Blue eyes are better than brown

"Can you name three gay people you learned about in high school?"
Hmmmm. --- Can you tell me of three left-handed people you learned about in school?

We are constantly getting hung up on our differences, if not the feminist issue then it is a racial issue and of course any sexual deviation that we may detect.

Why not let people live as fits them best and mind our own business?

If anything ought to upset us it is how some people can wind up holding down top salary jobs, merely because they happen to have an "in" ---such as being a recent cabinet minister?

Which is "Doable" ?

Do we change the attitudes of everyone in the world OR do take PARENTAL RESPONSIBILITY to adequately prepare our children for the rough, tough REAL world, "out there" ?? Do we continue to insist that the whole world stop and take into consideration that an individual is "special" ? Yeah, RIGHT ! "Special" among 6,879,637,869 OTHER people, most of whom could care less!
Give the selfish, myopic, "Make allowances for me,I'm special" attitude a rest.
TEACH our children how NOT to be offended, how NOT to be "abused", how to cope and respond aggressively with comments designed to offend. Most of all, teach our children how to laugh out loud at small-minded individuals who would use put-downs to enhance their own pathetic lives.
REAL LIFE is competitive, give children the tools to compete in the dog-eat-dog world on the street. DON'T leave it for someone else to do!

Quelle Surprise

Regarding Rebecca Haskell's shock at the frequency of gay bashings, she probably didn't account for the fact that there isn't any other city in North America with a large LBGTQ population that's also within 40 minutes drive of a bible belt.

Education initiatives need to be implemented out in the valley and suburbs in order to be successful. The VSB can't solve this problem on its own.

“Must go to the roots”

Bang on Dorothy. We aren’t born with those attitudes firmly ensconced, we are taught. Whether we learn at our parent’s knee or from the nanny is really not the issue.

Knowing how that stuff becomes part of the mental framework that we (nonconciously) use to steer dialogue is crucial, but like you say, “It's just so much cosmetics …”.

My guess is that the push for LBGTQ policy implementation, although necessary, will simply mask the work that really needs to be done until folks begin to realize it’s much more complicated than that.

Lloyd deMause (The Origins of War in Child Abuse; The Emotional Life of Nations) had part of this figured out eons ago but few are paying attention.

ooops, should read

Knowing how that stuff becomes part of the mental framework that we (nonconsciously) use to steer dialogue is crucial, but, like you say, focusing on policy implementation becomes "just so much cosmetics".

Challenging Futures Indeed

Dorothy asks:

Excellent question/point Dorothy. First rate.

alive asks:

Another excellent question/point.

cboo44, have you by any chance heard of some of the ways those small problems of responding aggressively with comments designed to offend are handled in the middle east? Although you are probably not aware of it, that is quite precisely the scenario you are promoting. Rather than one of understanding and acceptance, you would have the world return blow for blow; insult for insult; intolerance with intolerance. Not a good plan.

It's not about promoting sexuality

"Oh, please, could we forget about the promotion of sexuality in public education?"

It's about removing a pretext for harrassment, bullying and violence, by teaching that it's never OK to target anyone based on any personal trait, including their sexual orientation.

That necessarily involves teaching people what sexual orientation is, and what's acceptable in dealing with other people's.

Do you expect parents to do that? It's pretty clear that some of them don't do it appropriately. Who else but teachers can provide a corrective to that...?

In answer to the question...

"Can you name three gay people you learned about in high school?" NO! I guess it was because their accomplishments did not include the irrelevant information. What I think I learned was "the Golden Rule."

The Purpose of schools

is for learning. Leave the social engineering to the major media. They can afford it.

I think schools, elementary schools

I think schools, elementary schools, are the RIGHT place to start this kind of public education. I think the Supreme Court of Canada thinks so too.

And that's why the Surrey School Board lost when it took the issue of censoring books on the subject all the way to the Supreme Court.

There is no way that public institutions should be making up for good parenting and values in the home...but, they should do what they can to counteract bad parenting and a lack of values when they have the chance.

