British Columbia, Test Bed for Harper's Religious Base
How BC became ground zero in the Christian conservative battle to shift Canada's culture.
Peter and Murray Corren on their wedding day.
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[Editor's note: Today we begin a series, running all this week, excerpted from The Armageddon Factor, Marci McDonald's in-depth look at how the Christian right is building its political power in Canada under the approving eye of Prime Minister Stephen Harper. The five installments are from the book's chapter titled "Raising the Joshua Generation," which traces British Columbia's central role in religious conservatives' drive to raise a next generation well trained in its mission to shift Canada away from secular public culture. One person targeted by this movement as a key adversary and spur to mobilize is an advocate for tolerance in public schools, a gay former teacher from Coquitlam named Murray Corren.]
In the Grade 12 social-studies class at Riverside Secondary School in Port Coquitlam, 25 teenagers turn their attention from text messaging to the well-tailored retiree who is their guest speaker of the week. Immaculate in grey flannels and a buttoned-down shirt, he is far from an imposing figure, easily dwarfed by the tallest girls in the class, but as these students well know, this is no ordinary visitor dropping in on Social Justice 12, the controversial new course designed to combat discrimination in British Columbia schools. Murray Corren is its inspiration and driving force -- one half of the gay couple behind the most provocative revamping of the provincial curriculum since the government first dared to inform students about the verboten subject of sex.
In online Christian chat rooms and the right-wing blogosphere, he and his spouse, Peter Corren, have been called every epithet imaginable since they launched a 1999 human rights complaint against B.C.'s Ministry of Education for "systemic gender discrimination." Seven years later, just as the case was finally scheduled to be heard, the government settled, seizing on the Correns' proposal for an elective course to combat not only homophobia but bigotry of every kind, including biases against the disabled, the homeless and the poor. To thousands of evangelical and Catholic parents, those topics were mere window dressing to mask the true aims of the course: foisting what some like to call a "homosexualist agenda" on impressionable teens.
For two years, they attempted to block both the course and another product of the settlement that caused even greater consternation: a curriculum guide to teaching diversity in select subjects from kindergarten to high school on which the Correns were given an unprecedented advisory role. One evangelical group, the Canadian Alliance for Social Justice and Family Values Association (CASJAFVA), collected 17,000 signatures on a petition condemning the agreement and staged a noisy demonstration outside the provincial legislature, while Vancouver's former Roman Catholic archbishop, Raymond Roussin, warned parents that the proposed guide would infect the classroom with "morally objectionable material."
After the debut of Social Justice 12 in the fall of 2008, its foes stepped up their efforts. A half-dozen organizations, including REAL Women of B.C., formed a coalition called Take Back Our Schools, which blasted the Corren agreement as a blatant attack on parents' rights.
In Abbotsford, the epicentre of the province's Bible belt, the same school board that had once covertly OKed the teaching of creation science refused to offer the course for a year -- its reluctance bolstered by a group called Parents for Democracy in Education, which sounded the equivalent of an Amber Alert. "Government Dictatorship?" its online advertisements screamed. "Are you alarmed about the revised school curriculum? Is it challenging parental rights, cultural values and religious freedom?" The group's website featured a plug from the former Social Credit premier, Bill Vander Zalm, who donated half the profits from his most recent book to the cause and denounced "the growing trend of student indoctrination."
While the outcry over the Corren agreement has become one of the most polarizing skirmishes in the Canadian culture wars, it is only the latest standoff in a half-century struggle to determine which values are taught in the public-school system and who has the final say over what a child learns: parents or the government. Ever since any mention of creationism was banned from biology lessons in the name of science and prayers were pulled out of schools in the name of interfaith harmony, many conservative Christians have come to view state-run education systems with mistrust and outright hostility. As they see it, liberals and secular humanists have conspired with the courts to wipe out all symbols of Christianity from the classroom and impose an alien agenda on their offspring.
Alberta reacts
In Quebec, where the government has orchestrated a decade-long secularization of education, some Catholics and evangelicals have launched lawsuits against the Ministry of Education over a new ecumenical course called Ethics and Religious Culture that has been declared mandatory. Designed to boost cross-cultural understanding in a province where that commodity sometimes appeared to be in short supply, the course has provoked outrage for giving the same weight to Hinduism, Judaism, Islam, aboriginal spirituality and even Wicca as it does to Christianity.
Last year, a Quebec judge dismissed a case filed by two Drummondville families who had charged the ministry with violating their constitutional rights by refusing requests to exempt their children from the course, but, with other cases pending, this is unlikely to be the last word from the courts. [Indeed, in June, Quebec Superior Court Justice Gerard Dugre ruled that Loyola High School, a private Catholic boys' school in Montreal, was not obliged to teach the course, declaring that it breached the Quebec Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms and noting that the Department of Education's attitude on the issue "assumes a totalitarian quality essentially equivalent to the order given to Galileo by the Inquisition to renounce Copernican cosmology." The provincial government is now appealing his controversial decision.]
Meanwhile, the Alberta government found itself under fire for introducing a contentious measure that guarantees parents the very right their Quebec counterparts were refused: the opportunity to yank their children out of any classes dealing explicitly with religion or sexual orientation. Despite objections from the provincial teachers' federation and a warning from the Canadian Civil Liberties Association that the bill would help "promote a regime of religious intolerance," it survived five stormy weeks of debate in the legislature to become law in the spring of 2009, prompting former Conservative senator Ron Ghitter to observe that "we're kind of stepping back into the Middle Ages."
Alberta's move was clearly a pre-emptive strike designed to prevent the Corren precedent from spilling across the border, a fear that conservative Christians have fanned in every province. Still, not all the objections to B.C.'s Social Justice 12 have come from the family-values camp. While the minister of education was hailing it as a global milestone in teaching diversity, some of the loudest objections emerged from the very communities who make up the province's diverse demographic patchwork: Hindu, Sikh and Chinese Canadians who have demonstrated that, on issues like same-sex marriage, they can be as socially conservative as the Christian right.
That realization was not lost on Stephen Harper when he drafted his theo-conservative strategy, nor was it any accident that Harper kicked off his 2008 election campaign clad in a blue sweater, indulging in a round of baby-kissing in the B.C. riding of a three-time candidate named Alice Wong. Now the Conservative member of Parliament for Richmond, Wong had been an enthusiastic speaker and fundraiser for CASJAFVA, the right-wing advocacy group whose mostly Chinese membership had organized the largest protest against the Corren agreement.
But the furor over Social Justice 12 was also fostered by cross-border ministries like Focus on the Family Canada, headquartered on the outskirts of Langley, east of Vancouver. Fresh from his radio campaign against same-sex marriage in this country, its founder, James Dobson, warned the millions of subscribers to his monthly newsletter of yet another threat: a cabal of gay activists had drafted a sinister plot against the continent's schools. In elaborate detail, he spelled out their "audacious attempt to reshape the beliefs of an entire generation, beginning with the youngest and most vulnerable."
Summoning his followers to block any attempts to portray homosexuality as an acceptable lifestyle, Dobson pulled out all the rhetorical stops. "Not since Adolf Hitler prepared a generation of German and Austrian youth for war," he fumed, "has so grand a strategy been attempted."
The making of Murray Corren
Standing before the Social Justice 12 class, Corren looks incapable of provoking such inflammatory prose, but as a veteran of nearly every gay-rights fight in the province, he is clearly the incarnation of James Dobson's worst nightmare -- a symbol of everything the religious right deems wrong with public education.
Murray Corren might have rhymed off statistics to the class: 82 per cent of gay students report being bullied and 48 per cent confess to contemplating suicide. He could have recounted the tragedies of two American adolescents who'd actually been driven to kill themselves, one found hanged by an electrical cord in his closet after being taunted as a "fag" by classmates.
