'Let Donolo Let Iggy Be Iggy!'
Listening in on BC's Grits this weekend, as they gathered in Whistler to drink and argue about how to revive their falling party.
Ignatieff, and new chief of staff Peter Donolo, aren't looking for an election any time soon.
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Obamasphere: Coming to Canada?
Iggy take note: Obama's endless web campaign has reinvented politics.
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Reading Michael Ignatieff
Whether writing on Iraq, Rwanda or Kosovo, the central character is himself.
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Ignatieff's New Story
Try as he might to drop the green message, it's central to Canada's fate.
Perhaps no member of Parliament stands more squarely in the path of Prime Minister Stephen Harper's political bulldozer than does Vancouver-South MP Ujjal Dosanjh.
"If they need a majority," the Liberal MP said, "they have to win my riding."
They came damned close last fall, when Conservative candidate Wai Young fell just 22 votes shy of toppling the former premier.
And they will try even harder when the next election comes, a fact that is not lost on Dosanjh's colleagues in the down-on-its-luck Liberal Party of Canada.
"We have a lot of rebuilding to do," Dosanjh told The Tyee, adding that the next election, whenever it comes, is going to be "a very tough campaign."
The twin challenges of rebuilding a decimated party and fighting what looks like an uphill battle in the next election were the subjects of both genteel debate and boozy dispute in Whistler last weekend, as the British Columbia wing of the federal Liberal Party gathered for its biennial convention.
Cold facts, hot debate
A record storm buried Whistler in early-season snow, and set a chilly backdrop for a provincial convention that marked several low points in the federal party's fortunes.
Nationally, the Liberals fell to 24 per cent in an Ipsos-Reid poll released on Saturday, the lowest point since Ignatieff became leader last December. Those poll numbers reinforced the party's dismal third-place finishes in four byelections only two weeks ago.
In B.C., membership in the federal party fell last year to about 9,000 souls, from a high of more than 70,000 earlier this decade. And B.C. voters returned only five Liberal MPs to Ottawa in last fall's national election. Two of those squeaked back into office by razor-thin margins: Ujjal Dosanjh by 22 votes, and Keith Martin by only 68 votes in Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca.
These facts cast a chill over the Whistler gathering, and fueled heated debates that raged through the barrooms and hospitality suites of the Westin Resort and Spa.
For while party leaders maintained stiff upper lips and spoke of winning back three or four seats in the next federal election -- ridings in Burnaby, Surrey and the North Shore were named among those most likely to return to Grit control -- riding executives and campaign strategists worried privately that the party would be lucky to return even three MPs next time around.
Dosanjh's Fraser River riding, where Chinese-Canadians comprise 45 per cent of the population and Indo-Canadians another 13 per cent, was viewed by many as particularly vulnerable. The Conservative Party has been aggressively courting immigrant voters for the past few years, and those efforts appear to be paying off.
"A lot of Chinese-Canadian voters have left the Liberal Party," said one strategist with experience in Vancouver South. "And they're never coming back."
'That game can't last very long'
Ujjal Dosanjh, whose political career has included turns as the federal minister of health as well as premier of British Columbia, assessed his party and his prospects bluntly.
Of his party's B.C. wing: "There is enthusiasm in this group. I think there is also worry and anxiety in this group."
Of the Tories' efforts to defeat him: "You've got to give them credit. They are very well organized."
Dosanjh disagreed with those who argued that the loss of the Chinese-Canadian voters is permanent.
"We lost a significant chunk of the Chinese-Canadian community last time… It happened in Richmond. It happened in Kingsway. It happened in my riding," he said. "I believe that was because Conservatives had been successful in their law-and-order drive."
But Dosanjh does not believe Harper will do as well next time.
"This is a government that paints itself as the law-and-order government, then attacks the RCMP when the RCMP says the long-gun registry is effective," he said.
"I think that game can't last very long," he said. "I believe that if you talk to Canadians -- no matter who they are -- over time, they would understand that this kind of agenda is somewhat vacuous at the end of the day."