The best chance to start to address these issues comes when children go to kindergarten; after that, it happens in public schools - the ones the public pays for with their tax dollars.

Stop the BC LIBERAL slow erosion of the quality of public school education and you'll do a LOT for the character of the 'next' generation.

Go along with the increasing transfer of tax dollars to 'independent' and religious schools {where the idea of 'teaching' hatred and prejudice toward all kinds of non-conformists and minorities is the lingua franca of the day) and the problem of bullying, gay bashing and prejudicial attitudes like Patriarchist's are going to be a lot more commonplace.

There is no way you can legislate individual responsibility - but there is a lot we can do to counteract the irresponsible.

John Greg Says

"cboo44, have you by any chance heard of some of the ways those small problems of responding aggressively with comments designed to offend are handled in the middle east? ............."

First, we're NOT in "the middle east".
Second, don't take my comment out of context, read the WHOLE thing. Cherry picking one lousy sentence to "take exception to" is so bloody lame.
Thirdly, there are many ways to respond "aggressively". I taught MY "mixed race" children NOT to ignore the remarks meant to hurt, but instead, respond IMMEDIATELY with laughter and derision. We also raised them with a sense of humour about being "mixed". They did not walk around being sensitive and always ready to be offended, like some people.

Kids are Cruel

the way I see it is that ANY differences that a child has are likely to attract the attention of a bully. Race, weight, speech, disability, intelligence etc were are used by bullies when I was at school. I think that establishing and maintaining civility and empathy will do more good than highlighting one particular targetted group.

Yeoman

That's a good point - and all the more reason why the general concept of dealing with difference needs more than just the attention of whatever small proportion of parents already have the situation well in hand.

this isn't about sexual prefernces

Although it’s a start in addressing this issue … developing empathy towards difference … changes must also happen during the preschool years: from the moment of birth on.

The education system, whether it incorporates LBGTQ policy in its curricula or not, must realize that it is dealing with damaged goods from the outset.

Children arrive at kindergarten with judgments and value frarmeworks already in place: good, bad, ugly, dirty, nasty, stupid, dumb, etc have been linked to pain in a way that fools them into thinking the judgments are real. They’re not.

These frameworks are usually the product of distortinal and judgmental thinking that has indoctrinated (basic Pavlovian conditoning) them with all of the labels and judgments that kids need to create hostility in the school yard.

This isn’t just a product of parental and education system (mis)teaching, it’s systemic and ubiquitous.

Until we recognize that we first have to understand ‘why we think the way we do’, LBGTQ policy implementation will have limited success in changing attitudes.

cboo44

Quite right. So....

Perhaps we should all look at doing a bit of both. A global change toward acceptance, all around, would not be a bad thing.

See above.

But that is not what is being proposed. What is being proposed is much more "Make allowances for everyone else's differences because everyone is, in one way or another, a unique and special individual". And that includes you.

Hence, my Middle East comment. Which I think stands, in terms of reflecting an ideology of behaviour from childhood up to adulthood that is anything but productive.

Yes, I agree with that.

But many thinking people are beginning to question the evolutionarially, and socially, dangerously outdated ideology of such cut-throat social competetition. Perhaps it's a time for change there too.

Great Article

At the end of the day, children, teenagers and adults are still brutally bullying people for their sexual orientation and it needs to come to an end one way or another.

There are children committing suicide all over the world because of they are gay or lesbian OR because someone thought they were. The mentality is that gay is wrong - it has to change!

If it doesn't change, the next generation will have far less people in it and some of those kids had such amazing potential. It saddens me to hear about all the bullying. I've been there as I say in the article but unless you're in that position you will not be able to understand how much it hurts and how much of an impact it has on these kids. It doesn't take much to have a very negative impact on a kids life.

Lets stop bullying for LGBTQ kids as well as kids who get bullied for everything else - we need to start within our own community!

Mooney

When you make such a blanket statement as this, you should also be prepared to define what "learning" is. Since the advent of the public school system some 200+ years ago, that has been tossed about and argued with (apparently) no resolution to date.

Just what, for instance, can be considered of such little importance that it isn't worth learning?