Instead, Corren relates a condensed version of his own biography, growing up as Murray Warren in a bleak Newfoundland mining town where he was mocked at school as a "sissy" and occasionally limped home with a bloody nose. It is a calculated strategy, he admits, to stress the personal, not the political. "All the research shows that if you actually know somebody who is gay," he says, "it's much harder to discriminate."
Coming of age in the 1950s, Corren was haunted by a book he'd found at the local public library, Abnormal Sexuality, which, he says, detailed "this sickness, this mental illness I had." Even when he escaped to Memorial University in St. John's, then to Montreal, where he taught for two years, he lived in terror of revealing his sexuality. That changed when he went to England to complete his M.A. thesis. Helping out at one of London's private gay clubs, he caught sight of a dashing Englishman with piercing blue eyes named Peter Cook, the beginning of a 40-year relationship that lasted until Cook's death in December 2009.
Five years earlier, when they became one of Canada's first same-sex couples to marry -- their garden ceremony featured in the National Film Board documentary Why Thee Wed -- they signalled their status by legally amalgamating their surnames, Cook and Warren, to Corren, a moniker that has become a household word in religious right circles.
Still, they had been together for nearly two decades, running florist businesses in England and South Africa, before it occurred to them to enlist in the movement for gay rights. Moving to Vancouver on the eve of the 1990 Gay Games, they found a city where homosexuals were celebrating a newfound sense of freedom, but at the Coquitlam elementary school where Corren had landed a teaching job, he kept his live-in relationship under wraps. Then, on a trip to San Francisco, watching its notoriously flamboyant Gay Pride parade, he was stunned to see a contingent of gay and lesbian teachers marching under a banner proclaiming their sexual identity.
So moved was Corren by their openness that he jumped out of the crowd to join them, only to have his euphoria shattered by a stinging rebuke from the crowd. "Where were you when I needed you?" a young spectator yelled at the teachers' contingent.
The incident left Corren shaken. "I realized it was a question I had to answer," he tells the class. "Where was I for the students I taught who were wrestling with their sexuality?"
Book banning
Helping to found a support group called the Gay and Lesbian Educators of B.C. (GALE BC), Corren became its public face and a lightning rod for social-conservative fury. When he asked his school board to investigate the plight of gay pupils, he received his first death threats.
Months later, at a tumultuous meeting of the B.C. Teachers' Federation, his resolution calling for an official policy to end homophobia passed by a landslide, but that victory opened the way to a more determined backlash -- one that would galvanize conservative Christians across the country.
In the wake of the federation vote, the school board in Surrey brought in a resolution pointedly banning any resource material recommended by educators who were members of GALE. The move hardly came as a surprise -- among the most outspoken Surrey trustees was Heather Stilwell, a former leader of the Christian Heritage Party -- but GALE set out to test the board's stand.
Weeks later, an openly gay kindergarten teacher named James Chamberlain asked for permission to use three supplementary storybooks depicting same-sex families: Asha's Mums, Belinda's Bouquet and One Dad, Two Dads, Brown Dads, Blue Dads.
As Corren rhymes off the titles, the Riverside students nod in recognition -- for most, the books had been standard primary-school fare -- but the Surrey trustees vetoed all three. Testifying at a crammed board meeting on Chamberlain's behalf, Corren showed up sporting a T-shirt that announced "Bigots Ban Books," only to find himself caught up in a near-riot. As a reporter hustled him to safety in a waiting car, parents in hot pursuit, one bruiser branded him a pervert and pedophile.
The episode steeled his resolve. He and his partner hired the human rights lawyer Joe Arvay, who had defended Vancouver's lesbian bookstore Little Sisters, to mount Chamberlain's constitutional challenge against the Surrey board. Although the Correns were only tangentially involved, they guaranteed Arvay's legal fees, which would eventually exceed $1 million as the case made its way through two appeals to the nation's highest court.
A watershed -- for Christian right, too
Five years later, the Supreme Court ruled that the Surrey board had defied the nature and intent of the B.C. Schools Act by banning the three storybooks.
Writing for the majority, Chief Justice Beverley McLachlin refused to acknowledge the supremacy of parents' rights. "Parental views, however important, cannot override the imperative placed upon the British Columbia public schools to mirror the diversity of the community, and teach tolerance and understanding of difference," she declared.
For many conservative Christians, the decision still stands as a watershed, a legal Waterloo that galvanized them into the sort of grassroots activism that Ralph Reed pioneered in the U.S., taking over local school boards and town councils in the first step toward building a nationwide resistance movement. A social-conservative coalition called the Surrey Electoral Team emerged to control the board and city government for nearly a decade, and one of its leading members, the former school-board chair, Mary Polak, would go on to become a cabinet minister in Gordon Campbell's provincial government.
Tomorrow: The religious right's backlash fuels a fast growing Bible-based schooling movement across Canada. ![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
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samuidave (not verified)
1 year ago
religious intolerance ...
crazy intolerance. You say po-TAE-to, I say Po-ta-to.
khed67
1 year ago
coming out
From the article:
"All the research shows that if you actually know somebody who is gay," he says, "it's much harder to discriminate."
I would wager that most homophobes do know many people who are gay, though perhaps they don't realize it. In order to better combat intolerance, more gays need to come out publicly, and perhaps more importantly, the gay friendly majority need to be more vocally supportive.
Dr Alexander
1 year ago
Interesting Article Marci. But....
how about doing a 5-parter on the Corren Agreement.
Booker
1 year ago
activism
It is exactly this sort of religious activism that inspired non-believers to become more vocal about the inherent flaws in religious thought. This shows the importance of the work of Richard Dawkins and PZ Myers (Myers has the world's most popular science blog, and he will be in Vancouver to speak at UBC on July 30th, http://www.cficanada.ca/vancouver/events/cfi_presents_pz_myers/ ).
The people fighting Mr. Corren are no different from those whites in Little Rock, Arkansas, or Montgomery, Alabama, who tried to block African Americans from entering the public schools in the 1960s. That generation of bigots also used Christianity as their cudgel to keep other people down.
This is not to imply that Christianity is uniquely oppressive -- it isn't. The argument is that faith, as a mode of thought, should receive no special status over any other mode of thought. Faith should be tested with the same intellectual skepticism that we apply to politics, economics, law, or any other endeavor.
In the long run, the bigots of Surrey and the BC Bible Belt will lose, just as the bigots of Dixie did.
Karl Barth
1 year ago
Christian Right or Simply an Altenative Viewpoint
Marci McDonald, if you are reading this, can you please explain to me what the Christian Right is, who it is and why this is an appropriate definition for people who simply don't agree with BC's curriculum? For one thing, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights guarentees that parents have the inherent prior right to choose what kind of education their children shall receive. Additionally, the International Covenant on Civil and political Rights which Canada signed and rattified states that Canada pledged to "undertake to have respect for the liberty of parents, and when applicable, legal guardians to ensure the religious and moral education of their children in conformity with their own convictions."
So with respect to education, one should consider who is really "right wing" and who is truly a libertarian. Alberta is at least interested in ensuring that these rights are protected unlike the totalitarian ministries of education in BC and Quebec. I'm beginning to think that if anyone is religious they must therefore be "right" of centre for Marci's definition to work.
Booker
1 year ago
Karl
Where does it say that parents have the inherent prior right to have their religious and moral views endorsed by the democratically elected government?
Karl Barth
1 year ago
Accomodation v. Assimilation
Since when are the people who elected the government ineligable for accomodation within the classroom? It is not the states role to decide who can believe what or to sponsor some moralistic idea (CF. Corren Settlement Agreement, Quebec ERC Course - ridiculous). The question is really whether this is a case of education or re-education. Why does the state believe that it has the right to indoctrinate? If you look at the Elgin County decision in 1990 where the court outlines the role of religious education within public schools the court specifically states that "the school school should study what all people believe, but should not teach a student what to believe." Who's talking about the state endorsing a particular religious view? I'm talking about accomodation vs. assimilation. It's the states responsibility to protect the rights of parents and to be accomodated (ie. public school cannot mandate something which infringes on the rights of the parents- who by the way are part of the public too). Why should people have to stand on the sidelines or in some corner or run away to private school to ensure that their rights are protected and that their parents' values are not undermined in public school. The Corren Settlement Agreement is an absolute violation of human rights with the ammendment to the Ministry of Education's "Alternatative Delivery Policy."