He was also not worried by the prime minister's recent visit to India, which included a high-profile stop at the Sikh holy site known as the Golden Temple.
"This prime minister doesn't do anything without politics in mind," Dosanhj said. "For him, going to India wasn't about trade. If it was about trade, he could have done it three years ago."
Dosanjh said he's working hard to retain the riding to which he was appointed by former prime minister Paul Martin in 2004.
"I'm attending as many events as are humanly possible," he said, vowing to "pay more attention to my own riding… instead of doing what I was doing in the previous campaign, carrying a bit of the weight of the provincial campaign."
The Airing of Grievances
At the centre of the stormy convention was Craig Munroe, a lawyer who on Sunday afternoon was reelected as president of the party's B.C. wing.
Munroe has a curious sense of humor. His reelection bumpf read like an X-files poster: "I Believe in Craig Munroe." And when asked about the bickering that seemed to pervade the convention's backrooms, he compared the Liberal Party to a Seinfeld skit.
"It's like the Airing of Grievances at Festivus," he deadpanned.
"Seriously, I'm pleased that in the hospitality suites and whatnot, people are having these discussions," he said.
"During some of the leadership races, people were kind of uncomfortable having those discussions. I like to think that we've now developed an environment where people can talk about their grievances, about candidates they supported or did not support, without worrying that someone is going to say they are disloyal," he explained.
Munroe said the B.C. wing of the party is reinventing itself.
"We retooled for the long Martin-Chrétien leadership wars, and successive ones," he said. "As a result, a lot of the traditional party structure started to wither."
He offered the following example: "There may have been, say, 100 members in the riding, people who had been contributing and working hard. Then all of a sudden you've got 2,000 members in the riding. And those 100 people kind of got elbowed aside."
Without the support of those 100 activist members, Munroe said, the party struggled to recruit volunteers.
Munroe said membership has risen to about 11,000 in the past year, and that the type of people joining the party now are more valuable than those who joined to support a leadership candidate.
"These are people who are going to remain engaged," he said.
Likewise, he said the next step is to recruit candidates who will commit for the long-term.
"We need to make long-term investments in some ridings," Monroe said. "We need to recruit quality candidates... and make clear to them that we are not investing in them just for the next election, but for however many elections it takes to get them to Ottawa."
As an example, he named Ross Rebagliati, the controversial 1998 Olympic gold medalist who announced last month he would seek the Liberal Party nomination for the Okanagan-Coquihalla riding held by Minister Stockwell Day.
Pot-smoking snowboarder versus Pentecostal jet-skiier?
"Stick around," Munroe quipped. "Later we will convene the Feats of Strength."
Donolo to the rescue?
The most talked-about person at the Whistler convention was Peter Donolo, who in the week since being named Ignatieff's new chief of staff had completely reorganized the office of the leader of the Opposition.
In snowbound Whistler, the Liberal faithful spoke of the longtime Chrétien advisor as if he were a St. Bernard bounding to their rescue -- preferably with a cask of brandy strapped to his neck.
"I think he just kind of makes people feel comfortable," Munroe said. "His presence calms peoples' fears."
Donolo politely declined to be interviewed by The Tyee. He is reported to have advised his staff that the media spotlight belongs on Ignatieff and the MPs.
He did speak with several convention attendees, however. According to those who heard him, the two central themes of the Donolo rescue plan are:
1.) Postpone the next election. Donolo has reportedly sent war-room chief Warren Kinsella back to Toronto, and told the election-readiness team to stand down. Party insiders said the Donolo team wants at least a year to prepare for the next election.
2.) Unleash Ignatieff. Donolo has reportedly said that Ignatieff has been too carefully packaged, and too sparingly dispatched. He seeks to give the former television commentator more freedom to be himself, and put him on the road more often.
Toward that end, Ignatieff had spent the day before his convention appearance in Surrey, meeting informally with representatives of the South Asian news media.
