and is too right-wing for most people and therefore there would be a swing of the pendulum back towards the centre-left.

The reason is that the NDP exists, people have an idea of what they're getting. The NDP may not be as left-wing as you'd like but people are generally used to them and their election falls within the comfort-zone of most BCers. (and I don't mean Reformers like the NDP, I just mean they may say its the end of the world but in reality they expect their day to day life to be the same).

Regardless of what the politics are on any given day the NDP's job is to be as left-wing as possible while still being relevant and electable.

People are going to be more willing to accept left-wing policies if there's a party that they're used to talking about them. In other words people will accept incremental change but not revolutionary change. I would say the proof of that is in the fact that the NDP has been elected at least once in 5 provinces whereas further-left parties have never been elected at all.

Like it or not, most people want their governments to change democratically and in between elections want people to obey the law.

SharingIsGood

You are an insightful and thoughtful person, SharingIsGood. But my own thinking is not quite as negative as I might even sound, or yourself interpret.

I think we, and society, are in an extremely difficult and fraught with danger period, but I am optimistic that humanity, even our own citizens in Canada, are going to find the way out of what you describe. I have to be optomistic, otherwise, what really is the point? :-)

But we are, first going to have to overcome some illusions we have, I think, about most of our present economic and political institutions, starting with most if not all the current parties to capitalism, and ways of thinking. And its this process that is already proving to be extremely bumpy, and is likely to get worse. But it is such trials that are the best, even likely essential educators of the masses as well.

Humanity has a long history however, and that we have got to here is a testimony to our resilience and capacity to adapt in the end, when it's understood widely that we have no other alternative. We shall have to see what evolves over the coming period.

Though it is hard sometimes, and I understand that, I am essentially optimistic... even if at my age, it is likely that I'm not going to be around to see it. Nobody said life was going to be fair. :-)

Gordon Campbell

It never fails to amaze me that when Premiers' are in office too long they seem to rise to the unofficial office of `King' as in King Gordon , thy bounty is full and rhetoric empty.

Seth

You are in denial. Give it up,man, you sound like a PAB poseur.
Today the City of Vancouver announced it's debt load to date. Campbell will stand on the podium then leave.
With 6 billion in debt (according to the Vancouver Sun) so far for the BIC EVENT and TRANSLINK greedily lurking at the trough for MORE MORE MORE, the noise will not be all cheers.
The Dalai Lama arrived at the airport. Campbell was not there to greet him. That is his job. That is what he is paid to do. The GG failed to show up to welcome him. She is the Queen's representative. This is her job. That is what she is paid to do. Are these two so worried about offending China that they have lost their minds? At the Aboriginal Celebration at Robson
Square Sunday I asked an elder if Campbell had shown up. He said "No, they sent some younger guy. We didn't know who he was. Campbell is hiding."
Campbell has been stomping around the leg blaming the media for his troubles. As one commentator e-mailed me "When a control freak loses control, he anger angry." Watch for more temper tantrums is he bothers to show up next week. Cheers.

Frank....

I know where you are coming from, brother. I even bought into it at one time; the rationale that one had to in some way "sneak" into power with a minimalist "progressive" programme. At the height of the Prosperity Period and the anti-communist hysteria of the Cold War, it made sense and there was little alternative.

I think that time and the rationale that underpinned that analysis has in large part passed, and is passing. The Prosperity Period is in the toilet, along with the illusions it fostered, about the changed character of capitalism. Snd with the rise of the more extreme right that is underway, conditions are destined to be created that are more favourable for a more "serious" and "overtly" left, even "transformative" analysis and programme of action to move society away from capitalism.

But one of the things that first has to occur here soon, is the illusion of sneaking into power with a modest left programme that is at the heart of social democracy, is any kind of satisfactory solution at all. It is not. It will, as it has, always produce a result that changes essentially nothing, and is quite acceptable to the ruling class and its order, and "stucks" society further into capitalism.

