STANDING UP PLUS VOTING AT ELECTION TIME

BEEN SAYING IT FOR YEARS NOW,
PEOPLE IN BC AND REST OF CANADA TAKE THE VOTE AND FREEDOM FOR GRANTED.

ALWAYS HOPING THAT SOMEONE ELSE WILL GO VOTE AND CHANGE WILL HAPPEN ON ITS' OWN.

GET REAL PEOPLE. YOU WHITE HAIRS CONTROL THE VOTE AND CAN'T SEE IT YET.

PC CONS RUNNING CHANGES THRU ASAP BEFORE WHITE HAIRS WAKE UP.

YOUNG PEOPLE FIGHT FOR THE AGE 16 VOTE. IT AFFECTS YOU TOO.

LOOK AT ALL THE YOUNG PEOPLE OUT OF WORK AND IN DEBT.

CAN YOU BELIEVE YOU HAVE NO FUTURE UNLESS YOU CHANGE THE SYSTEM.

GET OUT AND VOTE AND PROVE THAT 75% OF BC IS STUPID AND IGNORANT JUST AINT TRUE.

WE NEED A REVOLUTION THOUGHT TO GET OUT AND VOTE.

BY-ELECTION COMING UP, CHEK IT OUT.

WHATS IT GONNA TAKE TO SEE YOU HAVE THE POWER, NOT THE 1%.

IF YOU WAIT UNTIL THE 1% CHANGES ALL THE LAWS TO THEIR FAVOUR, FOR THE 99% IT IS TOO TOOO LATE.

Skywalker

We lost control of our democracy the day borders started to be meaningless. When we allowed corporations to move capital across borders without any regard for the people, this started.

It's far more perverse than that, and it started long before 'corporations moving capital' became fashionable.

Clearly non-democratic or totalitarian acts can be highly localized and performed by individuals. Slavery is one such form, where one's work is usurped by another. Here one man is convinced it is in his best interest to accept the arrangement. That is the politics of one man over another.

And THAT is politics at large -- the marketing of ideas to convince the masses to accept a certain form of slavery in exchange for real and fraudulent benefits.

If one does not understand this simple truth, they are bound to make all sorts of broad and absurd assertions like the necessity of voting simply because it is offered. At certain times, I can only wonder if they have any idea what they are voting for?

Ummm, Granville

The right to vote is democracy, not the actual vote itself. Calm down.

symptoms...

'Not voting' ought be characterized as a symptom, not the cause of democratic woes. Also in the same way that 'voting' can be characterized as a symptom if that is the sum total of a citizen's engagement. The cause is, simplistically stated : "Elections ARE about putting the least obnoxious assholes into office."

I will use another simplistic analogy here to better show what I mean: what do you do if you have a problem with your neighbour? The odds are good that you go and talk to your neighbour, and if you have a little smarts and a few manners, I doubt you will go over and bluster to your neighbour about your side of the story, and how you can make things better, and how s/he ought to change, because that is not likely to work. It does not work when politicians do it, either. Some continue to vote for the least obnoxious assholes, and others set about figuring out something better, and still others opt out.

We live in a deeply dysfuntional culture, on a earth whose oceans and forests and hundreds of species are dying. More of the same will not change this: no political party in existence currently will change this. Only the will of a substantial number of people will begin to change this...

I have many ideas about where to start, and so do other comitted, engaged people. So I will choose just one idea: Integrity BC has a petition available for signing that asks for the funding of politicians and political parties to be radically changed. It is not likely any politician will pay attention to it unless it gets very large, but the point is that their ideas for funding reform could radically change who might be enabled to run for office. And the further point is that if you were to choose one way to engage in politics, this or any one of a dozen other initiatives might be just as, or more effective than merely voting.

The change we wish to bring about is nothing short of cultural change, and if we are serious about democracy we will go much further than the ballot box. Ultimately, talking in a respectful way about our problems to our friends, family, neighbours and community may be the most effective change force. As I have said so many times, let's stop haranguing people for being sheep, or not voting, or watching television and patiently point out ways to make a difference.