In a sign that frustrated Liberal Party faithful may have spent far too much of the last few years watching reruns of The West Wing, the phrase that echoed through the hospitality suites was, "Let Iggy be Iggy."
(Note to future Liberal Party conventioneers: Find a new slogan. This one did not lend itself to pronunciation by the intoxicated.)
'Goals worthy of a great people'
Ignatieff took the stage on Saturday afternoon, and delivered a speech in which sparse policy goals were peppered amidst a barrage of partisan attacks.
"We're not just living through a recession. We're not just living through a temporary downturn. We're living through a fundamental restructuring of the global economy. And that's the challenge that our party needs to address," Ignatieff told a welcoming crowd.
"Canada has to find its place in a new world. A world in which fossil fuels are expensive, carbon has a price, brainpower and intellectual property are the drivers of the economy much more than natural resources. And where the markets of the future are in China and India and no longer just in the United States," he continued.
"Canadians are looking for a government with a plan for that future, rather than a government that is constantly scheming about how to win the next election," he said.
Ironically, that was the point at which Ignatieff's speech wandered away from his plan for the future to plod instead through a weary roster of assaults on the Harper record. It was many minutes later before he returned to his declared theme.
"People ask us what we would do differently. Our answer is clear: Fight for new markets, go where the growth is, stand up for Canadian technologies... secure health care and pensions, and above all, invest in learning, so that every child, every new Canadian, every Aboriginal Canadian gets a fair and equal start in this country," he said.
On the environment, he promised to protect "our Boreal forests, our watersheds, our lakes and rivers... and institute a cap-and-trade system to get our carbon emissions down."
On technology, he added, "We've got to hook up every rural and remote community in Canada [to high-speed Internet] so that every region has hope and opportunity."
Ignatieff loosened up for his final pitch.
"Leadership is more than pointing a direction. It means raising the game. It means thinking big," he said, noting that 2017 will mark the 150th anniversary of confederation.
"We must set ourselves the target of being the best-educated, the healthiest, the greenest and the most international society on the planet in 2017."
The partisan crowd applauded fiercely.
"These are goals worthy of a great people," he said. "These are goals worthy of a great party."
'Now he has listened to people'
As the weekend wore on -- and the tidbits of advice piled up -- the community-based campaigns of Newton-North Delta MP Sukh Dhaliwal came to look like a more viable path to victory than any reliance on a Big Red Machine.
Dhaliwal won two tough three-way contests in rough-and-tumble Surrey by running largely independent campaigns.
"In the 2006 election, I was the first Liberal elected since 1949 in that riding," he said. "Last time around, I increased my margin. I was the only Liberal west of Toronto that increased the margin."
Dhaliwal supported Ignatieff's bid to become party leader, and believes he will prevail.
"We have a very strong leader. Now he has listened to people. He's clear in his mind that people do not want an election right away. He's clear that he has some work to do," he said.
"And I'm very clear that I have work to do in my riding as well." ![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
Jeffrey J.
23-11-2009
Coalition Government Refused by Liberals
Actions always speak louder than words. As does lack of action. The Liberals could overthrow Harper tomorrow. It's simple and doable. All they need to do is pick up the phone, call Jack Layton and the Bloc and bring down Harper's mean, nasty undemocratic regime. Full stop.
But no, the Liberals are SO hobbled by the same funders of Harper's party, they're paralysed with fear.
If we had a coalition government, Canada would immediately become more democratic. Instantly. And more tolerant. And Canada could then begin to move forward, and begin governing.
So the Liberals are simply their own worst enemy.
Great coverage.
Fiat lux
23-11-2009
Unless the Libs get rid of
Unless the Libs get rid of Iggy, they have no chance.
The man is a political disaster area. There's no way he can be changed.
The problem with the polls is that they influence people's decision making and many will say: "Looks like Harper is doing a good job, that's why he has good polling figures, so let's give him a cahnce!"
And kiss Canada goodbye............
Ed Deak.