Time to begin the process of breaking away, from the system, and from those ideas on the left that have been co-opted by it. The vanguard concept is dead. There needs to be a new politik, fundamentally anti-capitalist begin to emerge out of the lower class grassroots.

The future will have to be left to demonstrate which one of us is correct here. And I accept that.

coyoteman

I'm not talking about "sneaking into power".

I know you're old enough to remember Wacky Bennett's 20 years. Well, he didn't win all those elections because he was the greatest premier since sliced bread, he won because a lot of people seriously believed the NDP were the equivalent of Russian Bolsheviks and would collectivize farms and so on. Back then the NDP were considered "scary".

Nobody thinks that anymore, the worst they come up with nowadays is complaining about the fast ferries and Carole James. They're still seen as left-wing, by the mainstream, but not "scary Left".

I think the NDP is as left-wing as they can be and still be electable.

As to your other point about the looming crisis and what it means etc. People could turn to the Left that's true, but looking at the way Europe is going I'd be more concerned about it going fascist.

Germany, Italy, France and I imagine soon Britain and maybe even Spain will all be right-wing in spite of the knocks that capitalism has undergone. Why people asked for more of the same in the wake of the present crisis is beyond me but it doesn't look good for the Left.

The left - right fault line...

"...but looking at the way Europe is going I'd be more concerned about it going fascist."

We are much agreed and disagreed. :-)

In the short term, for sure, fascism is of a much greater danger. Which is precisely why the fault line between left and right has to be sharpened, in my view. There needs to be a clear and absolute distinguishment, not the blurring of the line between left and right that the NDP and the rest of the muddy centre represents... not any longer.

The risk of fascism is growing however, I very much agree. Which is precisely why we need that socially and economically revolutionary left.

Frank and Coyoteman

First of all, I'd like to thank Coyote and Franks for clarifying their thoughts. They are very capable writers. I always love to learn from them.

It reads to me like the ole' trickster believes: "incremental change is no change at all" and we will need to have a bit of revolution (in thinking and politick - if not Mao's point of a gun). If I got it right, I believe Coyoteman thinks we need the far right-wing inequities to continue a while longer so that a counter-balancing grass roots critical mass can develop within the disenfranchised.

It sounds to me that incremental change is what Frank perceives will be the only change we are likely to get. Remembering his past writings, I believe that Frank believes that BC is a small "c" conservative place that only harkens to the right or the left of the current status quo when a viable small c conservative alternative is not presented to the electorate. The NDP only wins when the vote on the right is split or is in turmoil due to corruption. In recent decades, the NDP takes up the position of being just slightly left of whatever Socred/BC Liberal/Reform government is currently in power or has been trying to ascend to power).

Big Business (of which Big Media is a big part) has done a fantastic job of continually painting the previous NDP as inept when, in fact, they proved to be very careful managers of the province's resources at a time the Feds downloaded health-care while the province was also reeling from the Asian Banking Crisis and the collapse of the Yen. The NDP were handed a huge deficit and there was no way to deal with it except to borrow, unless they wanted to have an angry province full of hungry, unemployed people.

The BC Liberals, on the other hand, were handed a province that was in good economic shape; they squandered the largess on the already rich and on giving away more to International Corporations. It is beyond me how the people of BC have not been able to see this happening and have voted Campbell Inc. in to run things for a 3rd term.

When the Coyoteman and Frank speak of fascism, I must say that in my view, we are but an election away from it if Harper ever gets his majority. Just imagine a Gordon Campbell BC and a Steven Harper Canada!! Luckily we’ve had a Canadian Court that generally upholds Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms - flawed though it may be toward the rights of individuals (which includes the invented persons of which foreign corporate individuals are a part) over the rights of communities. If Harper gets in, look for legislation that gives even greater rights to corporations than individual people – even though they already enjoy more power due to the capital they hold and the lawyers they can hire to tie up litigation for years.

