News

Tax Wealthy, Don't Cut Services: Poll

Labour-sponsored survey shows clashing visions over budgeting in tough economy.

By Andrew MacLeod, 1 Sep 2009, TheTyee.ca

Jim Sinclair

BCFED President Jim Sinclair: Poll sends a message.

Related

Asked about the tradition of finance ministers using their footwear to send a message about their budget, Colin Hansen said when he presents British Columbia's tomorrow he'll be wearing, "The oldest shoes I own."

The choice has more to do with infirmity than thrift. "I have a toe that's been acting up and these are my most comfortable shoes," he explained.

Accidental though it may be, the metaphor is apt. In February Hansen delivered a budget that promised to keep the deficit to $495 million while protecting health and education. He and premier Gordon Campbell maintained through the May election that their plan was sound.

They have since admitted, as at least some observers suspected as early as February, that the economy is in worse shape than they said and the province's deficit will be much larger. The challenge of maintaining the programs and services British Columbians value has become that much tougher.

Hansen has said the government's revenues are off by about $2 billion and expenses are up by $1 billion. That would spell a $3.5 billion deficit, a figure likely to be mitigated by a one-time inflow of $1.6 billion from the federal government as part of the deal to harmonize the provincial sales tax with the GST at 12 percent.

"The world economy has got far worse than anybody had predicted," said Hansen. Many forecasters believe the economy is gaining strength now, he said, though he acknowledged not all agree. "I've said all along that British Columbia's going to come through this economic downturn better than just about any other jurisdiction in North America. I stand by that today."

Protect services: poll

The government has been looking for places to cut since February, he said. "I'm pretty sure most of those announcements are already out. I don't expect there's going to be any surprises [tomorrow]."

He added, "I think this is going to be one of B.C.'s best budgets because it's actually recognizing that we're coming through an economic downturn. It's going to lay the foundation for economic recovery and it's going to make sure we protect vital health care, education and social services at a very difficult time."

Just seven percent of British Columbians strongly approved of how Campbell's government has so far dealt with the economic downturn, according to a B.C. Federation of Labour poll, conducted by Ipsos Reid in the second week of August and released last week.

Another 31 percent said they "somewhat approved" of the government's performance, while 57 percent disapproved.

A large majority, 68 percent, said protecting services should be the government's top priority. Just 26 percent said balancing the budget, admittedly not likely now, should be.

Tax the wealthy, corporations: most polled

"They didn't buy that we should cut services," said Jim Sinclair, the president of the BCFED. "They just reject that overwhelmingly."

Instead, he said, respondents said the government should increase funding for the health authorities (84 percent), provide housing and re-training for people who are unemployed (81 percent), support post-secondary and employment programs (87 percent). Some 76 percent approved of starting a new childcare program and 84 percent wanted new initiatives undertaken to "protect and create jobs" in the province.

Asked if they agree with increasing taxes on corporations and the wealthy, 76 percent supported the idea.

The poll included 801 adult British Columbians and has a margin of error of plus or minus 3.5 percent, 19 times out of 20.

"It's very clear British Columbians want Gordon Campbell to say I hear your pain, I feel your pain, and I'm not going to use the economic crisis as an excuse to cut services," said Sinclair. When asked whether Campbell will listen, he said. "Does he listen to anybody?"

Independent view needed: Ralston

The Liberal government will have to choose between running a much larger deficit and cutting services, said the B.C. New Democratic Party's finance critic, Bruce Ralston. "The government will have to make some choices and we'll see tomorrow what choices they make."

His guess is more cuts are coming, he said. "It seems to me the government is more focused on the number rather than on the consequences of the cuts."

In recent weeks the public has already learned of cuts to grants for arts groups, the slashing of money school boards use for routine maintenance and an order to health authorities to scale back by $360 million, he said.

"It's a question of broken public trust," he said. "It's very clear that just as the budget deficit number was false, their commitment to protect health care, education and other vital services... are all experiencing the consequences of that deceit."

Taking an idea from Conservative Prime Minister Stephen Harper, Ralston released a private member's bill, the Independent Budget Officer Act, 2009, that would create a position for a watchdog to provide independent analysis on the government's budget.

"The idea is to create a position that's outside the political direction of the minister of finance and the executive branch generally," he said. "I'm not impugning the work of ministry of finance officials, but what I'm saying is ultimately they are subject to the political direction of the minister of finance."

Unrealistic budgets create all kinds of problems, said Ralston. "We are going to see tomorrow the consequences of that misleading of the public," he said. "Budget lies have real consequences and we're starting to see those in the reaction of groups as they discover what the government wouldn't tell them before the election and what is being told them now."

The cuts will cause lasting damage, he said. "Sometimes the kind of incompetent and sudden moves that are being taken by this government are very damaging in the short run and ultimately in the long run to a lot of groups and to the delivery of a lot of public services."  [Tyee]

77  Comments:

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  • seth

    2 years ago

    dumb and dumber

    "Asked if they agree with increasing taxes on corporations and the wealthy, 76 percent supported the idea."