KWD
23-11-2009
Dosanjh
is right, it is going to be a tough campaign.
With meaningless rehtoric like Iggy's … "Canadians are looking for a government with a plan for [the] future, rather than a government that is constantly scheming about how to win the next election." … it’s little wonder the Libs are in trouble.
Iggy’s goals tell us he has failed in the “thinking big” department. No doubt we are “living through a fundamental restructuring of the global economy”, but in NA it began at the time of contact. That it has taken 200 years to recongnize this is telling. Iggy, like most politicians, doesn’t get the “thinking big” part.
Sadly, this is the typical BS heard at every political convention: fight for growth and promise a whole lot of stuff you have no hope in hell of delivering.
seth
23-11-2009
beauty vs the beast
Iggy looks like some sort of TV movie actor - like the Quantum Leap dude while Harpo looks like the fat stumpy demon seed from a Stephen King flick - all he needs are horns.
Iggy is articulate, charming and smart - Harpo is none of those things.
If Iggy can get past the censors and fascist pundits on Canwest/Gordo, the 99% of us who don't read the Tyee will sweep him into power.
I ain't saying it's right but there it is - in todays media culture looks sell.
KDH
23-11-2009
Iggy speech mistake
To quote the article from Ignatieff's spech:
"Canada has to find its place in a new world. A world in which fossil fuels are expensive, carbon has a price, brainpower and intellectual property are the drivers of the economy much more than natural resources. And where the markets of the future are in China and India and no longer just in the United States," he continued.
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As a Liberal delegate who watched his speech in Whistler, I definitely cringed when he said "intellectual property." Has this guy not heard of the droves of Liberal-minded people pushing for Fair Copyright?
Even if Iggy isn't trying to stake out a claim on the contentious issue of copyright (I don't think he wanted to), "intellectual property" was an incredibly poor choice of words given its heavy political connotations to people who are very focused on the issue of copyright. Other similarly minded people I talked at the convention to also raised eyebrows with his choice of words.
Basic rule in politics: Don't use politically divisive terminology unless you want to stake out a clear stance in favour of that terminology.
Dan the socialist
23-11-2009
The latest Ipso poll has
The latest Ipso poll has Libs at 24% and NDP at 19%
http://www.ipsos-na.com/news/pressrelease.cfm?id=4605
So will the knives be out for Iggy anytime soon?
Harper won't earn his majority he will get next election, it will be a gift from the once mighty Liberal party.
Hard to believe Iggy could of been PM back in January but he did not want the job back then and he sure in hell ain't gonna get the job now..
As much as I want Layton to be PM, I would be happy if he could even get more seats than the Libs and BQ and move into Stornaway, preferably under a Republican Party minority..
Jack has increased the NDP seat count with each election and even if he does not move into Stornaway, the NDP will still gain seats next time I believe.
The liberals need to find someone that can unite all the factions, until then I think they are doomed.
I admit I was not a huge fan of Dion but I was willing to give him a chance to lead a coalition government...plus I do not think if we had a coalition with Dion at the head they (the libs) would be any lower in the polls than they are now with Iggy, I would say they would probably be higher, like in the mid 30's but we will never know I guess, to bad really.
Skywalker
23-11-2009
The eternal dilemma.
More seats for Jack and Stephen gets a majority. Is that a result I can live with? Bloody scary even if it gets rid of Iggy.
That is a real Hobson's choice.
alive
23-11-2009
Bunch of loosers
The liberals are still figthing the old internal wars Cretein v/s Martin.
Their choice of Dion was not a good one, but dropping him as they did was even worse!
Dion could as easily have gotten the help they now seem ready to bestow upon Iggy, and it would have looked a lot more believable to stick with a choice than to keep searching.
The simple fact is that the choices offered are all backroom boys that carry luggage, and cannot garner enough backing.
Dosanjh lost face when he jumped ship, and was lucky to win last time out.
The only fresh face was Iggy and they fell for it, not realizing his shortcomings!