Making it safe to be Queer at home

Being different
Is that to much to ask
Of small children in a play ground
Who deeply hurt others
Because they can

The Complexity of the Bullying Phenomena...

"Until we recognize that we first have to understand ‘why we think the way we do’, LBGTQ policy implementation will have limited success in changing attitudes." KWD

I agree. At least insofar as rushing out with Truth and Reconciliation Brigades, to Force Feed New Moral/Ethical Behaviours, is not likely to change attitudes much here. Not quickly or easily anyway. Sexuality and sexual based attitudes are more complex than is going to be "quick fixed", if ever. The roots run deep into the basic, primordial psyche, I suspect.

About all one can do is attempt to teach tolerance, pass laws and punish illegal behaviours. Even then... Stuff that runs counter to fundamental and deep rooted attitudes and instincts, that is "force fed" is likely to produce opposite or worse results.

Show disapproval socially, and punish bad behaviours, likely over a very long time.

It is not tolerable to bully ANYONE, should be the attitude perspective. That said, it runs deep as a pecking order phenomena throughout all the animal kingdom known to me, not only humans... Especially if you are noticeably different, say an albino deer, or a small bull or cow in close confines with larger others etc. (Young colts too soon put with strange adult horses, without mother nearby, is often a constant source of bullying from mares and stallions/geldings. Both individual mares and stallions/geldings fight for dominance over each and the other constantly, just like our schoolyard kids. Make no mistake. It really does run deep.)

If I haven't indicated, I was frequently a target for bullying in school. (I was a slow grower. Small.)

Though standing up for oneself and fighting back always gets respect, individually or as a group. It's an especially important discovery for a "target" to make.

Those dirty ......

My grandmother was the sweetest lady you could meet, she was always there for the underdog. I can remember words, hurtful words coming out of my sweet grannie's mouth and can still remember them to this day. Granny you don't mean it they are just people like us I would say. Big mistake. My grandmother came from war torn Europe and the Nazi hatred machine did not leave my grandmother exempt. I wonder where are kids get it from?

The purpose of shool is learning

What do you think the kids are learning who are watching the bullies? It is part of everyday life and lucky it isn't them so they keep their mouths shut.
Can children even learn when they have to continually watch their back or fear of being harrassed?

Mooney - The Purpose of Schools

Yes, "the purpose of schools is for learning" -- and this article is all about learning tolerance.

business as usual

“About all one can do is attempt to teach tolerance, pass laws and punish illegal behaviours.”

Which is precisly why those in the LBGTQ community will continue to face hostile environments in schools and elsewhere.

The moment we charge the cops, the courts and/or the education system with the bulk of the responsibility for changing attitudes we absolve ourselves from doing some serious individual introspection and answering some painful questions.

business as usual...

"The moment we charge the cops, the courts and/or the education system with the bulk of the responsibility for changing attitudes we absolve ourselves from doing some serious individual introspection and answering some painful questions." KWD.

Ooooo, there's no question but that there is a need for an entire new human morality, as I keep saying. As we should all have discovered by now, if one has been hanging around Tyee for very long is, is that is a whole lot more difficult and thornier issue to get at than just issuing law and order edicts.

The entire "human and socio-economic order" is going to have to change, in order to encourage and seriously foster that. The dog eat dog, class order pecking/bullying reality of daily life, everyman and woman for his/herself reality of everyday, and the "drivers" of that which keep enforcing it as the only "real morality, regardless of all the pious talk, is going to have to change. (Which includes the way we interface with and relate to nature.) Or as I keep saying, the entire political, social and economic order of human society relationships is going to have to undergo some serious "transformational" work.

All of which ain't gonna be easy, is fraught with risk and even danger. Which is fundamentally why everyone simply ignores it all, goes about their daily individualist interest, and ignores/doesn't participate in even, as much as they can. It's a human conditioning with a long history that runs back at least as far as the time of slavery (as distinct from modern "wage slaver" :-).