Dr Alexander
1 year ago
Aww.... Wait a minute.
Somebody tell me. Is this article really something to inform us about what is happening in BC, or is it actually advertising?
"Excerpted from The Armageddon Factor. Copyright 2010 Marci McDonald"
Karl Barth
1 year ago
Armageddon... again
It does seem a little bit familiar doesn't it
gws5597
1 year ago
In some ways, this is the
In some ways, this is the toxic religious climate in the US spilling over into Canada. If we want to stay "multicultural" or whatever it's called, we're going to have to wake up and start defending ourselves against the ignorant masses to the south and their vile, divisive Culture War. This is not something that the government has control over - it's something people are going to have to deal with on their own. Ottawa is certainly not going to throw up a wall along the 49th parallel, make tea partiers inadmissible, or pump a billion dollars into the Americans' corrupt elections (thank you Citizens United).
Booker
1 year ago
Rights
Karl, they have the right to fight for their beliefs. They don't have the inherent right to have them included in the curriculum. They have the right to argue -- they don't have the right to win.
What is included in the public school curriculum has always been contentious and always will be. All beliefs cannot be included. It is not the state's role to ensure that everyone is accommodated. It seems that on the one hand you argue against government power and on the other you want government to support absolutely every point of view of every citizen. It is NOT the job of the state to accommodate every point of view. We have elections to decide who wins. You say that "parents are a part of the public too". Your are right -- and a lot of them don't want religious instruction in the public schools, and they do want books like Asha's Mums to be available.
To say that this is not a religious question, when groups like Focus on the Family is involved, is difficult to swallow.
dorothy
1 year ago
Up the wrong tree..
"It is exactly this sort of religious activism that inspired non-believers to become more vocal about the inherent flaws in religious thought."
For me, there is no difference between the strident voices on either side: The Xians who don't like my Norse amulet, and the Dawkinses,who don;t like it either. The reasons why they don't like it don't matter to me, the fact that they think it's their business at-all does.
There is nothing wrong with any religion, as long as it stays in its corner and serves the person who follows it. If it works, don't knock it. There is something wrong with all beliefs, religious or secular, when the next guy tries to cram them down my throat. He can comment on my behavior, my actions, but not on my beliefs. Amen.
dorothy
1 year ago
"don't", not "don;t"
Sorry!
Karl Barth
1 year ago
Asha and her two mums...
By accomodation I am referring to the ridiculous amendment made to the option for "Alternative Delivery Policy" by the Corren Settlement Agreement. Complain about Focus on the Family or whatever other group you choose, if your child attends public school and you do not agree with the material being taught, you should have the option to remove him or her from the classroom. I am not saying that the public curriculum should include religious practices. I am saying that where religious students are present, they should be allowed to remove their children (therefore their rights will be accomodated where their parents can instruct them how they choose)- that is where the violation really occurs. Why should religious parents need to send their children somewhere else because the school maintians a policy that does not accomodate them.
When you say the public wants Asha's mums included in the curriculum, you are ignoring not just the religious instruction of "Christian nuts" but also Sikhs, Muslims, and Hindus. And by the way, the most dominant religion in Vancouver is Sikhism, so when you say the public you must mean the public who don't have any religious convinctions. Last I checked freedom of religion was still a right
Karl Barth
1 year ago
Cram it down my throat
Why is it acceptable to cram homosexuality as a normative practice down the throats of religious groups in public schools, but not acceptable for religious groups to do the same with respect to gays and lesbians? Isn't this just a double standard where one is allowed freedom of conscience and belief but the other is not? This is the violation that I am talking about.
Booker
1 year ago
Belief
Okay, Dorothy -- I'm going to criticize your belief -- your belief that your beliefs cannot be commented on. What a boring world that would be. No more political discussions, no more Tyee, no more Dorothy (or the rest of us) commenting on the Tyee critiquing the opinions of others.
As you recognized in your comment, I said that it was religious activism that inspired the vocal non-believers, not the quiet, personal, invisible variety of faith.
Conductor274
1 year ago
Religious bigots
Isn't this rich.
"Vancouver's former Roman Catholic archbishop, Raymond Roussin, warned parents that the proposed guide would infect the classroom with "morally objectionable material."
The catholic church warning others about morally objectionable material while their priests have buggered little boys for generations.
Stephen Harper and his religious bigots are trying to ram Christanity down the throats of an entire country. Yet their members will threaten violence and death to those who disagree with them. They are no different than the followers of Osama Bin Laden.
Booker
1 year ago
Karl
Why is it acceptable to cram Chinese people down the throats of non-Chinese people in public school? Isn't that violating the rights of white racists?
That's the kind of violation I am talking about.
It is a right. Having other people support your religion, or agree with it, is not.
warbler
1 year ago
Dorothy, you are up the wrong tree
Yes, there is a difference between the strident voices on either side, and that difference is tolerance vs. intolerance; religion vs. secular. Christian fanatics do not tolerate secular diversity, especially when it comes to sexual orientation. They want to impose their dogma beyond those corners you speak of; they refuse to stay in their corners. This is intolerance cloaked in the euphemism - 'parental rights'.
The GLBT community is not a religious community. It is a secular, HUMAN community and its claims to constitutional human rights are not the same as religious freedom claims.
We've decided long ago that prayer and religion do not belong in our public school system. The fanatics have never accepted this and will use any opportunity to try and get it back in.
What we've decided does belong in our public schools is tolerance for diversity. If parents don't like that, there are a number of excellent private school options for them to choose from!
morechatter
1 year ago
Religion and Politics
Is much like Oil and Water as Canadians want the Conservatives to leave the prayer book at home as Canadians don't want the unholy alliance bringing them down to a Conservative level as God only knows is Harper really the devil in disguise.
lemonheart
1 year ago
Righteousness
The problem is righteousness.
Most religious folks are NOT open minded or tolerant of others as its only a matter of time before their Righteousness gets the best of them and the need to spread the message.
Prayer should never be allowed in any school however a course detailing ALL the main religions should be mandatory.
This would be impossible for the religious to accept. Their beliefs would be held up to the light of reason, discussion, and God forbid, the students thinking and deciding for themselves how they feel about it.
...I've always viewed religion as form of assault on children by their religious parents.
Karl Barth
1 year ago
For Clarity
I think we're saying the same thing in different ways... I agree with you Booker, what I disagree with is the state imposed moralism on relgious groups. Is homosexuality normative... it is in some places, maybe most, doesn't really matter. Is it a moral practice, well that is up to you. But if you have a belief and you have children, you have the right to raise your children in conformity with your own beliefs. When I say state imposed, I mean that the state is imposing a form of education prior to parents' rights ("Alternate delivery policy") which is a violation of the Internation Treaty on Civil and Political Rights.
For the record, I don't think that religion should be taught in the classroom, at least in public school. But I also don't think that kids should be taught in contradiction to their parents' beliefs and convictions, therefore alienating religous groups from the public school system.
Since homosxuality is shown to be normal within certain parts of mandatory classes (and I am not making a moral judgment here about homosexuality) there should at least be some allowance for people who actually hold religious beliefs to be accomodated. Why is it so unacceptable for people with a particular theological viewpoint to be excused?
Chris H
1 year ago
Social Justice 12
One interesting fact about the Corren Agreement and Social Justice 12 in BC is that the course is an ELECTIVE taken by students who WANT to take it! So, the objection by parents of this course in BC schools is:
1. Their sons or daughters may want to take this course despite their wishes. 17 year-olds are hard to control, you know!