    And they voted for EL Gordo? Gee Who knew!!!!

  • OilbertaRedTory

    2 years ago

    So Colin Hansen admits...

    ... he is both innumerate and podiatrically challenged ?

    How very ... lame.

  • Hermans Hermit

    2 years ago

    Oh Goody!

    ""Asked if they agree with increasing taxes on corporations and the wealthy, 76 percent supported the idea."

    Tomorrow Carole James is going to change her platform to now tax corporations and the wealthy! NOT!

    BTW, Jim Sinclair, you need a haircut.

    Viva La BC Visionaistas!

  • ME2

    2 years ago

    Fearful anticipation

    We tremble as we wait for Hansen's other shoe to drop.

  • bloodnok

    2 years ago

    Fiscal responsibility

    Funny how neither party suggests that they could save money by rolling back those whopping wage increases they vote themselves recently.

  • mary jane

    2 years ago

    Hey Jim

    I remember talking to you just after gordo started his rampage on bc. I asked you then why you didn't ask the workers to walk out until gordo was gone and you said you were trying to save jobs. How many people have lost more than their jobs now?Even now you could help but you are seldom heard from. You could have done many things but you missed the boat along with carole

  • offended

    2 years ago

    Have workers walk out?

    Are you kidding? They voted for Gordo too. People in B.C. are like sheep. That's why they keep voting for the guy. Even though he lies to them.

  • Bobby Peru

    2 years ago

    Union Irrelevance

    Sounds like a dinosaur reciting the usual 'I'm a Union Man' script. Unions have become more and more unimportant in our province; it's unlikely Sinclair could marshal a Solidarity march like the old days. And the 'tax the rich' chant sounds good, but no one has been able to elaborate who are the rich and what income level defines the rich. Set it too low and you'll upset the middle class and lose the election. Set it high enough to hurt the truly rich or profitable corporations and you'll lose jobs. Besides calling Gordon Campbell the Spawn of Satan, does anyone have any real, workable ideas?

  • Dan the socialist

    2 years ago

    Interesting and I know some

    Interesting and I know some will think this poll is biased because it was done by Labour but how is it any different than the push polls governments do?

    I would imagine these numbers are accurate for the moment as many upset with HST, Senior cuts, Health Cuts. Owelympics etc. But in 3-4 years the numbers may/would/probably change...

  • Fiat lux

    2 years ago

    How is it that back in the

    How is it that back in the 50s and 60s businesses have been making profits, new businesses were starting every day training and employing skilled people who had wages they could buy houses, vehicles, feed their families from their wages? Executives were making $25 or 50,000 and were happy with it, we had tariffs on imports. There were no homeless, no foodbanks. Canada was becoming wealthier and more self sufficient by the day, and the standard of living was going up all the time?

    Now we have a "globally competitive free economy and free trade". The biggest lie in history. Our manufacturing has been destroyed, and were selling the country from under our feet, while claiming "growth", while we're being colonized and enslaved with the power of imaginary money, created from the blue by some banks.

    The economy has been handed over to bolshevik international mega corporations who are stealing and destroying everything and everybody while raking in incredible profits? Their executives are stealing tens of millions from the public's pocket in wages, but they can't afford to pay taxes, or decent wages and are blackmailing governments for more of the same, or else........

    Does any idiot, apart from the priesthood of the Money God, the so called "economists", still believe that this is what an economy should be about ?

    Have people gone completely mad to permit a fascist ruling sector to screw them and ruin their lives ?

    Ed Deak, Big Lake

  • Cynic

    2 years ago

    Ed, if the definition of

    Ed, if the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result then yes, we are mad. Most astounding to me is the enduring ignorance about money and banking. It rules our lives yet so few of us question it. As you know, if the banking scam became well known, things would be very different very soon, and for the better. Finally.

    But today people will watch some government gambler spout some numbers, hoping for salvation, and then blink with little or no comprehension. It's weird.

  • Jeffrey J.

    2 years ago

    General Strike?

    Most social change comes from a group of people exerting the power that has always resided in the majority of citizens. History repeatedly proves that economic and political elites become obsessed with increasing power, causing more and more harm to the majority, which then results in social conflict and change.

    Democracy was designed to avoid such a difficult process, but most of North America's governments and elites have lost interest (and comprehension) in democracy.

    A general strike is a long standing, successful non-violent, civilized method (perfected in the 1930's) of ensuring policies are changed for the benefit of the majority. BC is being ruled by an arbitrary and angry regime, which appears to have lost any concept of the public good. We will need the structure that unions of employees provide, in order to speak and act for the greater good.

  • Skywalker

    2 years ago

    Maybe in BC and with Hansen

    ""The world economy has got far worse than anybody had predicted," said Hansen." But everywhere else they are more honest. Only in BC and after the election does it come as a surprise. Rationalizing election fraud!