Until then, all that can be done is for well meaning folks to get laws passed and then attempt to have them enforced... which as much as anything, drives the behaviours underground, away from the schoolyard and down back alleys etc, with always dubious results of course.

That, of course, or as my daddy used to advise me, "Folks can't and won't always be able to watch over you. Grab a big stick, a pitchfork, anything... and use it. Defend yourself. Do whatever you have to do and deal with the consequences after. But fight back. That's the only real chance for respect you've got. "

Victims get victimized... in international relations, the socio-economic relations of capitalism, and day to day, workaday/playaday life. It's endemic to the condition of certainly all living things known to me.

If humans are ever going to separate themselves from that existential condition of all living things, its going to take some serious, kickass, bite, scratch and reasoning work. That, or suck it up.

who determines who is the victim?

More importantly, how and why?

“The entire ’"human and socio-economic order"’ is going to have to change, in order to encourage and seriously foster that.”

No, no, no. That’s not how it works. In fact it’s contradictory. If the “human and socio-economic order” has changed then the need to encourage and foster introspection will have changed. How will you know it is the change you wanted?

The problem being, you haven’t identified what changed, how it happened or if it the changes actually benefited society the way you had hoped. Evolution, whether biological or societal, is slow, incremental and without concern for human contrived distortions of right, wrong, good or bad.

Of course, if you believe we should leave the writing of prescriptions for change in the hands of politicians, judges, teachers or clerics then you have no choice. All you can do is “suck it up” and “grab a big stick, a pitchfork, anything... and use it.”

Yes, yes, yes... :-) lol

"Introspection" ???

Yea, that'll work alright. The next time your "queer" is face down in the mud, he should tell his tormentors to exercise a little "introspection". That'll change the dynamics alright.

I'll take my chances with the big stick, kicking, screaming, and biting. (I once bit the tip of a guys finger off. He was much, much more introspective, even respectful thereafter, and never picked on me again. Which MAY not always be the case, granted.)

But seriously, no doubt urging some introspection on folks, about the beastly, primitive nature of human relations and attitudes that still lingers in all societies known to me, is appropriate, and might even do "some" good, in my view. But mostly, while being "introspective" for sure, what really has to be changed are the conditions of peoples lives and their exploitive relationship with nature and each other, and the brutal, unequal pecking order system of human society.

Few things are ever a complete either/or, it must be this or it must be that. Typically evolution occurs along a broad front simultaneously, all the time, with many interconnected elements. This is one of them, I suggest: introspection, a little kicking ass and fighting back, and changing individual and socio-economic relationships so as to ameliorate the conflict/competition drivers at the root of human social life and the "natural order".

There is no perfect solution. Neither yours, mine or the folks at back of this article. It is a manifold problem that has to be dealt with along a broader, more complex front than just this or that... even when "Holy Enlightenment, Batman!" we understand all the complex drivers.

And by the by, which should be clear by now to folks familiar with me, I actually advocate folks keep "the writing of prescriptions for change in... " their own hands, and fuck the politicians, judges, teachers and clerics.

But if you buy, as most folks certainly still do, into the primacy of Law and Order, about all you can do is advocate for laws and enforcers.

My view. Yes, yes, yes. :-) lol

carrying a big stick won't help

Although some might want to believe the reasons for victimization remain locked behind immutable “beastly, primitive nature of human relations and attitudes that still lingers in all societies” and remains well hidden in the closet of a “brutal, unequal pecking order system of human society”, that still doesn’t get us any closer to understanding the thinking that determines why victims become victims.

Let me know when you want to see what’s on the other side of the closet door. I won’t hold my breath, I can understand the reluctance to coming out: it could be painful.

Introspection vs Struggle Without...

Yup, maybe I might discover a latent Oedipus complex, or such psychiatric "science" issue. Who knows?

The point is, that kind of navel gazing "science" approach goes on all the time, and is an attempt to discover narrow individualist roots to a larger social problem. It's also often used as a safe, non-threatening, passive substitute for engagement and real action- in the course of which one might find something real about themselves.

