Tories 'Not Discounting Any Option' on Pension Reform
Key MP says need is urgent, expresses concerns about labour's idea to double CPP.
Whitehorse-bound Alberta MP Ted Menzies: 'I would like to see some changes within the current year.'
Finding a New Pension Fix
- The RRSP Mirage
- How Your Canadian Pension Benefit Could Double
- Ignatieff's Path to Pension Reform
- Tories 'Not Discounting Any Option' on Pension Reform
- BC 'Leading' National Discussion on Fixing Pensions: Hansen
- Eroding Pensions, Political Flashpoints
- Canadians Confused about Paying for Retirement: Menzies
The federal minister responsible for revamping Canada's pension system acknowledges that voluntary plans will miss many workers, but balks at proposals to make new plans mandatory. Nor does he favour a proposal to double the existing Canadian Pension Plan.
"At this point we're not discounting any option," said Ted Menzies, the member of Parliament for the Alberta riding of Macleod and the parliamentary secretary to Finance Minister Jim Flaherty.
Menzies was speaking a week before finance ministers from the provinces and the federal government meet in Whitehorse. Pension reform is on the agenda and observers are hoping for a radical reworking of how the country generates income for retired people. But while there's widespread agreement that something needs to be done, there seems to be little consensus on what that something should be.
The drop in stock values last year threatened both people's personal savings and several large pension plans, highlighting the need to review how Canadians prepare for retirement, Menzies said. "I think it's pretty urgent. I think we want to do this fairly quickly," he said. While he said he couldn't give a date, he said, "I would like to see some changes within the current year."
In Whitehorse, the ministers will discuss a report by University of Calgary policy studies professor Jack Mintz, which has not yet been released to the public. Then they'll go away and think about how they want to proceed, Menzies said. "There'll be lots of options," he said. "The bottom line is to ensure adequate retirement income for those who are retiring."
Voluntary vs. mandatory
One of the biggest questions facing the ministers is whether a new plan should be voluntary or mandatory.
Canadians have long had the option of investing in RRSPs, a voluntary savings plan that gives tax advantages for socking money away. B.C. and Alberta have proposed a supplement to the Canadian Pension Plan that would also be voluntary, allowing employees and employers to opt in or out. Michael Ignatieff's federal Liberals also this week called for a similar voluntary plan to supplement the CPP.
Asked how well it works to make it voluntary to save for retirement, Menzies said, "I'm not sure that it does. We have a voluntary system under the RRSP under its present state." Many, many people don't use it, he said, adding he hopes to gain insight on why that is in the coming weeks.
Noting that the Liberals, B.C. and Alberta are talking about voluntary plans, he said, "Are people going to use it? I'm not sure they are."
That does not, however, mean that he and the Conservative government support a plan like the current CPP where workers and employers have to contribute. "I'm not suggesting mandatory. I'm not sure that's the way either."
What lies in the middle between voluntary and mandatory is yet to be determined, but Menzies suggests a plan that gives people options and provides incentives to use them could work. The Conservative-introduced Tax Free Savings Accounts, which allow investment income to accumulate tax free, have proven popular, he said. Someone who started early using a TFSA could save a lot of money before they retire, he said.
Libs like CPP supplement
The federal Liberals announced this week that they support a voluntary system to supplement the CPP, like the one B.C. and Alberta have proposed. "We're calling on the government to implement a supplementary CPP that would be on a voluntary basis for employees and employers," said Judy Sgro, the party's critic for veterans affairs, seniors and pensions.
Five of the provinces support supplementing the CPP, she said, and it would be good to get all of them on side. "We don't want provinces off doing their own thing."
The federal government needs to be encouraged to help make a national change happen, she said. "I think they still feel the province is responsible for pensions and they have a very small role to play. We're trying to convince them otherwise."
Asked if another voluntary plan would achieve the desired goals, she said, "This is just the beginning from our party's position."
She dismissed, however, the idea of making the new plan mandatory. Nor do the Liberals support the proposal -- endorsed by the Canadian Association of Retired Persons, the Canadian Labour Congress, the federal New Democratic Party -- to double the CPP, at least not soon.
It's a difficult time for many companies and not the time to add expenses for them by requiring them to pay more into the CPP or another plan, Sgro said. "You have to be sensitive to the impact this has on an employer," she said. "At this moment increasing it would be a bad idea."
Nor, she said, would increasing CPP payments be popular. "Many people would consider it a tax on them."
Changing people's minds about it will require a lot of education, she said.
Doubling CPP expensive: Menzies
While Menzies has said every option will be considered at the Whitehorse meeting, he too was critical of the proposal to double the CPP.
"That's a pretty expensive option," he said. To do it would require taking 20 per cent off people's wages, he said.
"That sounds pretty good if you're already retired," he said. "If we've got people who can't afford an RRSP right now, what are they going to say if we say you have to put 20 percent of your income into a mandatory RRSP?"
The CLC calculates that a 2.8 per cent increase in contributions, and matching contributions from the employer that would bring it to under 15 per cent of income would be sufficient to double payments under the CPP. They advocate easing in the change over a seven- to 10-year period.
Menzies also said there is strength in having retirement savings spread out in diverse plans. "I have concerns about putting that many eggs in one basket," he said.