  • Name

    2 years ago

    OilbertaRedTory & Me2

    LOL - too funny! What more is there to add!

  • seth

    2 years ago

    sinclair vs james

    Have y'all listened to Sinclair when he's on with Bill Good and Phil Hochstein. He kicks their asses. Bill sucks up to Jim like he was Gordon Campbell.

    James on the other hand whimpers like a scared bunny. Gets more shrill and dogmatic with each minute on the air. Bill shows no fear in beating on her.

    In todays media run world Sinclair could get some respect from the electorate and maybe get a good portion of those no voters back. At least he shows some spine.

  • Name

    2 years ago

    OilbertaRedTory & Me2

    LOL - too funny! What more is there to add?!

  • Van Isle

    2 years ago

    This province came so close

    This province came so close to have general strike in '03 with so many rank and file union people. What stopped it from happening? B.C. Fed and the CLC. Reason? It could have jepordized the NDP getting elected in '04

  • mary jane

    2 years ago

    offended +

    If the people of BC got their backbones in order this province would be run by the people not a idiot who doesn't give a rats ___ for th epeople he is supposed to be hired by to protect what a joke. We all knew how bad off the world was / is but gordo + gang didn't Hummmm

  • freebear

    2 years ago

    Ed Deak for Prime Minister!

    Hansen should be wearing oversized clown shoes!

    What is the point of having an economy if so few/fewer are gaining a livlihood from it!

  • Wilfred Laurier

    2 years ago

    Wow!

    Wow, in a poll where the respondents were asked if they wanted to tax somebody else for what they receive, they replied with a resounding, "Yes!"

    What an enormous surprise!

    Spare us the general strike nonsense. Only something like 20% of the work force is in a union anyway. It is a silly non-starter and would kill any chance the NDP had in getting elected. Look what happened in 1983 with such silliness.

  • Wilfred Laurier

    2 years ago

    That's easy.....

    "but no one has been able to elaborate who are the rich and what income level defines the rich."

    The definition of who is rich is easy: it is anyone who makes more money or has more stuff than I do. If they make more or have more stuff then it is all a neo-con/capitalist conspiracy to oppress the masses and warrants class warfare. The fact I flunked out of grade 9 to chop down trees has nothing to do with it!

  • Chris Keam

    2 years ago

    Class warfare

    People like to believe class is no longer relevant in North America and class war is impossible. Those people need to get out more.

    A general strike might just remind 'the rich' who really creates the wealth. Walking off the field makes sense when you know the ref has been bought and paid for by the other team IMO.

  • Wilfred Laurier

    2 years ago

    Fill your boots, Crhis

    "A general strike might just remind 'the rich' who really creates the wealth."

    I am sure your idea will meet with great success.

  • Chris Keam

    2 years ago

    Letting the Wealthy Carry the Weight

    Peter Singer wrote a compelling essay in the NYT in Dec 06 on the economics of giving and the reality that more generosity on the part of the wealthy wouldn't affect their lives in a material way, but could do a great amount of good in helping those who are without.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/magazine/17charity.t.html

  • Chris Keam

    2 years ago

    General Strikes Work

    which is why anti-unionists try so hard to ridicule and discount them.

  • frank2

    2 years ago

    Nice as it would be to tax

    Nice as it would be to tax the "wealthy," we don't keep regular statistics on WEALTH, and we don't need more forms and tax evasion opportunities. Much easier would be to increase taxes on the top half of the population ranked by INCOME, with larger increases on the top 25% and 5%. I am disgusted that my tax bills have been falling over the last 20 years as social programs (including those that I enjoy, such as health care) are being allowed to deteriorate,even as my income has been rising. My increased charitable contributions don't compensate the shortfall; and won't, unless all the high-income free riders are roped in thru tax increases.

  • Wilfred Laurier

    2 years ago

    General Strikes Work?

    Really? When and where? There has only been one in Canada's history and it was not exactly what I would term a resounding success.

    Childish nonsense is all such blather is.

  • Chris Keam

    2 years ago

    General Strikes

    From wikipedia, that bastion of rigor

    Notable general strikes

    494-287 BC - Secessio Plebis, Ancient Rome
    1842 - 1842 General Strike
    1905 - The Great October Strike, Russia
    1909 - Swedish General Strike
    1912 - Brisbane General Strike, Australia
    1917 - Australian General Strike
    1917 - Brazilian General Strike
    1917 - Spanish General Strike
    1919 - Barcelona General Strike, Spain
    1919 - Winnipeg General Strike, Canada
    1919 - Seattle General Strike, US
    1920 - German Kapp Putsch Strike
    1922 - Italian General Strike
    1926 - UK General Strike of 1926
    1934 - West Coast Longshoremen's Strike, US
    1934 - Minneapolis Teamsters Strike, US
    1934 - Toledo Auto-Lite Strike, US
    1936 - Palestinian general strike
    1936 - Syrian General Strike
    1941 - February Strike, Netherlands
    1942 - Luxembourgian General Strike
    1946 - Indian General Strike
    1956 - Finnish General Strike
    1968 - French General Strike
    1973 - Uruguayan General Strike
    1974 - Ulster Workers Council Strike, Northern Ireland.
    1984 - Uruguan General Strike
    1988 - Spanish General Strike
    1992 - Nepalese General Strike
    1995 - French Public Sector Strikes
    1995 - Days of Action, Canada
    2000 - Cochabamba General Strike
    2002 - Italian General Strike
    2005 - Bolivian Gas Conflict
    2007 - Guinea General Strike
    2009 - French Caribbean General Strikes