Sharing, et al

It is lefties talking about fascism that causes the left to stay way out of power. As Frank points out many countries in Europe have elected more conservative governments as Germany just did and Britain may well follow. The social safety nets are still in place and life is reasonably good for most people, so when they hear the constant negativity and prophets of doom and gloom from the left they are turned off. Apathy and low voter turnouts ensue. The idea that things are bad is like any philosophy. It's just an idea because by any measure things are pretty damn good and when compared to anywhere else, things in Canada and especially BC are bloody good.

Relentless negativity is so boring.

Perhaps some of the far left

Perhaps some of the far left posters here should set up their own BC version of the re-elected German conservative CDU.

Any takers?!

realisticman

Realisticman stated: "The social safety nets are still in place and life is reasonably good for most people."

Realisticman, when I read your writing, I wonder if you have school-aged children with any disabilities or special needs. The cutbacks in public school funding has led to reduced service because more is expected with less. I wonder if you have infirm parents who count on the medicare system to provide a clean place for them to live. I wonder if you have university-aged children that may be attempting to pay their way through UBC with $10 an hour jobs and student loans. The average bachelor's degree candidate from BC universities has that student graduating with a $35,000 loan to repay. The social safety nets are fraying, developing holes; and user pay and HST tax systems are unfair to many people in need.

I'm a professional, who works with a broad range of people. Many of the people whose needs were being met 10 years ago are no longer having their needs met. I am seeing more violence, drug addiction and physical pain being experienced by an ever-growing number of people. My colleagues in other jurisdictions are seeing the same thing. You may walk around in a make-believe rose-coloured designer glasses kind of world, R-man, but mine is a world based in reality. With the highest child poverty in Canada for many years in a row (what is it 6, 7?), the highest cost of housing and the lowest minimum wage, life in BC is getting worse for a good number of people - not better. Campbell Inc. caters to the wealthy and Big Business; Campbell Inc. barely tollerates its own citizenry.

For someone who calls himself Realisticman, you aren't being very realistic. There is nothing unrealistic about calling something what it is. Campbell is a rightwing extremist, wannabe dictator, who refuses to answer questions in the Legislature presented by the Official Opposition during Question Period. Campbell and the BC Liberals are a law unto themselves; they answer to no-one. They are so far to the right, if they are permitted to go any further, we will have a defacto fascist state. There is nothing negative in those words, R-man.

realisticman

"It is lefties talking about fascism that causes the left to stay way out of power."

No it isn't. No one reads it or cares to. If you have some proof to the contrary by all means bring it forward.

realisticman

"Relentless negativity is so boring."

No one has ever been more negative than right-wingers in the 1990s. It was pretty hard to take during the 1990s what with you guys on the Right complaining 24/7 about the state of the province.

Funnily enough now you say everything is wine and roses in spite of the province having done better under in the NDP in the 1990s.

Hope for the BC Liberal Party???

"But there is hope for the BC Liberal Party."

The Liberal Party is rotten to the core in my opinion Rafe.
Is there an incoruptible politician left in the land?

I can't help becoming more 'n' more cynical the longer this band of thugs 'n' thieves form government.

Frank

This is interesting and to the point.

http://atlanticreview.org/archives/1223-Lessons-for-Europes-Social-Democrats-from-the-Obama-Campaign.html

quote:
"...What impresses Perger is the ability of the Obama campaign to form a broad-based "coalition of the willing" consisting of organized labor, minorities, college students, highly educated professionals. What holds this coalition together, Perger asserts, is a strategy of "good populism": a positive vision of the future that taps into the American Dream, the principles of fairness, equality, and prosperity through hard work. He contrasts this with the negative populism we see in Europe with the divisive rhetoric of the left-wing parties and the right-wing populism of cynicism and white resentment we witnessed at the McCain-Palin campaign rallies. ..."

realisticman

Well... the thing is Obama didn't win by much and since the election he has been unable to get anything passed because his "coalition of the willing" isn't willing to support bad policies.

But to look at things more abstractly I will say yes, its much more likely people will vote for "don't worry be happy" versus "things are screwed".