To re-invent themselves they need to purge the backroom boys and start listening to the voters instead; not that I care for another Trudeau (or any liberals) but maybe, just maybe he could get some interest going for that lost party?
KWD
23-11-2009
KDH … Iggy is the mistake.
Worse than the intellectual property quagmire is the “… carbon has a price …” blunder.
Not only profoundly self evident, it serves to reinforce the belief that Iggy’s Liberals still haven’t given much tho’t to public sensitivities. That statement alone will dissuade many who think the Conservatives need a Liberal replacement.
If he had actually tho’t that one through he would have said, … “pricing carbon will be a major driver of the economy, create a whole new sector of employment and a greater appreciation for our natural resources.”
But, rather than put a positive spin on it he focused on cost. Just what everyone wants to hear.
ME2
23-11-2009
Hobson's choice awrite
The Fed Liberals are Conservatives if that will get them the vote, and the NDP are Liberals if the polls tell them so.
Harper can then be whatever he wants to be, just as long as he keeps quiet about his Fascist leanings.
coyoteman
23-11-2009
Out of the "hypothetical" Liberal Party Breakup...
Iggy is just an American, in my view of the man, looking back with nostalgia and opportunism... And who knows, perhaps serving the US Empire cause still. ...at his Canadians roots. He was a natural for the Liberal Party, which, like their Conservative opponents, has really always bent, in the end, to the US Empire will. (Trudeau was an anomoly, that we all really secretly enjoyed.)
Though I must say, viewing this YouTube stuff, from the embittered viewpoint of Stephan Dion's wife, and the fight therearound amongst the Liberals, was very interesting.
I have always kind of thought, which I've written of here a number of times, that the NDP is in the end going to get its wish in usurping the role of the Liberal Party. With the Liberal Party, in my touchy feely premonitional insight, splintering its membership into the Conservative Party one way, and with the true "liberal" faction likely winding up in the NDP.
I mean, c'mon, they, like the Greens as well, are really all fundamentally cut from the same "liberal" cloth anyway.
Although, when that occurs, there is likely another possibility. Which is that the embattled, used, abused, disrespected and beat-up "left" in the NDP could finally be freed and driven to look elsewhere for allies and alternatives. (Which would, weirdly leave the NDP, in fact, politically, about where the Liberal Party is right now, in terms of its class composition, sans the really Conservative element .)
I'm not really a party person myself anymore. I put much more credibility and faith into the building of the "mass movement". Which could be assisted, frankly, by the disaffection of the "left" in the NDP, where it has ever been a bridesmaid but never a bride anyway.
Chaos. Quite frankly, what the country needs right now is a little chaos, to force through a realignment of things and to force a rethinking and the opening up of new possibilities.
The current Liberals (except in b.c., and even there I'm not too sure) amd the NDP really want to get down and dirty with each other under the sheets anyway. Even read between the lines here, where they have their ritualistic "love fights" about he said and she said, and who did what.
It's almost a Harlequinish, ritualistic "love tension" literary device, before they fall upon each other with passionate abandon: The bare chested Scot in a kilt, brandishing his claymore, as the red headed beauty at his feet seeks out his manhood.
mopled
23-11-2009
CLIMATEGATE is going to get Harper elected
unless both the Liberals and the NDP disavow the fraud quickly. There is no way it can be ignored, although CBC is trying hard.
Lord Lawson calls for public inquiry into UEA global warming data 'manipulation'
Lord Lawson, the former chancellor, has called for an independent inquiry into claims that leading climate change scientists manipulated data to strengthen the case for man-made global warming.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/globalwarming/6634282/Lord-Lawson-calls-for-public-inquiry-into-UEA-global-warming-data-manipulation.html
RickOshea
23-11-2009
Not So Fast...
"...brainpower and intellectual property are the drivers of the economy much more than natural resources."
I have never subscribed to this theory... Corporations and certain foreign governments are forever pushing the idea that natural resources are nothing really -- so yeah, if you insist - we'll do you a favour and take them off your hands if you give them to us cheap enough... This is all a huge bluff.
