snert

It was Canada's reputation I was referring to (which was crystal clear from the context)...not Haiti's. I've no right to sit in judgment on the success or failure of any other state and I'm surprised you'd venture there.

Perhaps you're not aware of Haiti's history.

G West

I am aware of Haiti's history hence the "black hole" reference and I'm not referring to the skin colour of the inhabitants, just the way aid money vaporizes.

As far as Canada's reputation being less than stellar, at least it has one in the area.

Umm - sounds pretty ignorant to me

Haiti happens to be the first black self-governing state in the world - and a place that has suffered depredations and cruelty on a scale North Americans can't comprehend - the appellation 'black hole' is a racist smear.

At least it doesn’t suffer from a self-important and purblind colonial mentality.

Canada's reputation in Haiti is also smeared by the fact that we were party to the overthrow of a democratically elected government there.

At least Haiti doesn't interfere in other people's affairs so self-righteously.

G West

Just who is concerned about that right now. You know, I'd almost be willing to bet money that you're the only one. Almost.

Only if you wish to hijack the context. Nice try though.

Every Canadian ought to be

[OFFENSIVE COMMENT DIRECTED AT ANOTHER COMMENTER REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

Editors

There was nothing offensive about suggesting that my interlocutor doesn't use the language very well...furthermore, the suggestion that a country like Haiti, which has the lowest per capita income in the Western Hemisphere (pre-earthquake) is somehow a black hole for aid money is totally absurd.

The country had more than 50% unemployment before the earthquake - what it needs is money and lots of it and snert's suggestions ought to have been offensive to every Canadian. As I pointed out.

If he, or anyone, cares to take the time to actually do some research into the history and causes of Haiti’s malaise they would come to a different conclusion.

The only black hole is the one into which white America (and I include Canada in that grouping) has been more than prepared to shovel the people of Haiti for generations.

G West

The question is not, what can we do for Haiti but what can the Haitians do for themselves to ensure that their country will not continue to be a black hole for aid money, present circumstances excepted.

I'm sorry but the Haitian people have to make this move themselves before any significant changes such as those you suggest can take place.

Further to this neither Canada nor any other country, for that matter, should become a sink for another country's population problems. Solutions have to be found at home before anything will get fixed.

A country does not acquire the reputation of being like a pariah state (your words) without reason.

One might think similarly of Pat Robertson, as well. Only he's not a country.

Keep digging snert

You're the one who called it a black hole, remember.

And why pretend, you're not 'sorry' at all.

Fact of the matter is I'd like to see how long you'd last on the streets of Port au Prince 'before' the earthquake let alone after.

Because, in that society, you'd be lucky to make the $1.60/ day minimum wage...

Canada's the pariah state in my opinion - not Haiti.

They've done the best they can under terrible conditions which are mostly out of their control - we've done nothing but act like selfish morons who never see anything but their own stupid face in the mirror each morning.

They simply must make the changes themselves.

Best in this case is obviously not good enough.

I'm not sure what makes you think that I'd do any worse than I've done here. I'd bet money on just where you'd wind up though.

Since you're posting anonymously

How'd we ever know - I know I couldn't live on $1.60 a day or less either here or there - if you think you can more power to you.

If their 'best' isn't good enough I'd say that's not their fault - but of course like Gordon Campbell you probably think it's a simple matter of choosing the wrong building materials.

I know where the 'black' hole is.

Black hole, pigeon hole

Can't resist pigeon holing someone can you.

You just can not see that up to this point in time the people of Haiti collectively have made a series of errors that have kept them in their current state affairs prior to this catastrophic earth quake.

Certainly there have been outside influences, absolutely no doubt of that. The situation now is much more difficult when the quake is compounded into the problem but unless the people of Haiti make the necessary changes in attitude nothing will change after the mess is more or less cleaned up.

You can throw all the aid money at the problem you want and it will not change things one iota unless the people of Haiti change the way they treat themselves.

Baloney

That's as racist and insulting as Pat Robertson - you're reading the wrong story at Tyee.

Maybe you should take your dollar sixty a day up the site and check out Oprah and the power of positive thinking...you made the pigeon hole my friend, don't blame me because it's uncomfortable!