Now in previous posts you have said that yours is not a tactic, you really believe that everything in Canada and BC is wonderful (in spite of the 1990's being better). To me being an ostrich may be a good sell but I find it hard not to be realistic.

When the soon-to-be-Liberal-MLA launched a court case against the Clark gov't over being a few million in deficit did you think to yourself "why is he being so negative?"

After all, the Left hasn't launched one against Campbell in spite of their deficit dwarfing the NDP's.

So don't compare the rhetoric of a group out of power with the rhetoric of a group in power. Instead compare apples to apples. Were the right-wing more negative about the NDP in the 1990s than the Left has been about the Liberals since 2001?

In my view the right-wingers were way more negative in the 1990's than we've been.

And...

And even though the Libs are now in power they, and their supporters, are still extremely negative about the NDP 90's. Again, in spite of the stats.

Also, I seem to recall you yourself referring to Layton as "Taliban Jack". Whereas I never call Campbell anything except "Mr Premier", "our man in Victoria", "dear leader" ... etc.

Of course you haven't called him "Taliban Jack" ever since Harper adopted his view.

Frank

It's not "don't worry be happy" but, what I quoted above, "principles of fairness, equality, and prosperity through hard work.", as opposed to the constant cries for nationalizations, elimination of capitalism and Robbin Hoodism - which is simply seen as tiresome and resembling the child that is crying and pointing to another who has something he wants. People today want competition in the marketplace because it offers them choice, and capitalism, while in its unfettered form has been demonstrated to be potentially disastrous, offers them opportunity, freedom and plenty as opposed to the recently abandoned socialism of the USSR.

A different paradigm to the eager 60's exists now. Then there was Vietnam and the idea that bombing civilians would stop an ideology, even as it cost the lives of boomer boys, became seriously conflicted with the simultaneous growth of rock music, radical fashion change, sexual freedom, etc. At that time the huge international flock of counter-culture boomers had to congregate to share their experiences, since this was before the age of blogs and the 'net. Gatherings took place in cafés, music stores and venues, clothing shops, bookshops, parks, small movie theatres, etc. There were exchanges of information and discussions about what concerned and interested each other and, most importantly, there was at least a belief that a general consciousness was shared. The music, film and writings of the time bought it all together. People would demonstrate in San Francisco or London and there was a fairly certain conviction that each was thinking the same as the other. That was the 'left' then. Today the gatherings of the young do not have the same imperative because the boomers have given them decades, in the west, without the requirement to go to war. They have given them freedoms of choice in so many areas and so many toys that they don't have any tangible issue to become excited about, except perhaps the environment which seems to be the only really big issue that crosses international borders.

One can understand that some left wing commentators seemed to be relishing the possible collapse of the international financial system. This would have provided them with a great opportunity to call for socialism in capital letters. Maybe soon. Until then the majority are content with the status quo.

Politics in this free world is partly comedy for some of those who revel in it and this is distinctly apparent, as well as encouraged by some, in the local scene. Sometimes it is a struggle to make colourful some characters that are distinctly challenged in that area.

realisticman

"which is simply seen as tiresome and resembling the child that is crying and pointing to another who has something he wants."

A rather shrill and negative summation of Leftee thoughts I think. Especially since the European Right has accepted what you diminish. Merkel and Sarkozy have not ripped apart the European welfare state which you seem to find so odious.

So, that brings us back to square one. Which is, why is the Left failing politically in Europe since they are the authors of the policies that Europeans want. The new German government coalition will no longer include social democrats, how right-wing will it go?

In the case of Italy (and Canada) its obvious why the Right does so well, the leader owns all the media. France and Germany are different cases.

"but, what I quoted above, "principles of fairness, equality, and prosperity through hard work.","

This quote was about Obama and the Democrats, not the American right-wing. In other words its the American left that that quote was about and why the American left has successfully taken over control of government.

"One can understand that some left wing commentators seemed to be relishing the possible collapse of the international financial system."