Natural resources could have been Canada's economic ace in the hole except we 'free traded' that advantage away with NAFTA and all the other neo-liberalized trade deals we been sucked in to.
In all these deals -- the things they wanted most were Canada's natural resources which they got.
Brain power? In a population the size of China's or India's -- brilliant people are a dime a dozen; they study hard as hell at school too.
Intellectual Property? Every time a North American corporation off-shores a factory or a technical or professional job to China or India -- 'our' intellectual property has become their intellectual property. We've already lost that game.
Fiat lux
23-11-2009
Europe had the best of
Europe had the best of brainpower and tons of worthless money after WW2, but no resources.
So, people were starving, running around in rags and lived in the cellars of bombed out buildings, because there was nothing to work and rebuild with for years.
The cigarette ration was 2/day and so the only currency were cigarettes, with Lucky Strike on top and the German Sondermischung at the bottom. Everybody had to play the blackmarkets to survive.
In the American zones US soldiers used to sit on benches on their free days, with cans of food and chocolates spread out beside them, waiting for a woman to give them a signal to follow, often to feed their kids.
So, tell me about brainpower and intellectual rights. We got the hell out of there as soon as we could and never went back even for a visit.
And all this could easily happen again, with Europe's population 50% higher than then and no resources.
Ed Deak.
Frank
23-11-2009
Bright spots
Although the country and the province continue to plunge though the earth's crust on their way to hell its good to know Iggy will never be PM.
coyoteman
24-11-2009
Used Car Salesmen...
I agree with Fait Lux and others here. Ideally, of course, one will have both brains and access to resources, but if one has to choose, I'd take resources anyday. And then beware of the self-serving treachery of the smart folks with dick all but old coke cans for breech cloths.
The Amerikans do not love us because they think we are smart in any particularly useful way. They actually seem to think, from the prevalent image of Canadians there, that we are dull and boring certainly, and maybe a little "slow" as well. It's not our brains they want girls, but our big tits... our natural assets.
We could be, maybe even preferably, dumb as fence posts, as far as they are concerned. (An image we often live up to, unfortunately.) But without assured access to our natural resources, along with those of other countries, Amerika would be just another over populated and over developed economy, not unlike Europe, forced to either beg for "free world trade" or to build up mighty armed forces to steal them. (Oops! They are doing that already, as well, aren't they?)
Whilst we still have the resources, as much as they are being steadily alienated from us by our own US Empire Loyalists, we need to be building capacity to stand up to and defend ourselves against the predatory US Empire, not bleeding and spending our treasure to defend them, and keep them strong, fer chrissake. That's dumb.
What we don't need is another kind of Vichy regime serving the US Empire, that the likes of an "Amerikanized" Ignatieff would perpetuate and strengthen.
Nope, I'll take our resources anyday. But then prepare for the treachery, like I say, of those who will and do covet them. That's being both wise and smart. And there is a difference. A used car salesman can be smart.
dorothy
24-11-2009
Lieberal, liberral or liberaaaal
"I mean, c'mon, they, like the Greens as well, are really all fundamentally cut from the same "liberal" cloth anyway."
Er, no.
But I will agree with you, that the 'real' liberals are politically homeless. That doesn't mean they will go looking for shelter and take whatever they can get. It's not in their nature. That would make them...not liberals.
Rather, they will disappear into the woodwork, slip away in the undercurrent, do their own thing, in essence dismiss party politics as a vehicle for anything useful.
There is another day, another time, another place in history. It's all about not letting the flame go out. And I don't know of any more sloshy, massive wet blanket that the political left wing of today.
The right wing? may be closer to habitable, but doesn't cut it either. Too anal on those rights to everything. Too narrow in their thinking. Deming's counterproductive 'scarcity mentality'. Boring.
See you in Sherwood Forest...
Frank
24-11-2009
Centrists
They believe in nothing and have happily pissed on the downtrodden all their electoral lives.