I vote

It is a statement of what I think of the choices there. One year I voted for Rupert Beebe whose statement read: "Harness the winds and Tides".
Voted for the Rhinos once or twice if they made me chuckle.
Vivian makes a good point or two.
This recent post by George Monbiot got my vote too:
http://www.monbiot.com/2012/02/06/liberal-constipation/

I'd like to vote

But I've yet to discover a party that truly represents the people. I've yet to hear of a party campaigning on a platform to change the entire corrupted system of governing BC.

The entire Western world has been highjacked by the elite (happened long ago unfortunately) and there's no stopping them now. I may be 'scum' or whatever you want to call me. I'm really just a realist, and from my eyes, participating in democracy once every five years isn't worth the gas it costs me to drive to the polling station.

The only solution I see as viable isn't one I can speak of at the moment.

I'd like to vote

But I've yet to discover a party that truly represents the people. I've yet to hear of a party campaigning on a platform to change the entire corrupted system of governing BC.

The entire Western world has been highjacked by the elite (happened long ago unfortunately) and there's no stopping them now. I may be 'scum' or whatever you want to call me. I'm really just a realist, and from my eyes, participating in democracy once every five years isn't worth the gas it costs me to drive to the polling station.

The only solution I see as viable isn't one I can speak of at the moment.

Langley and others

If none of us on the Left participated in elections I'm pretty sure you'd notice a difference in your society.

Hate Harper and Campbell?

How about 50 straight years of Harper and Campbell and people even more right-wing than them, with no opposition voice at all, think that just might be worse?

If no one on the Left voted Harper and Campbell would be considered to be "the Left" and the right-wingers would elect even more odious governments.

Frank

If none of us on the Left participated in elections I'm pretty sure you'd notice a difference in your society

On the Left of what, Frank?

Canada's so-called Left has simply prolonged the crimes of state so we suffer death by a thousand cuts. But maybe that is all it can do. It's just too bad that after all these years, the so-called Left still doesn't see its complicity.

Here are a few words spoken just after the Bank of Canada was formed:

Once a nation parts with the control of its currency and credit, it matters not who makes the nations laws. Usury, once in control, will wreck any nation. Until the control of the issue of currency and credit is restored to government and recognized as its most conspicuous and sacred responsibility, all talks of the sovereignty of Parliament and of democracy is idle and futile.

~ William Lyon Mackenzie King, tenth and longest serving PM of Canada

We have now gone three generations since that time. What's changed? King's understanding has been lost, buried by the post-war boom and propaganda. In the interim, the so-called Left has been begging its overlord for healthcare, state propaganda schooling for all, etc.

The disconnect between the problem Canadians face systemically and the course of action we've taken by begging for clemency from our economic rapists is such a perversion of thought, it really does repel the mind.

There is no conspiracy going on. It is not the neoconservatives versus the social democrats, though that narrative does have some weight regarding our immediate suffering within our restricted geography.

But the 2100+ year war of a sovereignty representing the people versus private wealth remains. And on this point, Canada's so-called Left remains eerily mute.

igbymac

So you'll appreciate Kreidenstadt's politics more than Harper's?

When the Right wins uncontested elections generation after generation and goes so far to the Right that they call people like Harper a communist are you gonna declare that you've won the argument that elections don't matter?

Is that the endgame? To have the Left boycott elections until the country is so right-wing we can't even imagine what it would look like from here?

If you guys think politics in this country can't get any worse I think you'll be in for a surprise, assuming you can talk those of us on the Left who do vote to stop.

I hear you, Frank

When I left high school I thought voting was a worthy and important endeavour.

After a few elections, some life and some learning, I determined there was nobody on the stage being offered whom represented my views. At that point I decided to cast a strategic vote of dissent (Green since 1986 or thereabouts less two occasions). That carried on for 20+ years.

Over that time, the 'shift' in our federal and provincial politics (which I now understand is cosmetic and not directional) coupled with my full-time scholarship in related fields, I came to be vividly aware we did not live in any sort of democracy at all.
Further, if we ever hoped of having a democracy, it would never be awarded through the machinations of a ballot box and a gamed economic and political system.

Ultimately, voting at the federal and provincial scene is simply contrary to the substantive and ethical/moral change I desire.

Of course your mileage may vary.