The CPP already sits on large amounts of money and doubling it would make it even more of a "market mover" with the power to make or break stocks with its managers' investment decisions. Plus, he said, the economies of scale savings some have promoted would likely prove elusive. "You couldn't double its fund without increasing its investment costs."
There may be ways to bring the administration costs down on the myriad plans that now exist, he said, adding that's one of the things the finance ministers will look at in Whitehorse. "Canada's cost for administration for a lot of those funds is excessively high."
Political challenge
"I am starting to think there should be mandatory pension coverage," said Harry Satanove, an actuary and pension advisor with Satanove and Flood Consulting Ltd.
"I didn't always have that view, but I've been in this business long enough to see people not taking advantage of the opportunities they have to save for retirement," he said.
Increasing the CPP is worth considering, he said, but added he hasn't seen the reports that give the details.
"It has to be actuarially sound," he said. It could be phased in but it would be unfair to ask current workers to pay for higher pensions for people who've already retired. "We shouldn't be relying on our kids and grandkids to pay for our pensions."
Demographics alone would make that tough, given the increasing number of people over 65 years old, Satanove said. "We shouldn't have our kids having to subsidize us baby boomers. There's not enough of them to support all of us."
Politicians and others who look closely at the issue understand why retirement saving has to be done in some form that's mandatory, he said. It's still politically hard though, he added, saying many will view it as a tax. "People know what needs to be done, but politically it's not always there."
Financial education needed
Over the year he's been working on the pension file, Menzies said, he's learned a lot. Even when opportunities to save are open to people, they often don't take them, he said. "I never realized how little people know about or actually plan for their retirement."
In Whitehorse, the chair of the government's financial literacy task force will give a presentation. Education is a provincial matter, and the federal government can't order provinces to add financial literacy to their school curricula, but it would be nice if they would, he said. "We'd sure like to see some sort of a plan."
When a 22-year-old takes a new job, she or he needs to ask not just when the days off will be, but also if there's a pension plan, Menzies said. If there's not, he added, they should be asking the employer for suggestions on how they might start building retirement savings.
"That young person should not just think about today, they should be thinking about tomorrow and retirement," he said.
The ministers will look at the issues "reasonably and responsibly," he said. Like Hansen, he prefers a national solution, though he admits to having some doubt it will come together soon. "I don't think it's going to be one big change across the country." ![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
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Jerry Munro
2 years ago
Revolution or "Suck It Up"...
"That young person should not just think about today, they should be thinking about tomorrow and retirement," Menzies said.
And I'm here today, as one of those "once" young folks who was going to be young, handsome and virile beyong belief forever, to tell you that you should take this... I'd say "fascist", but okay, what is in the acceptable polite parlance of the times... Conservative minister of the Harper Regime entirely seriously.
Except I know as well, of course, in this age of post "socialized and regulated" capitalism, a system returning to its past oppressive ruling class Industrial Revolution age roots, that unless you're one of those extreme few who was born with a golden spoon stuck in your yap, you're poop out of luck. And you don't have the organized (labour movement) working class I had to rely on, to assist your getting a decent wage that will include a decent pension. So, in all likelihood you have a stout pole in this regard, stuck up your butt.
(That "organized working class" which was, is itself now part of "the system" that is now there in place to "manage" you. i.e. to help keep you in place and non-threatening to the ruling class.)
Which is all why, of course, if there's any courage or brains left out there amongst my fellow working masses, especially you "young person", you should be out there right now organizing the next stage of The Revolution. Because you are going to need one, to get anywhere near back what these Ted Menzies of capitalism are now in the process are taking back from you... what was the birth right the last Great Generation of the working class fought and won for you. (We've all gotten old and are starting to die off :-) So much for living forever.)
Aye. To get that "decent" standard of living and security that you are going to need to keep the persons you are going to love, and the fruit of your loins thriving, to say nothing of a "quality environment" that will even be worth living in, you're going to need to put the earth shaking fear of your power into "them".... the ruling class. (And those like Menzies and his ilk who serve them.) It's that or shut the frig up and just suck it up, like everybody else is around you right now. Or numb yourself to it by staying stoned throughout the rest of your life.
I "suggest" the revolution option as the better course for you and all you will want the world to be.
My view.
As old as I am, I'll even help to the degree I can.
RickW
2 years ago
Look who's talking about pensions, for goodness' sake!
I notice that our MP's don't have any trouble whatsoever with their own pension plans......
Do ANY OF THEM have the faintest idea past their own gold-plated perks?
Luke
2 years ago
Comrade Coyoteman...
As you stated in another thread:
That certainly contravenes social democracy as confirmed by former New Democrat Premier Mike Harcourt's statement to the Globe & Mail:
So how do you reconcile former premier Mike Harcourt's pragmatic social democratic viewpoint with your above comment:
Perhaps you should join your brothers in arm in North Korea under the "Dear Leader" and post your thoughts here on the Tyee. I'm sure that many would enjoy your thoughts of "utopia". :D
As for suggesting violent revolution, good luck to ya and I hope that CSIS investigates you on behalf of the other 99.9% of the population. ;)
Jerry Munro
2 years ago
Revolution, Obama and Wall St...