KWD
24-11-2009
Coyoteman
Pattison has a spot for you, right next to Glen :-0.
You may have a hard time finding followers willing to loosen their lips on Canuckistan’s boobs ... or horn of plenty, if you prefer ... long enough to hear the battle cry.
As for our military, it is already too busy defending Amerika. And those Canucks that share your sentiments ... besides being on file and, given the slightest hint of revolt, will be immediately disarmed … they won’t hear the call to arms over the slurping din of TSN, Newsweek, Ophrah and American Idol.
Given the strength of existing trade agreements and the weakness of political will, the 49th parallel is actually more of a well-guarded, semi-permeable state boundary than a border.
In truth, our biggest enemy isn’t Amerika, it’s a global elite that believes it’s entitled to what’s left of planet earth.
coyoteman
24-11-2009
Twiddle Dee and Twiddle Dum...
"In truth, our biggest enemy isn’t Amerika, it’s a global elite that believes it’s entitled to what’s left of planet earth."
I hear you, of course, and don't even entirely disagree. But then who is that, acting through Amerika, if nothing else, rampaging around the world in Endless War, securing the resources of the planet for itself... and its friends in Europe?
In short, I don't think it is quite as cut and dried, Amerika and the "global elites" in separate compartments, acting separately. Rather, these "global elites" you correctly point out, are, more often than not, acting through Amerikan power and their influence over it.
Amerika is the global enemy of everyone with resources, in fact, precisely because these global elites act, first, through them, and their alliance with Britain, Germany, France and Italy etc. And a foolishly compliant Canada, of course.
These global elites do not have an "Elite Army" of their own, as an independent power, though from time to time they do act through the UN, but utilize, manipulate and act through the national armies, first that of the US Empire, into which they are all integrated, to one degree or another.
It would be nice, for analyses purposes, of course, if phenomena were always an either or an or, but it is typically more complicated than that. And being so, Amerika remains yet, though that is changing, and they are now having to suck up to India and China, the main face of the problem of global capitalist power, in my view.
And you think the risk of incarceration is going to be any less for leading a revolt of any kind against the global elites than the US Empire? I suspect we will keep coming up against the same faces and interests, whichever target you choose. With the same "rebellion" risks.
Camero409
24-11-2009
Iggy and the Libs
Let them sink! And good riddance! The Libs have for years slowly but surely chipped away at our CPP, OAP, Medicare, Labour laws, the list goes on and on. I despise the Cons even more but their hypocrisy is at least visibly measurable. I have no sympathy for the Liberals provincially or federally. Both belong with the dinosaurs.
KWD
24-11-2009
moving target
Just to clarify … not quite sure where the “cut and dried”, the “either or” positioning and the differences in level of risk came from. And I can’t imagine anyone disputing the fact that, today, despite moral and financial bankruptcy, the U$ is the point around which the global elite unite.
Nonetheless, if we use history as a reliable guide to the future, the center of power will shift. All that means is that the elite (and those willing to oppose them) will have to rethink their travel plans … that won’t change their level of threat.
coyoteman
24-11-2009
Launching oneself at the walls...
"And I can’t imagine anyone disputing the fact that, today, despite moral and financial bankruptcy, the U$ is the point around which the global elite unite." wrote KWD.
Perhaps I misunderstood you a tad, brother.
KWD wrote again, "Nonetheless, if we use history as a reliable guide to the future, the centre of power will shift. All that means is that the elite (and those willing to oppose them) will have to rethink their travel plans … that won’t change their level of threat."
I agree entirely... without qualification; whether the US Empire retains that "centre of power" it currently has, or it passes to Chinese and/or Indian capitalism, the global elites will still indeed be the main enemy, shifting their loyalties and allegiances as necessary. Only whom they are acting through will have changed. The centres of power "within" the elites, who is on top and who is on the bottom, can shift as well.