I think most on the Left are upset more about the fact that the lower classes bailed out fat capitalists.

"Europe's Socialists

"Europe's Socialists Suffering Even in Downturn"

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/29/world/europe/29socialism.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper

and
Thomas Friedman column on how there's no "we" anymore in US politics

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/30/opinion/30friedman.html?_r=1&ref=opinion

blather without knowledge.

Obviously, Frank knows nothing about how political parties are run. Have you ever been a party executive, a delegate.You ever watched a hijack as it happens. No didn't think so.

"Most federal liberals vote NDP" You are really wack my friend if you believe that. An Iggy fan voting for Carole James Hmm. Quoting Wilf and Luke as authorities is really rich coming from you who disagrees with everything those two come up with.

You heard of Chuck Cadman and wife, Lynn Stevens, Joe Clark, Gordon Wilson, Stephen Harper, Val Meridith. Ask them how hijacks work.

Right now there are so few active members in the BCLiberal party that any determined group selling memberships could take over. Our constituency with a sitting BCLiberal MLA has trouble getting a quorum most meetings.

By leftie leader, Gregor Robertson might fit the ticket, not Karl Marx. In any case the only election the new leader needs to win is at a convention at least for the next four years.

The NDP is out of the picture for the next four years and any money sent their way is an utter waste.

A party hijack requires a hell of lot less manpower than a recall campaign.

Seth

You'll want to include Vaughn Palmer in your list of people that are "wacked".

From Vaughn's column today (I certainly didn't have to dig very far) :

"Federal Liberals are trying to avoid the backlash against the provincial party that shares their name but not their structure, policies or even (despite overlaps) membership and supporters."

And as I said, even Luke Skywalker, who loved polls, said himself that polling and voting records showed conclusively that federal Liberals voted NDP by a ratio of 4:1 provincially. I guess Luke is "wacked" too?

Safe to say that if you vote Liberal in BC you're voting for the same party the supporters of Stephen Harper vote for.

I will say one thing, your attempt to get NDPers to support a right-wing party is at least a novel one.

Dreams of a future that never was

Werner Perger's little encomium on Barack Obama as savior was written about a year ago...and it shows.

Obama's 'coalition of the willing' is getting a little threadbare at this stage of the game - one wonders what Perger would think now of a president who has made an under the table deal with both insurance and drug companies that gives the 'creators' of the medical insurance crisis in the States a get out of jail free card

Instead of responding to the racists and white nationalists who are attacking the need for a real PUBLIC option, Obama seems paralyzed.

He doesn't even have the jam to defend his appointees against racist clods like Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh.

Some consensus!
What’s needed in the US now is an 8 million person march on Washington to point out to the White House that it was young people and progressives who elected him – not hoary time servers in Congress and the Senate….

more nonsensec

Why Frank I'm really trying to see what Vaughn Palmer's comment or even your new authority the now deceased Luke has to do with the number of liberals in the BCLiberal party. I guess that is the type of reasoning that lead to the utter botch the NDP made of their campaign.

In my local constituency, there are no federal liberal party members in the provincial NDP riding association and I doubt you'd find more than a handful any province wide. There are however buckets of them in the BCLiberal ridings associations. And it is association members we are talking about here.

The Socreds who hijacked Gordon Wilson's Liberal Party has always been a home for both liberal and conservative thinkers. Its just that as with the federal conservative and us republicans, the Neocons have seized control.

If NDPers join the BCLiberal party it will no longer be right wing now would it. Just as Joe Clark's federal conservatives after David Orchard's attempted hijack was no longer Conservative.

Politics 101 my friend. You need to start reading.

Seth

Okay, I'll accept your premise that Palmer, Luke and I know nothing about polls and elections and instead defer to you. How many federal Liberals are in the BC Liberals Seth?

Apparently you seem to believe, "lots". But I'd prefer actual data. Can you give me an actual number?

"In my local constituency, there are no federal liberal party members in the provincial NDP riding association and I doubt you'd find more than a handful any province wide"

And yet the NDP only gets around 25% in BC in federal elections yet around 40% provincially. I guess there must be 150,000+ NDPers who only move here for federal elections.