  • Skywalker

    2 years ago

    Here we go again.

    When the province was in a supposed boom the rich and the business got all the tax cuts. The average got increases in fees at every turn with a few crumbs thrown at the very poor. Now that the boom is over, the surpluses spent to pay off the Liberals structural deficits from their first term, guess what? Yeah we're talking about cutting services. Don't tax the wealthy, oh no, they can't afford to pay more. They won't create jobs and all the usual horse s%#t is churned out by Wilfred and Co.

    These right-wing nutbars responding with tired, discredited ideology to anything that spreads pain equally are really getting tiresome.

  • Wilfred Laurier

    2 years ago

    Quite a list.....

    And there is only one for Canada. The 1995 thing was hardly "general."

    Blowing smoke again.

  • Chris Keam

    2 years ago

    blowing smoke

    As I pointed out earlier, the attempts at ridicule are indicative.

    Nothing I've said is particularly outrageous and the general strike part of the discussion is only one part of my rebuttal to your negation of class structure.

    Love it, or hate it, there's no denying class still plays a role in our society.

  • Skywalker

    2 years ago

    Chris

    Facts always confuse Wilfred.

  • Fiat lux

    2 years ago

    The problem is not the so

    The problem is not the so called "rich", but how that richness was obtained, usually through the misapplication of religions and ideologies, regardless whether they were called communism, or capitalism. The idiot, collectivizer twins under the skin.

    "Wealth can not be created, only taken from other sectors, the environment and the future."

    Then, some of the so called "rich" take it for granted that the power their wealth gives them is a licence to steal more and destroy others.

    The modern executive class is the best example. Of the 150 members of formerly Tom d'Aquino's, now John Manley's Chief Executives, the lowest paid took home over $2. million last year.

    The highest paid Canadian executive took over $50 million last year, the CEO of the Royal Bank over $42. million, or over $23,000/hr. When the chairman of the US Exxon Corp. retired last year, he received a golden handshake of $500. million. A guy in his 70s who has been pulling in tens of millions every year, while the people in some of the countries these corporations are working and exploiting, millions are starving to death and blow themselves up by puncturing the pipelines to steal some oil.

    This crime wave is taken from our own pockets when we use banks, or buy gas.

    This is not richness, or wealth, but filthy obscenity and crime against the human race through the use of a fraudulent economic theory, taught in our universities as a "science", at the intellectual level of the nazis' racial theories, licencing it.

    Ed Deak.

  • North of Hope

    2 years ago

    Ed

    To add to the Exxon obscenity, the company still has not yet cleaned up nor paid for the spill from the Exxon Valdez. Boycott them.

  • Wilfred Laurier

    2 years ago

    Really?

    "Facts always confuse Wilfred."

    Give me an example of a successful "general strike" in Canada. There hasn't been one. The attempt in 1995 was a complete and utter failure. All they did was annoy people and they never went outside of Ontario anyway.

    Keep blowing smoke.

  • sunnyokanagan

    2 years ago

    cutting services

    The BC Liberals' idealogy MUST cut services. And must NOT tax the rich.

    1. With public services de-funded and therefor failing, he can show that only privatization is the solution.
    2. Taxing the rich would distribute the wealth in the wrong way: downward.

  • kootenay

    2 years ago

    Union Relevance

    Unions are as relevant today as they were 100 years ago. Corporations and governments never stop trying to download costs and taxes on to working people; Unions are one of the few instruments left for the working class to fight back. It’s funny (in a very sick way) that people who support right wing governments, think it is just fine for corporations to be highly organized and lobby governments on their behalf, but when the working class gets organized they are greedy, unreasonable bastards.

    So tell me Bobby and Wilfred, once you’ve eliminated Unions and driven everyone’s wages to $8.00/hr, what else do you have in store for us in your version of Utopia?

  • freebear

    2 years ago

    Long ago ignored theWilfreds on this forum!

    My policy seems to work well-ignore the ignoramuses!

  • seth

    2 years ago

    Gordonomics and tax the rich

    The top 1% of American households pay 39% of us tax and have annual incomes averaging 1.6 million.

    Assuming the same relative numbers for BC we could eliminate sales tax altogether by increasing their income taxes by 300K. That would downsize their yacht from the 100 footer they were planning down to a more modest 70 footer or so.