2. They aren't really worried about their own children, but are worried about everyone elses children.
Fiat lux
1 year ago
Religions, ideologies and
Religions, ideologies and economic theories, not to mention our monetary system, are all based on "faith", which ends up as faith in ruling classes to enslave and steal people blind. Endless historical precedents.
The nazis' antisemitism was based on religious beliefs, "the Jews crucified Christ and are now paying the price". ( I was there and have the written evidence that this was preached in the pulpits)
Stalin's crime wave was based on the warped writings of the prophet Marx, as the warped theories of neoclassical economics are on the also warped writings of the prophet Adam Smith.
Fundamentalist religions are dead set against labour unions, as they are against "divine orders", which means the ruling rights of aristocracies, and local mines now have the Christian unions they can control.
"Because it is written" ! The funny thing is that they claim that God came down from heaven and gave contradictory orders to 5,000 different prophets, urging them to kill the disciples of other prophets he gave instructions before, which has made history's religions the biggest
and most murderous crime waves, as we can now see in the fights and assassinations even between the various sects of the same religions. I.e. Ireland, Iraq, etc.
It makes little difference to the faithful what they believe in and brainwash their children with, as long as they "have faith"!
Religions and corporates are not democratic institutions and have always been against all forms of individual freedoms and self determination. E.g the cozy relationship between Western capitalists and Eastern communists, basically brothers under the skin, demanding full submission and obedience to the same gangs of politbureaus on one side and corporate boards of directors on the other, making the biggest communists of the former Soviet Bloc the biggest capitalists today.
The question is how far should "religious freedom" be permitted to rule and enslave minds with the most outrageous claims as "God's orders?"
How do we know that the various and endless interpretations of of the Bible and the Koran are "God's words""Because it is written....".
I'm not at all surprised that Harper is a brainwashed neoclassical economist and a fundamentalist Christian, as I have seen those expressionless, empty eyes under Totenkopf and Red Star caps, so nothing surprises me about that closet fascist.
Ed Deak.
THEBURDENOFCULTURE
1 year ago
The Actual Experience
KARL, it is acceptable for us to communicate the real experiences of real people whose aims have nothing to do with oppressing the views of others. Alternatively, it is not acceptable for us to unreasonably stifle the REAL experiences of REAL people because we think it is inappropriate for our children... furthering some inspient notion that our children will be morally corrupted because we as a society chose to communicate these so-called controversial experiences to them.
Again, these are real people, who (as it seems to me) are much less morally corrupt than those who are trying to withhold truths about our world in the name of preserving morality.
Karl Barth
1 year ago
Racism, Bigotry, Religion
So basically, religious freedom is an acceptable practice everywhere except public places and when it comes the children. Oh yes I forgot, the state must know better when it comes to the education of my children, what do I know, I'm only some random person who is investing my entire life in to them. Naturally I have no reason to be concerned with what my kids are learning in school. Oh, and by the way, I guess I should hate all religious people too. I don't mind religious people as long as I never have to see one. I guess we should really interpret freedom of religion as freedom FROM religion. Wouldn't that make you all happy. Oh wait a minute, that sounds a little extreme now doesn't it. Strange that everyone wants to talk about the rights of minorities without respect for the views of those minorities... Let's just call everyone a bigot who is religious and be done with it. I guess I'll go back to stand in my corner with my children and run away to private school. I thought the university was supposed to be a place for the free exchange of ideas... I guess by the exchange of ideas that must mean all ideas except religious ones.
elbear
1 year ago
Taliban for Canadians
We have the Taliban in Canada too. I saw them in action at the BC Conservative policy workshop in May. They travel in groups of 2 or 3, and are well dressed, good looking young men in shirts and ties. While their message of conservative family values is commendable, the loss of rights of certain classes of people, women included, comes with the package.
Bob Watts
1 year ago
Control
Conservatism in it’s pure form is to blindly follow, by invoking the name of Jesus Christ. Sounds much the same game plan as the extreme Talaban. So Harper spends what $20 billion (including maintenance) on supersonic jets to fight an Afghan on a bicycle. But the 911 guys where from Saudi Arabia, and their message was I think, we want you all to covert to Islam.
RELIGON MAKES PLANET EARTH A DANGEROUS PLACE FOR THOSE OF US WITHOUT BLINDERS BOLTED TO OUR HEADS!!!
Karl Barth
1 year ago
Chris H. Do your homework.
"Social Justice 12
One interesting fact about the Corren Agreement and Social Justice 12 in BC is that the course is an ELECTIVE taken by students who WANT to take it! So, the objection by parents of this course in BC schools is:
1. Their sons or daughters may want to take this course despite their wishes. 17 year-olds are hard to control, you know!
2. They aren't really worried about their own children, but are worried about everyone elses children."
I happen to have a copy of the Corren agreement on my desk, would you like a summary? Social Justice 12 was only one part of the agreement, and a small part at that. You should read the whole agreement, it's available online.
Basically the Corren Settlement Agreement changed all of BC's Social Studies, English ect from k-10 including homosexuality in elementary schools. English, Social Studies ect. are not electives.
The Correns were able to single handedly pick who they believed to be experts in homophobia ect and the Ministry of Education was required to consult with those individuals when redrafting the curriculum. So two men where able to effectively change all of BCs public school curriculum and do so without the consultation of parents and make it impossible for parents with objections to remove their children because another part of the agreement required an amendment to the "Alternative Delivery Policy."
I don't object to almost all of it except that you can be guarenteed that in creating this "accomodating enviroment" the Corren's did not exactly provide a balanced bibliography or allow for parents to opt their children out... again - education or re-education. Nice of the Ministry to do this so that they would they would not need to admit liability. Good work BC, way to reprent your constituents!
The most ironic thing is that it was a Human Rights Tribunal that arbitrated it.
MichaelT
1 year ago
Thank you for this series of
Thank you for this series of excerpts - long overdue.
Carol Pickup
1 year ago
The "Christian" Conservatives
As a Christian, I would like to remind the so-called
Conservative "Christians" that Jesus said; "Judge not,
lest you yourself be judged", and "Love one another as
I have loved you." Are you really following the
teachings of Jesus?
Booker
1 year ago
Karl again
I don't know how to say this any more clearly -- state sponsorship of religion is not freedom of religion. South of the border, the framers of the U.S. constitution argued that the opposite was the case. Religious freedom was the absence of state sponsorship. Religious zealots have been unhappy with that every since, thinking that THEIR religion, sect, or cult should be the official religion of the state. I think that what they did down there was correct. State sponsorship of religion is a sure way to kill religion. Perhaps I should be for more in favour of it then.
Fiat lux
1 year ago
It is all very nice to
It is all very nice to demand and propagandize "religious freedom", even if and when they preach and teach hate against others, but which religion is true?
There are about 2,000 Christian sects alone. Which is the correct one?
I grew up in and with religion, went to parochial school, etc. so I know what they teach; "It makes no difference what you believe in, as long as you believe".
This is how and why the suicide bombers are blowing up themselves, hoping to kill many others for God, because they "believe" that they're doing it for the "faith" and it will lift them immediately into the 7th heaven, without any preliminary stops at the lower levels.
Faith conquers all. Especially logical thought.
Ed Deak.
Perry
1 year ago
Parental rights do not always trump children's rights
In defending parental rights in this comment section, Karl Barth cites UN conventions, but fails to mention the most relevant one, the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, and specifically the educational rights it recognizes children have. That's typical of those who argue that parental rights always trump children's rights, which is simply not true.
He seems worried about the so-called indoctrination of children on the issue of human rights (gay rights) in public schools, but says nothing about the actual religious indoctrination, and denial of basic children's rights, in private schools or in home 'schools'. That is a far more serious problem since religious indoctrination creates generation after generation of bigots who think human rights only apply to them, or to no one at all. They want human rights laws and conventions to protect them (religious freedom), but not those they dogmatically deem to be undeserving of such protection. That's disgusting!