The task of each national grouping of peoples, I think, (Canadians, Americans, Chinese, whatever) is to secure control of the power over their own national territories governance and resources (acting locally), removing it, to the maximum degree that is possible, from the "sphere of influence" of the global capitalist elites. (Thinking globally.) Which will never be achieved without risk to those who take up that task, no bloody doubt.
Still, it is not going to drop down out of the sky a done deal, without waves of folks with the necessary level of understanding, if necessary, taking up the challenge and launching themselves at the walls of ruling elite power.
And many may even pay for their risk taking. But there is no other way.
And just to be clear, I am NOT "necessarily" saying that one must launch themselves at these walls by means of violent action. Preferably not... to the degree "the peoples' " side will actually have control of the choices.
In any case, we are still awaiting that new generations of revolutionaries... whom us oldsters MAY be able to modestly assist from our rockers. :-) (Not everyone gets more conservative as they get older... some just get wilier.)
oldcynic
24-11-2009
dosanjh
A riot that he accuses Harper of making everything political. He has done so all his career. Always criticizing, but has no alternatives. Same with Iggy. Come on Iggy, if you have brains enough to bring out some policies that Canadians can mull over, perhaps you would have a chance. Still waiting and it looks like it will be a long time.
For those who criticize Harper for the large deficit, look no further than Iggy who forced the situation. Would be curious to know what Iggy would have done differently?
all a cheap charade
carfreed
24-11-2009
same old same old
Its all just stupid political games and its played the same way as the big blood sports.
I want no part of it unless the progressive and concerned and compassionate thinking people unite to see that we have issues and decisions to be made on solutions.
Forget the 'party', the 'leader' and unite to get on with the tasks at hand.. There is work to do.
Be you Lib, Green, or NDP, you know that the best solutions and options are already available.
carfreed
24-11-2009
same old same old
Its all just stupid political games and its played the same way as the big blood sports.
I want no part of it unless the progressive and concerned and compassionate thinking people unite to see that we have issues and decisions to be made on solutions.
Forget the 'party', the 'leader' and unite to get on with the tasks at hand.. There is work to do.
Be you Lib, Green, or NDP, you know that the best solutions and options are already available.
morechatter
25-11-2009
Would the real Iggy, please take a stand
On something, anything as I often get the feeling Iggy is holding back as he becomes more reserved with time. Iggy needs to get his feet wet in uncharted territories and open up and be himself and let Canadians decide if they agree or not. Iggy and Harper are not from the same cloth. Harper will say anything to get what he wants and Iggy is afraid if he says anything he will not get what he wants.
morechatter
26-11-2009
O" Canada. "Will Protect our homes and our rights"
Canada was not broke until politicians got busy fixing the country to make it so much better than before. What was wrong with the way Canada was? Canadians had a good International reputation as peace keepers. No more! I thought Canada was pretty special and so did the many who died for their country by taking up arms to fight for their rights and the rights of others. Not anymore, you have no rights as Candian soilders engage in torture with United States.
And now that Canada is all fixed up and homelessness and joblessness have become a household name and debt ridden. Canada has acquired a 1/2 trillion dollars in debt and Governments are still blaming it on the way we were. What happened to the Charter, and Human Rights and what happened to our freedoms. "You have the right to remain silent" words low income Canadians wouldn't fear being arrested for being poor in their democratic country.
Canada needs to enforce its sovereignty by rejecting NAFTA and other international corporate globalization policies that seek to limit our democracy and our ability to pursue real social justice.
O Canada! Home of our ancestors,
Ton front est ceint de fleurons glorieux! Your brow is wreathed with glorious garlands!
Car ton bras sait porter l'épée, Just as your arm knows how to wield the sword,
Il sait porter la croix! It knows how to bear the cross.
Ton histoire est une épopée Your history is an epic
Des plus brilliants exploits. Of the most brilliant feats.
Et ta valeur, de foi trempée, And your valour steeped in faith
Protégera nos foyers et nos droits. Will protect our homes and our rights
Protégera nos foyers et nos droits. Will protect our homes and our rights.