Wellll, outside of being a little fussy about who my comrades are.... at least I can say that I am not now, nor have I ever been either a US Empire Loyalist or a fascist dressed up as a Conservative.
We all have our histories, and Luke has to live with his no less. :-)
Though, to satisfy any curiosities: the degree to which I am still a "communist", as it has evolved, is much more as part of a much older anarcho-communist school of political think. Not only am I not a member of the much more dangerous, from a working class perspective, Conservative Party, but I am not a member of ANY political party. (If that ever changes, and I don't expect that it will, I will inform y'all.:-)
And my advocacy is for a peaceful, or at least a "peaceful as can be" revolution, that democratizes control over the economy into worker-citizen hands, and transforms the state upon that basis into, at the very least, a truly proportional representative system of governance. And hopefully, as the class issue gets resolved, political parties can be dispensed with altogether.
Outside of all that, for which I thank Luke for the opportunity to elaborate on, I am a Canadian, with no questionable "foreign" loyalties, unlike in the case of Conservatives and even Liberals of course, for sure... of which the record speaks volumes.
Now, where were we? Oh, yes, that need for a revolution in society.
____________________________________________________
It was reported on CNN this morning.... Because I was making breakfast at the time, I did not get all the details. ...that at a recent meeting Obama had with "top" Wall St. people, at which these business leaders expressed concerns about a growing atmosphere of public anger rising against them, Obama warned them saying, that his government was aware of it as well.
He then suggested to them, "You should know as well, if you do not already, that all that stands between you and the rising tide of "pitchforks" out there on the street, is me."
The CNN personalities were a little curious about what he might have meant by that, though they conceded a rising public "rage". But it really doesn't take a great deal of brains to understand that he was talking about a rising risk of masses of people on the streets of America again. They know it, as well as you and I.
An economic, political and larger social climate leading to the possibility of revolutionary upheavals is not a situation the working class has created. It is a natural consequence of cause and effect still unfolding and evolving in our societies.
And Obama, regardless of what I might think of him otherwise, gets it. Right now, he is all that stands between the ruling class and "the pitchforks". And he fails at their peril.
Jerry Munro
2 years ago
Abolish The State :-)
For more info on "Libertarian Marxism", which is closer to my political view than either anarcho-communism or Communism per se, you might want to read the link belowe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_Marxism
Just so we are entirely clear with each other. :-)
There are Christians and christians, Capitalism supporters and capitalism supporters (Liberal, Conservative, Social Dem), and no less there are Communists and communists.
Have confusing fun with it. :-) Just to complicate your life.
lynn
2 years ago
"Pursued by the Empire's sinister agents....."
Quote:
"Wellll, outside of being a little fussy about who my comrades are.... at least I can say that I am not now, nor have I ever been either a US Empire Loyalist or a fascist dressed up as a Conservative.
We all have our histories, and Luke has to live with his no less. :-)"
Loved reading that....as the not-easily-fooled.... and always young-at-heart coyoteman, nails it brilliantly here....in identifying the guise of the real traitors to the Canadian people these days....and where the real ruse and treachery in need of investigation actually lies.
And Luke's attempt to smear here coyly avoids the violent weaponry of the corporate world itself - the artillery of the walking dead - sly, intentionally insidious and covert, but brutal and deadly all the same.
You must remember, Luke, ( and I say this in my best Obi-Wan Kenobi voice ;-)) that "a rising tide of pitchforks" is a response.
A "response" to the ever-escalating levels of both aggression and oppression.
And to the resulting tragic.....often violent effect of that on individual lives.
That rising tide, just like in nature, is feeling the heavy weight of forces (oppressively) pulling upon it....without let up.
And as coyoteman notes here:
Quote:
"And Obama, regardless of what I might think of him otherwise, gets it. Right now, he is all that stands between the ruling class and "the pitchforks". And he fails at their peril."
RickW
2 years ago
Luke
"Violent revolution" has been part of the hitory of EVERY country to the present. Now suppose you tell me why it will be "different" here. We just haven't hit the trigger point......yet.
SharingIsGood
2 years ago
who should csis defend, Luke
Should CSIS stand on guard:
1. for the 1% of the population who control 90% of the wealth?
2. that same 1% who earned 50% of all income earned last year?
3. for the next 10% who are born clever enough to be in the professional class of Drs. Lawyers, politicians, etc. and those who act as middlemen wannabes for the rich?
4. or for the 90% whose work is continually more negated by virtue of the circumstances of their birth?
One thing the new group of youngsters has on their side: as the boomers retire, there will be fewer and fewer able to do the work as needed. They will be able to charge more than any of us did for their labour if they ever decide to put down their video games and get organized.
Whose rights do CSIS and the RCMP currently seem to protect the most, Luke?
How long do you think it takes a police car to get to a home that reports a burglary in West Vancouver? How long does it take for a patrol car to come to a home that reports a burglary in East Van? Earlier this fall, when a woman was afraid of being assaulted in a West Van park, it made headlines for 2 days and was on the evening news. I have never heard of similar coverages and interviews for anyone living on the east side of town. Pickton was able to murder many eastside women before it became the TV newsworthy. Is this the way it should stay, Luke?
SharingIsGood
2 years ago
almost forgot...