    Of course since they all believe in Gordonomics that elimination of sales taxes would increase spending tenfold and double their incomes.

    Obviously a win win solution for all.

  • Chris Keam

    2 years ago

    Effective general strikes

    I would consider the Winnipeg General Strike of 1991 as successful. All their aims may not have been realized, but overall it led to progress for workers in this country and in some ways helped lead to the formation of the CCF/NDP. For workers, the NDP's tenacity on their behalf for the past several decades has helped the working majority to a better place economically than if we had to rely on so-called Liberals (prov. or fed.) to represent the common interest.

  • Chris Keam

    2 years ago

    numbers got crunched

    1991 should read 1919.

  • Wilfred Laurier

    2 years ago

    Wow,

    So what happened 90 years ago can be repeated today. Get organizin's you have your work cut out for you.

  • Chris Keam

    2 years ago

    90 years

    History does tend to repeat itself.

  • Wilfred Laurier

    2 years ago

    Get Painting

    Get working, Chris. I am really looking forward to your general strike. How many people, where and when?

    I'd wager one on a Friday.

    THIS COMMENT and many others by 'Wilfred Laurier' constitute troll behaviour -- personal insults, repeated baiting -- and therefore you are being blocked for a minimum of two weeks. -- TYEE MODERATOR

  • Chris Keam

    2 years ago

    You're not the boss of me!

    Sorry, I'm self-employed. Sometimes I get to pick who I take orders from.

    Too bad you never did actually proffer up anything beyond snide comments to bolster your argument.

  • Wilfred Laurier

    2 years ago

    Self Employed

    Well, so am I, Chris. Maybe you can have a general strike all of your own or take time away from your business to orgainse one.

    My remarks are indeed pertinent. I am trying to get the fact across to you that blather about general strikes is just that: blather. Nothing will come of it. The last time there was any real possibility of such an event in this province it resulted in the NDP being destroyed in the next general election. That's why NDP leader Jim Sinclair and his flunkie Carole James won't support it.

  • Chris Keam

    2 years ago

    General Strikes

    Can you offer up some proofs though? Opinions and conjecture are no substitute for a few well-reasoned points to bolster your p.o.v.

  • Wilfred Laurier

    2 years ago

    Proof

    The proof is that the only general strike that had any real impact in the history in Canada was 90 years ago and even that was hardly an unqualified success.

    The 1983 "Operation Solidarity" ended in a huge electoral victory for Bill Bennett because Dave Barrett did not distance himself from it.

    Since then no BC NDP leader would go anywhere the idea of a so called "general strike" since they know it would be electoral death. I would wager Campbell would love to pick a fight with Sinclair over who runs the province, union leaders or the elected government. That is exactly what Bennett ran on and it got him a third term and it would give Campbell a cake walk to a fourth. Sinclair is no fool and he knows it, too.

    There is your proof.

  • Chris Keam

    2 years ago

    Solidarity and the 'huge electoral victory'

    Percentage change in popular vote for 1983 election
    Socreds - plus 1.53%
    NDP - minus 1.05%

    result - four seats change from NDP to Socred

    stats from wikipedia. Link:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Columbia_general_election,_1983

    This doesn't strike me as a huge victory.

  • Fiat lux

    2 years ago

    Funny logic by our moles:

    Funny logic by our moles: labour unions are bad because they influence the governments, but big business unions, especially the multinational mafia, are good because the own the governments.

    I can remember when one breadwinner per family was enough, now two can hardly make it. And this is called "progress".

    Ed Deak.

  • Ed Seedhouse

    2 years ago

    The Lie

    That 2.8 billion deficit figure is an egregious lie, since it counts the $750 million windfall from the feds for the "HST" betrayal and does so in complete defiance of any accounting standards. The actual budget deficit is at least 3,5 billion, and a truly honest accounting would put it far higher.

    I think tomorrow an NDP member should rise in the house on a point of privilege and formally charge the minister with intentionally misleading the house.

  • Dr Alexander

    2 years ago

    Ed Deak, you're making me chuckle again

    A few years ago, I happened to watch Preston Manning on CBC Newsworld and he was railing against self-serving "special interest group" that were trying to wrestle special consideration from Ottawa. Not six seconds later, he started talking about being visited by a "delegation" of businessmen who wanted to discuss blah blah blah.

    I suppose irony was never really ol' Presto's strong suit.

  • carfreed

    2 years ago

    tax the wealthy

    For those of us who make $12/hr or less, a pound of butter is a LUXURY. It represents a quarter hours work. Everything is looked at in terms of how much work time it akes or will take to buy something.
    For the wealthy, an exra $200 or $300 is a box of Kraft Dinner.

  • Wolfguy

    2 years ago

    on union relevance

    Unions are certainly relevant and needed in BC. Without unions the working person is subject to the voracious depradations of the capitalist elites...it was the excesses of the robber barons of the 19th that brought modern unions to power and decent wages/working conditions. So...go get em Jim and the hair is just fine.