By the way, the concept of religious freedom does include "freedom from religion", contrary to what Karl suggests. Without the right to be free from religion, religious freedom is meaningless. Freedom of religion includes the right not to believe in any deity or religion, and the right not to have it imposed on you by governments or their agents. Children have the right to freedom of conscience and religion, just like adults. However, if adults prevent children from exercising that freedom, for example, by indoctrinating them into an exclusive belief system that they then become entrapped in, then those adults have not only effectively denied those children their religious rights, but have also denied those children their full future rights they will enjoy as adults to make up their own minds on these issues. Children have the right to an open future, but that right can easily be smothered by parents imposing their belief system on them.
CF1
1 year ago
Politics & Religion
History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes. (Thomas Jefferson)
jnewcomb
1 year ago
not just christian right
Nature of all religion and culture is to be exclusionary, bar none. With BC rapidly integrating immigrants, nmany of whom bring their own exclusionary, homophobic cultures with them, the christian "right" will be seen for what it really is - just another example of religious and cultural expression whose power is to oppress gays and women. Sikh, punjabi, and other cultures are getting outed now because of gay-bashing, but those cultures/religions will take pride in how their sons are defending the culture against gay power.
Irony for gender is that because BC women now enjoy free abortion on demand, the immigrant cultures can quietly practice sex-selective abortion, getting the foetus'gender confirmed in Blaine's private labs, and then back to a Vancouver clinic for a quick 12th-week abortion.
The new "right"will cease to fight against gay preaching in public schools, and instead, remove their children from the public schools, or set up their equal of Deutsche Samstagschule, or saturday schools to preach their own liturgy of exclusion.
Batiushka
1 year ago
Interesting
Why people is so against Christians? Everybody accepts all others as Sikhs, Buddhist, Muslims and so on. We can have Yoga at elementary schools (which is somehow related to Hindi religion) but we cannot pray the Lord's prayer.
Canadian laws have even been adjusted to these type of people but when someone says he is a Christian and he wants to keep his values others start to complain.
The way we are going here in Canada soon this will be an Islamic country and everybody will say amen.
We are ok with all others, but not with Christians. By the way been Christian does not mean you are religious, this is a big mistake. Christ was against religion.
Starting to worry that the freedom of worship that our grandfathers had is going to the drain.
charlie no song
1 year ago
What I want to know
1) Sheltering your children from current realities promotes ignorance and prejudice. So what if you don't "agree" with that lifestyle, it doesn't mean that your children should be raised not knowing about it. I don't "agree" with Christianity but I have learned to tolerate it and have educated myself about it to gain clarity regarding beliefs and how they came to be. Also, raising young people also means that hopefully as a parent you have given your child skills to think for themselves and to feel comfortable to ask questions about things they are learning about. Promoting discussion is a step forward.
2) As a young adult, I am sick and tired of older generations who fail to realize that by not promoting acceptance of societal differences, it ultimately ends up encouraging hate and violence. I went to high school with several people who attempted suicide because they were gay. I knew someone who was kicked out of their family because they were gay. I defended every last one of them when they were teased and bullied and eventually the name-calling lead to me being referred to as a, “dyke bitch”. Thankfully, I was strong enough to overcome any name-calling and continue to defend kids because the bottom line was, I would not have felt proud to have seen a fellow-classmate die because of student-on-student abuse. Where were the adults in all of this equation? They failed to enforce proper suspensions. They did not see what happened in the hallways between class. They did not try to properly educate their students about acceptance and understanding. They were too busy causing a ruckus to encourage ignorance. This is crazy. Fostering environments that allow for children and youth to experience hate like that is a keen example of a sick society. And yes, I blame the parents.
3) How do you show your support for this elective/class, Social Justice. Do I write a letter to the Ministry of Education, my MLA or to the federal gov't? All of them? Or is there something more that I could do to ensure this continues to be a part of the BC school curriculum?
Karl Barth
1 year ago
Perry
Thanks for reading what I'm saying correctly. At least we both agree on what I am saying, even if we don't agree on the correctness of it.
I would love for someone to tell me the difference between education and indoctrination. The only difference is that with indoctrination there is usually some sort of undermining of a prior educational system which happens.
Now the question should be asked do parent have a right to choose what kind of education their children shall receive? yes. Has anyone besides me actually read the Universal Declaration of Human Rights? (it's not very big, go and read it)
Second question, do parents have the right to freely believe whatever the heck they want? yes, see the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms... not really a disputed point so I'll move on.
third question, Do parents have the right to raise their children in conformity with their own religious beliefs? yes. It's also a guarenteed right, not that most of you have read that right either (also guaranteed in the Treaty on Civil and political rights).
Here's one point that most people don't consider. Almost half of children who have been growing up within evangelical churches which everyone seems to hate so much, actually end up leaving anyway. So people grow up, change their mind, flip flop back and forth... big deal, so what, who cares besides other Christians?
Another thing, does it hurt the child to believe in the easter bunny, ghosts, fairies? no, and we allow them to entertain these because we don't feel like bursting their bubble. Eventually Christians along with everyone else will grow up and deal with some critical thinking issues... I hope.
In the mean time, there is no reason for the state to claim any of the rights of parents. Maric McDonald is a fool if she really believes that all Christians do is stick their heads in the sand a scream whenever they here something they don't believe in.
As for those people who would rather waste their time reading Christopher Hitchens, those are the real people who want to stick their heads in the sand and scream because they cannot handle other people's right to be accomodated.
Last point, most people tend to consider other christian and extreme Muslims ect when they consider the religion. It is easy to confuse some people's practice of religion with the religion itself, keep that in mind when you make comparisons.
As for that Moron who commented on Hitler and Stalin as religous folks, for one Hitler knocked off many of the Christians who disagreed with him along with the Jews, (Cf. Dietrich Bonhoeffor). And Stalin just seemed to take out as many religious folks as he could if they didn't suit his ideals.
My own great grandmother along with many other Christians who were in Holland did their best to smuggle Jews out of the country, and she was a Christian. Some people are just plain ignorant when they comment.
Karl Barth
1 year ago
Booker
I never have, nor am I saying Christian education should exist within the public school system, or any religious education for that matter. What is wrong with you, can't you read?
Karl Barth
1 year ago
Batiushka
You say that Christianity is not a religion... are you kidding me? It's a very trendy thing to say "It's not a religion it's a relationship," it's also naieve
From the Bible, Jesus own student writes that "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." James 1.27
Romeogolf
1 year ago
After Gays, Who's Next?
Think the Christian right will just stop at gays? The immigrants don't know the history of their predecessors in Canada. Who do they think helped create a multicultural society? Who fights it?
grub
1 year ago
Freedom FROM religion
@Karl; As a parent you ought NOT to have the ability to determine curriculum. Are you expert in physics? Math? Geography? Likely not. Thus, you have little or nothing to add to the discussion of curriculum.
Romeogolf
1 year ago
Education vs. Indoctrination
@Karl Barth
"I would love for someone to tell me the difference between education and indoctrination."
One normally consults a dictionary.
lemonheart
1 year ago
It's all very nice...
Why is it the most messed up people I have ever met in school or otherwise came from a "family" where whatever religion was stuffed down the throat from day one?
The poor kids don't even have a say- they're doomed from the get go. It's horribly sad actually.... then some get into office!
lynn
1 year ago
A compass for a minefield.
We can spend our lives building endless barbwire fences made to restrict and constrict diversity of belief and thought.... or we can teach our children how to both protect themselves, and expand their universe through the generous use of critical thought.... with hopefully a little generosity of spirit, too.
Chris H
1 year ago
Karl, you should do yours!