But I will say this, you might want to consider why you have been repeatedly told of the importance of voting since grade school on; and its corollary, we live in a democracy.

igbymac

I had the opposite experience. When I was fresh out of school I didn't vote and thought I was bein smart.

But eventually I realized that not voting does nothing for me and in fact means I've given up.

Things can get worse, this is not as bad as it can get. Universal heathcare can be taken away. So can welfare. All roads can be tolled. etc

Frank

...and maybe that is what it is going to take to wake Canadians up, though fighting the compulsory school system of social conditioning is gonna be an ongoing obstacle.

Evidently Canadians are completely ignorant about how they are being held at gun point to turn over their autonomy, their minds, their creativity and their labour.

igbymac

It won't wake people up. It'll just get worse. People will be bombarded with the Right's media and government and will be brainwashed to believe there is no alternative.

The existence and support of a party like the NDP keeps issues on the table that would otherwise be ignored and prevents the Right from moving mainstream opinion to the extreme.

If people who vote for non-conservative parties quit voting their issues would be lost.

For example

Here in BC, if the NDP ceased to exist then the political middle would be between Christy and Cummins. Christy Clark would become "the Left" in BC and all issues to the left of her such as child poverty and universal healthcare, would be taken off the table.

Frank

Your arguments show precisely why the left/right analogies should not be used when describing politicians simply because they are highly subjective. As well as that the comparisons are not linear and by linear I mean the distance from the "centre" keeps increasing. In fact it doesn't because everything is circular to the point that it becomes difficult, if not impossible, to tell the difference between the extremes. State interference becomes overwhelming.

snert

I use Left and Right simply as shorthand and assume the reader understands the context as every political situation will have different Left and Rights.

Something I've argued with both Luke and Ed Deak about. In Luke's case he thinks the Left is monolithic and every left-wing party from BC to Manitoba to East Germany must therefore have the same policies. That's ludicrous, after all the hard-line communists in the Soviet Union were called the Right back then and the Left was the liberalizers like Gorby and Yeltsin.

Ed has said there is no Left and Right, its Top versus Bottom, like a thermometer. In some ways he's right but only as it applies to specific situations. If the NDP is in power in BC then would that make them the top?

Hitler adopted full employment policies and pursued policies that increased equality of opportunity and the standard of living of workers. Yet he jailed communists and socialists. So was he Right or Left of the BC Liberals? Was Otto von Bismarck a Lefty for introduing pensions? Am I a right-winger because igbymac thinks the NDP is a right-wing party?

Pretty easy to tie the Left-Right thing in knots, but I just find it easy to use and assume everyone knows the context.

Frank; Left-Right politics

The existence and support of a party like the NDP keeps issues on the table that would otherwise be ignored and prevents the Right from moving mainstream opinion to the extreme.

The problem, Frank, is that nobody in the NDP (or any Party) addresses the critical issues that make our nation a failing capitalist project.

As for the Left-Right, there are numerous models available. I don't think any of them are comprehensive. The one I use is two-dimensional, so out of the gate it is flawed.

Regardless, it is circular like the equator. From either the right(private) or left(state), the extreme positions merge around back and are both fascist. As you back away from these points, you eventually reconnect together in front. Here is an ideal balance of state and private control.

From this perspective, it becomes clear that within our system where private wealth directs matters, we are on the right-hand branch of this balance point.

Roughly speaking, this balance point is when the state has full sovereignty and enforces the 'social contract' for the benefit of all people, while the private sector has the freedom to pursue its own ambitions.

igbymac

igbymac : "The problem, Frank, is that nobody in the NDP (or any Party) addresses the critical issues that make our nation a failing capitalist project."

Assuming you mean the way debt is created or ownership of private property etc, you're right. The party that would put those issues on the table doesn't exist and therefore those issues aren't even discussed.

My point is that there's lots of other issues the NDP AND its supporters do defend and because of the existence of those supporters those issues are discussed by much of the population.

I too would like the NDP to move further to the Left but not if it means losing supporters.