  • Cynic

    2 years ago

    I heard Hansen the Predictor

    I heard Hansen the Predictor say that once the deficit is licked every surplus dollar will be used to beat down the debt. In other words, just forget about any progress towards relieving the suffering in this province. In fact, all you bleeding hearts can go phuq yourselves. As usual, we win you lose. Get over it.

    That's the message, folks. That thumb on our necks is going to get heavier and heavier. The elite lock on our wealth is going to get stronger and stronger. And all because we believe that money is something that it's not. And so they spout their numbers and we suck it up like the good little slaves that we are. How pathetic.

  • Fiat lux

    2 years ago

    Wolf...According to the

    Wolf...According to the presently reigning economic theory , unions are "trade distortions", as they prevent people from "competing for jobs". Which means offering their bodies for less and less.

    But big business unions like the Canadian Chief Executives, or the North American Competitiveness Council, or the Bilderbergers, or the Trilaterals, are "wealth creating enhancers of investment"

    As a self employed small business person for most of my life, I've never been a member, or had anything to do with unions. Or with any Boards of Trade.

    But if the biggest crooks and exploiters on Earth are not only permitted, but encouraged and welcomed to hold their secret meetings anywhere on the globe, I can't see any logical, legal, or human rights arguments against unions. Incidentally outlawed, or enslaved in all dictatorships, which goes to show where our economists are leading us.

    When it comes to "job creation by investment", big business doesn't create any. On the average about 95% of all foreign investment into Canada takes over existing businesses and starts eliminating jobs. To become "more competitive" of course, which means more theft from the public in lowers wages and higher prices.

    We go to town to shop twice a month, planning to go tomorrow. As OAPs we have the watch our pennies, but I'd bet odds that prices in the stores have gone up in the past 2 weeks, claiming rising costs, but never mentioning who gets the higher income. Not the minimum wage part timers who serve in our supermarkets these days. Like Save on Foods who wanted to introduce 2 hour shifts.

    I've lived under fascism, nazism, communism, capitalism, have studied history for over 60 years and can say without any hesitation that we're now existing under the cloud of the biggest crime wave in human history.'

    Taught in our universities as a "science" Milton Friedman said so, so it must be true ! I never took economics in my student days at Cambridge, but, remembering the heady atmosphere of those early post war years, I know that if any professor had dared to try to teach the neoclassical theory at that time, he or she would have been laughed out of the classrooms. Today, students swallow every word of it.

    This is the most astonishing part.

    Ed Deak.

  • jnewcomb

    2 years ago

    Whats the lower end of being wealthy?

    In BC, the wealthiest 10% pay 52% of the taxes, so who does Sinclair consider wealthy? And make those corporations pay more - Alberta and Washington State will gladly find homes for them and their capital.

  • Bailey

    2 years ago

    Speaking of irony...

    That figure, $3.5 Billion.

    Isn't that pretty much exactly the amount the Liberals cut from the taxes of the top 10% of earners on their very first day in office?

    $3 billion a year, I seem to remember was reported as the value of the cut.

    "Christmas in July" they called it.

    So replacing that amount of taxation in the place it actually used to be paid would instantly cure our problem. Leaving it in place would have avoided this deficit many times over since it was done.

    A failed policy if there ever was one.

  • Bailey

    2 years ago

    Dear jnewcomb;

    I would be very interested in the source of your statistic - 52% from the top 10%. I've read very different figures.

    I'm aware that statistics are easily manipulated, so I tend to distrust them on principle, but that one is so counterintuitive that it's source would be appreciated.

  • morechatter

    2 years ago

    Tax the Wealthy

    You'll have a hard sell with the Liberals as it has a preoccupation with getting its money from the poor. Make cents? No it dosen't but if your rich you help put someone in power who sees the value in keeping the rich in plenty. So taxing the wealthy, for their share as for everydollar made its got a piece of Canada attached to it so do you think you can get these crooks to pay their fair share? Or is it to easy taking it from the elderly and the young and Canadians families who have no say? Because what did British Columbians say they didn't want? The Hated HST. What where they promised? No HST. And what did they get? The HST.

  • morechatter

    2 years ago

    And Who Cares What Hansen Has To Say?

    He has proved to the majority of British Columbians he is not to be believed. So why listen it will only take you from the truth.

  • morechatter

    2 years ago

    And Get Big Corporations to clean up after themselves!

    This way much needed employment is created while the environment takes priority as standards and regulations prevail.
    Whats BC got TILMA? Campbell's personal guarantee to big business so it can have its way with the province with very few returns for its citizens and its rivers and other natural resources. Now how sad is that?

  • alive

    2 years ago

    how it was!

    Fiat Lux, exactly right: "I can remember when one breadwinner per family was enough!"