The only real curriculum is the K-12 prescribed learning outcomes found in the IRPs. The curriculum support guides that recommend resources are there to help support those PLOs, but it is up to each individual teacher to decide what resources they use and how they teach the prescribed learning outcomes.
Nothing significant changed with the Corren Agreement except the introduction of the Social Justice 12 course because teachers from kindergarten to grade 12 were already using these resources and teaching their students the reality of what is Canadian society.
I find that most religious nutbars opt their children out of the public system and either home school them or send them to independent religious schools anyway. So, there is your parent choice well at work!
Teachers are seeing more children with openly homosexual parents in their classrooms and there is NO WAY they can ignore that. I think we have seen enough bullying, violence, and deaths in the past to know this is serious stuff. Even the BC Liberals have jumped on the anti-bullying day and are wearing pink! You think that didn't start because of homophobia?
Yes, let's keep the kids safe. Not by indoctrination, but by teaching. Or, do you teach your kids that it is ok to hate gay people? That is ok to call them names and belittle them? That they are somehow bad because of who they are? Because that is what we are fighting against and why the Correns are heroes.
I am happy that my children are learning to be tolerant, and that includes christians, jews, muslims, and all other religions. Hey, it's ok that one kid has pork hotdogs and the other kid doesn't because it is against his/her religion. The school's not indoctrinating students during hotdog day, are they?
Believe me, things are ok. Don't use the "religious freedom" argument to be intolerant.
Booker
1 year ago
Sorry Karl
Your position was a bit confusing and I thought you wanted to "accommodate" them by allowing their religious views to be presented in the school rather than just have them leave. I disagree with the latter position too, however. We all have things that we disagree with in school and religious disagreements should not be given special dispensation. A kid with young-earth creationist parents would basically have to skip every science course to avoid having their beliefs put into question. Hearing a view that contradicts your own religious position is not a violation of religious freedom. It's an important part of life to hear various positions on the issues.
KWD
1 year ago
Romeogolf
Surely you can do better than that.
Education opens doors; indoctrination closes them.
oldstyle
1 year ago
Religion is simply social programming
First let me state that I have firm spiritual and Christian beliefs, and parts of my belief system would not meet with any religious acceptence.
Whenever you have even a small group of people getting together a dynamic takes place where the group attempts to learn about individual members so that a group "mind" can be formed to create a boundary for that group's acceptance of one another. In other words they all have to think somewhat along the same lines as one another. Just try and be a free member of most any society and you will be outcast rather quickly.
The dynamics that all groups, including general populations, employ is nothing short of programming. In fact most of our early education is about programming and the science of yesterday is part of the mix. We are not taught to think for ourselves in the public education system.
The bigots and prejudicial are most often those that do not think for themselves, and the group mind thinks for them. They may believe that they are supporting their brothers and sisters within a religious group, but in fact they are not free to think for themselves. If any do strive for individual freedom of thought and speech they are quickly ousted from the group.
The group holds their minds captive and when you add in the psychology of feeling safe with what you're familiar with then it takes a strong person to break away from the group mind.
Another reason why breaking away from a group mind is difficult is because one has to embrace self responsibility. This means letting go of victimhood and letting go of blame as the group mind almost always chooses to blame someone or something.
When someone thinks individually and differently from ourselves then we should applaud them for their courage because they broke through their prison bars, but usually we ridicule those freedom fighters and try to get them back into their cell. We are not comfortable with outsiders, and there is a dirty little unspoken rule... "If I can't have it, then you can't have it!"
This is what is happening. These are the dynamics and there is no need to rage about them... we just need to be aware for ourselves and learn to liberate our own hearts and minds from the group so we too can be free.
What's the name of your organization?
Finewine
1 year ago
Fundamentalism
Gay children have a right to go to a school system where they are not ostracized, made to feel abnormal, immoral, or otherwise perverted. And the heterosexual children of gay parents have those rights also. We must stop the high rate of suicide of these children by confronting and immunizing all of our children from the ignorance of the fundamentalists.
docleslie
1 year ago
Get busy people
It's up to the people of this country to rise up, mobilize and smash the Christian Right—including Stephen Harper—now. Before they ruin life as we know it and cast us back into another medieval Dark Ages. Do you actually want Canada to be the cesspool of religious bigotry and aspiring theocracy that the U.S is? In case any of you haven't seen it, rent and watch the scariest movie of all times: "Jesus Camp."
mary jane
1 year ago
hungry kids
Is it christian to have hungry kids Never mind the rest. Harpo voted to keep poverty in place. No need to say more.
As I remember it - we have had real christians Tommy Douglas and bc's own WC Benett I believe history tells us they actually worked for the good of Canadians without so much bickering. Correct me it I am wrong
Now we have a gorup of - - - - who know nothing about the good of the people or our country would be very different
Romeogolf
1 year ago
Grunt Work
@KWD
Oh, I can, but finding the definition of a word is something everyone beyond elementary school should be able to do on their own. Arguing over the definition, or which one is applicable, is another matter.
docleslie
1 year ago
Christianity exposed
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=362659&id=100000115295456&subject=8798180154&ref=mf
samuidave (not verified)
1 year ago
One irony is how much time....
... parents or an association will use up to complain about the ideas being taught in the public school while allowing their little mini-me to sit in front of a TV set for three or four hours a day.
A few thoughts:
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." ~ Herbert Spencer
"the truth, like art, is in the eye of the beholder: You believe what you choose; I'll believe what I know." ~ Kevin Spacey in the movie, 'Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil'
"So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence." ~ Bertrand Russell
Learning is about ideas, and ideas are like experiences: we collect them as we wander through life. Some folks seek them out, others avoid them. Regardless, what we do with our collection of ideas (or experiences) is determined by how we are taught to think.
Without possessing the skills of critical and rational thought, 'ideas' can become dangerous for their holder. I believe this is where schools are coming up short. Children are stupefied by ideas collected but never rationally understood. Rote learning is the default tool in the teacher's otherwise barren toolbox.
Instead of bickering about whether religion or homosexuality should be exposed to children in school at an appropriate time, should not our efforts be focused on how our children should be taught to rationally think? On how to develop their analytical tools to do just that?
I am not a religious man, but I do not think God would give us a reasoning brain not to use it to its fullest capacity.
aorangi
1 year ago
Harper and religion
The word "faith" is a theological word that dosen't explain itself. It demands no logic, no science, no explation, no proof of what it's about and it must never be questioned. What it does demand is absolute belief, loyalty to something supernatural and obedience to its laws.
"Don't rail against religion, science will do the job for you".
Charles Darwin.
pwillis
1 year ago
The Squeaky Wheel
Unfortunately deference is always given to those who lobby the government. This is done regardless of the rule of democracy, and usually instigated by politicians as a covert attempt to spite it. After all; that noise is coming from the majority, isn't it?
It's time to remove public funding from private schools in B.C. . If parents want private (religious) education, they should pay completely for private education.
Also, why is it somehow O.K. to support and accede to delusional religious traditions simply because they are traditionally acceptable. It's time to remove the tax free status of churches and call them what they are, businesses of superstition. Religion is a business.
greengreen
1 year ago
Education vs. Indoctrination
I think a distinction needs to be made between indoctrination and education. Religious instruction is not about education, but about training and indoctrination into a set of beliefs. This can be handled in the home, in churches, mosques etc., and in private schools.
Public schooling is about education, about the exposure to ideas, and critical thinking, not about the rote memorization of some particular brand of beliefs. It isn't about mind control, but mind opening.