My warmest regards for RickW, Lynn, and the Coyoteman. I am always humbled to be able to share the comments section of the Tyee with such thoughtful and intelligent contributors.
Fiat lux
2 years ago
The Reform Party, now ruling
The Reform Party, now ruling Canada, had a policy statement, when they were still honest to a certain degree, to abolish the old age pension and replace it with RRSPs.
With more people sleeping and dying in the streets.
But that would only be "God's will".
Ed Deak.
sunshine coast girl
2 years ago
Menzies said,
"We have a voluntary system under the RRSP under its present state." Many, many people don't use it, he said, adding he hopes to gain insight on why that is in the coming weeks."
Is he serious? Does he really not know that most young people, when raising their families, barely make enough to pay their bills and if they're really, really lucky can scrape by enough to put a down payment on their house? Does he really not know that with the demise of well-paying resource jobs that are being replaced with low-paying retail or tourism jobs that people just don't have the money to put away for the future? Does he really not know that here in BC (anyway) that it costs so much to send your kids to college or university that you use every dime you have to help them and they still graduate with 50 or 60 thousand dollar debt? Come on down here to the REAL world Menzies. We'll educate you real fast!
RickW
2 years ago
Ed/SIG
Ed says:
It is nothing short of amazing how 'God's Will' so often directs (as S.I.G. notes) "...the 1% of the population who control 90% of the wealth
BTW, Ed, you may be interested in reading 'War in The Country' by Thomas Pawlick
http://books.google.ca/books?id=w46_bqSXDDkC&dq=war+in+the+country+thomas+pawlick&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=WN4wEtnczP&sig=mu-4ai9EWLM3NirhGLzMvRG1hJ8&hl=en&ei=sxglS8jdJozQsgOgrc3gDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=&f=false
SharingIsGood says:
They are merely enforcing the laws, SIG. Of course, one might be tempted to ask who created the laws in the first place. England once has some 400 hanging offenses -- until it found out that these they didn't do much to keep people from breaking the laws to avoid starving to death. Now the US has irrational 'marijuana laws' to keep the private prisons well-stocked, and Harper is quite willing to take a leaf from that book.
realisticman
2 years ago
Memories...
Come and sit on my knee son. You know, I was in a street protest once. Yes, a group of us went to Copenhagen. God, the carbon credits I bought cost more than the air ticket but I did get a tree planted for it in Tennessee, I think. We knew all the world leaders would be there for a big conference and all the professors had been telling us that Denmark was the best place in the world, with equality and a small gap between the rich and the poor. One day we started marching. The police said there were 40,000 of us. Suddenly something happened, some cars were set on fire and bricks were smashing windows. I ducked into a side street when the tear-gas started flying. This beautiful German boy held me as we crouched in a corner. He had such big strong arms. Then the police cut us off from the rest of the group and a thousand us were arrested just as a caution. They held us in the street for hours in the cold, then threw us all in jail just for marching and this was Denmark.
So mom, what was your revolution riot all about then?
Well, do you remember? The winters were shorter, the summers were longer and we thought that maybe it was because we didn't have enough public transit and that there too many SUVs, too many cows and pigs, you know.
So, basically, your revolution was because you were complaining about the weather?
SicPreFix
2 years ago
realisticman ...
You goofy. This is the Pensions thread, not the Climate Change thread. Go away with your wee deceitful Limbaughisms and run back with them to that sea of Denialist misinformation and distortion. This is adults trying to talk reality here.
morechatter
2 years ago
Lets See First!
Transparancey that is as its the corner stone to democracy as what you are allowed to see isn't what you are getting. Improvements to the Plan are much needed and letting Canadians in on what happening is a positive first step. I wouldn't believe what any of these guys or gals are saying I want to see it as the rest is shear fabrication to apease the masses.
Why would a country leave mere men and women with all the control over their livelhood and their retirements with out a clear picture of what is exactly going on. When was the last time you hear this, "The New Era" under Liberal Rule, as deception and cover-ups become the political norm. How is that working for you? So as much as I agree with much needed change first things first, Canadians need to take hold and demand tansparency, infact get the losers to make it a law because in all honestly it dosen't matter what party you vote in its a playground for crooks.
Jerry Munro
2 years ago
kicking brownshirt butt... :-)
Outside of many other fine progressive folks here, such as Fait of course, and Sunshine Coast Girl, I've got to respond to SharingIsGood's fine and much appreciated piece above, as well as those of Rick and Lynn. Echoing SharingIsGood especially, I too consider it an honour, to be engaged in these Tyee comment threads with you fine folks.
There is a struggle going on for hearts, minds and a progressive/radical political influence here, to wrest free what has been a dominant rightist-thug stranglehold on the public discourse and the limited range of ideas to which we have all to here had access. And largely, I think, we are seriously kicking some brownshirt ass here. :-)
Hang in there brothers and sisters, and yes, comrades. :-)
The times, they are achanging... again. (And you really don't need to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows. :-) chuckling.)
Luke
2 years ago
Comrade Coyoteman...
Yep the times are a changing...
http://canadiandimension.com/blog/2590/
Yep Comrade Coyoteman... I suggest you head on over to Manitoba to start your revolution against the NDP as a testing ground. I'll just sit back, grab my bag of popcorn and watch the entertainment! :D
Frank
2 years ago
Coyote
Forgive Luke, the Germans have been fighting the communists since 1918.