While it MAY have some relevance in a given "individual" context, i don't know, its main therapy is still fundamentally "electric shock" therapy, chemicals and voo doo mumbo jumbo, in my view again. :-)

As for my coming out, I've already conceded I'm "queer". What more do you want? 8-D lol.

I self medicate with whiskey, as do most of the masses (save maybe they prefer beer and weed), and the "carry a big stick" coping mechanism . Thus far it works fine, though again, life is infinitely complex, with many waiting traps that one can inadvertently spring.

Living. real living, involves struggle and risks, the necessity of engagement and the risk of errors, as part of growing and plumbing the true depths of oneself... as opposed to lying on the couch to look "introspectively" for meaning. (I kind of assume I'm doing that all the time anyway.)

Again, just my perspective. And I was wrong once before.... whereas you are so sure of yourself: The answer to all lies within. Whereas I say, maybe a bit of that, but mostly poppycock. Too "girlie" for me. :-)Primarily the real answers, the most meaningful ones, lie in the direction of engagement with "the world" as opposed to "the mind", and struggling with it. Nonetheless, I envy your certainty. :-)

cultural issues too

Homosexuality must be celebrated as equally-valid lifestyle compared to heterosexuality, and it should be absolutely clear on citizenship examinations that homosexuality is an integral, equal part of Canadian culture. Hate crimes need to be punished with longer sentences and more resources devoted to finding and punishing the perps. If some minority cultures are endemically homophobic, they must be re-educated to the reality that gays deserve total protection under the laws of Canada.

Oscar Wilde, Alexander the

Oscar Wilde, Alexander the Great and Sappho just off the top of my head. For the most part, when we learned about historical figures at school, their sexuality was never discussed. Period. When we read up on Neil Armstrong, it was about him being the first person on the moon, not who he prefered to have sex with. Same with Darwin or Einstein or Field Marshall Montgomery. In fact, the big issue when I was a kid wasn't who famous people wanted to have sex with, but the fact that most of them were white males, and history was distorted by the fact that nobody else's accomplishments were considered worthy of record.

Sticks and stones

Whatever happened to 'sticks and stones can break my bones, but names can never hurt me'?
I grew up in the late '50s and early '60s in a small northern BC town, when homosexuality was considered either sick or sinful. I survived.
Of course, this was when homosexuality was not discussed, recognized, or worried about. We who were just played along. Only the pajama parties outed us to our friends, who also never said anything to anyone.
I've been out since I was thrown out of my sorority at UBC in 1965. I survived.
I went on to work in advertising in the late '60s, where my co-workers were aware I was a lesbian. I didn't have any problems.
Later, when I became a creative director, my bosses knew I was a lesbian. No problem. We double dated on occassion. I did more than survive. I prospered.
Why?
Because I had no shame about who I am and didn't hide my sexual orientation.
I was raised in a very Catholic family ... I must admit my mother never got over me telling her I was a lesbian (at age 30) ... she was the last person on the planet to know. She died never accepting me as a homosexual. That was her problem, not mine. She did accept me lovingly as her daughter. We just didn't talk about it.
The problem with bullying of GLBTXYZ (who the hell came up with this?) people is, in my opinion, to be as much blamed on the parents of said victims as the bullies.
There does take courage to 'come out' or not when you are a teenager. Is it worth it? By the time you are in college or university, can you hide it? Is it necessary to come out, or hide it?
Do you have the courage to be who you are? If not, fake it until you can make it.
Be who you are. But if you are a screaming weenie where you are obviously not welcome and perhaps in danger, shut the fuck up.
I've been on movie sets as a background performer where 'screaming weenies' made me ashamed of being a homosexual person. If you need to bring attention to yourself, don't be amazed that someone will react violently. You piss me off, let alone a 'straight' person.
When someone calls you a 'faggot' or a 'dyke', walk on by. It's better than being beaten to death.

Marushka ...

Why don't you tell all that anecdotal "one person's experience" gibberish to the many gays and lesbians who while simply and quietly and with no fanfare, and without being what you so idiotically and offensively call being "a screaming weenie", have been badly beaten, some to death, without provocation, for simply having had the courage to be who they are.