Stephanie T
1 year ago
I am absolutely sick to
I am absolutely sick to death of people comparing religious freedom with the right to be free to be yourself. Let's get a couple of things straight. First of all, whether or not to associate with a like minded group of people (religion) is a CONSCIOUS, PERSONAL CHOICE: being gay IS NOT. Belonging to a group of like minded people and following the established customs and beliefs of said group is a CONSCIOUS, PERSONAL LIFESTYLE CHOICE: being gay IS NOT. Being gay (or in my case Trans-gendered) is not something you choose to do, it is who you are, it is an integral part of your being. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a product of either ignorance or fear or more than likely equal amounts of both. Anyone who is so terrified of their children learning there are people different than them are, in my opinion, not fit to be parents. Like many have said up-thread, children should be taught critical thinking skills and exposed to as many different ideas as possible. They are a lot smarter than most people give them credit for.
cityboy
1 year ago
Bigots have rights too
Just as communists, socialists, Christians, Muslims, atheists, union members, stock brokers, senior citizens, the rich, the poor, and many other groups in society deserve to be respected and have equal rights politially, bigots should have politial parties that represent them. Fortunately they have the Harper Conservatives and the Campbell Liberals that welcome them and promote their interests.
sicntired
1 year ago
Harper's agenda
What happened to the separation of church and state?I found it interesting that the NAZI reference failed to remember that gays were one of the groups the Nazi's picked for eradication.This in spite of the large number of gays in the Nazi leadership.It is often the case that those who scream the loudest harbor feelings of homosexuality themselves.The fact that religion is once again causing us to line up against one another is troubling.The religious right is trying to bring about armageddon as soon as possible.These people are truly scary.Intolerance has always been one of the religious right's more troubling facets.
Camero409
1 year ago
Karl Barth
From what you've posted here I can see you want to live your failures though the successes of your childern. Your no different than the father that pushes his son to be a hockey star because he wasn't, the mother who wants her daughter to be a movie star because she couldn't be. Similarily, you want your children to continue your beliefs without and outside interference. You certainly don't want them to think for themselves do you. Your push to have children marginalised learning experiences is clearly displayed though your posts. It's as bad as that old saying from the 50's regrding women. "Keep'em barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen". How dare you kids have the freedom of thought to make up their own minds.
Frank
1 year ago
Karl Barth
You have the right to tell your children what you want. You don't have the right to make the school system conform to your beliefs any more than I do.
Its not like I like the fact that the philosophy of Michael Walker and Michael Campbell is taught in public schools, but I accept it.
miali
1 year ago
Religion VS Spirituality
I was born a heterosexual, Irish, white female. Can't do much about these conditions.I can, however, think for myself. As I have aged, religion/politics have morphed. I grew up saying the Lord's Prayer every morning in school; not so my children.As a society we put enormous energy into seperation & segregation instead of personal growth & expression - is this a cover up for a collective lack of creativity? Join a group & tell me how to think? Thank God, higher power, whomever, that I am an outsider & can form my own conclusions. My friendships are without borders. Try it, you'll like it!
Keep up the good work, Murray Corren. We need examples of good living people from all walks of life in our school system & society in general to counter act the influence of our well meaning experts.
Luck
1 year ago
religion and politics???
Why pick on the christians.
Most mainstream people do not belive in it so why use it and disguise it as such.
Our christian traditions have been cannibalized and watered down to an unbelievable point.
If you think about, immigrants coming in do not know are history or understand our political system.
When immigrants run for office they want to change the laws just like our liberals are doing.
Most can't or won't learn our official languages.
Just sit back BC people and let the immigrants take over as they are doing fine.
As for taliban most immigrants support them as they believe canadians do not understand religion or religious wars.
As one writer explains armegeddon and the rapture are coming thats the only thing that counts.
You know, I tend to agree also.
maned
1 year ago
Fear of a different perspective
When people would rather plug their ears (or their children's ears) and refuse to even consider another perspective, it tells me that on some level, they doubt the veracity of their own perspective. And that they believe in indoctrination, not education.
A person who thinks he is never wrong can never learn anything; I think that anyone who's a follower of Christian doctrine should know better than to think that any human being is perfect.
(Of course, you don't have to be a follower of Christian doctrine to know that!)
peace.
Batiushka
1 year ago
Try to pick on Muslims
Yeah yeah, everybody pick on Christians....and Christians still exist and live in harmony with everyone.
If you try to do that with Muslims or Sikhs you will have to pay the price....you do not mess with them...remember what that silly cartoon from Denmark caused? That's why in name of multiculturalism we are accepting all these people in a Christian country. You probably forgot or is not aware of how Christians are treated in these non Christian countries, does not matter if you Christian or not if do not follow their religious laws you are out. I worked in the Emirates and I know what is to be a Christian in a Muslim country. Does not matter if you agree or not but Canada still a Christian country and always will be..... so respect Christians at the same way YOU non Christians respect all the others
Batiushka
1 year ago
Karl Barth - Christianity is NOT Religion
Hey Karl, take a look here:
http://www.christinyou.net/pages/Xnotrel.html
It seems like you are one of those that take only the parts of the Bible, specially the ones you like it.
" Jesus did not say, "I came that you might have religion, and practice it more faithfully," or "I came that you might have religion, and adhere to it more commitedly," or "I came that you might have religion, and define it more dogmatically," or "I came that you might have religion, and defend it more vehemently," or "I came that you might have religion, and thus behave more morally." What Jesus said was, "I came that you might have life, and have it more abundantly" (John 10:10). The life that He came to bring and express within us and through us is His life. "I AM the way, the truth and the life," declared Jesus to His disciples (John 14:6). The apostle John wrote that "He that has the Son has life; he that does not have the Son does not have life" (I John 5:12). "Christ is our life," is the phrase Paul uses in writing to the Colossians (Col. 3:4), for Christianity is not "religion," but the life of Jesus Christ expressed in receptive humanity."
G West
1 year ago
No need to pick on 'anyone'
All that needs to be repeated here are a few words from Chief Justice Beverley McLachlin who RIGHTLY refused to acknowledge the supremacy of parents' rights. "Parental views, however important, cannot override the imperative placed upon the British Columbia public schools to mirror the diversity of the community, and teach tolerance and understanding of difference," .
That is, simply, despite Pee Wee Rambo and his fundie sidekicks, THE LAW OF THE LAND...sadly, under the Campbell regime, we may not have any 'public schools' left for much longer.
Unfortunately, the proper FUNDING of public schools and the utter irresponsibility of using taxpayer dollars to fund private schools to a greater and greater extent, is a much bigger problem in BC today.
Frank
1 year ago
Batiushka
The article is about the Christians Right. When you see an article about motorbikes do you claim everyone is picking on bikers?
As for Christians living in harmony with everyone, apparently they don't. It seems in fact they would prefer not to.
As for how Christians are treated in other countries, why is that relevant? All I know is that they're treated pretty good in this country, a secular country by the way unless Harper has resigned and priests are suddenly running the show.
When you no longer have churches on every corner, your own private schools and universities, your own tv and radio stations, your own print media and your zillion astroturf groups all claiming to be a charity, then you can claim the lions are at the door.
RickW
1 year ago
“A conservative......
......believes nothing should be done for the first time.”
- Thomas Fuller
dorothy
1 year ago
Beliefs and such
"..I'm going to criticize your belief -- your belief that your beliefs cannot be commented on. What a boring world that would be. No more political discussions, no more Tyee, no more Dorothy.."
Hello! I’m not talking about political opinion, but about belief, as in religious or spiritual belief. Of course you cannot comment on that, for first you would have to know what it was, and I do not generally share that information with other than my fellow believers. Since my belief set does not contain a dictum to convert others, there is no call for me to discuss religion with others, ERGO it is different from the religions of those who cram theirs down the throats of others, saying that God in one form or another told them they had to do so. It is always remarkable, to what extent non-compliance from the unbelievers is then the basis for violence and robbery and other kinds of Jihad. Makes the religious motives somewhat suspect in my eyes.
So, yes, we can have discussions about politics and social values, but those are not beliefs. They are the varying results of our respective attempts at thinking optimally. They are also about issues we all share a legitimate interest in. The only legitimate interest I can see in another’s religion would be if one is still searching for a belief and think that that of the other guy might suit, so a desire to learn about it comes up.