Frank
2 years ago
brad
I imagine you've been eating a lot of popcorn as you cheer 6 straight years of leading the country in child poverty?
Meanwhile, your fellow Liberal Jean Charest is the premier of a province with cheap daycare.
"Quebec introduced its own daycare system, offering subsidized spaces at $5 a day. Demand quickly surpassed supply."
In the last provincial election he also campaigned on shorter wait times for hospitals and increased daycare spaces.
Frank
2 years ago
One more thing Brad
"HST may spell the end for B.C. Premier
Hopefuls are already sniffing around the Liberal leadership – but there's one old ally who stands above the rest"
http://v1.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20091212.escenic_1398193/BNStory/National
My favourite passage from the article was this one :
"The question of who might succeed Mr. Campbell has also been consuming Vancouver's amorphous “business community,” which always has an enormous stake in these matters."
Frank
2 years ago
Another great Liberal moment
From Mikey Smythe,
..."Joyce Murray. Here's what the Vancouver-Quadra MP had to say about the HST just a few weeks ago on CKNW:
"My voice will be clearly against the HST. That's where I stand. It's a $2-billion tax shift from business onto consumers. This will take a tremendous toll on small businesses and families.
"Is this the time that we can layer another hardship on small businesses and another cost on consumers? I say no."
In like a lion, out like a lamb: Murray voted yes to the HST. Baa, baa, baa, humbug."
I have to admit, I found that story, and the other one by Liberal MP Ujjal Dosanjh not to be sad but instead really funny. Just my way I guess.
Frank
2 years ago
okay okay, last one, I promise
Go to this link, does this look like a man Canadians want to see as prime minister?
I call it Iggy's "Kreskin" moment...
http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/todays-paper/Liberals+penalized+iggy+power+play/2333644/story.html
Fortunately the polls say they don't.
crankypants
2 years ago
Mandatory vs elective
This whole pension issue will be a difficult thing to solve. If you increase elective limits then you will just increase the the already widening gap between the rich and poor. If you increase mandatory contributions to the CPP then you will be adding a further stress to the lower income workers who are already finding it difficult to make ends meet.
The problem is that wages and inflation have not moved in tandem for the majority of society, and this has put a lot of people in an unenviable situation. I don't mean the so-called inflationary figures supplied to us each month by the government, but the actual cost of living faced by the majority of families today. The basket of goods that the government uses to determine inflation has very little relevance to the costs the average family encounters on a day-to-day basis.
The worldwide recession has only made things worse for many in society, whether it is from lost income on investments by pension plans and individuals, and the loss of many decent paying full-time jobs, some of which have been replaced by either lower paying entry level jobs or part time employment.
One does have to question one thing. Many businesses and individuals have suffered greatly during this recession, but the banks have continued to make nothing but huge profits. Across Canada most companies have suffered either reduced profits, substantial losses or bankruptcy while the banking sector has continued to flourish. What is wrong with this picture?
Curt
2 years ago
Keep the blood sucking, over
Keep the blood sucking, over taxing, corrupt politicians out of the people's pension plans. HANDS OFF !!!
realisticman
2 years ago
Frank
This morning I heard a clip of Carole James criticizing the BC Liberals for NOT putting HST on gasoline. She is now saying that the HST exemption on gasoline is wrong. That was a quick turnaround.
RickW
2 years ago
R/M old man....
Lemme see now -- First you said that Carole James said that the HST exemption on gasoline is wrong. Then you said that she is now saying that the HST exemption on gasoline is wrong.
You are succeeding in proving SIG right.
realisticman
2 years ago
RickW
Is it complicated?
Carole James is, still, fighting the implementation of the HST, yet today she says that it should be added to the price of gasoline.
I'm just the messenger here.
Frank
2 years ago
r/man
Surely to god you can see the hypocrisy of Campbell declaring a "carbon tax" at the pump and then in effect removing it because he gives it a tax break?
He's trying to bask in two glories at the same time. The glory of having a carbon tax and the glory of handing out an HST exemption at the pump.
Yet because of the HST exemption there will be in effect no carbon tax at the pump.
All I'm saying is he should pick one.
Luke
2 years ago
Frank..
I say bullsh... evik.
Comrade Coyoteman should at least march upon Winnipeg and re-enact the 1919 General Strike. Ahhhhhh.. he will then be able to bask in those former days of glory!
Frank
2 years ago
Brad
Speaking of former days of glory I'm sure Coyote will be happy to do just that right after we see you off to Munich to reenact the Beer Hall Putsch.
Jerry Munro
2 years ago
Cost of living and pensions...
Cranky7pants notes correctly, "The problem is that wages and inflation have not moved in tandem for the majority of society, and this has put a lot of people in an unenviable situation. I don't mean the so-called inflationary figures supplied to us each month by the government, but the actual cost of living faced by the majority of families today. The basket of goods that the government uses to determine inflation has very little relevance to the costs the average family encounters on a day-to-day basis."