Sat whay you will but

Haiti is a country badly in need of a 12 step program.

They should still get support but they are going to have to want to make changes for them to effectively break the long established vicious cycles of the past.

If you think that's baloney well too bad. Nothing racist or insulting about it although you keep trying to drag that into the discussion.

So just for sake of argument what do you specifically think should be done to remove Haiti from the quagmire that it is currently in?

Double baloney

WHat the fuck are you talking about?

We're the ones with the addiction problems:
addiction to drugs; addiction to cars; addiction to too much food; addiction to our own importance; addiction to mindless consumption.

We need a 12 step program - not the Haitians - their impact on the environment is miniscule and ours - Well, we'd need about 4 worlds to supply everyone alive today with our standard of greedy excess.

So no, it's not Haiti that needs a 12 step program - it's us...

We are living in a time where the general level of knowledge and awareness is about on a par with the Dark Ages and our attitude toward the victims of our selfish excess - like the people of Haiti - is pretty typical.

Blame the victim - that's an easy target.

As for what Haiti needs - first of all bring back Jean-Bertrand Aristide.

And what about second, third and so on?

Jean-Bertrand Aristide, ah, yes he seems like a reliable sort until you get to nearer the bottom of the page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Bertrand_Aristide

You can call it blaming the victim if you want but that could also be argued as denial on your part.

Haiti needs the 12 step program, for want of better words, or at least a similar series of measures that can help the people gain both self confidence and self respect. Just throwing aid money at them and ranting on about past mistakes without offering any sensible solutions just won't cut it.

Your opinion of Canada is so low that I really don't understand how you can continue living here. You must feel very unclean. Maybe we should just pull out all our support so we don't screw things up even worse.

Baloney

We need a 12 step program because we're the addicts.

Haiti is no different, just a lot smaller problem than the world faced in 1945 when confronted with the reconstruction of a ruined continent. Then, unlike the parsimonious and mindless neocon crap one is faced with today there were some men and women of goodwill and vision - instead of making ridiculous noises about it all being their own fault the community of nations got busy and rebuilt the nations - including Germany and Japan - which were destroyed between 1939 and 1945.

Instead we have people like Pat Robertson and his Fox/Global News zombies making hateful selfish noises - begrudgingly suggesting the little we do now is misplaced and better never begun.

Pathetic - and because such attitudes are not just one in a million here in this country I AM ASHAMED of how unclean the association makes me feel.

Knowing that about 30 odd percent of the population probably shares these hateful and defeatist, not to mention prejudice-ridden ideas is a sobering thought - understanding that this same spirit seems to animate the creature who is presently the Prime Minister of this place is even more troubling.

If it were only a few cranks on the internet it would be easy to ignore.

Canada I love - it's some Canadians I can't stand.

G West

Not even remotely close to being the same as any of the countries that rebuilt after WW2, at least the ones outside the iron curtain.

None of of them were in as poor a condition as Haiti immediately before the war started. Their citizens, although badly shell shocked, at least had the will to recover their previous standards of living. Certainly they got help but the desire was there within enough people to make the recovery work.

Haiti is a big question mark at this moment and all that can be done is hope for the best.

Anyhow your doing a real nice job of avoiding practical suggestions for ensuring recovery other than the return of Jean-Bertrand Aristide which I think is a bit of a dud. Do you actually have any.

Baloney you clearly know next to nothing about that either.

I happen to have had a very close relative who was doing a grand tour with the Canadian Army at the time - and if you think the Haitians don't have a will to live and a desire to succeed and prosper you're even more clueless than I thought.

If you really want to learn something about Haiti I'd recommend Mark Danner's 'Stripping Bare the Body: Politics, Violence, War,'

Then maybe your relative

can tell you just what should be done because you can't seem to come up with any solutions of your own.

No doubt there are Haitians that really care about their country, there just doesn't seem to be enough of them to make a difference. Who knows what the critical mass should be to make the changes necessary to overcome the odds.

Then again it could be the ancient Easter Island scenario where there is just no way out. That's not something anybody would want to see.

I find it interesting that you always seem to adopt the approach that it's always the other guys fault as if the individual/s that you perceive to be wronged bear no responsibility what-so-ever.

Read the book

Please.