    In the early fifties my wages as a machinist supported my wife and 3 kids, we each had a new vehicle, had good vacaitons and managed to pay for our house in full in a seven year period, all without overtime or any help from family.

    I wonder who could equal that perfromance these days?

    I bet it would have to be a pretty high ranking management type!

  • Bobby Peru

    2 years ago

    Same old, same old

    That's right, the top 10% of BC earners pay 52% of the taxes. It always works out that way. And now you want to tax them more? And besides all the leftist, economic drivel some of you are writing, no one has yet to come up with a definition of who are the rich and how much more to tax them.

    And if you overtax corporations, they'll simply move elsewhere and you'll lose jobs and your tax base. The key is to expand BC's economic tax base with more economic growth, more industry and jobs. Didn't you guys learn from the folly of Glenn Clark? Tax and spend only leads to economic disaster. And BC people want better medical care, child care, but they don't want to uproot their lives and the current capitalist system to do that.

    So when you are talking about taxing the rich (which I interpet as punishing people who are more successful than you because you are jealous), the middle class- which includes the remaining well paid union employees simply shudder.

    It reminds me of a joke some Americans told me about Canadians: "They seem to hate the rich."
    "Well, what happens when they become rich?"
    "Then, they hate the poor."
    Nice joke about the Canadian culture of envy.

  • G West

    2 years ago

    Bye...and it's Glen Clark, remember.

    If you and they don't like it I'm happy to show you all the door.

    There were two new papers in NATURE in April and at the proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences in February: Basically they show that the only way to limit world temperature gain to 2 degrees C or less is to start reducing CO2 production NOW. What’s required is a commitment to a 10% reduction in the use of fossil fuels in 2010 and then going down from there. DO it now or basically the game is over.

    If wealthy people and corporations don’t like it, it’s time to relegate them all to the swamps of history – they’re all dinosaurs anyway.

  • Chris Keam

    2 years ago

    probably a poor interpretation

    "So when you are talking about taxing the rich (which I interpet as punishing people who are more successful than you because you are jealous)"

    I think it just makes good sense and there's little or no emotion involved. A millionaire won't notice an extra thousand or ten out of his pocket, but as noted upthread, splurging on butter is a tough call for lots of people and a tax raise is food out of their kids mouths.

    If people want to walk away from B.C. because they are expected to give back in a proportionate manner to that which they've been given (nobody gets 'rich' in a vacuum, and most personal fortunes are built with many hands) then I don't think they'll be particularly missed. Further, playing the 'who can charge less tax' game with corporations is a race to the bottom every time.

  • Bobby Peru

    2 years ago

    Repeating, repeating and repeating history

    Sorry for the incorrect spelling of Glen Clark- nonetheless, he and his NDP administration still smells of the worst kind of socialist failure. And from the sounds of it, few of BC's socialists- whether they are Green or the far left or left of center of the NDP, have learned any lessons from their defeats. Especially the defeat of Glen Clark's NDP, where the public showed their hatred of all that was Glen and NDP.

    When you speak of millionaires do you mean people who possess a net worth of a million dollars or people who make a million dollars a year? There's a big difference. Think about it.

    The sad, but true fact is that alot of our rich are the most creative and productive people in the province. Driving them away is counterproductive. Who would be left to tax? Or is your solution to move everyone into communes, farm our own little plots and live like Woodstock?

    Let's not expand the debate into global warming. Like all the the disasters that were supposed to kill man, this one will come to pass and then we'll wake up in the morning to another regular day.

  • G West

    2 years ago

    If hatred

    If hatred is the basis for people acting stupidly then we are done.

    The rich don't 'drive' anything.

  • Fiat lux

    2 years ago

    One of the worst jokes of

    One of the worst jokes of this propaganda campaign is that if corporations are taxed, they'll move somewhere else.

    This is, of course, the basic plan of the so called "free trade" fraud: Permit the free movement of capital so they can blackmail and extort without any responsibilities.

    So, let them move to hell. We're so badly overcapitalized now that the resulting perennial debt ruins and enslaves us.

    What people have forgotten, through generations of brainwash, is that money doesn't "create" anything, especially today's imaginary kind "created" from the air and used as a colonizing weapon.

    Without resources money is worthless. People had tons of money in post war Europe, but no resources, so they were starving and running around in rags. This is an economic fact that has nothing to do with the "right" and "left" idiocy.

    Foreign investment is another fraud, because when you have resources, you can raise your own capital to develop them and don't have to sell the land from under your feet. Canada never needed a penny of foreign investment, except in the warped minds of politicians and miseducated economists.

    Get rid of NAFTA and the WTO and start reclaiming the incredible resources we still have and use them for the benefit of our own peoples and not some bankers and "investors" on the other sides of the world.

    Ed Deak.

  • Chris Keam

    2 years ago

    Glen Clark

    Why are we still talking about Glen Clark?

    To avoid discussing the current administration?