Both the wife and I, at least formally, have pensions indexed to the cost of living. Nonetheless, over especially the recent years of my retirement, it's purchasing power has noticeably and dramatically eroded, becoming thinner spread out over each month with the passage of these Neocon times. And the main culprit is less "taxation", which the Browns here endlessly lament-, my "fair share" of which I have no problem paying in order to maintain as civilized and compassionate a society as is possible within rip-off capitalism. But it is especially food and housing issues that increasingly exceed to "indexing" part of my pension. (To say nothing about the erosion caused by my employer clawing back, despite contract commitments, the medical benefits provisions that are part of our pensions.)
Here, in the nearest community to us, where unemployment is becoming increasingly serious as well, while community businesses languish, the food bank is about the only growth industry, with a growing customer base.
"Brad
Speaking of former days of glory I'm sure Coyote will be happy to do just that right after we see you off to Munich to reenact the Beer Hall Putsch."
Your repartee is a wonder to behold, Frank. He is already sliced and diced. :-)
Ohhhh, a lttle time yet Luke the Brown, and I predict you will see more echoes of The Great Winnipeg General Strike yet. In the fullness of the coming time.
Frank
2 years ago
crankypants and coyote
Your remarks reminded me that median income in BC declined 11.3% between 1980 and 2005 while increasing by 8% in Ontario and 5.4% even in PEI.
In fact, between 2000 and 2005 BC's median income declined 3.4% and was one of only two provinces in Canada that saw a decline (Quebec was the other, a small 0.3%).
The average guy is indeed getting poorer in this province. The stats back up what people feel.
Luke
2 years ago
Frank...
Sorry Frank, Die Volk came over here to Kanada, prior to the Schnickelgrueber era, and cornered the wiener schnitzel market.
But damn, Herr Honecker and his GDR comrades had an amazing Deutsche Volks Armee, n'est pas? Die Volks Armee had the leather boots and marching goosestep down pat. And those uniforms - my my - they would have made a blue blood Prussian gush in envy.
Guess Comrade Honecker just hadda emulate. ;)
As for Comrade Coyoteman, I'm sure that after he's enjoyed his re-creation of the 1919 Winnipeg General Strike ... he can head off and onward on his Trek to Ottawa ... and then sing the Internationale on the steps of Parliament.
And Comrade Coyoteman will be a wearin' a sandwich board sayin' "Wanna join me in a revolution?" :D
realisticman
2 years ago
Frank
"In fact, between 2000 and 2005 BC's median income declined 3.4%"
That's why the Campbell government gave us those tax cuts to balance it out, eh Frank?
lynn
2 years ago
Pension Plunder
It's clear these intentionally cagey, starving-for- details, proposals by our intentionally cagey politicians don't have anything to do with with so-called pension reform at all.
Must we spend our lives pretending we are buying these sloppy deceptions?
I'd prefer we turn out the lights in Victoria and Ottawa and quit the game playing....and save some electricity.
They are not on the side of the people anymore.
It's that old "reform" word that is the dead giveaway....and the suspect crew (from Hansen and Menzies onwards) piloting this pirate ship that makes one see "mirage" written all over this clever ruse.
As crankypants perceptively notes:
"One does have to question one thing. Many businesses and individuals have suffered greatly during this recession, but the banks have continued to make nothing but huge profits. Across Canada most companies have suffered either reduced profits, substantial losses or bankruptcy while the banking sector has continued to flourish. What is wrong with this picture?"
And while I would normally defend increased taxes for social services - under a corrupt system piloted by corrupt politicians increased taxation has become mere plunder..... induced poverty for the masses.
And in that regard.... well, Curt just says it best:
"Keep the blood sucking, over taxing, corrupt politicians out of the people's pension plans. HANDS OFF !!!"
Luke
2 years ago
Frank...
Gotta love Frank and his numbers:
"Census families" include couple families, with or without children, and lone-parent families. Median income by census family increased in Canada at a rate of 15.6% between 2002 and 2006.
Median income by census family increased at a greater rate in BC during the same time frame at a rate of 18.6%.
http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/famil108a-eng.htm
lynn
2 years ago
Dear SharingIsGood;
It's been a pleasure to get to know you and to read your thoughts on The Tyee - as well as those of so many of the good people who post here.
It's clear your moniker is more than just a name - you walk the talk that sharing is, indeed, a good thing.
Happy holidays to everyone.....
May cookie dough and chocolate sprinkles snow upon
you all.
A special toast of well-deserved holiday cheer to The Tyee...its staff and writers.
Jerry Munro
2 years ago
Contrasting Polar Visions 1...
"And while I would normally defend increased taxes for social services - under a corrupt system piloted by corrupt politicians increased taxation has become mere plunder..... induced poverty for the masses." wrote crankypants.
Ya gotta love not only that moniker of crankypants, but his ability to put his finger right on it too.
Which is what it is all about really, "plunder". That's the real face of capitalism masked behind all the rigged and competing statistics minutia the brownshirts here would bury us under, if we allow them, about unemployment, consumption and all that "free market" razzmatazz. And its time we stopped indicating to them that we buy into their poop with our silence, or with our tit for tat exchanges around who understands and can mouth "the real cooked figures" better.
That's the level of the debate they have drawn the social democrats of the NDP into, sucking them dry of vision and any inspiring content or relevence, by letting the brownshirts for the status quo define the terms of the agenda/debate. Which leaves them as but a windsucking shell of their former selves.