Anyway, so how come all those federal Liberals that exist in the provincial party can't just take back their own party? After all, according to the 2006 federal election there are as many of your "real Liberals" in this province as there are "socialists". Seems to me that you don't need those of us on the Left that you have such disdain for.

"I guess that is the type of reasoning that lead to the utter botch the NDP made of their campaign."

Oh! A zinger! I wasn't going to help you before but I'm sure I will help you now what with all the love you show.

Personally Seth

I number of us NDPers, guys like Frank and me who've been 'real' socialists from the get-go back on the prairies (and that's not so-ooooooo long ago by the way) were pretty happy with the campaign the party ran this election...

Remind me, how far down the popularity ladder were we when the campaign started?

And yet, at the end:

Less than 5000 more votes in a few specific ridings and it would be Premier James right now.

So, this myth you keep spinning about the 'utter' botch the party made of the campaign, I think it's pretty much a load of crap.

When you consider how much (money) the party had to work with, the size of Campbell's war chest and the utter mythology that we have an 'impartial' press in BC...well, maybe you can understand why I don't think you know enough about political realities to even have made up the prerequisites for taking Poli Sci 100...

One other small, but not trivial point, there is something to be said for letting Campbell and his neocon enablers stew in their own juice for a while...I'm sorry the 'people' they ought to be serving have to suffer but, in the end, the CEO deserves to be ridden out of town on a rail and I think it's very likely that's exactly what's going to happen to him and his neoliberal colleagues...

You might be comfortable with a BC Liberal membership card in your pocket…not me. As far as I’m concerned you should ‘go’ for it though – I think you’d fit right in. We won’t miss you!

Luke

Welcome Luke. In the spirit of your return I'd like to point out your calculator is broken :-)

"That is, the federal NDP receives 26% of the BC vote in 2008 but the provincial NDP receives another 40% above that count to achieve 42%. Simple math, that is."

Type 26 * 1.4 into your calculator. It doesn't come out to 42. You may want to try 60% instead of 40%.

Germany- hasty conclusions from little evidence & less knowledge

In Germany, contrary to most of the coverage here, both mainstream parties lost significantly in the election, partly due to a lack of polarization in their campaign when two senior members of the government (Chancellor Merkel and Foreign Minister Steinmeier) were running against one another.

The shift towards the smaller parties (none of which scored more than 10 percent in 2005) also shows up a structural problem of the mainstream parties. Both Merkel and Steinmeier need to realize that every vote needs to be worked for; this is a challenge to parties that try to cover all issues simultaneously. At the same time, smaller parties benefit from the way they’ve addressed niche and special interest issues. FDP – the biggest gainers in this election are little more than a pro-business rump while Greens attract environmentally conscious citizens, and followers of the Left are attracted by the party's calls for redistribution.

Demographics too are important: Germany consists of mainly older voters while the smaller parties seem to be especially attractive to young people. In the group of under 30 year olds the FDP drew level with the SPD. This change in the population profile assists single-issue parties who address only issues that are important for young people. Internet regulation and copyright for example. In fact, the Pirate Party won two percent of the vote by mobilizing young voters with just these topics.

Like the NDP, the SPD hasn’t reinvented itself to attract voters who have moved to the Greens or the Left. A few years in opposition will do the Left a lot of good as Merkel and her neocon allies continue to mess with a social situation that, at bottom, most Germans are pretty fond of.

I so agree with you, Rafe,

I so agree with you, Rafe, but if we want to get him out we'll need someone like you to lead a party we can trust. Carol James is trying hard but she doesn't have the confidence of the people to do a better job than Gordon Campbell. People would follow you where they won't follow Carol. I bet they'd even follow you into the Liberal Party if you decided to go there.

I don't understand why Campbell's so insistent on cooking his goose. He started off well but is it just plain greed? Don't know but he sure is losing it/us.