The cramming, by the way is how I would translate ‘religious activism’. Unfortunately, Dawkins et al do not limit themselves to only go against religious ‘activism’. Some of their proponents go so far that they would advocate that children be removed from parents who attempted to teach them ANY religion. Being a parent who tried ‘secular humanism’ as a basis for teaching life skills, and who has now come under fire from the next generation, who considers that that was grossly inadequate, you can imagine my sense of irony hearing from Dawkins and such people, that religious teaching is bordering on child-abuse.
dorothy
1 year ago
Shall we go hug a tree?
“..The GLBT community is not a religious community. It is a secular, HUMAN community and its claims to constitutional human rights are not the same as religious freedom claims..”
I am certainly not confused about that. I was solely addressing Dawkins and his attacks on religion in any form. I do not know how that got attached to the GLBT cause, as it is really two completely different things, that just happen to have a common enemy.
Now about the curriculum. I am divided on that. Not because I am any kind of bigoted. I am just wondering about what kind of message it actually sends to the youngsters that this issue gets singled out the way it does. I am convinced children are astute enough to turn suspicious of anything that people make such effort to make a case for. I think it would be a far sounder approach to simply take alternative kinds of living in stride, whenever they come up naturally as they will in daily life. I worked over the years with a whole host of gay and lesbian people and have always, to the little tsk,tsk, he is…YOU know..” replied – ‘and?’ I think I may have managed to teach a little there to a few people, at least maybe started them on examining their attitudes.
The whole way this and other specific protected categories are listed in the Charter is really messed up. The rights of the ‘protected groups’ are in reality not more protected than those of anyone. The charter does not say ‘only’, it says ‘specifically’. The reason for that is historical. It was thought prudent to name these categories ‘specifically’, since many people had traditionally believed that those were legitimate grounds for discrimination. The UN declaration, which we are supposedly ratifying in our charter, says that ‘any discrimination for any reason whatsoever’ is prohibited. This would seem to be all-encompassing and should make it un-necessary to specify anything. The format used in the Charter has since to many Canadians and even law people come to mean, that if one cannot prove discrimination to fall along one of those specified lines, then the claim of discrimination has no merit. This is wrong. The ‘absolute’ understanding in the UN declaration means that if two parties that should expect equal dealing do not get it, then there is discrimination, and that is prohibited. This should for instance make it a lot harder for favoritism in the workplace to get the free ride it is getting now, because people cannot prove why they are being shafted.
Shelbz
1 year ago
Faith
People are afraid, and confused. Our faith has been stolen away from mother nature; faith in the regeneration of food and water, faith in the seasons, faith in our own potential as biological entities. Instead we have faith in imaginary things like God and the economy. I can't imagine why all of these imaginary problems are consuming us...
elbillug
1 year ago
Spot the FoxNews Weenie
"Not since Adolf Hitler prepared a generation of German and Austrian youth for war," he fumed, "has so grand a strategy been attempted."
funny how you can tell the Fox-news weenies these days from their constant sad attempts at comparing their opponents to Hitler/Nazis
elbillug
1 year ago
Harper?
Did I miss the Harper connection? The title talks about Harper, but I found no reference to him in the actual article. Or is it pre-requisite for any discussion that touches religion to point a finger at Harper these days?
Far from me to defend the robot, but I c'mon, all of this has been argued endlessly well before he got to power, and I don't see anything in the article pointing the religious arguments having gotten stronger with Harper in power. If anything the article seems to me to indicate that the religious right is on the defensive, not the offensive.
dorothy
1 year ago
How we grow up and go on
"..older generations who fail to realize that by not promoting acceptance of societal differences, it ultimately ends up encouraging hate and violence. "
I think it is actually one degree worse than that. I do not think, generally, that children and young people, left to their own devices, will develop mobbing tendencies and bigotry, as I have never experienced this in my own children, and I have done nothing to tell them that they 'must' accept diversity. We must, I am certain, look to ourselves for those attitudes that separate along lines which bear no relevance to the worth or worthiness of individuals. I think children are far more astute than we give them credit for. We do not guard our tongues. I work in an immensely diverse environment and hear at least three -ist remarks per week, just as part of normal speech. Maybe my rate is higher than that of most people would be, since I serve in capacities that make it natural for people to vent to me, but I still think there is much more out there than we are generally willing to acknowledge.
If we are to try to do anything in school, I think we should address diversity IN GENERAL by adopting the habit of discussing such issues when they come up naturally,rather than segregating them into a little section by themselves. What are we doing by telling stuff like 'two mummies'? Messing with the understanding of biology is what we are. Rather, we should discuss what constitutes a family, and why. I am a member of a very humdrum nuclear family with three shared offspring, but my extended family includes people of at least eight different ethnic backgrounds and four sorts of sexual orientation. They are my family, because I would miss them sorely from a party if they didn't appear, and I care what happens to them and will be supportive of them to the extent of my abilities, and they will do the same for me. This kind of thing does more than mere 'tolerance', which is a poor concept to begin with.
'Intolerance' springs from fear. there is no exception to that. So we should aim to bring up strong people, whom it takes a lot to ruffle, and who believe in themselves and others. That is our best shot at overcoming bigotry. You can legislate till you're blue in the face, its still the attitude.
HARPER? Are you kidding? this whole debate has been about nothing but Harper! It's about the legitimacy of his 'mission' to stamp out irregular people, or as he and his cohort term it, 'protecting family values'.
zalm
1 year ago
Boy
This got nasty right off the bat. I hope succeeding articles...and comments... are a little more tolerant of the vast majority of "Christians" that wouldn't turn to face Harper's vapid mug unless it was painted on the urinal they were pissing in.
Most Christians are going along, trying to get along. Some aren't. Perhaps we need a few lessons in the art of drawing the distinction, a class during which some of you were obviously out behind the gym smoking.
zalm
1 year ago
Karl Barth
"But I also don't think that kids should be taught in contradiction to their parents' beliefs and convictions"
Let me change you into a Jehovah's Witness and change your comment to:
"But I also don't think that kids should be medically treated in contradiction to their parents' beliefs and convictions.
I think the Supremes settled that one for us - if your kids are old enough to fully evaluate the consequences of their actions, then they're allowed to make the decision. If not, or under 16 - nope - the law rules.
This, of course, is in plain contradiction to the notion that some of the adults here might have any better idea than your average six-year-old about what was good for them and why.... nevertheless, it is the law.
Religion (particularly the Abrahamic traditions) is starting to have to become accountable as a result of the enlightenment. This makes one appreciate the struggles and efforts of religious scientists such as Darwin, Faraday and Planck to honestly marry their convictions with their discoveries and to reconcile both to the greater glory of (fill in the name of your shibboleth here).
Would that we were able to do the same, with so many more tools, so much more information, and so much leisure to do it in.
tmbluesbflat
1 year ago
Christianity
I find it odd that the so called Christian right is so involved in the making of war on behalf of the USA which country appears to be run By Israel. Very odd!! Also they claim some sort of aclaim, but it would appear that they and their kind through the last many hundreds of years have burned witches and other variants of folk, but seem to be also moste responsible for criminal sexual deviancy including child sexual perversion and abuse. Do any intelligent folk want anything to do with these perverts? I do not consider homosexuals to be perverts nor do I believe lesbians are perverts they are a very natural variation of the human species and have their counter parts in other species. What I consider QUEER/WRONG are those that preach hate and with hippocracy, some cock eyed religious crap. Those that preach about CHRIST know nothing atall about what he said was"I SET YOU FREE, I AM AS ARE WE ALL THE SONS AND SISTERS OF GOD" nothing more and nothing less! What he meant by the first was he set us all free from churches priests and so called religions, So The prime minister a Zionist if ever there was one is insinuating his criminal beliefs into our government and that is dead wrong and he should be dissmissed post haste!