We live it. We feel it. We see it in our paychecks, our pensions and in the declining quality of our lives. We don't need to, nor should we debate with these arseholes at this level. It's about figures that lie to begin with, their irrelevent and a drain of energy that needs to be better and more strategically directed. We are not going to convince or change the minds of these rightist goofs or those they serve. Accept it.
Continued next post...
Jerry Munro
2 years ago
Contrasting Polar Vision 2...
Continued from previous post...
What we need to do is beat them. And the front on which we need to beat them right now, first, is at the development of a vision that is the polar "society transforming", revolutionary opposite of their race to the bottom "reforms" of the postwar socialized capitalism. That social contract was torn up in the "reforms" of the 70s and 80s. The essence of which now is that we must be corraled into accepting "their" notion, on the absolute necessity of "competing", in the Slit Your Own Jugular to Get In Global "Free" Labour Market, of the new "Globalized" Capitalism. In short, we should become complicit in our own impoverishment.
Now that MAY suit them, the brownshirt minions, and lead to the enrichment of them and those they serve, the "guaranteed" publicly underwritten (welfare) enrichment of global corporate capitalism, but it need not be OUR vision and raison d'etre of the future. Indeed, it would be to our greater benefit, collectively and individually, as working class folks, if we were to outright reject and stand up in opporition to this Globalized Capitalist Utopia of the future. (We all have our Utopias. This one is theirs.)
Why would anybody, certainly any working class person, in their right mind, buy into this ruling class vision of the future, and agreeably walk off into the sunset of their own impoverishment?
And we should not. We should in fact turn our backs as quickly as possible and walk in the exact opposite direction, away from this ruling class fancied notion of a "global", anything but "free market" for the working class future. It is only free in that they get to do entirely as they please, moving what they assume to be "their" capital about the planet in an endless search for cheap labour and high growth profits... all at the expense of OUR impoverishment.
We need instead a more down to the common woman and man earth, closer to home view of the future, that focuses on nation , community, husbanding of our precious resouces, the enrichment of OUR democracy, and people future instead. Shag their self-serving profit bottom lines and statistical projections. Ordinary folks need to become more concerned about themselves and their wellbeing. And if that means cutting these assholes loose, then we should cut them friggin' loose. Let's see how they really do on their own as "rugged individualists of capitalism". (Which hasn't really been too good of late, sans OUR bailout monies.)
And then we should take that "vision" to the streets, into our workplaces, and fight for it; for "OUR" economy, "OUR" democracy and "OUR" collective self-serving democratic institutions, that need not include them anymore than they have included us.
RickW
2 years ago
R/M old man....
Oh no, you are much, much more than "the messenger".
CJ IS fighting the implementation of the HST -- because it doesn't take effect until July '10. The reason she is fighting said discriminatory tax? Well, among other things, it is not universal, and a tax exemption on gasoline simply points to the deliberate discrimination Gordo & Co. intend.
Obviously, it is not complicated for me. For you on the other hand........well, see S.I.G.'s remark above.
Next!
RickW
2 years ago
Lynn
I would have to say that it does have much to do with "so-called pension reform" -- at least according to Thomas Pawlick, author of "The War in the Country: How the Fight to Save Rural Life Will Shape Our Future", in which he says that, whenever a right-winger uses the word "reform" he means eradication.
RickW
2 years ago
Luke
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/story.html?id=f3bc45da-1a34-4836-829d-967c2cceb1a6&k=65123
SharingIsGood
2 years ago
Brilliant writing
Excellent postings, once... er, twice again, Coyoteman.
Thanks for the kind words and your deep-thinking, again, Lynn.
Crankypants, just keep cranking the words out please.
Frank and RickW, like the others I have mentioned on this post, you are among the commentors who keep returning to the Tyee.
And Curt, keep telling it like it should be, brother
SharingIsGood
2 years ago
whoops, frank and rick
Frank and RickW, like the others I have mentioned on this post, you are among the commentors who keep [me] returning to the Tyee.
dorothy
2 years ago
So bear with me here...
"Why would anybody, certainly any working class person, in their right mind, buy into this ruling class vision of the future, and agreeably walk off into the sunset of their own impoverishment?
And we should not. We should in fact turn our backs as quickly as possible and walk in the exact opposite direction, away from this ruling class fancied notion of a "global", anything...etc., etc."
So how do we do that in, er, technical/operational terms? Not that I don't agree. But the notion seems to always end being developed right at this point. People are afraid that their jobs will be moved to India/China/Pakistan/the Czek Republic if they balk at the terms. So, what is 'our' answer? Can we build a parallel structure that will offer them their jobs back, at a more decent rate? We should be able to, if we are raising a ruckus, or else we are bothering those people on the facotry floor for no good reason. I for one am astounded that Walmart can set up shop here in our fair city and actually see people, most of them working class like you and me, walk through their doors. I will take my chances living off the land in the barest minimal way, before I would put one cent into their till, seeing how they treat their staff. Even somebody as pragmatic as I have a lower limit.
What I am trying to say is, are we not dreaming the impossible here? Are there not so many that have bought into the misery so deeply, that any attempt at turning the tide in a tidy, progressive way will just engender hatred from those enslaved souls? At least we must not underrate the weight of that flywheel we would be trying to stop and reverse, for we could just be crushed with nothing gained, all waste.