  • kootenay

    2 years ago

    Don't tax the Rich and don't

    Don't tax the Rich and don't tax Corporations, and let Industry regulate itsself. That has worked just wonderfully...

    Just take a look at Forestry, once they were allowed to self regulate, they closed all their mills, moved them to Asia and the States and put thousands of people out of work. Then they sold off the crown land we let them use for realestate development.

    The old trickle down theory just doesn't work. Corporations don't provide more jobs when they get tax cuts, they just increase their profit margins.

    Crown corporations, Corporate taxes and personal income taxes are what pay for our Social Support Systems. The Liberals sale of our crown corporations and massive tax reductions to Corporations are directly attributable to the mess we're in today.

  • Fiat lux

    2 years ago

    The most efficient economic

    The most efficient economic systems have always been based on the highest degree of self sufficiency, which is also part and parcel of self determination and the practice of real democracy.

    The claim that we can destroy our own production facilities, because we can import products "cheaper" is not only an outright lie, but wasteful, stupid, and criminal.

    There's no such thing as "cheaper", especially with our present imaginary monetary system controlled by a mafia of big business, because the costs must be measured in true economic, which means physical terms.

    The real cost of the garbage we import is being paid out many times over in unnecessary depletion, loss of human rights to make productive living, causing pollution, climate change, garbage disposal problems.

    Hasn't anybody noticed yet that our incredible garbage, environmental, homelessness, and foodbank problems started with "cheap" imports ?

    Now we can't afford decent services, the cost of medical problems is bankrupting us, we're governed by an international gang of thieves and their political pimps.

    So, what have we gained when all we can see are tags with "Made in China" on them?

    Ed Deak.

    Economic systems should work like road systems, where all users, big and small, are permitted to go anywhere they like, provided they follow strict laws, enforced by an independent authority.

  • Skywalker

    2 years ago

    Right Chris.

    Bobby is in some kind of Canwest time-warp. If any leader had pulled the kind of sleezy political stuff that Campbell has pulled they would have been run out of town long ago. Only Canwest propaganda keeps the liberals in power. Comparing the political scene in 1999 with the NDP hostile Canwest media with 2009 and the liberal friendly Canwest media is comparing apples to oranges. But it works for Bobby.

  • Dan the socialist

    2 years ago

    I think too part of the

    I think too part of the problem is politicians don't spend the money they get from taxes properly. I think there is a lot of waste. I think a rich country like Canada should have no problem providing programmes, health care but we also sell to much off.

    We only have 35 million approx but so much natural resources and we are in debt/deficits all across the country, including the feds. Something stinks I think.

    Like natural resources are sold but big companies, many foreign make way more profit than royalty fees they collect from oil, gas, mining etc and I believe all the natural resources should be owned by the government so the profit goes back to the people and maybe then taxes could go down for all. But that is not the 'capitalist' way so I doubt it will happen.

    Look at places like Norway where oil and gas is Nationalized and all the money they have, compared to places like Alberta where they are in deficit...and BC, SK, AB basically give it away, hell Campbell just gave them another break here.

    That is part of the problem, people see these huge corporations getting our resources for next to nothing and they are not happy as they (the people) have to pay more in taxes, when they do not.

  • Bailey

    2 years ago

    Mr. Deak's point about imaginary things

    is very well taken. People keep falling off the argument and landing in a pile of imaginary things.

    Money is not real, just because we need to treat it as if it were. Whatever we use for money, whether it's metal or paper or promises, it exists only as a representative of human effort and the way we apply it to resources.

    Resources, in this context refers to the world, and everything in it, rocks, plants animals, air, water. The works. Even people fit into this definition in an odd way, because our lives and our labor is what transforms things into wealth in the first place. All value is human value.

    When a corporate executive takes a half a billion dollars from a mine and puts it into a Cayman Island bank without ever touching a shovel, that's just a kind of theft. A way of taking imaginary value away from the real value created in the first place by the world itself and whoever created that, and from the people who worked on it to produce the transformation into products with value.

    All who live off percentages are like that. Certainly some organization and services are needed and should be paid for, but our big mistake is in letting one element set the prices for all the elements.

    A corporate executive or a government functionary may provide a necessary service in the grand scheme of things, but the smallest farmer, miner of millhand provides a far more valuable one. And without that service the middlemen who are looting our culture would be back sticking up travellers on the highways again, wouldn't they?

    For a broker to take a thousand or ten thousand times as much as the person who created whatever it is that's being brokered is kind of insane. And I think the actual cause of the larger insanity we seem to be living in.

  • OilbertaRedTory

    2 years ago

    "A buck is a buck"

    Taxation rates tell us who is wealthy. Earned income is taxed at higher rates than un-earned income (capital gains/ interest).

    Are you wealthy? What proportion of your income is earned ; what proportion un-earned.

    http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1ARTA0007884

  • ME2

    2 years ago

    ORTory.

    Tax "unearned income"? Now THERE"S a can of worms!!!

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