Frank

I wonder how many people would support the NDP if they actually told the truth about the fractional reserve fraud; the fictional creation of money as debt out of thin air, not by a peoples' sovereign government but by private banks; the use of warfare to compel the economic machine forward for the benefit of its profiteers, all at the expense of innocent bystanders being continually coerced by state; and the use of our mandatory public school systems being designed to stop creativity and free thinking, and to delay natural adulthood for a decade or more so that the social engineering project (ironically the one the NDP says needs saving) has a very obedient, categorized and docile-thinking work force?

We are like penned chickens from birth. After a few months, the chickens won't leave their pens when given the opportunity, even if you try to shoo them out. They don't recognize the are captive. They simply do not know what to do with the freedom available right before their eyes.

Look, its abundantly clear why the NDP doesn't move Left toward reality. The pen is wide open, but the assault of our culture, namely our social conditioning, has left us incapable of seeing it even when encouraged.

Who can create and then loan out something they do not own or possess on the exchange of promises, and then demand its return plus much more (ie, interest)? And this 'free market deal' is very much enforceable at law. For everyone but bankers, its called fraud, extortion, and theft. But there you have it - banking and money 101.

In all seriousness and with gentleness, are you beginning to see the 'gun in the room' yet, Frank?

igbymac

You want to raise people's awareness of the condition of society, hold a mirror up to it so that they can see the problems. Once they see, they will understand and then act.

And you're right, there's lots of problems that don't get discussed, which should be discussed but are ignored. And strangely, people in the past seemed more open to these sorts of discussions.

Now why is that? My opinion is that there used to be a lot less conformity and people were better educated about their system. Our media, and I include entertainment, keep pushing us to conform, want us to accept that there is no alternative and so on.

I think you're with me up to that point.

And of course this is where we part ways because you believe a semi-mainstream party like the NDP should bring those not-for-public-consumption issues to the forefront. And I don't.

The right-wing media in North America has successfully pushed important issues it doesn't want to talk about off the table. Any party that raises them will face condemnation and ridicule.

I would rather the NDP defended what we have and push for things like more support for people in need because I've already seen what happened to the National Party and the Canada Action Party and I don't want the NDP to go there.

The NP and CAP were consigned to political oblivion and the country is poorer for their loss. But the same would happen to the NDP if they tried to attack the gorilla that is our system. And without the NDP people like Christy and Paul Martin would become the most progressive people in Canada. A scary thought.

We both want more issues to be on the table, but I want to see more parties and more people supporting those parties. I do by the way practice what I preach. I voted for Mel Hurtig's National Party and I considered CAP but didn't care for Hellyer so stayed with the NDP.

The issues you raise should be discussed but not at the expense of the only party that supports universal healthcare, defends public education, shines a spotlight on poverty statistics and so on.

Frank

And therein lies the problem with arguments incorporating labels with shifting values. Issues can be needlessly polarized in the blink of an eye.

Let's pigeon hole the speaker rather than evaluate what they say. Kinda like adopting religion so you don't have to take responsibility for your own actions.

It is Time for Change in BC

"Productive engagement is based on long-term relationships between government and citizens."

Matt Leighninger's pivotal point deserves review.

In 2001, voters bought a used car from BC Liberals.

Today, fair to say, it sits idle on the roadside, out of gas, tires flat, with a trunk full of debt.

Through it all Liberals have failed to demonstrate "productive, long-term engagement between government and citizens."

Rather, Gordon Campbell's Liberal leadership ignored his Cabinet, concentrating power in the Premier's office. Setting the stage, as we know, for policy misdirection and political lies.

Christy Clark's leadership faced a tough challenge to "engage government..with citizens". Elected with the lone support of one junior minister in a party contest, Clark is short on real cabinet support, shallow on policy and long on rhetorical spin.

Instead, Premier Clark chose to put distance between herself and BC voters by importing a political-fixer into her office, fresh from Harper's campaign.

Now, little more than a year to Election-day, Clark's government is falling further away from voters.

Would there be support for an idea such as Leighninger's "productive engagement"? Well, people eventually made themselves heard with success in the HST referendum.

After 11 years, time is near the end for the Liberals. It seems obvious Clark and her political-fixer won't give voters the opportunity to be heard until the provincial election.

Until then, Premier Christy Clark will likely spend and spin many millions of dollars claiming others are bad; only Liberals are good.

No longer reliable, the used car is an old junker now.

When this happens, it's time for change in BC.