Real co-ops are a powerful thing, and it is hopeful to see how much some people hate the MEC for instance. That must mean it is doing something upsetting. But every enterprise would have to make very sure it did not run afoul of any of the massive protectionist walls that are in place everywhere. It would be mightlily annoying to make it that easy to flatten the burgeoning competition...
I do not know if others are thinking in structural terms here, but sooner or later that step must be taken. We cannot live on principles alone, nor ask others to, while we get our gear in running order. So, any thoughts??
lynn
2 years ago
Rick W.
Quote:
" in which he says that, whenever a right-winger uses the word "reform" he means eradication."
No, I would agree completely, Rick W.
It was what I was "trying" ;-) to say when I wrote
that the use of the old "reform" word is "the dead giveaway".
I haven't heard of that book by Thomas Pawlick.
Its take on rural life sounds really interesting. I'll check it out.
Thanks for telling me about it.
L.
realisticman
2 years ago
RickW
Do you feel the same about the Ontario HST? That seems to be a done deal.
Jerry Munro
2 years ago
Dorothy..
"What I am trying to say is, are we not dreaming the impossible here? Are there not so many that have bought into the misery so deeply, that any attempt at turning the tide in a tidy, progressive way will just engender hatred from those enslaved souls? At least we must not underrate the weight of that flywheel we would be trying to stop and reverse, for we could just be crushed with nothing gained, all waste." wrote Dorothy.
All, very good questions and observations you have posed, Dorothy, for which there is truly need of answers, "At least we must not underrate the weight of the flywheel".
Indeed. It is doubtless going to take a serious and prolonged struggle, which without forces, being masses of people, to take up the fray, there will never be any hope.
Drats!! I would love to continue this Dorothy, but I've got this damned cold, my nose is running and I'm sneezing like crazy. :-) Hopefully I will be feeling better tomorrow, and can get back to this with you.
Right now, I need to go lay down. :-)
Except... It isn't going to be easy, for damned sure. :-) One should really not "underrate" that, as you say.
Frank
2 years ago
Brad
What Rick W said.
Thanks Rick W
Frank
2 years ago
Sharing
I think I agree with your first statement more than your second :)
"Frank and RickW, like the others I have mentioned on this post, you are among the commentors who keep returning to the Tyee."
Frank
2 years ago
r/man
""In fact, between 2000 and 2005 BC's median income declined 3.4%"
That's why the Campbell government gave us those tax cuts to balance it out, eh Frank?"
Since the tax cuts arrived in 2001 it wouldst seem safe to assume that Campbell's tax and service cuts were one of the reasons for the decline in median income in BC.
RickW
2 years ago
dorothy
But the jobs are moving there anyway, n'est pas?
RickW
2 years ago
R/M old man....
Actually, I care about as much about Ontari-i-ario as Ontari-i-ario cares about TROC.
Frank
2 years ago
Comrade Brad
You're being boring. You should have noted your cue and got in the spirit of the thing and told us about how after the Putsch some fraulein in your family had gone out for drinks with Ludendorf and spent the night being regaled with tales of how von Hindenburg couldn't tie his shoes let alone find Tannenburg on a map.
Instead you phoned it in. Sad.
realisticman
2 years ago
Just as well Rickie
http://www.policyalternatives.ca/newsroom/news-releases/hst-not-tax-grab-study
Should we be surprised to see Jack at odds with the CCPA on this one, or is it all politics?
RickW
2 years ago
R/M old man....
Using the socialist, biased, one-sided (corrupt?)CCPA as a source......?
realisticman
2 years ago
Rickie
The CCPA press release on the HST just came out yesterday. Thought you might like to see it.
Can you elaborate on what you say about the CCPA being corrupt. We are interested.
Frank
2 years ago
r/man
To paraphrase Bob Rae, you're skating in order to avoid the issue. Was the report really that hard to understand?
edh
2 years ago
I paid all my life, why should I pay for those who don't?
I'm retired. My company pension plan took an 18% hit in the downturn but it's OK. My wife and I contributed into pension plans all my life. I saved in RSP's, surprising how much you can save, especially if you want to keep as much as possible out of the taxman's pocket. My wife and I invested in property and that has paid off well.
Many call us lucky. We are not lucky!!! We worked all our lives and tried not to blow too much. It's hard work!!
We know folks who did not save, spent money on new cars every couple of years, went on frequent trips all over the world and blew a lot of money on junk and are now collecting extra benefits because they do not have enough to live on in their retirement.
Now the gvt wants to give them more, WHY??
realisticman
2 years ago
Frank
I'm not skating. I brought up the issue. You and yours cite the CCPA so much and so often how can you not accept this report? The BC HST will have less impact than that in Ontario because here gasoline is exempted and the rate will be 2% less.
The anti-HST crowd cannot overcome this.
Frank
2 years ago
r/man
Its not a report on the BC implementation of the HST.
Why not submit a report on the study of vampire lore instead? It would be just as relevant to Campbell's policies.
RickW
2 years ago
R/M old man....
The CCPA is "socialist". By definition (rightistas' definitions at any rate), that makes it corrupt.